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View Full Version : Serena's Serve, Nadal's speed, Roger's Forehand, and Venus' reach......


jrollaneres25
Jun 18th, 2011, 08:33 AM
And Excerpt from Serena's Post Match interview after Winning her 13th Grand Slam Title:

Q. Is there a stroke you wish you could have? If you sat down and said, If only I could have somebody's backhand, forehand, volley, especially when you were growing up?

SERENA WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think if I'd build the perfect game. I'd have Nadal's speed. I'd have like, I don't know, Roger's forehand. I would keep my serve so it can kind of keep it even. Then I don't know. Maybe Venus' reach.


Your Thoughts:drool:

Lord Choc Ice
Jun 18th, 2011, 08:38 AM
:lol: She knows her serve is the shit so of course she'd keep it. ;)

I'd take prime Blake's forehand. :hearts:

Grafbestever
Jun 18th, 2011, 08:49 AM
If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.

bandabou
Jun 18th, 2011, 10:13 AM
nah man...Serena's serve is the BOMB!

jrollaneres25
Jun 18th, 2011, 04:13 PM
:lol: She knows her serve is the shit so of course she'd keep it. ;)

I'd take prime Blake's forehand. :hearts:

Oh Yea!!:bounce: How dare she pick Federer's Forehand over Blake's forehand when it's DEAD ON!:drool:

jrollaneres25
Jun 18th, 2011, 04:15 PM
If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.

Naw, I'm sorry, but Serena's Serve is one of the Best in History PERIOD! Man, Woman, Dog! Is she were in the Men's draw serving like that, she'd be in the Finals for sure.:angel:

jrollaneres25
Jun 18th, 2011, 04:16 PM
nah man...Serena's serve is the BOMB!

:worship:

oomph
Jun 18th, 2011, 05:25 PM
:lol: She knows her serve is the shit so of course she'd keep it. ;)

I'd take prime Blake's forehand. :hearts:

:spit: The most brainless out of the brainless ballbashers over Roger? :lol:

If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.

Not unless he's on.

And Monfils is faster than Rafa.

Grafbestever
Jun 18th, 2011, 05:33 PM
Federers forehand is way better than Blakes. Anyone who watched their matches knows this. Blake does nothing better than Federer except hit the high backhands.

And Monfils is not a better mover on the tennis court than Nadal. He would be in a pure sprint on the track maybe (although that would be very close) but on a tennis court Nadal moves by far better.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:09 PM
I'd take Fernando Gonzales' forehand over all of them, that thing is a beast. And Serena has a better serve than some of the men players especially when it comes to placement and clutchness

Roookie
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:14 PM
player's forum

Tennisstar86
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:14 PM
If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.

I completely disagree with this..... a good serve is a good serve. Serena gets a lot of kick and Angles....

Roddicks is fast but he doesnt get the angles she does. 90 Aces is no joke.....An Ace is an Ace...the woman arent that slow that if a man was on court they wouldnt be able to get a racquet on the ball...

She probably should have said Nadal's movement, and not speed. hes not the fastest....but good foot work....Venus' reach. I don know most of the men arent at net.....neither are the woman so....

Tennisstar86
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:17 PM
I'd take Fernando Gonzales' forehand over all of them, that thing is a beast. And Serena has a better serve than some of the men players especially when it comes to placement and clutchness

exactly, Serena throws down aces when it matters.... break points/ set points/ match points against.... not just when shes on top of her game.

theFutureisNow
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:37 PM
And Excerpt from Serena's Post Match interview after Winning her 13th Grand Slam Title:

SERENA WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think if I'd build the perfect game. I'd have Nadal's speed. I'd have like, I don't know, Roger's forehand. I would keep my serve so it can kind of keep it even. Then I don't know. Maybe Venus' reach.




If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")

The reason 7 footers don't dominate tennis is that they are too slow. If you could do the impossible and make a 7 footer with a shorter players' speed/quickness they would be literally unbeatable.

Novichok
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:48 PM
If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")

The reason 7 footers don't dominate tennis is that they are too slow. If you could do the impossible and make a 7 footer with a shorter players' speed/quickness they would be literally unbeatable.

She wanted to make it at least somewhat fair to the other women if you read her response.

Spring Pools
Jun 18th, 2011, 06:54 PM
I guess if you need to keep it in the women:
First Serve: Serena
Second Serve: Stosur
Forehand: Serena
Backhand: Henin
Netplay: Schiavone
Speed and Footwork: Dementieva

Grafbestever
Jun 18th, 2011, 07:03 PM
If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")

The reason 7 footers don't dominate tennis is that they are too slow. If you could do the impossible and make a 7 footer with a shorter players' speed/quickness they would be literally unbeatable.

Another man couldnt even play against that hypothetical player, so imagine a women. :lol:

jrollaneres25
Jun 18th, 2011, 10:41 PM
I know! :lol:

Potato
Jun 18th, 2011, 10:49 PM
The only thing Serena's serve has over most men's is the clutchness.. I would pick Serena's mental strength over anyone's though :hearts:

Raiden
Jun 18th, 2011, 11:01 PM
If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")No way.

Djokovic has been busy making a mockery of that backhand to the point of Rafito looking as clueless as Stosur on that side.

So I'd go for Djoker's backhand for Serena (or even Murray's Delpo's).

oomph
Jun 19th, 2011, 12:29 AM
Federers forehand is way better than Blakes. Anyone who watched their matches knows this. Blake does nothing better than Federer except hit the high backhands.

And Monfils is not a better mover on the tennis court than Nadal. He would be in a pure sprint on the track maybe (although that would be very close) but on a tennis court Nadal moves by far better.

Your point being?

Weren't we talking about SPEED? :facepalm:

I'd take Fernando Gonzales' forehand over all of them, that thing is a beast.

:facepalm:

I completely disagree with this..... a good serve is a good serve. Serena gets a lot of kick and Angles....

Roddicks is fast but he doesnt get the angles she does. 90 Aces is no joke.....An Ace is an Ace...the woman arent that slow that if a man was on court they wouldnt be able to get a racquet on the ball...

:lol: Even Rafito can serve better than Serena.

Get over it, Serena's serve is more effective than some of the men, but most would own her in serving.

If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")

:spit:

Djokovic and Murray shit on him.

And Federer is not the best returner.

And Isner has a much better 2nd than Karlovic.

The reason 7 footers don't dominate tennis is that they are too slow. If you could do the impossible and make a 7 footer with a shorter players' speed/quickness they would be literally unbeatable.

http://www.nba-blogger.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/magic_dwight-howard_keith-allison.jpg

:cool:

oomph
Jun 19th, 2011, 12:38 AM
No way.

Djokovic has been busy making a mockery of that backhand to the point of Rafito looking as clueless as Stosur on that side.

So I'd go for Djoker's backhand for Serena (or even Murray's Delpo's).

LOOOL, Delpo isn't anything special from BH, Murray is actually BETTER than Djokovic on his backhand.

The only thing Serena's serve has over most men's is the clutchness.. I would pick Serena's mental strength over anyone's though :hearts:

Not hard against those mental midgets. :lol:

I guess if you need to keep it in the women:
First Serve: Serena
Second Serve: Stosur
Forehand: Serena
Backhand: Henin
Netplay: Schiavone
Speed and Footwork: Dementieva

what?

And Henin is every bit as good as Schiavone at the net.

theFutureisNow
Jun 19th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Djokovic and Murray shit on him.

And Federer is not the best returner.

And Isner has a much better 2nd than Karlovic.





I put a question mark because it was a guess. Maybe it's only the best backhand against Federer.

