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View Full Version : 2002 USO semi Venus- Amelie


Marty-Dom
Jul 12th, 2010, 11:41 PM
... tonight on the Tennis Channel. Was it a good match? I can't remember anymore. I do remember some Serena-Amelie semis from 2002 or 2003 that were very good, but not Venus- Amelie.
Is it worth staying up and watching?

TSequoia01
Jul 12th, 2010, 11:45 PM
I remember the match. It was close and hard fought. As I recall Venus squeaked out a win.

SerenaSlam
Jul 12th, 2010, 11:52 PM
ugh i remember all the errors. the end of the 2nd was drama filled (blisters from venus etc) and the end of the 3rd set started to build drama but the world serve and venus don't usually go together. but she came through

aisha
Jul 12th, 2010, 11:54 PM
The seminal moment of the match: Venus serving for it at 5-4, 0-40 in the third. Bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. :drool: :hearts: Reminiscent of her 4th round match that year. Why can't she serve like that anymore? :bigcry:

danieln1
Jul 13th, 2010, 12:35 AM
The seminal moment of the match: Venus serving for it at 5-4, 0-40 in the third. Bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. :drool: :hearts: Reminiscent of her 4th round match that year. Why can't she serve like that anymore? :bigcry:

GOAT Rubin who defeated Serena in LA 2002 almost beat her here (7-5 in the third), shame she didnīt...

I miss Chanda a lot

aisha
Jul 13th, 2010, 12:40 AM
GOAT Rubin who defeated Serena in LA 2002 almost beat her here (7-5 in the third), shame she didnīt...

I miss Chanda a lot

She probably would have laid down for Seles in the QF anyway. :o

Sp!ffy
Jul 13th, 2010, 12:42 AM
The seminal moment of the match: Venus serving for it at 5-4, 0-40 in the third. Bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb after bomb. :drool: :hearts: Reminiscent of her 4th round match that year. Why can't she serve like that anymore? :bigcry:

I guess a lot happens in 8 years. :p

Pureracket
Jul 13th, 2010, 01:28 AM
I was in the barbershop watching that match. One of the barbers asked if Amelie was from America too. I told him that Amelie was French. I asked him why he would ask. He said because the crowd cheered louder for Amelie than it did for Venus.

That's one reason I'm glad Venus didn't always break her neck for Fed Cup.

2Black
Jul 13th, 2010, 01:42 AM
I was in the barbershop watching that match. One of the barbers asked if Amelie was from America too. I told him that Amelie was French. I asked him why he would ask. He said because the crowd cheered louder for Amelie than it did for Venus.

That's one reason I'm glad Venus didn't always break her neck for Fed Cup.

Yep, I remember this ... It was all me & my best friend talked about after this match. The crowd was so for Amelie ... And it's not about the underdog because they would have cheered wildly for Capriati had it been her against Amelie.

Marty-Dom
Jul 13th, 2010, 01:56 AM
So far (end of first set) the crowd is cheering more for Venus than Amelie.
Amelie gets nice hands after clear winners, but so does Venus- even more so.

tennnisfannn
Jul 13th, 2010, 03:56 AM
I remembe that as easily the nost disgraceful match in a long time. the crowd was plain hideous, even Navritalova had to remind people that serena and venus are american. What made it worse was around the time of the first anniversary of 9/11, Venus was dressed in American flag colours( looked more like the british one though- but the effect was there). It was a real shame! Thank God a williams claimed the title!

50Sense
Jul 13th, 2010, 04:10 AM
Venus was a bad bitch back then lmao.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jul 13th, 2010, 04:13 AM
Entertaining match. Amelie played pretty aggressively, what a pity she had to wait 4 more years to shine on the big stage.

DefyingGravity
Jul 13th, 2010, 04:15 AM
Yep, I remember this ... It was all me & my best friend talked about after this match. The crowd was so for Amelie ... And it's not about the underdog because they would have cheered wildly for Capriati had it been her against Amelie.

That match up happened either in the 4R or the QFs I think.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 13th, 2010, 05:13 AM
I loved that outfit Venus had on, but her hair was a mess :unsure:

dybbuk
Jul 13th, 2010, 05:18 AM
Kathy Rinaldi is such a terrible commentator. Her voice irritates me to no end. :sobbing: The way she says Mauresmo, with the weird drawn out stress on the O is just one of the things that annoys me.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 13th, 2010, 05:41 AM
The way Sam Gore pronounces Mauresmo is annoying too.

bandabou
Jul 13th, 2010, 07:25 AM
:lol: And people are crying when the sisters skip Fed Cup?! Really?! F*ck the American crowd.

dynamoRockstarr
Jul 13th, 2010, 07:39 AM
could u repeat that please!! ITA

bandabou
Jul 13th, 2010, 07:57 AM
underdog, underdog...yeah, but when Capriati plays Henin or Davenport plays a Kim. Then all of sudden you don't hear nothing about underdogs.

DPJ
Jul 13th, 2010, 01:56 PM
I was about to start a thread about this match. I watched it in its entirety for the first time (I remember joining the telecast eight years ago just as Venus had sealed match point). Great match. A lot of errors for sure, but good drama and nice rallies. I miss the '02 form of these two women. I miss Venus' old service motion. I miss the way Venus used to claw her way out of tough matches like these. Whoever posted earlier that she was a bad bitch back then was completely right.

mauresmofan
Jul 13th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Amelie and Venus was always a pretty good match up - both incredible athletes with wonderful games but there was a vulnerability within their games too which made for the entertainment.

DPJ
Jul 13th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Kathy Rinaldi is such a terrible commentator. Her voice irritates me to no end. :sobbing: The way she says Mauresmo, with the weird drawn out stress on the O is just one of the things that annoys me.

FORGOT TO POST ABOUT THIS. Sam Gore and Kathy Rinaldi were abysmal. Horrible. Boring beyond belief. I've never heard two people make an interesting tennis match so painful to listen to -- not even Enberg or Drysdale. They were both lacking passion yet full of overused cliches.

tennisfan5
Jul 13th, 2010, 04:14 PM
:lol: And people are crying when the sisters skip Fed Cup?! Really?! F*ck the American crowd.

I've been to the Open many times and they got a lot of support

Pureracket
Jul 13th, 2010, 05:24 PM
I've been to the Open many times and they got a lot of supportI've been there many times too. It depends on who they're playing that determines the support they get.

dynamoRockstarr
Jul 13th, 2010, 06:13 PM
Yes, i miss Vee's old service motion also.

frenchie
Jul 13th, 2010, 06:29 PM
Yes, i miss Vee's old service motion also.

Above all, I miss her BH:eek:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 13th, 2010, 06:53 PM
Above all, I miss her BH:eek:
:sobbing: at that time it was one of the most devastating shots in tennis.

Infiniti2001
Jul 13th, 2010, 07:03 PM
:sobbing: at that time it was one of the most devastating shots in tennis.

It hasn't been the same since the stomach tear and whatever is going on with her lower back/hip :shrug:

Diesel
Jul 13th, 2010, 07:10 PM
I've been to the Open many times and they got a lot of support

Conditional.

spencercarlos
Jul 13th, 2010, 08:14 PM
I've been there many times too. It depends on who they're playing that determines the support they get.
Very few players get support just about everywhere. And Venus and Serena are not one of those few players. I donīt see the big deal about it. :rolleyes:

bandabou
Jul 14th, 2010, 08:28 AM
I've been to the Open many times and they got a lot of support

Really? When she needed it the most...the supported the foreigner. :lol: Tjaaaa.....what gives?

Yonexforever
Jul 14th, 2010, 02:30 PM
I still think Amelie had the most PERFECT physique for tennis since Mrs. Aggasi!
Too bad she had such a horrible forehand.. thank you Noah, and was such a head case off grass courts.
If she played more attacking tennis she would have had more success on hard courts.
Whats interesting is Stosur who is also naturally an attacking player has risen up the singles rankings by abandoning that for a more big serve, first strike off the return style.
A
And YES Venus when you look at this tape you have to tell yourself, dam my hair was a mess!
The high pny tail didnt quite work now did it?
:)

2Black
Jul 14th, 2010, 02:59 PM
Very few players get support just about everywhere. And Venus and Serena are not one of those few players. I donīt see the big deal about it. :rolleyes:

Well it's obviously not important to American tennis because they do not get alot of support except for the young urban/suburban crowd (which includes black & white) ... And like many others & I have said, it has nothing to do with the underdog status because I have seen the crowd at the US Open go wild for some "other" Americans who were the favorites.

Last but not least, all the evidence you need is the 2001 US Open semifinal between Capriati & Venus. If the crowd was so neutral then... ENOUGH SAID

The Witch-king
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:05 PM
Yes, i miss Vee's old service motion also.

Oh so you like injury-inducing career-dangering tennis technique

Joana
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:39 PM
That was a hard fought match. Amelie played really well on hardcourt that year.

About the crowd - that was the height of the Williams domination. The Venus vs Serena final was a foregone conclusion before the tournament even started. They had played the final the previous year, and most everyone expected them to meet in Slam finals for years to come. Americans or not, that's just not interesting.

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:43 PM
That was a hard fought match. Amelie played really well on hardcourt that year.

About the crowd - that was the height of the Williams domination. The Venus vs Serena final was a foregone conclusion before the tournament even started. They had played the final the previous year, and most everyone expected them to meet in Slam finals for years to come. Americans or not, that's just not interesting.

did they complain about nav/evert 60 finals against each other


:confused:

2Black
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:44 PM
About the crowd - that was the height of the Williams domination. The Venus vs Serena final was a foregone conclusion before the tournament even started. They had played the final the previous year, and most everyone expected them to meet in Slam finals for years to come. Americans or not, that's just not interesting.

I'm tired of this same ole lame excuse. Federer dominated but people cheered him on WILDLY. Spain absolutely LOVES Nadal & cheers him like crazy. Stop feeding people this BS. When Capriati was playing lights out in 2001 after having won the Aussie & French, she could do no wrong. That crowd did everything but boo Venus in their semifinal. Thank God, Venus shut them up with her racket. So enough of this foolishness about the height of one's career.

2Black
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:49 PM
did they complain about nav/evert 60 finals against each other


:confused:

Nope because Chrissie was America's perfect little beauty queen. Serena is darkskin, bold & boldacious with a big butt. Venus may not be as bold but she doesn't go with the status quo either. She has pretty long legs but she too is darkskin. :rolleyes:

The Witch-king
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Nope because Chrissie was America's perfect little beauty queen. Serena is darkskin, bold & boldacious with a big butt. Venus may not be as bold but she doesn't go with the status quo either. She has pretty long legs but she too is darkskin. :rolleyes:

I always get the impression they like Serena a bit more than Venus.

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 03:56 PM
I'm tired of this same ole lame excuse. Federer dominated but people cheered him on WILDLY. Spain absolutely LOVES Nadal & cheers him like crazy. Stop feeding people this BS. When Capriati was playing lights out in 2001 after having won the Aussie & French, she could do no wrong. That crowd did everything but boo Venus in their semifinal. Thank God, Venus shut them up with her racket. So enough of this foolishness about the height of one's career.
Exactly. I get tired of the :bs: too because clearly the "underdog" excuse conveniently ONLY applies to the Sisters. I guess the so called "true" American tennis fans are not willing face the ugly truth but it is there for all the world to see and no one is buying their "cover" story.:tape:

Joana
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:00 PM
did they complain about nav/evert 60 finals against each other


:confused:

I wasn't aware these two are sisters. And yes, people complained.

Mixal
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:05 PM
I agree that the underdog thing is stupid in this case. However, I was also wondering do Venus and Serena draw significantly larger black crowds than the other American tennis players. I'd suppose so, but then again how is the crowd always supporting someone else? Can someone give me a better insight?

