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View Full Version : Could Steffi Graf Beat Top-5 Players Now?


CJ07
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:37 PM
I didn't say could she *be* in the Top 5, but could she - with say 6-9 months of training - beat the Top 5?

I would say yes to all 5, depending on surface. Even as a 40 year old.

People need to seriously re-evaluate when they said the 90s were weak. If Martina were 10-15 year younger, I would say the same thing.

Lapaco
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:37 PM
OF course and all of them.

Human Nature
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:40 PM
She could have some interesting wins here and there but not on aregular basis

Serena Williams is not weaker than her

Shvedbarilescu
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:41 PM
I honestly don't think she could. I said why in another thread. She could probably make the top 100 but I doubt she would go much further. Just because Date-Krumm has made the top 50 at almost 40 years old doesn't mean anyone else can. Yes Steffi in her mid 20s >>> Kimiko in her mid 20s. But that does not mean Steffi at 40 >>> Kimiko at 40. It simply does not work that way.

Andrew Laeddis
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:42 PM
No

jefrilibra
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:43 PM
You guys really think she could beat Serena right now?:lol:

She prolly could beat Venus on clay and she def could beat Woz, Vera and JJ on all surfaces but not consistently. That much I give you.

Calypso
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:44 PM
Yes, she could. But her body wouldn't allow her play a full season, with all the injuries she's suffered.

Olórin
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:45 PM
I didn't say could she *be* in the Top 5, but could she - with say 6-9 months of training - beat the Top 5?

2. I would say yes to all 5, depending on surface. Even as a 40 year old.

1. People need to seriously re-evaluate when they said the 90s were weak. If Martina were 10-15 year younger, I would say the same thing.

1) When they said that, they weren't talking about Steffi.

2) Based on what? Her recent form? We have no idea how the Steffi Graf game would even come together as a 40 year old in 2010. The game is, generally speaking, as far removed from how it was when she won the French Open in 1999, as Hingis' Australian Open winning game of 1999 was from her 2006 incarnation.

That said, you don't bet against Steffi Graf and when you look at who the top 5 routinely lose to...you'd be stupid to.

Lapaco
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:46 PM
You guys really think she could beat Serena right now?:lol:

She prolly could beat Venus on clay and she def could beat Woz, Vera and JJ on all surfaces but not consistently. That much I give you.

The likes of Elena Dementieva, Jelena Jankovic, Nadia Petrova, Sam Stosur did it this year. Why wouldn't Graf be able to do it?

justineheninfan
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:50 PM
The likes of Elena Dementieva, Jelena Jankovic, Nadia Petrova, Sam Stosur did it this year. Why wouldn't Graf be able to do it?

Since Serena's pride would pump her up to give it her all against a 40 year old Graf if they played, even in some minor tournament. She would not want a loss to a 40 year old Graf on her resume anywhere. When she plays those people you mentioned in the non slam events she often isnt that into it. OK she lost to Stosur on clay at the French, but Stosur is probably better on clay than a 40 year old Graf would be.

silyaunWILLIAMS
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:53 PM
The people who think she could are deluded.

The Witch-king
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:53 PM
If they were injured, sure. Otherwise i doubt it.

Human Nature
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:57 PM
The likes of Elena Dementieva, Jelena Jankovic, Nadia Petrova, Sam Stosur did it this year. Why wouldn't Graf be able to do it?



She couldnt even beat a teenage serena in straights when she met her

justineheninfan
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:57 PM
Graf was only a top 5 player when she left the tour in 1999 at 30 really. Hingis and Davenport were overall better, and Venus and Serena were about on par with her at that point. Granted I know that the field was much stronger than today, but I dont know how she would do nearly as well at 41 as she did at 30 even against a much weaker field. And I am a big Graf fan.

The field today does suck royally, maybe the worst ever, but a 41 year old Steffi would still be nowhere near the top 5. As others have said she might not even better than Date today as players age differently. Date killed her in an exhibition match 2 years ago, though Date was practicing getting ready for her comeback already unlike Steffi.

Sammo
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Graf of the 90's yes, Graf now... :spit: She got thrashed in 2008 by Kimiko Date and she wasn't even as half fit as she is now

Lapaco
Sep 27th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Since Serena's pride would pump her up to give it her all against a 40 year old Graf if they played, even in some minor tournament. She would not want a loss to a 40 year old Graf on her resume anywhere. When she plays those people you mentioned in the non slam events she often isnt that into it. OK she lost to Stosur on clay at the French, but Stosur is probably better on clay than a 40 year old Graf would be.

Nonsense. Stosur better than Graf? :lol:

Human Nature
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Monica Seles couldnt even manage to win a GS with serena's generation

And now Kimiko Date beat Sharapova suddenly her generation is better lol

The Witch-king
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Nonsense. Stosur better than Graf? :lol:


she's an active 26 year old pro tennis player in her prime. Of course she's better than a 40+ retiree that hasn't played professionally in a decade.

Human Nature
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:04 PM
Nonsense. Stosur better than Graf? :lol:

A 40 year old Graf yes !

Patrick345
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Graf was only a top 5 player when she left the tour in 1999 at 30 really. Hingis and Davenport were overall better, and Venus and Serena were about on par with her at that point. Granted I know that the field was much stronger than today, but I dont know how she would do nearly as well at 41 as she did at 30 even against a much weaker field. And I am a big Graf fan.

The field today does suck royally, maybe the worst ever, but a 41 year old Steffi would still be nowhere near the top 5. As others have said she might not even better than Date today as players age differently. Date killed her in an exhibition match 2 years ago, though Date was practicing getting ready for her comeback already unlike Steffi.

I think around 20-30 would absolutely be reasonable goal for a HEALTHY 41 year old Graf, BUT the reason she retired was her body was breaking down.

justineheninfan
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:11 PM
Monica Seles couldnt even manage to win a GS with serena's generation

LOL you talk as if Seles is better than Graf. Graf >>> Seles

Direwolf
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:12 PM
She could easily be number 1 ...!

Sammo
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Nonsense. Stosur better than Graf? :lol:

I don't think Steffi would get more than two games from her lol

mariavikafan
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Pushniacki is in the top 5.:help:

Human Nature
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:18 PM
LOL you talk as if Seles is better than Graf. Graf >>> Seles


Seles was in the top 5 during Graf generation

And yes pre-stabbed Seles is better than Graf

Mightymirza
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:22 PM
She could probably beat Woz on grass for instance

tennislover
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:42 PM
1) in her peak unfortunately she could :banghead:

2) being 40 years old, absolutely she couldn't

Lapaco
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:46 PM
A 40 year old Graf yes !

A 30 year old Schiavone beat Stosur on clay. Even a 30 year old Venus beat Stosur on clay.
Stosur is a hack compared to Graf.

Lucemferre
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:52 PM
No she can't.

morbidangle
Sep 27th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Easily! :P

CanIGetAWhat
Sep 27th, 2010, 09:03 PM
Yes. The current top five is weaker than when Steffi retired.

sweetpeas
Sep 27th, 2010, 09:13 PM
Hell No!

justineheninfan
Sep 27th, 2010, 09:35 PM
Seles was in the top 5 during Graf generation

And yes pre-stabbed Seles is better than Graf

Peak Graf of 87-89 or 95-96 >>>> Peak Seles of 91-92
Average Graf >>>> Average Seles
Slumping or Out of Prime Graf of 90-92 or 98-99 >>> Slumping or out of Prime Seles

Conclusion: Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>> Seles


We already know for a fact a 29 and 30 year old Graf was a much bigger threat to Serena's generation than Seles ever was. Graf in her final year on tour alone managed to reach to win and reach the final of her last 2 slams, and score 3 wins over Lindsay, 2 wins over Venus, and 2 wins over Hingis.

Kipling
Sep 27th, 2010, 09:38 PM
Hmmm.

She'd have to do a lot of training. At that Hit for Haiti thing at IW earlier this year she looked like hadn't picked up the racquet much since settling down.

I'd give Martina a better chance, quite honestly.

homogenius
Sep 27th, 2010, 11:59 PM
no

Mr.Sharapova
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:11 AM
No!

Michael!
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:15 AM
Well, Steff´s body is too weak now, too many inruries etc., and she is already 41yo, but a fit Steffi, if we just pretend she would come back fit, would still be able to beat top 5 players, the level right now is not really great and it is obvious that the best player of last century would be able to beat them..

Lord Choc Ice
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:21 AM
I think she could score a couple of wins, probably over Veerror, but only if her opponents were playing really badly.

Also Kim lost to that player outside the top-200 this year and I doubt that player would be better than Steffi.

shoparound
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:26 AM
Didn't Graf hang with GOAT Kim pretty close in the exhibition last year?

jimmy_the_greek
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:39 AM
No.

MH0861
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:40 AM
She could beat Caro and Vera, but I seriously doubt the WS or Kim.

Kəv.
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:42 AM
No Way!

kiwifan
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:42 AM
I didn't say could she *be* in the Top 5, but could she - with say 6-9 months of training - beat the Top 5?

I would say yes to all 5, depending on surface. Even as a 40 year old.

People need to seriously re-evaluate when they said the 90s were weak. If Martina were 10-15 year younger, I would say the same thing.

I think 90s Graf could lose to almost anyone in the Top 50 today that wouldn't be true in the 90s and that is why we don't need to re-evaluate how weak the 90s were. :p

thrust
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:44 AM
The people who think she could are deluded.

I AGREE. If she were 20-30 today, of course she could.

kiwifan
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:46 AM
Pushniacki is in the top 5.:help:

Trust me, when you get older that last person you want to play is a pusher...

...intellectually boring and hard work for an old body to endure. :(

Bruno71
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:06 AM
Yes. The current top five is weaker than when Steffi retired.

I think Steffi would be weaker than when she retired, too. Just a hunch.

spencercarlos
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:26 AM
Steffi would still be nowhere near the top 5. As others have said she might not even better than Date today as players age differently.
It´s more probable to think otherwise, If Graf was WAY better than Date back then, if she trains and her body holds up, the result would mean that she would be a better force than Date, and that´s the question in this pool, a fit Graf.

Date killed her in an exhibition match 2 years ago, though Date was practicing getting ready for her comeback already unlike Steffi.
You maybe overlook the fact that Graf was injured during that whole event she actually played in one leg and Kimiko was about to take the tour again.

Its not difficult to see, i saw Date against Kuznetsova at the Usopen, and she is not even half the player she once was, and even then she took Svetlana to three sets, just like she has done to many top players in the past year. These players of today are just simply ridiculously bad in general.

spencercarlos
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:29 AM
Seles was in the top 5 during Graf generation

And yes pre-stabbed Seles is better than Graf
Seles did not exactly matched or surpassed Graf´s achievements.

This would be like saying that a grand slam winning Henin (eg post 2003) is better than Serena :retard:

spencercarlos
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:34 AM
She could beat Caro and Vera, but I seriously doubt the WS or Kim.
My feelings.

And btw played Kim last year. Lost 6-4, exhibition but she made a good amount of winners and some nice rallies. Just imagine what a fully commited Graf would do.. IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r71Kr2XLL4I&feature=related
From 3:10

Justin
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:43 AM
Didn't Graf hang with GOAT Kim pretty close in the exhibition last year?


Um, no. Kim even said that the matches were staged by the powers that be. Kim was even told what the final score would be beforehand.

Anyone who voted "yes" is delusional, a rabid Graf fan, or both.

thrust
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:51 AM
Um, no. Kim even said that the matches were staged by the powers that be. Kim was even told what the final score would be beforehand.

Anyone who voted "yes" is delusional, a rabid Graf fan, or both.

I do hope Kim never said that, true or not.

Justin
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:53 AM
I do hope Kim never said that, true or not.


It was reported by Ted Robinson when he commentated on the Kim/Venus exo at the Garden in March.

danieln1
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:17 AM
She won a set against Kimberly in Wimbledon Center court last year.... if she trained seriously, she would definetly beat a Jankovic or a Wozniacki, and even Zvonareva, espécially on grass.... Graf would be too steady for them, but it´s just presumptions, since Graf will never return

SELVEN
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM
Graf, come back plz.

AcesHigh
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:37 AM
Fit and healthy, yea, definitely.

A fit and healthy Davenport would be in the top 5 right now IMO.

Fit and healthy is a big IF though.

LeonHart
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:49 AM
Yes she could (if she gets fit obviously). She almost beat a fearless Serena in 1999 - who later on went to win the US Open. Serena in 1999 > any of the top 5 right now.

Justin
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:31 AM
Yes she could (if she gets fit obviously). She almost beat a fearless Serena in 1999 - who later on went to win the US Open. Serena in 1999 > any of the top 5 right now.


The Graf who played Serena in '99 no longer exists. She is now 11 years older and has given birth to two children.

Justin
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:33 AM
She won a set against Kimberly in Wimbledon Center court last year....


No she didn't. :confused:

Roookie
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:56 AM
Absolutely

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 04:22 AM
Well,she has wins over current world number 1,world number 3 and world number 5 with Wozniacki and Zvonareva being the others...if she could have proper preparations I believe she could beat them too...

goat
Sep 28th, 2010, 04:27 AM
Venus on clay?

LeonHart
Sep 28th, 2010, 04:30 AM
The Graf who played Serena in '99 no longer exists. She is now 11 years older and has given birth to two children.

Point is, if Kimiko can do it, then she surely can as well. In the WTA of today, ANYTHING can happen........NOTHING is impossible. NOTHING. Too many headcases on the tour.

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 04:35 AM
It´s more probable to think otherwise, If Graf was WAY better than Date back then, if she trains and her body holds up, the result would mean that she would be a better force than Date, and that´s the question in this pool, a fit Graf.

I guess we will never know. Yeah in theory a 41 year old Graf fully trained and healthy should be better than a 40 year old Date. Things dont always play out that way though is what I am saying though. And another person made a good point, Date plays a very unusual game, you cant really think of another player who plays remotedly like her as far as technique, etc...When you are diminished in your physical abilities as both Date and Graf are with age, that might be what helps Date do better in the end than Graf at that age, playing a game that is harder to get used to. It is all speculation though, and yeah in theory a 40ish old Graf should be a much bigger force than a 40ish Date. Enough to be top 5 today at that age though?

On another note while I would never suggest prime Graf was up with prime Graf, I also think Date retired when she was really hitting her peak and could have achieved more, probably won a slam had she continued. She was actually playing Graf virtually equal their last 2 matches of 1996. That Wimbledon semifinal she smoked Graf in the 2nd set and might have won if the match wasnt stopped for light. Graf was looking very frusterated as Date was putting her on her heels from the baseline and returning everything she threw at her. And of course that Fed Cup match which Date won after Graf had a match point. Date was a 2nd tier top player of the Graf era of course but she was no pushover at her best. She had atleast one win over every top player of her era including Graf and Seles, despite a relatively short career. She owned Conchita Martinez, and I think her head to heads with Novotna, Sabatini, and some other more achieved players during her time as a top player were pretty even.


You maybe overlook the fact that Graf was injured during that whole event she actually played in one leg and Kimiko was about to take the tour again.

True and Date was obviously practicing a heck of alot more at the time.

Its not difficult to see, i saw Date against Kuznetsova at the Usopen, and she is not even half the player she once was, and even then she took Svetlana to three sets, just like she has done to many top players in the past year. These players of today are just simply ridiculously bad in general.

True I dont doubt the womens tour today sucks bigtime. Date at her peak in 1996 could have probably reached #1 (due to frequent inactivity of Serena). After all Jankovic and Safina did and I have no doubt a prime Date is better than them, especialy when a slumping Safina cant even beat a 39 year old Date. And I am sorry but even the worst of slumps is not a bigger disadvantage than being 39, especialy being retired for 13 years. I think her own career high was #6 back then and she flucuated from 6th to 15th in the rankings during her prime year of 94-96 and was on average a regular round of 16 loser in slams who maxed out at 3 slam semifinal losses. I am sure if she were in her prime now she would do way better than this. A prime Graf I cant even imagine how much she would clean up. Everyone at their current level which is Henin, Venus, and Sharapova all nowhere near their best, she would probably destroy everyone in every match except for a top form Serena on grass or hard courts sometimes.

delicatecutter
Sep 28th, 2010, 04:39 AM
Steffi would dominate but she would never come back, clearly. LOL I think she was just waiting to win one last Major and then retire. That's what happened. If only she could have won Wimbledon too. :sobbing:

spencercarlos
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:13 AM
She was actually playing Graf virtually equal their last 2 matches of 1996. That Wimbledon semifinal she smoked Graf in the 2nd set and might have won if the match wasnt stopped for light. Graf was looking very frusterated as Date was putting her on her heels from the baseline and returning everything she threw at her.

If anything Graf would have been very bothered to have choked a 5-0 lead in the first set of the Fed Cup match, along with set points, also blew match points in the third set to lose 8-6 go figure.

In the Wimbledon semis Graf led 6-2 2-0, yet with the combination of Date´s amazing tennis, but Graf also let her in with some errors and double faults even to give breaks away too, and you keep asking why Graf was frustrated :rolleyes:.
And if you SAW the match she did not SMOKE Graf in the second set, she won 6 games in a row, which might actually tell just one side of the story, but most games involved deuces and great rallies with great shotmaking from both as well. I can remmember the 2-2 game lasted about 15-20 minutes alone with 11 or 12 deuces, there goes the smoking.

In the third Graf held her nerve the next day and won 6-3 with just one break, but straightforward and convincingly.


Date retired when she was really hitting her peak and could have achieved more, probably won a slam had she continued.
I guess we will never know. Hingis was the one winning slams in 97 and she actually creamed Date 6-1 6-2 at the YEC QF´s.

As much as Date was peaking in 96, she played a slam with the pressure of being a big favorite, after her match with Graf at Wimbledon and her San Diego trouncing of both Arantxa and Conchita, but she did not do that well. But don´t delude yourself, just before that San Diego she lost to Habsusova in Manhattan beach, and followed her San Diego win with a first round loss to Kimberly Po at the Usopen in straight sets, yeah she was bound to win a slam :rolleyes:

And so much for her win against Seles it was a 5-4 retirement at the YEC 1996 :rolleyes:.
So kind up each of her lone wins against Graf and Seles are, although legit, somewhat unconvincing...

So if players like Mary Joe, Sukova, Zvereva are 2nd row, afterall they reached slam finals, i would even put Date a little bit back along the lines with a Manuela Maleeva, Anke Huber, etc or something.

But i agree, Date´s 96 level in today´s game would be probably number one or at least closer to a slam than she was back then IMO.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:24 AM
So if players like Mary Joe, Sukova, Zvereva are 2nd row, afterall they reached slam finals, i would even put Date a little bit back along the lines with a Manuela Maleeva, Anke Huber, etc or something.

Well,Anke Huber after all reached a GS final and lost to Seles,reached a YEC final and lost to Graf in 5 sets,reached a career high of 4 and won 12 tournaments(4 more than Date)...

So,Anke Huber > Kimiko Date

Also...Manuela Maleeva was number 3 in the world,won 19 tournaments(11 more than Date),has Olympic bronze in singles and leads H2H against Date...

So,Manuela Maleeva > Kimiko Date


I really love Kimiko but one needs to be realistic!

mondavjen
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:28 AM
I think that she could beat all of them, really. She could beat Serena on clay, Woz everywhere, Venus everywhere, Vera everywhere and Kim on grass. Quite sad and pathetic actually.

Serenita
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:52 AM
Pova wouldn't have a chance against Steffi. Steffi would expose her movement, and demolish her.

Roookie
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:59 AM
LOL at the recent threads. Just proves that the tour is a complete disaster.

spencercarlos
Sep 28th, 2010, 06:01 AM
Well,Anke Huber after all reached a GS final and lost to Seles,reached a YEC final and lost to Graf in 5 sets,reached a career high of 4 and won 12 tournaments(4 more than Date)...

So,Anke Huber > Kimiko Date

Also...Manuela Maleeva was number 3 in the world,won 19 tournaments(11 more than Date),has Olympic bronze in singles and leads H2H against Date...

So,Manuela Maleeva > Kimiko Date


I really love Kimiko but one needs to be realistic!
Well there you go, nice points :), agreed completly

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 06:13 AM
I have no idea how Manuela Maleeva ever reached #3 in the World. I cant think of any point in time she was really that high up in the womens game in reality as far as results, performance, or ability. I guess it isnt only today the WTA rankings were at times a mystery of sorts.

I personally dont consider Huber better than Date. Date has atleast beaten Graf and Seles (ok the Seles win was via retirement but she had match point the previous time they played too). Huber has never even taken a set from Seles, and has never beaten Graf- killed in every match too except that great 1995 YEC final. Yeah Huber made a slam final but to say she had a dream draw would be an understatement. Still good for her, she took advantage. Date has made a slam semifinal on every major surface, and lost to Graf, Sanchez Vicario (on clay), and Graf. Huber never would have a final had those been her semifinal opponents either. The one thing they have in common is they both own Conchita Martinez. It is actually amazing how easily beatable by other top players Martinez was for something so successful, even players much less successful than herself.

Anyway those are moot to the main topic.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:08 AM
Of course she could be a top five player.

But she would never dominate again.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:17 AM
I have no idea how Manuela Maleeva ever reached #3 in the World.

Manuela Maleeva even retired with winning a tournament while she was number 9 in the world!
Winning 19 tournaments and being number 3 in the world means something...

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:24 AM
I personally dont consider Huber better than Date.

Well,her accomplishments say otherwise!

top 5 > top 10

GS final > GS semi-final

YEC final > YEC semi-final

12 tournaments won > 8 tournaments won

Huber prize money > Date prize money 1/2 less than Huber

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:34 AM
Huber's career high was #5 I believe. Date's was #6. Virtually the same. And like I said her Grand Slam final doesnt impress me much as her draw was a joke. Everytime Date reached a semifinal she faced Graf or Sanchez on clay. Huber would have never made a slam final with those as her semifinal opponents, and that isnt even a maybe but a for sure. And that she won only 4 more tournaments doesnt impress me either when she played alot longer obviously.

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:35 AM
Manuela Maleeva even retired with winning a tournament while she was number 9 in the world!
Winning 19 tournaments and being number 3 in the world means something...

I didnt dispute that she was probably the better of those you mentioned, but I still dont understand how she was ever ranked #3 in the World. She never at any period had results, performances, or practically speaking a place in the womens game that was that high. How can someone who never reached a slam final and didnt even reach her first slam semifinal until really late in her career have been ranked #3. I dont even know when she was ranked #3, that is how obscure an occurence it was, but I doubt other players ever at any point considered her the 3rd best player in the World. Yet another example of the seemingly forever flawed WTA rankings.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:44 AM
Well,maybe she had consistency...better than other players,just like Wozniacki has it today!

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 07:52 AM
Well,maybe she had consistency...better than other players,just like Wozniacki has it today!

Yeah but Wozniacki's ranking is still met with alot of disdain. I imagine Maleeva's would have been too if the internet was around then, and if anyone even cared about anyone other than Martina and Chris in the 80s. I just looked up her #3 ranking was in early 1985. I know she had some good tournaments in 1984, but she didnt even reach a slam semifinal until her 2nd last year on tour in 1992. To think she was somehow ranked over people like Mandlikova, Shriver, or even Sukova then with her slam results is :lol: I doubt very much any of the players on tour considered her the true #3 at the point she held that rank.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:17 AM
Understand your point ;-) but she is way higher than Date!

wateva
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:13 AM
date's highest rank is 4...

Londoner
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:13 AM
Yes, apart from Serena and Clijsters. And the latter would be down to age, not talent.

Human Nature
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:43 AM
Seles did not exactly matched or surpassed Graf´s achievements.

This would be like saying that a grand slam winning Henin (eg post 2003) is better than Serena :retard:




Retard yourself

She didnt achieve Graf's simply because she was way younger than her so its a bit normal she needed time to do it but its obvious she was in her way to surpass Graf before being stabbed

Serena and Henin are the same generation (8 months ) and their carreer are not still over
At the moment clearly serena is the better of the two

But anyway i dont realy see in wich way this comparison is relevant
Its not the same storyline not even the same kind of rivalry

Human Nature
Sep 28th, 2010, 09:53 AM
Well,she has wins over current world number 1,world number 3 and world number 5 with Wozniacki and Zvonareva being the others...if she could have proper preparations I believe she could beat them too...


Those current world N1 and 3 were not exactely World N1 and 3 back then

Actually theyr were still teenagers

Human Nature
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:07 AM
Yes she could (if she gets fit obviously). She almost beat a fearless Serena in 1999 - who later on went to win the US Open. Serena in 1999 > any of the top 5 right now.

Serena was still a teenager and Graf won RG that year too

Serena 2002 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1999

She wasnt even close to her peak




People are like the last 2 years represents a whole decade

The 2000's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1990's

Andiyan
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:08 AM
So irrelevant.

justineheninfan
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:22 AM
Seles did not exactly matched or surpassed Graf´s achievements.

This would be like saying that a grand slam winning Henin (eg post 2003) is better than Serena :retard:




Retard yourself

She didnt achieve Graf's simply because she was way younger than her so its a bit normal she needed time to do it but its obvious she was in her way to surpass Graf before being stabbed

Serena and Henin are the same generation (8 months ) and their carreer are not still over At the moment clearly serena is the better of the two

But anyway i dont realy see in wich way this comparison is relevant
Its not the same storyline not even the same kind of rivalry


If you eliminate the 1993 (after April) to 1995 period (including 95 U.S Open when Seles was just starting her comeback) altogether Graf would still have 15 slams to 9 for Seles. Seles was never going to end up with better numbers than Graf since she simply wasnt a good enough player long term. Anyway like I said:

Peak Graf 1987-1989 or 1995-1996 > Peak Seles of 1991-1992. You dont believe me I will post every available stat and it will make it pretty clear there is a huge difference in who was better. And it certainly isnt related to competition as even if you eliminate Graf (and for the record peak Seles still had a losing head to head with Graf) Seles still would be less dominant than Graf in her peak years.

Average Graf > Average Seles

Well out of prime or slumping Graf > Well out of prime Seles

All that 1991 and 1992 showed was Seles in the 1st and 2nd best years of tennis of her career was better than Graf in the 10th and llth best years of tennis of her career. Eliminate Seles in 91 and 92 and they would still be crummy years for Graf's standards with only a lone slam at Wimbledon in both, embarassing records for her standards vs many of the top players including losing 7 out of 8 to Sabatini and losing multiple times to her pigeon Novotna in major events, and some embarassing type showings in losses especialy a couple to Sanchez.

And you were the one that mentioned "even Seles" couldnt win slams vs Serena's generation. However Graf even at age 29 and 30 was not hopeless vs Serena's generation when they were all far better than today (apart from possibly Serena) the way a 23 year old and older Seles was. She posted 8 wins over Venus, Davenport, Hingis, and Serena in her last year on tour alone, and made the finals of her final 2 slams- winning one. So just because even Seles, the inferior player compared to Graf as far as long range and long term ability, could not do it, doesnt mean Graf would be unable. Graf had already proven that in fact.

Yes Serena is greater than Henin, which even as a Henin fan I will freely admit. However Spencer's point was if you cherry picked certain periods you could say Henin was better, the same way you can for Seles if you want to try and do the same. For example Henin in 2003-2007 was much better than Serena overall, in fact she ended every one of those 5 years being better than Serena for that year (2003 is the only year one could question due to Serena's injury perhaps), it of course doesnt make her better than Serena for their whole careers though. Just like even if Seles ended up being better than Graf 1991-1995 she still wouldnt have been better for their whole careers, and there is no way of knowing if she even would have been been better than Graf in 1993, 1994, or 1995 anyway. As it is it is only 1991-1992.

SymphonyX
Sep 28th, 2010, 10:28 AM
If Steffi didn't have two children and is super fit, I'd give her a chance.

I'm watching Daniela right now getting slaughtered by Kimiko. I still can't believe she's 40 years old.

Navratil
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:02 AM
For sure! If she gets in shape she could beat a Wozniacki or a Jankovic...

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:34 AM
Those current world N1 and 3 were not exactely World N1 and 3 back then

Actually theyr were still teenagers

Neither was Steffi number 1,so what's the point?

When she played Venus she was most of the time lower ranked player...

Human Nature
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:50 AM
Neither was Steffi number 1,so what's the point?

When she played Venus she was most of the time lower ranked player...


Steffi was top 5 and won RG

Serena was only starting her carreer that is the point

You make it seem like she has beaten a peak serena or Venus when that wasnt near the case

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:53 AM
And she was way past her peak and beat them...after all,Serena also won US Open that year,so she was already really good!

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 11:53 AM
For some of you...

Graf against Date:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pextsUCQYu4

Enjoy!

Betten
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:26 PM
I think around 20-30 would absolutely be reasonable goal for a HEALTHY 41 year old Graf, BUT the reason she retired was her body was breaking down.

Exactly :shrug:.

I'm sure she could make it competitive for a set or so, but she'd be depleted after that.

Human Nature
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:39 PM
justineheninfanYes Serena is greater than Henin, which even as a Henin fan I will freely admit. However Spencer's point was if you cherry picked certain periods you could say Henin was better, the same way you can for Seles if you want to try and do the same. For example Henin in 2003-2007 was much better than Serena overall, in fact she ended every one of those 5 years being better than Serena for that year (2003 is the only year one could question due to Serena's injury perhaps), it of course doesnt make her better than Serena for their whole careers though. Just like even if Seles ended up being better than Graf 1991-1995 she still wouldnt have been better for their whole careers, and there is no way of knowing if she even would have been been better than Graf in 1993, 1994, or 1995 anyway. As it is it is only 1991-1992.[/QUOTE]


I am not comparing their achivement of course there is no comparison i am just sayng at their peak Seles was better



I have understood spencer's point but still think it was irrelevant because its clearly not the same kind of rivalry nor the same story

We can compare Graf and Seles because we have been able to see them on courts batlling each other at a very high level peaking each other at the same time until Seles got stabbed


That is not the case between serena and Henin which has never been a real rivalry not the one we have all dreamt about

One would say when Henin used to lose against serena she hasnt already won a slam and when she won her first and was ready to compete fully with serena this one got injured badly and had her sister shot

You cant say Henin was better between 2003 and 2007 since they havent met each other in the meantime

But In 2007 clearly she was the better player but was it relevant since serena was only coming back and starting to commit again in the sport
was she the player she used to be in 2003 hell no !
She needed time to recover and being again a top player

In 2008 and 2010 clearly serena is better than Henin now she has had the time to recover but Henin is no more the player she was in 2007 either

Their carreer are not over and we are still hoping and waiting for them to compete at a high level at the same time which hasnt happened since 2003 thats why i say the comparison is irrelevant

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:49 PM
I am not comparing their achivement of course there is no comparison i am just sayng at their peak Seles was better


Peak Seles(while she was number 1 pre-stabbing) was playing "weak" Graf and Graf was able to lead their H2H even at that time during Monica's reign...so I wouldn't say that peak Seles was better than Graf at her peak!

Maria rocks
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:51 PM
No chance. Its all changed since she was at her peak. Players are a lot stronger now.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 01:07 PM
No chance. Its all changed since she was at her peak. Players are a lot stronger now.

Of course this are changed...today 40 year old Date can beat Sharapova,Safina,Hantuchova in a row... ;)

Steffica Greles
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:11 PM
I think the Clijsters exhibition answered those questions.


One minute an unfit 40 year-old was going toe to toe with Clijsters in an even contest, and the next minute Clijsters is US Open champion.


Give Steffi a few months to train, and a week between matches because of her age, and she'd defeat lots of todays no-hope-ovas who can't hit properly.


The only difference is the older they get, the more recovery time they need. If Kimiko didn't need extra recovery time, she'd be top 4.

debopero
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:58 PM
Those current world N1 and 3 were not exactely World N1 and 3 back then

Actually theyr were still teenagers

Thank you. Since 1999 Serena has improved in many respects.

Anabelcroft
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Thank you. Since 1999 Serena has improved in many respects.

True,but Graf was also way better than in '99!In '99 she was a shadow of herself even if she won RG!

Vincey!
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:38 PM
Right now, no I don't think she could. But with 6 or 9 months of training of course she could, but this is not right now though so I voted no :p

Justin
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Steffi would dominate but she would never come back, clearly. LOL I think she was just waiting to win one last Major and then retire. That's what happened. If only she could have won Wimbledon too. :sobbing:


Oh, Mother of Pearl. Now I've heard it all. Hell, maybe she can come back as an incontinent 85 year old with osteoporosis? She is Steffi Graf, after all. I'm sure she'll dominate then, too; at least if we can keep Margaret Court away from the Tour. She just might be too much of a challenge for Steffi.

TennisFan66
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:00 PM
I thought at first this was a discussion of a 'peak'ish' Graf Vs current top 5, but its actually about a current Graf Vs current top 5 :help:

Btw, I hear Mohammed Ali is planning a come-back ...

PS To Justin right above. Like your humour, mate!

MaBaker
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:02 PM
She would struggle only with Serena.

Fuzzylogic
Sep 28th, 2010, 05:09 PM
Agree with the above, give her a full year of training with some practice or exho matches in between, and her only competition would be Serena.

Anabelcroft
Sep 29th, 2010, 12:14 AM
Agree

Shvedbarilescu
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:04 AM
Some of the posts in this thread are hysterical. Don't you people understand anything about aging? :shrug:

AcesHigh
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:11 AM
Some of the posts in this thread are hysterical. Don't you people understand anything about aging? :shrug:

Steffi isn't 65.
The question assumed a healthy and fit Graf. Obviously not possible with her history and her age, but if she were healthy and fit, she has all the skills necessary to be a top 20 player.

goldenlox
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:13 AM
Navratilova is 53 and she could get a ranking now, and still kick Graf's ass

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:14 AM
Navratilova is 53 and she could get a ranking now, and still kick Graf's ass
We have now reached the "ridiculously absurd" threshold.

goldenlox
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:16 AM
Martina came back in 2002, she should try it again

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=27806

Anabelcroft
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:18 AM
Navratilova is 53 and she could get a ranking now, and still kick Graf's ass

Goldie,you are so funny :lol:

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:19 AM
And she was way past her peak and beat them...after all,Serena also won US Open that year,so she was already really good!
But not anywhere near her peak, as the next two years would prove.

AcesHigh
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:19 AM
Martina came back in 2002, she should try it again

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=27806

Martina tried a return and it was awful...

spencercarlos
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:26 AM
Martina tried a return and it was awful...
She was not actually making a real comeback, i heard she lost a bet or something and had to play a couple of events, nothing more nothing else.

In mixed doubles she won a slam in 2006 if i remmember correctly. And was also good enough to play doubles grand slam finals again in 2004-2005?

goldenlox
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:27 AM
She won mixed USO 2006 with Bob Bryan and won a singles match at Wimbledon in 2004

AcesHigh
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:30 AM
She was not actually making a real comeback, i heard she lost a bet or something and had to play a couple of events, nothing more nothing else.

In mixed doubles she won a slam in 2006 if i remmember correctly. And was also good enough to play doubles grand slam finals again in 2004-2005?

Doubles she's fine.. singles, not so much.
I think she made a doubles slam final in 2002 or 2003 with Kuzy

goldenlox
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:37 AM
When she won 1st round Wimbledon in 2004, she lost in 3 sets to Dulko in round 2, which is what a lot of top 10 players do.

AcesHigh
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:43 AM
When she won 1st round Wimbledon in 2004, she lost in 3 sets to Dulko in round 2, which is what a lot of top 10 players do.

No... it's not. I think that was her only win in 5 events

Anabelcroft
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:50 AM
But not anywhere near her peak, as the next two years would prove.

Also,Graf was not anywhere near her peak also,so...

Matt01
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:52 AM
No... it's not. I think that was her only win in 5 events


You're wrong. She won several matches. And she won her first match in Wimbledon on her comeback 6:0, 6:1 :rolleyes:

goldenlox
Sep 29th, 2010, 01:52 AM
2004 she also won against Santangelo. She lost 4&4 to Frazier, who beat 2 seed Myskina at Wimbledon.
She played a match in 2005 and lost 64 in the 3rd to Schaul

And yes, her Wimbledon win was 60, 61, then a close match with Dulko

LightWarrior
Sep 29th, 2010, 02:26 AM
Of course she would not. I'm sure that she's beat Safina though.

AcesHigh
Sep 29th, 2010, 04:53 AM
You're wrong. She won several matches. And she won her first match in Wimbledon on her comeback 6:0, 6:1 :rolleyes:

Ok.. she was 2-5... much better :rolleyes:

2004 she also won against Santangelo. She lost 4&4 to Frazier, who beat 2 seed Myskina at Wimbledon.
She played a match in 2005 and lost 64 in the 3rd to Schaul

And yes, her Wimbledon win was 60, 61, then a close match with Dulko

Frazier is no world-beater. Facts are she was 2-5... that's not top 10, 20 or 40 material

Renalicious
Sep 29th, 2010, 04:59 AM
Wtf, no. :spit: She lost to Date in 2008 :cuckoo: And have you seen her in the exho's she's played? (The IW one) She isn't good anymore. :cuckoo:

I'd say out of the Top 5...she'd take a set off Vera at best but none of the others.

Anabelcroft
Sep 29th, 2010, 02:00 PM
Wtf, no. :spit: She lost to Date in 2008 :cuckoo: And have you seen her in the exho's she's played? (The IW one) She isn't good anymore. :cuckoo:

I'd say out of the Top 5...she'd take a set off Vera at best but none of the others.

You can't compare Date with her...in an interview she gave with Agassi she said she rarely even plays tennis...unlike Date who practiced a lot...if she would prepare it would be another thing!

$uricate
Sep 29th, 2010, 07:23 PM
I said yes, I could see her beating Vera for instance.

She would have a much better chance if Ana or Dinara were still top 5.

And she could undoubtedly beat Noservapova.

bandabou
Oct 5th, 2010, 09:30 AM
She could probably still beat the Aga's and Caro's of this world, I guess.

benbest
Oct 5th, 2010, 10:33 AM
easy

Anabelcroft
Oct 6th, 2010, 12:28 PM
easy

Looking how high ranking current players play I agree...

Juanes
Oct 6th, 2010, 12:39 PM
it is possible i think... ;)

JonBcn
Oct 6th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Of course she can't beat top 5 players now. It's 4am in Las Vegas, she'll be in bed.