If Federer isn't the best returner, I'd like to know who is. Federer owns the best servers- Roddick, Karlovic, Isner, etc. Are there any aces against and return games won stats out there?

I picked Karlovic over Isner because he has a faster serve and at his peak was getting better ace numbers.

pov
Jun 19th, 2011, 03:57 PM
If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.
Nadal's serve doesn't suck and Serena Williams' serve is better than many ATP players' serves. It's better than Murray's, better than pre-2011 Djokovic's, better than Simon's to name a few.

it-girl
Jun 19th, 2011, 04:56 PM
If you include men then her analogy makes no sense. A perfect player would be something like-

Speed/Court Movement- Nadal or Monfils
Backhand-Nadal?
Forehand-Federer
Return of Serve-Federer
Serve-Karlovic
Reach-Karlovic(6' 10")

The reason 7 footers don't dominate tennis is that they are too slow. If you could do the impossible and make a 7 footer with a shorter players' speed/quickness they would be literally unbeatable.I am not impressed at all with Karlovics reach. He is tall but when him & John Isner lost their doubles match that told me being tall is not enough. You have to also be very effective with your reach which Venus is. With the reach of Karlovic and Isner one would think that they would never lose a doubles match.

But I agree with Nadals speed but I would take Blake's forehand over Feds. When Blake is on his forehand is jaw dropping good:drool:.

kiwifan
Jun 19th, 2011, 05:03 PM
exactly, Serena throws down aces when it matters.... break points/ set points/ match points against.... not just when shes on top of her game.


That's her true greatness. :angel:

Nerves of steel in the clutch trumps every other excellent quality she possesses.


I think all the men would love to have her "swagger" when everything is on the line. :yeah:

Alejandrawrrr
Jun 19th, 2011, 05:13 PM
Ooh, I wanna do this!

Serve - Serena obviously. First and second.
ROS - Serena.
FH - Tough call, maybe Ivanovic back when she was good?
BH - Venus' vintage BHDTL circa 00-03. Otherwise, Sharapova's maybe(What can I say, I was recently rewatching her 08 OZ Open QF :lol:)
Netplay - Either Henin or Mauresmo
Movement - Between Kim and Jaja, but probably Kim.
Mental Toughness - Isn't it obvious?
Beauty - Lena D :inlove:
:worship:

Moveyourfeet
Jun 19th, 2011, 08:31 PM
I loves me some Serena, but let's stop with the :weirdo:

Serena's serve is IMO the greatest serve in the history of the women's game so far, but her serve hardly compares with most male pros.

Graftard
Jun 20th, 2011, 04:33 AM
Nadal's serve doesn't suck and Serena Williams' serve is better than many ATP players' serves. It's better than Murray's, better than pre-2011 Djokovic's, better than Simon's to name a few.

:weirdo:

No one and I mean no one on the WTA tour would ever break Murray's serve. Stupid response.

Serena's serve, as devastating as it is on WTA tour, would be considered powderpuff on ATP.

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 05:35 AM
She was talking wta-tour of course.. and if it was about serve, then stop the nonsense...Pete Sampras.

justineheninfan
Jun 20th, 2011, 05:49 AM
The best game to dream having for a women (or anyone) would be:

Serve- Karlovic, Roddick, or Federer. Best clutch server of current guys is Federer by far.
Return of serve- Djokovic or Murray
Forehand- Federer (or Nadal). ROTFLLL at anyone thinking even prime Blake has the best forehand or the best anything.
Backhand- Djokovic or Murray
Net Play- probably some doubles specialist. Otherwise Federer.
Movement- Nadal or Federer (prime Federer moved best on hard courts and just as well on grass)
Overall defense- Nadal
Mental game- Nadal


Now an even mix of women and men, based strictly on current playing level:

Serve- Serena. There isnt a man with a much better serve than her anyway. Seriously her serve would probably be top 10 on the mens tour if a man had it. And for her gender her serve is much greater among women than any of the current men among men. Her serve is the best ever for a women by far, the best ever for a man is not a current man for sure.

Return of Serve- Li Na. If this was 1-2 years ago then Serena or Dementieva.

Forehand- Federer or Nadal.

Backhand- Li Na. If this was 3-4 years ago Venus or Henin of course.

Movement- Clijsters. Just since I want to use as many women as possible. I wish Serena were fully fit, Venus were younger, or Henin was on tour and at her best, as I think they might move even better and closer to the top men than Kim.

Overall defense- Clijsters

Net play- Federer or Murray. As bad as the current men are here compared to past eras, amongst current women it is even more non existent. Venus has even inexplicably stopped going to net which is stupid considering her age.

Mental game- Nadal or Serena (or Federer when he doesnt play Nadal)



Actually I dont think the 2nd hypothetical player could compete on the mens tour and do fairly well, despite having mostly a womens game.

justineheninfan
Jun 20th, 2011, 05:52 AM
:weirdo:

No one and I mean no one on the WTA tour would ever break Murray's serve. Stupid response.

Serena's serve, as devastating as it is on WTA tour, would be considered powderpuff on ATP.

Ivanisevic did an interview in 1996 when he said players like Rubin were handling his serve easily in the mixed doubles and returning it better than many of the men. Maybe he was just feeling crazy that day though.

JCTennisFan
Jun 20th, 2011, 06:53 AM
Hrmm..... the complete player would be in my opinion (female)
-Jennifer Capriati's Forehand
-Davenport's Backhand
-Stosur's Serve
-Hingis' tactics
-Venus' Volley
-Clijster's footspeed
-Sharapova's focus/determination
-Dementieva's Return of Serve

JCTennisFan
Jun 20th, 2011, 07:02 AM
And on the men's side... hrmm thats a bit hairier topic.

Serve: Sampras (sorry Fed..)
Forehand: Gonzalez (Several times hitting over 100 mph forehand winners when he goto the Aussie Final)
Backhand : Safin
Tactics : Federer
Volley : Sampras
Footspeed : Davydenko
Focus/Determination : Nadal
Return of Serve : Agassi

justineheninfan
Jun 20th, 2011, 07:21 AM
Davydenko is faster than Chang, Hewitt, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and quite a few others. Seriously.

And Edberg is a much better volleyer than Sampras. He couldnt have won about half their matches if he werent.

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 08:26 AM
Hrmm..... the complete player would be in my opinion (female)
-Jennifer Capriati's Forehand
-Davenport's Backhand
-Stosur's Serve
-Hingis' tactics
-Venus' Volley
-Clijster's footspeed
-Sharapova's focus/determination
-Dementieva's Return of Serve

:spit: Nice, nice... no Serena, though? Not even for mental strength? :eek: :unsure:

Stamp Paid
Jun 20th, 2011, 08:49 AM
:spit: Nice, nice... no Serena, though? Not even for mental strength? :eek: :unsure:So so bitter :lol:
But its understandable :cool:

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 09:24 AM
So so bitter :lol:
But its understandable :cool:

What can you do?! ;)

oomph
Jun 20th, 2011, 11:58 AM
The best game to dream having for a women (or anyone) would be:

Serve- Karlovic, Roddick, or Federer. Best clutch server of current guys is Federer by far.
Return of serve- Djokovic or Murray
Forehand- Federer (or Nadal). ROTFLLL at anyone thinking even prime Blake has the best forehand or the best anything.
Backhand- Djokovic or Murray
Net Play- probably some doubles specialist. Otherwise Federer.
Movement- Nadal or Federer (prime Federer moved best on hard courts and just as well on grass)
Overall defense- Nadal
Mental game- Nadal


Now an even mix of women and men, based strictly on current playing level:

Serve- Serena. There isnt a man with a much better serve than her anyway. Seriously her serve would probably be top 10 on the mens tour if a man had it. And for her gender her serve is much greater among women than any of the current men among men. Her serve is the best ever for a women by far, the best ever for a man is not a current man for sure.

Return of Serve- Li Na. If this was 1-2 years ago then Serena or Dementieva.

Forehand- Federer or Nadal.

Backhand- Li Na. If this was 3-4 years ago Venus or Henin of course.

Movement- Clijsters. Just since I want to use as many women as possible. I wish Serena were fully fit, Venus were younger, or Henin was on tour and at her best, as I think they might move even better and closer to the top men than Kim.

Overall defense- Clijsters

Net play- Federer or Murray. As bad as the current men are here compared to past eras, amongst current women it is even more non existent. Venus has even inexplicably stopped going to net which is stupid considering her age.

Mental game- Nadal or Serena (or Federer when he doesnt play Nadal)



Actually I dont think the 2nd hypothetical player could compete on the mens tour and do fairly well, despite having mostly a womens game.

Serena's movement being best. :spit:

She has shitty footwork and can't move on clay. And Federer isn't mentally weak when playing Nadal :facepalm: It's that he has to go for the lines all the time to even win a point.

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 12:24 PM
:lol: Somebody only started watching tennis in '11.

oomph
Jun 20th, 2011, 02:23 PM
:lol: Somebody only started watching tennis in '11.

YQ0_kgoevVk

Sublime footwork right there. :worship:

EDIT: Wait is that an injury?

Hmm, bad example then.

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 02:45 PM
weak, weak...everybody knows and can see Serena was clearly injured this match. Can somebody upload any match of ' 02- ' 03 Serena for this oomph clown?

oomph
Jun 20th, 2011, 04:30 PM
weak, weak...everybody knows and can see Serena was clearly injured this match. Can somebody upload any match of ' 02- ' 03 Serena for this oomph clown?

Fool, do you even know what footwork means? :facepalm:

Being fast doesn't make you have good footwork. I remember JH wrongfooting Serena all the time in RG 03 SF because of her shitty movement on clay. Hell even on grass her movement isn't that good.

God, Serena tards are hilarious I bring up her most obvious weakness everyone agrees upon and he gets mad. :lol:















http://www.buzzardblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pacifier.jpg

:kiss:

bandabou
Jun 20th, 2011, 05:29 PM
Fool, do you even know what footwork means? :facepalm:

Being fast doesn't make you have good footwork. I remember JH wrongfooting Serena all the time in RG 03 SF because of her shitty movement on clay. Hell even on grass her movement isn't that good.

God, Serena tards are hilarious I bring up her most obvious weakness everyone agrees upon and he gets mad. :lol:















http://www.buzzardblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/pacifier.jpg

:kiss:

Fool? :fiery: Even if you meant footwork this was the wrong match to pick..because Serena was clearly injured..no footwork, no movement..nada. Sooo..:wavey:

And even then: Serena might not be ms footwork, but you picking Kim as the best ever?! :lol:

justineheninfan
Jun 20th, 2011, 09:50 PM
Best ever in movement and footwork is Steffi Graf clearly, with Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, and prime Venus coming closest. Seles was never one of the best movers but actually had great footwork. Serena at her best has great movement but not so great footwork.

tennisbum79
Jun 20th, 2011, 10:21 PM
I'd take Fernando Gonzales' forehand over all of them, that thing is a beast. And Serena has a better serve than some of the men players especially when it comes to placement and clutchness
I remember Serena being really impressed by t Gonzales forehand during AO and was mauling over copying it.

serenafan08
Jun 21st, 2011, 12:38 AM
Serve - Serena...'nuff said
Groundstrokes - Lindsay Davenport...when she was set up her strokes were heavy and deep with plenty of pace, not to mention just gorgeous :hearts:
Volley - Henin...I have always loved her technique and instincts up there
Movement - Venus...for someone 6-1 she moves like a gazelle
Mentality - Serena...no one has escaped defeat more than her
Tactics - Hingis...knew how to play the game, whether you loved or hated her

jrollaneres25
Jun 21st, 2011, 03:49 AM
That's her true greatness. :angel:

Nerves of steel in the clutch trumps every other excellent quality she possesses.


I think all the men would love to have her "swagger" when everything is on the line. :yeah:

:worship::angel:

jrollaneres25
Jun 21st, 2011, 03:53 AM
:weirdo:

No one and I mean no one on the WTA tour would ever break Murray's serve. Stupid response.

Serena's serve, as devastating as it is on WTA tour, would be considered powderpuff on ATP.

Ha!:lol:

Djokovic, Hewitt, and Malisee(Just to name a few) would beg to differ:worship:

jrollaneres25
Jun 21st, 2011, 04:56 AM
Hrmm..... the complete player would be in my opinion (female)
-Jennifer Capriati's Forehand
-Davenport's Backhand
-Stosur's Serve
-Hingis' tactics
-Venus' Volley
-Clijster's footspeed
-Sharapova's focus/determination
-Dementieva's Return of Serve

And this player would get beat by Serena in all aspects except maybe Venus' volley:lol:

justineheninfan
Jun 21st, 2011, 04:58 AM
Jennifer did manage to go 3 sets with Serena in almost every match she lost in addition to winning 7 of their 17 matches. So I imagine she is competitive with Serena in some areas considering Serenas serving blows Jennifers away which is already a huge edge. Then again maybe she was just a bad matchup for Serena as Jennifers success vs Serena is not really in keeping with her succes (or lack thereof) vs most of the top players even in her prime years.

jrollaneres25
Jun 21st, 2011, 05:04 AM
Hrmm..... the complete player would be in my opinion (female)
-Jennifer Capriati's Forehand
-Davenport's Backhand
-Stosur's Serve
-Hingis' tactics
-Venus' Volley
-Clijster's footspeed
-Sharapova's focus/determination
-Dementieva's Return of Serve

And this player would get beat by Serena in all aspects except maybe Venus' volley:lol:

spencercarlos
Jun 21st, 2011, 05:21 AM
Best ever in movement and footwork is Steffi Graf clearly, with Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, and prime Venus coming closest. Seles was never one of the best movers but actually had great footwork. Serena at her best has great movement but not so great footwork.
:facepalm: about the Selesīs comment.

Seles never had great movement, neither great footwork. She had a great anticipation which is quite different.

Serena of 2002 was ridiculously quick, even quicker than Graf or Navratilova at their respective peaks.

justineheninfan
Jun 21st, 2011, 05:35 AM
Tracy Austin, Martina Navratilova, and Pam Shriver all commented on Seles having great footwork even after the stabbing when she was fat and slow. And she did, she was always taking little steps split second (when she was in position to hit the ball) to set up in perfect position for the ball. Their opinions >>> spencercarlos.

moby
Jun 21st, 2011, 07:27 AM
Jennifer did manage to go 3 sets with Serena in almost every match she lost in addition to winning 7 of their 17 matches. So I imagine she is competitive with Serena in some areas considering Serenas serving blows Jennifers away which is already a huge edge. Then again maybe she was just a bad matchup for Serena as Jennifers success vs Serena is not really in keeping with her succes (or lack thereof) vs most of the top players even in her prime years.Serena had a mental block against Jenn, possibly due to that run of losses in big matches in 2001.

The one player who would make even peak Serena choke and freeze up, even though Serena usually came through in those matches in the end.

jrollaneres25
Jun 21st, 2011, 07:53 AM
Serena had a mental block against Jenn, possibly due to that run of losses in big matches in 2001.