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:11 PM
I wasn't aware these two are sisters. And yes, people complained.

so because they are sisters that means what??? they aren't two different people?? what??? :confused:

how much did people complain?? bad for tennis? did they need removing from the top of the sport?? did the same crowd cheer on the underdog before they met in the finals simply because they didn't want a nav/evert final???

Joana
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:14 PM
so because they are sisters that means what??? they aren't two different people?? what??? :confused:

how much did people complain?? bad for tennis? did they need removing from the top of the sport?? did the same crowd cheer on the underdog before they met in the finals simply because they didn't want a nav/evert final???

Navratilova and Evert were very different, in all senses. Venus and Serena weren't. It took most people quite a bit of time to notice their individual personalities. They were still more reserved back then compared to now.

Navratilova has often spoken about the lack of crowd support.

The Dawntreader
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Navratilova and Evert were very different, in all senses. Venus and Serena weren't. It took most people quite a bit of time to notice their individual personalities. They were still more reserved back then compared to now.

Navratilova has often spoken about the lack of crowd support.

Very true. She commented on the fact that when Evert married the British John Lloyd in 1979(?), she received very little in the way of support, due to the fact that the British public at Wimbledon perceived Evert to be now 'one of them'.

Navratilova was hardly raking in the crowd appeal. She was an enigma to many, especially in the early part of her career, and her private revelations did nothing to endear her to those horrible, narrow minded individuals in sport, spectators or otherwise.

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 14th, 2010, 04:59 PM
Very true. She commented on the fact that when Evert married the British John Lloyd in 1979(?), she received very little in the way of support, due to the fact that the British public at Wimbledon perceived Evert to be now 'one of them'.

Navratilova was hardly raking in the crowd appeal. She was an enigma to many, especially in the early part of her career, and her private revelations did nothing to endear her to those horrible, narrow minded individuals in sport, spectators or otherwise.

ahh but that was because of a marriage to a brit...not some perceived notion that they are bad for the sport and people were getting bored of nav/evert finals

Dave.
Jul 14th, 2010, 05:08 PM
Very true. She commented on the fact that when Evert married the British John Lloyd in 1979(?), she received very little in the way of support, due to the fact that the British public at Wimbledon perceived Evert to be now 'one of them'.

Navratilova was hardly raking in the crowd appeal. She was an enigma to many, especially in the early part of her career, and her private revelations did nothing to endear her to those horrible, narrow minded individuals in sport, spectators or otherwise.

Sadly true.

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 06:33 PM
Evert and Navratilova matches were fantastic though. Two very different playing styles among fierce rivals who had a healthy amount of respect for each other, without ever losing the desire to dominate the opponent. Can you blame people for wanting to watch these two legends play each other? Especially when the alternative would be to have a Pam Shriver or a Tracy Austin in the final? :scared:

I personally enjoy Serena vs. Venus matches, but the matches are lacking that intense rivalry aspect that a Hingis vs Venus, or a Serena vs Capriati match had.

I know that people are insinuating that it's merely race that causes the US Open crowd to support white Amelie over black Venus, but I think it's slightly more complex than that. Yes, race is a factor, for sure, but I think it's just part of the whole equation. I haven't seen Sharapova getting more support than Venus/Serena when they play each other in the USA, for example. I believe it's because Sharapova is generally less likable than the sisters for more Americans, whereas Mauresmo is generally more likable than the sisters for some Americans. (Sharapova seems humorless and cold (Miami Golovin match, for example) whereas Amelie seems shy, sweet, and unassuming.) This is why Kim Clijsters got lots of support at the US Open when she played Venus, but Justine Henin received less support than Clijsters did when she played Venus at the US Open. Kim is (generally speaking) more likable than Henin.

I believe that some of Venus and Serena's statements and actions (and Richard's, too, which they aren't responsible for, but unfortunately associated with, just as Sharapova's dad certainly made it harder to like her) when they came on the scene, in addition to their openness about their religion ("I want to thank Jehovah"), contributed to them being less "generically likable" than a bubbly player like Clijsters or a non-diva like Davenport, but I also definitely believe that if they were the exact same people, but white, blond Kournikovian bombshells, they would be perceived as more likable and "relate-able", for sure, and they would not have had to prove themselves as much the real sisters have.

As an aside, my gut feeling is that Serena is more "generically likable" than Venus because Venus seems more serious and can sometimes come off as a bit humorless. I think being humorless is a big reason why Sharapova is not more beloved. Her jokes tend to fall flat and she's just not that interesting in her on-court interviews after matches at the US Open. I know her fans will disagree, and I'm not hating on Maria. I'm just giving my honest impression of how I think she is perceived.

serenafan08
Jul 14th, 2010, 07:56 PM
Navratilova and Evert were very different, in all senses. Venus and Serena weren't. It took most people quite a bit of time to notice their individual personalities. They were still more reserved back then compared to now.

Navratilova has often spoken about the lack of crowd support.

Chris said something about this. She said the reason that she and Martina had such great matches was not only because of the contrasting styles, but they each brought their own set of fans to the matches. Venus and Serena's matches are often cheered on/watched by the SAME fans; no one picks a side. I agree with her; fans create an atmosphere. People don't say, "I want Serena to win," or, "I want Venus to win." You often here people say, "I just want them to play a good match against each other." Their USO quarterfinal was so exciting, but the crowd was handcuffed as to who they were cheering for that it really took away from the match. There is always an awkward silence when the sisters play, and that's because no one wants to watch sisters beat each other. I would love to see Serena and Venus play a "rivalry" type match - half the crowd root for Serena and the other half for Venus. Make the people choose a side!

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Evert and Navratilova matches were fantastic though. Two very different playing styles among fierce rivals who had a healthy amount of respect for each other, without ever losing the desire to dominate the opponent. Can you blame people for wanting to watch these two legends play each other? Especially when the alternative would be to have a Pam Shriver or a Tracy Austin in the final? :scared:

I personally enjoy Serena vs. Venus matches, but the matches are lacking that intense rivalry aspect that a Hingis vs Venus, or a Serena vs Capriati match had.

I know that people are insinuating that it's merely race that causes the US Open crowd to support white Amelie over black Venus, but I think it's slightly more complex than that. Yes, race is a factor, for sure, but I think it's just part of the whole equation. I haven't seen Sharapova getting more support than Venus/Serena when they play each other in the USA, for example. I believe it's because Sharapova is generally less likable than the sisters for more Americans, whereas Mauresmo is generally more likable than the sisters for some Americans. (Sharapova seems humorless and cold (Miami Golovin match, for example) whereas Amelie seems shy, sweet, and unassuming.) This is why Kim Clijsters got lots of support at the US Open when she played Venus, but Justine Henin received less support than Clijsters did when she played Venus at the US Open. Kim is (generally speaking) more likable than Henin.

I believe that some of Venus and Serena's statements and actions (and Richard's, too, which they aren't responsible for, but unfortunately associated with, just as Sharapova's dad certainly made it harder to like her) when they came on the scene, in addition to their openness about their religion ("I want to thank Jehovah"), contributed to them being less "generically likable" than a bubbly player like Clijsters or a non-diva like Davenport, but I also definitely believe that if they were the exact same people, but white, blond Kournikovian bombshells, they would be perceived as more likable and "relate-able", for sure, and they would not have had to prove themselves as much the real sisters have.

As an aside, my gut feeling is that Serena is more "generically likable" than Venus because Venus seems more serious and can sometimes come off as a bit humorless. I think being humorless is a big reason why Sharapova is not more beloved. Her jokes tend to fall flat and she's just not that interesting in her on-court interviews after matches at the US Open. I know her fans will disagree, and I'm not hating on Maria. I'm just giving my honest impression of how I think she is perceived.
I have no problem with people rooting for who ever they wish but you have to admit it is HIGHLY unusual for any country where majority root against their best players for the sake of the underdog.:help: Maria is Russian (even though manufactured in America) therefore it is understandable if she doesn't recieve that much support but we are talking about born and raised in the US (even though these days a birth certificate might be required :tape:)and yet treated like foreigners. I just can't think of what the Sisters have done that is worse than any other American to deserve such treatment.:confused: As Martina rightly stated after the match, Venus would not get that support if the situation was reversed in France or any other country for that matter. Likewise there is no way fans were going to root against Justine or Kim in Belgium regardless of likeability. If Kim and her sister were black and the fans in Belgium rooted for Justine and the other players with the exception of Kim and her sister would you find it odd?

Anyway I've come to accept the situation for what it is over the years but I must admit it does leave me queasy in the gut every time I watch it because I'm not convinced that there isn't something nefarious as the base for this. I'm just happy that all this haven't affected them in an adverse way and I get to witness their full career in spite of what they had to edure.

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 08:18 PM
Chris said something about this. She said the reason that she and Martina had such great matches was not only because of the contrasting styles, but they each brought their own set of fans to the matches. Venus and Serena's matches are often cheered on/watched by the SAME fans; no one picks a side. I agree with her; fans create an atmosphere. People don't say, "I want Serena to win," or, "I want Venus to win." You often here people say, "I just want them to play a good match against each other." Their USO quarterfinal was so exciting, but the crowd was handcuffed as to who they were cheering for that it really took away from the match. There is always an awkward silence when the sisters play, and that's because no one wants to watch sisters beat each other. I would love to see Serena and Venus play a "rivalry" type match - half the crowd root for Serena and the other half for Venus. Make the people choose a side!

Great post, and I agree. :)

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:11 PM
I have no problem with people rooting for who ever they wish but you have to admit it is HIGHLY unusual for any country where majority root against their best players for the sake of the underdog.:help: Maria is Russian (even though manufactured in America) therefore it is understandable if she doesn't recieve that much support but we are talking about born and raised in the US (even though these days a birth certificate might be required:tape:)and yet treated like foreigners. I just can't think of what the Sisters have done that is worse than any other American to deserve such treatment.:confused: As Martina rightly stated after the match, Venus would not get that support if the situation was reversed in France or any other country for that matter. Likewise there is no way fans were going to root against Justine or Kim in Belgium regardless of likeability. If Kim and her sister were black and the fans in Belgium rooted for Justine and the other players with the exception of Kim and her sister would you find it odd?

Anyway I've come to accept the situation for what it is over the years but I must admit it does leave me queasy in the gut every time I watch it because I'm not convinced that there isn't something nefarious as the base for this. I'm just happy that all this haven't affected them in an adverse way and I get to witness their full career in spite of what they had to edure.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Wow, this example about Clijsters being black is actually very eye-opening!!! I had never thought about that, but now that you've made me consider it, I have to agree with you completely. I would find that shocking if a ton of fans at a Belgian tournament rooted for Amelie Mauresmo over a black Kim Clijsters. The "optics" would look really bad, and I definitely believe that my first hunch would be racism, plain and simple.

This has really opened my eyes, in all honesty, because what if black Kim and white Kim wanted to be equally bubbly, light-hearted and talkative, but black Kim experienced a lifetime of discrimination, racism, alienation and/or poverty that white Kim would never know, and that made black Kim just a little bit more guarded, private, cautious, and/or wary? And then people just started labeling her as less "likable", when really she just had very difference experience from white Kim? And then when Belgians didn't support black Kim as much, Belgians would say, "Well, it's not because she's black. It's not because we are racist. It's because she's less likable." It's sort of like chicken and egg, but at the root of it lies racism.

In all honesty, this is kind of a eureka moment for me. I've never really thought about this in this way before because before I would just think: "Hmm, Serena vs. Capriati? I'm supporting Serena. I don't like Capriati." So I would get angry when I heard people imply that race was a deciding factor in other people's decisions because, for me, I didn't think race was because I certainly wouldn't root against the sisters just because they were playing a white person. I would only do that when the sisters played Hingis and Davenport, and sometimes Clijsters, if I was liking her at that point, which usually depended on me avoiding watching her interviews because she kind of annoys me sometimes, especially after she won the US Open and started talking about how she was sick of tennis. :o

=====

P.S. :hysteric: @ the birth certificate comment.

