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selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 02:52 AM
Who is the best female player to never win a Slam title. The main candidates I can think of are:

Pam Shriver- long time World #4. Only 1 slam final. Got stuck in the Martina-Chris-Graf era and was also overshadowed by Hana and Tracy.

Mary Joe Fernandez- long time top 10 player who flucuated between 4-10 in the rankings. 3 slam finals and many slam semis and quarters. Nearly won the 93 French and possibly the 91 Australian Opens.

Helena Sukova- 4 slam finals. 3 of the 4 on hard courts. Posted wins over Martina (3 times), Chris (1 time), and Sanchez (1 time) to reach her 4 slam finals but losing to Chris, Martina, or Steffi in all 4.

Elena Dementieva- still active player with 2 slam finals, quite a few more slam semis, and an Olympic singles Gold. Hope for elusive singles slam seem to be dwindling.

Jelena Jankovic- another active player who briefly reached #1 but has reached only 1 slam final.

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 02:57 AM
I voted for Mary Joe although it is probably really Pam.

spiceboy
Sep 4th, 2010, 03:31 AM
Sukova by a long shot

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 03:59 AM
I suspect alot will say Sukova but I find her overrated. She was never a consistent top 5 player like Shriver and to a lesser degree Fernandez were. She first came up in the Shriver era and while Shriver was a solid #4 Sukova was ranked around 8. Then when Fernandez came up she was ranked over Sukova already even when Sukova was still playing well. And then there is her 3-9 head to head with Shriver (dont know what her head to head with Fernandez is).

I think alot judge her on some of her big performances vs Martina in big matches. Maybe she was just a bad matchup for Martina though. Or maybe Martina had a mental block playing Sukova with the situation with Sukova's mom. Anyway she still owns Sukova something like 26-5 even if in big matches Sukova was a personal nemisis to her, but in their one slam final Martina spanked her.

The current players are of a different time altogether. However if you cant win a slam against the current crop you probably dont deserve one that badly anyway.

austinrunner
Sep 4th, 2010, 04:25 AM
You cannot be serious. Those only the other players we can vote for? I abstain.

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 04:29 AM
You cannot be serious. Those only the other players we can vote for? I abstain.

Who else would you expect. Someone who didnt win a slam in the 1920s, LOL!

austinrunner
Sep 4th, 2010, 05:44 AM
There are lots of candidates from throughout the history of tennis, not just during the last 25 years. For example, Judy Tegart Dalton, Helga Niessen Masthoff, Olga Morozova, Wendy Turnbull, Rosemary Casals, Andrea Jaeger, Zina Garrison, Dinara Safina, Kay Stammers Menzies Bullitt, Dorothy Head Knode, Beverly Baker Fleitz, Elizabeth Ryan, Lili de Alvarez, and Eileen Bennet Whittingstall. ("For example" implies there are others, too.) That's why your poll is so lame and myopic.

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 07:36 AM
There are lots of candidates from throughout the history of tennis, not just during the last 25 years. For example, Judy Tegart Dalton, Helga Niessen Masthoff, Olga Morozova, Wendy Turnbull, Rosemary Casals, Andrea Jaeger, Zina Garrison, Dinara Safina, Kay Stammers Menzies Bullitt, Dorothy Head Knode, Beverly Baker Fleitz, Elizabeth Ryan, Lili de Alvarez, and Eileen Bennet Whittingstall. ("For example" implies there are others, too.) That's why your poll is so lame and myopic.

It is already plainly obvious Dinara Safina is a worse player than Jankovic or Dementieva, or that Zina Garrison is a weaker player than Helena Sukova or Pam Shriver who achieved far more overall playing in the same timeframe. Nor is Turnbull even possibly a better player than Shriver who immediately leapt ahead of her as a teenager and stayed there the remainder of their careers. If you dont like my poll then why dont you create a 30 option poll somehow even though it isnt allowed and include every redundant option you can just for the heck of it. :rolleyes:

DennisFitz
Sep 4th, 2010, 08:23 AM
There are lots of candidates from throughout the history of tennis, not just during the last 25 years. For example, Judy Tegart Dalton, Helga Niessen Masthoff, Olga Morozova, Wendy Turnbull, Rosemary Casals, Andrea Jaeger, Zina Garrison, Dinara Safina, Kay Stammers Menzies Bullitt, Dorothy Head Knode, Beverly Baker Fleitz, Elizabeth Ryan, Lili de Alvarez, and Eileen Bennet Whittingstall. ("For example" implies there are others, too.) That's why your poll is so lame and myopic.

Well there you have it. The best of all-time not to win a major. The one we all know and love:

Eileeen Bennet Whittingstall!

Call that Hall of Fame! Time to erect a new wing in honor of the late, great, well almost great Eileen!

Goes to show you how tough it can be to win a major. And how luck certainly plays a part. And how I still say those who did play, and win, majors in the 1970s, like Baroness Barker or Mima Jausovec, or Babs Jordan, don't have to be worried about being on the list of greatest who DIN'T! Cuz they DID win a major. Others like Mrs. Dalton, Casals, Turnbull, Ryan, Sukova, Dementieva, et al have not won a major, even if their careers rate higher than some of the winners like Ruzici, or even Miss Myskina Majoli or Ivanovic.

I don't think Sukova is overrated at all. I think she does deserve a place in the HoF. And I think she was very unfortunate to play during the Chris-Martina-Steffi years, losing 4 major finals to the likes of that trio. And to make matters worse, she beat either Martina (3x) or Chris en route to her finals. And to boot, she reached major finals 9 years apart! Some players (Jaeger, Morozova) had one or two strong years when they reached a major final. Sukova got to finals in 1984, 1986, 1989, and 1993, demonstrating she was a threat for a while. Shriver also played during this time, and may have had a higher overall ranking. Apart from her debut appearance when she reached the 1978 Open final, she wasn't winning big matches in majors (yeah she beat Martina again in 1982, but lost to Hana and would have been killed by Evert had she gotten to another final). Sukova was able to score her big win, and follow up with necessary just to get to another major final. So props to Helena for 4 major final appearances, but bad luck not to have won one.

Pat Bateman
Sep 4th, 2010, 09:12 AM
Sukova. Four Slam finals beats everything else.

chris whiteside
Sep 4th, 2010, 09:15 AM
It is already plainly obvious Dinara Safina is a worse player than Jankovic or Dementieva, or that Zina Garrison is a weaker player than Helena Sukova or Pam Shriver who achieved far more overall playing in the same timeframe. Nor is Turnbull even possibly a better player than Shriver who immediately leapt ahead of her as a teenager and stayed there the remainder of their careers. If you dont like my poll then why dont you create a 30 option poll somehow even though it isnt allowed and include every redundant option you can just for the heck of it. :rolleyes:


Well, that's all a matter of opinion.

I find the options limiting too but I wouldn't argue about it - could you just not have put in a sixth option - "other"?

AdeyC
Sep 4th, 2010, 12:10 PM
No contest - Helena Sukova

samn
Sep 4th, 2010, 01:11 PM
Duk Hee Lee

spiceboy
Sep 4th, 2010, 06:20 PM
Sukova. Four Slam finals beats everything else.

Not only that. Playing a YEC final, multiple GS & YEC semis, beating virtually every big name in tennis those days and one of the very few players who won a WTA tournament beating in that same tournament both Evert and Navratilova :worship:

Deck
Sep 4th, 2010, 06:23 PM
Dementieva

Jankovic in this poll:help:

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 07:11 PM
Dementieva

Jankovic in this poll:help:

If Dementieva is your pick why wouldnt Jankovic atleast be in the poll. There isnt much difference between them either way.

Mike25
Sep 4th, 2010, 07:15 PM
For me, it's Mary Joe all the way, by virtue of so many near misses in the slams. Here are a few of Mary Joe's heartbreaking losses in Slams:

1990 US Open Semis - After Sabatini won a tight 1st set, Mary Joe stepped up her game and won the 2nd set. However, in the 3rd set, Sabatini changed tactics, and Mary Joe couldn't make the adjustment needed to beat Sabatini.

1991 Australian Open Semis - Mary Joe drops an excruciating 3rd set to Monica, 9-7. If Mary Joe wins this match, she has an excellent chance of beating Jana in the Final, due to Jana's choking issues.

1992 Australian Open Final - Once again, Monica is standing in Mary Joe's way. However, it's not close this time, as Monica wins easily in straights.

1993 French Open Final - After Mary Joe's amazing comeback against Sabatini, she still had plenty left in the tank, reaching the final against Fraulein Forehand. Nice effort by Mary Joe, but Steffi came up with the goods when it counted.

Of course, there are other Slams where Mary Joe came tantilizingly close to winning, but these are some of the more prominent ones. It's a shame Mary Joe couldn't cash in a Slam win. However, because of her numerous near misses, Mary Joe is 1st in my book, as the best player to never capture a slam.

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 07:20 PM
For me, it's Mary Joe all the way, by virtue of so many near misses in the slams. Here are a few of Mary Joe's heartbreaking losses in Slams:

1990 US Open Semis - After Sabatini won a tight 1st set, Mary Joe stepped up her game and won the 2nd set. However, in the 3rd set, Sabatini changed tactics, and Mary Joe couldn't make the adjustment needed to beat Sabatini.

1991 Australian Open Semis - Mary Joe drops an excruciating 3rd set to Monica, 9-7. If Mary Joe wins this match, she has an excellent chance of beating Jana in the Final, due to Jana's choking issues.

1992 Australian Open Final - Once again, Monica is standing in Mary Joe's way. However, it's not close this time, as Monica wins easily in straights.

1993 French Open Final - After Mary Joe's amazing comeback against Sabatini, she still had plenty left in the tank, reaching the final against Fraulein Forehand. Nice effort by Mary Joe, but Steffi came up with the goods when it counted.

Of course, there are other Slams where Mary Joe came tantilizingly close to winning, but these are some of the more prominent ones. It's a shame Mary Joe couldn't cash in a Slam win. However, because of her numerous near misses, Mary Joe is 1st in my book, as the best player to never capture a slam.