The one player who would make even peak Serena choke and freeze up, even though Serena usually came through in those matches in the end.

Yea, on that. Serena Post Sharapova 2005 would kill Jenn everytime in a tennis match:lol:

bandabou
Jun 21st, 2011, 08:12 AM
Serena's only true rival, apart from Venus. Only player who managed to get into Serena's head, albeit for just a sec. Then Jen made a huge mistake: started talking to and about Serena. Not a smart thing to do..because nobody enjoys personal challenges like Serena does.

That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she finally learned to beat Capriati in a big match.

Miami '02 HAD to happen: beating Venus, Jen in the same tournament..the rest is history.

justineheninfan
Jun 21st, 2011, 09:23 AM
It is too bad Capriati did not have the same deterination and focus in her earlier years as she finally acquired in the early 2000s. Imagine the career she might have had otherwise. I think losing the 91 U.S Open semifinal vs Seles set her career back for many years to come.

bandabou
Jun 21st, 2011, 10:02 AM
Indeed...her career should/ could've been much better. But this true for Seles too.

Raiden
Jun 21st, 2011, 12:02 PM
Best ever in movement and footwork is Steffi Graf clearly...... Seles was never one of the best movers but actually had great footwork. Serena at her best has great movement but not so great footwork.LMAO!

jrollaneres25
Jun 22nd, 2011, 12:13 AM
Indeed...her career should/ could've been much better. But this true for Seles too.

Yes very unfortunate for Seles. They made a comparison between Serena and Seles today in her Post-match conference:angel:

vixter
Jun 22nd, 2011, 12:26 AM
Serena had a mental block against Jenn, possibly due to that run of losses in big matches in 2001.

The one player who would make even peak Serena choke and freeze up, even though Serena usually came through in those matches in the end.

True, but it my opinion this mental block was only for one match, the Wimbledon QF of 2001. Arguments can be made for the Roland Garros QF from this year as well, but Jennifer was more consistant in this match and she was also the eventual champion.

The Wimbledon match was a match that Serena owned, but couldn't close it out.

Then at the Canadian Open she defeated Jennifer in the final, showing strong mental toughness, and never lost to her again.

LDVTennis
Jun 22nd, 2011, 12:39 AM
Serena of 2002 was ridiculously quick, even quicker than Graf or Navratilova at their respective peaks.

:facepalm:

Yeah, right!

gc-spurs
Jun 22nd, 2011, 12:45 AM
Maria's CGI hair
Venus's bottom portion
Jankovic's middle portion
Serena's nails
Ana's smile


http://www.nba-blogger.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/magic_dwight-howard_keith-allison.jpg

:cool:

Not unstoppable. No rings. :cool:

oomph
Jun 22nd, 2011, 01:16 AM
Not unstoppable. No rings. :cool:

I meant on the tennis court. :lol:

And this player would get beat by Serena in all aspects except maybe Venus' volley:lol:

Yea, on that. Serena Post Sharapova 2005 would kill Jenn everytime in a tennis match:lol:

Serena's only true rival, apart from Venus. Only player who managed to get into Serena's head, albeit for just a sec. Then Jen made a huge mistake: started talking to and about Serena. Not a smart thing to do..because nobody enjoys personal challenges like Serena does.

That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she finally learned to beat Capriati in a big match.

Miami '02 HAD to happen: beating Venus, Jen in the same tournament..the rest is history.

You mean the one who got pwned by Henin in 3 GS tournements in a year? (the only one where she didn't get mauled by her she didn't participate)

You guys need to get off her nuts.

Certinfy
Jun 22nd, 2011, 01:25 AM
Nadal's speed? Murray and Monfils are faster. :shrug:

MrSerenaWilliams
Jun 22nd, 2011, 01:29 AM
True, but it my opinion this mental block was only for one match, the Wimbledon QF of 2001. Arguments can be made for the Roland Garros QF from this year as well, but Jennifer was more consistant in this match and she was also the eventual champion.

The Wimbledon match was a match that Serena owned, but couldn't close it out.

Then at the Canadian Open she defeated Jennifer in the final, showing strong mental toughness, and never lost to her again.

:sobbing: if only that were true.

She lost to her 3 times in 2004 (2 of which, I believe, cost her majors) :sobbing:

BuTtErFrEnA
Jun 22nd, 2011, 01:31 AM
:rolleyes:

gc-spurs
Jun 22nd, 2011, 02:08 AM
I meant on the tennis court. :lol:



Oh. Then fuck me, that shit would be mindblowing!!! :eek::eek:

Alejandrawrrr
Jun 22nd, 2011, 02:12 AM
I meant on the tennis court. :lol:







You mean the one who got pwned by Henin in 3 GS tournements in a year? (the only one where she didn't get mauled by her she didn't participate)

You guys need to get off her nuts.

:lol: Are you really gonna try that?

TennisGrandSlam
Jun 22nd, 2011, 04:37 AM
Fedal + Williams = No one can win

jrollaneres25
Jun 22nd, 2011, 05:33 AM
Fedal + Williams = No one can win

I dunno, Djokovic is pretty fierce;)

bandabou
Jun 22nd, 2011, 05:53 AM
I meant on the tennis court. :lol:







You mean the one who got pwned by Henin in 3 GS tournements in a year? (the only one where she didn't get mauled by her she didn't participate)

You guys need to get off her nuts.

:lol: Mennn...who's this guy?! Justine was pretty good that year, better than Serena...it happens sometimes. Heck, even Graf had her spell where she couldn't beat Sabatini, no?! :shrug:

But really their h2h says it all: when they both were playing well and healthy..there wasn't much rivalry. Juju wins on clay, Serena wins on the other surfaces.

With Jen? NO match was certain for Serena..had to put in the work.

Grafbestever
Jun 22nd, 2011, 06:11 AM
Henin only trails Serena 8-6 and leads her 4-3 in slams. At Serena's 02-03 peak Henin beat her 3 times, nobody else beat her more than once. Only a retard would say she wasnt a serious rival, she was the biggest one really. Much moreso than Venus who mostly bows down and kisses ass to loving little sis Serena in big matches.

And as for this clay thing, does clay not count now, we should wire that info to Nadal and Federer did, since does that ever put a new spin on their rivalry. The most irrelevant surface today is not clay, but grass, there is a dinky one month season devoted to the surface for both men and women, with no Masters or Premier events. Heck they have already ripped up the grass and replaced with rye grass, dont be shocked if Wimbledon moves to hard courts in the next decade or so the way things are going. Justine dominated Serena on clay the way no other player dominated Serena on any surface, and in one year beat her in a slam quarterfinal on every surface. She is a big rival period.

Hingis was also a real rival to Serena. Their head to head is almost tied. I know what is coming next from some of the Serena fans in this thread. Oh Hingis didnt beat Serena 2002 onwards, how could she when other then 2 matches in 2002 itself they never played again since Hingis retired. Cherry picking surfaces and prime years is pointless. If one wants to do that one could say Serena would have a losing head to head with Henin if they had played any matches from 2004-2006 when Henin was also the better player, or that she would have a losing head to head with Hingis if they ever played matches on clay.

Venus, Capriati, Henin, and Hingis are all rivals to Serena. From biggest to least I would say:

1. Henin
2. Capriati
3. Hingis
4. Venus

jrollaneres25
Jun 22nd, 2011, 06:39 AM
Henin only trails Serena 8-6 and leads her 4-3 in slams. At Serena's 02-03 peak Henin beat her 3 times, nobody else beat her more than once. Only a retard would say she wasnt a serious rival, she was the biggest one really. Much moreso than Venus who mostly bows down and kisses ass to loving little sis Serena in big matches.



Venus, Capriati, Henin, and Hingis are all rivals to Serena. From biggest to least I would say:

1. Henin
2. Capriati
3. Hingis
4. Venus

And trust that's the only reason Venus has the record she has against Serena. Cuz if Serena were not her sister, it would be ON! Venus plays no games when determined:fiery:

Grafbestever
Jun 22nd, 2011, 06:42 AM
I agree, Venus is an awesome player. And gamewise the one with the most to hurt Serena with of anyone. If Serena werent her sister I think both would have 11 slams or so now rather than 13-7 (and both would have even more without all their injuries and the sisters death but that is another topic).

Capriati I admire only since I think she really got the most out of her abilities. I know she was the biggest 13-15 year old phenom ever but it turned out even once she matured her game wasnt all that amazing for a top player. Some just mature quicker, and I guess that was the case for her. All the wasted years aside she really competed like a bulldog in her prime years and got the most out of herself. She had no business beating Serena almost half their matches that is for sure, so kudos to her for that.

bandabou
Jun 22nd, 2011, 08:13 AM
Henin only trails Serena 8-6 and leads her 4-3 in slams. At Serena's 02-03 peak Henin beat her 3 times, nobody else beat her more than once. Only a retard would say she wasnt a serious rival, she was the biggest one really. Much moreso than Venus who mostly bows down and kisses ass to loving little sis Serena in big matches.

And as for this clay thing, does clay not count now, we should wire that info to Nadal and Federer did, since does that ever put a new spin on their rivalry. The most irrelevant surface today is not clay, but grass, there is a dinky one month season devoted to the surface for both men and women, with no Masters or Premier events. Heck they have already ripped up the grass and replaced with rye grass, dont be shocked if Wimbledon moves to hard courts in the next decade or so the way things are going. Justine dominated Serena on clay the way no other player dominated Serena on any surface, and in one year beat her in a slam quarterfinal on every surface. She is a big rival period.

Hingis was also a real rival to Serena. Their head to head is almost tied. I know what is coming next from some of the Serena fans in this thread. Oh Hingis didnt beat Serena 2002 onwards, how could she when other then 2 matches in 2002 itself they never played again since Hingis retired. Cherry picking surfaces and prime years is pointless. If one wants to do that one could say Serena would have a losing head to head with Henin if they had played any matches from 2004-2006 when Henin was also the better player, or that she would have a losing head to head with Hingis if they ever played matches on clay.

Venus, Capriati, Henin, and Hingis are all rivals to Serena. From biggest to least I would say:

1. Henin
2. Capriati
3. Hingis
4. Venus

The Federer-Nadal logic doesn't go...because Nadal CAN and HAS beaten Federer on EVERY surface even when Federer was playing well. Serena vs Henin? The only two times Henin beat Serena on non-clay were when Serena was injured and just returning from injury. It's fact, no?! :shrug:

Not dismissing clay as a surface..it's just that the outcome of their matches were determined mostly by the surface. With Serena vs Jen? The surface didn't matter..'cause Jennifer was a thorn for Serena on ANY surface.

When I say Jennifer is Serena's biggest rival it's because Serena COULDN'T beat Jen in big matches. It isn't until she learned how to beat Jen in the big matches, that Serena become the legend she is now.

Doesn't mean that the other players aren't worthy rivals.

Grafbestever
Jun 22nd, 2011, 06:26 PM
Jennifer was lucky to be at her peak in 2001 when Serena was still immature mentally at that point. I saw Jennifer's 2001 wins and they were mostly bizarre in nature. I thnk Serena was the better tennis player even in 2001, she just mentally was weak back then, and mostly had success vs top players like Davenport who also could be mentally weak. 2002-2003 Serena didnt lose a single match to Jennifer (or Venus), and they played a heck of alot. I prefer to think of a biggest rival as someone who beat Serena at her best multiple times, even if it was only on clay, that is alot better than on nothing.

Henin and Serena only played 2 matches on hard courts from 2003-2007 when Henin was in her prime. Henin won one easily ,and returning from a 2 month injury is nothing for Serena given her history btw so a pointless asterix, and the other she was dominating 6-0, 5-4, serving for it and choked. There isnt much to tell how they compare in their primes since they didnt play in their mutual primes much. It is hard to know what Serena's prime even is since 2002-2003 was by far her best and she never came close to that level again despite all the other years she played strong tennis and won slams. Henin and Serena didnt even play a match for 4 years though, so there is only limited information to draw conclusion from. What does exist shows Henin was a very tough opponent for Serena on the whole though.

serenafan08
Jun 22nd, 2011, 07:26 PM
Serena's only true rival, apart from Venus. Only player who managed to get into Serena's head, albeit for just a sec. Then Jen made a huge mistake: started talking to and about Serena. Not a smart thing to do..because nobody enjoys personal challenges like Serena does.

That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she finally learned to beat Capriati in a big match.

Miami '02 HAD to happen: beating Venus, Jen in the same tournament..the rest is history.

Totally changed the game - and she beat them without losing a set. She beat Hingis in straights too (a bagel in the 2nd :drool: ). Jennifer was Serena's greatest rival, followed by Justine. If Jennifer was still healthy that would have been the rivalry of this generation, without question.

bandabou
Jun 23rd, 2011, 08:27 PM
Jennifer was lucky to be at her peak in 2001 when Serena was still immature mentally at that point. I saw Jennifer's 2001 wins and they were mostly bizarre in nature. I thnk Serena was the better tennis player even in 2001, she just mentally was weak back then, and mostly had success vs top players like Davenport who also could be mentally weak. 2002-2003 Serena didnt lose a single match to Jennifer (or Venus), and they played a heck of alot. I prefer to think of a biggest rival as someone who beat Serena at her best multiple times, even if it was only on clay, that is alot better than on nothing.

Henin and Serena only played 2 matches on hard courts from 2003-2007 when Henin was in her prime. Henin won one easily ,and returning from a 2 month injury is nothing for Serena given her history btw so a pointless asterix, and the other she was dominating 6-0, 5-4, serving for it and choked. There isnt much to tell how they compare in their primes since they didnt play in their mutual primes much. It is hard to know what Serena's prime even is since 2002-2003 was by far her best and she never came close to that level again despite all the other years she played strong tennis and won slams. Henin and Serena didnt even play a match for 4 years though, so there is only limited information to draw conclusion from. What does exist shows Henin was a very tough opponent for Serena on the whole though.

Fair enough.. but then again even a non-prime Serena managed to beat Juju on HC's in her best year, so that says a lot too. Serena rallying from defeat? What else is new?! :lol:

bandabou
Jun 23rd, 2011, 08:31 PM
Totally changed the game - and she beat them without losing a set. She beat Hingis in straights too (a bagel in the 2nd :drool: ). Jennifer was Serena's greatest rival, followed by Justine. If Jennifer was still healthy that would have been the rivalry of this generation, without question.

Indeed...she made Serena understand that half-hearted was gonna cut it. 100 % effort and concentration.

oomph
Jun 23rd, 2011, 08:44 PM
The Federer-Nadal logic doesn't go...because Nadal CAN and HAS beaten Federer on EVERY surface even when Federer was playing well. Serena vs Henin? The only two times Henin beat Serena on non-clay were when Serena was injured and just returning from injury. It's fact, no?! :shrug:

Federer never lost to him indoors or fast HC. Wimbledon 08 was 1 month after RG 08. Can't really say he was playing well when it's his worst mono year.

And lol at Henin not being able to beat Serena "when playing well". You guys remind me of Nadull tards who either wins or he was injured/tired.

Henin was more than a match for Serena, get over it.

bandabou
Jun 23rd, 2011, 08:55 PM
Federer never lost to him indoors or fast HC. Wimbledon 08 was 1 month after RG 08. Can't really say he was playing well when it's his worst mono year.

And lol at Henin not being able to beat Serena "when playing well". You guys remind me of Nadull tards who either wins or he was injured/tired.

Henin was more than a match for Serena, get over it.

Ah the mono..how could we forget. :lol:

Nadal's titles suggest he's a beast on clay and semi-respectable on hc's. He CAN be beaten on HC's by anybody.
Not so much by Serena. Specially in the Serena vs Henin rivalry..but hey it's cool. Henin won them and once Serena stepped on the court, no problemos.

Certinfy
Jun 23rd, 2011, 10:34 PM
Fedal + Williams = No one can win
Karlovic + Any decent player and I'm sure you'll be wrong ;)

oomph
Jun 23rd, 2011, 11:15 PM
Ah the mono..how could we forget. :lol:

Nadal's titles suggest he's a beast on clay and semi-respectable on hc's. He CAN be beaten on HC's by anybody.
Not so much by Serena. Specially in the Serena vs Henin rivalry..but hey it's cool. Henin won them and once Serena stepped on the court, no problemos.

What?

Didn't Henin send both Venus and Serena home in straights at USO 07? :confused:

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:02 AM
Fair enough.. but then again even a non-prime Serena managed to beat Juju on HC's in her best year, so that says a lot too. Serena rallying from defeat? What else is new?! :lol:

Of course Serena > Henin overall but Serena > Capriati, Venus, and everyone else from her era overall too. I just dont see how Capriati was a tougher opponent. Capriati lucked out to get most of her wins against a mentally immature Serena. Henin was even more in the developmental stages at that point, and wasnt strong enough physically or mentally then, so couldnt take advantage of Serena like a peak Jennifer did.

I hope you arent implying Capriati is a better player than Henin. Henin owned Capriati even when she was a youngster and Capriati was at her best. Heck even on grass, Henin's worst surface by far, a baby Henin beat Capriati in her dream draw in the semis. Jennifer's only 2 wins ever were one when Henin retired with injury in the 3rd set, and one 3 set win on hard courts, neither over prime Henin. Not to mention one won 7 slams and was a dominant player for awhile, the other won 3 slams and was never a dominant player, and never even made a Wimbledon or U.S Open final.

serenafan08
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:03 AM
Federer never lost to him indoors or fast HC. Wimbledon 08 was 1 month after RG 08. Can't really say he was playing well when it's his worst mono year.

And lol at Henin not being able to beat Serena "when playing well". You guys remind me of Nadull tards who either wins or he was injured/tired.

Henin was more than a match for Serena, get over it.

Serena won the most important match between them...that's all that matters in my mind. ;)

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:07 AM
Totally changed the game - and she beat them without losing a set. She beat Hingis in straights too (a bagel in the 2nd :drool: ). Jennifer was Serena's greatest rival, followed by Justine. If Jennifer was still healthy that would have been the rivalry of this generation, without question.

Jennifer is a tough opponent for Serena but she is owned by nearly all the top players of the 2000s. Davenport is 10-3 against her, Henin is 5-2, Clijsters is 3-3 but won their last 3 in a row and choked in most of the losses, Venus is 4-0, Mauresmo is 7-3. How could they be the biggest rivalry when most of their meetings were going to be quarterfinals. And if they were in opposite halves in slams they would never play since Jennifer was not going to be playing in slam finals again after her one dream year. Most of Jennifer's good years both in the early 90s and early 2000s she was about the 7th best player in the World. Jennifer was owned by nearly all the top players except Serena, and even those times she might have beaten Serena would not win the whole tournament since these others would be waiting to beat her (or even weaker ones like Myskina and Dementieva in 2004 slams after beating Serena).

One thing I am sure of is that even if Capriati had stayed healthy she was never winning another slam again after the 2002 Australian. That plus she was never going to get back into the top 4 again. There were too many people better than her until the womens game fell apart starting in 08-09, but by then she would be too old anyway. The only reason she was competitive with Serena is she got in Serena's head somehow. Stroke wise and even less athletic wise she didnt match Serena at all.

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:14 AM
Not to mention Serena did nothing in 2005 and 2006 after the 2005 Australian Open. She wasnt even on tour most of the time, and the slams she did play you didnt even notice she was there. So how would she and Capriati have had any rivalry those years. Then in 2007 Henin was the dominant player and would most times just eliminate whoever came upon her, and there was also Venus and Sharapova, and Capriati would have been turning 31 that year. The Serena-Capriati rivalry had already hit its best stages when Capriati left the tour.

oomph
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:48 AM
Wasn't peak Capriati as athletic as anyone? And I'm sure that technically, her strokes were > Serena.

serenafan08
Jun 24th, 2011, 12:57 AM
Jennifer is a tough opponent for Serena but she is owned by nearly all the top players of the 2000s. Davenport is 10-3 against her, Henin is 5-2, Clijsters is 3-3 but won their last 3 in a row and choked in most of the losses, Venus is 4-0, Mauresmo is 7-3. How could they be the biggest rivalry when most of their meetings were going to be quarterfinals. And if they were in opposite halves in slams they would never play since Jennifer was not going to be playing in slam finals again after her one dream year. Most of Jennifer's good years both in the early 90s and early 2000s she was about the 7th best player in the World. Jennifer was owned by nearly all the top players except Serena, and even those times she might have beaten Serena would not win the whole tournament since these others would be waiting to beat her (or even weaker ones like Myskina and Dementieva in 2004 slams after beating Serena).

One thing I am sure of is that even if Capriati had stayed healthy she was never winning another slam again after the 2002 Australian. That plus she was never going to get back into the top 4 again. There were too many people better than her until the womens game fell apart starting in 08-09, but by then she would be too old anyway. The only reason she was competitive with Serena is she got in Serena's head somehow. Stroke wise and even less athletic wise she didnt match Serena at all.

Well...it was more a mental thing with Jennifer and Serena. You hit it right on the nail - Jennifer was in Serena's head in 2000-2001; she beat her 4 straight times, all in big matches. Once Serena finally got over the hump in Toronto in 2001, that was the end of it - then it was Serena who was in Jennifer's head. They hated losing to each other; you could see the intensity on their faces when they played. It was always hard for Serena to put Jennifer away. Would Jennifer be competitive nowadays? I think she would because most of these girls are headcases. Then again, Jennifer was a headcase herself. :lol: One thing is for sure...girls can choke against each other, but they always get up when they play a Williams. Serena and Venus manage to bring out the best in everyone. In terms of Serena's other rivals, Justine and Serena really didn't "brew" until after the French in '03. Serena and Sharapova haven't really developed a rivalry because Serena didn't let it become one. Sharapova hasn't won a match against Serena in 7 years, and has only won 3 sets in that span. Dementieva and Serena played some great matches in 2009, and Dementieva is one of the few players to beat Serena 3 straight times. Maybe that could have been the next great rivalry in the sport had Elena stayed around longer. Serena's record is too good against most of the field for anyone to be considered a "rival." Most of her "rivals" are either retired or left the game. Guess they couldn't keep up physically.

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 01:01 AM
Wasn't peak Capriati as athletic as anyone? And I'm sure that technically, her strokes were > Serena.

