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View Full Version : Would Caroline Woz be favoured now if she were to play Venus or Serena?


wayitis
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:34 PM
The head-to-head is abysmal now for the Dane, but Wozniacki is currently in top shape and we do not know what kind of form will Venus and Serena be coming back in... The sisters have returned from long layouts and quickly regained their prowess and winning ways before, but injuries have been taking a higher toll lately. A fit backboard like Woz could worry especially Venus, who tends to be more streaky when in error-prone mode, but maybe a challenge like the number 1 ranked player is what takes Venus to a more focused game. Caroline, on the other hand, still has the non-existing Slam title weighting down on her shoulders, a concern that is probably affecting her performance with each missed opportunity, and both sisters are proven Slam contenders and extremely dangerous opponents in the second week, no matter what shape they are in.

Head-to-head aside, there is no guarantee of results in tennis, so this could be a very intriguing match if it were to occur someday...

Olórin
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:40 PM
It's difficult to say, because what both Serena and Venus have (or when Venus plays decent) are excellent serves. When was the last time Caroline faced someone with a great serve? If someone is holding serve comfortably it completely changes the complexion of the match-up.

RenaSlam.
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:42 PM
Venus, not Serena.

Irute
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:44 PM
Objectively it would be hard to say as the form of Williams sisters is unknown. Subjectively... I think the fans of Williams still outnumber Caro's fans so if there was a poll here :lol: it would be interesting ;)

goldenlox
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:45 PM
I hope we see those matches. I'd like to see a Caro-Kim match, hasnt happened yet in 2011, even though they both are having good years

L'Enfant Sauvage
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:45 PM
If Woz is ever going to beat any of the Big 4, her best chance is Venus, or Serena in the first month or two of her comeback(if she hasn't been staying fit.) Venus is known to put on a horrorfest against counterpunchers/players who can extend her in rallies(Losing H2H against JJ, Clijsters including 5 in a row.) While Wozniacki is inferior to Jaja and especially Kim in offensive capabilities, I consider her an even better defender than the both of them. If Venus and Caro were to meet, and my life depended on it, I would have to bet on Caro sadly.

2010Rena would roast Caro IMO, that was really some of the best shape I'd seen her in in a while. However, inactivity will make her rusty, not to mention she hasn't looked quite as lean last time I saw her, compared to Wimbledon 2010 where she looked very much like she did in 2004 IMO. Her fitness isn't going to be right for the first couple of months of her comeback, so Caro can exhaust her and take a win, particularly outside of the slams. In a slam though, I would still put money on Serena, but she won't annihilate her in two easy sets like alot of people in GM would say(Unless it's at, say, Wimb Final)

Kairi
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:48 PM
Of course not, Vee, or even Serena would roast her..however, if she were to meet serena before she's had any matches under her belt, things could get tricky...i highly doubt Vee or Serena would let themselves be beaten by Caro, regardless of how buddy buddy they are...

Chris 84
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:54 PM
why are venus and serena grouped together like one entity? serena, when fit, is the best player around and can only be challenged off of clay for that title by clijsters. venus, meanwhile, has done very little of note for ages. at wimbledon she's a danger, and if she gets a run going, then potentially at some of the american hard court tournaments she is a danger, but in the last few years, venus has become an also-ran. i'd expect caro to beat her on most occasions.

however, if venus found enough form that she reached a slam final and faced caro in it, i'd pick venus purely because in reaching such a final it would be evidence that she had found form and on-form venus beats caro.

i'd pick serena over caro almost every time.

Direwolf
Mar 21st, 2011, 03:59 PM
Venus - Wozniacki
6-4 6-4
6-3 7-5
6-2 6-2
6-3 6-3

Serena - Wozniacki
6-7(5) 6-3 7-6(3)
6-4 0-1(till she had those cramp attacks)

Wozniacki is Venus' Capriati
as
Wozniacki is Serena's Capriati

pov
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:03 PM
I favor Wozniacki against a healthy V. Williams anywhere other than Wimbledon.

With a healthy S.Williams . . . I say she has a decent chance but I don't favor her.

Olórin
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:03 PM
venus, meanwhile, has done very little of note for ages.

Well neither has Serena really, she hasn't played in nearly a year. Depends what you mean by ages. Venus did nearly beat Kim at the US Open, for the past 2 years in fact. To me, that's not very little - also ran maybe, but one of the best also rans.

What are you basing Venus losing to Caroline on, other than your own estimation of Venus' ability when she returns from injury? You talk about "who has done what" recently and who might win in a slam final; well Venus' last slam final was only two months before Wozniacki's last and only slam final.

Obviously if they were to meet in the near future Wozniacki has all the form. But Venus still has all the class. Until she stops reaching the second week of slams, you can't ignore that. The way some people talk you'd think she was in a Sharapova or Ivanovic-like predicament.

AnomyBC
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:06 PM
I think even though Caro has a 0-4 record against Venus, she'd probably be considered the favorite over her at this point (especially since it's been 3 years since they last played each other.) With Serena, I think it would depend on what condition she's in and what tournament they were playing.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Caro has already almost beaten Serena once, at Sydney 2009. The score was 6-7, 6-3, 7-6. And Caro retired in the only other match they played, but until that point that match was also pretty competitive. So it's not like Serena is blowing her off the court or anything.

moby
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:11 PM
Both Williamses are out with injury so I'm sure she can beat them right now.

I think people are underestimating Venus and overestimating Serena in this match-up.

Playing defensively against Venus never cuts it. She has stellar records against players like Shahar, etc. You have to be able to take your chances and go for quick hard strikes the moment you have an opportunity - that's how you mess up Venus's rhythm and that's when her strokes will break down. Wozniacka really isn't that quick... against Venus, having good court positioning and an excellent defensive game plan doesn't cut it. I'll favour Venus if she were to play Caro by a slight margin.