She was only close to the title in 2 of those though. As you said she was never close at the 92 Australian Open despite reaching the final. As for the 1990 U.S Open had she beaten Sabatini that would have just been good news for Graf as Mary Joe would have had no chance against Graf especialy on a fast hard court. The only close matches Mary Joe has ever had vs Graf are on slower courts like at the 93 French and 99 Australian Opens.

spencercarlos
Sep 4th, 2010, 08:18 PM
For me, it's Mary Joe all the way, by virtue of so many near misses in the slams. Here are a few of Mary Joe's heartbreaking losses in Slams:

1990 US Open Semis - After Sabatini won a tight 1st set, Mary Joe stepped up her game and won the 2nd set. However, in the 3rd set, Sabatini changed tactics, and Mary Joe couldn't make the adjustment needed to beat Sabatini.

1991 Australian Open Semis - Mary Joe drops an excruciating 3rd set to Monica, 9-7. If Mary Joe wins this match, she has an excellent chance of beating Jana in the Final, due to Jana's choking issues.

1992 Australian Open Final - Once again, Monica is standing in Mary Joe's way. However, it's not close this time, as Monica wins easily in straights.

1993 French Open Final - After Mary Joe's amazing comeback against Sabatini, she still had plenty left in the tank, reaching the final against Fraulein Forehand. Nice effort by Mary Joe, but Steffi came up with the goods when it counted.

Of course, there are other Slams where Mary Joe came tantilizingly close to winning, but these are some of the more prominent ones. It's a shame Mary Joe couldn't cash in a Slam win. However, because of her numerous near misses, Mary Joe is 1st in my book, as the best player to never capture a slam.
Add 1990 Australian Open where Mary Joe played the final vs Graf. 6-4 6-4 she lost if my memory serves well.

1990 Usopen. Mary Joe led 4-1 in the first Sabatini ended up winning 7-5 by playing at the net. Mary Joe won 7-5 the second set and Sabatini played brilliant stuff sneaking in on everything and puller her away... 6-3

1993 French Open Mary Joe was 2-0 and break points for 3-0 and led 3-1 and 4*-3 with a break as well in the third set. Graf barely got by her...

selesisqueen
Sep 4th, 2010, 08:21 PM
Seles choked in the 91 Australian Open semis vs Seles and in the 93 French Open final vs Graf. She should have won both of those titles. She was a player who tended to be very tough and play well when behind like the famous French Open match with Sabatini, but get tight and have trouble keeping her nerve when she was ahead or on the verge of a big win.

Steffi Parche Graf Agassi was so lucky. First Seles being stabbed when she was certain to win the 1993 and 1994 Calendar Grand Slams, then Fernandez and Novotna choking away the French and Wimbledon finals to her.

austinrunner
Sep 4th, 2010, 11:13 PM
Where did you buy your crystall ball?

selesisqueen
Sep 5th, 2010, 12:07 AM
Who needs a crystal ball. Here is Seles before the stabbing:

Seles Grand Slams from 1990-early 1993:

1990 Australian Open- DNP. Would have won if she did

1990 French Open- WON

1990 Wimbledon- lost in quarters due to bad line call vs Garrison. Otherwise would have won the title

1990 U.S Open- lost 3rd round to Ferrando. Legitimate loss.

1991 Australian Open- WON

1991 French Open- WON

1991 Wimbledon- DNP. Would have won if she did.

1991 U.S Open- WON

1992 Australian Open- WON

1992 Wimbledon- lost final to Graf due to being harassed and bullied not to grunt. Otherwise would have destroyed Graf in final.

1992 U.S Open- WON

1993 Australian Open- WON

So considering she is the real winner of the 1990 Australian Open, 1990 Wimbledon, 1991 Wimbledon, and 1992 Wimbledon titles she won 12 of 13 slams before the stabbing. Her only real loss being the 1990 U.S Open 3rd round to Linda Ferrando. She was 4 years younger than Graf and was dominating her on all surfaces. It is easy to see she was going to own the next 4 years atleast until someone new came along like Hingis, since Graf was a piece of cake for her, and nobody else was even come close, and nobody new good enough would come until Hingis.

And it is annoying to hear people say Seles at her prime could never win Wimbledon. She was cheated out of the Wimbledon title in 1990 by a bad line call in the quarterfinal to Zina Garrison, and in 1992 by being harassed not to grunt. And in 1991 had it in the bag had she just been able to play. She was unbeatable on all surfaces before the stabbing, including grass, as long as she was able to play and wasnt cheated by officials and harassed into not being able to play properly.

hingis-seles
Sep 5th, 2010, 12:41 AM
Who needs a crystal ball. Here is Seles before the stabbing:

Seles Grand Slams from 1990-early 1993:

1990 Australian Open- DNP. Would have won if she did

1990 French Open- WON

1990 Wimbledon- lost in quarters due to bad line call vs Garrison. Otherwise would have won the title

1990 U.S Open- lost 3rd round to Ferrando. Legitimate loss.

1991 Australian Open- WON

1991 French Open- WON

1991 Wimbledon- DNP. Would have won if she did.

1991 U.S Open- WON

1992 Australian Open- WON

1992 Wimbledon- lost final to Graf due to being harassed and bullied not to grunt. Otherwise would have destroyed Graf in final.

1992 U.S Open- WON

1993 Australian Open- WON

So considering she is the real winner of the 1990 Australian Open, 1990 Wimbledon, 1991 Wimbledon, and 1992 Wimbledon titles she won 12 of 13 slams before the stabbing. Her only real loss being the 1990 U.S Open 3rd round to Linda Ferrando. She was 4 years younger than Graf and was dominating her on all surfaces. It is easy to see she was going to own the next 4 years atleast until someone new came along like Hingis, since Graf was a piece of cake for her, and nobody else was even come close, and nobody new good enough would come until Hingis.

And it is annoying to hear people say Seles at her prime could never win Wimbledon. She was cheated out of the Wimbledon title in 1990 by a bad line call in the quarterfinal to Zina Garrison, and in 1992 by being harassed not to grunt. And in 1991 had it in the bag had she just been able to play. She was unbeatable on all surfaces before the stabbing, including grass, as long as she was able to play and wasnt cheated by officials and harassed into not being able to play properly.

No one cares. Please stick to the topic of discussion which YOU started.

austinrunner
Sep 5th, 2010, 02:03 AM
Who needs a crystal ball. Blah, blah, blah, blah mixed with lots of whining.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

spiceboy
Sep 5th, 2010, 02:33 AM
Steffi Parche Graf Agassi was so lucky.

And you are an asshole :wavey:

Mike25
Sep 5th, 2010, 03:15 AM
She was only close to the title in 2 of those though. As you said she was never close at the 92 Australian Open despite reaching the final. As for the 1990 U.S Open had she beaten Sabatini that would have just been good news for Graf as Mary Joe would have had no chance against Graf especialy on a fast hard court. The only close matches Mary Joe has ever had vs Graf are on slower courts like at the 93 French and 99 Australian Opens.

Well, your right about Mary Joe's 1992 Aussie Open Final against Monica; it was Monica's match all the way. Still, Mary Joe had reached the Aussie Open Final the previous year, and nearly beat Monica then. But in the 1992 Final, Monica was simply unstoppable, and Mary Joe was probably beat before ever stepping on court.

As for the 1990 US Open, I agree Mary Joe's chance of beating Steffi in the Final would have been slim, had Mary Joe gotten past Sabatini in the semis. Mary Joe had the game to frustrate Sabatini on hardcourt, but Steffi would have easily handled Mary Joe on this surface.

Mary Joe's best oppportunity to win a slam was against Steffi in the '93 French Final. And slow red clay was the one surface where Mary Joe's game could hurt Steffi.

To be sure, Mary Joe had her chances to win a slam. But when your facing competition the caliber of Monica and Steffi, it's easier said than done.

Deck
Sep 5th, 2010, 05:28 AM
If Dementieva is your pick why wouldnt Jankovic atleast be in the poll. There isnt much difference between them either way.

without the second sentence, I would have responded, but this way there's simply no point

Helen Lawson
Sep 5th, 2010, 03:35 PM
Sounds awful, but I'm not excited to vote for any of these dames. As much as I hate to admit, two of the three slam finals she made, Dinara played pretty well to get there, just gagged away the final. Can I really select her??

DennisFitz
Sep 6th, 2010, 02:11 AM
For me, it's Mary Joe all the way, by virtue of so many near misses in the slams. Here are a few of Mary Joe's heartbreaking losses in Slams:

1990 US Open Semis - After Sabatini won a tight 1st set, Mary Joe stepped up her game and won the 2nd set. However, in the 3rd set, Sabatini changed tactics, and Mary Joe couldn't make the adjustment needed to beat Sabatini.

1991 Australian Open Semis - Mary Joe drops an excruciating 3rd set to Monica, 9-7. If Mary Joe wins this match, she has an excellent chance of beating Jana in the Final, due to Jana's choking issues.

1992 Australian Open Final - Once again, Monica is standing in Mary Joe's way. However, it's not close this time, as Monica wins easily in straights.

1993 French Open Final - After Mary Joe's amazing comeback against Sabatini, she still had plenty left in the tank, reaching the final against Fraulein Forehand. Nice effort by Mary Joe, but Steffi came up with the goods when it counted.

Of course, there are other Slams where Mary Joe came tantilizingly close to winning, but these are some of the more prominent ones. It's a shame Mary Joe couldn't cash in a Slam win. However, because of her numerous near misses, Mary Joe is 1st in my book, as the best player to never capture a slam.

Mary Joe had some really good results in majors. But I still feel like Sukova's 4 final round appearances, three times beating Martina (two of which when Martina was #1 or #2 seed, and also beating #2 Chris at US Open, and #2 Arantxa at US Open) outweighs Mary Joe's 3 final round appearances. Helena also got to finals on grass, DecoTurf, and Rebound Ace.

The 1990 and 1992 Australian Open finals were never really in doubt, although MJ gave a good account of herself in both finals.

At the 1991 Australian semis, which she barely lost to Seles, it was bad luck, But Seles was still the better player, and there is no guarantee MJ would have beaten Novotna. Fernandez had her best shot at the 1993 French where she came closest.

And when you look at their overall careers, I think Helena's definitely outranks Fernandez'

justineheninfan
Sep 6th, 2010, 03:59 AM
Wow no votes for Shriver. I am shocked.

Matt01
Sep 6th, 2010, 04:23 AM
I suspect alot will say Sukova but I find her overrated. She was never a consistent top 5 player like Shriver and to a lesser degree Fernandez were. She first came up in the Shriver era and while Shriver was a solid #4 Sukova was ranked around 8. Then when Fernandez came up she was ranked over Sukova already even when Sukova was still playing well. And then there is her 3-9 head to head with Shriver (dont know what her head to head with Fernandez is).

I think alot judge her on some of her big performances vs Martina in big matches. Maybe she was just a bad matchup for Martina though. Or maybe Martina had a mental block playing Sukova with the situation with Sukova's mom. Anyway she still owns Sukova something like 26-5 even if in big matches Sukova was a personal nemisis to her, but in their one slam final Martina spanked her.

The current players are of a different time altogether. However if you cant win a slam against the current crop you probably dont deserve one that badly anyway.


Do you know Fernandez' H2H with players like Navratilova, Evert, Graf or Seles? Trust me it's not pretty.

Sukova, although qute inconsistant in her last few years on tour, was able to beat the best players of her time at least a few times.

Answer: Sukova.

(Jankovic will win a Slam soon :p)

irma
Sep 6th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Sukova lost 21 times to Steffi in a row from 1986 on after one win in 1983. That's not much better then Mary Joe's record of 0:17 which also started in 1986

Matt01
Sep 6th, 2010, 01:25 PM
Sukova lost 21 times to Steffi in a row from 1986 on after one win in 1983. That's not much better then Mary Joe's record of 0:17 which also started in 1986


Against Graf, Seles, Navratilova and Evert, Fernandez is a combined 1:47. (2%) :help:

Sukova is 9:66. (12%) :tape:

Sukova is not much better than Fernandez here but still a bit better :lol:

hingis-seles
Sep 6th, 2010, 03:25 PM
Against Graf, Seles, Navratilova and Evert, Fernandez is a combined 1:47. (2%) :help:

Sukova is 9:66. (12%) :tape:

Sukova is not much better than Fernandez here but still a bit better :lol:

And the one win over Seles came in 1989, where the umpire got the tiebreak score wrong and awarded MJF and extra point or two - I remember Monica whining about it in "From Fear to Victory".

justineheninfan
Sep 6th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Fernandez was generally high praised for her mental toughness and court smarts which were mostly well deserved. However she had a tendency to get tight when she had a chance to close out big matches, especialy those rare times she found herself in that position vs a Graf or Seles. She would begin playing not to lose rather than to win. 91 Australian Open semis, 93 French Open final, 97 French Open quarters, 1990 U.S Open semis (though she certainly had her share of big wins over Gaby anyway) all come to mind.

austinrunner
Sep 6th, 2010, 08:22 PM
Some Mary Joe Fernandez head-to-head records:

10-13 Gabriela Sabatini
6-5 Helena Sukova
5-0 Natasha Zvereva
5-2 Manuela Maleeva Fragniere
5-2 Mary Pierce
4-2 Katerina Maleeva
4-3 Zina Garrison
4-5 Conchita Martinez
4-5 Lindsay Davenport
4-7 Jana Novotna
4-7 Arantxa Sanchez Vicario
3-1 Magdalena Maleeva
3-2 Pam Shriver
1-0 Serena Williams
1-15 Monica Seles
0-1 Venus Williams
0-2 Jennifer Capriati
0-3 Martina Hingis
0-3 Hana Mandlikova
0-7 Chris Evert
0-8 Martina Navratilova
0-17 Steffi Graf
63-110 36.4%

Without the Maleeva sisters, MJF was 51-105 32.7%.

The above does not include the woulda, coulda, shoulda factor, which is worth at least 100 important victories for MJF, about 10 Grand Slam singles titles, and a place in the International Tennis Hall of Fame. She was robbed....

samn
Sep 6th, 2010, 09:00 PM
Against Graf, Seles, Navratilova and Evert, Fernandez is a combined 1:47. (2%) :help:

Sukova is 9:66. (12%) :tape:

Sukova is not much better than Fernandez here but still a bit better :lol:

Five of Sukova's nine wins came on big occasions, though.

d. Navratilova - AO '84 (semis - ended MN's calendar year GS campaign and her 74-match winning streak), VS Champs '88 (quarters), AO '89 (quarters), USO '93 (4R)
d. Evert - USO '86 (semis)

Plus, she beat Evert and Navratilova back-to-back to win Eastbourne in 1987, also snapping Martina's winning streak on English soil in the process.

Andy T
Sep 6th, 2010, 09:46 PM
For l'amour de dieu, mes amis, what is zis? I can't believe you debate zis question when la réponse is so bloody évidente. C'est La DIVINE Nathalie, whose crie de guerre "allez putain merde" put fear into ze coeurs of all zose soi-disant chevres, or GOATS, you eengleesh say.

I can see zat ze new gang on 'ere need some eestorie leçons:

Have you forgetten zat Nathalie bit Navratilova, Sanchez, Davenport both ze soeurs Williams AND les filles Belges - not to oublier zat paradigm of professionalisme Iva-c'est-la-fête-Majoli - and lost 21 times to Steffi Graf purement in the interests of European unity and to respect the foreign policy of France vis-à-vis Germany (for which she received the légion d'honneur)?

Wimbledon 1998 Nathalie, of the skin couleur chantilly (en fait, it was mainly chantilly inside zose thighs too) ze flaming hair and ze pleated skirts by Coco Chanel, was robbed by zat big cry baby Jana Novotna and ze conspiracy between er, zose jaloux eengleesh at ze awl eenglond cloob and zeir silly duchesse (vive la révolution! off wiz er 'ead!) .

Have you all forgotten zat gazelle-like grace wiz which she charged the net, ze smiling demeanour and ze demure behaviour zat makes Carla Bruni look gauche in comparison?

Winnie Shaw et Sue Mappin mangez your 'earts out, Mary Jo et Pam, donnez-moi un break, itches and ovas, read my levres: NATHALIE TAUZIAT IS ZE BEST FEMELLE NEVER TO WIN UN CHELEM: fin d'histoire!!

gabybackhand
Sep 7th, 2010, 03:54 AM
Glorieuse! :lol:

killing kindness
Sep 7th, 2010, 03:01 PM
(Jankovic will win a Slam soon :p)

I'm glad you can see the future so clearly. Especially with Jankovic having been consistently mediocre for 2 years now in slam events.

Does your crystal ball say which slam it will be?

calou
Sep 7th, 2010, 03:19 PM
For l'amour de dieu, mes amis, what is zis? I can't believe you debate zis question when la réponse is so bloody évidente. C'est La DIVINE Nathalie, whose crie de guerre "allez putain merde" put fear into ze coeurs of all zose soi-disant chevres, or GOATS, you eengleesh say.

I can see zat ze new gang on 'ere need some eestorie leçons:

Have you forgetten zat Nathalie bit Navratilova, Sanchez, Davenport both ze soeurs Williams AND les filles Belges - not to oublier zat paradigm of professionalisme Iva-c'est-la-fête-Majoli - and lost 21 times to Steffi Graf purement in the interests of European unity and to respect the foreign policy of France vis-à-vis Germany (for which she received the légion d'honneur)?

Wimbledon 1998 Nathalie, of the skin couleur chantilly (en fait, it was mainly chantilly inside zose thighs too) ze flaming hair and ze pleated skirts by Coco Chanel, was robbed by zat big cry baby Jana Novotna and ze conspiracy between er, zose jaloux eengleesh at ze awl eenglond cloob and zeir silly duchesse (vive la révolution! off wiz er 'ead!) .

Have you all forgotten zat gazelle-like grace wiz which she charged the net, ze smiling demeanour and ze demure behaviour zat makes Carla Bruni look gauche in comparison?

Winnie Shaw et Sue Mappin mangez your 'earts out, Mary Jo et Pam, donnez-moi un break, itches and ovas, read my levres: NATHALIE TAUZIAT IS ZE BEST FEMELLE NEVER TO WIN UN CHELEM: fin d'histoire!!
Andy ,voila de la jolie prose ! de toute façon elle n'était pas plus chèvre que les autres !;)

Matt01
Sep 7th, 2010, 04:20 PM
I'm glad you can see the future so clearly. Especially with Jankovic having been consistently mediocre for 2 years now in slam events.

Does your crystal ball say which slam it will be?


Do you know what ":p" means?

My crystal ball says that you have no clue.

killing kindness
Sep 7th, 2010, 04:23 PM
Do you know what ":p" means?

My crystal ball says that you have no clue.

That does not have a set definition in terms of vocabulary, but it does illustrate the action of one sticking their tongue out.

Perhaps you should acquire the skill to be able to express yourself clearly.

Matt01
Sep 7th, 2010, 04:44 PM
That does not have a set definition in terms of vocabulary, but it does illustrate the action of one sticking their tongue out.

Perhaps you should acquire the skill to be able to express yourself clearly.


And maybe you should try to read properly and try to understand the meaning of the basic smilies of an internet forum.

Chrissie-fan
Sep 7th, 2010, 05:44 PM
Sympathy vote for Pam. Besides, it's almost a miracle that such a gracious mover, and one as fast as her never won a major. Not to mention the killer forehand of course. :drink:

Sumarokov-Elston
Sep 7th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Who needs a crystal ball. Here is Seles before the stabbing:

Seles Grand Slams from 1990-early 1993:

1990 Australian Open- DNP. Would have won if she did

1990 Wimbledon- lost in quarters due to bad line call vs Garrison. Otherwise would have won the title

1991 Wimbledon- DNP. Would have won if she did.

1992 Wimbledon- lost final to Graf due to being harassed and bullied not to grunt. Otherwise would have destroyed Graf in final.

So considering she is the real winner of the 1990 Australian Open, 1990 Wimbledon, 1991 Wimbledon, and 1992 Wimbledon titles she won 12 of 13 slams before the stabbing.... And it is annoying to hear people say Seles at her prime could never win Wimbledon. She was cheated out of the Wimbledon title in 1990 by a bad line call in the quarterfinal to Zina Garrison, and in 1992 by being harassed not to grunt. And in 1991 had it in the bag had she just been able to play. She was unbeatable on all surfaces before the stabbing, including grass, as long as she was able to play and wasnt cheated by officials and harassed into not being able to play properly.


OMG! I cannot help it, but I LOVE this post by selesisqueen!! :worship:

Beakling
Sep 10th, 2010, 02:44 AM
Not sure MJF (and Pam S, for that matter) belong in this kind of discussion, and Demented and JJ are still active and call me delusional but I think they both have a decent shot at winning one. Thus I choose Sukova. And will toss out there Bettina Bunge, who had more ability than all of them, probably just lacked the temperament.

Julian Byatt
Sep 11th, 2010, 03:44 AM
And will toss out there Bettina Bunge, who had more ability than all of them, probably just lacked the temperament.
:worship: Nice call, though suspect it will be only the two of us walking that road!

trivfun
Sep 11th, 2010, 04:13 AM
I would say Rosie Casals.

chris whiteside
Sep 14th, 2010, 01:31 PM
I would say Rosie Casals.

I was thinking of Rosie Casals too. She probably reached more Slam semi-finals than any of the others plus the two finals.

What counts against her though is the fact that she never managed to beat any of the GOATS of her time (i.e. Margaret and Billie-Jean) in a Slam. Come to that to a lesser degree she never beat Bueno, Jones nor Richey either although admittedly she played them when she was just breaking into the top 10.

Helena Sukova did beat Martina, Chris and Arantxa in reaching Slam finals.

Andy T
Sep 14th, 2010, 08:40 PM
Andy ,voila de la jolie prose ! de toute façon elle n'était pas plus chèvre que les autres !;)
:lol: C'est vrai ce que tu dis - et en plus Nathalie est une des grandes stars de BFTP, avec Virginia Wade et Pamela Shriver, même si cela fait longtemps que l'on ne les voit plus. :sad:

Of retired open era players, I'd go for Sukova or possibly Andrea Jaeger, with honourable mentions to Rosie, Pam and, I suppose, MJF, who got closer than all of them versus Steffi at RG. Pre-open era, poor Elizabeth Ryan springs to mind as leading contender and among active players Dementieva, Jankovic, Safina & Zvonareva could all end their careers in that unhappy band of candidates.

Beakling
Sep 14th, 2010, 09:13 PM
Sympathy vote for Pam. Besides, it's almost a miracle that such a gracious mover, and one as fast as her never won a major. Not to mention the killer forehand of course. :drink:

LOL. Just saw this. She deserves at least one vote for that forehand alone. ;)

HanaFanGA
Sep 15th, 2010, 02:40 AM
A lot of people forget that Sukova also came within 4 points of reaching the French final in 1986. She lost a great semifinal match that year to Martina. Not that I think she would've beaten Evert, but just a month later she did press Chris 7-5, 7-6 at Fed Cup on clay and I think it was 1983 when Sukova took Chris to 3 sets in Paris. She could really play on all surfaces. I suspect there are many who grew up on 90's tennis that think of her 90's form as her best tennis. But the more racquets changed the more she became vulnerable on clay, and ultimately on any surface when it became difficult to serve and volley.

Sukova is a good example of a player that was seriously affected by the changes in racquet technology. Not only were these two handed backhand baseliners starting to get more pop and angle on their returns, but after Kneissel stopped making her favored racquet frame, Sukova wandered aimlessly through a series of frames that didn't always serve her well. She lost a lot of confidence after the switch in 1988. The downward spiral of her ranking attests to that.

I also think that Shriver gets a bad rap. She was tactically smarter than any person on this list. She didn't have the variety in her game that Sukova did, but the reason why she was 9-3 vs. Sukova is because she had one of the better tennis minds of her day.

The silver lining to having a limited game as Shriver did is that she knew she had no choices and only played to her strengths, which were considerable. She was a deliberate player that could recognize her opponents' weaknesses and line them up vs. her strengths. She did this better than 99% of the tour and thats why she was as successful as she was. However, she too took a nose dive in 1989. Virtually all female serve and volley players not named Martina fell out of the top 10 partially because of improved returns due to the emerging wide body racquets.

I like MJF's game as well. She was another tactically smart player. I rank her behind Sukova though because Sukova was a bigger threat to the top players and showed that with multiple big slam wins over top tier all time greats, Martina and Chris. MJF had some big wins over Gaby and ASV in slam play. But thats about it. Martina once called her game "user friendly." Which meant that for all her strengths, her game was too light to really threaten the top players. Steffi and Monica could really work her around the court because she had nothing to hurt them with unless their own games were off.

justineheninfan
Sep 15th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Sukova though was 1-21 vs Graf but it was really more like 0-21 since her only win Graf was a 14 year old Graf in 1983 the first time they ever played. Their 2nd ever meeting was early 1986 in Boca Raton and the 16 year old Graf creamed Sukova 6-2, 6-1, and the tone was set from their with Sukova winning only 4 sets in their remaining 19 matches. They also played most of their matches in Sukova's "prime" from 1986 to 1989.

thrust
Sep 30th, 2010, 02:03 AM
It is already plainly obvious Dinara Safina is a worse player than Jankovic or Dementieva, or that Zina Garrison is a weaker player than Helena Sukova or Pam Shriver who achieved far more overall playing in the same timeframe. Nor is Turnbull even possibly a better player than Shriver who immediately leapt ahead of her as a teenager and stayed there the remainder of their careers. If you dont like my poll then why dont you create a 30 option poll somehow even though it isnt allowed and include every redundant option you can just for the heck of it. :rolleyes:

I would say Cassals and Ryan. Rosie had a great all-court game and just about every shot in the book. Ryan won many tournaments, but for some reason, could not win the biggest ones. But then, to win a slam she usually had to beat the unbeatable Lenglen or Wills along the way.

thrust
Sep 30th, 2010, 02:08 AM
OMG! I cannot help it, but I LOVE this post by selesisqueen!! :worship:

Well, it is silly enough to be laughable!

jimmy_the_greek
Oct 1st, 2010, 01:48 PM
elena!!

DennisFitz
Oct 1st, 2010, 09:31 PM
I find it hard to comprehend why so many people think Dementieva is the best player never to win a major. There are a lot of very talented players who have never been able to break through and win a major. So many factors need to fall in place for someone other than a Chris/Martina/Court/Serena player to win a major.

Ive always liked Dementieva, and wanted her to win a major. In 2008, I thought her opportunity really was at hand. With Justine out, I figured the 2008 French would be the year she could/should do it. Yet she choked away a match to Safina! After her Olympic win, I then thought she had the confidence and belief in herself to win a really big event. At the '08 US Open, she fell flat in the semis in a very winnable match for her.

Elena started off 2009 great, handily beating Serena in Sydney. I know beating Serena in a regular tour event is nothing like beating her in a Slam. But I always felt Serena knew the threat Elena posed to her. Serena was still a bit vulnerable in the '09 Oz Open. In the early stages of their semi, both players were extremely tight. But it was Elena who blinked first. Once Serena saw that Elena was cooked. I gave Elena tremendous props for pushing Serena in their great Wimbledon semi. Even if Elena survived, no way would she have beaten Venus in the finals. IMHO. Oudin used Elena to start her great run, but that was a match she shouldn't have lost.

I still don't understand why she had to retire against Schiavone at the French this year. But after watching Elena choke away the match against Stosur at the OPen this year, I think that really and truly was her last and final best chance to ever win a major.

Elena has always played better when behind. With a lead, or the expectations of a win, I don't think she has ever been quite ready for prime time. Despite her improved serve *Still with a hitch now), her great retrieving skills, and speed, it's the mind and belief that's lacking.

I still say Sukova, who was good enough to reach 4 major finals 9 years apart, and score huge wins every time she reached a final, is a tremendous player, and just unfortunate not to be able to come through and win a major.

crazillo
Sep 6th, 2011, 03:09 PM
Manuela Maleeva
Elena Dementieva

Anabelcroft
Sep 6th, 2011, 10:17 PM
I voted for Dementieva because her Olympic Gold with two GS finals put's her in special position,but overall I think that Sukova with 4 GS finals and YEC final desreves the title!

Also up there fighting for second and third place are Shriver,Fernandez,Jankovic,Safina and Maleeva!

the computer
Sep 7th, 2011, 07:23 AM
Hi Selesisqueen

WOMENS ALL TIME RANKINGS 1884-2010

24 Elizabeth Ryan 73680 r/u American 1912-1934
48 Rosemary Casals 38874 r/u American 1961-1985
62 HELENA SUKOVA 30254 r/u Czech 1981-1997
63 PAM SHRIVER 30111 r/u American 1978-1997
66 ELENA DEMENTIEVA 27914 r/u Russian 1999-PRESENT
70 Wendy Turnbull 26241 r/u Australian 1971-1989
71 Jan Lehane 25382 r/u Australian 1957-1977
72 Winifred Beamish 24853 British 1907-1932
73 Zina Garrison 24844 r/u American 1980-1996
76 Judy Tegart 24654 r/u Australian 1961-1978
78 MARY JOE FERNANDEZ 23798 r/u American 1985-1999
79 Phyllis Satterthwaite 23766 British 1912-1936
81 Dottie Knode 23298 r/u American 1941-1966
91 Manuela Maleeva 20064 Bulgarian 1982-1994
92 Yola Ramirez 20020 r/u Mexican 1952-1969
93 Andrea Jaeger 19926 r/u American 1980-1987
98 JELENA JANKOVIC 18056 r/u Yugoslavian 2001-PRESENT
99 Dinara Safina 17800 r/u Russian 2002-PRESENT
100 Julie Heldman 17786 American 1961-1975

From your list ‘the computer’ ranks HELENA SUKOVA above the other candidates – although it’s a hairbreadth decision over PAM SHRIVER.

DEMENTIEVA, JANKOVIC and SAFINA are still active so they could move up.

Historically – LIZ RYAN is head and shoulders above the others and has no rivals for this award – remember she won 164 titles (and more according to others).

ROSEMARY CASALS is second – another wonderful player who won 16 titles and made another 43 finals.

Also in the mix are TURNBULL, LEHANE, BEAMISH , GARRISON and TEGART who rank above FERNANDEZ.

The greatest player never to have made a Slam Final is WINIFRED BEAMISH from the early days and in modern times MANUELA MALEEVA.

Personally I would go with ‘the computer’ and unquestionably give it to ELIZABETH RYAN with CASALS second.

I really couldn’t choose between SUKOVA, SHRIVER and DEMENTIEVA – they’re all such wonderful players – but I would say all 3 are clearly ahead of FERNANDEZ and JANKOVIC at this time.

As for those never to have made a slam final – I don’t know anything much about WINIFRED BEAMISH or PHYLLIS SATTERTHWAITE (Rollo and the other historical experts would though) but MANUELA MALEEVA was certainly a fantastic player.

Also it’s nice to see JULIE HELDMAN in the list – as we all know, without her mother Gladys and Billie Jean King we probably wouldn’t have much of a tennis forum.

Graham:wavey: