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View Full Version : GOAT #1 in 2003: Serena or Justine*?


Direwolf
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Serena 2 Slams. AO+Wimbledon
Juju 2 Slams. FO*+USO*.

doooma6816
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:33 PM
Juju.

DefyingGravity
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:37 PM
This was the year of Justine, honestly. Though had Serena played the USO....maybe Justine may not have won that one.

Lucemferre
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:38 PM
Serena didn't play after wimbledon :o

Direwolf
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:40 PM
This was the year of Justine, honestly. Though had Serena played the USO....maybe Justine may not have won that one.

Serena didn't play after wimbledon :o

This leads to.

Was Serena's Knee Operation Necessary after Wimbledon?

Lucemferre
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:40 PM
This leads to.

Was Serena's Knee Operation Necessary after Wimbledon?

I'm not a doctor I don't know.

omoruyi
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:42 PM
why is there an asterisk...

Direwolf
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:42 PM
I'm not a doctor I don't know.

uhmmm no...

That's my next poll.

Direwolf
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:44 PM
why is there an asterisk...

Her name used to be Christine.
;)

Alejandrawrrr
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:47 PM
Why is this a multiple choice poll?

(Serena, BTW. 2/3 is better than 2/4, really. Plus neither Williams, the dominant players at that time played the USO, so... Yeah.)

selesisqueen
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:55 PM
It is pretty stupid to vote someone based on a "what if" for injury. Injuries are part of the sport. If you start doing that Henin was really the dominant #1 in 2004 since she would have won everything without her viral infection, Graf is the dominant #1 of 1997 since Hingis never would have risen to the top so soon without her injury problems, Sharpova is the real #1 for 2008 as she probably would have ended up with the best overall year without her injuries even if she didnt win another slam.

The stats as it is are clearly in Henin's favor even though both won 2 slams.

Human Nature
Sep 30th, 2010, 08:57 PM
I respect Juju but she hardly beat serena in RG her best surface
And was spanked by serena at Wimbledon

No way she would have won the USO (Hard court ) with serena in the draw that year

Serena for me

Direwolf
Sep 30th, 2010, 09:10 PM
It is pretty stupid to vote someone based on a "what if" for injury. Injuries are part of the sport. If you start doing that Henin was really the dominant #1 in 2004 since she would have won everything without her viral infection, Graf is the dominant #1 of 1997 since Hingis never would have risen to the top so soon without her injury problems, Sharpova is the real #1 for 2008 as she probably would have ended up with the best overall year without her injuries even if she didnt win another slam.

The stats as it is are clearly in Henin's favor even though both won 2 slams.

Nonsense.

danieln1
Sep 30th, 2010, 09:42 PM
Serena would have won Roland Garros if someone´s hand hadn´t show up in that semi...

Serena was the true number 1 that year, no doubt about it!

Gdsimmons
Sep 30th, 2010, 09:57 PM
Serena. Gee that was easy

Matt01
Sep 30th, 2010, 10:24 PM
Justine. Gee that was easy

Uranus
Sep 30th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Justine. Breakthrough year. Number 1. As many slams, but more titles and more dominant all year overall. Serena didn't even play for months.

n1_and_uh_noone
Sep 30th, 2010, 10:34 PM
I am voting for the mysterious Justine*, because she sounds a lot like my idol Justine...

Olórin
Sep 30th, 2010, 10:47 PM
Serena would have won Roland Garros if someone´s hand hadn´t show up in that semi...

Serena was the true number 1 that year, no doubt about it!

...

hurricanejeanne
Sep 30th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Honestly, I think this is about even really. :shrug: "If" Serena could have played the USO that year, things may have turned out different, alas we'll never know.

jimmy_the_greek
Sep 30th, 2010, 11:07 PM
Serena

Conor
Sep 30th, 2010, 11:32 PM
Justine. Break through year (first time grand slam champion), more titles, she stayed fit and healthy to play the whole season, finished as world number 1. I mean, its facts. As amazing as Serena's season was, Justine's was better. I dont see how you can argue with it.

Diesel
Oct 1st, 2010, 12:31 AM
Serena. Gee that was easy

Pretty much :yeah:

pierce85
Oct 1st, 2010, 01:24 AM
Justine. Gee that was easy

Pretty much :worship:

Pops Maellard
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:13 AM
Serena.

In The Zone
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:14 AM
Justine won a Serena-less slam plus cheated to win one of her slams.

Serena.

shoryuken
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:20 AM
Serena easy

geoepee
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:34 AM
Serena, no question at all. A lot of people don't mention this: not only was Serena missing from the 2003 US Open; but Venus Williams, finalist of the last 5 out of 6 slams, and 3 time in a row US Open finalist (champion in 2000, 2001) was missing as well.

Serena, no doubt.

SymphonyX
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:50 AM
Justine. Because she had more Tier 1 titles and the same amount of slams that year.

"What if" situations are garbage. I couldn't care less if Serena would've won instead if she was around. Fact it, she wasn't around, which is why Justine is No. 1. I mean, this isn't Dinara Safina. She halved the year's slams with Serena. Besides, these "What ifs" usually turn into a Player A vs Player B virtual fistfights. I'd prefer we stick to their achievements as basis to deserve a No. 1 ranking.

