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View Full Version : Venus, Serena, and Henin's rank in history


selesisqueen
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:35 PM
Where do you believe Venus, Serena, and Justine rank in tennis history. Here is where I see them:

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Graf (thanks to the knife, in reality she isnt even close to this good)
4. Court
5. Seles
6. Serena
7. Connolly
8. Lenglen
9. Wills Moody
10. King
11. Gibson
12. Henin
13. Bueno
14. Goolagong
15. Venus

Sonf@
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:56 PM
1-Navratilova
2-Graf
3-Court
4-Evert
5-Wills Moody
6-Lenglen
7-Connolly
8-Serena
9-King
10-Seles
11-Henin
12-Bueno
13-Gibson
14-Goolagong
15-Venus

Kworb
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:06 PM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Serena
5. Seles
6. Wills Moody
7. Lenglen
8. Court
9. King
10. Connolly
11. Henin
12. Bueno
13. Goolagong
14. Gibson
15. Hart
16. Hingis
17. Mallory
18. Douglass
19. DuPont
20. Venus

DefyingGravity
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:08 PM
1-Navratilova
2-Graf
3-Court
4-Evert
5-Wills Moody
6-Lenglen
7-Connolly
8-Serena
9-King
10-Seles
11-Henin
12-Bueno
13-Gibson
14-Goolagong
15-Venus

This.

le bon vivant
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:23 PM
No way in this world Seles > Serena.

Inger67
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:23 PM
Omg, we haven't even gotten to the bottom of who is the second best of this generation? :lol:

pablin777
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:29 PM
1-Navratilova
2-Graf
3-Court
4-Evert
5-Wills Moody
6-Lenglen
7-Connolly
8-Serena
9-King
10-Seles
11-Venus
12-Henin
13-Bueno
14-Gibson
15-Goolagong
15-

selesisqueen
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:31 PM
No way in this world Seles > Serena.

I have a great deal of respect for Serena but keep in mind Seles already had won 8 slams at the tender age of 19 before her career was basically ended by an attempted murder.

Matt01
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Open Era:

1. Navratilova/Evert
2. Evert/Navratilova
3. Graf
4. Court
5. S. Williams
6. Seles
7. King
8. Henin
9. V. Williams
10. Hingis
11. Goolagong
12. Mandlikova
13. Davenport
14. Sanchez-Vicario

Inger67
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:50 PM
I have a great deal of respect for Serena but keep in mind Seles already had won 8 slams at the tender age of 19 before her career was basically ended by an attempted murder.

I know and that's a tragedy but you can't speculate someone's career on what COULD HAVE BEEN. The fact is, that her career was cut short, but Serena has still accomplished more in hers than Monica did.

GAGAlady
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:58 PM
I know and that's a tragedy but you can't speculate someone's career on what COULD HAVE BEEN. The fact is, that her career was cut short, but Serena has still accomplished more in hers than Monica did.

Thats a fair statement.

Also, Seles came back and never dominated again...that could be a ding against her in terms of champion mentality....yopu have to be able to win at any and in any adversity...obviously being stabbed is not exactly something anybody would wish apon there worst enemy ...:sad:

JJ Expres
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:16 PM
Thats a fair statement.

Also, Seles came back and never dominated again...that could be a ding against her in terms of champion mentality....yopu have to be able to win at any and in any adversity...obviously being stabbed is not exactly something anybody would wish apon there worst enemy ...:sad:

some1 stab her FFS!ofc she wont be same again!you just can't imagine.dog bite me when i was kid and now I feel anxious with dogs around me.imagine that feeling when someone try to kill you?i believe she was scared to be in contact with humans...

@topic i agree with somfo...

Kairi
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:22 PM
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.Henin(maybe):lol:

Sonf@
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:35 PM
I have a great deal of respect for Serena but keep in mind Seles already had won 8 slams at the tender age of 19 before her career was basically ended by an attempted murder.

So, having your sentence in mind and assuming your arguments were valid (such a shame they are quite biased and subjective), why would you rank Seles ahead of Connolly?

selesisqueen
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:40 PM
So, having your sentence in mind and assuming your arguments were valid (such a shame they are quite biased and subjective), why would you rank Seles ahead of Connolly?

Connolly didnt have the kind of competition Seles did. Seles faced Graf and Navratilova. Connolly faced some great players but nowhere near that level.