On the other hand, I think Wozniacka can outrally Serena, who unlike Venus, doesn't usually go all out on her groundstrokes. Her groundstrokes have a lot more height, which place into Wozniacka's hands. But Serena still has the edge because of the serve.

tea
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:11 PM
Yes, she would. I've been saying it for months now. Given Caroline's current form no sane tennis spectator could deny it. Well, maybe barring S.Williams on grass court at first, but even that is debatable.

Navratil
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:13 PM
Of course: Yes!

This is not a matter of blond hair or pink dresses :D

Noctis
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:14 PM
i hope so,so i can make money .
we all know Serea/Venus best beats Caro's best anyday.

Patrick345
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:17 PM
She would be favoured against Venus, everywhere but Wimbledon and mayb the USO. As this currently would be a 4th round match at the USO, it would largely depend on how Venus played to get to the last 16.

With Serena it really depends how early after Serena´s return they play. The longer Serena plays and shows she still got it, the bigger Wozniacki´s odds get, but if they played her in Serena´s first tournament back, (not being Wimbledon/USO again) it would be a pickem imho.

TennisFan66
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:20 PM
i hope so,so i can make money .
we all know Serea/Venus best beats Caro's best anyday.

Making money. Hmmm thats nice. Same way you made money backing Pova Vs Caro?

The Witch-king
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:23 PM
This reminds me of the WWW Venus or Stosur thread from last year.

doomsday
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:52 PM
Making money. Hmmm thats nice. Same way you made money backing Pova Vs Caro?

Pova is far from her best.
Anyway I think she should win epsecially against Venus if not:help:

HRHoliviasmith
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:53 PM
Venus, yes.

wildemu
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:55 PM
your question is right now, and I would be the worst bookmaker in the world if I put caroline as an underdog. American odds-wise she would be at least -180 and above favorite against venus, and at least -200 to -300 against Serena. Match play is so important, the sisters wouldn't beat her RIGHT NOW (can't emphasize that enough).

Mary Cherry.
Mar 21st, 2011, 04:57 PM
Venus? Yes
Serena? Maybe unless she's fully fit, in which case no.

justineheninfan
Mar 21st, 2011, 05:12 PM
Right now she would beat Venus on any medium or slower court. Venus might still win on a faster court.

Serena? It depends how out of fitness and form Serena is when she returns, and if like Venus the aging effect also begins to show more. Otherwise Serena on all surfaces.

justineheninfan
Mar 21st, 2011, 05:15 PM
Playing defensively against Venus never cuts it.

Pironkova anyone?

Smitten
Mar 21st, 2011, 05:19 PM
She can beat Venus obviously.

AcesHigh
Mar 21st, 2011, 05:19 PM
Both Williamses are out with injury so I'm sure she can beat them right now.

I think people are underestimating Venus and overestimating Serena in this match-up.

Playing defensively against Venus never cuts it. She has stellar records against players like Shahar, etc. You have to be able to take your chances and go for quick hard strikes the moment you have an opportunity - that's how you mess up Venus's rhythm and that's when her strokes will break down. Wozniacka really isn't that quick... against Venus, having good court positioning and an excellent defensive game plan doesn't cut it. I'll favour Venus if she were to play Caro by a slight margin.

On the other hand, I think Wozniacka can outrally Serena, who unlike Venus, doesn't usually go all out on her groundstrokes. Her groundstrokes have a lot more height, which place into Wozniacka's hands. But Serena still has the edge because of the serve.

Finally someone gets it.

Wozniacki isn't quick enough and she would just give Venus a nice rhythm. Plus with Venus's height, those moonballs would be sitting ducks.

Serena has the serve which would give her a win against Woz, but if she's not serving well... she's definitely vulnerable.

The Dawntreader
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:16 PM
Serena has the serve which would give her a win against Woz, but if she's not serving well... she's definitely vulnerable.

Based on what?:lol:

You're seriously under-estimating Serena's ground game, if you think Woz would better her off the ground.

Veesus
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:18 PM
Yes, she would. I've been saying it for months now. Given Caroline's current form no sane tennis spectator could deny it. Well, maybe barring S.Williams on grass court at first, but even that is debatable.

Girl please. :o

Given their current state (Venus' hip injury and Serena's ebolism), I'd say Caroline, but only if she plays them injured.

When they're all healthy, Venus and Serena are superior to Caroline and everyone else on the tour. :shrug:

Veesus
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:20 PM
Finally someone gets it.

Wozniacki isn't quick enough and she would just give Venus a nice rhythm. Plus with Venus's height, those moonballs would be sitting ducks.

Serena has the serve which would give her a win against Woz, but if she's not serving well... she's definitely vulnerable.

Venus isn't particularly good when the ball bounces high :o

Also, Serena's ground game is far superior to Caroline's. Stop talking rubbish :o

kiwifan
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:22 PM
I would think any healthy tennis player would be favored against the Williams Sisters right now...:devil:

Apoleb
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:23 PM
As far as I remember, Venus doesn't like high shots to her forehand with no pace. That's why JJ causes so much trouble for her. They will cause a lot of trouble imo if they regularly bounce somewhat close to the baseline and that's Caro's expertise.

I still think Serena would deal better with her. Serena has an excellent court sense and you bet your life that she will know how to construct a point against Push in a matter of 3/4 games, and wait just right for the moment to kill her. Serena gets bothered from the baseline when she is being put under pressure, especially with players who can bring different types of bal: something both Justine and Kim succeeded in doing by changing direction and exposing her movement and footwork. I think you need to rub Serena time to beat her from the baseline, something Demented was also very good at. Caro is NOT going to put her under pressure and will allow her plenty of time to set her shots up and construct points.

moby
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:35 PM
Based on what?:lol:

You're seriously under-estimating Serena's ground game, if you think Woz would better her off the ground.At Wimbledon last year, Serena's last 5 opponents were making her work on the baseline. Even Cibulkova.

Pironkova anyone?

As far as I remember, Venus doesn't like high shots to her forehand with no pace. That's why JJ causes so much trouble for her. They will cause a lot of trouble imo if they regularly bounce somewhat close to the baseline and that's Caro's expertise.She only hates the high shots if you mix them up with flat ones, giving her no rhythm and confusing her poor footwork. One of Venus's weaknesses if when you lure her in with a slight shorter high ball, and then follow up by a hard flat groundstroke right at her feet or to the baseline. I think that's what JJ and Flavia do so well. I don't think Wozniacki's backhand DTL is on the level of JJ's, and she's not as fast as JJ either.

If you keep feeding her high balls, she'll just get into a rhythm.

Caro also doesn't hit all that deep. She drops a ball short now and then in every rally, especially on the forehand side.

Obviously Caro is good enough to have her chances, and Venus is not in good form, but I think Venus is a worse match-up for her than Serena.

kman
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:36 PM
Venus yes. Serena no. Except if it was Serena's first match back or something. I take the "now" in your question lightly.

Apoleb
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:39 PM
At Wimbledon last year, Serena's last 5 opponents were making her work on the baseline. Even Cibulkova.But that's grass. Different story. And yes Cibulkova is the type of retriever who can bother Serena because she retrieves with pace, like Dementieva. If you can take away time from Serena, you expose her footwork. I think Caro would be a good matchup for her. Of course she needs to play decently, but she won't be much of trouble at the latter stages of slams.

I'm very interested in how that matchup will go, because I really think Serena's true class as a tactician will show in contrast to the ballbashers of the day.

Noctis
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:44 PM
Making money. Hmmm thats nice. Same way you made money backing Pova Vs Caro?

Yes 3 years ago in Doha and RG And her vs Li na in AO And her vs Safarova in Stuttgart and her vs Kim in the final,Also Zvonareva in Doha. Shes a money making machine, Sunshine money pops :cheer:

Serenita
Mar 21st, 2011, 06:59 PM
Yes 3 years ago in Doha and RG And her vs Li na in AO And her vs Safarova in Stuttgart and her vs Kim in the final,Also Zvonareva in Doha. Shes a money making machine, Sunshine money pops :cheer:
:lol:
Making that money fast and easy.

AcesHigh
Mar 21st, 2011, 07:06 PM
Based on what?:lol:

You're seriously under-estimating Serena's ground game, if you think Woz would better her off the ground.

Did I say she can better her off the ground? No. I said she's vulnerable. There's a reason their matches have been close.

At Wimbledon last year, Serena's last 5 opponents were making her work on the baseline. Even Cibulkova.



She only hates the high shots if you mix them up with flat ones, giving her no rhythm and confusing her poor footwork. One of Venus's weaknesses if when you lure her in with a slight shorter high ball, and then follow up by a hard flat groundstroke right at her feet or to the baseline. I think that's what JJ and Flavia do so well. I don't think Wozniacki's backhand DTL is on the level of JJ's, and she's not as fast as JJ either.

If you keep feeding her high balls, she'll just get into a rhythm.

Caro also doesn't hit all that deep. She drops a ball short now and then in every rally, especially on the forehand side.

Obviously Caro is good enough to have her chances, and Venus is not in good form, but I think Venus is a worse match-up for her than Serena.

Totally agree.

Uranus
Mar 21st, 2011, 07:07 PM
Serena? Never.
Venus, these days, of course Caro would be the favourite.

She needs to defeat the best two (in big tournaments if possible), aka Serena & Kim, to be considered the best IMO.

ce
Mar 21st, 2011, 07:07 PM
Would love to see Serena in good form against Caroline :inlove:

justineheninfan
Mar 21st, 2011, 08:34 PM
There's a reason their matches have been close.


Reallly the biggest reason is they havent played in a slam which is where the real Serena shows up these days. The Serena of other tournaments in recent years can lose regularly to Dementieva and even Bammer so not such a good barometer.

That said Wozniacki has improved alot since their last meeting, and Serena isnt likely to ever be completely the same again.

new-york
Mar 21st, 2011, 08:39 PM
you'd think Venus hadn't won a match in months before being out.

:shrug:

Anyway to me she would not be the favorite against any of them as they should handle her if playing well.

C. W. Fields
Mar 21st, 2011, 08:43 PM
Venus - Wozniacki
6-4 6-4
6-3 7-5
6-2 6-2
6-3 6-3

Serena - Wozniacki
6-7(5) 6-3 7-6(3)
6-4 0-1(till she had those cramp attacks)

Wozniacki is Venus' Capriati
as
Wozniacki is Serena's Capriati

You could have mentioned all the Venus matches are from when Caro was 16-17 yo.
And Caro retired against Serena because she had pulled a stomach muscle in an earlier match against Zvonareva (the match in which she also got cramps).

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 21st, 2011, 08:46 PM
Finally someone gets it.

Wozniacki isn't quick enough and she would just give Venus a nice rhythm. Plus with Venus's height, those moonballs would be sitting ducks.

Serena has the serve which would give her a win against Woz, but if she's not serving well... she's definitely vulnerable.

ummm moonballs have been killing venus now for years...anyone consistent enough has been giving venus trouble...and caro can do more than just putting it in the strike zone...shahar isn't nearly the player caro is

serena would be more patient...one pre-AO warm up match doesn't show that Caro would give serena a harder time...

i'd expect a terrible match up for either when they come back, they can both hold easily, but serena is less prone to breaking down when a match up calls for consistency

The Witch-king
Mar 21st, 2011, 08:50 PM
ummm moonballs have been killing venus now for years...anyone consistent enough has been giving venus trouble...and caro can do more than just putting it in the strike zone...shahar isn't nearly the player caro is

serena would be more patient...one pre-AO warm up match doesn't show that Caro would give serena a harder time...

i'd expect a terrible match up for either when they come back, they can both hold easily, but serena is less prone to breaking down when a match up calls for consistency

Oh so an actual match between Serena and Caro doesn't say anything about a future match-up but your unsubstantiated hypothesis about Venus and moonballs does?

Hian
Mar 21st, 2011, 09:10 PM
Eh?

AcesHigh
Mar 21st, 2011, 09:27 PM
Reallly the biggest reason is they havent played in a slam which is where the real Serena shows up these days. The Serena of other tournaments in recent years can lose regularly to Dementieva and even Bammer so not such a good barometer.

That said Wozniacki has improved alot since their last meeting, and Serena isnt likely to ever be completely the same again.

So matches against Serena only count in slams? You think she enjoyed spending a lot of time out on court with Caro?

B/c I think that's ridiculous. Even then, Serena has played some pretty crap matches in slam wins recently. It's not like she's been blazing past competition with her 2002-2003 form.

perseus2006
Mar 21st, 2011, 09:43 PM
Serenka and Venus are both out with serious injuries.

I don't think it's a given that Venus will be the Venus-of-old when she returns this time. She's getting up there in age and seems more fragile than ever.

Personally I doubt Serenka will be on court in 2011. Maybe Tokyo or China just to get a feel for things to set up 2012. From what has been said, she will be on blood thinners for some time, which should preclude practicing and playing tennis well into the summer. Given that and any impairment to her game from the original foot injury, maybe she'll be good to go about this time in 2012. She's in the serious shit, lets see if she makes it back on tour at all.

I think it's a wait and see on the WS for the future. Both will work hard with the forlorn hope of Olympic Glory in 2012. But things are iffy at the moment.

In answer to the question, a reasonably fit and in-form Venus or Serena would take out Woz. But so would Pova, Sveta, Vera...

The Dawntreader
Mar 21st, 2011, 09:56 PM
Did I say she can better her off the ground? No. I said she's vulnerable. There's a reason their matches have been close.



Which matches? One Sydney warm-up match does not give a definitive account of Woz somehow being a bad match-up for Serena.

Vikapower
Mar 21st, 2011, 10:00 PM
Vee is more prone to losing not only to the Dane but to anybody than Rena outside grass... Vee will have a very weak comeback.

That a side, just a personal revenge :

I'd like Caro Woz to school and persistently defeat Rena from now on just for me to have an idea of the future reactions of some of the Rena fans who support Caro Woz... some good studying in perspective.

Chris 84
Mar 21st, 2011, 10:16 PM
Well neither has Serena really, she hasn't played in nearly a year. Depends what you mean by ages. Venus did nearly beat Kim at the US Open, for the past 2 years in fact. To me, that's not very little - also ran maybe, but one of the best also rans.

What are you basing Venus losing to Caroline on, other than your own estimation of Venus' ability when she returns from injury? You talk about "who has done what" recently and who might win in a slam final; well Venus' last slam final was only two months before Wozniacki's last and only slam final.

Obviously if they were to meet in the near future Wozniacki has all the form. But Venus still has all the class. Until she stops reaching the second week of slams, you can't ignore that. The way some people talk you'd think she was in a Sharapova or Ivanovic-like predicament.

serena has done little of note ONLY because she has been injured. im not saying serena 2010 was peak serena, but she was very impressive when it mattered.

venus, meanwhile, has been a top8 seed (and often a top4 seed) at slams for the majority of the last 10 years, yet with the exception of wimbledon, she hasn't really had much success. sure, she has made second weeks, but she isn't the same venus. the venus of 2000, 2001, etc would crush the tour in this day and age (on the faster surfaces at least), but she simply isn't the same player.

im not a fan of the williamses or of caro btw, but to me, serena, along with kim, is the person to beat at slams at which she is fit. venus is on the tier below as being a dangerous player who has the ability to win a slam, but rarely gets her act together for 2 straight weeks any more and isn't thaaat different to a kuznetsova, sharapova, etc. she hasn't had the major slump that ivanovic had, for example, and she is more consistent, but she is like those players in that she bas the ability to win slams, but too often falls short.

oh, and in all i've said i'm discounting wimbledon. other than serena, venus is the person to beat on grass, and i'd definitely make her the favourite on grass against caro.

winone23
Mar 21st, 2011, 10:19 PM
Vee is more prone to losing not only to the Dane but to anybody than Rena outside grass... Vee will have a very weak comeback.

That a side, just a personal revenge :

I'd like Caro Woz to school and persistently defeat Rena from now on just for me to have an idea of the future reactions of some of the Rena fans who support Caro Woz... some good studying in perspective.

Venus came back last year from injury and was able to make it to the US Open semis, and who knows how deep she would have gone at the Aussie Open. So to say Venus' comeback will be weak is a silly assumption, unless your psychic or something.

Vikapower
Mar 21st, 2011, 10:52 PM
Venus came back last year from injury and was able to make it to the US Open semis, and who knows how deep she would have gone at the Aussie Open. So to say Venus' comeback will be weak is a silly assumption, unless your psychic or something.

She made the semis without having to face Caro Woz certainly one of the greatest youngster to have ever played...

Are you then assuming that Vee of the actual, Vee of the last 8 years would have a successful comeback outside grass with such a federesque Dane !?

I'm not a psychic facts are facts in middle-2010/2011 : Caro Woz >>> Vee.

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 21st, 2011, 10:56 PM
She made the semis without having to face Caro Woz certainly one of the greatest youngster to have ever played...

Are you then assuming that Vee of the actual, Vee of the last 8 years would have a successful comeback outside grass with such a federesque Dane !?

I'm not a psychic facts are facts in middle-2010/2011 : Caro Woz >>> Vee.

it's amazing how much you say caro sucks especially when she was to go up against the best player on tour in maria...now venus is a superior player to maria yet caro is now the greatest youngsters to have ever played?? :lol:

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:12 PM
who knows? i do worry serena will return too early. i think she desperately will want to play wimbledon but it just seems so soon after what has gone on.

as for venus, the match would be on her racket, but it is a lot of the time and she still loses.

Slutiana
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:22 PM
Well lets get one thing straight; these comparisons between Wozniacki and Jelena are so stupid. The reason Venus has always had so many problems with Jelena is because Jelena loves the flat, powerful ball that Venus gives her, and she is able to redirect it at will and counter. Also, when Venus moves forward, she is so smart and resourceful, with so many different shots and strategies to keep Venus guessing and completely unsure when she ventures forward.

Wozniacki's game is exposed when time is taken away from her. Her defence is so good because of a variety of different things, but her movement is essentially average and becomes a problem when players rush her. Venus always looks to get to the net behind her shots, and that is exactly what uncovers Wozniacki's lack of footspeed. And though her lob is decent, that is easily covered by Venus. At the net, Venus really only has difficulty against players who have a variety of different ways of winning the point from her at the net.

And as for Serena, it's funny to see people hanging on to that Sydney result for dear life. In that same tournament, Serena escaped Stosur by a similar score. And that was before Stosur made all the changes in her game that would result in her current ranking. Serena was then completely embarassed by Elena in the final. Those results tell us that the tightness of the match wasmore to do with the fact that she was playing badly all week than anything else.

The Dawntreader
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:25 PM
who knows? i do worry serena will return too early. i think she desperately will want to play wimbledon but it just seems so soon after what has gone on.

as for venus, the match would be on her racket, but it is a lot of the time and she still loses.

Venus is inherently erratic off the ground, but i still don't see how Wozniacki can make any in-roads into this match-up. Venus has enough leverage given her height and strength to pound away those loopy forehands by Woz, and even Venus circa 2011 can generate enough width and angle to out-manuever Woz and move into the forecourt.

I could only see Venus losing if she made a shitheap of errors. Woz attempting to implement pace would only serve to give Venus more rythm.

Vikapower
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:25 PM
it's amazing how much you say caro sucks especially when she was to go up against the best player on tour in maria...now venus is a superior player to maria yet caro is now the greatest youngsters to have ever played?? :lol:

Your reasoning has no head nor tail... if I schematize in your opinion Caro Woz >>> Vee >>> Maria !? What has Vee done to be rated that so effectively !?

Caro Woz isn't the greatest youngster to have ever played... but she is certainly (arguably) - one - of the greatest youngsters to have ever played... how great is it for you to change the original to mock my truthfull thoughts !? :)

Anyways it still comes to Caro Woz in the actuals >>> Vee... and Vee's success outside grass totally depends on how effectively Caro Woz the actual world #1 performs...

If Piotr keeps her rolling then Vee's comeback will not be as high as her hard-core fans might want it to be since she can or will be intimidated by the greatness of the Danish wall of death... sorrow... and pain...

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:27 PM
Venus is inherently erratic off the ground, but i still don't see how Wozniacki can make any in-roads into this match-up. Venus has enough leverage given her height and strength to pound away those loopy forehands by Woz, and even Venus circa 2011 can generate enough width and angle to out-manuever Woz and move into the forecourt.

I could only see Venus losing if she made a shitheap of errors. Woz attempting to implement pace would only serve to give Venus more rythm.

if venus comes back in the shape/form she was in in australia (zahlavova giving her fits from the baseline) then she is fucked vs caro :tape:

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:27 PM
Your reasoning has no head nor tail... if I schematize in your opinion Caro Woz >>> Vee >>> Maria !? What has Vee done to be rated that so effectively !?

Caro Woz isn't the greatest youngster to have ever played... but she is certainly (arguably) - one - of the greatest youngsters to have ever played... how great is it for you to change the original to mock my truthfull thoughts !? :)

Anyways it still comes to Caro Woz in the actuals >>> Vee... and Vee's success outside grass totally depends on how effectively Caro Woz the actual world #1 performs...

If Piotr keeps her rolling then Vee's comeback will not be as high as her hard-core fans might want it to be since she can or will be intimidated by the greatness of the Danish wall of death... sorrow... and pain...

7 slams say more than either....that's how i counter what nonsense comes after that one statement :lol:

Olórin
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:30 PM
Your reasoning has no head nor tail... if I schematize in your opinion Caro Woz >>> Vee >>> Maria !? What has Vee done to be rated that so effectively !?

Caro Woz isn't the greatest youngster to have ever played... but she is certainly (arguably) - one - of the greatest youngsters to have ever played... how great is it for you to change the original to mock my truthfull thoughts !? :)

Anyways it still comes to Caro Woz in the actuals >>> Vee... and Vee's success outside grass totally depends on how effectively Caro Woz the actual world #1 performs...

If Piotr keeps her rolling then Vee's comeback will not be as high as her hard-core fans might want it to be since she can or will be intimidated by the greatness of the Danish wall of death... sorrow... and pain...

Wow, you are just completely demented...:lol:

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:36 PM
Wow, you are just completely demented...:lol:


oh no...this word is the bat signal for one poster :scared:

MakarovaFan
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:37 PM
If Woz is ever going to beat any of the Big 4, her best chance is Venus, or Serena in the first month or two of her comeback(if she hasn't been staying fit.) Venus is known to put on a horrorfest against counterpunchers/players who can extend her in rallies(Losing H2H against JJ, Clijsters including 5 in a row.) While Wozniacki is inferior to Jaja and especially Kim in offensive capabilities, I consider her an even better defender than the both of them. If Venus and Caro were to meet, and my life depended on it, I would have to bet on Caro sadly.

2010Rena would roast Caro IMO, that was really some of the best shape I'd seen her in in a while. However, inactivity will make her rusty, not to mention she hasn't looked quite as lean last time I saw her, compared to Wimbledon 2010 where she looked very much like she did in 2004 IMO. Her fitness isn't going to be right for the first couple of months of her comeback, so Caro can exhaust her and take a win, particularly outside of the slams. In a slam though, I would still put money on Serena, but she won't annihilate her in two easy sets like alot of people in GM would say(Unless it's at, say, Wimb Final)
You sure you have the right year....she was very patchy in Sydeny and The latter AO stages, rusty the entire clay season and bar her serve very mediocre in Wimbledon(though her serve so made up for it)........id say Caro now would sadly beat Serena 2010 anywhere other than the grass.

The Dawntreader
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:39 PM
if venus comes back in the shape/form she was in in australia (zahlavova giving her fits from the baseline) then she is fucked vs caro :tape:

:lol: Granted, she was moving like a hooker after a bad weekend, but the contrast in quality is still vast in this match-up.

Plus Wozniacki's average returning will hardly trouble Venus. Especially if she's serving gigantic.

VeeJJ
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:47 PM
After she plays them few times in her current form I would make it an even shot. The first few times no, but after she figures out what to do with them she'll win or it'll be tight, she is a good tactician.

Moveyourfeet
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:59 PM
If they are fit, they would both beat her. It will be slightly easier for Venus than for Serena.

Maza1987
Mar 21st, 2011, 11:59 PM
@ the OP:
"Off yo'self".

Stamp Paid
Mar 22nd, 2011, 12:15 AM
Venus dusts Caro aside like its nothing.
Serena is the one who, while only playing her twice, was battling the entire time.
Serena is a better player than Venus for sure, but Wozniacki's game plays right into Venus' hands. But Caro has the potential to annoy and disrupt Serena.

Vikapower
Mar 22nd, 2011, 12:42 AM
7 slams say more than either....that's how i counter what nonsense comes after that one statement :lol:

Ha la la... Why did I ask that question to have once again the classic Vee fan answer of 7 far gone majors... I wonder how long will you all thrieve on the past of a player who has been non-existent outside grass since 2001... Vee greater than Maria... pffff...

Wow, you are just completely demented...:lol:

Logic works both ways... people say Djokozniacki is the greatest player of the field without the WS... then logic also wants one to admit that even with the WS' comeback Djokozniacki will still be the greatest... and will handle the sisters with unforgettable defeats... this more for Vee though.

Serena herself said that it's time for others than me to accept her as the greatest and #1 only her fans are delusionally still waiting for Rena to do something special on the tour with Djokozniacki's dominance...

My vision of Caro Woz stays the same and perpetual...

new-york
Mar 22nd, 2011, 01:08 AM
We're not talking careers, we're talking matchups.

It'd be nice for you to express yourself without feeling the need to bring down some players to make your faves look good.

The whole board could be all over you for putting Maria in the potential winner list of Miami when she only managed to win 3 games vs the almighty Woz, but we civilized people understand that every week is a fresh start, tennis is unpredictable and that being a fan comes with illusions.

Venus in only falling out of the top 10 now whereas her last 4 tournaments are the last 4 slams, so she must have won some matches.

Sometimes she does look like she could lose to Bette Midler, but despite not winning slams she still had some good wins since her last Wimbledon and some against people you are worshipping.

GEEZ.

50Sense
Mar 22nd, 2011, 01:17 AM
Ha la la... Why did I ask that question to have once again the classic Vee fan answer of 7 far gone majors... I wonder how long will you all thrieve on the past of a player who has been non-existent outside grass since 2001... Vee greater than Maria... pffff...



Logic works both ways... people say Djokozniacki is the greatest player of the field without the WS... then logic also wants one to admit that even with the WS' comeback Djokozniacki will still be the greatest... and will handle the sisters with unforgettable defeats... this more for Vee though.

Serena herself said that it's time for others than me to accept her as the greatest and #1 only her fans are delusionally still waiting for Rena to do something special on the tour with Djokozniacki's dominance...

My vision of Caro Woz stays the same and perpetual...

And Maria's recent slam results say what, exactly?

young_gunner913
Mar 22nd, 2011, 01:23 AM
She may be favored but that doesn't mean she'll win.

Shinjiro
Mar 22nd, 2011, 01:25 AM
Favoured by the crowd, yes.

Vikapower
Mar 22nd, 2011, 01:42 AM
And Maria's recent slam results say what, exactly?

Both girls have done worst in GS the last 2 years than ever... why that question since the answer is obvious !?

It's evident that anybody with common sense knows 7 > 3 but anybody with that same common sense also knows 3 > 2... wich makes the player with 3 greater than the player with 2... I'm baffled I still have to intoduce these on a tennis forum... :S

To resume 3(3) > 7(2)... this another greatness discussion is boring already... why do we always have to play my fave is greater than your fave !? The obvious always is turned into delusion to favor the unreal projections of some (fanatic) fans.

tkutsaar
Mar 22nd, 2011, 02:10 AM
I think the age factor and thus fitness is what gives the edge to Wozniacki; to state the obvious Woz is 20 the Williams sisters are 30 & 29. The Williams sisters are skilful enough to beat most of the players on tour but Wozniaki has the skills that make beating her problematic. I believe that even assuming complete recovery from their injuries the Williams sisters now lack the stamina that is necessary to beat Caro.

Maddox
Mar 22nd, 2011, 06:44 AM
She may be favored but that doesn't mean she'll win.

Exactly.

vwfan
Mar 22nd, 2011, 06:47 AM
both vulnerable on clay, but grass and fast hardcourts: forget it!

bandabou
Mar 22nd, 2011, 07:29 AM
Serena hasn't played in almost 9 months now and Venus hasn't played in what now 4/5 months?, so..not a good question. When they both are healthy and fit, they bring something that Caro hasn't faced in a long time: a SERVE! Caro isn't an agressive returner, more a put the ball in play-type. That leaves her vulnerable to being aced or jammed with big serves.

Should be a good match. If she gets Venus on a bad day, it can get ugly. Serena usually struggles more with retrievers, but she still beats them in the end.

The Witch-king
Mar 22nd, 2011, 06:55 PM
Sometimes she does look like she could lose to Bette Midler

:lol:

Siyasema
Mar 22nd, 2011, 07:29 PM
The head-to-head is abysmal now for the Dane, but Wozniacki is currently in top shape and we do not know what kind of form will Venus and Serena be coming back in... The sisters have returned from long layouts and quickly regained their prowess and winning ways before, but injuries have been taking a higher toll lately. A fit backboard like Woz could worry especially Venus, who tends to be more streaky when in error-prone mode, but maybe a challenge like the number 1 ranked player is what takes Venus to a more focused game. Caroline, on the other hand, still has the non-existing Slam title weighting down on her shoulders, a concern that is probably affecting her performance with each missed opportunity, and both sisters are proven Slam contenders and extremely dangerous opponents in the second week, no matter what shape they are in.

Head-to-head aside, there is no guarantee of results in tennis, so this could be a very intriguing match if it were to occur someday...

The key wording for me is now. With both Serena and Venus injured, I don't see why this question is being asked. It's almost admitting that this is the only reason why Caroline would be favored. Surely she wasn't favored in the last two years when both sisters were healthy. Not much respect is given either way with this.

swim4life227
Mar 22nd, 2011, 08:28 PM
The Caro/Serena Sydney 2009 match is misleading because anyone who followed the beginning of 2009 knows Serena was in HORRID form. HORRID. She played terrible at the AO until the tail end of the 2nd set versus Kuzzy where she got her shit together.

Matt01
Mar 22nd, 2011, 08:53 PM
The Caro/Serena Sydney 2009 match is misleading because anyone who followed the beginning of 2009 knows Serena was in HORRID form. HORRID. She played terrible at the AO until the tail end of the 2nd set versus Kuzzy where she got her shit together.


Serena is quite in "horrid form" in almost all events that are not Slams for years now.

Vikapower
Apr 14th, 2011, 10:51 PM
The head-to-head is abysmal now for the Dane, but Wozniacki is currently in top shape and we do not know what kind of form will Venus and Serena be coming back in... The sisters have returned from long layouts and quickly regained their prowess and winning ways before, but injuries have been taking a higher toll lately. A fit backboard like Woz could worry especially Venus, who tends to be more streaky when in error-prone mode, but maybe a challenge like the number 1 ranked player is what takes Venus to a more focused game. Caroline, on the other hand, still has the non-existing Slam title weighting down on her shoulders, a concern that is probably affecting her performance with each missed opportunity, and both sisters are proven Slam contenders and extremely dangerous opponents in the second week, no matter what shape they are in.

Head-to-head aside, there is no guarantee of results in tennis, so this could be a very intriguing match if it were to occur someday...

I agree and we'll get to see not too far from now...

Kairi
Apr 15th, 2011, 12:04 AM
a Vee/Caro matchup at Wimbledon would be EPIC.....a replay of the 2009 Semis maybe? :oh:

In The Zone
Apr 15th, 2011, 12:15 AM
Wozniacki has a better chance against Serena than Venus. Venus would eat her game up. She is not strong enough like a Jankovic to redirect and push Venus around the baseline.

Serena, however, given her sometimes suspect movement, would have a tougher time. See YEC (before retirement) and Sydney.

In The Zone
Apr 15th, 2011, 12:16 AM
Venus - Wozniacki
6-4 6-4
6-3 7-5
6-2 6-2
6-3 6-3

Serena - Wozniacki
6-7(5) 6-3 7-6(3)
6-4 0-1(till she had those cramp attacks)

Wozniacki is Venus' Capriati
as
Wozniacki is Serena's Capriati

EXACTLY.

There is only one player on tour both sisters have tough times with: Jelena Jankovic.

tkutsaar
Apr 15th, 2011, 01:25 AM
For those of you to put so much stock in the h2h results of Caro vs the Williams sisters let me point out these facts. Steffi Graf was 0-6 against Chris Evert before ending up 8-6 in Steffi’s favor. Likewise Steffi was 1-5 against Martina Navratilova before ending up 9-9 h2h. Without delving into who was the superior player amongst those three- the main fact is that Steffi was(actually is) around 13 to 15 years younger than those two greats. That is the most important factor in explaining those results.

Caro is around 9 and 10 years younger than the Williams sisters so that alone gives her the edge. But what is really telling is the injuries the Williams sisters are presently suffering. Especially Serena who suffered not just a physical injury but potentially a life threatening health setback only little more than a month ago. The Serena fans on this forum understandably I guess, minimize Serena’s health condition and expect her to come back and play tennis as if nothing has occurred. They are buoyed by the news Serena has started practicing but as encouraging as that news might seem it is a mirage.

The point is Serena is not suffering a run of the mill athletic injury where there is a healing period and then everything returns to normal. She now has a medical condition where she certainly can lead a healthy normal life but makes it doubtful that she can put extraordinary pressure on her body such as playing highly competitive tennis. I would say her career is over. She may practice and go on tour and enter a tournament but I expect she will officially retire within a month of returning to tennis.

As for Venus at least she has a run of the mill athletic injury but she will soon be 31 years of age- i.e. she is about one year older than Steffi was when she retired. Yes Venus had a remarkable run in the ’10 USO giving her fans hope but again using the Steffi example- Steffi won the FO and was a finalist at Wimbledon but she subsequently lost to an opponent who had no business beating her and that was it for Steffi.
Maybe Venus will be stubborn and try to hang on but she is not going anywhere. Past results are just that past results. I expect Venus will also soon retire after she gets beaten a few times by players who have no business in beating her.

Thus I refuse to answer this thread question since I don’t think such matches will occur.

BepaMaria
Apr 15th, 2011, 02:00 AM
She would only be favoured if she faces Venus on clay.

Pops Maellard
Apr 15th, 2011, 03:53 AM
In terms of the slams I'd favour Caro VS Venus at Australian and French Opens but not Wimbledon or US Open.

I wouldn't favour her to beat Serena at any of the slams (the French would be her best bet but it's still taken a mighty performance to beat her there the past couple of years).

Outside the slams, it's anyone's guess. :lol:

bandabou
Apr 15th, 2011, 07:05 AM
For those of you to put so much stock in the h2h results of Caro vs the Williams sisters let me point out these facts. Steffi Graf was 0-6 against Chris Evert before ending up 8-6 in Steffi’s favor. Likewise Steffi was 1-5 against Martina Navratilova before ending up 9-9 h2h. Without delving into who was the superior player amongst those three- the main fact is that Steffi was(actually is) around 13 to 15 years younger than those two greats. That is the most important factor in explaining those results.

Caro is around 9 and 10 years younger than the Williams sisters so that alone gives her the edge. But what is really telling is the injuries the Williams sisters are presently suffering. Especially Serena who suffered not just a physical injury but potentially a life threatening health setback only little more than a month ago. The Serena fans on this forum understandably I guess, minimize Serena’s health condition and expect her to come back and play tennis as if nothing has occurred. They are buoyed by the news Serena has started practicing but as encouraging as that news might seem it is a mirage.

The point is Serena is not suffering a run of the mill athletic injury where there is a healing period and then everything returns to normal. She now has a medical condition where she certainly can lead a healthy normal life but makes it doubtful that she can put extraordinary pressure on her body such as playing highly competitive tennis. I would say her career is over. She may practice and go on tour and enter a tournament but I expect she will officially retire within a month of returning to tennis.

As for Venus at least she has a run of the mill athletic injury but she will soon be 31 years of age- i.e. she is about one year older than Steffi was when she retired. Yes Venus had a remarkable run in the ’10 USO giving her fans hope but again using the Steffi example- Steffi won the FO and was a finalist at Wimbledon but she subsequently lost to an opponent who had no business beating her and that was it for Steffi.
Maybe Venus will be stubborn and try to hang on but she is not going anywhere. Past results are just that past results. I expect Venus will also soon retire after she gets beaten a few times by players who have no business in beating her.

Thus I refuse to answer this thread question since I don’t think such matches will occur.

Nice theory...but Caro's game isn't a game that's gonna expose Serena nor Venus (lack) of athletiscism. Caro's game still leaves opponents with plenty of time..it's a matter of: Can the opponent finish points off with commiting the error?

So..it should be a fun match-up. Just waiting out for Serena..in what for shape she comes back in.

The Witch-king
Apr 15th, 2011, 07:23 AM
Maybe Venus will be stubborn and try to hang on but she is not going anywhere. Past results are just that past results. I expect Venus will also soon retire after she gets beaten a few times by players who have no business in beating her.
You mean like she's been doing for the past 15 years?:confused:



Thus I refuse to answer this thread question since I don’t think such matches will occur.
girl u just spent half an hour typing that novel just to say you refuse to answer the question:lol:

poulao
Apr 15th, 2011, 08:21 AM
No, I don't think so.

She is 4-0 down on Venus (2007-2008)
She is 2-0 down on Serena (2009)
She is 2-0 down on Kim (2009-2010)

It does not make her the favorit, but it is likely, she still has to start beating them. :lol:

Jorn
Apr 15th, 2011, 09:24 AM
The WS will only play at nearly 100%, but if they toke wildcards into Stuttgart, Caro may be the fave there...

JamieOwen3
Apr 15th, 2011, 09:47 AM
It will be interesting to see how she deals with it.especially when she plays serena,will she go in there and try too hard because she would have something to prove, plus being the top ranked player who is the form player?
Saying this i dont think another thread should have been opened just so say all that as it`s basically what`s been said in other threads. :p

Miracle Worker
Apr 15th, 2011, 10:12 AM
The WS will only play at nearly 100%, but if they toke wildcards into Stuttgart, Caro may be the fave there...

:eek: WC to Stuttgart? :eek:

Ivanovic2008
Apr 15th, 2011, 07:20 PM
Against Venus but Probably not Serena.