P.S. It's funny how Clijsters was like the Dinara Safina of that year.

Alejandrawrrr
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:01 AM
Justine. Because she had more Tier 1 titles and the same amount of slams that year.

"What if" situations are garbage. I couldn't care less if Serena would've won instead if she was around. Fact it, she wasn't around, which is why Justine is No. 1. I mean, this isn't Dinara Safina. She halved the year's slams with Serena. Besides, these "What ifs" usually turn into a Player A vs Player B virtual fistfights. I'd prefer we stick to their achievements as basis to deserve a No. 1 ranking.

P.S. It's funny how Clijsters was like the Dinara Safina of that year.

When you win a slam with the two most dominant players of the past two years not playing(making a combined total of 10/12 in GS Finals) you get an asterisk next to it :shrug:

I mean, if it was RG that they didn't play, who cares. But one or both Williamses were in the US Open final and won each year since 99... Not to mention Henin was still their plaything in H2H at that point. But Justine* won so that's all history.

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:03 AM
Serena = Goat of 2003


Juju = Cheated to win 1 slam and in the other she was just

the mouse that played while the Cat was away.

Roookie
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:12 AM
Jameka*

AcesHigh
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:13 AM
Is this poll for realz? :rolls:

Stern
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:49 AM
Serena would have won Roland Garros if someone´s hand hadn´t show up in that semi...

Serena was the true number 1 that year, no doubt about it!this

Stern
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:49 AM
Serena = Goat of 2003


Juju = Cheated to win 1 slam and in the other she was just

the mouse that played while the Cat was away.and this

Toxic
Oct 1st, 2010, 04:44 AM
Henin? http://i41.tinypic.com/i3wcd1.jpg

Lmao...

Serena Queen Williams of Course... http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5508/7dc1a6f26139.gif

Beat
Oct 1st, 2010, 06:13 AM
BTW. 2/3 is better than 2/4

and 15/25 is better than 20/40, too, right? :spit:

Human Nature
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:35 AM
Serena = Goat of 2003


Juju = Cheated to win 1 slam and in the other she was just

the mouse that played while the Cat was away.


Exactely !

In everybody's mind Juju was World N 1 by default

She couldnt beat THIS serena ON HARD COURTS
She won because she was the second best of the year but the level serena displayed all along the year was WAY too high for her back then

Not to mention the shameful way she won this RG

Juju started being TRUE first only from 2006

Direwolf
Oct 1st, 2010, 08:11 AM
Serena = Goat of 2003


Juju = Cheated to win 1 slam and in the other she was just

the Mice that played while the Cats were away.

I think you made a mistake.

Had Venus not injured her Tummy.

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 11:09 AM
Exactely !

In everybody's mind Juju was World N 1 by default

She couldnt beat THIS serena ON HARD COURTS
She won because she was the second best of the year but the level serena displayed all along the year was WAY too high for her back then

Not to mention the shameful way she won this RG

Juju started being TRUE first only from 2006


:haha:

Serena's level too high for Justine? I guess Charleston and RG that year never happened in some people's minds :spit:


Serena, no question at all. A lot of people don't mention this: not only was Serena missing from the 2003 US Open; but Venus Williams, finalist of the last 5 out of 6 slams, and 3 time in a row US Open finalist (champion in 2000, 2001) was missing as well.


A lot of people don't mention this because Venus has nothing to do with this thread.

chloe-l
Oct 1st, 2010, 12:08 PM
It is pretty stupid to vote someone based on a "what if" for injury. Injuries are part of the sport. If you start doing that Henin was really the dominant #1 in 2004 since she would have won everything without her viral infection, Graf is the dominant #1 of 1997 since Hingis never would have risen to the top so soon without her injury problems, Sharpova is the real #1 for 2008 as she probably would have ended up with the best overall year without her injuries even if she didnt win another slam.

The stats as it is are clearly in Henin's favor even though both won 2 slams.

This.

Lucemferre
Oct 1st, 2010, 12:41 PM
Serena was the player to beat when she was playing so that was until after wimbledon.

2Black
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:21 PM
I respect Juju but she hardly beat serena in RG her best surface
And was spanked by serena at Wimbledon

No way she would have won the USO (Hard court ) with serena in the draw that year

Serena for me

THIS ... Yeah, at the time, Serena & Venus was better than Justine on hardcourt. Henin would not have won the US Open. So Serena was clearly the best in 2003.

StephenUK
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:34 PM
I am a Justine fan but I voted Serena overall, because she won two slams of the three she played, and I agree with those that argue that Serena and Venus would have been favourites to win the US Open title they had won between them over the four previous years, having been winner and losing finalist in 02.

On the other hand, I think some of the Justine haters are going totally OTT to say that Justine only won RG due to 'cheating' or 'the hand'. Let's face it, Justine emerged as the best player on clay in 2003 by beating Serena for the Charleston title and her victory over Williams in the French semi was her second out of two matches on that surface that year. So whilst I would say Serena was best on hard courts and grass that year, Justine was clearly superior to Serena on clay in 03, hand or no hand.

StephenUK
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:36 PM
Exactely !

In everybody's mind Juju was World N 1 by default

She couldnt beat THIS serena ON HARD COURTS
She won because she was the second best of the year but the level serena displayed all along the year was WAY too high for her back then

Not to mention the shameful way she won this RG

Juju started being TRUE first only from 2006

Justine beat Serena 2 out of 3 times in 03, by the way!

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:47 PM
I am a Justine fan but I voted Serena overall, because she won two slams of the three she played, and I agree with those that argue that Serena and Venus would have been favourites to win the US Open title they had won between them over the four previous years, having been winner and losing finalist in 02.


I don't understand why you voted for Serena :shrug:

Of course Serena and Venus would have been favorites at the US Open, but fact is that they didn't play there (for whatever reason) and "would have could have" doesn't count, does it? Justine won more tournaments than Serena, led the H2H, finished the year as true #1.

Kworb
Oct 1st, 2010, 02:58 PM
Sydney Tier II Hard Jan 12 2003
1 Henin(3) bye
2 Henin(3) - Janette Husarova-Q 6-1 6-0
QF Henin(3) - Amanda Coetzer 6-4 6-4
SF Kim Clijsters(2) - Henin(3) 6-2 6-3

Australian Open Hard Jan 26 2003
1 Henin(5) - Myriam Casanova 6-3 6-4
2 Henin(5) - Anna Kournikova 6-0 6-1
3 Henin(5) - Katarina Srebotnik(32) 6-2 6-0
4 Henin(5) - Lindsay Davenport(9) 7-5 5-7 9-7
QF Henin(5) - Virginia Ruano Pascual 6-2 6-2
SF Venus Williams(2) - Henin(5) 6-3 6-3

Antwerp Tier II Hard Feb 16 2003
1 Henin(3) bye
2 Henin(3) - Zuzana Ondraskova-Q 6-4 7-62
QF Henin(3) - Ai Sugiyama 6-2 6-4
SF Kim Clijsters(2) - Henin(3) 6-2 7-63

Dubai Tier II Hard Feb 23 2003
1 Henin(1) bye
2 Henin(1) - Anca Barna-Q 1-6 6-2 6-4
QF Henin(1) - Anastasia Myskina(5) 6-1 6-4
SF Henin(1) - Jennifer Capriati(3) 7-5 4-6 6-4
F Henin(1) - Monica Seles(4) 4-6 7-64 7-5

Key Biscayne Tier I Hard Mar 30 2003
1 Henin(4) bye
2 Henin(4) - Vera Douchevina-Q 6-3 6-2
3 Henin(4) - Tamarine Tanasugarn(30) 6-2 6-0
4 Henin(4) - Marlene Weingartner-Q 6-1 6-2
QF Chanda Rubin(12) - Henin(4) 6-3 6-2

Charleston Tier I Clay Apr 13 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Tina Pisnik 6-4 3-6 6-4
3 Henin(2) - Nathalie Dechy(14) 2-6 6-3 6-2
QF Henin(2) - Mary Pierce 6-2 6-3
SF Henin(2) - Ashley Harkleroad-WC 6-2 6-1
F Henin(2) - Serena Williams(1) 6-3 6-4

Amelia Island Tier II Clay Apr 20 2003
1 Henin(1) bye
2 Henin(1) - Dally Randriantefy 6-3 6-0
3 Henin(1) - Clarisa Fernandez(14) walkover
QF Henin(1) - Monica Seles(6) 6-2 6-4
SF Elena Dementieva(10) - Henin(1) 3-6 6-4 7-5

Fed Cup Apr 26 2003
Henin - Patricia Wartusch-aut 6-2 6-1

Berlin Tier I Clay May 11 2003
1 Henin(3) bye
2 Henin(3) - Daja Bedanova 6-4 6-1
3 Henin(3) - Patty Schnyder(15) 6-2 6-3
QF Henin(3) - Vera Zvonareva 6-4 7-5
SF Henin(3) - Amelie Mauresmo(5) 7-66 6-4
F Henin(3) - Kim Clijsters(1) 4-6 6-4 7-5

Roland Garros Clay Jun 8 2003
1 Henin(4) - Patricia Wartusch 6-3 7-5
2 Henin(4) - Jelena Kostanic 6-2 6-2
3 Henin(4) - Dally Randriantefy 6-1 6-1
4 Henin(4) - Patty Schnyder(19) 6-3 2-6 6-2
QF Henin(4) - Chanda Rubin(8) 6-3 6-2
SF Henin(4) - Serena Williams(1) 6-2 4-6 7-5
F Henin(4) - Kim Clijsters(2) 6-0 6-4

's-Hertogenbosch Tier III Grass Jun 22 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Maria Sanchez Lorenzo 6-4 6-3
QF Henin(2) - Ludmila Cervanova 3-6 7-5 6-3
SF Henin(2) - Nadia Petrova(5)-WC 5-7 7-65 6-3
F Kim Clijsters(1) - Henin(2) 6-74 3-0

Wimbledon Grass Jul 6 2003
1 Henin(3) - Julia Vakulenko 7-5 6-1
2 Henin(3) - Flavia Pennetta 7-62 6-1
3 Henin(3) - Alicia Molik 6-4 6-4
4 Henin(3) - Mary Pierce 6-3 6-3
QF Henin(3) - Svetlana Kuznetsova(33) 6-2 6-2
SF Serena Williams(1) - Henin(3) 6-3 6-2

Fed Cup Quarterfinals Jul 20 2003
Henin - Janette Husarova-svk 7-5 6-4
Henin - Eva Fislova-svk 6-2 6-1

San Diego Tier II Hard Aug 3 2003
1 Henin(3) bye
2 Henin(3) - Eleni Daniilidou 6-1 6-1
3 Henin(3) - Elena Dementieva(13) 4-6 6-4 6-1
QF Henin(3) - Nadia Petrova 6-0 6-2
SF Henin(3) - Svetlana Kuznetsova 6-1 6-3
F Henin(3) - Kim Clijsters(2) 3-6 6-2 6-3

Toronto Tier I Hard Aug 17 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Marion Bartoli 6-3 6-3
3 Henin(2) - Nadia Petrova(14) 6-3 7-5
QF Henin(2) - Elena Bovina(12) 6-2 6-4
SF Henin(2) - Elena Dementieva(9) 6-3 6-75 6-2
F Henin(2) - Lina Krasnoroutskaya 6-1 6-0

US Open Hard Sep 7 2003
1 Henin(2) - Aniko Kapros-Q 7-5 6-3
2 Henin(2) - Silvija Talaja 6-1 6-2
3 Henin(2) - Saori Obata 6-1 6-2
4 Henin(2) - Dinara Safina 6-0 6-3
QF Henin(2) - Anastasia Myskina(7) 6-2 6-3
SF Henin(2) - Jennifer Capriati(6) 4-6 7-5 7-64
F Henin(2) - Kim Clijsters(1) 7-5 6-1

Leipzig Tier II Carpet Sep 28 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Denisa Chladkova 6-1 6-2
QF Henin(2) - Els Callens-Q 6-2 6-4
SF Henin(2) - Maria Vento-Kabchi-Q 6-0 6-3
F Anastasia Myskina(3) - Henin(2) 3-6 6-3 6-3

Filderstadt Tier II Hard Oct 12 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Conchita Martinez 6-0 7-61
QF Henin(2) - Elena Dementieva(6) 7-5 6-0
SF Henin(2) - Elena Bovina 6-2 6-4
F Kim Clijsters(1) - Henin(2) 5-7 6-4 6-2

Zurich Tier I Hard Oct 19 2003
1 Henin(2) bye
2 Henin(2) - Anna Smashnova 6-1 7-61
QF Henin(2) - Vera Zvonareva(7) 6-4 6-2
SF Henin(2) - Nadia Petrova 6-4 6-4
F Henin(2) - Jelena Dokic 6-0 6-4

Championships Hard Nov 9 2003
RR Henin(2) - Anastasia Myskina(5) 7-5 5-7 7-5
RR Henin(2) - Jennifer Capriati(3) 6-2 6-1
RR Ai Sugiyama(7) - Henin(2) 6-2 6-4
SF Amelie Mauresmo(4) - Henin(2) 7-62 3-6 6-3

:worship:

azinna
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:12 PM
Well, since these "real #1" threads are expressly not about the actual rankings...Justine earned her slams and titles, but Serena proved herself to be the player to beat from January to July. Plus, I wouldn't sniff at having to complete a non-calendar grand slam, or even count that slam win in Australia as one would any other.

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:30 PM
When you win a slam with the two most dominant players of the past two years not playing(making a combined total of 10/12 in GS Finals) you get an asterisk next to it :shrug:

I mean, if it was RG that they didn't play, who cares. But one or both Williamses were in the US Open final and won each year since 99... Not to mention Henin was still their plaything in H2H at that point. But Justine* won so that's all history.

Gee, now that you mention it, I have to rethink things. They really should cancel Slams where past finalists/winners do not play :rolleyes:. How dare some players avoid injuries while others are sidelined!

Doully
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:32 PM
I don't understand why you voted for Serena :shrug:

Of course Serena and Venus would have been favorites at the US Open, but fact is that they didn't play there (for whatever reason) and "would have could have" doesn't count, does it? Justine won more tournaments than Serena, led the H2H, finished the year as true #1.

Agreed.
The fact stands that the Williams Sisters didn't play the US Open. That doesn't take anything away from Henin's achievement.

Being a favourite does not guarantee the fact that either Sister would have won either, regardless of the stats from the previous years.
Just look at the 09 US Open. Being the heavy favourite does not mean an awful lot on this tour.

tennis-insomniac
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:48 PM
I really do think both deserved number one spot but my honest feeling goes to Justine she worked so hard and overcome all the difficulties to achieve her dream

in the other hand , Serena started off the year brilliantly aiming for the year grand-slam, got through the SF at Rg but was heartbroken by the later-future number one but came back to win Justine in wimbledon SF and won the whole thing shows how much was still left, although she got injured because of dancing too hard :o gotta take care of yourself better than that

so I think it is Justine although I wanted to see Serena to end it no.1 but the belgian deserved her spot

DefyingGravity
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:52 PM
:haha:

Serena's level too high for Justine? I guess Charleston and RG that year never happened in some people's minds :spit:



Excuse me, but Justine only beat Serena on clay. She got slaughtered on grass by this Serena, and wouldn't do well on a similar (maybe even faster) surface. :wavey:

I will give her the Capriati win in the USO 2003....but she played her bitch at the time Kim, didn't play a seed at all until her quarterfinal against her other bitch Myskina....please.

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 03:56 PM
Excuse me, but Justine only beat Serena on clay. She got slaughtered on grass by this Serena, and wouldn't do well on a similar (maybe even faster) surface. :wavey:

I will give her the Capriati win in the USO 2003....but she played her bitch at the time Kim, didn't play a seed at all until her quarterfinal against her other bitch Myskina....please.


1. Which imaginary surface is faster than grass? :scratch:
Grass is not a more important surface than clay. And 2 > 1.

2. Oh, great, if we use these kind arguments I guess Serena's whole non-Calendar Grand Slam doesn't count since she played her bitch Venus all the time?

Human Nature
Oct 1st, 2010, 04:10 PM
Even after winning (by default ) the USOPEN she said " i will work hard and when serena comes back i will be ready " serena was not even there and still she was talking about her

This realy proves that in people 's minds including Henin herself serena was still the one to beat and above all the TRUE N1

RenaSlam.
Oct 1st, 2010, 04:16 PM
Serena. Obviously.

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 04:17 PM
Even after winning (by default ) the USOPEN she said " i will work hard and when serena comes back i will be ready " serena was not even there and still she was talking about her

This realy proves that in people 's minds including Henin herself serena was still the one to beat and above all the TRUE N1


Delusional.

AcesHigh
Oct 1st, 2010, 04:22 PM
I guess none of Serena's slams in 08 or 09 count bc the dominant player was gone?
And I guess sharapova's and henin's slams at USO without Kim there don't count either

Conor
Oct 1st, 2010, 05:54 PM
I honestly don't understand how this is even up for debate. Its FACTS. Justine had a better year. As they say, its not how you start but how you finish.

justineheninfan
Oct 1st, 2010, 05:55 PM
Excuse me, but Justine only beat Serena on clay. She got slaughtered on grass by this Serena, and wouldn't do well on a similar (maybe even faster) surface. :wavey:


Justine is a way better hard court player than grass. Grass is and always was her weakest surface (though she made her first final there in 2001 thanks completely to her cakewalk draw that year). No question she will always get well beaten by the Williams on grass under normal circumstances, and she probably cant even beat Davenport, Mauresmo, or Sharapova if they are in form on grass. I am sure if they played at the U.S Open however the match would have been very close. Justine is a far better hard court player than grass court and in her prime was always able to play with the best on that surface.

And Justine's game fell well off her best in the FO semis after the 1st set but she still managed to win in the end. At Charleston when Henin played more up to her usual standards on clay it was a pretty easy win.

Uranus
Oct 1st, 2010, 05:56 PM
Well, Serena probably had a higher level before she got injured - except on clay.
Still, we're asking who was the #1 player in 2003. For her consistency throughout the year (Serena spent months away from the courts), the fact she won as many slams but more titles all year long, and ended as world #1. She's the player we heard about the most that year. It's like in 2004, Justine started as a dominant player, then got sick during the clay court season, and still was strong enough to come back and win the Olympics; however, I wouldn't say she was the player of the year, just because her overall level was better before she somehow left. 2003 is the year of the Belgians, not the Williams, who were absolutely dominant before.

AkademiQ
Oct 1st, 2010, 05:58 PM
No issue here at all. Serena.

selesisqueen
Oct 1st, 2010, 06:16 PM
LOL I cant believe Serena is winning this poll. Injury what ifs mean nothing. Injuries are part of the game. It is not like being nearly killed by a sharp knife by the associate of a rival. There are people willing to give Serena and others benefit of doubt for an injury which is part of sport that wouldnt for Seles for being stabbed which is totally different and far worse. Disgusting.

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:07 PM
I think you made a mistake.

Had Venus not injured her Tummy.


You're right I thought about making Cat plural, but the

thread was about Juju and Ree

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:11 PM
:haha:

Serena's level too high for Justine? I guess Charleston and RG that year never happened in some people's minds :spit:



A lot of people don't mention this because Venus has nothing to do with this thread.


Everyone remembers RG: Thats when Henin cheated, and no one cares

about Charleston

Of course Henin fans don't want to mention it, because Venus would

have tapped that ass too.

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:19 PM
Justine beat Serena 2 out of 3 times in 03, by the way!

This was your highlighted statement:

" She couldnt beat THIS serena ON HARD COURTS "

Charleston and RG are not hardcourts.

DefyingGravity
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:25 PM
Justine is a way better hard court player than grass. Grass is and always was her weakest surface (though she made her first final there in 2001 thanks completely to her cakewalk draw that year). No question she will always get well beaten by the Williams on grass under normal circumstances, and she probably cant even beat Davenport, Mauresmo, or Sharapova if they are in form on grass. I am sure if they played at the U.S Open however the match would have been very close. Justine is a far better hard court player than grass court and in her prime was always able to play with the best on that surface

And Justine's game fell well off her best in the FO semis after the 1st set but she still managed to win in the end. At Charleston when Henin played more up to her usual standards on clay it was a pretty easy win.

It depends...the U.S. Open is a very quick hard court surface. Justine 2007 definitely wins the USO any day of the week because that bitch was scary BUT...Justine 2003 nearly lost to Dementieva in Toronto, and wasn't even CHALLENGED by anyone. She nearly lost to Jen (really should have had Jennifer had any kind of brain), lost to CHANDA RUBIN in Miami....2003 Justine was not the good hard court player that 2004-tine or 2007-tine was. Serena would have obliterated her on arguably her best surface. And by the way, if you're going to use the B.S. excuse that grass isn't a good surface for Justine...then I can use the B.S. excuse that clay isn't a good surface for Serena....so there you go.

And to Matt01...if you can make the same argument against Serena's entire Serena Slam, then I have the right to put asteriks next to Justine's 03 USO and 04 Australian Open.

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:31 PM
I am a Justine fan but I voted Serena overall, because she won two slams of the three she played, and I agree with those that argue that Serena and Venus would have been favourites to win the US Open title they had won between them over the four previous years, having been winner and losing finalist in 02.

On the other hand, I think some of the Justine haters are going totally OTT to say that Justine only won RG due to 'cheating' or 'the hand'. Let's face it, Justine emerged as the best player on clay in 2003 by beating Serena for the Charleston title and her victory over Williams in the French semi was her second out of two matches on that surface that year. So whilst I would say Serena was best on hard courts and grass that year, Justine was clearly superior to Serena on clay in 03, hand or no hand.


Trailing 4-2...30-0 in the third set is not clearly superior.

After the cheating the whole match changed, and it was not due

to superior play.

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:34 PM
It depends...the U.S. Open is a very quick hard court surface. Justine 2007 definitely wins the USO any day of the week because that bitch was scary BUT...Justine 2003 nearly lost to Dementieva in Toronto, and wasn't even CHALLENGED by anyone. She nearly lost to Jen (really should have had Jennifer had any kind of brain), lost to CHANDA RUBIN in Miami....2003 Justine was not the good hard court player that 2004-tine or 2007-tine was. Serena would have obliterated her on arguably her best surface. And by the way, if you're going to use the B.S. excuse that grass isn't a good surface for Justine...then I can use the B.S. excuse that clay isn't a good surface for Serena....so there you go.

And to Matt01...if you can make the same argument against Serena's entire Serena Slam, then I have the right to put asteriks next to Justine's 03 USO and 04 Australian Open.

Yeah, true. 3+ hours, cramping, dehydration, 3rd set tiebreak win in the semifinal over home favorite (and returning to thrash future queen of the USO the very next night) count for nothing.

rjd1111
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:40 PM
I guess none of Serena's slams in 08 or 09 count bc the dominant player was gone?
And I guess sharapova's and henin's slams at USO without Kim there don't count either


But Serena was the dominant player in '08 and '09.

Thats when she ran Henin out of tennis with the worst

whippin a No 1 player ever suffered in Miami.

DefyingGravity
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:50 PM
Yeah, true. 3+ hours, cramping, dehydration, 3rd set tiebreak win in the semifinal over home favorite (and returning to thrash future queen of the USO the very next night) count for nothing.

Again, it was more Jennifer's fault for prolonging the match.

She was two points away how many times? And how much of a mental midget was Jennifer? Was Justine's overall play in the first two sets better than Jennifer's: hell no. Jennifer should have wrapped that up in an hour and 20 and got her fourth slam.

But she didn't because she hadn't beaten Justine in 2003...at all...

bandabou
Oct 1st, 2010, 07:51 PM
Serena...sure Juju had Serena's number on clay..but that was it. The way Serena was playing on non-clay surfaces, the other 3 majors could only have one winner: Serena.

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 1st, 2010, 08:09 PM
Again, it was more Jennifer's fault for prolonging the match.

She was two points away how many times? And how much of a mental midget was Jennifer? Was Justine's overall play in the first two sets better than Jennifer's: hell no. Jennifer should have wrapped that up in an hour and 20 and got her fourth slam.

But she didn't because she hadn't beaten Justine in 2003...at all...

Makes absolutely no sense. You say Capriati should have won the match with ease (was down 2 breaks in 1st set and benefited from crucial error on a line call to grab momentum in 1st set, never reached matchpoint), and yet somehow the match wasn't a challenge for Justine?? :confused:

Only thing I agree with is that the quality of the match was rather average, with some incredible highs but mostly a lot of drama.

DefyingGravity
Oct 1st, 2010, 08:10 PM
Makes absolutely no sense. You say Capriati should have won the match with ease (was down 2 breaks in 1st set and benefited from crucial error on a line call to grab momentum in 1st set, never reached matchpoint), and yet somehow the match wasn't a challenge for Justine?? :confused:

Only thing I agree with is that the quality of the match was rather average, with some incredible highs but mostly a lot of drama.

Justine complicated it for herself and made it a challenge. It should never have been that difficult.

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 1st, 2010, 08:17 PM
Justine complicated it for herself and made it a challenge. It should never have been that difficult.

Make up your mind. First it was Capriati prolonging the match, then Justine complicating it. :lol:

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 08:40 PM
And to Matt01...if you can make the same argument against Serena's entire Serena Slam, then I have the right to put asteriks next to Justine's 03 USO and 04 Australian Open.


I think you didn'tunderstand. I was not posting that stuff to denigrate Serena's Slam wins. I was posting that to show you how illogical and stupid your argumentation is. :)

DefyingGravity
Oct 1st, 2010, 09:18 PM
Make up your mind. First it was Capriati prolonging the match, then Justine complicating it. :lol:

Lol, Justine really overcomplicated the whole thing, having rewatched some highlights.

And Matt01, I originally said that she may or may not have won the USO....she's proven herself in 2007 to be a GREAT hard court player, but in 2003...idk if she was ready for it yet. She didn't really look stellar in the hard court season. Really, Kim and Davenport only did IMHO.

justineheninfan
Oct 1st, 2010, 09:32 PM
She didn't really look stellar in the hard court season. Really, Kim and Davenport only did IMHO.

Are you talking about 2003 here!?! Justine was playing the best of anyone that summer. She won the Acura Classic beating Clijsters in the final (Davenport had been easily beaten by Kim in the semis). She then won the Rogers A&T Cup, the biggest lead up event. Clijsters lost in the 2nd round of the Rogers Cup I believe, but won Los Angeles over Davenport in the final. Davenport didnt win a tournament all summer, in fact her only title all year was Tokyo in February, and retired in the New Haven final to Capriati with an injury midway through the 1st set. Lindsay was never considered a major factor at the 2003 U.S Open even with the Williams out, with Henin, Clijsters, and Capriati the main contenders, and Henin and Clijsters the favorites.

justineheninfan
Oct 1st, 2010, 09:44 PM
It depends...the U.S. Open is a very quick hard court surface. Justine 2007 definitely wins the USO any day of the week because that bitch was scary BUT...Justine 2003 nearly lost to Dementieva in Toronto, and wasn't even CHALLENGED by anyone. She nearly lost to Jen (really should have had Jennifer had any kind of brain), lost to CHANDA RUBIN in Miami....2003 Justine was not the good hard court player that 2004-tine or 2007-tine was. Serena would have obliterated her on arguably her best surface. And by the way, if you're going to use the B.S. excuse that grass isn't a good surface for Justine...then I can use the B.S. excuse that clay isn't a good surface for Serena....so there you go.

And to Matt01...if you can make the same argument against Serena's entire Serena Slam, then I have the right to put asteriks next to Justine's 03 USO and 04 Australian Open.

Justine was a totally different player before the 2003 Clay Court season to after. April is around then the real Justine began. Yes the winter Justine was still not that great I agree, getting spanked by Venus, Clijsters, Rubin, and nearly losing to an old washed up Seles. However if Justine had played Rubin that summer she would have beaten her easily, and Clijsters has never beaten Justine as easily as she was still regularly doing in early 2003 (well except for one match in summer 2005). It was only in that years clay court season that she began to get the confidence she needed to be the champion she would be in coming years, and after winning the French Open she was mentally a totally different player. So in short the winter Justine and the summer Justine are two seperate players really.

Of course that doesnt mean Serena wouldnt have still possibly beaten her. This is Serena after all. However I am pretty sure it would have been alot closer than then their match on grass.

And I never disputed clay was Serena's worst surface so I dont know what you are getting at. I wouldnt call that a BS statement if you had made it, it would simply be stating the truth, clay is obviously Serena's worst surface as grass is Justine's. I also never said it wouldnt have been a bigger task for Justine to beat Serena at the U.S Open then it had been to beat her at the French. However her chances would also be much better on hard courts than grass, since Justine is a much better player on hard courts than grass. There is a reason she has never won Wimbledon and it isnt just the Williams as in her prime she has lost to Daniilidou and Bartoli at Wimbledon, and couldnt even beat Mauresmo in a Wimbledon final in a year the Williams were AWOL.

And Capriati was no pushover in those years. Serena even at her peak had a hard time beating her, always going to 3 sets in 2002 and 2003 when they played, and losing to her often in 2001 and 2004. And the 2003 U.S Open semis was probably the match of her life along with the 1991 U.S Open semis, and it still wasnt enough to be a cramping Justine who wasnt even playing her best that day. Dementieva also is no pushover on hard courts. She has beaten Serena many times in non slams events (and even nearly did at Wimbledon). I dont see how it is a sign of weakness to go to 3 sets with her in a warmup event. :lol:

new-york
Oct 1st, 2010, 09:54 PM
Justine.*

I hate to be a woulder-coulder-shoulder but the 2003 US Open is the only slam i've followed where you knew "the winner(s) wasn't in the draw".

Justine, though.

Matt01
Oct 1st, 2010, 10:31 PM
Lol, Justine really overcomplicated the whole thing, having rewatched some highlights.

And Matt01, I originally said that she may or may not have won the USO....she's proven herself in 2007 to be a GREAT hard court player, but in 2003...idk if she was ready for it yet. She didn't really look stellar in the hard court season. Really, Kim and Davenport only did IMHO.


SAN DIEGO

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R64 BYE
R32 H2H Daniilidou, Eleni (GRE) 21 W 6-1 6-1
R16 H2H (13) Dementieva, Elena (RUS) 16 W 4-6 6-4 6-1
Q H2H Petrova, Nadia (RUS) 24 W 6-0 6-2
S H2H Kuznetsova, Svetlana (RUS) 29 W 6-1 6-3
F H2H (2) Clijsters, Kim (BEL) 2 W 3-6 6-2 6-3


TORONTO

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R64 BYE
R32 H2H Bartoli, Marion (FRA) 48 W 6-3 6-3
R16 H2H (14) Petrova, Nadia (RUS) 22 W 6-3 7-5
Q H2H (12) Bovina, Elena (RUS) 21 W 6-2 6-4
S H2H (9) Dementieva, Elena (RUS) 15 W 6-3 6-7(5) 6-2
F H2H Krasnoroutskaya, Lina (RUS) 38 W 6-1 6-0


US OPEN

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R128 H2H Kapros, Aniko (HUN) 129 W 7-5 6-3
R64 H2H Talaja, Silvija (CRO) 70 W 6-1 6-2
R32 H2H Obata, Saori (JPN) 75 W 6-1 6-2
R16 H2H Safina, Dinara (RUS) 71 W 6-0 6-3
Q H2H (7) Myskina, Anastasia (RUS) 10 W 6-2 6-3
S H2H (6) Capriati, Jennifer (USA) 7 W 4-6 7-5 7-6(4)
F H2H (1) Clijsters, Kim (BEL) 1 W 7-5 6-1


Maybe it's just me but that looks quite stellar to me.

I still respect your opinion, though :p

Human Nature
Oct 1st, 2010, 10:43 PM
Justine.*

I hate to be a woulder-coulder-shoulder but the 2003 US Open is the only slam i've followed where you knew "the winner(s) wasn't in the draw".Justine, though.



OMG :lol:

DefyingGravity
Oct 2nd, 2010, 05:20 AM
SAN DIEGO

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R64 BYE
R32 H2H Daniilidou, Eleni (GRE) 21 W 6-1 6-1
R16 H2H (13) Dementieva, Elena (RUS) 16 W 4-6 6-4 6-1
Q H2H Petrova, Nadia (RUS) 24 W 6-0 6-2
S H2H Kuznetsova, Svetlana (RUS) 29 W 6-1 6-3
F H2H (2) Clijsters, Kim (BEL) 2 W 3-6 6-2 6-3


TORONTO

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R64 BYE
R32 H2H Bartoli, Marion (FRA) 48 W 6-3 6-3
R16 H2H (14) Petrova, Nadia (RUS) 22 W 6-3 7-5
Q H2H (12) Bovina, Elena (RUS) 21 W 6-2 6-4
S H2H (9) Dementieva, Elena (RUS) 15 W 6-3 6-7(5) 6-2
F H2H Krasnoroutskaya, Lina (RUS) 38 W 6-1 6-0


US OPEN

Rnd Opponent Rank W/L Score
R128 H2H Kapros, Aniko (HUN) 129 W 7-5 6-3
R64 H2H Talaja, Silvija (CRO) 70 W 6-1 6-2
R32 H2H Obata, Saori (JPN) 75 W 6-1 6-2
R16 H2H Safina, Dinara (RUS) 71 W 6-0 6-3
Q H2H (7) Myskina, Anastasia (RUS) 10 W 6-2 6-3
S H2H (6) Capriati, Jennifer (USA) 7 W 4-6 7-5 7-6(4)
F H2H (1) Clijsters, Kim (BEL) 1 W 7-5 6-1


Maybe it's just me but that looks quite stellar to me.

I still respect your opinion, though :p

Most of the other matches are probably just okay (good enough to get through) performances, but in some of the higher pressure situations she didn't look nearly as stellar. And she RACED out against Capriati and lost that opening set. Idk what the hell happened there, but that was a two set drubbing playing the way she did to get up early on Capriati.

Those two matches with Dementieva...I'm sorry but as well as Elena's ground game carried her in 2003, she should have been munching that second serve for breakfast. This isn't the same Lena that would go on to 2 finals in 2004. This Lena had just barely won her first title and really looked terrible in the middle part of the year in 2003 with the exception of that doubles match that Krasnoroutskaya and she played against the Williams sisters at Wimbledon.

And even against Kim in San Diego, Kim was playing terrible for Kim's usual standard. It was almost as if Justine wasn't ready for this and she kind of wandered into better form at the USO.

justineheninfan
Oct 2nd, 2010, 05:53 AM
San Diego was one of the best matches Kim played against Justine all year. Compared to the French and U.S Open finals she was playing like a god, LOL!

And Dementieva still had the same piece of turd serve in 2004 when she made 2 slam finals as she had in 2003.

It is silly to expect Henin to not even lose sets to compare to Serena. Serena had trouble with Capriati and always lost sets to her even at her very best, I dont think she had even 1 straight sets win over Jennifer in either 2002 or 2003. So Henin wasnt supposed to go to 3 sets with an on fire and very determined Capriati or else she is suddenly alot worse?

And winning every tournament you enter that summer is impressive. Yes it was in the absence of the Williams but I dont see how in anyway that could be interpreted as struggling or not looking impressive because she lost an occasional set. Even Serena in 2002 lost to Rubin and Venus in 2001 lost to Shaughnessy during the summer swing so going undefeated in the summer was a feat that even the Williams at their respective best didnt pull off the last 2 years, and it wasnt due to losing to a big gun either.