Le Chat
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:52 PM
Here we go again

Lucemferre
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:06 PM
Open Era:

1. Navratilova/Evert
2. Evert/Navratilova
3. Graf
4. Court
5. S. Williams
6. Seles
7. King
8. Henin
9. V. Williams
10. Hingis
11. Goolagong
12. Mandlikova
13. Davenport
14. Sanchez-Vicario

:help:

Matt01
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:19 PM
:help:


Post your list :)

Sonf@
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:36 PM
Connolly didnt have the kind of competition Seles did. Seles faced Graf and Navratilova. Connolly faced some great players but nowhere near that level.


Really? You think so? You weren't there to see the level of play, anyway.

Based again on your arguments, one could say that Navratilova was past her prime (she actually was past her prime) and that Graf was on a terrible slump (by her standards and that's actually true, too). But that discussion doesn't belong here but in the BFTP subforum and I think you were banned there for some reason... :angel:

LightWarrior
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:06 AM
Open Era:

1. Navratilova/Evert
2. Evert/Navratilova
3. Graf
4. Court
5. S. Williams


lol that seems fair, except that I would bump Serena. I mean Margaret Court winning most of her slams in her native Australia without the top players doesn't mean anything.

Helen Lawson
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:22 AM
Serena is near the bottom of the list of all-time greats. Venus and Henin are middle-top of the second tier gals along with Monica.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:27 AM
Post your list :)
Despite the obvious areas on which I disagree with you list (Henin over Venus, Court over Serena, Nav/Evert over Steffi) how do you justify Hingis over Goolagong?

Matt01
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:34 AM
Despite the obvious areas on which I disagree with you list (Henin over Venus, Court over Serena, Nav/Evert over Steffi) how do you justify Hingis over Goolagong?


I wasn't sure on that one, but I think that Goolagong never really dominated women's tennis like Hingis did in 1997 and won most of her Slam titles in Australia with rather weak fields. And of course based on their weeks as #1.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Volcana
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:38 AM
I'm going with a top 17, taking Gibson, Connolly and Seles out of the discussion, because their career accomplishments are so obviously not an indicator of their ability. They would all three likely be between #5 and #15. But they'd all be top twenty, so I'm reserving spots for them.
And for those to object to relying heavily on slam results, when comparing pre-Open era to Open era players, that's the best guide.
1-Navratilova
2-Graf
3-Court
4-Evert (90% wining percentage when everybody else is in the low 80's)
5-Wills Moody
6-BJK (Who would never rank herself ahead of Serena)
7-Serena
8-Lenglen
9-Osbourne Dupont
10-Brough
11-Doris
12-Molla Mallory
13-Venus
14-Maria Bueno
15-Evonne Goolagong
16-Justine Henin
17-Martina Hingis

I'm forgetting somebody

Matt01
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:39 AM
lol that seems fair, except that I would bump Serena. I mean Margaret Court winning most of her slams in her native Australia without the top players doesn't mean anything.


Not in the Open Era. She won 7 of her 11 Slams outside of Australia. And she won 6 Slams in a row in the Open Era, I rated that highly ;)

pierce85
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:41 AM
1-Navratilova
2-Graf
3-Court
4-Evert
5-Wills Moody
6-Lenglen
7-Connolly
8-Serena
9-King
10-Seles
11-Henin
12-Bueno
13-Gibson
14-Goolagong
15-Venus

this,although navratilova-graf is debatable for the number 1 spot

LightWarrior
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:50 AM
Not in the Open Era. She won 7 of her 11 Slams outside of Australia. And she won 6 Slams in a row in the Open Era, I rated that highly ;)

Who cares if it was in the Open era. Even after 1968 (open ear) most top players never bothered to go to Australia until 1981.

Matt01
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:56 AM
Who cares if it was in the Open era. Even after 1968 (open ear) most top players never bothered to go to Australia until 1981.


Tell me something I don't know. Even outside of Australia, Court won as many Slam titles as Serena overall.

Pops Maellard
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:07 AM
I have a great deal of respect for Serena but keep in mind Seles already had won 8 slams at the tender age of 19 before her career was basically ended by an attempted murder.

Seles' career was still up to Seles no matter what happened.

LightWarrior
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:09 AM
Tell me something I don't know. Even outside of Australia, Court won as many Slam titles as Serena overall.

Well noboday carres about Court anyway. It's always about Nav/Evert/Graf as who is the greatest ever. Graf won all those slams because Seles got stabbed as we all know. I like the fact that you put Evert and Nav on a par because let's face it, those 2 met 80 times, 60 times in finals. That was the greatest rivalry ever. Evert would have probably ended up with 30 slams if it wasn't for Nav, and vice versa. And I find it so ironic that they both end up with 18 slams apiece.

Sonf@
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:12 AM
this,although navratilova-graf is debatable for the number 1 spot

I know, and, in fact, I'm always changing my mind :lol:

I went with Navratilova because of Chris Evert. I mean, we are talking about two players that played at the same time throughout most of their peak careers and won a total of 36 Grand Slams combined. Imagine if one of them hadn't played tennis.

Anyway, the "best player ever" discussion could go for much longer, since we have like six players that could go for it.

In terms of quantity, Navratilova won more titles than anyone else, but Evert's percentage might have something to say there. It's hard to find out about Court's total, but she won around 92 tournament in the open era only. That leaves nearly ten years of uncredited titles. Maybe someone in the BFTP forum could help here. Graf won less titles but she also played for less years and had lighter schedules.

In terms of dominance, Lenglen and Moody could go for years without losing a set. Connolly won nearly every match she played from 1952's Us Open until she had the horse incident. To a lesser degree, Seles won eight of nine Slams contested at some point.

I just wouldn't rank anybody when talking about quality. The game materials are different now and some players adjusted better or worse than others. Some old players that are still alive tend to say that Connolly would be the best even today (they were obviously extrapolating). Navratilova and Evert say that Graf is the best. King wouldn't rank herself above Serena but let's not forget they are public figures and probably didn't want to sound too arrogant :lol:

To finish up, let's not forget that Serena's career is not over yet. I don't think she can get into the 20 category, but she could well end up around the 18 mark if she's lucky with injuries and has the will to go for it.

justineheninfan
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:16 AM
1. Graf
2. Evert/Court
4. Navratilova
5. Lenglen
6. Serena Williams
7. Connolly
8. Wills Moody
9. King
10. Henin
11. Venus
12. Seles
13. Hingis
14. Gibson
15. Bueno/Goolagong

justineheninfan
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:19 AM
I know, and, in fact, I'm always changing my mind :lol:

I went with Navratilova because of Chris Evert. I mean, we are talking about two players that played at the same time throughout most of their peak careers and won a total of 36 Grand Slams combined. Imagine if one of them hadn't played tennis.


Their primes werent really together. Chris's prime was from 1974-1981 and Martina's from 1982-1987. Chris suffered much more because of Martina than vice versa as Chris was denied many titles by a peak Martina and a few in the years prior to that. Martina actually only lost 3 or 4 slams because of Chris as during almost all of Chris's dominance she wasnt even the 2nd best player and during most of her own Chris could hardly ever beat her. And since the 1982-1986 field Martina dominated would have been the biggest joke ever without Chris she comes out looking much better. Martina is in fact very lucky that Chris ever existed in the first place.

Sonf@
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:24 AM
Their primes werent really together. Chris's prime was from 1974-1981 and Martina's from 1982-1987. Chris suffered much more because of Martina than vice versa as Chris was denied many titles by a peak Martina and a few in the years prior to that. Martina actually only lost 3 or 4 slams because of Chris as during almost all of Chris's dominance she wasnt even the 2nd best player and during most of her own Chris could hardly ever beat her. And since the 1982-1986 field Martina dominated would have been the biggest joke ever without Chris she comes out looking much better. Martina is in fact very lucky that Chris ever existed in the first place.

Well, the fact is that their non prime years were better than most of everybody else's prime years ;)

justineheninfan
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:27 AM
Well, the fact is that their non prime years were better than most of everybody else's prime years ;)

That is much more true of Evert than Navratilova. Navratilova in her non prime years found herself regularly looking up at people like Goolagong and Austin, and often some others too. Evert was one of the 2 best players in the World for about 13 years though. Which is why I rated Evert over Martina.

Sonf@
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:41 AM
That is much more true of Evert than Navratilova. Navratilova in her non prime years found herself regularly looking up at people like Goolagong and Austin, and often some others too. Evert was one of the 2 best players in the World for about 13 years though. Which is why I rated Evert over Martina.

That could be one of the cases I was talking about in my previous post (the looooong one). Also is paradoxical that Court won most of her Grand Slams at the AO with weaker fields and that Evert skipped that event for a long time during her prime years. She also skipped Roland Garros due to WTT and I'm pretty sure she would've won many of those but she didn't show up, so pity for her.

justineheninfan
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:44 AM
I definitely think Evert would be the untouchable GOAT today, atleast statistically, had the slams been all fully valued the way they are today. She probably would have about 25 slams. And Court's slam tally is definitely inflated, but she is still a great player.

Stern
Sep 29th, 2010, 04:37 AM
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Evert
4. Court
5. Serena
6. King
7. Seles
8. Venus
9. Goolagong
10.Henin
11.Hingis
12.Mandikova
13.Sanchez Vicario
14.Davenport
15.Connolly

The Witch-king
Sep 29th, 2010, 05:16 AM
Serena
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this. :tape: