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rimon
May 10th, 2011, 03:56 AM
How would you compare them game wise? Not really match up or career wise, but just who did what better?

alfajeffster
May 10th, 2011, 09:09 AM
How would you compare them game wise? Not really match up or career wise, but just who did what better?

Now that's a terrific question. Having seen video of both players at the peak of their talents, there are several things to take into consideration. First, Margaret was a much bigger girl. I've stood next to her and can confirm she's every bit as tall as me, and I'm 5'11". Her game was powerful yet very stiff in comparison as she was a natural lefty taught to play right-handed. Sort of the opposite of Rafael Nadal without the topspin if you will. She had terrific reach due to both her quickness and noticeably long arms and reach at the net. This, coupled with her consistent and potent attacking style (Cliff Drysdale once said "now there's a girl who would come in on the kitchen sink") made her very difficult to stop, and she had a fantastic overhead as well as serve. She had a potent forehand with a huge swing, and the forehand seemed to break down at times because so much could go wrong if she didn't time it perfectly. On grass, it's amazing to see her take such long loopy swings given the small amount of time you have. Her backhand was almost always a driving slice, which was very consistent and a perfect approach. Some of her passing shots with a slice are among the best I've ever seen. All things considered, I'd say she was an ostrich compared to Goolagong's Barn Swallow.

Billie Jean, on the other hand, was 5'5" (same size as Justine Henin) with some of the best hands at the net ever, including both male and female players. Her game was probably the most aggressive net rushing game of her day, and she read the ball at the net better than most everyone around her. Margaret once made reference to the fact that Billie Jean didn't like to hit a forehand in close to her body. Billie Jean's backhand was great, especially on the chip return of serve. She could put it on a dime, and hit it with aggressive authority that intimidated many players. I'd say her game was more natural than Margaret's, largely due to the lefty issue mentioned above. Her serve was really great, considering her size. The timing was nearly perfect, and her variety of spins and placements made it great. She also had the ability to adjust and vary her style of play at any given moment to adjust to the opponent, and frequently changed her game plan unexpectedly, which gave many opponents fits (Martina comes to mind).

Given both players playing their best games against each other, I'd say it's a toss-up on who would win.

laschutz
May 10th, 2011, 01:51 PM
well head to head court has a bit of the edge over billie jean, but for the 2 greatest players of their era, they didn't play that much, i mean i think under 20 times from the early 60's until maggie's final retirement in mid 1977! now, granted, there were the times for court's pregnancies and either player being out due to injury, and of course there were great players other then them during this era, but still these 2 are the greatest of their time (add bueno in her prime if you like as well) and yet they didnt play that much against each other.

evert once said in comparing the two that court had better groundstrokes, had better reach at net and more sound technically and was more powerful, and that king's forehand was a weakness, but if she had to bet her life on just 1 match between the two she would put her money on billie jean. i guess due to her WILL TO WIN?! also, i think king was a way better technican and strategist, she could hit every ball in the book, and knew how to use them, court was pretty much all power and endurance and strength.

evert had more problems with king than court due to king's tactics and mind and variety and yes, will to win, although evert of course came out ahead of both king and court head to head.

Josus57
May 11th, 2011, 12:18 PM
IMO - from what I read, and observed (not first hand, but on tape and tv) Margaret was subject to "bouts" (sorry couldn't come up with another word) to nerves at critical times in matches. I never saw this charastic with Billie Jean.

Rollo
May 11th, 2011, 02:00 PM
IMO - from what I read, and observed (not first hand, but on tape and tv) Margaret was subject to "bouts" (sorry couldn't come up with another word) to nerves at critical times in matches. I never saw this charastic with Billie Jean.


King could get nervous at times too (I love the term BK used for this "el choko"), but yes, Court was known for getting real tight, much like Navratilova.

I would say the one area where was most apparent was the serve. Court's first serve was a killer when it was on, better than King's IMO. What Margaret lacked though was spin on her second serve, so like many of the women pros when she was "off" or nervous she could serve scads of double faults.

By contrast King had more spin, so her second serve serve held up beautifully under pressure. Billie Jean was convinced her second serve won her the 1974 US Open over Evonne Goolagong, and I concur.

There is merit in the phrase "You are only as good as your second serve."

chris whiteside
May 11th, 2011, 05:22 PM
There is merit in the phrase "You are only as good as your second serve."

How on earth could Francoise Durr have won anything then!!!!

Rollo
May 11th, 2011, 10:30 PM
How on earth could Francoise Durr have won anything then!!!!

LOL Chris!:lol:

Perhaps the other players died of boredom waiting for it to come over. I recall one person joking that Frankie could run to the net before her serve would get there!

Ann Jones had some very interesting things to say while commenting on a Court-King match. I love what I have heard of her TV announcing.

laschutz
May 11th, 2011, 10:55 PM
court did indeed have the more powerful harder first serve, king the better second serve. i do think king had more variety in her serves, both first and second, she could hit it flat, slice it, top it, etcetera.

in regard to returning court and king's serve, evert could handle court's first serve more, thriving on the hard flat ball. evert had more trouble with the variety of king's serve first and second.

of course, the follow up is then what about who was fastest to the net after that serve? court or king? who had the better first volley? court or king? not only the first volley to hit a clean winner off of, but the first volley to set up the second shot/winning shot?

alfajeffster
May 12th, 2011, 08:15 AM
...of course, the follow up is then what about who was fastest to the net after that serve? court or king? who had the better first volley? court or king? not only the first volley to hit a clean winner off of, but the first volley to set up the second shot/winning shot?

Billie Jean King was much the better volleyer. Even she once commented on Court's net play "she doesn't have good hands". I actually think Billie Jean is the best female volleyer that I've ever seen (this includes Navratilova). Chris Evert was in the commentary booth for a Martina match in the early 90s, when Navratilova punched a beautiful backhand volley off of her shoelaces for a winner. Chris' immediate response was "that's a Billie Jean King volley".

Margaret Court did have a good volley made great by her constant attacking style of play and intimidating presence at the net. With such a long reach up there, she was difficult to pass and had the best overhead just in case the opponent thought to lob. Margaret just didn't put the ball away up there off of the first volley the way Billie Jean did.

rimon
May 12th, 2011, 01:03 PM
Thanks everyone so much for your replies. I am also interested to you know, how would you break down their games in terms of who had the better:

Serve (including first and second). I get the notion that some think that Margaret had the beter first serve, Billie Jean the better second.
Volleys (backhand and forehand separately).
Smash.
Forehand.
Backhand.
Return.
Movement.

alfajeffster
May 12th, 2011, 02:03 PM
Serve (including first and second). I get the notion that some think that Margaret had the beter first serve, Billie Jean the better second. AGREED.

Volleys (backhand and forehand separately).
Billie Jean had more natural movement and deft touch or power at her disposal. No comparison- hands down BJK

Smash.
Margaret Court had, in Chris Evert's own words "the best overhead in the women's game".

Forehand.
Margaret Court's forehand was very powerful, and a real weapon when she slammed it cross court, usually for a winner. Both players had problems off the ground with forehands at times, Margaret because she had such a long loopy swing that required perfect timing, and Billie Jean (IMO) because she had a natural forehand volley and the feeling carried over to her forehand at times in that she hit it too flat and even sometimes with a chipping underspin that cost her depth and consistency at times. More often than not, she used her forehand as an approach, not a rallying staple.

Backhand.
Madge's backhand was her best shot, and from the baseline far more consistent than Billie Jean's, who never was a real baseliner.

Return.
A toss up, really. I'd give the edge to Margaret only because she was better from the baseline and more consistent. Billie Jean tended to hit her groundies and passing shots too hard and flat to be that great on the baseline.

Movement.
Again, a toss up, as Margaret did stay back more than Billie Jean. They were both quick, but Court had an edge having been a regular sprinter when she was young.

tennisvideos
May 12th, 2011, 02:16 PM
I think the posters here have summed things up pretty well.

SERVE
Court definately had the more powerful serve (1st and 2nd serves were both aggressive) but they were both relatively flat and therefore she was prone to double faulting, esp when things got tight. She certainly double faulted her way to losing the 75 Wimbledon SF against Goolagong as she had chances in both sets. And considering Goolagong got walloped in the final by King that was a shame. Even though her serves were both powerful, Evert for example, was able to cope with it better than King's because it was flat. King had more variety on both serves and certainly set her up well for many freebies and easy volleys.

The thing about a hard flat serve is that it doesn't give the net rusher as much time to get to the net behind it. And King had an advantage with her spins to get in and play the first volley closer to the net from what I have observed. Serve goes to King but Court did have a great first serve and along with Ginny Wade they were the two big servers of their generation. Although Bueno also had a very good razor like serve!

Agree with Alfa. 1st serve to Court. 2nd serve to King.

VOLLEYS

King had perhaps the best volleys in the game (man or woman). Her touch was exquisite. She could place them at will, wrong foot opponents with them, and her drop volley was fantastic. Court's volleys were sound but she lacked the touch. As Alfa mentioned, being a natural born leftie but converted to play as a right hander would have been a factor in her lack of touch and also her less graceful game. I am sure it was also a factor in her being so keen to do gym work to build up her strength to offset this. Volleys to King.

SMASH

Court had a tremendous smash, but so did King. I think Court had the advantage though as she was much taller and also had the long arms so her reach was amazing. It did make it hard for the girls to lob and pass her BUT Evert was such a magician that she often lobbed Court for outright winners. But not many of the other girls were able to do this. I would give the smash to Court.

FOREHAND

Forehand to Court. I know some people mention it getting shaky, but more often than not it could be quite a devastating weapon. She did take a long raking swing, and generated a lot of power. It was flattish in nature and often even with a bit of underspin at times. She would regularly chip and charge with a sliced forehand which was very effective on grass as the ball would bite and stay low. King had a serviceable forehand but it wasn't a weapon by and large. But she could mix it up with topspin, flat or slice and did give people hell with her variety.

BACKHAND

Backhand is a closer call than one might think. King had an outstanding backhand, and she could slice, hit flat or with topspin on occasion. But more often it was a slice shot with a lot of bight. She had great touch with this shot and could hit outstanding drop shots with it as well. Margaret's was basically a flattish slice but it was consistently deep and accurate. I have also seen her use it to bring others in to the net with an angled short slice. Alfa did mention this, but Court did have a fantastic ability to pass players at the net with her backhand, esp the down the line shot. It was very accurate and she relied on this a lot. I think the backhand is a tough one to call - so a draw from my perspective.

I think overall from the baseline, I give the nod to Court. Her clay court record is incredible. Winning 5/10 French Open crowns and dominating many of the premier clay court events of the day is testamount to this. And a number of her peers have commented on the fact that she was one of the rare players in history to be just as good from the back of the court as at the net. King on the other hand gets the nod for her net play and her volleying skills are definately some of the best the sport has ever seen. I think even Pat Cash modelled his volleys on the great Billie-Jean King. Pretty impressive compliment from someone who regularly slags off womens tennis!

MOVEMENT

Both girls were good movers. Court was a big framed girl but moved incredibly well. She was timed to run 100 yards at great speed and could have represented Australia at the Olympics had she have gone down this path. One just has to watch her running back to chase some of the lobs against Bueno (64), King (70) and Evert (all 4 clashes in 73) to see how fast Margaret was. Plus she was quick enough to run down some of King's amazing drop shots in the 70 final as well. King was also very fast around the court, taking quicker steps compared to Court's longer strides. Both girls were always on the balls of their feet. There is some stunning footage of Court leaping and running about the court in the 73 USO footage (not sure which match - SF or Final). But it showed just how agile and athletic Court really was. I would give the movement to Court.

MENTAL TOUGHNESS

The one thing I always make a mention of these days is that although Court did choke on a few big occasions I think the association is highly overused. I mean the girl won 24 of her 29 GS Singles Final. Now that is simply astonishing, and she really was a choker she would not have been able to have achieved such an incredible winning ratio in all of those Major Finals. Added to that fact is that is that she was able to dig deep and come from the brink of defeat in a number of big matches eg. down 2-5 against the great claycourter Turner at the French Final (early 60s), coming back from 2-5 final set French Semis against great claycourter Richey, coming back against Evert in the 73 French etc. So IMO she was much stronger mentally than most people give her credit for.

King was perhaps the greatest competitor the game has seen. She relished a challenge and was almost always up for it. 69 Aussie Final and one of the USO matches v Heldman were a few examples of when she tanked it. But she was such a tough cookie mentally and I also think she used a bit of gamesmanship at times and intimidation to out-psyche many opponents. It wasn't just a tennis game for King, it was also about getting into the opponent's head. Court was the polar opposite in this regard, politely going about her way on the court, rarely making a scene over bad calls (although I have seen her cop many). King was much more demonstrative on court. Another reason why so many, including myself, loved watching her play. You just knew it was going to be entertaining and lots of passion and drama.

So mentally, I would give the edge to King. But I don't think Court was a choker ... I think she was one of the most mentally tough ever. She just bombed out against Riggs in a circus like atmosphere and a couple of other key matches. But these were the exception rather than the norm.

Anyway, that's just my two cents worth.

Both legends. Both phenomenal players. And both in my all time top 10 players (women).

tennisvideos
May 12th, 2011, 02:25 PM
How on earth could Francoise Durr have won anything then!!!!

Made me laugh! :lol:

Add that to her crazy backhand and volleys and you do wonder! But what a tennis brain, she certainly knew where to hit the ball. :worship:

austinrunner
May 12th, 2011, 08:31 PM
Previous threads devoted to this subject, per our magnificent Thread Finder:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=424849
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=206844
http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=212099

austinrunner
May 12th, 2011, 08:43 PM
well head to head court has a bit of the edge over billie jean, but for the 2 greatest players of their era, they didn't play that much, i mean i think under 20 times from the early 60's until maggie's final retirement in mid 1977! now, granted, there were the times for court's pregnancies and either player being out due to injury, and of course there were great players other then them during this era, but still these 2 are the greatest of their time (add bueno in her prime if you like as well) and yet they didnt play that much against each other.

They played each other 34 times in singles from 1962 through the end of their careers. Their last match was in 1973. Court finished with a 21-13 edge. That averages to about 3 matches per year.

austinrunner
May 12th, 2011, 08:57 PM
MENTAL TOUGHNESS

The one thing I always make a mention of these days is that although Court did choke on a few big occasions I think the association is highly overused. I mean the girl won 24 of her 29 GS Singles Final. Now that is simply astonishing, and she really was a choker she would not have been able to have achieved such an incredible winning ratio in all of those Major Finals. Added to that fact is that is that she was able to dig deep and come from the brink of defeat in a number of big matches eg. down 2-5 against the great claycourter Turner at the French Final (early 60s), coming back from 2-5 final set French Semis against great claycourter Richey, coming back against Evert in the 73 French etc. So IMO she was much stronger mentally than most people give her credit for.

King was perhaps the greatest competitor the game has seen. She relished a challenge and was almost always up for it. 69 Aussie Final and one of the USO matches v Heldman were a few examples of when she tanked it. But she was such a tough cookie mentally and I also think she used a bit of gamesmanship at times and intimidation to out-psyche many opponents. It wasn't just a tennis game for King, it was also about getting into the opponent's head. Court was the polar opposite in this regard, politely going about her way on the court, rarely making a scene over bad calls (although I have seen her cop many). King was much more demonstrative on court. Another reason why so many, including myself, loved watching her play. You just knew it was going to be entertaining and lots of passion and drama.

So mentally, I would give the edge to King. But I don't think Court was a choker ... I think she was one of the most mentally tough ever. She just bombed out against Riggs in a circus like atmosphere and a couple of other key matches. But these were the exception rather than the norm.

King lost MANY more matches that she should have won compared to Court. King was a great big match player, with just a few exceptions, but she was prone to lose to lesser players in lesser events. Court did not have that problem.

alfajeffster
May 12th, 2011, 10:36 PM
King lost MANY more matches that she should have won compared to Court. King was a great big match player, with just a few exceptions, but she was prone to lose to lesser players in lesser events. Court did not have that problem.

Court (nee Smith) did lose her first match at Wimbledon 1962 to a bespectacled, unseeded waif named Moffitt, but that was before my time (4 MONTHS!)

laschutz
May 12th, 2011, 11:15 PM
thanks austinrunner for the complete head to head total. i didn't know they played that much 34 times? that's not a bad number after all i guess.

just imagine chrissie and martina played 80 times! that's is crazy! lol!

i think billie had more will to win when it counted the most, but yes, she more than margaret could lose to the occassional person and round that she shouldn't have, i think it being that billie had to be "up for a match" and if she wasn't? anything could happen.

margaret was more calm on court, and perhaps knowing her stature, physical presence was enough to intimdate opponents and she just had to play her powerful game and she would win.

billie had to use her serve and volley and cunning and tactics especially off the ground to always win, she couldn't really simply overpower opponents, although she was powerful herself.

i think the Choke label is overused in regards to court as well. i guess because based on her physical size, her style of game, the fact that she did win everything, and also because of her perhaps seen as 'too calm, not emotional, not demonstrative, non fired up" personality, that when she DID LOSE AT A MAJOR EVENT/FINAL it was seen as choking.

in earlier postings, sounds like super martina was a combination of the best court and best king!

speaking about confidence and intimatation factors, i wonder who intimidated who more when they played against each other king or court? or perhaps neither felt it?

austinrunner
May 13th, 2011, 09:48 AM
speaking about confidence and intimatation factors, i wonder who intimidated who more when they played against each other king or court? or perhaps neither felt it?

Court was extremely nervous during her first career match against King at Wimbledon. You can read a great newspaper report about the match here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=19032757&postcount=237

Court won their next 9 matches and 18 consecutive sets, which was both very frustrating and eventually very motivating to King.

From 1966 through 1973, they evenly split 24 matches and 56 sets. 16 of their 24 matches were straight sets affairs. Only 5 of the 24 matches were at Grand Slam tournaments, where King led 3-2. It was extremely disappointing that Chris Evert defeated Court in the 1973 Wimbledon semifinals. Court had a great year, but I'm sure King was itching to get revenge from their 1970 Wimbledon final.

They played 77 sets against each other in singles, with Court winning 47 and losing 30. You can see their career head-to-head record here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=6810893&postcount=33

Was it Court or King that was most responsible for them not playing each other more than 10 times in Grand Slam tournaments? You can see my analysis of this question here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18896525&postcount=35

In the 26 Grand Slam singles tournaments that both King and Court played, which did better? The clear answer is Court.
Overall: Court 16-10 (Court 10-6 if we don't count the tournaments they played each other)
Australia: Court 2-1
French: Court 2-0
Wimbledon: Tied 6-6
U.S.: Court 6-3

You can see a wonderful newspaper story about their 1970 Wimbledon final here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=19095171&postcount=238

tennisvideos
May 13th, 2011, 12:11 PM
Court was extremely nervous during her first career match against King at Wimbledon. You can read a great newspaper report about the match here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=19032757&postcount=237

Court won their next 9 matches and 18 consecutive sets, which was both very frustrating and eventually very motivating to King.

From 1966 through 1973, they evenly split 24 matches and 56 sets. 16 of their 24 matches were straight sets affairs. Only 5 of the 24 matches were at Grand Slam tournaments, where King led 3-2. It was extremely disappointing that Chris Evert defeated Court in the 1973 Wimbledon semifinals. Court had a great year, but I'm sure King was itching to get revenge from their 1970 Wimbledon final.

They played 77 sets against each other in singles, with Court winning 47 and losing 30. You can see their career head-to-head record here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=6810893&postcount=33

Was it Court or King that was most responsible for them not playing each other more than 10 times in Grand Slam tournaments? You can see my analysis of this question here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18896525&postcount=35

In the 26 Grand Slam singles tournaments that both King and Court played, which did better? The clear answer is Court.
Overall: Court 16-10 (Court 10-6 if we don't count the tournaments they played each other)
Australia: Court 2-1
French: Court 2-0
Wimbledon: Tied 6-6
U.S.: Court 6-3

You can see a wonderful newspaper story about their 1970 Wimbledon final here:
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=19095171&postcount=238

A great post Austinrunner. And what a magnificent article about that 70 Final. And in my mind, it is one of my all time favourites! It wasn't just the shotmaking, it was the courage, the guts, the desperation. Great theatre!

calou
May 14th, 2011, 05:24 AM
I remember watching the 70 final on our black and white TV .Every year my father rent a house near the beach in July and the whole family watched the Wimbledon finals .This one's my favorite considering this period ,it was the drama ,the suspense .Nowadays women tennis's so bad !

austinrunner
May 15th, 2011, 03:27 AM
In women's doubles, Smith Court led King 20-18, including 8-5 in Grand Slam tournaments. 34 of their 38 matches were in finals. As the #1 seed, King lost 6 times while Smith Court lost only once (per the available records). Based upon seedings, Smith Court was upset only twice by King.

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by the former's partners:
9-11 Rosemary Casals
4-4 Karen Hantze Susman
2-1 Carole Caldwell Graebner
2-2 Robyn Ebbern Vincenzi
1-1 Maria Bueno
0-1 Chris Evert

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by the latter's partners:
6-4 Lesley Turner Bowrey
2-0 Gail Sherriff Chanfreau Lovera
2-1 Evonne Goolagong Cawley
2-1 Lesley Hunt
2-5 Judy Tegart Dalton
1-0 Jan Lehane O'Neill
1-0 Francoise Durr
1-3 Justina Bricka Horwitz
1-4 Virginia Wade
0-1 Maria Bueno
0-1 Annette Van Zyl DuPlooy

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by their partners (King's first, Smith Court's second):
2-0 Rosemary Casals, Gail Sherriff Chanfreau Lovera
2-0 Casals, Evonne Goolagong Cawley
2-1 Casals, Lesley Hunt
2-1 Karen Hantze Susman, Lesley Turner Bowrey
2-2 Robyn Ebbern Vincenzi, Turner Bowrey
1-0 Hantze Susman, Jan Lehane O'Neill
1-0 Carole Caldwell Graebner, Judy Tegart Dalton
1-0 Casals, Francoise Durr
1-0 Caldwell Graebner, Turner Bowrey
1-1 Maria Bueno, Turner Bowrey
1-3 Hantze Susman, Justina Bricka Horwitz
1-4 Casals, Virginia Wade
1-5 Casals, Judy Tegart Dalton
0-1 Caldwell Graebner, Annette Van Zyl DuPlooy
0-1 Casals, Maria Bueno
0-1 Chris Evert, Goolagong Cawley

The following list is very likely to be incomplete.

-----1961 RANKING YEAR-----

Wimbledon final (grass): King / Karen Hantze Susman [NS] d. Smith Court / Jan Lehane O'Neill [3] 4-6, 6-4, 7-5

-----1962 RANKING YEAR-----

Manchester final (grass): Smith Court / Justina Bricka Horwitz d. King / Hantze Susman 4-6, 6-1, 6-2
Wimbledon semifinal (grass): King / Hantze Susman [2] d. Smith Court / Bricka Horwitz [3] 6-3, 6-4
Haverford, Pennsylvania final (grass): Smith Court / Bricka Horwitz d. King / Hantze Susman 7-5, 3-6, 8-6
South Orange, New Jersey final (grass): Smith Court / Bricka Horwitz d. King / Hantze Susman 7-5, 6-4

-----1963 RANKING YEAR-----

Federation Cup final, London (grass): King / Carole Caldwell Graebner d. Smith Court / Lesley Turner Bowrey 6-3, 11-13, 6-3

-----1964 RANKING YEAR-----

Wimbledon final (grass): Smith Court / Turner Bowrey [1] d. King / Hantze Susman [2] 7-5, 6-2
U.S. National Championships final (grass): King / Hantze Susman [2] d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey [1] 3-6, 6-2, 6-4
Federation Cup final, Philadelphia (grass): King / Hantze Susman d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey 4-6, 7-5, 6-1

-----1965 RANKING YEAR-----

Brisbane final (grass): Smith Court / Turner Bowrey d. King / Robyn Ebbern Vincenzi 5-7, 6-4, 6-1
Sydney final (grass): King / Ebbern Vincenzi d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey 6-4, 3-6, 7-5
Melbourne final (grass): King / Ebbern Vincenzi d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey 9-7, 1-6, 6-4
Federation Cup final, Melbourne (grass): King / Caldwell Graebner d. Smith Court / Judy Tegart Dalton 7-5, 4-6, 6-4
Australian Championships final, Melboune (grass): Smith Court / Turner Bowrey [1] d. King / Ebbern Vincenzi [3] 1-6, 6-2, 6-3
Beckenham final (grass): King / Maria Bueno d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey 7-9, 7-5, 9-7
Queen's Club final, London (grass): Smith Court / Turner Bowrey d. King / Bueno 10-8, 6-2

-----1966 RANKING YEAR-----

South African Championships final, Johannesburg (hard): Smith Court / Annette Van Zyl DuPlooy [2] d. King / Caldwell Graebner [1] 6-4, 6-4
Wimbledon quarterfinal (grass): Smith Court / Tegart Dalton [1] d. King / Rosemary Casals [NS] 6-3, 6-4

-----1967 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1968 RANKING YEAR-----

Melbourne quarterfinal (grass): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Gail Sherriff Chanfreau Lovera 6-3, 6-3
Perth final (grass): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Sherriff Chanfreau Lovera 8-6, 4-6, 6-2
Wimbledon quarterfinal (grass): King / Casals [1] d. Smith Court / Virginia Wade [NS] 6-4, 3-6, 6-3
US Open final (grass): Smith Court / Bueno [3] d. King / Casals [1] 4-6, 9-7, 8-6

-----1969-----

Sydney final (grass): Smith Court / Tegart Dalton d. King / Casals 15-13, 4-6, 6-3
Australian Open final (grass): Smith Court / Tegart Dalton [2] d. King / Casals [1] 6-4, 6-4
Bristol final (grass): Smith Court / Tegart Dalton d. King / Casals 6-4, 6-2
US Open final (grass): Smith Court / Wade [3] d. King / Casals [1] 9-7, 9-7

-----1970-----

Dallas final (hard?): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Francoise Durr 6-2, 4-6, 10-8
Durban, South Africa final (hard): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Tegart Dalton 7-5, 6-3
Bournemouth final (clay): Smith Court / Tegart Dalton d. King / Casals 6-2, 6-8, 7-5

-----1971-----

Hurlingham final (clay): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Evonne Goolagong Cawley 6-1, 6-4
Wimbledon final (grass): King / Casals [1] d. Smith Court / Goolagong Cawley [2] 6-3, 6-2

-----1972-----

Newport final (grass): Smith Court / Lesley Hunt d. King / Casals 6-2, 6-2
Oakland final (hard): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Hunt 7-5, 2-6, 7-6

-----1973-----

Indianapolis final (indoor): King / Casals d. Smith Court / Hunt 7-6, 6-4
US Open final (grass): Smith Court / Wade [2] d. King / Casals [1] 3-6, 6-3, 7-5
Hilton Head final (hard): Smith Court / Goolagong Cawley d. King / Chris Evert 3-6, 6-3, 6-4

-----1975-----

Tokyo final (indoor): Smith Court / Wade [4] d. King / Casals [1] 6-7(2-5), 7-6(5-2), 6-2
US Open final (clay): Smith Court / Wade [3] d. King / Casals [4] 7-5, 2-6, 7-6(5)

alfajeffster
May 15th, 2011, 06:59 AM
Look at those gems between Court/Wade and King/Casals! I've only seen precious little of their 1975 US Open final, and the tennis is some of the best I've ever seen played. It's a shame more of this classic tennis isn't preserved for future generations, because it doesn't get any better than 4 world-class net rushers going at it with only a point or two deciding the contest.

austinrunner
May 19th, 2011, 08:56 AM
In mixed doubles, Smith Court led King 9-5, including 5-3 in Grand Slam tournaments. Smith Court won their first 5 matches in those tournaments before losing their last 3. One of King's 5 wins was arguably an exhibition, the Mixed Doubles Classic in 1975 involving current women's professionals and world class men's players from the 1940s and 50s.

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by the former's partners:
2-1 Owen Davidson
2-1 Robert Hewitt
1-0 Tony Trabert
0-1 Arthur Ashe
0-1 Donald Dell
0-1 Frew McMillan
0-1 Dennis Ralston
0-1 Ray Ruffells
0-1 Roger Taylor
0-1 John Newcombe

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by the latter's partners:
2-4 Marty Riessen
1-0 ???? Bowman
1-0 Fred Stolle
1-0 Zeljko Franulovic
0-1 John Newcombe
0-1 Frank Sedgman
0-3 Ken Fletcher

Here is King's record against Smith Court, sorted by their partners (King's first, Smith Court's second):
2-0 Owen Davidson, Marty Riessen
1-0 Tony Trabert, Frank Sedgman
1-0 Robert Hewitt, Zeljko Franulovic
1-1 Hewitt, Riessen
0-1 Frew McMillan, Fred Stolle
0-1 Donald Dell, Ken Fletcher
0-1 Dennis Ralston, Fletcher
0-1 Roger Taylor, Riessen
0-1 Ray Ruffells, ???? Bowman
0-1 Davidson, Fletcher
0-1 John Newcombe, Riessen
0-1 Arthur Ashe, Newcombe

The following list is very likely to be incomplete.

-----1961 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1962 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1963 RANKING YEAR-----

U.S Championships semifinal (grass): Ken Fletcher / Smith Court d. Donald Dell / King 5-7, 8-6, 6-4

-----1964 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1965 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1966 RANKING YEAR-----

South African Championships final (hard): Fred Stolle / Smith Court d. Frew McMillan / King 6-4, 7-5
Wimbledon final (grass): Ken Fletcher / Smith Court d. Dennis Ralston / King 4-6, 6-3, 6-3

-----1967 RANKING YEAR-----

No matches.

-----1968 RANKING YEAR-----

Perth final (grass): ???? Bowman / Smith Court d. Ray Ruffells / King 5-7, 6-4, 6-4
Australian Championships final (grass): Richard Crealy / King won by walkover versus Allan Stone / Smith Court
Wimbledon semifinal (grass): Ken Fletcher / Smith Court d. Owen Davidson / King 6-4, 9-7

-----1969-----

Australian Championships semifinal (grass): Marty Riessen / Smith Court d. Roger Taylor / King 7-5, 6-3
French Open semifinal (clay): Marty Riessen / Smith Court d. John Newcombe / King 7-5, 6-4

-----1970-----

South African Open final (hard): Marty Riessen / Smith Court d. Robert Hewitt / King 3-6, 6-3, 11-9
Durban final (hard): Robert Hewitt / King d. Marty Riessen / Smith Court 6-3, 6-4
French Open semifinal (clay): Robert Hewitt / King d. Zeljko Franulovic / Smith Court 6-4, 8-6

-----1971-----

Wimbledon final (grass): Owen Davidson / King d. Marty Riessen / Smith Court 3-6, 6-2, 15-13

-----1972-----

No matches.

-----1973-----

US Open final (grass): Owen Davidson / King d. Marty Riessen / Smith Court 6-3, 3-6, 7-6
World Invitational Tennis Classic ?R (hard): John Newcombe / Smith Court d. Arthur Ashe / King 3-6, 6-3, 6-4

-----1974-----

No matches.

-----1975-----

Mixed Doubles Classic, Scottsdale final (hard): Tony Trabert / King d. Frank Sedgman / Smith Court 6-4, 6-2

tennisvideos
May 19th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Look at those gems between Court/Wade and King/Casals! I've only seen precious little of their 1975 US Open final, and the tennis is some of the best I've ever seen played. It's a shame more of this classic tennis isn't preserved for future generations, because it doesn't get any better than 4 world-class net rushers going at it with only a point or two deciding the contest.

Same Alfa, I think the matches between those 4 players would have been some of the best doubles matches ever played. That 75 USO Final is so exciting and the crowd are so into it! Such a shame more of these matches isn't available. It truly would be heaven.

alfajeffster
May 19th, 2011, 06:14 PM
Same Alfa, I think the matches between those 4 players would have been some of the best doubles matches ever played. That 75 USO Final is so exciting and the crowd are so into it! Such a shame more of these matches isn't available. It truly would be heaven.

It's the one thing I detest about today's women's doubles- they frequently play up and back. I've played a lot of doubles, and always hated it when my partner stayed back. No matter how good their groundies were, doubles is still better with both partners at the net- it's the object of doubles to take control of the net. Imagine any of Court, Wade, King or Casals staying back! Those gals weren't afraid of the ball up at the net the way they are now, and the rapid-fire points where all four players are in are spectacular. Imagine trying to pass Margaret Court in doubles, never mind singles!

tennisvideos
May 20th, 2011, 07:27 AM
It's the one thing I detest about today's women's doubles- they frequently play up and back. I've played a lot of doubles, and always hated it when my partner stayed back. No matter how good their groundies were, doubles is still better with both partners at the net- it's the object of doubles to take control of the net. Imagine any of Court, Wade, King or Casals staying back! Those gals weren't afraid of the ball up at the net the way they are now, and the rapid-fire points where all four players are in are spectacular. Imagine trying to pass Margaret Court in doubles, never mind singles!

Its funny but I play doubles mainly from the back of the court, but really because I lack confidence at the net and always have. But I find it so much more exciting to watch doubles with lots of net play ... esp doubles from the 60s and 70s with wooden rackets when they couldn't just blast winners so there were lots of great points even when all 4 were at the net ... like those 4 you mentioned.

I think doubles has been badly damaged by the modern day technology in the rackets and strings. The players can generate so much power and spin from the baseline that it is almost go to the net at your peril! That's another reason why I prefer watching the old doubles footage.

Imagine also the Court/Bueno v King/Casals clashes. Heaven :bounce:

austinrunner
May 20th, 2011, 08:45 AM
Imagine also the Court/Bueno v King/Casals clashes. Heaven
Was there more than one?

tennisvideos
May 21st, 2011, 08:04 AM
Was there more than one?

No just the once as far as I know but look at these two epics that featured Court, King & Bueno. How I would have loved to have seen these!

Beckenham final (grass): King / Maria Bueno d. Smith Court / Turner Bowrey 7-9, 7-5, 9-7

US Open final (grass): Smith Court / Bueno d. King / Casals 4-6, 9-7, 8-6

laschutz
May 23rd, 2011, 12:47 AM
personally i cannot believe there is not a single video on youtube. com of king vs court?! that's crazy! not counting the 75 u.s.open doubles match with court/wade vs king/casals (which by the way if you haven't seen it, it's a absolute must! so so much fun to watch! great players/legends, great skill, tactics, theatrics, emotion, you name it this match had it!

god how i miss the days of these matches and when CBS would show the virginia slims of whatever city on tv!

anyway, cannot believe like i said not a single court vs king match, heck, there is also no court/riggs or king/riggs videos either?!

would love to see court vs king 1970 wimby and 1973 court vs king clashes!....

tommystar
May 28th, 2011, 05:54 PM
Hi Guys!

In the semis of the mixed event of the 1969 Roland Garros they faced each other, which is missing from austinrunner's list.

Court/Riessen d. King/Newcombe 7-5 6-4 -- AAAANNNNDDDD

according to RickSasha's website that match is available on DVD! :D

austinrunner
May 29th, 2011, 03:34 AM
In the semis of the mixed event of the 1969 Roland Garros they faced each other, which is missing from austinrunner's list.
Fixed.

tennisvideos
May 29th, 2011, 10:28 AM
Hi Guys!

In the semis of the mixed event of the 1969 Roland Garros they faced each other, which is missing from austinrunner's list.

Court/Riessen d. King/Newcombe 7-5 6-4 -- AAAANNNNDDDD

according to RickSasha's website that match is available on DVD! :D

Ah yes. I do have that match on DVD so I should have remembered when I saw the list. But it's so easy to forget what you have in your own collection.

Thank heavens are few more matches from the French archives are being made available.

chris whiteside
May 29th, 2011, 05:29 PM
according to RickSasha's website that match is available on DVD! :D

I thought matches before 1971 were unavailable due to legal issues?

tennisvideos
May 30th, 2011, 10:36 AM
I thought matches before 1971 were unavailable due to legal issues?

Same. I don't think it's supposed to be advertised. I was emphatically told never to list it so I am very surprised to see it listed anywhere.

alfajeffster
May 30th, 2011, 01:07 PM
Same. I don't think it's supposed to be advertised. I was emphatically told never to list it so I am very surprised to see it listed anywhere.

I never really understood this. Is there such a great market out there for the old matches such that the copyrighted material isn't available to a scant few collectors? Is someone going to have a tennis party at their local club and play a copy of an old match? I think not, and I also think it's pretty ridiculous for Wimbledon or any of the other majors to hold onto old match video that can't possibly turn a profit unless they're made available on the majors' web sites for a nominal download fee. It's my understanding that Wimbledon and the U.S Open won't even justify the expense of transferring old reel-to-reel matches. Even that no longer holds water with how simple it's become to make historical footage of anything digital. How are juniors today expected to see how to construct a point or master the art of chip and charge?

MurrayState84
Jun 16th, 2011, 07:35 AM
I remember BJK saying that until 1966, Margaret was just better, and would always win by one service break each set. As others have stated, their head to head was much more even after King returned from Australia in her effort to catch up. In BJK's defense, she had to do all the heavy lifting and create the opportunities for the other girls in the early 70s, including Margaret. I'm sure by 1973, the year Court won 3 of the 4 majors, BJK was exhausted. It doesn't seem like Court had the personality to help. Others may know better. When you watch old tapes, King is so much more exciting to watch. Court always looks a lumbering Pam Shriver, although I know in reality she was a much better player. Unfortunately, she retired the year I started playing, 1977. The same year that I was lucky enough to see BJK play in person. It seemed she could do anything with a tennis ball. At least to an 11-year-old. So I'm prejudiced. ;-)

tennisvideos
Jun 16th, 2011, 09:07 AM
I remember BJK saying that until 1966, Margaret was just better, and would always win by one service break each set. As others have stated, their head to head was much more even after King returned from Australia in her effort to catch up. In BJK's defense, she had to do all the heavy lifting and create the opportunities for the other girls in the early 70s, including Margaret. I'm sure by 1973, the year Court won 3 of the 4 majors, BJK was exhausted. It doesn't seem like Court had the personality to help. Others may know better. When you watch old tapes, King is so much more exciting to watch. Court always looks a lumbering Pam Shriver, although I know in reality she was a much better player. Unfortunately, she retired the year I started playing, 1977. The same year that I was lucky enough to see BJK play in person. It seemed she could do anything with a tennis ball. At least to an 11-year-old. So I'm prejudiced. ;-)

Well we are all prejudiced. As for King doing all the heavy lifting to create opportunities for others - she did a lot but did not do it all. Ask Nancy Richey, Frankie Durr, Judy Dalton and others - they all put themselves on the line and yet it is King who got most of the kudos and still does to this day, probably because she was the most outspoken whilst many of the other girls were more retiring types in the face of publicity. Also, these girls have mentioned that it was in fact Gladys Heldman who did most of the hard work behind the scenes, and once again King took a lot of the glory as she was a great spokesperson. And I am not saying that to denigrate King, for she did do heaps for the tour and she is one of my idols.

But you also have to remember that King WANTED and CHOSE to take on this sort of work as well. Court wanted and chose to get married and have a family. So most of her energy off the court was spent focussed on her husband and then children once they started coming along from 1971. So both were expending energy in different ways and I am sure raising a child is exhausting as well. Both ladies had different priorities and channelled their energy and focus accordingly. Doesn't make one right and one wrong. Just means that tennis fans probably prefer their old tennis stars to put in more work to support their sport or commentate or coach etc rather than see them drift off into family life.

As for King having more skills, she was indeed very talented with the ball and had great touch and perhaps the greatest volleys in the history of the sport - male or female. Court didn't have that touch and I attribute this to the fact that she was a natural born lefty who was coached to play right handed. Little wonder she had to build up her strength to cater for this and no surprise she didn't have the same grace or touch. I look like a mutant when I try to play left handed myself! :lol:

tennisvideos
Jun 16th, 2011, 09:11 AM
I never really understood this. Is there such a great market out there for the old matches such that the copyrighted material isn't available to a scant few collectors? Is someone going to have a tennis party at their local club and play a copy of an old match? I think not, and I also think it's pretty ridiculous for Wimbledon or any of the other majors to hold onto old match video that can't possibly turn a profit unless they're made available on the majors' web sites for a nominal download fee. It's my understanding that Wimbledon and the U.S Open won't even justify the expense of transferring old reel-to-reel matches. Even that no longer holds water with how simple it's become to make historical footage of anything digital. How are juniors today expected to see how to construct a point or master the art of chip and charge?

Yes I agree it's shocking really. Unfortunately I have to respect the people who helped me obtain the footage I have received from a number of avenues or those sources may not release more footage to me. So I guess I am handcuffed in that respect Alfa.

tennisvideos
Jun 16th, 2011, 09:14 AM
Court always looks a lumbering Pam Shriver, although I know in reality she was a much better player.

If you watch the 1973 USO SF Court v Evert you will see Court dancing around in slow motion and the commentators are waxing lyrical about her athleticism and agility. Her movement truly looks poetic in that clip. Of course when you compared her to the artists of the day like Goolagong and the elegant Evert she did look more clumsy. But I think she was a superb athlete and very fleet of foot.

laschutz
Jun 16th, 2011, 07:41 PM
margaret always did seem "lumbering" although she was indeed fast about the court.... she also seemed always "hunched over" besides when she returned serve?....

can anyone in detail explain how king could give everyone fit playing them well into her mid and late 30's and margaret couldn't?( besides injuries and more children for as well as her being 2 years older than billie and her retirment.i meant)....

i don't think even if margaret was injury free,healthy and had the desire still she would be able to have done what billiejean did in her mid to late 30's... most noticeably on fast indoor courts and at wimbledon 1980-1983.

MurrayState84
Jun 16th, 2011, 08:22 PM
Again, I don't know Court's game very well. I think she retired after the indoor season in 1977. By that time, I don't think she was really a threat to Evert or Navratilova. Of course, BJK never beat Chris again either (after 75) but still beat the rest of the girls regularly, including Martina. Perhaps it was BJK's foot speed and bigger-than-life persona? I'm guessing here.

Rollo
Jun 16th, 2011, 11:15 PM
can anyone in detail explain how king could give everyone fit playing them well into her mid and late 30's and margaret couldn't?i don't think even if margaret was injury free,healthy and had the desire still she would be able to have done what billiejean did in her mid to late 30's... most noticeably on fast indoor courts and at wimbledon 1980-1983.


A comment Nancy Richey made about King comes to mind: "She really knew how to junk the ball around", or something along those lines. The chops, dinks, and variety are tools best wielded by someone with experience and guile-things Billie Jean had in spades.

And from Martina: "She knew exactly what shots you didn't like to hit."

The other factor, as MurrayState84 (welcome to the Blast BTW:wavey:) touched on, was just the sheer emotional intensity Billie Jean brought to the court. Chris Evert refused to look at Billie Jean directly when they played-and avoided being intimidated.

I disagree about the relative foot speed of King and Court. Age may have slowed Court down if we're talking muid 30s. Graceful she may not have been. One thing Court had was sheer foot speed. In her prime she was easily one of the fastest women on tour. On a lark she once ran a race against an Olympic track star. The Olympian won, but the story goes that Court was closing in on her in the end and could easily have been a track star had she trained for the sport.

alfajeffster
Jun 17th, 2011, 08:20 AM
...I disagree about the relative foot speed of King and Court. Age may have slowed Court down if we're talking muid 30s. Graceful she may not have been. One thing Court had was sheer foot speed. In her prime she was easily one of the fastest women on tour. On a lark she once ran a race against an Olympic track star. The Olympian won, but the story goes that Court was closing in on her in the end and could easily have been a track star had she trained for the sport.

In the land of hypothetical, with Pauline Betz, Margaret Court and Steffi Graf all at their prime and warmed up to the track, who would win the race? Apples and Oranges, I know, but I always loved fruit on the track.