How would Capriati be as athletic as Serena when both were at their best. Serena was physically stronger, much faster, could leap higher, was more flexible. Capriati was fitter and maybe had better balance, that is about it. She was very fast and strong too, but less so than Serena. Overall I would say Henin, Clijsters, and Venus were more athletic than Capriati too. Venus was the most overall athletic of all of those at their best probably.

As for strokes Serena had more power off every shot, even the forehand. Her serve and backhand are on another planet, only the forehand is close. She hit better angles. Her placements and shotmaking was much better. Capriati hit the ball very hard and cleanly but mostly hit up the centre of the court and had a hard time creating anything. Look at Capriati's winners tallies vs the top players, she had a hard time hitting winners vs any of them because she wasnt creating much.

The two players cant compare in quality of players. Capriati was weaker than all the major top players of her era, so overachieved to push Serena as much as she could. In any case I cant see this big rivalry even if they stayed competitive with each other longer since to me a big rivalry has to be one where they are 2 of the 3 best and are deciding big titles. For the most part Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova (would have been), Venus, Davenport, even Mauresmo, were all better than Capriati, the one exception is 2001. So how could Serena-Capriati be an amazing rivalry if after the 2002 French it was nothing more than a warmup act. All Capriati could be is a spoiler for Serena, it would not be matches that would decide the champion if Capriati won though as she wasnt capable of winning slams once Serena, Clijsters, and Henin all improved. If they had a series of good matches in the quarterfinals of events, and Capriati always lost in the semis each time she won as most of the top players she does even worse against than Serena, it doesnt seem like the biggest or most important rivalry in the game.

oomph
Jun 24th, 2011, 01:12 AM
When I say technique I actually just mean clean striking. ;)

And I coulda sworn that Jen close in speed.

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 01:16 AM
OK then I see your point but overall Serena is still much better player. I agree Jennifer hits the ball atleast as clean but definitely not better as far as effectiveness (vs anyone but each other perhaps). Jennifer might be close in speed to peak Serena but she isnt better for sure.

jrollaneres25
Jun 24th, 2011, 05:00 AM
When I say technique I actually just mean clean striking. ;)

And I coulda sworn that Jen close in speed.

Yea Jen was pretty fast

Bonfire
Jun 24th, 2011, 05:30 AM
How would Capriati be as athletic as Serena when both were at their best. Serena was physically stronger, much faster, could leap higher, was more flexible. Capriati was fitter and maybe had better balance, that is about it. She was very fast and strong too, but less so than Serena. Overall I would say Henin, Clijsters, and Venus were more athletic than Capriati too. Venus was the most overall athletic of all of those at their best probably.

As for strokes Serena had more power off every shot, even the forehand. Her serve and backhand are on another planet, only the forehand is close. She hit better angles. Her placements and shotmaking was much better. Capriati hit the ball very hard and cleanly but mostly hit up the centre of the court and had a hard time creating anything. Look at Capriati's winners tallies vs the top players, she had a hard time hitting winners vs any of them because she wasnt creating much.

The two players cant compare in quality of players. Capriati was weaker than all the major top players of her era, so overachieved to push Serena as much as she could. In any case I cant see this big rivalry even if they stayed competitive with each other longer since to me a big rivalry has to be one where they are 2 of the 3 best and are deciding big titles. For the most part Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova (would have been), Venus, Davenport, even Mauresmo, were all better than Capriati, the one exception is 2001. So how could Serena-Capriati be an amazing rivalry if after the 2002 French it was nothing more than a warmup act. All Capriati could be is a spoiler for Serena, it would not be matches that would decide the champion if Capriati won though as she wasnt capable of winning slams once Serena, Clijsters, and Henin all improved. If they had a series of good matches in the quarterfinals of events, and Capriati always lost in the semis each time she won as most of the top players she does even worse against than Serena, it doesnt seem like the biggest or most important rivalry in the game.

This is the way I see it...

Please don't forget that Capriati was still playing really good grand slam tennis right before she was forced into retirement.
She played amazing at 2003 U.S. Open semi vs. Justine and if Capriati hadn't choked and started hitting the ball passively every time she got two points away from the win...she probably would have been in the U.S. Open final against Kim who was a shaky mess in slams for years before winning one.
And 2004 semi vs Myskina was more of a case of Jen having a bad day honestly. It was far from peak Capriati.

She also would have had a great shot at beating Kuzzy in 04 final had she not just barely been beaten by Dementieva in a third set tiebreak in semi. You act like Jen had absolutely no chance to win another slam after AO 02 but that's just not true. And I believe her chances would have been quite good in 2005 and 2006 to win at least one slam had she stayed healthy.

Anyone who actually watched all of Jen and Serena's matches during that time would understand why it could be considered one of the great rivalries. I would go into detail but I already said alot just about the grand slam issue and I could ramble on about that.

OH one more thing. I'm not saying that Jen was the best of her time but also don't forget that Jen's career was stalled for years and it took her awhile to find her best. Who knows what her legacy could have finished like if she would have just kept on playing throughout her teen years and early 20s with no burn out. As it were...her career was like watching a champion get to play her first couple of years as an up and coming top player and then nothing until picking up where her veteran years would start. It's hardly fair to be so harsh about a players ability knowing that there is that asterisk beside her career.

Jen at her best was a superb player who could move and hit the ball hard and deep like Serena. She never had Serena's serve...but who did? She should be thought of and respected as top class competitor of Serena, not talked about as some over rated hack who just got into Serena's head. Remember, there is a reason she was in Serena's head. She knew how dangerous on the court she could be for starters.

Grafbestever
Jun 24th, 2011, 05:59 AM
This is the way I see it...

Please don't forget that Capriati was still playing really good grand slam tennis right before she was forced into retirement.

It is all relative. After the 2002 Australian Open she won only 1 tournament the rest of her career. She was going down, not up, at the point of her forced retirement, and while she was still a contender it was a slightly reduced one all the time. A slam title in the future was not likely for her at that point IMHO when she wasnt even winning tournament anymore, and was only getting older (already 28 at the end of 2004). It is not like she could wait for the field to get weaker, 2005-2007 was alot stronger than 2004, and she would be a tennis granny by 2008.


She played amazing at 2003 U.S. Open semi vs. Justine and if Capriati hadn't choked and started hitting the ball passively every time she got two points away from the win...she probably would have been in the U.S. Open final against Kim who was a shaky mess in slams for years before winning one. And 2004 semi vs Myskina was more of a case of Jen having a bad day honestly. It was far from peak Capriati.

Jennifers win over Serena at the 2004 French was an ugly match by both. It was nowhere near the quality of their 2002 match. I never expected Jennifer to win the French based on that performance, and was not at all surprised Myskina drubbed her. Jennifer didnt play any differently vs Myskina than she did vs Serena which wasnt particularly good anyway. Myskina was playing much more consistent and solid than anyone at that years French, apart from Dementieva who choked in the final.

I agree on the 2003 U.S Open match. However Venus and Serena were out, which is already a huge break for Jennifer and all the rest. Jennifer given this opportunity played out of her skin, one of her best matches ever. Yet Justine cramping and facing adversity still found a way to beat her, even if only through superior nerve. So in the big picture I dont see how she was unlucky at all, she deserves credit for being part of a classic but no more than that. Jennifer went a combined 2-11 vs Serena, Venus, Henin, Clijsters, Davenport, and Mauresmo in 2003. Her 2 wins were via injury retirement by Mauresmo and Davenport both in New Haven, so not even complete matches vs a healthy opponent. Given that winning a slam in 2003 would have been an anomaly of sorts, although I wouldnt have begrudged her one had she won the U.S Open given how she played that semifinal, but she didnt so it is moot.


She also would have had a great shot at beating Kuzzy in 04 final had she not just barely been beaten by Dementieva in a third set tiebreak in semi.

I highly doubt that. Despite that the match went to a 3rd set tiebreak Dementieva totally outhit her in that semifinal. The winners ratio was 40-11 or something like that. Which already shows Capriati was past her prime since in 2000-2003 this would have never happened. Kuznetsova in the final was on fire and made Dementieva look like an amateur. I cant see Capriati beating Kuznetsova in that final unless she got the crowd into it and they threw Kuznetsova off mentally or something.


You act like Jen had absolutely no chance to win another slam after AO 02 but that's just not true. And I believe her chances would have been quite good in 2005 and 2006 to win at least one slam had she stayed healthy.

Whether or not she had chances she didnt even reach a final. And she won only 1 tournament. That is what we know. After the 2002 Australian Open she was only about the 7th best player in the World the remainder of her playing career. That much we also know. And she was only getting older, and appeared to be gradually sliding backwards.

How would she win a slam in 2005 and 2006. Look at the actual winners:

2005 Australian Open- Serena. Lindsay and Maria also playing great tennis.
2005 French- Henin on clay was the winner. No chance for Jen.
2005 Wimbledon- Venus. Lindsay and Venus both on fire. Maria also playing great. Forget it, Jennifer never had a real chance at Wimbledon anyway.
2005 U.S Open- Clijsters on fire. Sharapova and Venus playing some great tennis here too.
2006 Australian Open- Mauresmo the winner. Remember Jennifer was mostly Mauresmo`s bitch even in her best years which she would be well past at this point. Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, also playing great tennis here.
2006 French- Henin on clay was the winner. Again no further comment.
2006 Wimbledon- Mauresmo the winner. Henin and Sharapova coming close.
2006 U.S Open- On fire Sharapova the winner. Henin and Mauresmo in the final rounds.

Seriously where is this slam title going to come from. She couldnt even win in 2004 against alot weaker competition like Myskina, Dementieva, Kuznetsova, and she was only getting older and going backwards ever since her 3rd slam win. Jennifer had almost no wins against the top players after early 2002, yet in 2005 and 2006 about 4 years older she was going to produce 2 or 3 of them over top form big guns and take one. Anyway you are entitled your opinion.


Anyone who actually watched all of Jen and Serena's matches during that time would understand why it could be considered one of the great rivalries.

I understand the point about their matches to an extent but Jennifer`s time as a top 2 or 3 player in the World was clearly long over by the time she was forced to retire at the end of 2004 anyway. Even in the event I am wrong and she had another slam to sneak out in 2005-2007 in her I dont know about, her overall status and rank never would have ever been that high again. To me the games biggest rivalry isnt 2 players who can only meet in big tournaments in the quarterfinals which would have been the case with Jennifer-Serena, heck was the case with Jennifer-Serena after 2002 already as we saw.

bandabou
Jun 24th, 2011, 07:51 AM
worthy rivals, them all. Let's leave it at that. :lol:

TennisPhan
Oct 19th, 2012, 12:16 AM
1. Federer's 1st serve *
2. Federer's forehand
3. Djokovic' backhand
4. Djokovic' 2nd serve
5. Nadal's footwork
6. Federer's dropshot
7. Federer's volley
8. Nalbandian's loop

*Serena's 1st serve placement is as good as Federer's but his is faster, allthough Serena is more consistent than Federer this year.

btw does anyone know the average and fastest speed of Serena's BH, FH, 1st and 2nd serve? and how these shots compare to for example Federer's shots? Can't find it anywhere on google or youtube. Would appreciate it if someone can hook me up with the statistics.

thanks

TennisPhan
Oct 19th, 2012, 12:33 AM
2005 Australian Open- Serena. Lindsay and Maria also playing great tennis.
2005 French- Henin on clay was the winner. No chance for Jen.
2005 Wimbledon- Venus. Lindsay and Venus both on fire. Maria also playing great. Forget it, Jennifer never had a real chance at Wimbledon anyway.
2005 U.S Open- Clijsters on fire. Sharapova and Venus playing some great tennis here too.
2006 Australian Open- Mauresmo the winner. Remember Jennifer was mostly Mauresmo`s bitch even in her best years which she would be well past at this point. Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, also playing great tennis here.
2006 French- Henin on clay was the winner. Again no further comment.
2006 Wimbledon- Mauresmo the winner. Henin and Sharapova coming close.
2006 U.S Open- On fire Sharapova the winner. Henin and Mauresmo in the final rounds.


What a shame the Williams sisters were not in good shape/absent during these years.

Grafbestever, you seem to know a lot. What is your top 10 of female tennis players if you look at their career peak year. (make the list like this FOR EXAMPLE: 1. Serena (2012) 2. Graf (1990?) 3. Henin (2007) etc..) if you do this for me i will love you forever!

Thanks.

Beat
Oct 19th, 2012, 09:35 AM
Your Thoughts:drool:

my thoughts? another brilliant thread by jrollaneres! somebody should make a book out of them.

jrollaneres25
Nov 9th, 2012, 06:13 PM
player's forum

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3fcwca2zC1qki3pho1_400.gif

dencod16
Nov 9th, 2012, 09:32 PM
If a women pro were speaking truthfully they would take every aspect of a top mens players game before their own. Heck Nadals serve which for a top man sucks is probably better than Serenas straight up ignoring gender inequality, and Serenas is the best ever for a women. So imagine the serves of Roddick, Federer, or Karlovic which are twice what Nadals puny mens serve is.

If she took the others man serve it would be less because the their motion is not perfect. If the men gets her service motion they would be as unstoppable on serve as her. It's about the motion of the serve not the speed that makes it good. Because men will 80% serve faster than the women. The fact that Serena has better placement and same speed as Federer says a lot about the perfection of the motion.

dencod16
Nov 9th, 2012, 09:34 PM
1. Federer's 1st serve *
2. Federer's forehand
3. Djokovic' backhand
4. Djokovic' 2nd serve
5. Nadal's footwork
6. Federer's dropshot
7. Federer's volley
8. Nalbandian's loop

*Serena's 1st serve placement is as good as Federer's but his is faster, allthough Serena is more consistent than Federer this year.

btw does anyone know the average and fastest speed of Serena's BH, FH, 1st and 2nd serve? and how these shots compare to for example Federer's shots? Can't find it anywhere on google or youtube. Would appreciate it if someone can hook me up with the statistics.

thanks

Why the hell are you comparing speed cause it what around 3-5 kmh quicker which is not that good considering Federer is a man he should a good 15 kmh quicker that Serena if his serve is better.

TennisPhan
Nov 11th, 2012, 05:15 PM
Why the hell are you comparing speed cause it what around 3-5 kmh quicker which is not that good considering Federer is a man he should a good 15 kmh quicker that Serena if his serve is better.

good point

heavyhorse
Nov 11th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Venus' reach? Hm, I suppose. She used to get to balls so much better, though. She'd actually RUN to the ball and hit it - now she just reaches for it and as a result usually lets it fly by her.

I'd take Venus' net-play, though. :)

jrollaneres25
Nov 12th, 2012, 04:25 AM
Venus' reach? Hm, I suppose. She used to get to balls so much better, though. She'd actually RUN to the ball and hit it - now she just reaches for it and as a result usually lets it fly by her.

I'd take Venus' net-play, though. :)

Yes. Netplay+Reach=:drool: