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SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:28 AM
I was doing some thinking and even though I'm reasonably new to Tennisforum, I have been following tennis for the past 5 or so years. I recently acknowledged that the quality of tennis matches seemed to have descended since about 2009. Yes, there were a couple of great matches from that time, but none like the way it was back in 2000-2007. I have come to the conclusion that the reason for such low quality matches as well as so many slumping, is due to the RoadMap. I remember they changed the rules, what 3 years ago?:confused: That if you were top 10 you had to play a certain amount of matches and be in a certain amount of places. I think that due to this extremely high demand of time, not many players have been able to work on and improve their games efficiently enough. Also, I think this is why a player like Wozniacki is able to be n1 in the world, because she is in my opinion the most physically fit player on tour, and probably the only player that is able to effectively play by those rules. The RoadMap in my opinion is why the tour is in the slump that it is currently in today. :)

Henpova
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:08 AM
The top players don't play much more then they used to....I mean most top players only play 18 tournaments a year in 2007 and now they play 20...so two more tournaments is not a lot more over a whole year...also Caro is very fit but this is not the reason why she is number one....she is number one because she wins the most titles and plays at a high level for a long time...I think the problems are injures and playing with them...it looks like player are not taking as long as they should to let injuries heel..and the road map dose not make them play...all they have to do is say they have a injury....

With that said you may be right but I disagree......

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:22 AM
I was doing some thinking and even though I'm reasonably new to Tennisforum, I have been following tennis for the past 5 or so years. I recently acknowledged that the quality of tennis matches seemed to have descended since about 2009. Yes, there were a couple of great matches from that time, but none like the way it was back in 2000-2007. I have come to the conclusion that the reason for such low quality matches as well as so many slumping, is due to the RoadMap. I remember they changed the rules, what 3 years ago?:confused: That if you were top 10 you had to play a certain amount of matches and be in a certain amount of places. I think that due to this extremely high demand of time, not many players have been able to work on and improve their games efficiently enough. Also, I think this is why a player like Wozniacki is able to be n1 in the world, because she is in my opinion the most physically fit player on tour, and probably the only player that is able to effectively play by those rules. The RoadMap in my opinion is why the tour is in the slump that it is currently in today. :)
Agree. Wozniacki mafia (read Piotr) changed the rules so that she could dominate. Glad you've solved that for us.

Papillon.
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:42 AM
I'm sorry but every time I've seen your sig it's been in a thread where I have legitimately nothing to contribute, so finally I've had enough and I'm just going to say it.

I fucking adore your signature, tea. :hysteric:

Shadowcat
Mar 26th, 2011, 02:12 PM
Hmm...yeah it's possible...but I don't think so that's the main reason.

Timariot
Mar 26th, 2011, 03:09 PM
I was doing some thinking and even though I'm reasonably new to Tennisforum, I have been following tennis for the past 5 or so years. I recently acknowledged that the quality of tennis matches seemed to have descended since about 2009. Yes, there were a couple of great matches from that time, but none like the way it was back in 2000-2007. I have come to the conclusion that the reason for such low quality matches as well as so many slumping, is due to the RoadMap. I remember they changed the rules, what 3 years ago?:confused: That if you were top 10 you had to play a certain amount of matches and be in a certain amount of places. I think that due to this extremely high demand of time, not many players have been able to work on and improve their games efficiently enough. Also, I think this is why a player like Wozniacki is able to be n1 in the world, because she is in my opinion the most physically fit player on tour, and probably the only player that is able to effectively play by those rules. The RoadMap in my opinion is why the tour is in the slump that it is currently in today. :)

The Roadmap did next to nothing to either direction. Lets also clear up the stupid myth that the players' schedule these days is heavier than in the past - it's not.

Curcubeu
Mar 26th, 2011, 03:20 PM
I think another reason (if you blame the RoadMap) is the high amount of (obligated) HC tournaments especially at the end of the year which has been one of the reasons why so many players ended their last season very early or at least played through, but only at 60% because of health problems... :shrug:

Too many Hard Court tennis is in the long run bad for the ankles and other joints, so that only the fittest player can maintain a high level´or have to skip some tourneys to recover. Not speaking about the long and exhausting tour over all continents and many countries which is very tiring at the end of the year.

A reason which has nothing to do with the RoadMap is that we are in a time of change. Many older players can't play as much tourneys as they want because their body don't allow. On the other hand we have many young players who are still struggling with consistency and fitness.

At least that's my point of view... :shrug:

IMPOSSIBLE
Mar 26th, 2011, 04:00 PM
I miss all the different tournament tiers, I think the tour is lacking the variety of tournament it did previously have.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 04:03 PM
I'm not sure what people want. This tournament has Caro, Kim, Vera, Sam, Maria, Ana, and the top men.
So did IW.

You dont like the level of play? That's partially the money they make. If Murray HAD to win, he would play better. Same for Sveta, Li

C. Drone
Mar 26th, 2011, 04:43 PM
I was doing some thinking and even though I'm reasonably new to Tennisforum, I have been following tennis for the past 5 or so years. I recently acknowledged that the quality of tennis matches seemed to have descended since about 2009. Yes, there were a couple of great matches from that time, but none like the way it was back in 2000-2007. I have come to the conclusion that the reason for such low quality matches as well as so many slumping, is due to the RoadMap. I remember they changed the rules, what 3 years ago?:confused: That if you were top 10 you had to play a certain amount of matches and be in a certain amount of places. I think that due to this extremely high demand of time, not many players have been able to work on and improve their games efficiently enough. Also, I think this is why a player like Wozniacki is able to be n1 in the world, because she is in my opinion the most physically fit player on tour, and probably the only player that is able to effectively play by those rules. The RoadMap in my opinion is why the tour is in the slump that it is currently in today. :)

top10 players minimum commitments according to rulebook
4 Premier Mandatory
4 Premier-5
2 Premier-700
4 GS (obviously)
+ YEC

this is 15 tournament/21 weeks overall. "extremely high demand of time"?

Jane Lane
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:01 PM
The Roadmap just irritates me. I just liked the Tier system better. Like when Stuttgart was indoor hard.

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:02 PM
top10 players minimum commitments according to rulebook
4 Premier Mandatory
4 Premier-5
2 Premier-700
4 GS (obviously)
+ YEC

this is 15 tournament/21 weeks overall. "extremely high demand of time"?

i think people don't get what goes into properly preparing for a tournament if you intend to go the distance and win it. most top playrs turn up a good few days before each tournament, plus they have the press commitments they must do also. it is not a case of turn up monday morning and rack upto the match court.

say a top player turns up 3 days early to each tournament on average, that is an extra 6 weeks worth of time taken up by being at tournaments. so 21 weeks has turned into 27 weeks. most players are wanting to play fed cup because of the olympics, so there is another possible 3 weeks.

so your 'only' 15 tournaments has turned into a 30 week stint of time taken.

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:17 PM
i think people don't get what goes into properly preparing for a tournament if you intend to go the distance and win it. most top playrs turn up a good few days before each tournament, plus they have the press commitments they must do also. it is not a case of turn up monday morning and rack upto the match court.

say a top player turns up 3 days early to each tournament on average, that is an extra 6 weeks worth of time taken up by being at tournaments. so 21 weeks has turned into 27 weeks. most players are wanting to play fed cup because of the olympics, so there is another possible 3 weeks.

so your 'only' 15 tournaments has turned into a 30 week stint of time taken.

Get off it. Of course of players have to invest additional time for travel and to prepare for events. But this has always been the case. Nothing has changed. The bottom line is the top players don't play any more now than they used to. In fact they play less. Tejmeglekvár's post is spot on.

C. Drone
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:23 PM
i think people don't get what goes into properly preparing for a tournament if you intend to go the distance and win it. most top playrs turn up a good few days before each tournament, plus they have the press commitments they must do also. it is not a case of turn up monday morning and rack upto the match court.

say a top player turns up 3 days early to each tournament on average, that is an extra 6 weeks worth of time taken up by being at tournaments. so 21 weeks has turned into 27 weeks. most players are wanting to play fed cup because of the olympics, so there is another possible 3 weeks.

so your 'only' 15 tournaments has turned into a 30 week stint of time taken.
comparing tournaments to weeks? :lol:

~30 week is still just half of the year.
What the fuck else they want to do?
you're talking like this is just a hobby for them.
:facepalm:

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:29 PM
If you lose early, like Sveta just did, she has a whole week off.
Losing early at IW didnt help her or Murray or Li do better in Miami

MakarovaFan
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:32 PM
i think people don't get what goes into properly preparing for a tournament if you intend to go the distance and win it. most top playrs turn up a good few days before each tournament, plus they have the press commitments they must do also. it is not a case of turn up monday morning and rack upto the match court.

say a top player turns up 3 days early to each tournament on average, that is an extra 6 weeks worth of time taken up by being at tournaments. so 21 weeks has turned into 27 weeks. most players are wanting to play fed cup because of the olympics, so there is another possible 3 weeks.

so your 'only' 15 tournaments has turned into a 30 week stint of time taken.
Have you forgotten that this is their CAREER,i mean how many jobs do you know that have you spending only 30 out of 52 weeks a year to "take time' for your profession :confused:.....these players are world class athletes and this IS their job, hell 30 weeks almost seems to low. For example if a player plays lets say 20 events a year(and mind you 20 is consdered very high now a days) and dedicates another 20 weeks to preapre, thats only 40/52 weeks a year(and again that would be a max schedule for any top player) now keep in mind VERY FEW players can reach the SF/F of all 20 events(in fact i'd say that has likely never happened) so those 40 weeks of time just got smaller.

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:40 PM
If the roadmap isnt too harsh, and I'm obviously delusional, then please explain to me why so many more players are injured than in the past? :)

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:43 PM
If the roadmap isnt too harsh, and I'm obviously delusional, then please explain to me why so many more players are injured than in the past? :)


Is this a theory or a fact? :o

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:49 PM
Is this a theory or a fact? :o

Seems to be a fact. When was the last time you remember as large of sum of injured players as there has been in the past few years?

Let's see:
Serena, Venus, Kim, Henin(retired due to her injury) Vika, both Radwanskas had to have surgery, TWICE! Maria, Aleks Wozniak Dementieva (FO). Those are all within 2010! :eek:

The RoadMap has definantly had it's effect on the players' bodies. Either that or there's something in the water :lol:.

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:56 PM
Seems to be a fact. When was the last time you remember as large of sum of injured players as there has been in the past few years?


2003/2004 had lots of top players being ill or injured for example. Most of the players you mention had injuries before the introduction of the Roadmap as well.
Right now, the only top players who I see are injured are the WS and their injuries for sure have nothing to do with the Roadmap, they were "injured" for large parts of their careers because of other reasons.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Sveta hasnt been injured, where she needed time off.
She lost early IW, lost early Miami.
That doesnt mean she is rested now for Stuttgart. Means her mental focus is not there. Its a lack of motivation, maybe.

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:06 PM
2003/2004 had lots of top players being ill or injured for example. Most of the players you mention had injuries before the introduction of the Roadmap as well.
Right now, the only top players who I see are injured are the WS and their injuries for sure have nothing to do with the Roadmap, they were "injured" for large parts of their careers because of other reasons.

You failed to acknowledge the second half of my post, where gave you evidence supporting my reasoning. :)

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:24 PM
You failed to acknowledge the second half of my post, where gave you evidence supporting my reasoning. :)


If you want to have your points acknwledged as facts then you have to compare the numbers of injuries and injured players to other years before the Roadmap was introduced. And the players you mentioned...that seems hardly a lot to me :shrug:

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:27 PM
Get off it. Of course of players have to invest additional time for travel and to prepare for events. But this has always been the case. Nothing has changed. The bottom line is the top players don't play any more now than they used to. In fact they play less. Tejmeglekvár's post is spot on.

comparing tournaments to weeks? :lol:

~30 week is still just half of the year.
What the fuck else they want to do?
you're talking like this is just a hobby for them.
:facepalm:

Have you forgotten that this is their CAREER,i mean how many jobs do you know that have you spending only 30 out of 52 weeks a year to "take time' for your profession :confused:.....these players are world class athletes and this IS their job, hell 30 weeks almost seems to low. For example if a player plays lets say 20 events a year(and mind you 20 is consdered very high now a days) and dedicates another 20 weeks to preapre, thats only 40/52 weeks a year(and again that would be a max schedule for any top player) now keep in mind VERY FEW players can reach the SF/F of all 20 events(in fact i'd say that has likely never happened) so those 40 weeks of time just got smaller.

wow i didn't think people would miss the point. if we all agree that tennis has got a tougher sport on the body these last 10-15 years and with the improvements in rackets and string the girls need to be stronger, then maybe a top player body can only compete at the top level of tennis for say 13 tournaments a year. hence why we get so many random upsets these days is because players just aren't strong enough to take the grind of 18-20 tournaments a year if they are in the top 10. it has also lead to a lot of retirments from tournaments mid match.

also if you think a top player just rests say when they lose at the french open and don't start straight away practicing on grass (last few days of the french, the week of brum) then you are mistaken! so in your calculations that is a week these lazy top players do nothing, when infact they are preparing for the switch of surface.

also a school teacher works for 8 months a year and gets 4 months paid vacation, just to put things in perspective.

for me 30 weeks tournament play/traveling/preparing is a lot for the body and players. if they are also doing say 10 weeks or more of practice when they are away from the tour. footballers moan about playing 2 matches in 4 days to put it in perspective.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:43 PM
There are certain tournaments that top players have to show up for.
I think that makes sense, otherwise, instead of paying the WTA, tournaments will take the Int'l label & pay 1 or 2 stars to show up.
The WTA wants the big stars at the big tournaments. They can lose and take the week off, if they arent 100%

If you have big tournaments with big stars, you start selling tv rights around the world. Start getting sponsors for those tournaments. Thats how majors make insane money for ITF bodies. The WTA & ATP want to have big tournaments of their own.

C. Drone
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:19 PM
wow i didn't think people would miss the point. if we all agree that tennis has got a tougher sport on the body these last 10-15 years and with the improvements in rackets and string the girls need to be stronger, then maybe a top player body can only compete at the top level of tennis for say 13 tournaments a year. hence why we get so many random upsets these days is because players just aren't strong enough to take the grind of 18-20 tournaments a year if they are in the top 10. it has also lead to a lot of retirments from tournaments mid match.

also if you think a top player just rests say when they lose at the french open and don't start straight away practicing on grass (last few days of the french, the week of brum) then you are mistaken! so in your calculations that is a week these lazy top players do nothing, when infact they are preparing for the switch of surface.

also a school teacher works for 8 months a year and gets 4 months paid vacation, just to put things in perspective.


for me 30 weeks tournament play/traveling/preparing is a lot for the body and players. if they are also doing say 10 weeks or more of practice when they are away from the tour. footballers moan about playing 2 matches in 4 days to put it in perspective.

so if Li Na gets some random injury during summer HC season, thats because she played 5 tournaments after AO. (it doesn't matter that she lost in 1st round every time, she had SO MANY TOURNAMENTS...)

"also" if you think upsets is not an indicator of deeper talent pool but "weak players", you can be labeled as narrow minded.
and "also" not a random nobody but the world #1 player proves you wrong that a player can play 18-20 tournaments at high level. She is just an alien or what?

you think teachers have 4 month payed vacation? lol :rolls:

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:22 PM
so if Li Na gets some random injury during summer HC season, thats because she played 5 tournaments after AO. (it doesn't matter that she lost in 1st round every time, she had SO MANY TOURNAMENTS...)

"also" if you think upsets is not an indicator of deeper talent pool but "weak players", you can be labeled as narrow minded.
and "also" not a random nobody but the world #1 player proves you wrong that a player can play 18-20 tournaments at high level. She is just an alien or what?

you think teachers have 4 month payed vacation? lol :rolls:

Read my original post and what i said about Caroline :rolleyes:

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:40 PM
so if Li Na gets some random injury during summer HC season, thats because she played 5 tournaments after AO. (it doesn't matter that she lost in 1st round every time, she had SO MANY TOURNAMENTS...)

"also" if you think upsets is not an indicator of deeper talent pool but "weak players", you can be labeled as narrow minded.
and "also" not a random nobody but the world #1 player proves you wrong that a player can play 18-20 tournaments at high level. She is just an alien or what?

you think teachers have 4 month payed vacation? lol :rolls:

and you think li na is only playing a match and that is it at her tournaments after the oz open :rolls:

li na is now hot property and top 10, so in addition to the flights, practice, prep for each tournament, she also has big press commitments now. so if she is suffering from some burnout after a really demanding month in australia and it leads to an injury later in the year, because she couldnt take this month off. then you can roll laughing all you like.

maybe had li been free to just decide she needs time to recover from all that went on in australia and rest and prepare till IW, instead of flying off to dubai and doha, maybe she would be winning matches in IW and miami. not just going from week to week taking the loses because she should be at the tournaments.

as for caro she is the only young player in the top 5, the wta as we have seen has started to be dominated by generally older players, older players who might not be able to cope with the kind of schedule caro can. 10-15 years ago when we had loads of young players around who could play lots of tournaments it wasn't such an issue as it is now. but as we have seen with kim, hingis, kournikova, capriati ect ect playing a heavy schedule when young has lead to early retirements of them and big problems.

the wta has to see that the top players need to be playing a light schedule to ensure they are around for years to come, fit, healthy and entering tournaments because they are fit to play and win not because they lose money, get a zero or are forced to.

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:48 PM
wow i didn't think people would miss the point. if we all agree that tennis has got a tougher sport on the body these last 10-15 years and with the improvements in rackets and string the girls need to be stronger, then maybe a top player body can only compete at the top level of tennis for say 13 tournaments a year. hence why we get so many random upsets these days is because players just aren't strong enough to take the grind of 18-20 tournaments a year if they are in the top 10. it has also lead to a lot of retirments from tournaments mid match.

also if you think a top player just rests say when they lose at the french open and don't start straight away practicing on grass (last few days of the french, the week of brum) then you are mistaken! so in your calculations that is a week these lazy top players do nothing, when infact they are preparing for the switch of surface.

also a school teacher works for 8 months a year and gets 4 months paid vacation, just to put things in perspective.

for me 30 weeks tournament play/traveling/preparing is a lot for the body and players. if they are also doing say 10 weeks or more of practice when they are away from the tour. footballers moan about playing 2 matches in 4 days to put it in perspective.

You actually do make a good point here and in doing so indentify the real reason why there there has been an increase in injuries in the last few years, albeit not as big an increase as some might suggest.

Yes, the players are fitter now than they ever have been and the physical demands on the tour are indeed greater than they ever have been. And I have no doubt the increased demands on the body off court in order to maintain a fitness that will keep a player competitive on the tour is leading to more injuries. As has been pointed out, a tennis player's work is about much more than the few weeks a year that the players is actually competing in tournaments.

However, if you take a look at the player's who have been injured you will notice this...they is very little correlation between the amount of tournaments a player plays and the amount they are injured.

Simply, if there is a cause for an increase in injuries on the tour it is not because of the road map and demands on the players to play more tournaments, it is the self-impossed demands that the players face when they are in the gym. Staying fit enough to compete on the tour is a year round demand and that is regardless of how many tournaments a player may plays.

Lessening the amount of tournaments a player plays will not significantly alter the amount of injuries they incur. The only way the WTA could achieve that is by asking all the players on the tour to ease up on their time in the gym and that in this day and age that is not feasible.

Direwolf
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:52 PM
NO! Blame these top players for not practicing hard enough to be consistent!

Plus the lack of talent.

MakarovaFan
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:58 PM
If the roadmap isnt too harsh, and I'm obviously delusional, then please explain to me why so many more players are injured than in the past? :)
Poor conditioning and lazier players.......obviously with the higher intensity and stronger players now a days it means your training has to be even more intense than before so if a player isnt as fit as before yet tries to play with these players,then chances for injuries are higher!

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:00 PM
You actually do make a good point here and in doing so indentify the real reason why there there has been an increase in injuries in the last few years, albeit not as big an increase as some might suggest.

Yes, the players are fitter now than they ever have been and the physical demands on the tour are indeed greater than they ever have been. And I have no doubt the increased demands on the body off court in order to maintain a fitness that will keep a player competitive on the tour is leading to more injuries. As has been pointed out, a tennis player's work is about much more than the few weeks a year that the players is actually competing in tournaments.

However, if you take a look at the player's who have been injured you will notice this...they is very little correlation between the amount of tournaments a player plays and the amount they are injured.

Simply, if there is a cause for an increase in injuries on the tour it is not because of the road map and demands on the players to play more tournaments, it is the self-impossed demands that the players face when they are in the gym. Staying fit enough to compete on the tour is a year round demand and that is regardless of how many tournaments a player may plays.

Lessening the amount of tournaments a player plays will not significantly alter the amount of injuries they incur. The only way the WTA could achieve that is by asking all the players on the tour to ease up on their time in the gym and that in this day and age that is not feasible.

i disagree. with the sport going the way it is going and becoming more demanding, the players have to listen to their bodies, not the roadmap. so when vika is injured during the clay season but plays on through it reriring left right and center then the roadmap is making things worse. the same with caro during the clay season last year.

lets take kim, she knew her shoulder was sore, had she had the freedom of a schedule i don't think we would have seen her in IW and retriring mid match.

as far as i'm concerned you have to listen to your body and not the road map and the wta needs to learn this.

Direwolf
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:06 PM
Poor conditioning and lazier players.......obviously with the higher intensity and stronger players now a days it means your training has to be even more intense than before so if a player isnt as fit as before yet tries to play with these players,then chances for injuries are higher!

So you meant to say players nowadays are stronger than 10 years ago?
Doesn't have to be intense, but consistent.

Murray nowadays have more time for photoshoots and cutieshoots.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:08 PM
There is no way to stop injuries. When you get the best players in a big tournament, then not having a few doesnt hurt as much.
That's why a billionaire like Larry Ellison bought the IW tournament
Ellison is the kind of people the WTA & ATP want to be in business with.

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:10 PM
i disagree. with the sport going the way it is going and becoming more demanding, the players have to listen to their bodies, not the roadmap. so when vika is injured during the clay season but plays on through it reriring left right and center then the roadmap is making things worse. the same with caro during the clay season last year.

lets take kim, she knew her shoulder was sore, had she had the freedom of a schedule i don't think we would have seen her in IW and retriring mid match.

as far as i'm concerned you have to listen to your body and not the road map and the wta needs to learn this.

I'm honestly not sure Clijsters is the best example for what you are trying to say but I do agree that there are players who do make a mistake by playing when they are not fit to. But again there are plenty who simply do not. At the end of the day, if a player plays with an injury that is the responsibility of the player not the roadmap.

Certainly I do agree players do need to listen to their bodies. However, that is very different than saying that they are playing too much. Providing a player is fit they should have no problem playing 20 events in a year. Many players manage this just fine.

MakarovaFan
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:12 PM
wow i didn't think people would miss the point. if we all agree that tennis has got a tougher sport on the body these last 10-15 years and with the improvements in rackets and string the girls need to be stronger, then maybe a top player body can only compete at the top level of tennis for say 13 tournaments a year. hence why we get so many random upsets these days is because players just aren't strong enough to take the grind of 18-20 tournaments a year if they are in the top 10. it has also lead to a lot of retirments from tournaments mid match.

also if you think a top player just rests say when they lose at the french open and don't start straight away practicing on grass (last few days of the french, the week of brum) then you are mistaken! so in your calculations that is a week these lazy top players do nothing, when infact they are preparing for the switch of surface.

also a school teacher works for 8 months a year and gets 4 months paid vacation, just to put things in perspective.

for me 30 weeks tournament play/traveling/preparing is a lot for the body and players. if they are also doing say 10 weeks or more of practice when they are away from the tour. footballers moan about playing 2 matches in 4 days to put it in perspective.
First of all have you seen teachers salaries these days.........and teachers DONT get 4 months paid vacaion,they get 2 for the summer, plus 3 weeks over the course of the year!

Now,these players are world class professional athletes so if they can't play more than 15 events or train more than 30 weeks out of 52 freaking weeks then they have issues!!
Also people injuries don't automatically stem from "a tough schedule", they arise from poor conditioning,poor nutrition,freak occurences or just a weak/tender body part.

Betten
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:15 PM
In Soviet Russia, RoadMap blames you!

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:17 PM
No RoadMap will save you from stepping on broken glass.:tape:

Seriously can't you see guys the OP's uncovered intent to bash Caro? If she/he want to justify Caro's success with the fact that the rules has changed, then maybe we should agree and save that person from having nightmares? Be kind, people, ffs.:rolleyes:

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:21 PM
I'm honestly not sure Clijsters is the best example for what you are trying to say but I do agree that there are players who do make a mistake by playing when they are not fit to. But again there are plenty who simply do not. At the end of the day, if a player plays with an injury that is the responsibility of the player not the roadmap.

Certainly I do agree players do need to listen to their bodies. However, that is very different than saying that they are playing too much. Providing a player is fit they should have no problem playing 20 events in a year. Many players manage this just fine.

i'm trying to make the point that the a more flexible schedule for the top womens players would be better. kim might be able to manage 15 tournaments a year, but 15 when she is fit and her home life is right to travel. take for example she is playing rosmalen the week before wimbledon, i think that means she cant play linz or luxembourg, which may be a lot more suitable to her and her body and life than tokyo. or say vika getting injured during the clay season, if she could have skipped those tournaments and not incurred zero pointers, fines and loss of bonus pool money and made up for it by playing tournaments elsewhere laster in the year surely that would have been a good thing?

the men can take the grind of a set schedule, i don't think the women can.

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:31 PM
No RoadMap will save you from stepping on broken glass.:tape:

Seriously can't you see guys the OP's uncovered intent to bash Caro? If she/he want to justify Caro's success with the fact that the rules has changed, then maybe we should agree and save that person from having nightmares? Be kind, people, ffs.:rolleyes:

YOUR PSYCHOTIC! This has nothing to do with bashing Caroline. wtf is your problem? seriously. You are obsessed with defending her, when here in this thread she's not even being attacked :fiery:

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:34 PM
YOUR PSYCHOTIC! This has nothing to do with bashing Caroline. wtf is your problem? seriously. You are obsessed with defending her, when here in this thread she's not even being attacked :fiery:Your point is that quality is down. I would say that few players can maintain high quality.
You just saw Bartoli beat Ivanovic, easily beat Wickmayer, take a set off Caro.
But she cant do that all the time. Ana cant play her best all the time.
The players cant be their best all the time. This is not a desk job. Its a difficult job to do well.

*Nefertiti*
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:37 PM
WTA lacks real talent. It is not going to last I hope and an exceptional talent is going to rises soon.

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:37 PM
Your point is that quality is down. I would say that few players can maintain high quality.
You just saw Bartoli beat Ivanovic, easily beat Wickmayer, take a set off Caro.
But she cant do that all the time. Ana cant play her best all the time.
The players cant be their best all the time. This is not a desk job. Its a difficult job to do well.

Yes this is precisely my point that the quality is down like you said and I think that it is due to the roadmap, that it has made it harder to produce as high quality tennis as before. I can't believe tea would think it's about caroline. :lol:

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:41 PM
I know you want a superstar who wins every match 61 62, but those are rare.
It might not happen again for a while. This is a transition stage where the older players are getting more injuries than they used to, and none of the younger players have stepped up in a major yet.
Part of that is the money in the sport. They can make a great living without showing their best at the end of a major.

I agree that the leader of the young, Wozniacki, needs to play better late in majors. She's improving and I think it might happen.
But I dont think the roadmap is stopping greatness in players.

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:47 PM
YOUR PSYCHOTIC! This has nothing to do with bashing Caroline. wtf is your problem? seriously. You are obsessed with defending her, when here in this thread she's not even being attacked :fiery:
Should write you're instead of your. Are you from the UK indeed? Don't skip school in that case.:hug:

Anyway I suggest you to read the board's rules before you starting provocative threads. Your attack was as obvious as they get. You said Roadmap ruined the tour and many players' careers but Wozniacki's. Basically said to diminish her achievements. Hater!

*Nefertiti*
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:47 PM
I know you want a superstar who wins every match 61 62, but those are rare.


Actually no, I want to see real competition and quality matches between stars. I want to watch Federer, Nadal and Djokovic in WTA.

Burisleif
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:52 PM
Actually no, I want to see real competition and quality matches between stars. I want to watch Federer, Nadal and Djokovic in WTA.

I think they are busy playing on the ATP, or are you suggesting compulsory testosterone injections?

*Nefertiti*
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:06 PM
I think they are busy playing on the ATP, or are you suggesting compulsory testosterone injections?

I mean female players with similar quality of tennis, not the same tennis, but similar effect on tennis. I want to see Navratilova, Billie Jean, Evert, Graf, etc

pov
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:11 PM
The bottom line is the top players don't play any more now than they used to. In fact they play less.
Yep.

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:16 PM
I mean female players with similar quality of tennis, not the same tennis, but similar effect on tennis. I want to see Navratilova, Billie Jean, Evert, Graf, etc
Go torrent sites, they have lots of retro. And stop loading us...

*Nefertiti*
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:21 PM
Go torrent sites, they have lots of retro. And stop loading us...

I guess I was wrong when I though we could have a real discussion between grown ups here. Sorry.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:28 PM
I guess I was wrong when I though we could have a real discussion between grown ups here. Sorry.When you say you want Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.. well, Serena, Kim and Caro are all pretty good.
The problem is that they dont play each other. Kim played Serena and Caroline in a row at the 2009 USO. But after that, just the 2010 YEC final.
The top men play each other a lot. That's something the WTA doesnt have.
I'm not sure why, besides Serena's health. Caro was 1 point from the AO final, Kim was on her way to the IW final. But they dont meet enough.

Juju Nostalgique
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:21 PM
Bring back the Tiers, throw the Pusherniaski to the rubbish bin and tennis will shine again! :rocker: :rocker: :rocker:

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:01 PM
Bring back the Tiers, throw the Pusherniaski to the rubbish bin and tennis will shine again! :rocker: :rocker: :rocker:These kinds of troll posts derail a tennis discussion.
Wozniacki made the SF in 10 of her last 11 tournaments, 8 finals, 6 titles, $4 million in prizemoeny, thats about $350,000 per tournament.
Somebody has to start beating her to keep her out of big semis and finals

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:01 PM
i disagree. with the sport going the way it is going and becoming more demanding, the players have to listen to their bodies, not the roadmap. so when vika is injured during the clay season but plays on through it reriring left right and center then the roadmap is making things worse. the same with caro during the clay season last year.

lets take kim, she knew her shoulder was sore, had she had the freedom of a schedule i don't think we would have seen her in IW and retriring mid match.

as far as i'm concerned you have to listen to your body and not the road map and the wta needs to learn this.


No, the players need to learn this. :lol:

I repeat some points that were already made in this thread:

1. Under the Roadmap, the players have to play less than before.

2. Therer's no significant correlation between the amount of tournaments a player plays and the amount of injuries she gets.

That said, I don't think that the Roadmap is perfect. There are too many tournaments on HC, too many tournaments in Asia etc. We can discuss that. But I'm not seeing any evidence that the Roadmap is responsible for any more injuries :shrug:

The Roadmap is a compromise. Players have to fulfill their committments and play a certain amount of big tournaments, and for that they are getting more money, have to play less tournaments than before and they have a longer off-season.

Some top players (like Woz) want to play more than they are allowed to now. Some players want to play less. It is a compromise.

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:22 PM
No, the players need to learn this. :lol:

I repeat some points that were already made in this thread:

1. Under the Roadmap, the players have to play less than before.

2. Therer's no significant correlation between the amount of tournaments a player plays and the amount of injuries she gets.

That said, I don't think that the Roadmap is perfect. There are too many tournaments on HC, too many tournaments in Asia etc. We can discuss that. But I'm not seeing any evidence that the Roadmap is responsible for any more injuries :shrug:

The Roadmap is a compromise. Players have to fulfill their committments and play a certain amount of big tournaments, and for that they are getting more money, have to play less tournaments than before and they have a longer off-season.

Some top players (like Woz) want to play more than they are allowed to now. Some players want to play less. It is a compromise.

are you and like 90% of the posters on here deliberately ignoring the point? :tape:

it is not playing MORE with the roadmap, it is being forced to play at certain times. thus causing players to turn up at tournaments either not wanting to play or carrying injuries (even your beloved caro did this during the clay season).

for me beyond the slams and YEC the top players should be allowed to pick their own schedule, play when they want and hopefully then put in good performances and only play when fit.

i seriously think the wta needs to give the players freedom on this, if they seriously want to cut down on injuries and players tanking

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:31 PM
are you and like 90% of the posters on here deliberately ignoring the point? :tape:

it is not playing MORE with the roadmap, it is being forced to play at certain times. thus causing players to turn up at tournaments either not wanting to play or carrying injuries (even your beloved caro did this during the clay season).

for me beyond the slams and YEC the top players should be allowed to pick their own schedule, play when they want and hopefully then put in good performances and only play when fit.

i seriously think the wta needs to give the players freedom on this, if they seriously want to cut down on injuries and players tanking


1. The WTA cannot allow the top players to play whereever, whenever they want. WTA wants to have rivalries and want the top players to play each other. That was the idea of the Roadmap.

2. The WTA or the Roadmap are not responsible for player playing injured when they shouldn't. And I'm the first to criticize when "my beloved Caro" plays injured or schedules stupidly.

3. If it's not about players having to play more, then maybe they should change their mentality. Let's start with Kim and the WS.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:33 PM
..
for me beyond the slams and YEC the top players should be allowed to pick their own schedule, play when they want and hopefully then put in good performances and only play when fit.

i seriously think the wta needs to give the players freedom on this, if they seriously want to cut down on injuries and players tankingYou are childish if you believe this. Its a business. They need most of the big names in the big tournaments. For sponsors, tv rights, to make a profit.

n1_and_uh_noone
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:39 PM
When you say you want Federer, Nadal, Djokovic.. well, Serena, Kim and Caro are all pretty good.
The problem is that they dont play each other. Kim played Serena and Caroline in a row at the 2009 USO. But after that, just the 2010 YEC final.
The top men play each other a lot. That's something the WTA doesnt have.
I'm not sure why, besides Serena's health. Caro was 1 point from the AO final, Kim was on her way to the IW final. But they dont meet enough.

WEll, for one, there are 9 Masters 1000 events, of which 8 are mandatory (and Monte Carlo is a highly prestigious event so most top guys play it anyway). There are 4 mandatory events on the WTA outside the GS (IW, Miami, Madrid, Beijing), of which 2 are new in terms of being mandatory. So the top level of events outside the Slams are a prestigious line-up on the ATP, with decent historical standings, which is not so on the WTA.

Add to that the fact that most women players are weak on clay, so you can conceivably rule out the top players meeting often at Madrid. Then, IW+Miami happening back-to-back is not good news for those doing well at IW.

Shvedbarilescu
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Some very good points here by Matt01 and goldenlox which I fully agree with.

Quite simply, the top players are making a huge amount of money, doing something thousands of other woman would dream of doing. That does not mean they are entitled to be pampered. It is quite right that they should be prepared to properly support the organisation that is providing them the opportunity to earn all this cash.

We all agree there are occasions when a player is not fit to play a tournament and in this instance it is right that they pull out. It is also quite fair that by pulling out the player loses out on bonuses and earns less money. If a player choses to play injured so as to hold onto their bonuses that is the player's choice and as such whatever consequences occur from the decision are the player's responsibility. However, injuries aside, it is quite justified to expect one's top tier players to be able to commit to a tours top tier events.

sammy01
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:55 PM
1. The WTA cannot allow the top players to play whereever, whenever they want. WTA wants to have rivalries and want the top players to play each other. That was the idea of the Roadmap.

2. The WTA or the Roadmap are not responsible for player playing injured when they shouldn't. And I'm the first to criticize when "my beloved Caro" plays injured or schedules stupidly.

3. If it's not about players having to play more, then maybe they should change their mentality. Let's start with Kim and the WS.


1. what are these rivalries? how has kim tanking IW, caro and vika showing up to retire/play injured during the clay season last year encouraged such great rivalries? didn't davenport and venus face each other 20+ times, kim and henin 20+ times, hingis and davenport a load of times, venus and serena near enough 20 times and they played in the era where you could pick your own schedule.

2. the roadmap encourages players to play injured by giving them 0 pointers and fines if they pull out injured. plus losing out on bonus pool money.

3. those players you name had the right mentality, to turn up and win. age maybe stopping them from winning on a consistent basis but they never played tournament for 'the sake of it' until the last couple of years.


i have said it before, if a tournament puts on a good event the players will flock to it anyway, such as stuttgart and san diego. the wta sold out getting rid of many of these tournaments like san diego, zurich, AI ect not because the top players didn't play them, or even because people didn't attend them, because china, doha, dubai, tokyo can offer more money.

those tournaments named have brought their spots on the calendar, and believe me if some of them weren't mandatory or with huge amounts of cash on offer the top players would never flock to them like they did san diego, AI, zurich ect.

having tournaments on that the players WANT to play even if less prizemoney is bar far the best way of building rivalries. as the players turn upto win the tournaments, not just because they don't wanna be fined and don't give it 100%.

Burisleif
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:01 AM
Some very good points here by Matt01 and goldenlox which I fully agree with.

Quite simply, the top players are making a huge amount of money, doing something thousands of other woman would dream of doing. That does not mean they are entitled to be pampered. It is quite right that they should be prepared to properly support the organisation that is providing them the opportunity to earn all this cash.

We all agree there are occasions when a player is not fit to play a tournament and in this instance it is right that they pull out. It is also quite fair that by pulling out the player loses out on bonuses and earns less money. If a player choses to play injured so as to hold onto their bonuses that is the player's choice and as such whatever consequences occur from the decision are the player's responsibility. However, injuries aside, it is quite justified to expect one's top tier players to be able to commit to a tours top tier events.

The issue of playing injured in Caroline's case was one pertaining to the rules for being allowed to play international events. Had she chosen not to play (as she had wished) she would not have been allowed to play Copenhagen, an event organised by her personal sponsor, and her home event. So while I think its fine fine the 0 point system if a player does not fulfil their duty to the tour, I think its strange that they should be punished twice (by limiting internationals), for which players might also have contractual obligations. It would also seem to be counter productive for recovery from injury, for which a lesser standard event might be beneficial in getting back in shape, there being little benefit of being nocked out in the first round of a higher grade event?

goldenlox
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:08 AM
Thats why Caroline wanted to be on the player's council. There's still some compromising the WTA has to do.
But they want the top players at the biggest events.

terjw
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:16 AM
are you and like 90% of the posters on here deliberately ignoring the point? :tape:

it is not playing MORE with the roadmap, it is being forced to play at certain times. thus causing players to turn up at tournaments either not wanting to play or carrying injuries (even your beloved caro did this during the clay season).

for me beyond the slams and YEC the top players should be allowed to pick their own schedule, play when they want and hopefully then put in good performances and only play when fit.

i seriously think the wta needs to give the players freedom on this, if they seriously want to cut down on injuries and players tanking

I think the basic aims of the roadmap are good. There's just too many rules.

I agree that players should be free to pick their own schedule. And that should include the slams and YEC. The big tournaments should be such that the players want to play them - not are told they have to play them.

Incidentally - why do you have a need to say except the slams and YEC and that they should be compulsory. Do you honestly believe the reason any player is/has played in a any slam is because the roadmap says it's mandatory and they wouldn't be playing otherwise? :lol::lol:.

This is what I would like to see:

Get rid of ordering any player to play or not play any tournament.
.
If a player chooses not to play a big tournament - they lose out on ranking points with a zero pointer. Just as they lose out on winning any prize-money there.
.
If a player wants to play MM tournaments like their home tournament - they can play MMs as much as they like. BUT they won't gain much in ranking points from it. A max of 1 or 2 of these tournaments should be allowed to count for ranking points.
.
Of course - if you keep skipping lots of big tournaments and your ranking really suffers - then you might not qualify for tournaments by right. But there's always WCs if the tournament wants you.
.
With increased freedom to set their own schedule - players should be expected to honour their committments.
.
So a mechanism whereby players can indicate intentions at the beginning of the season for their schedule but don't have to commit to a tournament until say 2 weeks beforehand.
.
A mechanism whereby top players with an injury can indicate to
the tournament as early as possible that they would like to play but the likelihood they will have recovered is in doubt -e.g 50%, 90% and the tournament decides whether they will conditionally accept that player or not.
.
With these safegauards - there should be no excuse for late withdrawals out the blue. These should continue to be pernalesed very heavily - even more so than now because there is really no excuse other than a really freak injury or illness at the last moment which should be rare.The last three points would need to be monitored by and verified and published by the WTA.

It wouldn't prevent injuries - but it gives the player freedom to do what's best for herself. And it is an attempt to put some honesty back into the game - for tournaments, WTA and players.

sammy01
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:22 AM
@terjw - i say the slams and YEC should be mandatory becuase those are the only tournaments i believe players should get a zero for skipping ;)

i agree about players should be allowed to play MM tournaments if they like, just have it so only the best 2 count towards top 10 players rankings and only 3 for the 11 to 20 ranked players. any player outside the top 20 should be free to do as they like and any tournament count towards their ranking.

Burisleif
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:34 AM
Considering that Tennis is having in some cases to pay to get its self on television, not having any form of guarantee of players being at events, than We will ebd up in a very precarious situation. As it is they are already planing to merge ATP WTA coverage contracts, which could quite easily mean a lot less WTA on TV and only on expensive pay per view. Is that what we want?

sammy01
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Considering that Tennis is having in some cases to pay to get its self on television, not having any form of guarantee of players being at events, than We will ebd up in a very precarious situation. As it is they are already planing to merge ATP WTA coverage contracts, which could quite easily mean a lot less WTA on TV and only on expensive pay per view. Is that what we want?

isn't that what most of us have now? the only womens tennis i see is on eurosport which is a sky or virgin media channel.

again this is another of my points that womens tennis is a niche market that needs to keep that. sky are never going to have the womens tournaments on their sky sports channels, so having seperate tournaments where europort gets to pick its coverage, not be thrown the odd scrap matches with a NB start time squeazed inbetween the mens matches isn't going to help any.

Burisleif
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:48 AM
isn't that what most of us have now? the only womens tennis i see is on eurosport which is a sky or virgin media channel.

again this is another of my points that womens tennis is a niche market that needs to keep that. sky are never going to have the womens tournaments on their sky sports channels, so having seperate tournaments where europort gets to pick its coverage, not be thrown the odd scrap matches with a NB start time squeazed inbetween the mens matches isn't going to help any.

Eurosport is a lot cheaper than Sky. And players not showing up reduce the WTA bargaining power. That leads to seeking joint deals. With a Joint deal (Eurosport are unlikely to afford that?) and only so many channels, it would seem likely to me that we will have a lot less WTA in relation to ATP.

Players need to show up... Fans need to pay up, for that players need to show up, etc. etc.

terjw
Mar 27th, 2011, 01:52 AM
]@terjw - i say the slams and YEC should be mandatory becuase those are the only tournaments i believe players should get a zero for skipping ;)[/b]

i agree about players should be allowed to play MM tournaments if they like, just have it so only the best 2 count towards top 10 players rankings and only 3 for the 11 to 20 ranked players. any player outside the top 20 should be free to do as they like and any tournament count towards their ranking.

The fundamental difference between us then is that I think players should get zero points for not playing the big tournaments as it is now. Basically that a player can play what they like - but ranking-wise if you miss the big tournaments - you don't get the points. It's the ridiculous compulsion to play that is the problem. Not the ranking points. If a player plays injured to get the ranking points - well then that's their decision and they have no-one to blame but themselves if it makes the injury worse. No-one would making them or telling them to play.