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tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:29 AM
I think it is most unfortunate that tennis has the terminology “unforced error” to describe a certain scoring play. The most troublesome aspect of the term is the super negative connotation. Now in some cases the negative connotation is justified. Example a ball lands midway between service line and base line with no particular speed or spin to make the return difficult and yet the player strikes the ball into the net; ergo clearly a true unforced error.

OK so we have another scenario; in an intense rally the player sees she can win the point if she hits the ball right on the base line as her opponent cannot get there in time. Now if the ball does hit the base line it is a winner but if it misses even as little as a millimeter it is a lost point and scored as an unforced error. The lost point of course is scored as an unforced error since the player had the option and clearly could have done so by aiming the ball say 6 inches within the baseline. (My apologies for mixing the measurement forms- I trust each reader can follow my distinctions). However had she done so her opponent could have arrived in time for a return ergo that is why she tried to hit the base line in the first place.

As I understand the focus of the criticisms of the Caro haters, it is centered on the statistical fact that she does not have many winners and ergo wins matches because her opponents make more UEs. I have seen Caro haters state exactly that in various threads herein. Just as an aside I’ve never understood that criticism on its face value- if you win such a match it is a legitimate win it is recorded as a win- you do not get an extra win because you hit more winners and the UEs were not a factor. But really to confront Caro haters in strategically terms is it wiser to try and hit the baseline and gamble you get it in or is it wiser to play a safer point when trying to hit a winner?

In reviewing the semi final match against Sharapova and the final match against Bartoli in the recent IW tourney, objectively one has to conclude that Caroline Wozniaki is a hell of a great tennis player with a sound game and a sound game plan. In the Sharapova match she won the first set 6-1 despite having only one winner. The sneers at such a statistic are not well founded. If one examines Maria’s UEs in totality in that set there were not too many give aways in UEs- most were as a result of trying for a winner or trying to up the pace to get to hit a winner. In fact despite losing 1-6 one can legitimately say Maria was playing fairly well and she was being trounced simply because Caro was so much better.

In the first game against Bartoli which Caro won at fifteen saw her hit three winners. Each winner was well within the lines- truly all were very safe winners. The point is considering the caliber of play in the WTA you seldom get the opportunity to hit a safe winner. Thus if you are determined to pursue such a strategy then obviously your wins will more often be as a result that your opponent has committed more UEs as opposed to you having more winners.

My final point to Caro haters: if you hate her because she is a blonde than at least you have a rational reason for hating her; she is a blonde. But if you hate her because her method of winning is unsound then you are out to lunch.

thegreendestiny
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:54 AM
Don't you get it? Whoever is No.1 in the rankings is also enemy No.1 in this board. I noticed that the hatred here and the number of slams are inversely proportional for a top ranked player.

My only wish is that the Caro bashing will eventually soften and posters here sympathize with her when she free falls from the ranking.

goldenlox
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:56 AM
Haters are not rational. Dont let them bother you.
Most just like to insult players they dont root for.
Caroline is holding 8 titles, 6 of them Premiers, and she doesnt defend a Premier until Rogers Cup, which is still 5 months away.
She might be holding 10 Premiers by then. She is a consistent high quality player.
The rest of the tour has to deal with that, so do fans of those players.

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:56 AM
My final point to Caro haters: if you hate her because she is a blonde than at least you have a rational reason for hating her; she is a blonde. But if you hate her because her method of winning is unsound then you are out to lunch.


I didn't read the whole post but I found that to be funny :lol:

bmxbandit
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:03 AM
Tl;dr

thegreendestiny
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:05 AM
My final point to Caro haters: if you hate her because she is a blonde than at least you have a rational reason for hating her; she is a blonde. But if you hate her because her method of winning is unsound then you are out to lunch.

:weirdo:

Nobody hated Kim, Steffi and Maria because they were blonde.

Shadowcat
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:17 AM
Haters will be haters. Nuff said.

CloudAtlas
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:22 AM
:weirdo:

Nobody hated Kim, Steffi and Maria because they were blonde.


Oh God. I don't think the sarcasm in that post could have been any more obvious. :confused:

I've said on here before that most of her hatred on here stems from the fans of so called 'better players' who she has beaten , but those who go for more winners and this fixation with winners gives fans of those players a false sense of entitlement , that their favourite 'deserves' the win. They seem to think keeping the ball in play means 'not doing anything' , when they cannot see the obvious irony , since it is the mere fact that their favourite could not keep the ball in play which meant that they lost against the Woz. They are as brainless as their favourite players.

shoparound
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:47 AM
Nobody hated Kim lol.

moby
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:20 AM
My final point to Caro haters: if you hate her because she is a blonde than at least you have a rational reason for hating her; she is a blonde. But if you hate her because her method of winning is unsound then you are out to lunch.She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing.

Given time, she can set-up some nice plays though.
This is her as a 16 year old, playing Hingis.

oXM4aNf-KGA

Mikey.
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:23 AM
Tl;dr

Ikr :lol:

duhcity
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:33 AM
She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing.

Given time, she can set-up some nice plays though.
This is her as a 16/17 year old, playing Hingis.

oXM4aNf-KGA

That court could make anyone look good :hearts:

tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:26 AM
She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing...



Yes I have seen that sentiment expressed before and that is just a croc. To be able to return what would be a winner against most other players is to my mind a much more spectacular skill than smashing an easy putaway. In the final against Bartoli, Caro won three points on unbelievable returns; one of them in the final game that brought the score to 30-30. Caro returned a smash from Marion that was simply breathtaking.

moby
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:39 AM
Yes I have seen that sentiment expressed before and that is just a croc. To be able to return what would be a winner against most other players is to my mind a much more spectacular skill than smashing an easy putaway. In the final against Bartoli, Caro won three points on unbelievable returns; one of them in the final game that brought the score to 30-30. Caro returned a smash from Marion that was simply breathtaking.That was indeed a good get, but there are players who make incredible retrievals look better than Caro does.
They are also capable of amazing shot-making, which is very different from "smashing an easy putaway".
Caroline Wozniacki just has a slightly awkward way of hitting the ball. Turning the body and uncoiling it is ideal for hitting a heavy ball, but the way she does it seems a tad uncoordinated, almost as though she's flinging her torso forward. And that's just her groundstrokes.

I suggest you watch more tennis if you've not seen these players. Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters, Serena Williams, Venus Williams are all good places to start with.

Dani12
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:53 AM
She needs a new fist pump. Then her game would be alright to watch.

tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:20 AM
Caroline Wozniacki just has a slightly awkward way of hitting the ball. Turning the body and uncoiling it is ideal for hitting a heavy ball, but the way she does it seems a tad uncoordinated, almost as though she's flinging her torso forward. And that's just her groundstrokes.

I suspect these deficiencies are not what inspires the animus against her.

young_gunner913
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:29 AM
She needs a new fist pump. Then her game would be alright to watch.

No one likes watching people fist pump on errors.

Mikey.
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:37 AM
No one likes watching people fist pump on errors.

:tears:

tea
Mar 23rd, 2011, 08:38 AM
To understand the origin of Caro haters' issues we should go a couple of years back. Only a lazy hater didn't bash her for being a pusher, boring, poor h2h-er etc back then. Their typical day didn't start and end well unless they count how many winners the girl hit. If she lost, it was because she's a bad player; if she won, it was unpleasant view nonetheless, and the opponent let her win anyway. The leading idea was that the girl will never be any good. You gotta feel for them now that all their former estimates, umm assurances were turned out to be wrong. Even for mature people it's not always easy to admit how wrong they were, years long. Really a no-win situation. In their place I'd probably burn with shame.

I'm thinking it would be great if instead of couple of admins TF had a staff psychotherapist to help people overcome problems of this sort. Tennis takes big part of our lives, so it's natural that sometimes it affects our state of mind.:awww:

Beat
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:04 AM
She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing.

this.

i don't hate wozniacki at all and the amount of stick she's getting on this board is simply ridiculous. i think she deserves all her success and i'm sure she's working hard for it. but on the other hand, watching her play doesn't exactly excite me, there's a lot about her game that i find - as moby puts it - aesthetically unpleasing. and i can fully understand people who think she's boredom incarnate.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:06 AM
It's been said a million times, no one thinks her game is ineffective; clearly her results beg to differ. It's just an ugly game for many of us. AFAIK, Serena, Kim, Venus and Justine in their prime(And Serena/Kim now,) could all defend pretty much just as well as Caroline in their own different ways, and yet they all had three times as much offensive prowess, even on defense. She's got a good backhand - but nothing out of this world, poor forehand, decent serve but it doesn't win her very many points or even put her in winning position early, not very good at the net... Sorry, but she's just a good athlete with a lot of stamina.

You guys talk about "haters" being so obsessed with her, but it seems to me a lot of you are more obsessed with them. If someone doesn't like Caro so be it - Do you want to COMMAND them who they can/can not like and why? Should I now start making several threads in GM convincing people to like my favorites, and tell them what are and aren't valid reasons to like/dislike them?

bandabou
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:11 AM
Her game is effective..but just so uninspiring. As others have stated: there's NOTHING remarkable about Caro. Movement is odd, specially going to the forehand...forehand is non-existent, serve is passable. Only kinda elite shot is the backhand.

But as long as she wins matches, then no problemos right? besides...the test isn't IW. The test is RG, Wimbledon, U.S. open. Can she finally at least reach another F at a major again?

doomsday
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:24 AM
She is boring, there isn't just ONE point you want to yell; what a shot. She just run on every ball, get a lot of balls back with a weird way. She is uninspiring, like I said as long as she wins IW I'm fine. She needs to stay away from majors.

Slutiana
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:31 AM
That was indeed a good get, but there are players who make incredible retrievals look better than Caro does.
They are also capable of amazing shot-making, which is very different from "smashing an easy putaway".
Caroline Wozniacki just has a slightly awkward way of hitting the ball. Turning the body and uncoiling it is ideal for hitting a heavy ball, but the way she does it seems a tad uncoordinated, almost as though she's flinging her torso forward. And that's just her groundstrokes.

I suggest you watch more tennis if you've not seen these players. Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters, Serena Williams, Venus Williams are all good places to start with.
Agreed 100%.

And as well as she done over the last 8 months, I find it hard to really get behind her when her biggest rival has been Vera Zvonareva.

madmax
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:42 AM
It's been said a million times, no one thinks her game is ineffective; clearly her results beg to differ. It's just an ugly game for many of us. AFAIK, Serena, Kim, Venus and Justine in their prime(And Serena/Kim now,) could all defend pretty much just as well as Caroline in their own different ways, and yet they all had three times as much offensive prowess, even on defense. She's got a good backhand - but nothing out of this world, poor forehand, decent serve but it doesn't win her very many points or even put her in winning position early, not very good at the net... Sorry, but she's just a good athlete with a lot of stamina.

You guys talk about "haters" being so obsessed with her, but it seems to me a lot of you are more obsessed with them. If someone doesn't like Caro so be it - Do you want to COMMAND them who they can/can not like and why? Should I now start making several threads in GM convincing people to like my favorites, and tell them what are and aren't valid reasons to like/dislike them?

very well said...the amount of moaning from Wozniacki fans is the exact reason why she is not liked on these boards. That and her dull and uninspiring playing style of course. None of her matches are exciting or inspiring - all of them are definition of "grinding it out", whether she wins them or loses. I remember poor Safina being slammed even more here when she was World's best ranked player, yet she didn't have an army of paranoid protectors, whining and moaning non-stop about it. And it's not like any successful player isn't hated anyway...

doomsday
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:59 AM
Just saw the match vs Sharapova, Maria was spraying errors all over the court:lol: Push was hitting really shorts balls, middle of the courts and Maria was just hitting straight ahead, she didn't even try to choose a side :help: she was useless/hopeless and Woz did a great job bringing all the balls, Maria self destructed out there. Pathetic match.

goldenlox
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:08 AM
Just saw the match vs Sharapova, Maria was spraying errors all over the court:lol: Push was hitting really shorts balls, middle of the courts and Maria was just hitting straight ahead, she didn't even try to choose a side :help: she was useless/hopeless and Woz did a great job bringing all the balls, Maria self destructed out there. Pathetic match.It was a pathetic match from Maria's side. So goof on her. If you need to insult. "Push" is an insult.
For Caro it was a routine win in route to a 5th straight Tier I title

Olórin
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:11 AM
Not sure about the WTA, but this forum lately has looked like getting back to its peak :happy:

doomsday
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:44 AM
It was a pathetic match from Maria's side. So goof on her. If you need to insult. "Push" is an insult.
For Caro it was a routine win in route to a 5th straight Tier I title

5 winners and 18UE she was also pathetic for her standards.

goldenlox
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:45 AM
5 winners and 18UE she was also pathetic for her standards.I dont think Maria wants to be a doormat for Caro to just walk over.
If there is any problem in the 2 recent matches they had, its Maria's side.

GrandMartha
Mar 23rd, 2011, 11:01 AM
Maria has lost to the likes of Arn, Razzano...in str8, so why moaning here?
Wozniacki is a very good player with some abilities.
What bothers me is she's enjoying some incrediable portion of luck. I mean, Serena is still being sidelined, Venus is injured, Justine retired, Maria hasn't been the same...all this comes together to favor her domination. Had all these players been playing and playing at their standard, where would Woz be right now? Having said that, she had no influence on other players injures or slumps. She's just doing her job.

Whitehead's Boy
Mar 23rd, 2011, 11:02 AM
You can spin it as much as you want, but the problem with players like Wozniacki is that if they face a player who is on and on the offense, she's in big trouble. Since the new racket technology, being on the offense is ALWAYS going to be more rewarding, and will allow you to truly dominate.

DownInAHole
Mar 23rd, 2011, 11:52 AM
Maria has lost to the likes of Arn, Razzano...in str8, so why moaning here?
Wozniacki is a very good player with some abilities.
What bothers me is she's enjoying some incrediable portion of luck. I mean, Serena is still being sidelined, Venus is injured, Justine retired, Maria hasn't been the same...all this comes together to favor her domination. Had all these players been playing and playing at their standard, where would Woz be right now? Having said that, she had no influence on other players injures or slumps. She's just doing her job.

I get your point but any other player has the exact same chance to take advantage of this "weak" era. She is the one that is stepping up and getting the wins. Granted, she has not yet stepped up and won a major but she has time. Davenport, Capriati, Henin, Clijsters and Mauresmo were all older than Wozniacki is now when they won their first slams.

DownInAHole
Mar 23rd, 2011, 11:54 AM
You can spin it as much as you want, but the problem with players like Wozniacki is that if they face a player who is on and on the offense, she's in big trouble. Since the new racket technology, being on the offense is ALWAYS going to be more rewarding, and will allow you to truly dominate.

Maybe, but isn't that true of any player? If your opponent is "on" and blowing you off the court hitting winners that are kissing the lines anyone is going to struggle against that. This is not a phenomenon that is limited to Caroline.

Apoleb
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:00 PM
The best case for Wozniacki is that the other ones are worse, and that she's forcing other players to reconsider and raise their aggressive games.

Her game is also showcasing two of the major troubles in the women's game: 1) reliance on a very low % attacking flat game. If you are asked to come up with these shots time and time again you're probably going to fail, unless you're Davenport or a Maria at her peak 2) control of the forecourt and a transition game to the net. Many players are just happy to sit at the baseline and try to win the point from there without considering a way to build the point so that they can move forward. Moving to the net should be a very effective tactic against Wozniacki's moonballs especially if you have an aggressive game to back it up.

Whitehead's Boy
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:06 PM
Maybe, but isn't that true of any player? If your opponent is "on" and blowing you off the court hitting winners that are kissing the lines anyone is going to struggle against that. This is not a phenomenon that is limited to Caroline.

But the point is that being on the offense > being defensive. If you're on the offense, you won't allow your opponent to dominate you.

It's just wrong to think that players can be as successful regardless of their style of play. Not with the new technology. Stats speak for themselves, really. Who has won slams in the last 20 years? Sanchez-Vicario took advantage of Seles's stabbing, Hingis after a short domination period was dominated herself for the rest of her career and Wozniacki is currently taking advantage of the laughable state of women's tennis where Schiavone is winning a slam and Kimiko Date-Krumm is beating top players.

young_gunner913
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:13 PM
The best case for Wozniacki is that the other ones are worse, and that she's forcing other players to reconsider and raise their aggressive games.

Her game is also showcasing two of the major troubles in the women's game: 1) reliance on a very low % attacking flat game. If you are asked to come up with these shots time and time again you're probably going to fail, unless you're Davenport or a Maria at her peak 2) control of the forecourt and a transition game to the net. Many players are just happy to sit at the baseline and try to win the point from there without considering a way to build the point so that they can move forward. Moving to the net should be a very effective tactic against Wozniacki's moonballs especially if you have an aggressive game to back it up.

Add in service troubles in there too and I completely agree.

It's really frustrating to watch girls hit 30+ errors against Wozniacki and not even attempt to try anything different in the match. It was great to see Marion change up her game in the second set against Caro and it just goes to show you that too many players don't have plan B.

DownInAHole
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:14 PM
But the point is that being on the offense > being defensive. If you're on the offense, you won't allow your opponent to dominate you.

It's just wrong to think that players can be as successful regardless of their style of play. Not with the new technology. Stats speak for themselves, really. Who has won slams in the last 20 years? Sanchez-Vicario took advantage of Seles's stabbing, Hingis after a short domination period was dominated herself for the rest of her career and Wozniacki is currently taking advantage of the laughable state of women's tennis where Schiavone is winning a slam and Kimiko Date-Krumm is beating top players.

I don't think that Caroline needs to completely change her game but I do agree that her chances of winning a slam would be greatly increased if she was able to be more offensive on big points. The semi final against Li in Australia this year being one example. Caroline was up 5-4 in the second and had a match point but played much too passively. After she was broken it seemed inevitable that Li would win the match in three sets. To her credit I think she understands this and she has played some aggressive tennis this year. The problem is will she be able to do that in close matches on the bigger stages or will she revert to a style that she is more comfortable with. I think she will be able to add more aggression to her game but we will have to wait and see.

Lucemferre
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:35 PM
Stop trying to solve a big mystery when there is none. Caro is no1 so she will be hated.She is also slamless so she'll be hated more. Very simple. It's always the same thing.People get annoyed when someone keeps winning. Even if she was perfect people would still find a way to hate her. Hate comes with success.

bandabou
Mar 23rd, 2011, 12:42 PM
Some great points...and indeed the sad case of today's game:
-nobody can serve ( gone are the days that you had a field with arguably the top 5 servers ever in Serena, Davenport, Venus..and throw in some Mary Pierce, etc.).
Nowadays it's df and breaks party.
- no plan B and the plan A isn't even that good to begin with. Players are so dull and lacking in imagination. Nobody can play at the net anymore..a player like Caro? JAM that forehand all day long and you WILL get a short ball..no, players insist to keep hitting to her backhand. :help:
-mental midgets. When the chips are down, today's players crumble and go asking for coach..instead of figuring it out on their own.

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 01:13 PM
ROFL the OP needs to understand that haters (anyways speaking for myself) do not really hate Caro Woz because of the amount of winners she hit per match... in fact no one can even tell how exactly this trend started... then after it just went from an obsolete reason to another... more and more people jumped in the wagon and that was it...

As people stated the girl is boring to the highest could it be herself, her dad and her game... she isn't Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters... these girls gave/gives you a reason to watch or even play the game... Caro Woz gives you absolutely none...

Her movement is graceless, her technique tasteless... and what she does with it is uninspiring... persistent push-push... :S so even if she hits 100 winners for 2 UE it doesn't change an inch...

goldenlox
Mar 23rd, 2011, 01:49 PM
...
As people stated the girl is boring to the highest could it be herself, her dad and her game... she isn't Davenport, Hingis, Clijsters... these girls gave/gives you a reason to watch or even play the game... Caro Woz gives you absolutely none...

Her movement is graceless, her technique tasteless... and what she does with it is uninspiring... persistent push-push... :S so even if she hits 100 winners for 2 UE it doesn't change an inch...Like I said, you cannot take these haters seriously. Caroline won the last 2 Premier Mandatory events, the last 3 Premier 5's.
But if you root for other players, she's uninspiring.
If you want to see a player compete hard all the time, get better & better, and taking the World #1 spot for at least 6 months and still going strong, then she is very inspiring
Her mental focus from point to point, match to match, week to week, might be as great as any player ever.

Shonami Slam
Mar 23rd, 2011, 02:00 PM
as said - what people hate about her is that she reflects the state of wta in her abbility to take advantage of it:

poor serving, poor stratagy, reliance on the coach for answers (poor coaching, too)
carbon copy gamestyles, seemingly endless new tournaments that she wins, but that do not give the aura of the 30+ year events that have been lost, the effectiveness of speed and stability over power and accuracy, the dissapearance of S&V, net-play, slice, full time singles with little doubles.

i could go on forever. she either reflect or is a film negative of today's problems with womens tennis.


my two p?
hewwit was world number 1 as well. so what.

BlueTrees
Mar 23rd, 2011, 02:08 PM
There will always be haters for anyone achieving as much as she has. :shrug: The haters are probably just jealous because they're players aren't having similar success.

It's not like she's a mean person or anything, from what I gather she's nice to fans and all the players say she's really nice.

Anyway, get used to her, because she's going to be around for a loooong time and will win many Grand Slams with it, like it or not.

selestribe
Mar 23rd, 2011, 02:35 PM
She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing.


This

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 02:48 PM
Like I said, you cannot take these haters seriously. Caroline won the last 2 Premier Mandatory events, the last 3 Premier 5's.
But if you root for other players, she's uninspiring.
If you want to see a player compete hard all the time, get better & better, and taking the World #1 spot for at least 6 months and still going strong, then she is very inspiring
Her mental focus from point to point, match to match, week to week, might be as great as any player ever.

Goldenlox I know Caro Woz's achievements you do not need to dictate them in each every of your posts. :awww: Caro Woz must certainly have inside human qualities e.g. fight, will, kindness, mental fortitude etc... but what she does with and how she handles her racket is unispiring... in other words when I watch her I do not feel like lifting my own racket and mimic her like I would with Federer... her game does not create dream...

You can't just like a player because she #1, wins endless MMs and dominates a very weak era... according to your logic... she just doesn't have the it-thing to emulate people in her way could it be with her game or with her personality... she's trying hard for time...

goldenlox
Mar 23rd, 2011, 02:59 PM
...
You can't just like a player because she #1, wins endless MMs and dominates a very weak era... according to your logic... she just doesn't have the it-thing to emulate people in her way could it be with her game or with her personality... she's trying hard for time...She is not only winning MM's. She's made about $4 million in prizemoney in the last 8 months.
And Caro might be the face of the WTA for the next several years, until a young superstar comes up.

And I expect more young players being taught defense, and constructing points in the future.
Its not only ball bashing that can make a young player a successful pro

GoofyDuck
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:17 PM
Goldenlox, do you ever sleep?

Your "I must defend Caroline Wozniacki" alarm must be ringing 24/7. :)

Vegeto
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:47 PM
It feels like Caro's fans are more annoying than her haters.

*JR*
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:54 PM
Goldenlox, do you ever sleep?

Your "I must defend Caroline Wozniacki" alarm must be ringing 24/7.

That's because Kournikovarated isn't on the tour anymore. ;)

Noctis
Mar 23rd, 2011, 03:59 PM
Her Kangaroo jokes are so awsome :yawn:

pov
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:12 PM
I think it is most unfortunate that tennis has the terminology “unforced error” to describe a certain scoring play.
It also has "forced errors" or to put it another way not all miss hits are counted as unforced errors.

Burisleif
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:25 PM
Tennis has been around for a long time, and hasn't changed its basic format for over a hundred years. During this period playing styles and equipment technology evolves, and for every dominant style, a style develops to counter and surpass it. Being a long term tennis fan I understand this, and expect it… I remain a tennis fan because of this fact. To say I dislike a players style is the same as saying 'I'm not a tennis fan'. Tennis has always been about match-ups between evolving styles, and that is precisely what gives it longevity.

I think its important to differentiate between misguided opinion about a players tennis approach (they are all valid) and certain posters on TF that are here not because they wish to discuss tennis, but because they hide behind tennis for their very own selfish reasons of seeking attention, and provoking a reaction. These posters are completely at odds with the very idea of a forum for tennis, and IMO an unwelcome expression of juvenile angst, that would be better kept in the playground.

Because your player lost, is not an acceptable grounds to rampage through public calling the winner a talentless, useless, boring, etc., etc.

Champions adapt, and fans of under performing players should be gracious in defeat and hope their favourite can find a way to adapt to the evolving tennis landscape. Caroline's success is entirely due to spotting and exploiting a vulnerability in the other players games. further, she adapts her play to suit her opponents, I hope her success leads to a new crop of players that are more balanced in their approach, or the current players learn to adapt as the champions they all aspire to be. That might be hard to accept if your entire tennis viewing life has been based around low % hard hitting tennis, but it's the history of tennis its self, and what has kept it popular for all these years.

Maybe this post is futile and expecting people to respect any winning style is beyond the scope of some members, but I think its high time haters looked closer at what is actually going on on court before spouting one line derogatory drivel and excuses for results. Maybe tennis is too nuanced a sport for that to be possible for some? Or is this me being a whining Caro fan about at a lack of depth in some posters tennis comprehension?

Shinjiro
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:43 PM
To say I dislike a player's style is the same as saying 'I'm not a tennis fan'.
uh, no. Let's be clear, I've got no dog in that fight, on TF that is. Heck, I generally never root against the Woz.

As long as one respects said player's achievements, everything is fine.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:46 PM
I respect Caroline for what she has done in terms of tightening her game and her physicality in order to play the way she does. My problem is not HOW she plays because every player plays their own different style of game, some prove to be more successful than others. My problem is HOW MUCH she plays. She plays the second most in the top 20 and to say how far she goes into those tournaments, that is a Ton of matches. With her gamestyle, I imagine that her body has to be tired but yet she continues to push it. I think the reason why she is number 1 in the world is because she simply plays every single big event, ad goes deep into them.
http://www.wtatennis.com/gallery/20110322/all-access-in-miami_2256674_2322229?imageNo=9#picture
When I saw this picture, it scared me. Look at how old, tired and dead she looks. She looks like she wouldnt be able to plaY for weeks, yet she is. She needs to stop playing so much or she is going to burn out quickly just like Jankovic did.

backhandsmash
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:56 PM
I respect Caroline for what she has done in terms of tightening her game and her physicality in order to play the way she does. My problem is not HOW she plays because every player plays their own different style of game, some prove to be more successful than others. My problem is HOW MUCH she plays. She plays the second most in the top 20 and to say how far she goes into those tournaments, that is a Ton of matches. With her gamestyle, I imagine that her body has to be tired but yet she continues to push it. I think the reason why she is number 1 in the world is because she simply plays every single big event, ad goes deep into them.
http://www.wtatennis.com/gallery/20110322/all-access-in-miami_2256674_2322229?imageNo=9#picture
When I saw this picture, it scared me. Look at how old, tired and dead she looks. She looks like she wouldnt be able to plaY for weeks, yet she is. She needs to stop playing so much or she is going to burn out quickly just like Jankovic did.

You really think this is the reason she's number 1! Are you sure? :)


As for the picture comment: I wouldn't mind looking like that when I look dead, old and tired.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 04:58 PM
You really think this is the reason she's number 1! Are you sure? :)


As for the picture comment: I wouldn't mind looking like that when I look dead, old and tired.

Yes I'm sure, it's not like shes winning GS which are giving her a to of points, she has to continually play every tournament in order to get her ranking points the way they are. And im sorry if youre delusional, but no 20 year old should look like that...

hurricanejeanne
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:01 PM
She's hated not because her method of winning is unsound, but because it's not aesthetically pleasing.

Exactly. It's not a lot of fun to watch a player lose to a wall, perhaps even for the casual fan.

And then there's the fact that she play so many tournaments and with her style of play that will eventually take its toll on her body. Whether she wins a slam(s) before she burns out still remains to be seen.

Whitehead's Boy
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:01 PM
To be a champion, you need to be on the offensive mode. It's not me who's saying this: results of the last 20 years speak for themselves.

Wozniacki is still slamless for a reason.

Even Hingis, who was more talented than Wozniacki, only dominated for a while to end up being dominated by Davenport, Capriati, the Williams sisters, etc. Sanchez-Vicario robbed the US Open when Seles was stabbed, and won the French that year facing a nervous, young and unexperimented Pierce. And a morbidly obese Seles in 1998.

Burisleif
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:03 PM
When I saw this picture, it scared me. Look at how old, tired and dead she looks. She looks like she wouldnt be able to plaY for weeks, yet she is. She needs to stop playing so much or she is going to burn out quickly just like Jankovic did.

Thats how you look having Just won a Premier Mandatory, Packed, flown 3000 miles across America, to attend a player council meeting, unpacked, spent all day in press events, and attend a mandatory player party, knowing you have a charity match ahead, and no time to rest or celebrate before your first match in yet another premier Mandatory event.

Excepting the Council, where is the choice in this arrangement?

TennisFan66
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:07 PM
To be a champion, you need to be on the offensive mode. It's not me who's saying this: results of the last 20 years speak for themselves.

Wozniacki is still slamless for a reason.

Even Hingis, who was more talented than Wozniacki, only dominated for a while to end up being dominated by Davenport, Capriati, the Williams sisters, etc. Sanchez-Vicario robbed the US Open when Seles was stabbed, and won the French that year facing a nervous, young and unexperimented Pierce. And a morbidly obese Seles in 1998.

Caroline's tennis career was never built around being a 17 yr old senior slam winner.

tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:10 PM
...Her movement is graceless, her technique tasteless... and what she does with it is uninspiring... persistent push-push... :S so even if she hits 100 winners for 2 UE it doesn't change an inch...

Ah now we get to the heart of the rationale for hating Caro- she is not aesthetically pleasing as another poster put it. Apparently how you win a point is more important than winning the point.

If that is the true reason for hating Caro then perhaps figure skating is the sport for you to watch and not tennis.

TennisFan66
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:10 PM
Exactly. It's not a lot of fun to watch a player lose to a wall, perhaps even for the casual fan.

And then there's the fact that she play so many tournaments and with her style of play that will eventually take its toll on her body. Whether she wins a slam(s) before she burns out still remains to be seen.

and yet tournament directors across the globe make waves, when this young lady agrees to play in their tournaments. Go figure.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
and yet tournament directors across the globe make waves, when this young lady agrees to play in their tournaments. Go figure.

proof?

TennisFan66
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:15 PM
proof?

www.google.com (http://www.google.com) if you dont actually follow tennis, but rely on your tennis information from trolls in GM.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:17 PM
www.google.com if you dont actually folow tennis, but rely on your tennis information from trolls in GM.

You're pathetic you know that? All of us here are presenting good hard evidence on why Caro is to be disliked, and without acknowledging it you ignore it and turn to insulting. All of Caroline's fans seem to be the same, pathetic.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:20 PM
Ah now we get to the heart of the rationale for hating Caro- she is not aesthetically pleasing as another poster put it. Apparently how you win a point is more important than winning the point.

If that is the true reason for hating Caro then perhaps figure skating is the sport for you to watch and not tennis.

Are you serious? Yes, how you win the point is wayyyy more important than winning, stupid. In order to have a large fan base, to have exciting matches (something Caro doesn't) you're shots have to be entertaining. TO BE HONEST you may think Caro is the s$itt but I bet in 20 years time, no one will remember her or if they do they will remember her for being blond...:lol:

TennisFan66
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:22 PM
You're pathetic you know that? All of us here are presenting good hard evidence on why Caro is to be disliked, and without acknowledging it you ignore it and turn to insulting. All of Caroline's fans seem to be the same, pathetic.

You're either one of two

1) Oblivious to tennis or 2) A troll.

PS Did you really think I was gonna bother posting a link/quote from a Tournament Director or WTA official, only for you to reply with some smart arse troll comment #jokesonyoumate.

backhandsmash
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:23 PM
TennisFan66, I hope you are not going to continue arguing with this poster. I don't think it will end well. Or lead to any sort of relevant conclusion.

TennisFan66
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:24 PM
TennisFan66, I hope you are not going to continue arguing with this poster. I don't think it will end well. Or lead to any sort of relevant conclusion.

End well or not, doesn't matter so much. Waste of time, agree. Cheers.

SwingVolley93
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
You're either one of two

1) Oblivious to tennis or 2) A troll.

PS Did you really think I was gonna bother posting a link/quote from a Tournament Director or WTA official, only for you to reply with some smart arse troll comment #jokesonyoumate.

Once again, ignoring evidence and turning to insults, just look at your recent posts. And I hope you listen to backhandsmash because you don't want to continue this argument, because there is no way you can win it :lol:.

moby
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
You can spin it as much as you want, but the problem with players like Wozniacki is that if they face a player who is on and on the offense, she's in big trouble. Since the new racket technology, being on the offense is ALWAYS going to be more rewarding, and will allow you to truly dominate.
I disagree that that is the case anymore, depending on what you mean by offense. The issue is string technology, defensive players can now literally "spin it as much they want", creating enormous topspin for safety, which makes it for aggressive strikers of ball to get consistent clean strikes. You have a slew of players who use their heavy topspin and stamina to grind down other players, Nadal on the men's side does that a lot. And while Caro doesn't hit with as much spin, the combination of spin and pace she generates is still quite foreign to most WTA players.

Coupled with the slowing of the courts, it's much easier to be a defensive player now than any time in the last 10 years.

Corswandt
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:48 PM
I disagree that that is the case anymore, depending on what you mean by offense. The issue is string technology, defensive players can now literally "spin it as much they want", creating enormous topspin for safety, which makes it for aggressive strikers of ball to get consistent clean strikes. You have a slew of players who use their heavy topspin and stamina to grind down other players, Nadal on the men's side does that a lot. And while Caro doesn't hit with as much spin, the combination of spin and pace she generates is still quite foreign to most WTA players.

Coupled with the slowing of the courts, it's much easier to be a defensive player now than any time in the last 10 years.

Bolded part is probably the crux of the matter.

The recent surface homogenisation (into velcro high bouncing "hardcourt") has led to a progressive homogenisation of playing style (into baseline grinding).

I won't pass judgement on the effects of that on tennis as entertainment (all the more so as the signs I get from the casual fans is that they simply can't get enough of long baseline rallies), but a side effect of it is that matches are much more physically demanding than they were even 3-4 years ago, and often become endurance contests.

The levels of attrition have increased, and players accordingly struggle to keep playing at a high level (or even to keep themselves uninjured) throughout a long and tough season. The WTA's top players, with the lone exception of you-know-who, tend to save their energies for short and intermittent bursts of good form, and spend much of the rest of the season not putting in maximum effort (to put it politely).

BTW I don't think Wozniacka hits a particularly heavy ball, of the kind that pushes her opponents back behind the baseline. Bartoli had no problems taking it very early time and again on Sunday. The lack of pace and (unintentionally) variable depth of Wozniacka's shots present much more of a problem to her opponents, as does her ability to endlessly reset rallies by soaking up fast shots and sending them back as 1/2 pace loopers. She doesn't feed off her opponent's pace as counterpunchers usually do - she soaks it up and neutralizes it, in the process creating a low pace environment in which she can keep herself in the rallies for as long as it takes for her opponent to freak out or throw down the towel.

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:49 PM
Ah now we get to the heart of the rationale for hating Caro- she is not aesthetically pleasing as another poster put it. (1) Apparently how you win a point is more important than winning the point.

If that is the true reason for hating Caro (2) then perhaps figure skating is the sport for you to watch and not tennis.

(1) Yes. The way the point is won counts most for fans and the spectators that's why I guess Federer has so many fans... but even for the players too... that's also the reason why Rafa changed his game from grinding to something more offensive because he needed the points to be in a different manner for HCs... it can also be the reeason why Murray's game is called boring whereas it's very far from being so... spectators love flashy things...

(2) No. Tennis doesn't solely turn around Caro Woz... many players are still abled to produce the type of tennis I like in a lesser or bigger extent (Petra, Vika, Maria etc...) so I have no reasons in disrupting the love I have for the game because of lack of esthetism of the world #1...

Tennis isn't only the playing style esthetism but for those who have better knowledge there's also in the package the fluency... (or whatever other valid reasons)... that the player is able to bring in his/her different techniques...

Caro doesn't offer none of these... this is why I say she can hit 100 winners but just she, herself and the manner she does on court just doesn't do it !

Shinjiro
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:52 PM
I disagree that that is the case anymore, depending on what you mean by offense. The issue is string technology, defensive players can now literally "spin it as much they want", creating enormous topspin for safety, which makes it for aggressive strikers of ball to get consistent clean strikes. You have a slew of players who use their heavy topspin and stamina to grind down other players, Nadal on the men's side does that a lot. And while Caro doesn't hit with as much spin, the combination of spin and pace she generates is still quite foreign to most WTA players.

Coupled with the slowing of the courts, it's much easier to be a defensive player now than any time in the last 10 years.
Which makes it difficult, you mean? Or ugly maybe. After all, Agassi hit it on the nail back then when he called Nadal's balls ugly.

moby
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:53 PM
Which makes it difficult, you mean? Or ugly maybe. After all, Agassi hit it on the nail back then when he called Nadal's balls ugly.Difficult.

And Andre needs to stop doing these tell-alls. What goes on in the locker room stays in the locker room.

tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:57 PM
Are you serious? Yes, how you win the point is wayyyy more important than winning, stupid. In order to have a large fan base, to have exciting matches (something Caro doesn't) you're shots have to be entertaining. TO BE HONEST you may think Caro is the s$itt but I bet in 20 years time, no one will remember her or if they do they will remember her for being blond...:lol:



If in twenty years Caro has won some slams (slam plural) she will be remembered and what will be forgotten is the perceived “boring style of her play.” Even forgotten in this forum should it still be around.

Shinjiro
Mar 23rd, 2011, 05:59 PM
Difficult.

And Andre needs to stop doing these tell-alls. What goes on in the locker room stays in the locker room.hehehe, Open vol.2 coming soon.

I stand corrected – obviously meant Nadal's ball.

Apoleb
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:03 PM
The recent surface homogenisation (into velcro high bouncing "hardcourt") has led to a progressive homogenisation of playing style (into baseline grinding).But I think if you put almost any of the major winners of the past generation, they will still rout Wozniacki or the other grinders quite easily (I'm assuming we're talking about Cibulkova, Peer, Radwanska). I don't think this has much to do with the technology or the surface as much as the quality of the players.

I think Wozniacki is a really, really sad version of what a Nadal-like grinder would look like. Offensive tennis is still the way to go; it's just that there's no body to implement it the way it should be.

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:11 PM
(2) No. Tennis doesn't solely turn around Caro Woz... many players are still abled to produce the type of tennis I like in a lesser or bigger extent (Petra, Vika, Maria etc...) so I have no reasons in disrupting the love I have for the game because of lack of esthetism of the world #1...



The fact that you are talking about "esthetism" and then mention a player like Maria in the same breath is really :tape: :help:.

madmax
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:13 PM
The fact that you are talking about "esthetism" and then mention a player like Maria in the same breath is really :tape: :help:.

Maria's game and strokes she produces are very technically sound and exciting to watch...not everyone enjoys watching endless moonballs and grinding from the baseline you know. But to each his own I guess

Shinjiro
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:15 PM
Offensive tennis is still the way to go; it's just that there's no body to implement it the way it should be.Agree, I don't think surface homogenisation is as big a factor in women's tennis.

tkutsaar
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:30 PM
(1) Yes. The way the point is won counts most for fans and the spectators that's why I guess Federer has so many fans... but even for the players too... that's also the reason why Rafa changed his game from grinding to something more offensive because he needed the points to be in a different manner for HCs... it can also be the reeason why Murray's game is called boring whereas it's very far from being so... spectators love flashy things...

Since I wrote “apparently how you win a point is more important than winning the point” I was most surprised to find two posters not only subscribe to the sentiment but actually advance argument to justify the sentiment. The above quote being an example of one of them.

This of course flies counter to my American sports mentality. One of the most famous observations ever made in American sports was uttered by Vince Lombardi (a legendary American football coach for those who do not know):

“Winning isn’t everything; it’s the only thing.”

Corswandt
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:32 PM
Offensive tennis is still the way to go; it's just that there's no body to implement it the way it should be.

Agreed in the sense that only a few years back many Slam contenders could boast overwhelming firepower, while nowadays few of the top players by default who are effectively replacing them have anything even close to weapons they can use to force a decision.

But if we limit our analysis at the current stable of WTA players, at what we actually have, offensive tennis is just too risky and ultimately unrewarding when you're facing opponents who (literally) never miss, and who constantly slow down the pace of the rallies.

Here and there you see hints of new developments that may eventually be used to break the stalemate and take us through the mud and the blood to the green fields beyond (such Stosur's x-treme topspin FH or Kvitova's Eastern FH and laser BH) but until a more talented player manages to marry any of that with adequate levels of atheticism and versatility, trench warfare it will be.

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:44 PM
Maria's game and strokes she produces are very technically sound and exciting to watch...not everyone enjoys watching endless moonballs and grinding from the baseline you know. But to each his own I guess


Pova's game relies on brutal strength, her technique is poor, her game and strokes are ugly.

madmax
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:47 PM
Pova's game relies on brutal strength, her technique is poor, her game and strokes are ugly.

funny that you say that knowing how you support ATP player Del Potro, who plays similar power game to Maria. I see a nice dose of hypocrisy here:wavey:

Juju Nostalgique
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:49 PM
I see Pushy's face every morning when I get off my toilet... :tape:

doomsday
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:58 PM
Pova's game relies on brutal strength, her technique is poor, her game and strokes are ugly.

:o

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:58 PM
funny that you say that knowing how you support ATP player Del Potro, who plays similar power game to Maria. I see a nice dose of hypocrisy here:wavey:


Del Potro has better technique than Maria. He can play a volley here and there, his strokes are fluid and nice.

But to each his own. I don't like Pova's game but I still have respect for her and her achievements. It would be nice if you would show the same respect for Caro :wavey:

Apoleb
Mar 23rd, 2011, 06:59 PM
Agreed in the sense that only a few years back many Slam contenders could boast overwhelming firepower, while nowadays few of the top players by default who are effectively replacing them have anything even close to weapons they can use to force a decision.

But if we limit our analysis at the current stable of WTA players, at what we actually have, offensive tennis is just too risky and ultimately unrewarding when you're facing opponents who (literally) never miss, and who constantly slow down the pace of the rallies.

Here and there you see hints of new developments that may eventually be used to break the stalemate and take us through the mud and the blood to the green fields beyond (such Stosur's x-treme topspin FH or Kvitova's Eastern FH and laser BH) but until a more talented player manages to marry any of that with adequate levels of atheticism and versatility, trench warfare it will be.

In general I agree that the task for the offensive player is harder than it was a few years ago, but I think it's not a big or a huge factor. Maybe Kleybanova/Pavlyhfbfdhova would have had a better chance of beating Wozniacki a few years ago. It's also worth pointing out that over the last two decades, it has always taken a special athlete with special weapons to really dominate, and so this generation will not be an exception either. Still, I have no doubt in my mind that a 2004-2006 Maria would crush them handily as well as a decent Davenport. Even a 2008 Ivanovic would have her chances.

madmax
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:04 PM
Del Potro has better technique than Maria. He can play a volley here and there, his strokes are fluid and nice.

But to each his own. I don't like Pova's game but I still have respect for her and her achievements. It would be nice if you would show the same respect for Caro :wavey:

fair enough...it just would be nice too if you stopped calling one players technique "horrible one" and then refer to Wozniacki as having a "nice" technique:facepalm: How do you think she won all those slams and matches anyway with her crappy technique - she certainly didn't do it with her amazing footwork and all-court game, now did she?:rolleyes:

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:05 PM
I think Wozniacki is a really, really sad version of what a Nadal-like grinder would look like. Offensive tennis is still the way to go; it's just that there's no body to implement it the way it should be.

OMG yes... Nadal is now a very flashy player and people love that version much better... compliments to him that he understood early enough that only the brave and players who goes for their shots survive even more so in ATP tennis...

And as for the second Yep. WTA has became an unstoppable industry producing tons of carbon copy players... the girls just need to be thaught aggressive tennis in the correct manner again...

The fact that you are talking about "esthetism" and then mention a player like Maria in the same breath is really :tape: :help:.

You're the first poster I've ever seen who comes up with Maria's technique being inesthetic... I've never seen that argument before and even the haters made a consensus of how beautiful she was in that department...

You're quite a pioneer here so could you please advance some arguments to your cause...!?

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:09 PM
fair enough...it just would be nice too if you stopped calling one players technique "horrible one" and then refer to Wozniacki as having a "nice" technique:facepalm: How do you think she won all those slams and matches anyway with her crappy technique - she certainly didn't do it with her amazing footwork and all-court game, now did she?:rolleyes:


I don't think I used these words. I know that Woz' technique isn't perfect, either. She still has lots of room for improvement - considering that it is even more impressive that she is #1 and won plenty of big tournaments already.

And Pova won her Slams by being consistant with her groundstroke, good serving and mental stability - lots of things which escape her ATM. But she didn't win her Slams by playing elegant tennis...

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:11 PM
You're the first poster I've ever seen who comes up with Maria's technique being inesthetic... I've never seen that argument before and even the haters made a consensus of how beautiful she was in that department...

You're quite a pioneer here so could you please advance some arguments to your cause...!?


It's not only her technique - her whole game is inesthetic in my opinion. I think I've already explained that in my posts in this thread.

doomsday
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:21 PM
I don't think I used these words. I know that Woz' technique isn't perfect, either. She still has lots of room for improvement - considering that it is even more impressive that she is #1 and won plenty of big tournaments already.

And Pova won her Slams by being consistant with her groundstroke, good serving and mental stability - lots of things which escape her ATM. But she didn't win her Slams by playing elegant tennis...

What the hell? OZ 2008 if it wasn't elegant in every way I don't know what elegant is:lol: she was absolutey elegant in the kind of tennis she plays, plus she added variety in her game especially to beat your beloved Henin; beautiful and very precise heavy groundstrokes from baseline, great serving and also great movement especially in OZ 2008.

tonybotz
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:23 PM
i think people find her game frustrating. you want to live vicariously through your favorite player. kinda like they are an avatar of you. and when she sets up points and doesn't hit the KILL switch, its frustrating! there's no pay off - there's no satisfying conclusion. its all set up with no finale.

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:25 PM
It's not only her technique - her whole game is inesthetic in my opinion. I think I've already explained that in my posts in this thread.

Pova's game relies on brutal strength, her technique is poor, her game and strokes are ugly.

Ah yes ok ! You can don't like power tennis so I have no problems with that... but I really wonder what your conception of techique is to say Maria's sucks !? Why is Del po's for instance better than hers (wich can be conceivable) !?

She has the best BH in her set up, balance, positioning etc... her fluency on that shot is unfound on the tour... Her FH is perfect... ok maybe you don't like the jerk she does on contact point from the FH across the body but I don't see no valid reason to hate that specific department of her game...

Another confusion is if you were to coach a 6"0' plus tall player in the WTA how would you advise her game/playing style for the tour !?

Shinjiro
Mar 23rd, 2011, 07:28 PM
OMG yes... Nadal is now a very flashy player and people love that version much better... compliments to him that he understood early enough that only the brave and players who goes for their shots survive even more so in ATP tennis...
loul

You're the first poster I've ever seen who comes up with Maria's technique being inesthetic... I've never seen that argument before and even the haters made a consensus of how beautiful she was in that department...
It's not a consensus... Masha's got excellent technique indeed on the BH side. :hearts:

tennis-insomniac
Mar 23rd, 2011, 08:06 PM
I hate her game because it's boring!!!!

It is not logical but who watch tennis for logic!! I want adrenalin not melatonin :o

C. W. Fields
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:18 PM
I disagree that that is the case anymore, depending on what you mean by offense. The issue is string technology, defensive players can now literally "spin it as much they want", creating enormous topspin for safety, which makes it difficult for aggressive strikers of ball to get consistent clean strikes. You have a slew of players who use their heavy topspin and stamina to grind down other players, Nadal on the men's side does that a lot. And while Caro doesn't hit with as much spin, the combination of spin and pace she generates is still quite foreign to most WTA players.

Coupled with the slowing of the courts, it's much easier to be a defensive player now than any time in the last 10 years.

The advancement of racquet technology in the 80s signalled the beginning of the end for serve-and-volley tennis. Maybe the current advancement in string technology coupled with the slower courts is signalling the end of power tennis? In the future winning may be less about blasting a power shot by your opponent and more about hitting a spin shot that's hard for your opponent to handle. Who knows, Caro's legacy might be that of the first #1 who took full advantage of the new string/court conditions, the frontrunner of Generation Spin so to speak!?

The recent surface homogenisation (into velcro high bouncing "hardcourt") has led to a progressive homogenisation of playing style (into baseline grinding).

I won't pass judgement on the effects of that on tennis as entertainment (all the more so as the signs I get from the casual fans is that they simply can't get enough of long baseline rallies), but a side effect of it is that matches are much more physically demanding than they were even 3-4 years ago, and often become endurance contests.

The levels of attrition have increased, and players accordingly struggle to keep playing at a high level (or even to keep themselves uninjured) throughout a long and tough season. The WTA's top players, with the lone exception of you-know-who, tend to save their energies for short and intermittent bursts of good form, and spend much of the rest of the season not putting in maximum effort (to put it politely).

BTW I don't think Wozniacka hits a particularly heavy ball, of the kind that pushes her opponents back behind the baseline. Bartoli had no problems taking it very early time and again on Sunday. The lack of pace and (unintentionally) variable depth of Wozniacka's shots present much more of a problem to her opponents, as does her ability to endlessly reset rallies by soaking up fast shots and sending them back as 1/2 pace loopers. She doesn't feed off her opponent's pace as counterpunchers usually do - she soaks it up and neutralizes it, in the process creating a low pace environment in which she can keep herself in the rallies for as long as it takes for her opponent to freak out or throw down the towel.

Caro has become the Voldemort of women's tennis? :lol:
There's a lot of talk about Caro playing too many tournaments and how she'll burn out quickly with her game style. I somewhat agree about her playing too many tournaments. Her schedule this year has been quite sensible so far with two tournaments in Australia, two in the Middle east and now her second in the States. But if she goes all the way in Miami also I wish she would skip Charleston no matter how much the organizers need her with no Clijsters or a Williams to put on the poster.
But it seems to me certain kinds of wear and tear injuries more often strike power players and/or very tall players like Venus, Sharapova and Safina to name a few. I think Caro has a very good size and physique and can well play about 20 tournaments a year at a high level. Her relative lack of power may lead to long baseline rallies with lots of running but at the same time she's less likely to develop what I think of as 'power injuries' like Venus' abs, Sharapova's shoulder and Safina's back.
But I guess we'll have to wait a few years and see how Caro's body holds up before we can really tell.

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 09:55 PM
She has the best BH in her set up, balance, positioning etc... her fluency on that shot is unfound on the tour... Her FH is perfect... ok maybe you don't like the jerk she does on contact point from the FH across the body but I don't see no valid reason to hate that specific department of her game...


Her BH is very good. Her service, as long as it functions, is ok. Her forehand is not perfect, her "outswinging" (I hope that's the right word), often over the head, is not good. Her "technique" on her slices and volleys is non-existant. Her movement is clumsy.

I'm not bashing, just posting my opinion on her game.

madmax
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:14 PM
Her BH is very good. Her service, as long as it functions, is ok. Her forehand is not perfect, her "outswinging" (I hope that's the right word), often over the head, is not good. Her "technique" on her slices and volleys is non-existant. Her movement is clumsy.

I'm not bashing, just posting my opinion on her game.

it's called "lasso forehand" and she is not the only one using this technique (it's Nadal's trademark shot and even Sampras used it in his career too). Talking about slices abd volleys in women's game is irrelevant, since only few of them can pull these elements successfully anyway. Nice attempt at trolling though:wavey:

Olórin
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:17 PM
it's called "lasso forehand" and she is not the only one using this technique (it's Nadal's trademark shot and even Sampras used it in his career too). Talking about slices abd volleys in women's game is irrelevant, since only few of them can pull these elements successfully anyway. Nice attempt at trolling though:wavey:

:spit:

This thread just has it all.

Matt01
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:23 PM
it's called "lasso forehand" and she is not the only one using this technique (it's Nadal's trademark shot and even Sampras used it in his career too). Talking about slices abd volleys in women's game is irrelevant, since only few of them can pull these elements successfully anyway. Nice attempt at trolling though:wavey:


Should I rather trust your opinion about technique? You already showed enough of your "knowledge" in the US Open Caro vs. Maria thread.

MB.
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:39 PM
You're only making things worse.

Every player has haters. The more success a player has, the more hate they receive.

Vikapower
Mar 23rd, 2011, 10:40 PM
Her BH is very good. Her service, as long as it functions, is ok. Her forehand is not perfect, her "outswinging" (I hope that's the right word), often over the head, is not good. Her "technique" on her slices and volleys is non-existant. Her movement is clumsy.

I'm not bashing, just posting my opinion on her game.

Well I didn't say you were bashing ROFL... The "outswing" you call is 'follow through' and it's common knowledge she has problems at contact point on the reversed FH it's undeniable but her classic FH (the one accross the body) is close to perfect and far much better than the vast majority of the girls considering that this is their main weakness...

Maria's tactics on-court gets often criticized but that's where I'd like to know how would you advise a 6"0' plus tall girl to play the game for her to have the best success as possible !?

Maria can also volley very well (Period 2004, Maria vs. Justine RG 2010, Maria vs. Radwanska Toronto (??) 2009, Maria vs. Hingis Doha 2006...) she doesn't go to do it all the time but that doesn't mean she can't... her net positioning is average, her anticipation etc... but when she's on the ball she has the most wonderful hands...

This is what people don't get... Maria is an incredible heck of a talent certainly on of the greatest.

Matt01
Mar 24th, 2011, 01:34 AM
Well I didn't say you were bashing ROFL...


I was just posting that to clarify before some other Maria-Maniac (like madmax) jumps on me again. You are often posting weird stuff that I don't "get" but you stay nice which I'm giving you credit for.


Maria's tactics on-court gets often criticized but that's where I'd like to know how would you advise a 6"0' plus tall girl to play the game for her to have the best success as possible !?


To be successful, she should play the style which suits her, and I guess ballbashing suits her so I'm fine with that. :shrug: But I don't have to like it and I don't think that she is as talened as you make her out to be.



Maria can also volley very well (Period 2004, Maria vs. Justine RG 2010, Maria vs. Radwanska Toronto (??) 2009, Maria vs. Hingis Doha 2006...) she doesn't go to do it all the time but that doesn't mean she can't... her net positioning is average, her anticipation etc... but when she's on the ball she has the most wonderful hands...


Please. Her touch, especially at the net, is awful.

Knizzle
Mar 24th, 2011, 01:48 AM
If her game was that great she would do what great players do which is win big tournaments against the best players. She simply hasn't done that.

Matt01
Mar 24th, 2011, 01:55 AM
If her game was that great she would do what great players do which is win big tournaments against the best players. She simply hasn't done that.


She's doing exactly that. 5 Tier I's in a row :worship:

CloudAtlas
Mar 24th, 2011, 01:57 AM
The truth is that people will always find a way to diminish her achievements. When she couldn't win a Tier I people made a huge fuss over it but now apparently it's not a big deal because she hasn't won a Slam. When she had a perfect losing h2h against all 'active' #1's it was a huge deal but now she's 'only' beaten Ivanovic, Sharapova and Jankovic. Actually she could beat those 3 + Safina and Venus in the same tournament and people would still say it wasn't a big deal.

And anyway why is there some misconception that these top players would own Wozniacki if they played? Her sole match with Justine went to 3 sets , she has had three setters with both Serena and Kim and has only met them twice each. I'm not even gonna mention her h2h with Venus as that stat is as meaningless as it can get. If she was as easy to blast off the court as people think why are these players not finishing her off easily? Maybe it's because she is a tad better than you give her credit for.

Also 'aesthetically pleasing' is subjective. I don't want to watch the likes of Lisicki, Kuznetsova and Rezai hit 50+ unforced errors a match regularly. Now THAT is ugly tennis.

kman
Mar 24th, 2011, 01:57 PM
The truth is that people will always find a way to diminish her achievements. When she couldn't win a Tier I people made a huge fuss over it but now apparently it's not a big deal because she hasn't won a Slam. When she had a perfect losing h2h against all 'active' #1's it was a huge deal but now she's 'only' beaten Ivanovic, Sharapova and Jankovic. Actually she could beat those 3 + Safina and Venus in the same tournament and people would still say it wasn't a big deal.

And anyway why is there some misconception that these top players would own Wozniacki if they played? Her sole match with Justine went to 3 sets , she has had three setters with both Serena and Kim and has only met them twice each. I'm not even gonna mention her h2h with Venus as that stat is as meaningless as it can get. If she was as easy to blast off the court as people think why are these players not finishing her off easily? Maybe it's because she is a tad better than you give her credit for.

Also 'aesthetically pleasing' is subjective. I don't want to watch the likes of Lisicki, Kuznetsova and Rezai hit 50+ unforced errors a match regularly. Now THAT is ugly tennis.

This. It's actually pretty embarrassing. For the haters I mean :lol:

madmax
Mar 24th, 2011, 02:13 PM
I was just posting that to clarify before some other Maria-Maniac (like madmax) jumps on me again. You are often posting weird stuff that I don't "get" but you stay nice which I'm giving you credit for.

nobody would be jumping on you if you expressed yourself in a civilized manner, instead of bashing the player which was owning your fave in the past. You are nothing but a bandwagoner, who is jumping from one succesfull player towards another whenever you feel like it. You can call me maniac all you want, but you are even worse with your constant trollish snipes towards some certain players. At least I'm being honest and support the player I like through her good and bad times.:wavey:

Noctis
Mar 24th, 2011, 02:50 PM
Denmark people think this will help promote Caro or something on a forum :rolls:

hater
Mar 24th, 2011, 03:24 PM
I don't hate her but I think I wil start this year.

Knizzle
Mar 24th, 2011, 03:27 PM
The truth is that people will always find a way to diminish her achievements. When she couldn't win a Tier I people made a huge fuss over it but now apparently it's not a big deal because she hasn't won a Slam. When she had a perfect losing h2h against all 'active' #1's it was a huge deal but now she's 'only' beaten Ivanovic, Sharapova and Jankovic. Actually she could beat those 3 + Safina and Venus in the same tournament and people would still say it wasn't a big deal.

And anyway why is there some misconception that these top players would own Wozniacki if they played? Her sole match with Justine went to 3 sets , she has had three setters with both Serena and Kim and has only met them twice each. I'm not even gonna mention her h2h with Venus as that stat is as meaningless as it can get. If she was as easy to blast off the court as people think why are these players not finishing her off easily? Maybe it's because she is a tad better than you give her credit for.

Also 'aesthetically pleasing' is subjective. I don't want to watch the likes of Lisicki, Kuznetsova and Rezai hit 50+ unforced errors a match regularly. Now THAT is ugly tennis.
That Venus H2H is not meaningless. And its a fact that Woz hasn't had a big win against a big name player at a major. I enjoy watching her move and hit and retrieve, but that type of tennis will get u to quarters semis and sometimes even a final but u have to go for your shots to win majors. Now my face Woz match is hers vs. Serena before OZ in 2009. Woz played a perfect mix of defense counterpunching and was offensive when necessary. She will always lose against aggressiv ball strikers in the late stages of a major. U can defend all day but what if your opponent doesn't miss often what then?

doomsday
Mar 24th, 2011, 03:38 PM
I don't hate her but I think I wil start this year.

Welcome to the club.:bounce:

AcesHigh
Mar 24th, 2011, 03:42 PM
That Venus H2H is not meaningless. And its a fact that Woz hasn't had a big win against a big name player at a major. I enjoy watching her move and hit and retrieve, but that type of tennis will get u to quarters semis and sometimes even a final but u have to go for your shots to win majors. Now my face Woz match is hers vs. Serena before OZ in 2009. Woz played a perfect mix of defense counterpunching and was offensive when necessary. She will always lose against aggressiv ball strikers in the late stages of a major. U can defend all day but what if your opponent doesn't miss often what then?

Wait.. so what are the big names? Serena? Kim?
Of the rest, I don't think Caro would have a problem beating.

She's winning Premier tournaments like they're nothing. That's a pretty big deal.

And an aggressive ballbasher that doesn't miss is dangerous for anyone no matter what your style of play is.

doomsday
Mar 24th, 2011, 03:48 PM
Wait.. so what are the big names? Serena? Kim?
Of the rest, I don't think Caro would have a problem beating.

She's winning Premier tournaments like they're nothing. That's a pretty big deal.

And an aggressive ballbasher that doesn't miss is dangerous for anyone no matter what your style of play is.

Zvonareva, Na Li. The thing is you will never see ballbashers give the match away in a GS semifinal or final.
She will have to take control of the points to win BIG matches she beat Maria the last two times they played but I'm not sure Maria would be that stupid(yes it's the right word) when it really matters, at least, I want to see that not sure that will happen.

chuvack
Mar 24th, 2011, 04:10 PM
I think it is most unfortunate that tennis has the terminology “unforced error” to describe a certain scoring play. The most troublesome aspect of the term is the super negative connotation. Now in some cases the negative connotation is justified. Example a ball lands midway between service line and base line with no particular speed or spin to make the return difficult and yet the player strikes the ball into the net; ergo clearly a true unforced error.

OK so we have another scenario; in an intense rally the player sees she can win the point if she hits the ball right on the base line as her opponent cannot get there in time. Now if the ball does hit the base line it is a winner but if it misses even as little as a millimeter it is a lost point and scored as an unforced error. The lost point of course is scored as an unforced error since the player had the option and clearly could have done so by aiming the ball say 6 inches within the baseline. (My apologies for mixing the measurement forms- I trust each reader can follow my distinctions). However had she done so her opponent could have arrived in time for a return ergo that is why she tried to hit the base line in the first place.

As I understand the focus of the criticisms of the Caro haters, it is centered on the statistical fact that she does not have many winners and ergo wins matches because her opponents make more UEs. I have seen Caro haters state exactly that in various threads herein. Just as an aside I’ve never understood that criticism on its face value- if you win such a match it is a legitimate win it is recorded as a win- you do not get an extra win because you hit more winners and the UEs were not a factor. But really to confront Caro haters in strategically terms is it wiser to try and hit the baseline and gamble you get it in or is it wiser to play a safer point when trying to hit a winner?

In reviewing the semi final match against Sharapova and the final match against Bartoli in the recent IW tourney, objectively one has to conclude that Caroline Wozniaki is a hell of a great tennis player with a sound game and a sound game plan. In the Sharapova match she won the first set 6-1 despite having only one winner. The sneers at such a statistic are not well founded. If one examines Maria’s UEs in totality in that set there were not too many give aways in UEs- most were as a result of trying for a winner or trying to up the pace to get to hit a winner. In fact despite losing 1-6 one can legitimately say Maria was playing fairly well and she was being trounced simply because Caro was so much better.

In the first game against Bartoli which Caro won at fifteen saw her hit three winners. Each winner was well within the lines- truly all were very safe winners. The point is considering the caliber of play in the WTA you seldom get the opportunity to hit a safe winner. Thus if you are determined to pursue such a strategy then obviously your wins will more often be as a result that your opponent has committed more UEs as opposed to you having more winners.

My final point to Caro haters: if you hate her because she is a blonde than at least you have a rational reason for hating her; she is a blonde. But if you hate her because her method of winning is unsound then you are out to lunch.


Thanks for this thread. But what you should understand is that this forum is a public, free, "dumb-content" website where at least 80% of the people who post are brain-dead idiots. They are never going to understand the subtleties of this type of argument.

The "unforced error" statistical system used in tennis is utter crap. Although I am not much of a fan of Wozniacki, it is clear that only a moron would use these so-called "statistics" to cite the quality or lack of quality of a particular player's game.

Vikapower
Mar 24th, 2011, 04:17 PM
To be successful, she should play the style which suits her, and I guess ballbashing suits her so I'm fine with that. :shrug: But I don't have to like it and I don't think that she is as talented as you make her out to be.

She plays aggressive tennis because she likes it and at a lesser extent because her body most probably movement doesn't tolerate another kind of play... Even if to me she's one of the fastest in front runners out there of the tall girls and vs. Radwanska in Cincy 09 was an illustration of that...

In power-hitting you'll not find a player who has a more complete game than her... I believe there was Vaidisova back then and nowadays Petra, Andrea and Ana certainly...

She can do any specifed shots (slice etc...) with the good technique but doesn't want to for certain reasons (she's afraid of getting moved... being aggressed or simply because she doesn't like to do them) and that's where you for instance get confused... and it's not because she doesn't do these shots that she can't do them even better than a player who does them on a regular basis... ROFL !!

doomsday
Mar 24th, 2011, 04:31 PM
She plays aggressive tennis because she likes it and at a lesser extent because her body most probably movement doesn't tolerate another kind of play... Even if to me she's one of the fastest in front runners out there of the tall girls and vs. Radwanska in Cincy 09 was an illustration of that...

In power-hitting you'll not find a player who has a more complete game than her... I believe there was Vaidisova back then and nowadays Petra, Andrea and Ana certainly...

She can do any specifed shots (slice etc...) with the good technique but doesn't want to for certain reasons (she's afraid of getting moved... being aggressed or simply because she doesn't like to do them) and that's where you for instance get confused... and it's not because she doesn't do these shots that she can't do them even better than a player who does them on a regular basis... ROFL !!

THIS. The only players who were forcing Maria to add more variety in her game were Henin and Mauresmo but now they're gone.

Burisleif
Mar 24th, 2011, 04:49 PM
THIS. The only players who were forcing Maria to add more variety in her game were Henin and Mauresmo but now they're gone.

So at the USO against Caro, she wasn't resorting to drop shots having realised she couldn't just 'hit through' Caro? And when They stopped working Maria tried what? and At IW Maria again tried drop shots and they didn't work and she did what?

This thread seems more and more like a 'We hate Caro because she beat Maria' thread.

We have an answer... Caro is grabbing Maria's attention and popularity, and it drives the Maria fans nuts.

CloudAtlas
Mar 24th, 2011, 04:59 PM
That Venus H2H is not meaningless. And its a fact that Woz hasn't had a big win against a big name player at a major. I enjoy watching her move and hit and retrieve, but that type of tennis will get u to quarters semis and sometimes even a final but u have to go for your shots to win majors. Now my face Woz match is hers vs. Serena before OZ in 2009. Woz played a perfect mix of defense counterpunching and was offensive when necessary. She will always lose against aggressiv ball strikers in the late stages of a major. U can defend all day but what if your opponent doesn't miss often what then?



In the context of determining how well Wozniacki can play and who she can beat yes that stat is meaningless. It's been 3 years now since they last played so there's no way that her h2h against Venus can be used against her. Venus was light years ahead of her at that point. Her 4 wins against Caroline are completely valid but let's not pretend they're anything other than what they are , a reigning Grand Slam champion routinely beating a player barely out of juniors.

Matt01
Mar 24th, 2011, 05:07 PM
nobody would be jumping on you if you expressed yourself in a civilized manner, instead of bashing the player which was owning your fave in the past. You are nothing but a bandwagoner, who is jumping from one succesfull player towards another whenever you feel like it. You can call me maniac all you want, but you are even worse with your constant trollish snipes towards some certain players. At least I'm being honest and support the player I like through her good and bad times.:wavey:


Let your bitterness about Pova's recent "success" out at someone else. I was posting my opinion about Pova's game. If you don't like it, p*ss off. :wavey:

doomsday
Mar 24th, 2011, 05:12 PM
So at the USO against Caro, she wasn't resorting to drop shots having realised she couldn't just 'hit through' Caro? And when They stopped working Maria tried what? and At IW Maria again tried drop shots and they didn't work and she did what?

This thread seems more and more like a 'We hate Caro because she beat Maria' thread.

We have an answer... Caro is grabbing Maria's attention and popularity, and it drives the Maria fans nuts.

:lol:I was obvioulsy talking about Maria in her best years, now things have changed she can't hit trough many players, pushers are just a nightmare for her since her comeback, no need to talk about her serve who is really up and down:rolleyes:
You could see against Caro that Maria didn't play her game, she wasn't going for her shots even on shorts balls Caro was so pushing, especially on break points and Maria couldn't even find interesting angles to save her life.
I have no problem with Caroline getting attention these days she is winning all Premiers, good for her but I don't like her game so I have the right to say it.

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 24th, 2011, 05:16 PM
She plays aggressive tennis because she likes it and at a lesser extent because her body most probably movement doesn't tolerate another kind of play... Even if to me she's one of the fastest in front runners out there of the tall girls and vs. Radwanska in Cincy 09 was an illustration of that...

In power-hitting you'll not find a player who has a more complete game than her... I believe there was Vaidisova back then and nowadays Petra, Andrea and Ana certainly...

She can do any specifed shots (slice etc...) with the good technique but doesn't want to for certain reasons (she's afraid of getting moved... being aggressed or simply because she doesn't like to do them) and that's where you for instance get confused... and it's not because she doesn't do these shots that she can't do them even better than a player who does them on a regular basis... ROFL !!


:crying2: this one post is so much gold

Njalle
Mar 24th, 2011, 05:26 PM
Some people claim they hate Caro because of her fans. But when you look at it only 4-5 of the fans are really annoying. Do you really want to hate a player because of 4-5 random fans? Because, you know, Caro's gonna be around for a long time.

tkutsaar
Mar 25th, 2011, 04:04 AM
Thanks for this thread. But what you should understand is that this forum is a public, free, "dumb-content" website where at least 80% of the people who post are brain-dead idiots. They are never going to understand the subtleties of this type of argument.

The "unforced error" statistical system used in tennis is utter crap. Although I am not much of a fan of Wozniacki, it is clear that only a moron would use these so-called "statistics" to cite the quality or lack of quality of a particular player's game.

I am actually pleased with the responses in this thread. I was prompted to write this thread as a result of another post where a Caro hater opined that had Caro won the AO it would be an embarrassment to the WTA. I was flabbergasted by that remark. I pointed out that since Caro was seeded No 1 for the tournament logic would suggest it is more embarrassing to the WTA for her not winning than winning since by winning it justifies her seeding. To this came the reply how can the WTA be proud of a slams champion who has only three or four winners and relies on her opponent having 40+ UEs.

At least in this thread we do have Caro haters conceding she does have a legitimate strategically sound game and is difficult to defeat. So the knock against her is that her game is boring to watch, aesthetically unpleasant. Two posters went so far as to suggest that how you win a point is more important than winning the point. To such an astonishing proposition I have no answer. The rationalization offered by those posters reminds me of one of Moliere’s best known quote from a play:

“The operation was a success but the patient died..”

Potato
Mar 25th, 2011, 04:24 AM
I have no problem with Caro, but for me, her game is as boring as fuck to watch. But as long as it gives her success, that's cool for her. I just don't think she can keep this style of play and win majors, because at the deep end of majors you will always face a great ballstriker and Caro has not yet shown that she is willing to take the chances at latter ends of majors.

Roookie
Mar 25th, 2011, 04:35 AM
I have no problem with Caro, but for me, her game is as boring as fuck to watch. But as long as it gives her success, that's cool for her. I just don't think she can keep this style of play and win majors, because at the deep end of majors you will always face a great ballstriker and Caro has not yet shown that she is willing to take the chances at latter ends of majors.

This.

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:27 AM
I have no problem with Caro, but for me, her game is as boring as fuck to watch. But as long as it gives her success, that's cool for her. I just don't think she can keep this style of play and win majors, because at the deep end of majors you will always face a great ballstriker and Caro has not yet shown that she is willing to take the chances at latter ends of majors.
This.

You may not know it but finding her game boring is nothing to be proud of. It's the equivalence of admitting your tennis knowledge limitations. Not a single true tennis fan ever will describe Caro's game boring, it's different to what those ballstriking machines made you believe is the only way to play the game, but never ever should it be called boring. Makes me sad to realise how indiscriminate tennis fans has become these days.:sad: Makes me even more sad that it takes a decade for modern tennis from Hingis to Wozniacki to variegate the sport. Damn, these thoughts made me sad at the very start of the day.:(

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:47 AM
At least in this thread we do have Caro haters conceding she does have a legitimate strategically sound game and is difficult to defeat. So the knock against her is that her game is boring to watch, aesthetically unpleasant. Two posters went so far as to suggest that how you win a point is more important than winning the point. To such an astonishing proposition I have no answer. The rationalization offered by those posters reminds me of one of Moliere’s best known quote from a play:

“The operation was a success but the patient died..”

We're not just going to become fans of her because she's winning. Sure, if you're already a fan of the Woz for reasons other than her game, then indeed it really won't matter how she wins the point. But many of us do enjoy seeing impressive tennis, and become fans of players who can hit impressive shots, even IF they wind up losing in the end.

You may not know it but finding her game boring is nothing to be proud of. It's the equivalence of admitting your tennis knowledge limitations. Not a single true tennis fan ever will describe Caro's game boring, it's different to what those ballstriking machines made you believe is the only way to play the game, but never ever should it be called boring. Makes me sad to realise how indiscriminate tennis fans has become these days.:sad: Makes me even more sad that it takes a decade for modern tennis from Hingis to Wozniacki to variegate the sport. Damn, these thoughts made me sad at the very start of the day.:(

You're really the biggest troll I've ever come across. Not true tennis fans, because we don't like seeing someone who is simply high on stamina running around and keeping a ball in play for an error? I for one, do appreciate things other than just a power game. I appreciate Francesca's gutsy play and willingness to come to the net and use a variety of shots, same for Henin, even though I wasn't a fan of her personally. Mauresmo's beautiful volleys, etc. There are other enjoyable styles for many of us, other than clobbering the hell out of a ball, but shitty forehand/decent serving/camping behind the baseline is not one of them.

Like stated before, there are players who could defend just as well, but make their tennis far more enjoyable, and not get pushed around entirely in a rally - 08 Jankovic is one I forgot to mention.

PMBH
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:27 AM
We're not just going to become fans of her because she's winning. Sure, if you're already a fan of the Woz for reasons other than her game, then indeed it really won't matter how she wins the point. But many of us do enjoy seeing impressive tennis, and become fans of players who can hit impressive shots, even IF they wind up losing in the end.


One's perspective on this obviously depends on one's definition of 'impresive tennis'. Personally, I was a big fan of women's tennis in the heyday of my great favourites, Chris Evert and later Monica Seles. I loved watching their diversified styles of play (and enjoyed their intensive rivalry with Martina and Graf respectively). But I totally lost all interest for the women's game after the Williams sisters appeared. I think their power game is incredibly dull to watch. Much similar to how my interest in the men's game cooled considerably when Pete Sampras started to dominate.

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:57 AM
You're really the biggest troll I've ever come across. Not true tennis fans, because we don't like seeing someone who is simply high on stamina running around and keeping a ball in play for an error? I for one, do appreciate things other than just a power game. I appreciate Francesca's gutsy play and willingness to come to the net and use a variety of shots, same for Henin, even though I wasn't a fan of her personally. Mauresmo's beautiful volleys, etc. There are other enjoyable styles for many of us, other than clobbering the hell out of a ball, but shitty forehand/decent serving/camping behind the baseline is not one of them.

Like stated before, there are players who could defend just as well, but make their tennis far more enjoyable, and not get pushed around entirely in a rally - 08 Jankovic is one I forgot to mention.
There! That is what differs you from true tennis fans. You only see high on stamina player running around and keeping the ball in play, while in fact her game is billion times more complicated. A friend of mine who hates football when sees a match says that all he is seeing is 22 fools kicking the ball around for 90 mins. I can see the analogy, can you? I'm pretty much sure that thank to hatred you never tried to notice something more than her running behind the baseline. I'm not lecturing you or anything but it appears to me that you may be a fan of a certain player, certain gamestyle, but hardly a fan of the sport of tennis in whole, sorry.:shrug:

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:09 AM
There! That is what differs you from true tennis fans. You only see high on stamina player running around and keeping the ball in play, while in fact her game is billion times more complicated. A friend of mine who hates football when sees a match says that all he is seeing is 22 fools kicking the ball around for 90 mins. I can see the analogy, can you? I'm pretty much sure that thank to hatred you never tried to notice something more than her running behind the baseline. I'm not lecturing you or anything but it appears to me that you may be a fan of a certain player, certain gamestyle, but hardly a fan of the sport of tennis in whole, sorry.:shrug:

Love the way you completely disregard the sentence that just came after that. Very well, by these standards, anyone who dislikes a certain player's game is not "a fan of the sport as a whole." Let's see...

But I totally lost all interest for the women's game after the Williams sisters appeared. I think their power game is incredibly dull to watch. Much similar to how my interest in the men's game cooled considerably when Pete Sampras started to dominate.

Well there's one Caro fan who's not a true tennis fan, and that's just the post right above you. Using this criteria, not one of us on TF is a true tennis fan. I could dig through everyone's posting history to provide a case, but that's really too much work.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:13 AM
One's perspective on this obviously depends on one's definition of 'impresive tennis'. Personally, I was a big fan of women's tennis in the heyday of my great favourites, Chris Evert and later Monica Seles. I loved watching their diversified styles of play (and enjoyed their intensive rivalry with Martina and Graf respectively). But I totally lost all interest for the women's game after the Williams sisters appeared. I think their power game is incredibly dull to watch. Much similar to how my interest in the men's game cooled considerably when Pete Sampras started to dominate.

Well for most of us(Generally the people the OP was speaking to,) one of the characteristics of "impressive tennis" is being able to dictate play, usually being able to hit winners with some regularity(whether it's from the baseline, 3 meters behind, or at the net,) and that's just one of the basics.

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:37 AM
Love the way you completely disregard the sentence that just came after that. Very well, by these standards, anyone who dislikes a certain player's game is not "a fan of the sport as a whole." Let's see...

That's not what I said. You are free to dislike player's game, but characterising world best player's style as "only running and keeping a ball in play" is so wrong that I assume that if you're being serious of course, then you're clearly not a fan of the sport, if you can't see elementary things.:shrug:

For instance, I'm not Serena Williams' biggest fan, but I don't say that her game is based solely on power, because it's obviously deeper than just that. You're intentionally (or not, which is worse) simplifying Caroline's game and that's not what true fans of the sport do. IMO.

bandabou
Mar 25th, 2011, 12:26 PM
That's not what I said. You are free to dislike player's game, but characterising world best player's style as "only running and keeping a ball in play" is so wrong that I assume that if you're being serious of course, then you're clearly not a fan of the sport, if you can't see elementary things.:shrug:

For instance, I'm not Serena Williams' biggest fan, but I don't say that her game is based solely on power, because it's obviously deeper than just that. You're intentionally (or not, which is worse) simplifying Caroline's game and that's not what true fans of the sport do. IMO.

Serena's game is built around her serve. So power doesn't have much to do with it..look at the technique!

:lol: Nice..signature.
Caro's a boxer, I forgot..I guess she'd be a Mayweather-type rather than a Pacquaio.

$uricate
Mar 25th, 2011, 01:35 PM
We have an answer... Caro is grabbing Maria's attention and popularity, and it drives the Maria fans nuts.

Oh please :rolleyes:

Nobody outside tennis world even knows who Caro is, despite the tour forcing her on us at every opportunity.

Maria could retire and still get more attention.
Anna K is still more popular than Caro and she hasnt played since 2003.

CloudAtlas
Mar 25th, 2011, 03:00 PM
We're not just going to become fans of her because she's winning. Sure, if you're already a fan of the Woz for reasons other than her game, then indeed it really won't matter how she wins the point. But many of us do enjoy seeing impressive tennis, and become fans of players who can hit impressive shots, even IF they wind up losing in the end..



There's nothing wrong with that , except the incessant complaining that then follows that player losing and then when the blame gets shifted onto the player that 'won the match because the other person lost it'.

Go right ahead and support someone with big shots who ends up losing but then don't complain and denigrate the other player who won , you should have known what to expect. And by 'you' I'm not aiming this specifically at you , just people on here in general who state that how you win a point is important and then complain when the player with supposed superior shots somehow ends up losing. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Knizzle
Mar 25th, 2011, 04:01 PM
In the context of determining how well Wozniacki can play and who she can beat yes that stat is meaningless. It's been 3 years now since they last played so there's no way that her h2h against Venus can be used against her. Venus was light years ahead of her at that point. Her 4 wins against Caroline are completely valid but let's not pretend they're anything other than what they are , a reigning Grand Slam champion routinely beating a player barely out of juniors.

Why did u ignore my post other than the first sentence?

tkutsaar
Mar 25th, 2011, 05:32 PM
... one of the characteristics of "impressive tennis" is being able to dictate play, usually being able to hit winners with some regularity(whether it's from the baseline, 3 meters behind, or at the net,) and that's just one of the basics.

Assuming the validity of your definition of “impressive tennis”- therefore as Caro does not do these things ergo she does not produce impressive tennis. But logic might suggest that to be able to return what should be winners and/or survive being pushed around in court and still somehow eek out the point would be the more "impressive tennis".

CloudAtlas
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:00 PM
Why did u ignore my post other than the first sentence?



I didn't think it was related to the point that I was making , but I'll answer it now. How do you define a 'big name' player? Is there really anyone other than Serena and Kim who can be called that and then who's loss against Caroline would finally mean she got a 'big win'? let's look at the current top 10.

2) Clijsters
3) Zvonareva
4) Stosur
5) Schiavone
6) Li
7) Jankovic
8) Azarenka
9) Venus
10) Bartoli

I think there are only 2 names on that list , and possibly only one , who if Caro beat in a Slam her win would be considered valid by some on here. And pretty soon Kuznetsova and Sharapova will move back into the top 10 proving my point even further. Like I've said people will always denigrate her achievements. First she didn't have Tier I's , now they don't matter cos they're not Slams , then she hadn't beaten #1's now it's only Ivanovic,Jankovic and Sharapova. The fact is that she's been to back to back semis now playing plenty of talented ballstrikers along the way and she was simply better than them on the day. And if she's in the semis of a Grand Slam that should give her plenty of opportunities to have played big names along the way. They lost earlier than they needed to and somehow Caroline gets the criticism. Very odd indeed.

terjw
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:13 PM
Tennis-wise - I certainly enjoy those Caro matches with really good rallies. And judging by the Oohs and Ahhs in some of the rallies she gets into in plenty of her matches and certainly in her final against Cake at IW - the crowds watching her don't find her boring.

So when I see like a yawn smilie or how boring it was in in Caro's match threads - in sharp contrast to what the crowd there seemed to think - I've a pretty good idea that poster didn't actually watch the match but is just saying it because it's the "cool" thing to copy others. And why would anyone continually watch time and time again something they think is boring. No-one is forcing you to watch. So when I see their posts - I think there's something a bit strange about them subjecting themselves voluntarily to something they dislike and find boring all the time. But in reality - I doubt they watched.

For me - the game is enhanced by players having different games and not all playing the same way. Caro's is based on defence. Kvitova's is attack. But anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point has just not watched her matches.

Corswandt
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:17 PM
Tennis-wise - I certainly enjoy those Caro matches with really good rallies. And judging by the Oohs and Ahhs in plenty of her matches and certainly in her final against Cake at IW - the crowds watching her don't find her boring.

The crowd was oohing and aahing at Bartoli's often bold play.

So when I see like a yawn smilie or how boring it was in in Caro's match threads - in sharp contrast to what the crowd there seemed to think - I've a pretty good idea that poster didn't actually watch the match but is just saying it because it's the "cool" thing to copy others. And why would anyone continually watch time and time again something they think is boring. When they claim they do and cintinuousl comment . No-one is forcing you to. So when I see their posts I think there's something a bit strange about anyone subjecting thenmselves voluntarily to something they dislike and find boring - but they probably didn't watch.

Nothing strange about it. We like watching the other players.

For me - the game is enhanced by players having different games and not all playing the same way. Caro's is based on defence. Kvitova's is attack. But anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point has just not watched her matches.

Anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point - is 100% right.

Matt01
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:23 PM
Nothing strange about it. We like watching the other players.



Yeah, we need players like Kvitova who save the tour from pushers like Woz :hearts: :inlove:

:lol:

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point - is 100% right.
You have just lost all of that little amount of credibility you had.

It even scares me to see not only ordinary posters but the board's so-called experts hating on her this passionately.:eek::(

terjw
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:33 PM
The crowd was oohing and aahing at Bartoli's often bold play.



Nothing strange about it. We like watching the other players getting beaten by Caro.



Anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point - is 100% right.

Oh dear - blind as a bat points 1 and 3. And I've corrected your 2nd point.

LDVTennis
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:38 PM
Anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point - is 100% right.

This was so funny, because it is so true... :lol:

Corswandt
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Caro's haters have valid points.

Carotards have nothing but the overwhelming desire to be contrarian, wind up other people and score points in useless arguments, as posts #146, #147 and #148 sadly attest.

terjw
Mar 25th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Caro's haters have valid points.

Carotards have nothing but the overwhelming desire to be contrarian, wind up other people and score points in useless arguments, as posts #146, #147 and #148 sadly attest.

Run out of rational arguments have you? :lol: We are right and you are wrong :lol: Seriously you shopuld actually watch her match before spouting this nonsense.

Aramitz_II
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:05 PM
Anyone thinking all Caro ever does is just push the ball back into the middle of the court and never does anything to try to win the point - is 100% right.

The central flaw in this, is that it is completely impossible. You do find so called pushers in tennis, but not on the upper side of 500 in rankings. All elite players are trying to take control off the rally. Since both want to do so, it will of course not always succeed. The difference between Caro and a lot of other player is that she actually have a defensive play, but that is not the same as she is a defensive player.

For instance all players make moonball's when they are stressed enough, but not many can actually utillise them. Caro can hit the backline within a feet, when most spray them all over the stadium, and she can there fore use them for something usefull. But that is not the same as she wants to use moonball, they dont win the point for her. But they bring her back in the rally so she may winit later.

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:19 PM
^^Hope you guys don't really expect Corswandt to answer you?:lol: I have noticed in situations like this he usually hides the head in the sand like that ostrich bird.:D But let's be honest with ourselves, who wouldn't run away in shame after saying something of such magnitude of stupidness?;)

AcesHigh
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:22 PM
You have just lost all of that little amount of credibility you had.

It even scares me to see not only ordinary posters but the board's so-called experts hating on her this passionately.:eek::(

Yea, I guess it shows that there really are no "experts" here. That statement by Corswandt was laughable.

Aramitz_II
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:23 PM
I would like to propose a rename of the Caro haters for a couple of reasons

1. Most of them claims that they don't hate her.

2. As i see it hate is a very strong and powerfuld feeling.
I dont think they have such power.


Therefore I will propose that they are called Caro Whiners instead.

LDVTennis
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:32 PM
^^Hope you guys don't really expect Corswandt to answer you?:lol: I have noticed in situations like this he usually hides the head in the sand like that ostrich bird.:D But let's be honest with ourselves, who wouldn't run away in shame after saying something of such magnitude of stupidness?;)

Corswandt is closer to the truth than you are.

I watched the IW Final.

What won Caroline the first set was getting more balls back than her opponent. Yeah, she moves the ball around the court, but she doesn't really create any spectacular angles, she isn't really going for the lines, and she doesn't drive the ball with more than above average pace.

In the second set, Bartoli started pressing Caroline by cutting down on her unforced errors and making some shots. Almost predictably, Caroline wilted.

In the third set, Caroline's superior fitness won out. Bartoli could not sustain. By "superior" here, I mean relative to Bartoli, and not GOAT superior.

If Caroline's play in the IW final is representative of her play generally, she's going to bore a lot of people. By comparison, she made Bartoli look more interesting in the IW final. :lol:

C. W. Fields
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:33 PM
Yea, I guess it shows that there really are no "experts" here. That statement by Corswandt was laughable.

To be fair Corswandt knows a thing or two about tennis. Sadly a negative personality too often gets in the way of an objective delivery of said knowledge. But that's the reason why I haven't put Corswandt on ignore like so many other bashers; every now and then you actually see something from that keyboard which is worth reading, just rarely in connection with Caro.

Linguae^
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:38 PM
I am one of those: "I am a fan of Caro, but I love saying that Serena's gonna slap her butt kinda soon" xDD

Vikapower
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:54 PM
Caro's haters have valid points.

Carotards have nothing but the overwhelming desire to be contrarian, wind up other people and score points in useless arguments, as posts #146, #147 and #148 sadly attest.

I think you've just touched a very sensitive point in the Caro Woz bashing... her fans (some maybe should I say) are very much conscious of how wrong they are on the Dane which explains their very light weigthed arguments... they thrieve on the surrounding hating climat to voluntarily create conflict and nag others mostly with very very silly arguments as you have noted out...

At some time hate was used to generate further hate for trolling reasons but another category should be considered... thrieving on hate without having no specific fanship link with a player to emulate even more hate...

Roughly 60 to 70% of her fanbase are composed of the 2nd. category... Tea must be the undisputable leader captain... but what shall you say !? Can you throw a stone to someone justly fighting for their daily bread !? I can't.

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 07:55 PM
Corswandt is closer to the truth than you are.

I watched the IW Final.

What won Caroline the first set was getting more balls back than her opponent. Yeah, she moves the ball around the court, but she doesn't really create any spectacular angles, she isn't really going for the lines, and she doesn't drive the ball with more than above average pace.

In the second set, Bartoli started pressing Caroline by cutting down on her unforced errors and making some shots. Almost predictably, Caroline wilted.

In the third set, Caroline's superior fitness won out. Bartoli could not sustain. By "superior" here, I mean relative to Bartoli, and not GOAT superior.

If Caroline's play in the IW final is representative of her play generally, she's going to bore a lot of people. By comparison, she made Bartoli look more interesting in the IW final. :lol:
Really don't want to discuss IW final all over again. Let's just say it wasn't Wozniacki's best match ever, by far wasn't. If you want to draw some conclusions about Caroline's game based on 1 particular match that suits you, go on but don't expect understanding.


she doesn't really create any spectacular angles - opponents create angels. couple of times successfully, more oftenly unforced-errorly.
she isn't really going for the lines - no necessity. her usual game is to create situation, to take rally into the situation when all she has to do is to hit a safe winner. as in the previous point, sometimes opponents find the lines better- happens to them couple of matches per year at best.
she doesn't drive the ball with more than above average pace - simiral to the 2nd; she relies on the head more than on simple physical power. Rarity in modern tennis that I believe helped her to win so many fans all over the world.

tennis-insomniac
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:00 PM
This is a controversial topic indeed. No matter what you answer, there will be lots of people say you're wrong.

Every people have their own definition of tennis and what it should be like. Are they a really absolute answer?

unless there are tennis god who can give it, I doubt this discussion would find a most satisfied answer.

Potato
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:18 PM
You may not know it but finding her game boring is nothing to be proud of. It's the equivalence of admitting your tennis knowledge limitations. Not a single true tennis fan ever will describe Caro's game boring, it's different to what those ballstriking machines made you believe is the only way to play the game, but never ever should it be called boring. Makes me sad to realise how indiscriminate tennis fans has become these days.:sad: Makes me even more sad that it takes a decade for modern tennis from Hingis to Wozniacki to variegate the sport. Damn, these thoughts made me sad at the very start of the day.:(

:spit: You're a fucking joke. Just because I don't find someone's style of play entertaining, it means I'm not a fan of tennis? I appreciate Caro's effort and I know how tireless and exhausting her game is, and it's not easy to be such an elite player that focuses so much on defense. However, that has nothing to do with the entertainment value of her game. Vs. Li and AO, who do you think was the more entertaining player to watch? Vs. Bartoli at IW, who was the more entertaining player to watch? Vs. Gisela at the AO, who was more entertaining to watch?

It's my opinion that Caro is boring to watch. Does that not mean I don't appreciate the effort she puts in? No. You might think that Caroline's topspin moonballs are fun to watch. Some people don't. Fucking deal with it. :wavey:

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:22 PM
At some time hate was used to generate further hate for trolling reasons but another category should be considered... thrieving on hate without having no specific fanship link with a player to emulate even more hate...

Roughly 60 to 70% of her fanbase are composed of the 2nd. category... Tea must be the undisputable leader captain... but what shall you say !? Can you throw a stone to someone justly fighting for their daily bread !? I can't.
If I didn't know you write in English I wouldn't ever guessed. So messed up.;) Hope you're drunk or having another reasonable excuse.:D


Every people have their own definition of tennis and what it should be like. Are they a really absolute answer?
Of course there shouldn't be an absolute answer, otherwise our time spending on this board would be even more pointless. But some on here tell that, figuratively speaking, "I prefer apples to potatoes cause I think only fruits are tasty".

Brena
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:28 PM
What I don't get is why people keep answering seriously to tea when it's obvious that it's just an attention seeking troll. I doubt it's a realy Woztard at all - it just picked the player we love to hate the most and enjoys taunting people with silly posts. :shrug:

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:30 PM
:spit: You're a fucking joke. Just because I don't find someone's style of play entertaining, it means I'm not a fan of tennis? I appreciate Caro's effort and I know how tireless and exhausting her game is, and it's not easy to be such an elite player that focuses so much on defense. However, that has nothing to do with the entertainment value of her game. Vs. Li and AO, who do you think was the more entertaining player to watch? Vs. Bartoli at IW, who was the more entertaining player to watch? Vs. Gisela at the AO, who was more entertaining to watch?

It's my opinion that Caro is boring to watch. Does that not mean I don't appreciate the effort she puts in? No. You might think that Caroline's topspin moonballs are fun to watch. Some people don't. Fucking deal with it. :wavey:
Have you got another Vs'es or are these it?:lol: I mean you named 3, carefully selected, and I hope you're proud of yourself, but the thing is, Caroline has played some hundreds times more matches in her career... Why didn't it occur to you to name some of this spring's matches when Caro was spreading 20-30+ winners left and right every match? Awww that doesnt suit your theory, does it?:awww:

btw, using the f-word variations ain't making your points any stronger.:hug::lol:

tea
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:45 PM
What I don't get is why people keep answering seriously to tea when it's obvious that it's just an attention seeking troll. I doubt it's a realy Woztard at all - it just picked the player we love to hate the most and enjoys taunting people with silly posts. :shrug:
:rolleyes: It's true that Caro is only my 3rd fave player after Kim and Flavia, but objectively viewing my #1-2 faves doesn't require much protection on this board while Caro does. Her fellow Danes (except kman and few other) barely can resist the amount of hate the girl is getting in GM.

I have almost used getting badreps from posters with Danish flag a-la this:
You make the real woz fans look bad. YOU UGLY TROLL
and it, believe me or not, hurts.:sad:

goldenlox
Mar 25th, 2011, 08:46 PM
.. I doubt it's a realy Woztard at all - it just picked the player we love to hate the most and enjoys taunting people with silly posts. :shrug:You are the fucking troll. Nobody tries harder, gives more effort, has more mental focus than Wozniacki.
You love to hate her? You're a troll all the way.

FormerlyKnownAs
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:11 PM
Haters ? Lovers ? You all come across as a group of kids in the schoolyard squabbling at the " my dad can beat your dad " level.

It's not soccer so it's not a matter of life or death, or even more important, so my advice, step back, take a look at all the crap and to decide to get a life !!!!!

tennis-insomniac
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:13 PM
According to Oxford Dictionary Online, Tennis is a game in which two or four players strike a ball with rackets over a net stretched across a court. The usual form (originally called lawn tennis) is played with a felt-covered hollow rubber ball on a grass, clay, or artificial surface.

So anyone who said Wozniacki's game is not tennis is wrong. However, the discussion whether they think she is a good tennis player, that has caused an argument due to her difference from past champions who most fans are used to, is not decided. IMO she has a potential to prove herself to be one, though so did Jankovic and Safina.

Brena
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:19 PM
You are the fucking troll. Nobody tries harder, gives more effort, has more mental focus than Wozniacki.
You love to hate her? You're a troll all the way.

:lol:
goldenlox, you're out of your mind (more than usual). :hug:

CloudAtlas
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:33 PM
Corswandt is closer to the truth than you are.

I watched the IW Final.

What won Caroline the first set was getting more balls back than her opponent. Yeah, she moves the ball around the court, but she doesn't really create any spectacular angles, she isn't really going for the lines, and she doesn't drive the ball with more than above average pace.

In the second set, Bartoli started pressing Caroline by cutting down on her unforced errors and making some shots. Almost predictably, Caroline wilted.

In the third set, Caroline's superior fitness won out. Bartoli could not sustain. By "superior" here, I mean relative to Bartoli, and not GOAT superior.

If Caroline's play in the IW final is representative of her play generally, she's going to bore a lot of people. By comparison, she made Bartoli look more interesting in the IW final. :lol:


I think you know yourself that Wozniacki is capable of playing better tennis than the Indian Wells final and she has also shown recent aggressive play such as that seen in Doha, therefore any comment stating that she pushes the ball down the middle a 100% of the time is quite misinformed.

And Wozniacki herself hit 35 unforced errors in that match which is extremely uncharacteristic for her , also very hard to do if all you're doing is the aforementioned.

Matt01
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:38 PM
So anyone who said Wozniacki's game is not tennis is wrong. However, the discussion whether they think she is a good tennis player, that has caused an argument due to her difference from past champions who most fans are used to, is not decided. IMO she has a potential to prove herself to be one, though so did Jankovic and Safina.


Of course Wozniacki is a good tennis player. That's not even debatable.
Debatable is the the question if you Wozniacki's gamestyle attractive and/or exciting or not. Well, taste varies...

Lucemferre
Mar 25th, 2011, 09:39 PM
Goldenlox,you should adopt Caro.

Vikapower
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:07 PM
:lol:
goldenlox, you're out of your mind (more than usual). :hug:

You have had the talent to make Goldenlox get out of his mind... this might be the greatest accomplishment to have ever been seen on TF... ROFL !!

goldenlox
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:12 PM
You have had the talent to make Goldenlox get out of his mind... this might be the greatest accomplishment to have ever been seen on TF... ROFL !!I like to call trolls what they are. You, you're something else.

new-york
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:16 PM
The case against Caro haters is that she is winning.
The case against Caro haters is that she is good, very good.

I guess some of us just prefer a player whose game is based on taking it to the opponent.

SwingVolley93
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhKyOvKbRe8&feature=related
Look at how terrible Caro used to be.. :lol:

tennis-insomniac
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:32 PM
Of course Wozniacki is a good tennis player. That's not even debatable.
Debatable is the the question if you Wozniacki's gamestyle attractive and/or exciting or not. Well, taste varies...

I am sorry, I haven't followed all the pages in this thread due to a lot of it contains profanity and doesn't make much sense. Then, why does this unnecessary anger need to go on when everyone is entitled for their own feeling which can only be changed with time.

Matt01
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:37 PM
I am sorry, I haven't followed all the pages in this thread due to a lot of it contains profanity and doesn't make much sense. Then, why does this unnecessary anger need to go on when everyone is entitled for their own feeling which can only be changed with time.


Because the haters do not only post "I don't find her gamestyle attractive" and be done it. They post in almost every single thread about Wozniacki and post what a hopeless "pusher" she is and that she destroys the WTA tour or crap like that.

new-york
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Because the haters do not only post "I don't find her gamestyle attractive" and be done it. They post in almost every single thread about Wozniacki and post what a hopeless "pusher" she is and that she destroys the WTA tour or crap like that.

It comes with the number 1 rank.

Mary Cherry.
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:41 PM
Threads like this won't make anyone change their minds :shrug:

Potato
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Have you got another Vs'es or are these it?:lol: I mean you named 3, carefully selected, and I hope you're proud of yourself, but the thing is, Caroline has played some hundreds times more matches in her career... Why didn't it occur to you to name some of this spring's matches when Caro was spreading 20-30+ winners left and right every match? Awww that doesnt suit your theory, does it?:awww:
btw, using the f-word variations ain't making your points any stronger.:hug::lol:

20-30? Lol just stop it. I'm sure she had matches this Spring where she hit that many winners, and I didn't say that she doesn't hit winners. If you're saying Caro hits 20-30 winners every match then you need some help :hug: During the whole course of the AO she only hit 20+ winners once against Vania King. I don't watch Caro often and whenever I do (which is when she's on the main court) I'm always watching the other player more. Sometimes I like to watch Caro like last year at YEC, but most of the time she leaves me bored. You're such a pathetic troll, I'm glad your own fanbase hates you :hug:

I can use as much fucking profanity as I want. :hug: Sorry if it hurts your fucking feelings. :wavey:

Vikapower
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:44 PM
I like to call trolls what they are. You, you're something else.

Shall then know what am I !? I see no problems that a player gets contradicted... Caro Woz to these similar critics coming from much higher placed people has never gotten off her comfort zone... you have just blown off for no reasons or should I say for undisputable reasons you can't contradict without having to call names... it's a hard world I know. ROFL !!

SwingVolley93
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:45 PM
20-30? Lol just stop it. I'm sure she had matches this Spring where she hit that many winners, and I didn't say that she doesn't hit winners. If you're saying Caro hits 20-30 winners every match then you need some help :hug: During the whole course of the AO she only hit 20+ winners once against Vania King. I don't watch Caro often and whenever I do (which is when she's on the main court) I'm always watching the other player more. Sometimes I like to watch Caro like last year at YEC, but most of the time she leaves me bored. You're such a pathetic troll, I'm glad your own fanbase hates you :awww:

I can use as much fucking profanity as I want. :hug: Sorry if it hurts your fucking feelings. :wavey:

THANK YOU! Finally someone putting tea in his/her place!:angel:

Matt01
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:48 PM
It comes with the number 1 rank.


Possibly.


Sometimes I like to watch Caro like last year at YEC, but most of the time she leaves me bored. You're such a pathetic troll, I'm glad your own fanbase hates you :hug:


:spit:

schorsch
Mar 25th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Lets open a case against Caro fans. Makes much more sense :bounce:.

Burisleif
Mar 25th, 2011, 11:03 PM
It comes with the number 1 rank.

That might well be the case, but is it acceptable that any attempted discussion or thread in GM be dragged to a base level by a small minority of posters who are here for that sole purpose?

It honestly feels like sensible discussion is pointless as long as rabid trolls are allowed to run rampant posting hate for their own personal pleasure.

Rational discussion about tennis doesn't stand a chance under those circumstances, any more than any form of social gathering will succeed when a gang of agent provocateurs show up.

I find that unfortunate for all genuine tennis fans.

Burisleif
Mar 25th, 2011, 11:05 PM
Lets open a case against Caro fans. Makes much more sense :bounce:.

And against tennis fans, why not... :rolleyes:

$uricate
Mar 26th, 2011, 12:26 AM
Threads like this won't make anyone change their minds :shrug:

I agree.

I dont understand why Caro fans cant just be fans without trying to get the whole world on board. Every player has haters, or rather people who dont appreciate the players gamestyle, attitude etc.

If Caro fans truly believe in her then why not just ignore the haters, since apparently they are the ones in the wrong, and be satisfied that they are right without trying to convert the non-believers.

All this defensiveness just makes me think they dont really believe.

Bonfire
Mar 26th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Ultimately, I believe that all the incessant "Caro bashing" is like fuel for the fire. Not just for her fans but for Caro herself. She has been improving her game and playing as if to prove to the world she is no joke. Almost want to say that without the haters...Caro might not be where she is today. And for that, I thank you:worship::lol:

*JR*
Mar 26th, 2011, 12:52 AM
:lol:

goldenlox, you're out of your mind (more than usual). :hug:

Sorry, I gotta defend Goldy here, and it has nothing to do with Caro (who I have no strong feelings about pro or con). In a world of frontrunners, Goldy is fiercly loyal (as I can say after 9 years of baiting Anna K fans). ;) We all I hope like Max a great deal for sticking with Lena no matter what. :o Goldy may be more combative :boxing: but one can still admire this kind of loyalty. :angel:

Lachy
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:26 AM
I'm yet to be impressed. I see all the points and numbers and the big pretty world number one gifts, but every time I watch one of her matches I don't see the best tennis player in the world. Her defense is unmatched IMO, but her current style of game always leaves me feeling as though she goes out there on a tennis court waiting for her opponents to lose the match (go for their shots) rather than going out there to win it herself. Very rarely do I feel as though the match is in her hands, unless she is playing lesser players. :shrug:

BepaMaria
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:41 AM
Whatever. 13 pages of BS on this thread isn't gonna make me change my views on Pushniacki. The sooner she gets out of the top spot the better. What a disgrace to women's tennis.

Burisleif
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:52 AM
Whatever. 13 pages of BS on this thread isn't gonna make me change my views on Pushniacki. The sooner she gets out of the top spot the better. What a disgrace to women's tennis.

I think you missed the point... I don't know a single Caro fan that cares what you think. I guarantee you that they are very unlikely to want to educate or persuade you of anything.

However, that dose not excuse you posting commentary that is frankly absurd, insulting, and juvenile in the extreme.

The rules of tennis are fixed... and have been since 1890.

You are a disgrace to tennis fans.

FormerlyKnownAs
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:20 AM
Took another look at this schoolyard this morning, and think the Fanatic Haters & the Fanatic Lovers are still at it.
Go for it guys, whos dad can beat whos dad.?????????

At least it keeps them off street corners, and from beating on old ladies and stealing little kids lunch money.

tkutsaar
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:31 AM
I'm yet to be impressed. I see all the points and numbers and the big pretty world number one gifts, but every time I watch one of her matches I don't see the best tennis player in the world. Her defense is unmatched IMO, but her current style of game always leaves me feeling as though she goes out there on a tennis court waiting for her opponents to lose the match (go for their shots) rather than going out there to win it herself. Very rarely do I feel as though the match is in her hands, unless she is playing lesser players. :shrug:

Ah yes once again it’s that pesky rationale: she doesn’t hit winners, her points won are not aesthetically pleasing, she does not dominate, she hasn’t a won slam, truly not a champion blah blah blah. By the way on the latter point would any Caro hater be shocked if she wins a slam this year? I know you Caro haters think she won’t win a slam ever, I get that. But I would bet my soul that if she does win one this year you would not be truly shocked.

What the case against Caro haters boils down to as demonstrated by this thread is that the hatred is based on a subjective view of how tennis ought to be played. You hate her because she doesn’t play tennis how you would like one to play it. Fair enough any fan is entitled to love or hate any player on the tour. And one certainly does not have to be a Caro fan because she wins.

However what is objectionable about the Caro hatred is the smug condensation that the haters use to justify their hate. It is suggested a true tennis fan would deplore Caro’s dominance- that is even if it is admitted that Caro dominates women’s tennis today. Her wins are excused away- her losses are proof positive that she is nothing special.

Now Caro haters are pleading that Serena would return, Maria would complete her comeback, please have Kim Clijsters play more- anything to save the WTA. Save the WTA from what? Caro winning a slam? Apparently when that happens- and please note I use the word “when” it will be deemed a dark day in women’s tennis. One Caro hater actually wrote this in another thread.

Isn’t this Caro hatred just pathetic?

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:10 AM
20-30? Lol just stop it. I'm sure she had matches this Spring where she hit that many winners, and I didn't say that she doesn't hit winners. If you're saying Caro hits 20-30 winners every match then you need some help :hug: During the whole course of the AO she only hit 20+ winners once against Vania King. I don't watch Caro often and whenever I do (which is when she's on the main court) I'm always watching the other player more. Sometimes I like to watch Caro like last year at YEC, but most of the time she leaves me bored. You're such a pathetic troll, I'm glad your own fanbase hates you :hug:

I can use as much fucking profanity as I want. :hug: Sorry if it hurts your fucking feelings. :wavey:
You denying constant 20-30 winners a match fact that has been taking place not long ago? Go watch some tennis for a change!!! And this person accuses me of need help. Comedy at its finest.:lol:

THANK YOU! Finally someone putting tea in his/her place!:angel:
So you joined the board like a month ago and you think you've already got right to make nonsensical posts like this?

Newbies these days...:facepalm:
Whatever. 13 pages of BS on this thread isn't gonna make me change my views on Pushniacki. The sooner she gets out of the top spot the better. What a disgrace to women's tennis.
There are some quality Caro haters on this board. Then there are individuals like you, lacking any sort of variety in their posts, lacking humor, lacking common sense, lacking understanding the sport, lacking taste and so on and on and on. Poor thing.:o

doomsday
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:22 AM
Because the haters do not only post "I don't find her gamestyle attractive" and be done it. They post in almost every single thread about Wozniacki and post what a hopeless "pusher" she is and that she destroys the WTA tour or crap like that.

As long as they are posting this stuff in Pushniacki's thread, I don't see the problem.

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:49 AM
Ah yes once again it’s that pesky rationale: she doesn’t hit winners, her points won are not aesthetically pleasing, she does not dominate, she hasn’t a won slam, truly not a champion blah blah blah. By the way on the latter point would any Caro hater be shocked if she wins a slam this year? I know you Caro haters think she won’t win a slam ever, I get that. But I would bet my soul that if she does win one this year you would not be truly shocked.

What the case against Caro haters boils down to as demonstrated by this thread is that the hatred is based on a subjective view of how tennis ought to be played. You hate her because she doesn’t play tennis how you would like one to play it. Fair enough any fan is entitled to love or hate any player on the tour. And one certainly does not have to be a Caro fan because she wins.

However what is objectionable about the Caro hatred is the smug condensation that the haters use to justify their hate. It is suggested a true tennis fan would deplore Caro’s dominance- that is even if it is admitted that Caro dominates women’s tennis today. Her wins are excused away- her losses are proof positive that she is nothing special.

Now Caro haters are pleading that Serena would return, Maria would complete her comeback, please have Kim Clijsters play more- anything to save the WTA. Save the WTA from what? Caro winning a slam? Apparently when that happens- and please note I use the word “when” it will be deemed a dark day in women’s tennis. One Caro hater actually wrote this in another thread.

Isn’t this Caro hatred just pathetic?

The post you quoted was completely harmless, inoffensive, and honest. Lachy was not baiting anyone or anything, yet as soon as I saw it I just knew within the next five posts someone would quote it and try to argue otherwise or something. The bottom line is this: Many of us like to see tennis where the players battle for control of the match(See your examples in Serena, Kim and Maria.) Caro doesn't do that, plus other parts of her game aren't pleasing, and so, many of us don't like her. Some of Caro's dislikers are more vocal than others, and some are more harsh. It happens, grow a thicker skin. If I stopped to make a thread every time someone made a quite frankly out of line comment about my favorite player, there would be a lot more threads in GM.

Took another look at this schoolyard this morning, and think the Fanatic Haters & the Fanatic Lovers are still at it.
Go for it guys, whos dad can beat whos dad.?????????

At least it keeps them off street corners, and from beating on old ladies and stealing little kids lunch money.

You denying constant 20-30 winners a match fact that has been taking place not long ago? Go watch some tennis for a change!!! And this person accuses me of need help. Comedy at its finest.:lol:


So you joined the board like a month ago and you think you've already got right to make nonsensical posts like this?

Newbies these days...:facepalm:

There are some quality Caro haters on this board. Then there are individuals like you, lacking any sort of variety in their posts, lacking humor, lacking common sense, lacking understanding the sport, lacking taste and so on and on and on. Poor thing.:o

And this is another reason why threads like this last longer. Sadly a lot of the aggression that seems to be directed at Caro has a lot to do with people like these. Those Caro fans always making condescending little remarks. But apparently being unimpressed with Wozniacki means we A) Don't watch enough tennis or B)Aren't true fans of the sport. For the record, not all Caro fans are like this; C. W Fields and Capriati420 off the top of my head are completely good posters who don't try to force her down our throats. It's people like Tea that are just as defensive as her game that carry the blame.

donniedarkofan
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:08 AM
Whatever. 13 pages of BS on this thread isn't gonna make me change my views on Pushniacki. The sooner she gets out of the top spot the better. What a disgrace to women's tennis.

I don't get it. I'm not her fan, but I still don't get why people hate her so much. I mean, she's playing the best tennis she can and she's playing like she was taught to play. Afer all, tennis is a game of errors and whoever makes less erros, wins. I prefer Wozniacki's style, than some brainless ballbasher's who is, let's say, ranked at nr 50 in the WTA. There's nothing to watch, she just hits the ball, the hardest she can, and most of her balls are out. I just described half of the women's players.

To be clear, I don't consider Venus, Serena, Kim or any other player in the top 10, a classic ballbashers, and I don't consider Caroline being a pusher. She just playes the ball, she hits it and it's goin in and that's the way she wins. What's so wrong about it? I'm amazed.

BepaMaria
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:39 AM
There are some quality Caro haters on this board. Then there are individuals like you, lacking any sort of variety in their posts, lacking humor, lacking common sense, lacking understanding the sport, lacking taste and so on and on and on. Poor thing.:o

Oh the irony:lol:

I don't get it. I'm not her fan, but I still don't get why people hate her so much. I mean, she's playing the best tennis she can and she's playing like she was taught to play. Afer all, tennis is a game of errors and whoever makes less erros, wins. I prefer Wozniacki's style, than some brainless ballbasher's who is, let's say, ranked at nr 50 in the WTA. There's nothing to watch, she just hits the ball, the hardest she can, and most of her balls are out. I just described half of the women's players.

To be clear, I don't consider Venus, Serena, Kim or any other player in the top 10, a classic ballbashers, and I don't consider Caroline being a pusher. She just playes the ball, she hits it and it's goin in and that's the way she wins. What's so wrong about it? I'm amazed.

You're not getting it. I don't hate Pushniacki because of her gamestyle although it plays a small role as well. The main reason why I hate her is her personality.

She cheats by faking injuries during matches, just like against Ivanovic at Beijing last year and also against Zvonareva at the YEC 09.

She's also stubborn and full of herself. Saying that she deserved to be No.1 and insisting that she can win slams with her style of play just make me unable to appreciate her as a player. Shes mentally very weak and can only rely on on-court coaching to win her matches. If she was playing on the ATP, she would be ranked outside the top 100 with her mentality. Thats why she will never win a grand slam, because on-court coaching is not allowed there.

Corswandt
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:59 AM
I agree.

I dont understand why Caro fans cant just be fans without trying to get the whole world on board. Every player has haters, or rather people who dont appreciate the players gamestyle, attitude etc.

If Caro fans truly believe in her then why not just ignore the haters, since apparently they are the ones in the wrong, and be satisfied that they are right without trying to convert the non-believers.

All this defensiveness just makes me think they dont really believe.

Spot on.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:13 AM
Isn’t this Caro hatred just pathetic?You should not start threads like this because you bring in the assholes who kept saying, a few months ago, that Caro would be out of the top 10 when her 2009 USO points came off.
Fuck these idiots. Dont create Caro threads that will bring the jackasses in. They're already trolling the regular threads.

C. W. Fields
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:17 AM
The post you quoted was completely harmless, inoffensive, and honest. Lachy was not baiting anyone or anything, yet as soon as I saw it I just knew within the next five posts someone would quote it and try to argue otherwise or something. The bottom line is this: Many of us like to see tennis where the players battle for control of the match(See your examples in Serena, Kim and Maria.) Caro doesn't do that, plus other parts of her game aren't pleasing, and so, many of us don't like her. Some of Caro's dislikers are more vocal than others, and some are more harsh. It happens, grow a thicker skin. If I stopped to make a thread every time someone made a quite frankly out of line comment about my favorite player, there would be a lot more threads in GM.

And this is another reason why threads like this last longer. Sadly a lot of the aggression that seems to be directed at Caro has a lot to do with people like these. Those Caro fans always making condescending little remarks. But apparently being unimpressed with Wozniacki means we A) Don't watch enough tennis or B)Aren't true fans of the sport. For the record, not all Caro fans are like this; C. W Fields and Capriati420 off the top of my head are completely good posters who don't try to force her down our throats. It's people like Tea that are just as defensive as her game that carry the blame.

Thank you. For the record I also think you're one of Caro's nicer non-supporters. :)
I'm afraid some of Caro's fans have endured so much Caro bashing they've lost the ability to differentiate between mindless Pushniacki hating and objective Wozniacki criticism. Kinda like Secret Service agents who can't tell the difference between Greenpeace protesters and Al-Qaeda terrorists!
I jump into the fray from time to time if I think a point is worth arguing, but as long as Caro keeps improving her game and produces good results I don't care all that much what some mindless bashers/baiters write and I have no problem arguing politely with her more mindfull critics.

DownInAHole
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:32 AM
Oh the irony:lol:



You're not getting it. I don't hate Pushniacki because of her gamestyle although it plays a small role as well. The main reason why I hate her is her personality.

She cheats by faking injuries during matches, just like against Ivanovic at Beijing last year and also against Zvonareva at the YEC 09.

She's also stubborn and full of herself. Saying that she deserved to be No.1 and insisting that she can win slams with her style of play just make me unable to appreciate her as a player. Shes mentally very weak and can only rely on on-court coaching to win her matches. If she was playing on the ATP, she would be ranked outside the top 100 with her mentality. Thats why she will never win a grand slam, because on-court coaching is not allowed there.

You do realise that in that match against Ana Caroline was up a set and a break when she was injured. Caroline was up 3-1 and they were in a level deuce game on Ana's serve. By stopping play when she did she was halting her own momentum and if anyone benefited it was Ana not Caroline. After the Vera match Caroline was spanked by Jankovic (6-2 6-2) and the next match she retired (against Serena). Seems like she may have had a legitimate injury there too.

Njalle
Mar 26th, 2011, 12:56 PM
She's also stubborn and full of herself. Saying that she deserved to be No.1 and insisting that she can win slams with her style of play just make me unable to appreciate her as a player. Shes mentally very weak and can only rely on on-court coaching to win her matches. If she was playing on the ATP, she would be ranked outside the top 100 with her mentality. Thats why she will never win a grand slam, because on-court coaching is not allowed there.

So, I know this will be hard for you to abstract, but what if Caro should win a slam one day? Eventually, the general consensus has agreed that Caro would, in fact, very well win a slam ne day. Even bookmakers, who have substantial money at stake, agree that she has been among the favourites at the last few slams. This makes me consider: Is it all of them that are plain wrong - or is it just you?

I also disagree with you on the entire mental issue. Sure, she does get a lot of coaching from Piotr, but I still consider her one of the strongest players on the tour mentally. And she has reached a GS final and two semifinals so far, so it is not exactly like she folds at slams.

C. W. Fields
Mar 26th, 2011, 01:06 PM
You do realise that in that match against Ana Caroline was up a set and a break when she was injured. Caroline was up 3-1 and they were in a level deuce game on Ana's serve. By stopping play when she did she was halting her own momentum and if anyone benefited it was Ana not Caroline. After the Vera match Caroline was spanked by Jankovic (6-2 6-2) and the next match she retired (against Serena). Seems like she may have had a legitimate injury there too.

There's not much point in answering BM, he just likes to bait people. I gave up on him long ago and put him on ignore so now I only see his posts when others quote him. It's hard to magine he actually believes in his own accusations though I suppose it's possible he's so unfamilar with sports he has never experienced a pain that's quite real for a minute but goes away quickly just leaving you a bit sore and swollen (Beijing) as opposed to an injury from which you need time to recuperate (Charleston).
As for the Vera match at YEC 09 you're talking a bit past each other. He's saying Caro faked her thigh cramps during the match while you're talking about the ab strain which I don't think she really noticed until after the match but handicapped her against JJ and Serena.

bandabou
Mar 26th, 2011, 01:38 PM
Caroline is a nice girl. But she isn't a Panova or Coetzer...so why is she so intent on playing like them? I think that's the thing.
Sure consistency is great, but Caro is just pushing it sometimes. NO aggression whatsoever, no intention to go for winners..

Doesn't make for interesting watching. And that's why she only has ONE final at majors and that's almost 2 years ago.

PMBH
Mar 26th, 2011, 04:21 PM
You're not getting it. I don't hate Pushniacki because of her gamestyle although it plays a small role as well. The main reason why I hate her is her personality.

She cheats by faking injuries during matches, just like against Ivanovic at Beijing last year and also against Zvonareva at the YEC 09.

She's also stubborn and full of herself. Saying that she deserved to be No.1 and insisting that she can win slams with her style of play just make me unable to appreciate her as a player. Shes mentally very weak and can only rely on on-court coaching to win her matches. If she was playing on the ATP, she would be ranked outside the top 100 with her mentality. Thats why she will never win a grand slam, because on-court coaching is not allowed there.

How old are you?

BepaMaria
Mar 26th, 2011, 04:41 PM
So, I know this will be hard for you to abstract, but what if Caro should win a slam one day? Eventually, the general consensus has agreed that Caro would, in fact, very well win a slam ne day. Even bookmakers, who have substantial money at stake, agree that she has been among the favourites at the last few slams. This makes me consider: Is it all of them that are plain wrong - or is it just you?

I also disagree with you on the entire mental issue. Sure, she does get a lot of coaching from Piotr, but I still consider her one of the strongest players on the tour mentally. And she has reached a GS final and two semifinals so far, so it is not exactly like she folds at slams.

She lost in the SFs in the last two slams as the no.1 seed. As the no.1 seed, you are on paper the best player in the draw and expected to win the tournament. By losing in the SFs, she is in fact falling short of expections.

At last year's USO she crumbled under pressure and was clueless on how to handle Zvonareva who was just no.7 in the world at that time. This year's AO was even worse, losing to Mug Na(who has not won a match since AO) after having match point. If she was mentally strong, she would have regrouped, changed her gameplan and won in the end. These two examples are perfect in showing that she folds at the slams so your last statement there is totally wrong.

bandabou
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:08 PM
Yep..that's it really. Caro as no.1 winning IW ( specially when Kim went out with injury) isn't really nothing to talk about. Caro coming up short time and time again at the majors..THAT's news.

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:38 PM
Yep..that's it really.


Agreeing with an obvious troll...you really disappoint me :lol:

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:44 PM
She lost in the SFs in the last two slams as the no.1 seed. As the no.1 seed, you are on paper the best player in the draw and expected to win the tournament. By losing in the SFs, she is in fact falling short of expections.

At last year's USO she crumbled under pressure and was clueless on how to handle Zvonareva who was just no.7 in the world at that time. This year's AO was even worse, losing to Mug Na(who has not won a match since AO) after having match point. If she was mentally strong, she would have regrouped, changed her gameplan and won in the end. These two examples are perfect in showing that she folds at the slams so your last statement there is totally wrong.

Great post! :angel:

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Aaaaa can anyone confirm what I am reading cause it looks pretty surreal even by TF standards! Vera Zvonareva fan talking about someone being mentally weak?!?!!!

01BO-an2Mso

Alrighty... then how unfamiliar with tennis one must be not to know that mental toughness is one of Wozniacki's strengths?:help: We seriously should have some tennis sanity test in registration form to filter out some posters at the beginning...

SwingVolley93
Mar 26th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Aaaaa can anyone confirm what I am reading cause it looks pretty surreal even by TF standards! Vera Zvonareva fan talking about someone being mentally weak?!?!!!

01BO-an2Mso

Alrighty... then how unfamiliar with tennis one must be not to know that mental toughness is one of Wozniacki's strengths?:help: We seriously should have some tennis sanity test in registration form to filter out some posters at the beginning...

I'm sorry, but to be frank with you, this entire post is the definition of what a troll is. :tape:

bandabou
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:05 PM
Agreeing with an obvious troll...you really disappoint me :lol:

;) Sometimes you've to pull at the cages a bit to make a person step it up. Caro needs to step it up.

gdmirou
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:07 PM
How old are you?

:spit:

Apoleb
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:08 PM
Gosh, Carotards are turning out to be one of the most obnoxious and disgusting fan bases on this forum ever. It doesn't help Caro's case. :help:

Just accept the fact that so many people find her style of play appalling and it has little to do with her "winning". When JJ and Safina were slamless #1s, they got a lot of flack but they weren't disparaged in this manner. And this is all started way before Caro reached the top 5.
And I'm considering disabling signatures just because of tea's.

Viktymise
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:11 PM
Gosh, Carotards are turning out to be one of the most obnoxious and disgusting fan bases on this forum ever. :help:

Fitting for the player, I suppose.

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Fitting for the player, I suppose.


Classy :worship:

AcesHigh
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:35 PM
Gosh, Carotards are turning out to be one of the most obnoxious and disgusting fan bases on this forum ever. It doesn't help Caro's case. :help:

Just accept the fact that so many people find her style of play appalling and it has little to do with her "winning". When JJ and Safina were slamless #1s, they got a lot of flack but they weren't disparaged in this manner. And this is all started way before Caro reached the top 5.
And I'm considering disabling signatures just because of tea's.

"so many people"? based on what? TF? :spit:

Btw, JJ and Safina did not receive the absolute constant hate that Caro is getting... even despite DOING WELL as a #1.

Every single thread about Wozniacki there are people trashing her. The only way Caro fans could avoid Caro-hate is to stop visiting TF altogether.

And it's funny IMHO.. b/c I remember when the WS were first bursting onto the scene and people were constantly disparaging their style of tennis. It wasn't "real tennis". It was "ugly". People would always doubt them and said they wouldn't last.

Fast forward 10-14 years and Caro is being blasted the same way.

azdaja
Mar 26th, 2011, 06:40 PM
I'm afraid some of Caro's fans have endured so much Caro bashing they've lost the ability to differentiate between mindless Pushniacki hating and objective Wozniacki criticism.
this is true and it seems it's not just "some" caro fans but a majority on this board, i'm afraid. plenty of criticism going caro's way makes sense, some of the supposed "hate" is simply a result of a different taste and caro is winning anyway, so is there a reason to be this defensive? :shrug: some caro fans even want to see hate coming in particular from some other fan bases, but as far as i can tell there is no evidence for that either. i guess that's what happens when group thinking developed in a player's forum takes over.

and since i saw a football analogy was made here, are you actually aware that teams and coaches who practice defensive football receive a lot of abuse all the time? and that they can make football look dull to probably most people in the world - and if both teams agree that not attacking much serves them well even objectively so. saying that being defensive-minded is bad for the game happens all the time. hell, even the great spain team that won the last world cup was criticised for supposedly being all about the ball posession and not about scoring a lot of goals.

given that people on this board can go out of their way to really hate on players and be quite creative about their reasons for doing so i think caro fans complain too much. i don't want to offend anyone, just my impression :shrug:

CWTennis
Mar 26th, 2011, 07:19 PM
Gosh, Carotards are turning out to be one of the most obnoxious and disgusting fan bases on this forum ever. It doesn't help Caro's case. :help:

Oh, shut up! :mad: Caro has the best fans in the world! :p

http://i077.radikal.ru/1103/9f/dec9d739c733.jpg


Every single thread about Wozniacki there are people trashing her. The only way Caro fans could avoid Caro-hate is to stop visiting TF altogether.
I think we just have to ignore some haters/trolls! :shrug:

madmax
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:02 PM
I think we just have to ignore some haters/trolls! :shrug:

it would be nice if obnoxious Pushniacki arse lickers like tea and goldenlox could be ignored as well...but I guess it's impossible when they are spamming this board 24/7 with their propaganda

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:05 PM
it would be nice if obnoxious Pushniacki arse lickers like tea and goldenlox could be ignored as well...but I guess it's impossible when they are spamming this board 24/7 with their propagandaTrolls like you are why a Caro fan started this thread. Go lick Sharapova's arse. She just made a SF

Viktymise
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:16 PM
"so many people"? based on what? TF? :spit:
And it's funny IMHO.. b/c I remember when the WS were first bursting onto the scene and people were constantly disparaging their style of tennis. It wasn't "real tennis". It was "ugly". People would always doubt them and said they wouldn't last.

Fast forward 10-14 years and Caro is being blasted the same way.

Yet 'Caro' plays nothing like Venus or Serena, circa 10-14 years ago. Not to mention the complaints were not in the same vein at all.

DownInAHole
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:19 PM
Yep..that's it really. Caro as no.1 winning IW ( specially when Kim went out with injury) isn't really nothing to talk about. Caro coming up short time and time again at the majors..THAT's news.

I think you may be overstating things a little bit. Caroline may have underperformed in slams as the number one seed but two semi final appearances is not an embarrassing result. I also think you should keep in mind her (relative) youth. Yes, many players won slams at a younger age than Caroline but many were older than Caroline when they won their first slam (Davenport, Capriati, Henin, Clijsters and Mauresmo to name some recent examples). Maybe Caroline will win a slam and maybe she will not but I think she deserves more time to prove herself.

madmax
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:23 PM
Oh, shut up! :mad: Caro has the best fans in the world! :p

http://i077.radikal.ru/1103/9f/dec9d739c733.jpg


I think we just have to ignore some haters/trolls! :shrug:

Trolls like you are why a Caro fan started this thread. Go lick Sharapova's arse. She just made a SF

all you do is hype her ass up non-stop on this board. Making neverending excuses for her shortcomings and annoying other posters with the same crap over and over again. Sorry, but you are not the one to talk here:wavey:

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Why are you in Caro threads with the same bullshit. You dont even type her name, just a troll looking to derail threads.
Yeah, if I annoy you or the other obvious trolls like you, that comes with being a troll.

*Nefertiti*
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:43 PM
I don't know why can't we discuss things without the words fans and haters. Some people just want to enjoy quality tennis and they don't like the current status of WTA tennis, it aint about Caro or Vera or Masha, etc.. It's about wanting to watch real tennis and it happened to be that Caro is the current no 1 player while WTA is suffering a real decline but it is not exclusively about her, all WTA tennis players share the blame and I hope this declined era is going to end soon.

tea
Mar 26th, 2011, 08:59 PM
all you do is hype her ass up non-stop on this board. Making neverending excuses for her shortcomings and annoying other posters with the same crap over and over again. Sorry, but you are not the one to talk here:wavey:
Have you got a mirror at home? Because "annoying other posters with the same crap over and over again" must be something you set as a daily goal to the image you see in a mirror. Fix yourself, get a life or something, life is beautiful, actual life doesn't even require you to hate on Caro or tennis, it's great, try it!:hug:

Vikapower
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:05 PM
it would be nice if obnoxious Pushniacki arse lickers like tea and goldenlox could be ignored as well...but I guess it's impossible when they are spamming this board 24/7 with their propaganda

Triple ROFL !! Goldenlox effectively does a lot of propaganda close to brain washing with Caro Woz's achievements in each and every of his posts... Lol. I even thaught he was a Caro Woz robot but seeing him express so much emotions here there has humanized him very much. :hug:

Beyond her game finally... the real Caro Woz problem is clearly her fans and obviously the Dane willn't have been in such a dramatic situation on this board if her fans were more socialised and not so easy name-callers.

goldenlox
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:10 PM
..and not so easy name-callers.I've called you a delusional maniac before. Dont think I started labeling in this thread.
These threads just bring the trolls and lunatics, as if they need a reason for their continuous insulting of Wozniacki.

flareon
Mar 26th, 2011, 09:12 PM
:lol: This seems to be going round in circles, just agree to disagree.

AcesHigh
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:53 PM
Yet 'Caro' plays nothing like Venus or Serena, circa 10-14 years ago. Not to mention the complaints were not in the same vein at all.

Because the dominant style was not aggressive baseline tennis with little room for error.
They were called unskilled.

Then the shift went to brainless ballbashing and Caro is being criticized for being a defensive player. The roles are just reversed.

I'm not saying Caro will be the next Venus or Serena.. but the complaints were very similar. People even started complaining how the WS were ruining tennis.

Mary Cherry.
Mar 26th, 2011, 10:58 PM
:lol: This seems to be going round in circles, just agree to disagree.

The forum would die if they did that. Sad but true.

flareon
Mar 26th, 2011, 11:11 PM
The forum would die if they did that. Sad but true.

I do not mean in geneal :p But it seems everyweek everyone argues about wozniacki, Its getting boring ;) argue about someone else :lol:

Also I did not know people thought the WS would ruin tennis :eek: now that is :haha:

Viktymise
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:25 AM
Because the dominant style was not aggressive baseline tennis with little room for error.
They were called unskilled.

Then the shift went to brainless ballbashing and Caro is being criticized for being a defensive player. The roles are just reversed.

I'm not saying Caro will be the next Venus or Serena.. but the complaints were very similar. People even started complaining how the WS were ruining tennis.

But the WS brought the game into its most exciting, high quality period ever. Failniacki is leading the game into its nadir. That is undeniable.

There are always doubters, but the level of doubt that Failniacki inspires amongst pundits is unprecedented. And, it's not as though she's even a quarter as good as Venus or Serena to prove all her naysayers wrong; she's already fell flat on her face in her biggest matches countless times.

Aramitz_II
Mar 27th, 2011, 12:31 AM
I do not mean in geneal :p But it seems everyweek everyone argues about wozniacki, Its getting boring ;) argue about someone else :lol:

Also I did not know people thought the WS would ruin tennis :eek: now that is :haha:

That is right and Richard was a greedy insane bully who had whipped these 2 girl
to practice 25 hours a day.

And it was said that it only would bee question of time before someone with real tennis skill showed up and wiped out the Williams sisters.

terjw
Mar 27th, 2011, 01:08 AM
But the WS brought the game into its most exciting, high quality period ever. Failniacki is leading the game into its nadir. That is undeniable.

There are always doubters, but the level of doubt that Failniacki inspires amongst pundits is unprecedented. And, it's not as though she's even a quarter as good as Venus or Serena to prove all her naysayers wrong; she's already fell flat on her face in her biggest matches countless times.

The level of doubt about Caro amongst the experts and pundits they point out are:

As a defensive player - can she win a slam? And the census among most of them nowadays is that she can but needs to improve and play more aggressively to do so. The bookmakers now have her in the top three for every slam.
.
#1 without a slam
(well that's always been the case and was the case when Kim was first #1)
.
She hasn't yet beaten the big 4
(pity they don't point out when Venus last played and the few opportunities since she's really improved last year that she's had to play any of them - but there you are)Most state that she's #1 but not the best in the world - but the consensus is gradually changing that she is also the best e.g Simon Reed first time he said that at the start of the IW final.

They do not think her matches are a snorefest, they don't call her a disgrace, they don't think her matches are bad and that the WTA needs to be saved. There is none of the ridiculous wailing and whining abour her matches being boring or that she's bad for the WTA. The commentators called the IW final a good advertisement for the women's game. And commentators and experts don't wail about the reason she wins is luck.

You can have your opinion - but don't whine that it's everyone elses.

As far as this so-called unprecedented criticism :lol: - there has always been criticisms of the women's tour and far far worse than now. From no depth and just a two woman show to claims of fixed matches between the best two women in the world. I'd hardly call having a slamless #1 or a player who bases their game more on defence anything to worry about.

CloudAtlas
Mar 27th, 2011, 01:42 AM
A thread like this comes along very often on here but rarely does it become a serious discussion , and even then I use the term 'serious' loosely. So when it does you know it's getting pretty irritable and it's time to just stop. All I see on here are Caro fans and her biggest detractors needlessly arguing about things which they're never going to be convinced over. Just let it be and move on , this thread will go nowhere. When determining how 'good' a tennis player is there's is always subjectiveness present therefore lengthy arguments aren't going to solve anything.

Caroline fans will complain that her detractors are unreasonable and her detractors will as a result claim her fans to be defensive. And the cycle goes on. If you're a detractor then good for you , do what you want, but she's a very successful tennis player so if you're a fan just be happy with that and don't get involved in petty disputes. Caroline has proven the doubters wrong on several points now and leave it up to her to prove them wrong on the others. Thank you.

*unsubscribes*

DownInAHole
Mar 27th, 2011, 01:49 AM
But the WS brought the game into its most exciting, high quality period ever. Failniacki is leading the game into its nadir. That is undeniable.

There are always doubters, but the level of doubt that Failniacki inspires amongst pundits is unprecedented. And, it's not as though she's even a quarter as good as Venus or Serena to prove all her naysayers wrong; she's already fell flat on her face in her biggest matches countless times.

That's just silly. Caroline is one of a very small handful of players that has been consistent. So many players play fantastic for stretches and then completely disappear for weeks/months at a time. Are you saying the WTA needs fewer players that perform at a high level week to week and more streaky, inconsistent players?

Dominic
Mar 27th, 2011, 03:25 AM
Actually what I do not understand is the ppl, like the OP who do not get the bashing that Caroline gets. Tennis is a sport, the ultimate goal of any sport is to entertain its viewers. Watching a girl hit slow to medium pace short balls near the middle of the court for hours is not entertaining at all for the vast majority of ppl. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Blu€
Mar 27th, 2011, 03:46 AM
Actually what I do not understand is the ppl, like the OP who do not get the bashing that Caroline gets. Tennis is a sport, the ultimate goal of any sport is to entertain its viewers. Watching a girl hit slow to medium pace short balls near the middle of the court for hours is not entertaining at all for the vast majority of ppl. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I thought the ultimate goal of any sport is to WIN :confused: , entertainment is secondary & debatable. Results not so much.

Wiggly
Mar 27th, 2011, 04:51 AM
That's just silly. Caroline is one of a very small handful of players that has been consistent. So many players play fantastic for stretches and then completely disappear for weeks/months at a time. Are you saying the WTA needs fewer players that perform at a high level week to week and more streaky, inconsistent players?

The WTA need consistent exciting top players.

Caroline can't be exciting on her own, she needs someone to make her run all over the court.
Alone, she's meh.

Dominic
Mar 27th, 2011, 04:55 AM
I thought the ultimate goal of any sport is to WIN :confused: , entertainment is secondary & debatable. Results not so much.

What are you talking about? Ultimate goal of the players is to win. The ultimate goal of any sport is to entertain sports fans in order to make them spend money.

Burisleif
Mar 27th, 2011, 05:02 AM
What are you talking about? Ultimate goal of the players is to win. The ultimate goal of any sport is to entertain sports fans in order to make them spend money.

Cool, bring on the fireworks and cheerleaders... :rolleyes:

Dominic
Mar 27th, 2011, 05:23 AM
Cool, bring on the fireworks and cheerleaders... :rolleyes:

:lol: if you don't know or believe the goal of every sport is to entertain ppl to make money, you seriously need an education, that is like basic stuff.

backhandsmash
Mar 27th, 2011, 05:26 AM
Surely the goal is to win. People are entertained by wins.

AcesHigh
Mar 27th, 2011, 05:26 AM
:lol: if you don't know or believe the goal of every sport is to entertain ppl to make money, you seriously need an education, that is like basic stuff.

No, that's not the goal of the sport.. it's the goal of whatever business is running the sport.
In tennis, that gets a little complicated.