Direwolf
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:25 PM
If Kim and her sister were black and the fans in Belgium rooted for Justine and the other players with the exception of Kim and her sister would you find it odd?

But the Clijsterses attitude is completely different from the Williams...

More americans wouldve probably liked them more had they been more humble...
Richard didnt help, made it worst...

Hingis is white...
She wasnt really well liked...

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:30 PM
Funny how many excuses people come up with for why the sisters cankt get support in their own country.

Matt01
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:34 PM
But the Clijsterses attitude is completely different from the Williams...

More americans wouldve probably liked them more had they been more humble...
Richard didnt help, made it worst...

Hingis is white...
She wasnt really well liked...


Your posts are starting to make sense :kiss:

BTW, we need a video of this great match and not have another discussion about race :yawn:

Joana
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:50 PM
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Wow, this example about Clijsters being black is actually very eye-opening!!! I had never thought about that, but now that you've made me consider it, I have to agree with you completely. I would find that shocking if a ton of fans at a Belgian tournament rooted for Amelie Mauresmo over a black Kim Clijsters. The "optics" would look really bad, and I definitely believe that my first hunch would be racism, plain and simple.


Those two really cannot be compared. Black Kim and Elke Clijsters (on the level of the Williams sisters) would probably be the best athletes Belgium ever had, in any sport. Or close to it. Do the Williams sisters have the same place in the history of American sport, really?

On the other hand, black Kim would likely be a second generation immigrant. And unfortunately, it will be a very long time before Europe becomes the melting pot like USA and Canada. So that's another factor in the equation.

Infiniti2001
Jul 14th, 2010, 09:51 PM
I have no problem with people rooting for who ever they wish but you have to admit it is HIGHLY unusual for any country where majority root against their best players for the sake of the underdog.:help: Maria is Russian (even though manufactured in America) therefore it is understandable if she doesn't recieve that much support but we are talking about born and raised in the US (even though these days a birth certificate might be required :tape:)and yet treated like foreigners. I just can't think of what the Sisters have done that is worse than any other American to deserve such treatment.:confused: As Martina rightly stated after the match, Venus would not get that support if the situation was reversed in France or any other country for that matter. Likewise there is no way fans were going to root against Justine or Kim in Belgium regardless of likeability. If Kim and her sister were black and the fans in Belgium rooted for Justine and the other players with the exception of Kim and her sister would you find it odd?

Anyway I've come to accept the situation for what it is over the years but I must admit it does leave me queasy in the gut every time I watch it because I'm not convinced that there isn't something nefarious as the base for this. I'm just happy that all this haven't affected them in an adverse way and I get to witness their full career in spite of what they had to edure.

This!! People can think what they want, but until you are in the crowd in the U.S. while either of the sisters play , you will never understand. It's fucking heartbreaking to say the least. Thank God , the Williames are a strong breed. And to those who do not care to discuss race especially in 2010 :help:

Infiniti2001
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Those two really cannot be compared. Black Kim and Elke Clijsters (on the level of the Williams sisters) would probably be the best athletes Belgium ever had, in any sport. Or close to it. Do the Williams sisters have the same place in the history of American sport, really?

On the other hand, black Kim would likely be a second generation immigrant. And unfortunately, it will be a very long time before Europe becomes the melting pot like USA and Canada. So that's another factor in the equation.

This is besides the point. The fact that they were born in this country and some crowds overwhelmingly support their foreign opponents is the problem to me . Now I am not saying that people should not support other players--it's just a bit suspect when it's just a small minority supporting them :shrug: Now I know that there are many people from around the world living in this country--but most of these people go out of their way to show the support for the player from the countries. I'm talking flags, face painting, you name it.Oh well, it's good that the Williamses were trained to handle such crowds.

2Black
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:03 PM
But the Clijsterses attitude is completely different from the Williams...

More americans wouldve probably liked them more had they been more humble...
Richard didnt help, made it worst...

Hingis is white...
She wasnt really well liked...

OK, so now it's attitude ... Man, people are throwing up excuses every 5 minutes :lol:

2Black
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:07 PM
We'll see this year...

Venus is 30 - she's the old player on tour (they normally get sympathy)
Venus hasn't done well at a slam in a year
Venus hasn't won a slam in over 2 years
Venus doesn't have an attitude problem
Venus has been a spokeswoman for women's rights
Venus has been a complete role model for young girls in America
Venus IS THE UNDERDOG

If she faces Kim or Wozniacki or Sharapova, etc at this year's US Open, I bet she still doesn't get the crowd behind her :help:

moby
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:07 PM
This has really opened my eyes, in all honesty, because what if black Kim and white Kim wanted to be equally bubbly, light-hearted and talkative, but black Kim experienced a lifetime of discrimination, racism, alienation and/or poverty that white Kim would never know, and that made black Kim just a little bit more guarded, private, cautious, and/or wary? And then people just started labeling her as less "likable", when really she just had very difference experience from white Kim? And then when Belgians didn't support black Kim as much, Belgians would say, "Well, it's not because she's black. It's not because we are racist. It's because she's less likable." It's sort of like chicken and egg, but at the root of it lies racism.Sure, but you could make that argument for just about any kind of life circumstance, or personal attribute. E.g. Justine is seen as less friendly and likeable than Kim - why? She wasn't born into wealth like Kim was (Kim's parents were sports stars in Belgium; Justine's were working-class postman and teacher - and her family was probably poorer than the Williamses). Kim's mom didn't die while she was a pre-teen. Justine had a more complicated family life. What if the differences in temperament were genetic? So what does this come down to?

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:17 PM
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Wow, this example about Clijsters being black is actually very eye-opening!!! I had never thought about that, but now that you've made me consider it, I have to agree with you completely. I would find that shocking if a ton of fans at a Belgian tournament rooted for Amelie Mauresmo over a black Kim Clijsters. The "optics" would look really bad, and I definitely believe that my first hunch would be racism, plain and simple.

This has really opened my eyes, in all honesty, because what if black Kim and white Kim wanted to be equally bubbly, light-hearted and talkative, but black Kim experienced a lifetime of discrimination, racism, alienation and/or poverty that white Kim would never know, and that made black Kim just a little bit more guarded, private, cautious, and/or wary? And then people just started labeling her as less "likable", when really she just had very difference experience from white Kim? And then when Belgians didn't support black Kim as much, Belgians would say, "Well, it's not because she's black. It's not because we are racist. It's because she's less likable." It's sort of like chicken and egg, but at the root of it lies racism.

In all honesty, this is kind of a eureka moment for me. I've never really thought about this in this way before because before I would just think: "Hmm, Serena vs. Capriati? I'm supporting Serena. I don't like Capriati." So I would get angry when I heard people imply that race was a deciding factor in other people's decisions because, for me, I didn't think race was because I certainly wouldn't root against the sisters just because they were playing a white person. I would only do that when the sisters played Hingis and Davenport, and sometimes Clijsters, if I was liking her at that point, which usually depended on me avoiding watching her interviews because she kind of annoys me sometimes, especially after she won the US Open and started talking about how she was sick of tennis. :o

=====

P.S. :hysteric: @ the birth certificate comment.
OMG your post have made it so worth while for me today. To get someone white to see things from another perspective instead of just shrugging off everything as just playing the race card is very encouraging. It is such a breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion about race without the usual name calling.:yeah: You arguments did sound plausible but when I think of other possible scinarios my doubts were not aleviated at all. The hightlighted portions illustrates that you fully get my point. Needless to say there have been other Americans male and female who have had far worse attititude on and off the courts but still somehow always manage to get majority support especially at the open.

That is why when it comes to Fed Cup and the Sisters I can understand their hesitation to participate especially without the encouragement of BJK and Zina because the know that those two are always rooting for them.

V's a star
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:23 PM
I hope someone recorded it :hearts:

Spencer wont upload the rest of the match:(

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:30 PM
Those two really cannot be compared. Black Kim and Elke Clijsters (on the level of the Williams sisters) would probably be the best athletes Belgium ever had, in any sport. Or close to it. Do the Williams sisters have the same place in the history of American sport, really?
So it is ok for them to be treated like shit because America has had other great athletes before them?:rolleyes: America treating its black sport athletes like shit is not unique because it has happen for over ceturies in baseball, football, basketball, boxing, etc therefore tennis is no exception but to try to justify it with this :bs: is just lame.:help:

Pureracket
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:32 PM
OMG your post have made it so worth while for me today. To get someone white to see things from another perspective instead of just shrugging off everything as just playing the race card is very encouraging. It is such a breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion about race without the usual name calling.:yeah: You arguments did sound plausible but when I think of other possible scinarios my doubts were not aleviated at all. The hightlighted portions illustrates that you fully get my point. Needless to say there have been other Americans male and female who have had far worse attititude on and off the courts but still somehow always manage to get majority support especially at the open.

That is why when it comes to Fed Cup and the Sisters I can understand their hesitation to participate especially without the encouragement of BJK and Zina because the know that those two are always rooting for them.Love15 is Black. He and I used to have a "thing" in the late 90's until he started trippin' about me hanging with my boys.

The Witch-king
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:41 PM
We'll see this year...

Venus is 30 - she's the old player on tour (they normally get sympathy)
Venus hasn't done well at a slam in a year
Venus hasn't won a slam in over 2 years
Venus doesn't have an attitude problem
Venus has been a spokeswoman for women's rights
Venus has been a complete role model for young girls in America
Venus IS THE UNDERDOG

If she faces Kim or Wozniacki or Sharapova, etc at this year's US Open, I bet she still doesn't get the crowd behind her :help:

Child they were screaming for Kim last year like Venus was damn Robert Mugabe and Kim was St Theresa, even though Vee was running around on one leg, just got bageled, was playing the worst tennis of her career and needed all the support she could get. Imagine if she's healthy and, god forbid, in form! :help:

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:47 PM
Love15 is Black. He and I used to have a "thing" in the late 90's until he started trippin' about me hanging with my boys.
Oh really! Sorry for the mistaken identity!:tape:

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:50 PM
Love15 is Black. He and I used to have a "thing" in the late 90's until he started trippin' about me hanging with my boys.

:lol:

I am white.

Vlover
Jul 14th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Child they were screaming for Kim last year like Venus was damn Robert Mugabe and Kim was St Theresa, even though Vee was running around on one leg, just got bageled, was playing the worst tennis of her career and needed all the support she could get. Imagine if she's healthy and, god forbid, in form! :help:
That was so sick to watch. If Vee was playing in Acapulco there is no doubt she would have pulled through that match and she is not even Mexican.:tape:

The Witch-king
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:00 PM
That was so sick to watch. If Vee was playing in Acapulco there is no doubt she would have pulled through that match and she is not even Mexican.:tape:

:spit:

sad, but true.

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:10 PM
OMG your post have made it so worth while for me today. To get someone white to see things from another perspective instead of just shrugging off everything as just playing the race card is very encouraging. It is such a breath of fresh air to have a civilized discussion about race without the usual name calling.:yeah: You arguments did sound plausible but when I think of other possible scenarios my doubts were not alleviated at all. The highlighted portions illustrates that you fully get my point. Needless to say there have been other Americans male and female who have had far worse attitude on and off the courts but still somehow always manage to get majority support especially at the open.

This is true. I will never understand all the support for Jennifer Capriati, for example. :o

========
Edit: This part was written for Sun Red Sky Blue ....

As for the whole "rooting for Kim like Venus was Robert Mugabe"

Kim is a well-known player. Well-liked. On a comeback. A new mother. A former US Open champion. It's unfair, exaggerated comments like these, implying that any white Americans rooting for Kim are really just rooting against Venus because they're racist, that cause white people to shut down and dismiss the valid parts of what you're saying. If I were at the Open, I would root for Kim over Venus because I like Kim more. There aren't many players I'd root for over Venus (Hingis, Serena, Davenport, Kim).

The Witch-king
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:15 PM
This is true. I will never understand all the support for Jennifer Capriati, for example. :o

========
Edit: This part was written for Sun Red Sky Blue ....

As for the whole "rooting for Kim like Venus was Robert Mugabe"

Kim is a well-known player. Well-liked. On a comeback. A new mother. A former US Open champion. It's unfair, exaggerated comments like these, implying that any white Americans rooting for Kim are really just rooting against Venus because they're racist, that cause white people to shut down and dismiss the valid parts of what you're saying. If I were at the Open, I would root for Kim over Venus because I like Kim more. There aren't many players I'd root for over Venus (Hingis, Serena, Davenport, Kim).
Um, what? Where did I say that?

I actually thought they were rooting against Venus because she was wearing that fugly ass neon-pink EleVen dress.:sad:

Slutiana
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:19 PM
The bad thing about that US Open fourth round was that it wasn't even as if the crowd was slightly pro-Kim, it was that they were screaming for her from the very first ball. A lot of people didn't even bother to even applaud the points that Venus won.

Pureracket
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:21 PM
:lol:

I am white.You're not making things any better by denying what we once shared, babe.

V's a star
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:22 PM
Child they were screaming for Kim last year like Venus was damn Robert Mugabe and Kim was St Theresa, even though Vee was running around on one leg, just got bageled, was playing the worst tennis of her career and needed all the support she could get. Imagine if she's healthy and, god forbid, in form! :help:

:lol: So true i mean wtf is wrong with America. I know the wrest of the world is just as messed up but we dont hate on our own :sad:

dsanders06
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:30 PM
I love how these deluded Williams obsessives conveniently ignore the fact the US Open crowd passionately supports James Blake. Grow up and stop ascribing everything you don't like in the world to racism.

brickhousesupporter
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:38 PM
I love how these deluded Williams obsessives conveniently ignore the fact the US Open crowd passionately supports James Blake. Grow up and stop ascribing everything you don't like in the world to racism.
Hey dsanders, when you are done here, can you and James Blake stop by my house and "whitewash" my fence........
http://www.118henrystreet.net/Weblog/images/SideFenceUnpainted.jpg

Human Nature
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:38 PM
I love how these deluded Williams obsessives conveniently ignore the fact the US Open crowd passionately supports James Blake. Grow up and stop ascribing everything you don't like in the world to racism.


As long as James Blake doesnt win anything ..yes he will stay the sweet black player who knows how to behave and that everybody loves..

dsanders06
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:44 PM
As long as James Blake doesnt win anything ..yes he will stay the sweet black player who knows how to behave and that everybody loves..

So you agree it's not racism? The reason the Williams sisters are unpopular is because they're anything but "sweet" - you said it yourself.

LoveFifteen
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:47 PM
:lol: So true i mean wtf is wrong with America. I know the wrest of the world is just as messed up but we dont hate on our own :sad:

So are people required to root for their compatriots over any other player? Am I hating on Jennifer Capriati when I supported Hingis when they played each other? Am I betraying my country or hating my own when I want Nadal to beat Robert Kendrick?

Or is it only nefarious when it involves the Williams?

I'll be damned before I'm forced to root for Vince Spadea or Jill Craybas. :lol:

MajesticVenus
Jul 14th, 2010, 11:53 PM
Hey everyone, just wanted to say that someone uploaded the video of the whole match on youtube (Thank you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbUrm1j0ark&feature=channel

Oh by the way, since we are discussing Venus' support at the US Open:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNJS16Kfst8

Quote: "And huh, I have to say I've never had support like this at the Open before. It's amazing."

Pureracket
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:01 AM
Hey dsanders, when you are done here, can you and James Blake stop by my house and "whitewash" my fence........
http://www.118henrystreet.net/Weblog/images/SideFenceUnpainted.jpg:haha:

Paneru
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:10 AM
Hey everyone, just wanted to say that someone uploaded the video of the whole match on youtube (Thank you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbUrm1j0ark&feature=channel

Oh by the way, since we are discussing Venus' support at the US Open:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNJS16Kfst8

Quote: "And huh, I have to say I've never had support like this at the Open before. It's amazing."

Thanks!

I was beginning to think this thread would just be yet
another b#@!& session between the same group of people.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:21 AM
Are people really basic enough to use James Blake as an example in this discussion? :lol:

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:23 AM
Are people really basic enough to use Jmes Blake s an exmple in this discussion :lol:

He's black and yet popular with the oh-so-racist US Open crowd. :confused:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:43 AM
He's black and yet popular with the oh-so-racist US Open crowd. :confused:

James is half-white with european features, has an elitist ivy-league background, and not enough game to really threaten the tennis establishment. He is the polar opposite of Venus and Serena despite being half black.

Whitehead's Boy
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:22 AM
There were so many American players (Davenport, Seles, Capriati, Williamsx2), add the fact that a lot of people worldwide attend the US Open, there is no reason to expect the crowd to go crazy behind the American player every match.

In general, it is easier for the American crowd to identify with a player like Capriati as she is the typical American girl and the media sold the Cinderella's story. As for the Williams, perhaps people have more trouble idenfying with them, and the media were more ambivalent toward them.

I just watched a couple of games from this match, just as I expected people are making a big deal out of nothing. A lot of people are cheering for Venus as well...

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:57 AM
James is half-white with european features, has an elitist ivy-league background, and not enough game to really threaten the tennis establishment. He is the polar opposite of Venus and Serena despite being half black.

Wow. If I were mixed race, I'd be ordering the mods to get you banned now. Quite what makes you think you get to decide what qualifies as "black enough" and what doesn't, I don't know.

Fact is, if this crowd were racist, they wouldn't so ardently support Blake. The fact you add in Blake's privileged upbringing and the fact he's more of an underdog proves that even you don't believe the real reason for their cool reaction to the Williamses is due to racism. End of.

The real difference is that Blake has always been extremely mannerly, while Serena, Venus in her early days and their father took obnoxiousness to new levels (I do think Venus today unfairly suffers from her early arrogance and the maintained arrogance from her sister/father).

Pureracket
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:00 AM
I'm surprised that you all have let dsanders ruin the flow of posts. His first post in this series starts out with a flame of Williams fans,( http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18156567&postcount=77 ) then he proceeds to bait. Isn't it kinda obvious what his agenda is by now?

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:03 AM
Oh, also, in a match at last year's USO in a match between Monfils and Nadal, the crowd were going absolutely CRAZY for Monfils. So much for the crowd never rooting for a black person or rooting against the favourite. :rolleyes:

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:07 AM
I'm surprised that you all have let dsanders ruin the flow of posts. His first post in this series starts out with a flame of Williams fans,( http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18156567&postcount=77 ) then he proceeds to bait. Isn't it kinda obvious what his agenda is by now?

Yes, anyone who doesn't automatically assume people who dislike the Williams sisters has an "agenda". Sorry.

Pureracket
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:07 AM
Oh, also, in a match at last year's USO in a match between Monfils and Nadal, the crowd were going absolutely CRAZY for Monfils. So much for the crowd never rooting for a black person or rooting against the favourite. :rolleyes:Again, http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18157050&postcount=90

Matt01
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:10 AM
Again, http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=18157050&postcount=90


Nothing wrong with his first post :shrug:

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:14 AM
Nothing wrong with his first post :shrug:

We all know any post which doesn't proclaim Serena Queen of the Universe is illegal :shrug:


*reported*

ROFL. For doing what...?!

Stamp Paid
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:27 AM
So are people required to root for their compatriots over any other player? Am I hating on Jennifer Capriati when I supported Hingis when they played each other? Am I betraying my country or hating my own when I want Nadal to beat Robert Kendrick?

Or is it only nefarious when it involves the Williams?

I'll be damned before I'm forced to root for Vince Spadea or Jill Craybas. :lol::haha:
And I don't want you to be forced to either :sobbing:

I don't even care anymore about the US crowd. They'll realize one day soon when they really don't have ANYONE to root for in women's tennis how lucky they were to witness Venus and Serena. The upcoming American girls are pretty shitty these day, theres no Capriati on the horizon.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:32 AM
There were so many American players (Davenport, Seles, Capriati, Williamsx2), add the fact that a lot of people worldwide attend the US Open, there is no reason to expect the crowd to go crazy behind the American player every match.

In general, it is easier for the American crowd to identify with a player like Capriati as she is the typical American girl and the media sold the Cinderella's story. As for the Williams, perhaps people have more trouble idenfying with them, and the media were more ambivalent toward them.

I just watched a couple of games from this match, just as I expected people are making a big deal out of nothing. A lot of people are cheering for Venus as well...

A teenaged drug addict the typical American girl? And Cinderella was a rags to riches story, how do Venus and Serena not have Cinderella story coming from one of the most dangerous places in the U.S.? And the media well documented their Compton upbringing so...

To add, how do you base your opinion of the crowd support by watching "a couple" of games of a match that went 6-4 in the third? :confused:

Infiniti2001
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:53 AM
A teenaged drug addict the typical American girl? And Cinderella was a rags to riches story, how do Venus and Serena not have Cinderella story coming from one of the most dangerous places in the U.S.? And the media well documented their Compton upbringing so...

To add, how do you base your opinion of the crowd support by watching "a couple" of games of a match that went 6-4 in the third? :confused:

I'm waiting for this response too :shrug:

Whitehead's Boy
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:08 AM
A teenaged drug addict the typical American girl?

Yes.

At least, it's far easier for people to identify to her than identifying to 2 black girls with beads, ugly dresses and such.

How do Venus and Serena not have Cinderella story coming from one of the most dangerous places in the U.S.? And the media well documented their Compton upbringing so...

That Cinderalla story was already old in 1997. It's not comparable to Capriati story which was more recent, and that people could relate more to.

To add, how do you base your opinion of the crowd support by watching "a couple" of games of a match that went 6-4 in the third? :confused:

I watched half of the third set, it's enough to get a feeling of the crowd.

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:11 AM
I thought this thread was about Amelia vs Venus not Venus vs Serena.

spencercarlos
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:12 AM
I'm waiting for this response too :shrug:
Yeah yeah, lets get to the main point of this.

1)Venus had ALL the crowd against her.
2)She won despite having the WHOLE crowd against her.
3)Part of the crowd is/was racist.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Could some Venus fans (and Serenaīs) stop putting Venus (and Serena) like the tennisīs "martyrs".

When you understand that their style (despite the slim differences between them) IS NOT ENJOYABLE for a lot of people, and that it has nothing to do with their race, then youīll probably get why many crowds act that way.

:wavey:

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:18 AM
But the Clijsterses attitude is completely different from the Williams...

More americans wouldve probably liked them more had they been more humble...
Richard didnt help, made it worst...

Hingis is white...
She wasnt really well liked...
Well ain't that a bitch. :lol::lol::lol:

Pureracket
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:18 AM
Yeah yeah, lets get to the main point of this.

1)Venus had ALL the crowd against her.
2)She won despite having the WHOLE crowd against her.
3)Part of the crowd is/was racist.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Could some Venus fans (and Serenaīs) stop putting Venus (and Serena) like the tennisīs "martyrs".

When you understand that their style (despite the slim differences between them) IS NOT ENJOYABLE for a lot of people, and that it has nothing to do with their race, then youīll probably get why many crowds act that way.

:wavey:How does the mere suggestion of racism make martyrs out of Venus and Serena? Martyrs die. Venus and Serena have obviously risen above that. Also, why do people like you always admantly oppose threads when racism is suggested? It's almost like you're personalizing the accusation. It's like it's hitting close to home to you.

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:27 AM
We'll see this year...

Venus is 30 - she's the old player on tour (they normally get sympathy)
Venus hasn't done well at a slam in a year
Venus hasn't won a slam in over 2 years
Venus doesn't have an attitude problem
Venus has been a spokeswoman for women's rights
Venus has been a complete role model for young girls in America
Venus IS THE UNDERDOG

If she faces Kim or Wozniacki or Sharapova, etc at this year's US Open, I bet she still doesn't get the crowd behind her :help:
you forgot a couple:

Venus got the women equal pay at Wimbledon
Venus not only spoke out but supported Peer in Qatar

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:30 AM
Love15 is Black. He and I used to have a "thing" in the late 90's until he started trippin' about me hanging with my boys.
Stop lying Pure, you know Love isn't black. :lol:

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:36 AM
This is true. I will never understand all the support for Jennifer Capriati, for example. :o

========
Edit: This part was written for Sun Red Sky Blue ....

As for the whole "rooting for Kim like Venus was Robert Mugabe"

Kim is a well-known player. Well-liked. On a comeback. A new mother. A former US Open champion. It's unfair, exaggerated comments like these, implying that any white Americans rooting for Kim are really just rooting against Venus because they're racist, that cause white people to shut down and dismiss the valid parts of what you're saying. If I were at the Open, I would root for Kim over Venus because I like Kim more. There aren't many players I'd root for over Venus (Hingis, Serena, Davenport, Kim).
Love I like you but it's statements like that that makes me say, "who gives a fvck?". I for one refuse to tip toe around trying to figure out what white folks think about black folks. If a SOB doesn't want to see racism then they want see it and this board shows that every damn day.

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:41 AM
I love how these deluded Williams obsessives conveniently ignore the fact the US Open crowd passionately supports James Blake. Grow up and stop ascribing everything you don't like in the world to racism.
If the shoe fits then wear it.

brickhousesupporter
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:45 AM
Yeah yeah, lets get to the main point of this.

1)Venus had ALL the crowd against her.
2)She won despite having the WHOLE crowd against her.
3)Part of the crowd is/was racist.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Could some Venus fans (and Serenaīs) stop putting Venus (and Serena) like the tennisīs "martyrs".

When you understand that their style (despite the slim differences between them) IS NOT ENJOYABLE for a lot of people, and that it has nothing to do with their race, then youīll probably get why many crowds act that way.

:wavey:
Are you saying that James Blake's game is more aesthetically pleasing than Venus and Serena's.?

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:49 AM
So are people required to root for their compatriots over any other player? Am I hating on Jennifer Capriati when I supported Hingis when they played each other? Am I betraying my country or hating my own when I want Nadal to beat Robert Kendrick?

Or is it only nefarious when it involves the Williams?

I'll be damned before I'm forced to root for Vince Spadea or Jill Craybas. :lol:
Damn Love, we get it. You like Hingis, Lindsay, and Kim. In one post you say you understand what we're talking about and in the next you go back to the same old crap as before. Many people have already stated that they have no problem with people rooting for their favs but find it curious that Venus and Serena are treated differently than players from other countries. My goodness you're bouncing around like a rubber ball.

homogenius
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:51 AM
It's true that sometimes they don't get as much support from the USO crowd as what some could expect but you can't determine exactly if it's caused of some rampant racism or due to how the Williams'clan attitude was perceived.The whole "us against the world" act from Richard in the early years (often playing the victim card or just saying stupid stuff), Serena seen as arrogant and full of herself etc...It change with the years but what is done is done.Plus, when you act like Serena did in several occasions at the USO (from wearing the catsuit or the hooker outfit to draw attention, to threatening a linejudge like she did last year)you can't expect to make unanimity.
Venus has/had little to do with all this, but some people must have amalgamate her with the rest of the family.

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:52 AM
Wow. If I were mixed race, I'd be ordering the mods to get you banned now. Quite what makes you think you get to decide what qualifies as "black enough" and what doesn't, I don't know.

Fact is, if this crowd were racist, they wouldn't so ardently support Blake. The fact you add in Blake's privileged upbringing and the fact he's more of an underdog proves that even you don't believe the real reason for their cool reaction to the Williamses is due to racism. End of.

The real difference is that Blake has always been extremely mannerly, while Serena, Venus in her early days and their father took obnoxiousness to new levels (I do think Venus today unfairly suffers from her early arrogance and the maintained arrogance from her sister/father).
Yeah, James stays in his place. :rolleyes:

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:54 AM
A teenaged drug addict the typical American girl? And Cinderella was a rags to riches story, how do Venus and Serena not have Cinderella story coming from one of the most dangerous places in the U.S.? And the media well documented their Compton upbringing so...

To add, how do you base your opinion of the crowd support by watching "a couple" of games of a match that went 6-4 in the third? :confused:
Don't forget she's also a thief.

tennnisfannn
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:57 AM
So are people required to root for their compatriots over any other player? Am I hating on Jennifer Capriati when I supported Hingis when they played each other? Am I betraying my country or hating my own when I want Nadal to beat Robert Kendrick?

Or is it only nefarious when it involves the Williams?

I'll be damned before I'm forced to root for Vince Spadea or Jill Craybas. :lol:
Even as a non american, this did not sit right with me. it is not s if Amelie was immensely popular in the states, she just happened to be the other top player playing Venus and so they got behind her. I cnnot immagine in any other country a local not get overwhelming support. We have had pat rafter who was loved by just about everyone, Lleyton with his very 'rough corners' still manages majority support even against a player like Federer everybody loves and adores- In the Venus case, there was definitley an element of racism happening otherwise ,why would Navritalova have needed to remind people that she was american.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:08 AM
Yes.

At least, it's far easier for people to identify to her than identifying to 2 black girls with beads, ugly dresses and such.



That Cinderalla story was already old in 1997. It's not comparable to Capriati story which was more recent, and that people could relate more to.



I watched half of the third set, it's enough to get a feeling of the crowd.

You really showed your arse with this one :worship:
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Reported :wavey:

LoveFifteen
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:14 AM
In general, it is easier for the American crowd to identify with a player like Capriati as she is the typical American girl and the media sold the Cinderella's story.

Noooooo! :hysteric: :unsure: :bolt: :sad:

:haha:
And I don't want you to be forced to either :sobbing:

I don't even care anymore about the US crowd. They'll realize one day soon when they really don't have ANYONE to root for in women's tennis how lucky they were to witness Venus and Serena. The upcoming American girls are pretty shitty these day, theres no Capriati on the horizon.

I agree completely. Women's tennis would be abysmal without the Williams at this point. We are very lucky to have them.

Love I like you but it's statements like that that makes me say, "who gives a fvck?". I for one refuse to tip toe around trying to figure out what white folks think about black folks. If a SOB doesn't want to see racism then they want see it and this board shows that every damn day.

I'm not asking people to tiptoe around white people. I am just not going to sit by and accept ridiculous statements like "the people who were cheering for Kim were really cheering against Venus as if she were Robert Mugabe". Isn't that implying that we people who cheered for Kim are really just rooting against Venus as if she were one of the most evil people on earth? I'm just saying that when people hear extreme, over-the-top rhetoric like that, they're going to shut down and completely ignore any other points being made.

Whitehead's Boy
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:41 AM
You really showed your arse with this one :worship:
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Reported :wavey:

Reported to who, Richard Williams?

Or do you have an issue with me pointing out that some crowds are colder to the Williams because they are black, which is what Williams fans have argued for a decade on this board?

tennnisfannn
Jul 15th, 2010, 07:17 AM
Don't forget she's also a thief.
Imagne if it were Serena that had shop lifted, done drugs and dated a porn star:devil:

Direwolf
Jul 15th, 2010, 07:37 AM
Hey everyone, just wanted to say that someone uploaded the video of the whole match on youtube (Thank you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbUrm1j0ark&feature=channel

Oh by the way, since we are discussing Venus' support at the US Open:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNJS16Kfst8

Quote: "And huh, I have to say I've never had support like this at the Open before. It's amazing."

Thanks
thanks
:worship::worship::worship:

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:21 PM
Noooooo! :hysteric: :unsure: :bolt: :sad:



I agree completely. Women's tennis would be abysmal without the Williams at this point. We are very lucky to have them.



I'm not asking people to tiptoe around white people. I am just not going to sit by and accept ridiculous statements like "the people who were cheering for Kim were really cheering against Venus as if she were Robert Mugabe". Isn't that implying that we people who cheered for Kim are really just rooting against Venus as if she were one of the most evil people on earth? I'm just saying that when people hear extreme, over-the-top rhetoric like that, they're going to shut down and completely ignore any other points being made.
How would you suggest that it be worded so as to not offend you? Read Whitehead's post and tell me that what we feel isn't true. Do you think he is the minority?

mykarma
Jul 15th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Reported to who, Richard Williams?

Or do you have an issue with me pointing out that some crowds are colder to the Williams because they are black, which is what Williams fans have argued for a decade on this board?
That's why I love your post because it did exactly that. :worship:

As a matter of fact I thank you for your honesty. :lol: As I've said on many occasions, eventually, the sheets slip off. Wonder why lovefifteen

Human Nature
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:08 PM
So you agree it's not racism? The reason the Williams sisters are unpopular is because they're anything but "sweet" - you said it yourself.

I agree that people love him as long as he doesnt win nothing big that could overshadow his felow white oppenents.. he is the sweet black guy who knows how to behave in a white "world" , so yes the WS are not that "sweet" for this issue .

vesanto
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Venus played awful in this match, no wonder she lost the final. However, by re-watching part of this match, I caught the highlights of Venus vs Kim US Open 2005 and I can only say WOW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHlob6dAw0E

Both players at their peaks of atheleticism, power, what intensity. Clijsters won that by pure higher stamina than Venus, those 2 first sets were incredible. Having said this I miss this Venus. In those days, there were times when she hit +60 UE but at least she tried and had an incredible aggressive ground game.

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:26 PM
Yeah, James stays in his place. :rolleyes:

So you AGAIN start screaming "racism" when there's no evidence at all. Drop the rampant paranoia - like LoveFifteen says, idiots like you who start screaming about racism ALL the time means that, when there's actual racism to be tackled, your protests will be less effective.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 15th, 2010, 02:34 PM
I love how these deluded Williams obsessives conveniently ignore the fact the US Open crowd passionately supports James Blake. Grow up and stop ascribing everything you don't like in the world to racism.

Serena and Venus aren't from Yonkers :shrug: and don't fly out all of their drunk ass college friends to their matches (although, I would love to see a crowd full of drunk ass nail technicians or fashion designers :spit::rolls::haha: )

And you said he was mannerly?!?! HA!

If only that were ACTUALLY true.

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 03:52 PM
Serena and Venus aren't from Yonkers :shrug: and don't fly out all of their drunk ass college friends to their matches (although, I would love to see a crowd full of drunk ass nail technicians or fashion designers :spit::rolls::haha: )

And you said he was mannerly?!?! HA!

If only that were ACTUALLY true.

Surely if they were racist, they wouldn't support any black person regardless of whether they were from Yonkers or whether they had "European features" or they were an underdog. And Blake is undeniably more mannerly than Serena, Richard or Venus in her early days (again, I think that these days Venus suffers by association with Serena and Richard). :shrug:

Also, what about the crowd going wild for Monfils against Nadal last year - an example of the crowd both rooting for a black person (a "fully black" person, unlike the moron who talked about Blake being "half white with European features" :rolleyes: ) and the crowd rooting against one of the top players. And to the person who implied that Blake only got support because he "knew his place" by being all quiet, Monfils was extremely exuberant on court in that match and that got the crowd even more in his corner - the difference is that Monfils is classy off court and doesn't complain about "lucky shots" or choking or being "only at 40%" when he loses, or have a parent that mocks his opponents to the media. You guys need to accept that the reason crowds all over the world are lukewarm to the sisters isn't because they're racist, it's because they think their personalities stink.

Human Nature
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:05 PM
Surely if they were racist, they wouldn't support any black person regardless of whether they were from Yonkers or whether they had "European features" or they were an underdog. And Blake is undeniably more mannerly than Serena, Richard or Venus in her early days (again, I think that these days Venus suffers by association with Serena and Richard). :shrug:

Also, what about the crowd going wild for Monfils against Nadal last year - an example of the crowd both rooting for a black person (a "fully black" person, unlike the moron who talked about Blake being "half white with European features" :rolleyes: ) and the crowd rooting against one of the top players. And to the person who implied that Blake only got support because he "knew his place" by being all quiet, Monfils was extremely exuberant on court in that match and that got the crowd even more in his corner - the difference is that Monfils is classy off court and doesn't complain about "lucky shots" or choking or being "only at 40%" when he loses, or have a parent that mocks his opponents to the media. You guys need to accept that the reason crowds all over the world are lukewarm to the sisters isn't because they're racist, it's because they think their personalities stink.



No , the difference is that Monfils hasnt won nothing big in his entire career , just like Blake he knows where is his place . The crowd can go crazy for him like they want ...he is nothing to worry about..:rolleyes:

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:35 PM
Um, I don't believe racists "pick" who are they going to hate, when and how much. If they're racists, they're racists. It's kinda scary to think you perceive them as having an agenda- they only "agenda" is to get rid of those who they hate. They don't want them around AT ALL. It's also extremely stupid comment.

Btw, how about previous players- Rubin, Garrison? Any negative experiences?

homogenius
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:46 PM
[/B]


No , the difference is that Monfils hasnt won nothing big in his entire career , just like Blake he knows where is his place . The crowd can go crazy for him like they want ...he is nothing to worry about..:rolleyes:

Makes no sense.Why would people support players if they don't want them to win ?
And weird to see that so far in this thread, the sentences I find the most insulting are the "Blake knows his place"and stuff like that and they're coming from posters complaigning about the USO crowd being racist...

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:52 PM
So you AGAIN start screaming "racism" when there's no evidence at all. Drop the rampant paranoia - like LoveFifteen says, idiots like you who start screaming about racism ALL the time means that, when there's actual racism to be tackled, your protests will be less effective.

dsanders - are you from America? Do you live here now?

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 04:57 PM
dsanders - are you from America? Do you live here now?

Nope, I was born and have always lived in Britain.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:01 PM
I hate to break it to some people this way but not only does racism still exists in tennis but it still exists in all of the world.

My point was just to show "black people weren't born yesterday." ... Don't tell me it's not race, it's their game or u just like the underdog or it's their attitude. Prove it.

When Andre Agassi was at the stage Venus is entering, he was beloved at the US Open. So here's America's chance to show its true colors. So, once again, we'll see. But I have little faith that the US Open crowd will embrace her

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:06 PM
My point was just to show "black people weren't born yesterday." ... Don't tell me it's not race, it's their game or u just like the underdog or it's their attitude. Prove it.

You're the one who's making claims with no evidence, so the onus is on YOU to prove it. I don't deny there's still racism in the world, but you can't just go around saying that people who dislike a black person must be racist. Besides, the New York crowd is one of the most liberal and enlightened in the world, is it not? And again, how do you explain their passionate support for Blake and Monfils?

When Andre Agassi was at the stage Venus is entering, he was beloved at the US Open. So here's America's chance to show its true colors. So, once again, we'll see. But I have little faith that the US Open crowd will embrace her

Agassi got popular when he started blowing kisses to the crowd and became a big philanthropist. Your analogy will only be valid if Venus starts doing those things.

The Witch-king
Jul 15th, 2010, 05:17 PM
Um, I don't believe racists "pick" who are they going to hate, when and how much. If they're racists, they're racists. It's kinda scary to think you perceive them as having an agenda- they only "agenda" is to get rid of those who they hate. They don't want them around AT ALL. It's also extremely stupid comment.

Btw, how about previous players- Rubin, Garrison? Any negative experiences?

[/B]


No , the difference is that Monfils hasnt won nothing big in his entire career , just like Blake he knows where is his place . The crowd can go crazy for him like they want ...he is nothing to worry about..:rolleyes:

YEP.

In any case, IMO the difference between the support of a confident, expressive, flamboyant dark skinned black guy and of a confident, expressive, flamboyant dark skinned woman is the same as the difference between the social implications of the words "wizard" and "witch", "dog" and "bitch" etc.
Unfortunately, (black) women are going to get the short end of the stick which ever way you look at it :shrug:.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 06:55 PM
You're the one who's making claims with no evidence, so the onus is on YOU to prove it. I don't deny there's still racism in the world, but you can't just go around saying that people who dislike a black person must be racist. Besides, the New York crowd is one of the most liberal and enlightened in the world, is it not? And again, how do you explain their passionate support for Blake and Monfils?



Agassi got popular when he started blowing kisses to the crowd and became a big philanthropist. Your analogy will only be valid if Venus starts doing those things.

There is evidence of racism throughout the history of tennis in America. That is why i asked you were you from here or ever lived here. I could start even BEFORE Althea Gibson & make my way up to Indian Wells and continue to 2010. Racism is a disease. No, it's not just carried out by one particular race but since we're talking tennis, we know who the establishment is IN AMERICA.

I have been going to the US Open for 5 years now. That is why in one of my earlier posts I said the Williams sisters are loved by urban/suburban youth of america which encompasses both black & white. Going to the open, I have heard many of the comments made about them. Same sort of stuff I'm sure Venus was talking about was heard at Indian Wells. But once again, these comments came from middle age to older americans not from the younger generation.

Gael Monfils is not a part of this discussion because he ISN'T american. As for Blake, James has NO backbone. His entire JBlock is white. He is also a politically-correct brother. Meaning, he's afraid to turn over any tables. If & when he gets married, I promise you she will be as lily white as they come. I wish James well but truth is truth. Maybe he has some african-american friends but we're not allowed to see them. Only the caucasians make the TV/media cut. He's not from urban or even middle-class Black America so the establishment doesn't see him as a threat. His mom is white so that also makes him beloved. Finally, James Blake is weak on court. Everyone knows he will crumble in the big matches anyway so cheer for him all you want.

Finally, Venus has done leaps & bounds more than blowing kisses & is a role model for young white, latino & black girls. She should be lauded by the USTA & tennis fans all over this country of what you would want your daughter to be not just in sports but in life. Is she perfect, no! But is she a woman of good character, integrity & sportsmanship? Yes, to the nth degree!

Vlover
Jul 15th, 2010, 07:18 PM
Wow. If I were mixed race, I'd be ordering the mods to get you banned now. Quite what makes you think you get to decide what qualifies as "black enough" and what doesn't, I don't know.
The real difference is that Blake has always been extremely mannerly,
I am biracial and I'm not offended because those who know their history of slavery and segregation in the US will tell you that the less melanin you have you are more accepted and tolerated than someone who is of darker skin. You are correct that perceived attitudes does affect people's reaction but still based or race people react differently. I found the attitudes of Hingis and Jennifer to be very obnoxious yet some LOVE them and hate the Sisters for portraying self confidence which they perceive to be arrogance.:tape: With these inconsistencies there has to be something else which is, based on the history of the US, blacks are not allowed to display self confidence, angry, total independence, physical strength, self motivation or validation. The word used to describe any of those is "uppity" and some white people are having a hard time dealing with the Sister because they display those traits. Yet they praise these as positives attributes for other players.

As I stated before, If the BEST tennis player in Britain happened to be black and most of the fans at Wimbledon was cheering for the opponent from another country, how would you defend that?


So are people required to root for their compatriots over any other player? Am I hating on Jennifer Capriati when I supported Hingis when they played each other?
It is quite understandable that we all have our faves and we all root for our faves regardless of who they are playing and from where but apart from my faves I'm usually neutral unless one of the persons made my shit list. I know you are not going to like this but in the case of Jennifer and Hingis, both are on my shit list I went with Jennifer as the lesser of the two evils.;) All I'm saying is I find it rather odd that the two best Americans for the past decade never seem to garner much support in America. Their attitude independent of their race doesn't explain it to me because white players with far worse attitudes are well supported in the past so I'm not convinced of this.

BTW I'm one of those who don't allow who you support get in the way of liking individuals for who they are as I do like you personally.

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 07:35 PM
2Black, I found this online: http://orvillelloyddouglas.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/the-reason-why-james-blake-is-not-a-tennis-champion/

I see this thing with Blake has been going on for a while now. Btw, GayBlackCanadian: is that someone from here :lol: This person states the same thing as some of you did, and he's obviously wrong: "The all white crowd at the Arthur Ashe stadium were happy for Blake in that match until they realized he was capable of beating the white champion Agassi and then they turned on him."

So, I checked the tiebreak in the last set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P4ybw5xD5U

Blake got as much support as Agassi. Btw, if the crowd "realized he could beat a white champion", I'm sure they would "turn against him" much before. I think anyone who thinks the crowd would be turning tables during the match is stupid. If the crowd is racist, they would NEVER root for Blake. And yet, he got a major support here.

And because his friends are white, do black people see him as a "traitor"? Just wondering...

Look, I'm also surprised and disappointed with the lack of support for WS and I think it's (at least) partially due to racism, but some of you guys are making ridiculous statements and observations.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 07:59 PM
2Black, I found this online: http://orvillelloyddouglas.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/the-reason-why-james-blake-is-not-a-tennis-champion/

I see this thing with Blake has been going on for a while now. Btw, GayBlackCanadian: is that someone from here :lol: This person states the same thing as some of you did, and he's obviously wrong: "The all white crowd at the Arthur Ashe stadium were happy for Blake in that match until they realized he was capable of beating the white champion Agassi and then they turned on him."

So, I checked the tiebreak in the last set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P4ybw5xD5U

Blake got as much support as Agassi. Btw, if the crowd "realized he could beat a white champion", I'm sure they would "turn against him" much before. I think anyone who thinks the crowd would be turning tables during the match is stupid. If the crowd is racist, they would NEVER root for Blake. And yet, he got a major support here.

And because his friends are white, do black people see him as a "traitor"? Just wondering...

Look, I'm also surprised and disappointed with the lack of support for WS and I think it's (at least) partially due to racism, but some of you guys are making ridiculous statements and observations.

Again, people are not reading my entire post OR not reading them with an understanding. I am not saying the entire crowd is racist. In fact, I haven't called anyone racist yet. I'm just making sure people are not naive enough to think racism no longer exists within the tennis establishment of America. And I've said, James poses no threat. He doesn't have a champions mind. You would never find Serena or Venus saying winning Davis cup is more important to them than winning a grand slam. Neither would you hear Federer or Nadal say this. This is what I mean in terms of James Blake. I'm sure many people cheering him just feel sad for his sorry behind :lol:

The Witch-king
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:24 PM
As I stated before, If the BEST tennis player in Britain happened to be black and most of the fans at Wimbledon was cheering for the opponent from another country, how would you defend that?


Especially when the current best British male player displays all the characteristics that supposedly justify the lack of support the sisters ("arrogance") get and has a vapid personality to boot.

You would never find Serena or Venus saying winning Davis cup is more important to them than winning a grand slam.
That would just be weird.:help:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:24 PM
I find that many people keep uttering that it's V&S's personalities that cause the lack of support in their home country. What exactly have they done that is so bad?

Someone mentioned philantrophy. Serena does all kinds of charity work including opening TWO schools in Africa for deprived children. Both sisters have worked with the Ronald McDonald house for YEARS and have taken time away from their own training to conduct tennis clinics and fund raisers. What other active players on the tour do more charity work than them? Detractors choose to ignore this in their many judgements of them.

To add, over the years several players have taken shots at them, their game, their integrity etc; But I don't recall (other than Serena taking a shot at Hingis) the sisters saying negative things about their opponents.

Their on-court behavior is very simple and fair, they rarely argue calls even before instant replay they would never throw tantrums (ala McEnroe), or take questionable injury time outs.

They have been exemplary role models for young girls and even released a book geared towards youths with tips on how to be a better person etc;

Where is the evidence to justify the crowd's lack of support is because their personlities "stink"?

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:38 PM
2Black, I found this online: http://orvillelloyddouglas.wordpress.com/2007/09/04/the-reason-why-james-blake-is-not-a-tennis-champion/

I see this thing with Blake has been going on for a while now. Btw, GayBlackCanadian: is that someone from here :lol: This person states the same thing as some of you did, and he's obviously wrong: "The all white crowd at the Arthur Ashe stadium were happy for Blake in that match until they realized he was capable of beating the white champion Agassi and then they turned on him."

So, I checked the tiebreak in the last set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P4ybw5xD5U

Blake got as much support as Agassi. Btw, if the crowd "realized he could beat a white champion", I'm sure they would "turn against him" much before. I think anyone who thinks the crowd would be turning tables during the match is stupid. If the crowd is racist, they would NEVER root for Blake. And yet, he got a major support here.

And because his friends are white, do black people see him as a "traitor"? Just wondering...

Look, I'm also surprised and disappointed with the lack of support for WS and I think it's (at least) partially due to racism, but some of you guys are making ridiculous statements and observations.

:worship:

dsanders06
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Especially when the current best British male player displays all the characteristics that supposedly justify the lack of support the sisters ("arrogance") get and has a vapid personality to boot.

Actually, for a long time, the predominantly English Wimbledon crowd WERE decidedly lukewarm towards Scottish Murray, due to his perceived poor attitude and some comments he made in 2006 about not supporting England in the World Cup. People have only now got behind him because he's our only hope. If Tim Henman were still playing and still making Grand Slam SFs, I guarantee he would get a hell of a lot more support at Wimbledon than Murray.


Where is the evidence to justify the crowd's lack of support is because their personlities "stink"?

Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Again, people are not reading my entire post OR not reading them with an understanding. I am not saying the entire crowd is racist. In fact, I haven't called anyone racist yet. I'm just making sure people are not naive enough to think racism no longer exists within the tennis establishment of America. And I've said, James poses no threat. He doesn't have a champions mind. You would never find Serena or Venus saying winning Davis cup is more important to them than winning a grand slam. Neither would you hear Federer or Nadal say this. This is what I mean in terms of James Blake. I'm sure many people cheering him just feel sad for his sorry behind :lol:

I didn't even think that, it's just easier for me to refer as "crowd" rather than racist part, some part, some people etc. I don't think many people deny racism here, it's just that people brought some other black players for comparison who clearly get more support than WS and people came up with explanations like "they are no threat" which is stupid as the underdog thing. Btw, someone said that Monfils doesn't count cause he's not American, but I thought we were discussing race here, not nationality, so he (at least) partially DOES count.

You would never find Serena or Venus saying winning Davis cup is more important to them than winning a grand slam. Neither would you hear Federer or Nadal say this.

So, what is the problem with that? Btw, I'm thinking racists would be more upset seeing them representing the USA, rather than mostly representing themselves in a Grand Slam. Don't you think so? And thank God, not every player in the world is thinking like Serena, Venus, Federer or Nadal.

And I've said, James poses no threat. He doesn't have a champions mind.

It's funny how you people decide who is a "threat" and who is not. Up-and-coming (black) player pushes Agassi to tiebreaker in 5th set and they both get the same support. Of course, racists back then couldn't have known if Blake was a choker or not or in which way his career would go. Btw, I think that any top ten player who has beaten Nadal a couple of times and won multiple tournaments is (well, now it's was) a "threat" to everyone in the US Open, especially hardcourt being his favourite surface. So, I'm asking, do you agree that him and Agassi got the same support in the end and how do you explain that if people never saw him as a threat?

I'm sorry, but V&S, they don't make them every day, but some black players have made and some do make impact on tour even without winning slams. So, to basically say that only two of them are a "threat" is ignorant, because if you're a top 5/10 player, then you're a "threat" to everyone, at least in theory. That's why I asked if Rubin & some other players had similar problems.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 08:52 PM
I find that many people keep uttering that it's V&S's personalities that cause the lack of support in their home country. What exactly have they done that is so bad?

Someone mentioned philantrophy. Serena does all kinds of charity work including opening TWO schools in Africa for deprived children. Both sisters have worked with the Ronald McDonald house for YEARS and have taken time away from their own training to conduct tennis clinics and fund raisers. What other active players on the tour do more charity work than them? Detractors choose to ignore this in their many judgements of them.

To add, over the years several players have taken shots at them, their game, their integrity etc; But I don't recall (other than Serena taking a shot at Hingis) the sisters saying negative things about their opponents.

Their on-court behavior is very simple and fair, they rarely argue calls even before instant replay they would never throw tantrums (ala McEnroe), or take questionable injury time outs.

They have been exemplary role models for young girls and even released a book geared towards youths with tips on how to be a better person etc;

Where is the evidence to justify the crowd's lack of support is because their personlities "stink"?

Great points :worship: ... And especially for Venus, since this thread is about her lack of support against Mauresmo & other players like Kim at the US Open. Venus is a true role model. She NEVER takes questionable injury time outs. She gives credit to her opponents. Not to mention her work with BJK for equal rights for women. Where is her blowup on court? I even get mad at her for not challenging calls enough. The point has been made on this thread OVER & OVER again. It's not attitude or arrogance!

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:01 PM
I didn't even think that, it's just easier for me to refer as "crowd" rather than racist part, some part, some people etc. I don't think many people deny racism here, it's just that people brought some other black players for comparison who clearly get more support than WS and people came up with explanations like "they are no threat" which is stupid as the underdog thing. Btw, someone said that Monfils doesn't count cause he's not American, but I thought we were discussing race here, not nationality, so he (at least) partially DOES count.



So, what is the problem with that? Btw, I'm thinking racists would be more upset seeing them representing the USA, rather than mostly representing themselves in a Grand Slam. Don't you think so? And thank God, not every player in the world is thinking like Serena, Venus, Federer or Nadal.



It's funny how you people decide who is a "threat" and who is not. Up-and-coming (black) player pushes Agassi to tiebreaker in 5th set and they both get the same support. Of course, racists back then couldn't have known if Blake was a choker or not or in which way his career would go. Btw, I think that any top ten player who has beaten Nadal a couple of times and won multiple tournaments is (well, now it's was) a "threat" to everyone in the US Open, especially hardcourt being his favourite surface. So, I'm asking, do you agree that him and Agassi got the same support in the end and how do you explain that if people never saw him as a threat?

I'm sorry, but V&S, they don't make them every day, but some black players have made and some do make impact on tour even without winning slams. So, to basically say that only two of them are a "threat" is ignorant, because if you're a top 5/10 player, then you're a "threat" to everyone, at least in theory. That's why I asked if Rubin & some other players had similar problems.

I'll just end our debate with this... Based on your flag, we're from different countries so just like with DSanders, I think some of the disagreement is based on mis-understanding & history of cultures. And then when you wrote "you people", I knew your responses are not what I'm talking about at all because I am one person.

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:05 PM
Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.

Well, I have to disagree with this also :lol:

This argument would be okay if some other players weren't equally arrogant or even more. Btw, I won't comment (un)attractiveness of their game. :o Even if they were brainless ballbashers (I have to admit V sometimes is), most of the times their game is on and they hit amazing winners ;)

Btw, women in general connect with the audience much less than men, which is shame as I think it would gain more popularity and attractiveness to women's game.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:06 PM
Actually, for a long time, the predominantly English Wimbledon crowd WERE decidedly lukewarm towards Scottish Murray, due to his perceived poor attitude and some comments he made in 2006 about not supporting England in the World Cup. People have only now got behind him because he's our only hope. If Tim Henman were still playing and still making Grand Slam SFs, I guarantee he would get a hell of a lot more support at Wimbledon than Murray.




Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.

So you're actually dis-crediting thousands of people's intelligence by suggesting that they are holding on to many things done/said by the Williams family over 10 years ago? To add, Serena for the most part gets more applause than Venus (especially at the US Open) so how do you explain the crowd's distaste for the sisters being based on arrogance, when Venus has been nothing but excellent in representing her sport, country, and herself for YEARS now? Who else on the women's tour has stepped up to the plate to fight for women's lib in the tennis world and do so with class, intelligence, and grace?

I'll give you that Venus did make some off-colour comments following her '05 U.S. Open exit, but that was FIVE years ago. And even at that time it was an abberation for Venus to discredit her opponent to that degree.

You have stated you "feel sorry" for Venus because she gets the un-due short end of the stick because of her sister and father. So if you're able to see that Venus isn't some villain in the tennis world, I think the spectators at the US Open should be able to distinguish this as well. Which brings me to the my main point all along, there is something more to the crowds distaste of the sisters.

volta
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:11 PM
Dsanders all over a Williams thread like a case of bad rash as usual *sigh*

stop falling for baits people :rolleyes: get a fucking grip *UGH*

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:16 PM
I'll just end our debate with this... Based on your flag, we're from different countries so just like with DSanders, I think some of the disagreement is based on mis-understanding & history of cultures. And then when you wrote "you people", I knew your responses are not what I'm talking about at all because I am one person.

It's good that it ends here, because you avoided answering all my questions and continued with your general preaching. Just so you know, I quoted your post and wrote "you people" because both you (2Black) & MJ Angel were using the "threat" argument...

I knew your responses are not what I'm talking about at all

Honey, that's what I realized even before since you were writing something totally different from what I was referring to. Btw, nice chatting :wavey:

homogenius
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:18 PM
James is half-white with european features, has an elitist ivy-league background, and not enough game to really threaten the tennis establishment. He is the polar opposite of Venus and Serena despite being half black.

Off topic (or not ?) : Based on these criterias, would you say Obama is closer to Blake than to a Serena Williams and that's partly why he got elected ?

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:19 PM
"You people" is one of the rudest ways to address people.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Dsanders all over a Williams thread like a case of bad rash as usual *sigh*

stop falling for baits people :rolleyes: get a fucking grip *UGH*

He can come in any Williams' thread. It's a message board and since I have time to write today, I'm actually enjoying the convo. We already know he's a Williams' hater. But as seen in Mixal's latest post, even the people he's bowing too are disagreeing with him. :lol:

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:27 PM
"You people" is one of the rudest ways to address people.

Ok, I apologize if anyone was offended by this, and no it's not a sarcasm.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:28 PM
It's good that it ends here, because you avoided answering all my questions and continued with your general preaching. Just so you know, I quoted your post and wrote "you people" because both you (2Black) & MJ Angel were using the "threat" argument...

Your question about Monfils was irrelevant. Monfils is black but from France. He's not relevant to this conversation. The debate is on why the Williams' Sisters (who are American) get little support at the grand slam of their own country. Some suggested it's attitude, arrogance, their not the underdogs, etc. I have put it out there that it's more than that. What else do you want me to address? Bring 'em on...

And as someone else said, if we're going to talk, keep it civil. I'm an individual, not "you people". That is rude

Human Nature
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=Mixal;18160409]It's good that it ends here, because you avoided answering all my questions and continued with your general preaching. Just so you know, I quoted your post and wrote "you people" because both you (2Black) & MJ Angel were using the "threat" argument...



Oh please ! i stick to my opinion . Its not like Monfils or Blake would break some records in GSs , not even close to win just ONE unlike serena Williams the only black player to be now in the GOAT discussion . People (white people and the establishment ) just dont like it .:rolleyes:

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 09:49 PM
Your question about Monfils was irrelevant. Monfils is black but from France. He's not relevant to this conversation. The debate is on why the Williams' Sisters (who are American) get little support at the grand slam of their own country. Some suggested it's attitude, arrogance, their not the underdogs, etc. I have put it out there that it's more than that. What else do you want me to address? Bring 'em on...

:bigcry: Let's not start this again, but I'll just try to clear these things: you see, I didn't ask anything about Monfils (it was dsanders), qoute me if I did. I just stated this:

Btw, someone said that Monfils doesn't count cause he's not American, but I thought we were discussing race here, not nationality, so he (at least) partially DOES count.

I stated my opinion about the whole topic already:

Look, I'm also surprised and disappointed with the lack of support for WS and I think it's (at least) partially due to racism, but some of you guys are making ridiculous statements and observations.

I just wasn't agreeing with you and MJ about "threat" thing and I brought Blake-Agassi match and their equal support. But please, let's not go further.



And as someone else said, if we're going to talk, keep it civil. I'm an individual, not "you people". That is rude

I already told you why I wrote "you people" and I apologized. Btw, if you were offended, you could've had balls to tell me this, and not jump on me after someone else did.

Oh please ! i stick to my opinion. Its not like Monfils or Blake would break some records in GSs , not even close to win just ONE unlike Serena Williams the only black player to be now in the GOAT discussion . People (white people and the establishment ) just dont like it .:rolleyes:

As I stick to mine. You didn't know if Blake was going to win any slams or not when he appeared, the same with Monfils.

2Black
Jul 15th, 2010, 11:03 PM
Right Mixal, you re-iterated the point on Monfils, so I addressed it. As for me, addressing the "you people" statement. I did in my own way before that person told you it was rude.

These conversations unfortunately never really amount to anything because everyone wants to WIN. In alot of situations BOTH or VARIOUS points of view could be true.

Yes, there are black, whiteand latino people that love Venus & Serena.
Yes, there are people that root against them because they are black & maybe they can't always say it like they want because the culture of our climate has changed. BUT at a sporting event they can freely cheer against them.
I remember when Serena told the umpire in Miami that the guy was heckling her. What struck me is that she went further on to say "this is not the 60s & I'm not going to tolerate it." For so long, tennis was an elitist sport. A country club sport. Blacks weren't allowed in. THe fact that these young ladies can come into a sport. Dominate it. Do it their way ... etc etc etc (Don't think I need to say more)

And finally for the nth time, I'll say that 2001 Capriati-Venus match spoke VOLUMES. Capriati had already won 2 majors that year. Venus was not the favorite. In fact she may have ben the underdog but let's just call it even. 98% of that crowd was for Capriati. If we've moved so far beyond race, we should have been cheering both young ladies equally. Not howling when Venus made an error.

Mixal
Jul 15th, 2010, 11:19 PM
2Black:

I agree and I'm aware of everything you said, we only disagreed about other black (male) players and the reasons why they get more support compared to the WS. I gave my arguments against the clam that "these players aren't a threat". I hope you completely understood what I meant...

spencercarlos
Jul 15th, 2010, 11:25 PM
And finally for the nth time, I'll say that 2001 Capriati-Venus match spoke VOLUMES. Capriati had already won 2 majors that year. Venus was not the favorite. In fact she may have ben the underdog but let's just call it even. 98% of that crowd was for Capriati. If we've moved so far beyond race, we should have been cheering both young ladies equally. Not howling when Venus made an error.
Capriati at the time was yet (and never) beat Venus Williams, Venus had just won Wimbledon, and was the defending Usopen Champion. She also enjoyed a strong hard court season with victories over some Jennifer Capriati in the New Haven SFs in straight sets. Who are you trying to fool?.

Venus was the favorite for that match and by tons IMO. Capriati was the story of the year with her two slams wins but Venus was on a roll winning Wimbledon and virtually all of the events heading into the Usopen, and finally the Usopen itself.

Matt01
Jul 16th, 2010, 12:43 AM
Oh please ! i stick to my opinion . Its not like Monfils or Blake would break some records in GSs , not even close to win just ONE unlike serena Williams the only black player to be now in the GOAT discussion . People (white people and the establishment ) just dont like it .:rolleyes:


Apart from that I disagree with Serena even being in the discussion about being GOAT (but let's pretend she is...), how does that explain the non-support Venus is often getting?

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 01:36 AM
So you AGAIN start screaming "racism" when there's no evidence at all. Drop the rampant paranoia - like LoveFifteen says, idiots like you who start screaming about racism ALL the time means that, when there's actual racism to be tackled, your protests will be less effective.
Are you scizho? You just said that a shoplifting, drug addict, white girl,(criminal) was more of an American Girl than two black girls because the black girls wore beads and ugly dresses. :shrug: You then went on to respond to someone that you'd made their point that people were racist now you've decided to jump back over the fence AGAIN. :eek: Yeah right.

dsanders06
Jul 16th, 2010, 01:38 AM
Actually, for a long time, the predominantly English Wimbledon crowd WERE decidedly lukewarm towards Scottish Murray, due to his perceived poor attitude and some comments he made in 2006 about not supporting England in the World Cup. People have only now got behind him because he's our only hope. If Tim Henman were still playing and still making Grand Slam SFs, I guarantee he would get a hell of a lot more support at Wimbledon than Murray.




Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.

Are you scizho? You just said that a shoplifting, drug addict, white girl,(criminal) was more of an American Girl than two black girls because the black girls wore beads and ugly dresses. :shrug: You then went on to respond to someone that you'd made their point that people were racist now you've decided to jump back over the fence AGAIN. :eek: Yeah right.

Are YOU schizo? I never even made any mention of Capriati, so I've got no idea what the hell you're one about.

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 01:41 AM
Makes no sense.Why would people support players if they don't want them to win ?
And weird to see that so far in this thread, the sentences I find the most insulting are the "Blake knows his place"and stuff like that and they're coming from posters complaigning about the USO crowd being racist...
It's also weird that people totally ignore the post that said people are responding to. :o

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 01:47 AM
I am biracial and I'm not offended because those who know their history of slavery and segregation in the US will tell you that the less melanin you have you are more accepted and tolerated than someone who is of darker skin. You are correct that perceived attitudes does affect people's reaction but still based or race people react differently. I found the attitudes of Hingis and Jennifer to be very obnoxious yet some LOVE them and hate the Sisters for portraying self confidence which they perceive to be arrogance.:tape: With these inconsistencies there has to be something else which is, based on the history of the US, blacks are not allowed to display self confidence, angry, total independence, physical strength, self motivation or validation. The word used to describe any of those is "uppity" and some white people are having a hard time dealing with the Sister because they display those traits. Yet they praise these as positives attributes for other players.

As I stated before, If the BEST tennis player in Britain happened to be black and most of the fans at Wimbledon was cheering for the opponent from another country, how would you defend that?



It is quite understandable that we all have our faves and we all root for our faves regardless of who they are playing and from where but apart from my faves I'm usually neutral unless one of the persons made my shit list. I know you are not going to like this but in the case of Jennifer and Hingis, both are on my shit list I went with Jennifer as the lesser of the two evils.;) All I'm saying is I find it rather odd that the two best Americans for the past decade never seem to garner much support in America. Their attitude independent of their race doesn't explain it to me because white players with far worse attitudes are well supported in the past so I'm not convinced of this.

BTW I'm one of those who don't allow who you support get in the way of liking individuals for who they are as I do like you personally.
Love is a nice person and learns something from these debates now dsanders is another story.

Human Nature
Jul 16th, 2010, 03:01 AM
Mixal

"As I stick to mine. You didn't know if Blake was going to win any slams or not when he appeared, the same with Monfils.[/QUOTE]"




What i knew is that he had NO slams in his bag and wasnt about to break records even if he would have won ONE .

So people can support him like they want as long as he is not a threat ..

Human Nature
Jul 16th, 2010, 03:03 AM
Apart from that I disagree with Serena even being in the discussion about being GOAT (but let's pretend she is...), how does that explain the non-support Venus is often getting?

You can disagree ..fact is that she is in the discussion...

As for Venus ..then your friend dansder explains it very well...

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 03:21 AM
Actually, for a long time, the predominantly English Wimbledon crowd WERE decidedly lukewarm towards Scottish Murray, due to his perceived poor attitude and some comments he made in 2006 about not supporting England in the World Cup. People have only now got behind him because he's our only hope. If Tim Henman were still playing and still making Grand Slam SFs, I guarantee he would get a hell of a lot more support at Wimbledon than Murray.




Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.
Take a look in the mirror but hurry before it breaks.

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 03:26 AM
Off topic (or not ?) : Based on these criterias, would you say Obama is closer to Blake than to a Serena Williams and that's partly why he got elected ?
WTF :eek:

2Black
Jul 16th, 2010, 03:37 AM
Capriati at the time was yet (and never) beat Venus Williams, Venus had just won Wimbledon, and was the defending Usopen Champion. She also enjoyed a strong hard court season with victories over some Jennifer Capriati in the New Haven SFs in straight sets. Who are you trying to fool?.

Venus was the favorite for that match and by tons IMO. Capriati was the story of the year with her two slams wins but Venus was on a roll winning Wimbledon and virtually all of the events heading into the Usopen, and finally the Usopen itself.

OK, I'll bite ... Let's say Venus was the favorite. I disagree & think it was even. That still doesn't negate the rest of my post. Which you said absolutely nothing about. But I'll go put in that match now because that jam-packed stadium got awfully quiet once Venus came back from 1-4 down in the 1st to only allow Capriati 2 more games the entire match.

The Witch-king
Jul 16th, 2010, 04:47 PM
Off topic (or not ?) : Based on these criterias, would you say Obama is closer to Blake than to a Serena Williams and that's partly why he got elected ?

Relevance? :rolleyes:

dsanders06
Jul 16th, 2010, 04:53 PM
Relevance? :rolleyes:

Some idiot said Blake wasn't "properly black" because he has "European features".


OK, I'll bite ... Let's say Venus was the favorite. I disagree & think it was even. That still doesn't negate the rest of my post. Which you said absolutely nothing about. But I'll go put in that match now because that jam-packed stadium got awfully quiet once Venus came back from 1-4 down in the 1st to only allow Capriati 2 more games the entire match.

Again... it's because Venus was painfully arrogant in those days, whereas people admired Capriati for fighting her demons. And yes, Capriati could be a sore loser at times, but she didn't go around saying that when she played her best no-one could beat her, and go around with a "woe is me, the world is against me" attitude, accusing crowds of discrimination when there was no evidence. There's the reason.

But you're clearly not going to listen to reason. You've been given video evidence of a black American player getting raucous support even when he was on the verge of beating crowd favourite Agassi... if you're going to ignore that then there's no point debating with someone so absurdly biased. Go on with your paranoia if you want to.

Stamp Paid
Jul 16th, 2010, 04:58 PM
Off topic (or not ?) : Based on these criterias, would you say Obama is closer to Blake than to a Serena Williams and that's partly why he got elected ?O/T, but I agree. That was part of his "relatability" and electability.

dsanders06
Jul 16th, 2010, 05:01 PM
O/T, but I agree. That was part of his "relatability" and electability.

I'm pretty sure surveys showed that more than 50% of Americans believed both Obama's parents were black.

The Witch-king
Jul 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Some idiot said Blake wasn't "properly black" because he has "European features".



As if being voted into presidency = support at the US Open.:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure surveys showed that more than 50% of Americans believed both Obama's parents were black.

Pretty sure they are referring to the tone of his skin not who his parents are. :shrug:

Indytennis
Jul 16th, 2010, 05:48 PM
Wow- this thread is a mess! I thought this was suppose to be about a tennis match.

We have more talk about Venus, Serena, James Blake, Monfils, even Obama than we do about Amelie...so I just need to show the love for my girl and bring her back into the conversation.
Anyways, decent match, doesnt really get good until the 3rd set. Wish Amelie could have converted one of those 3 break pts at 4-5 down.
And yes I am an American who would have been loudly cheering for Amelie over any American player that day had I been there.

mykarma
Jul 16th, 2010, 06:58 PM
I'm pretty sure surveys showed that more than 50% of Americans believed both Obama's parents were black.
Oh my. :lol:

spencercarlos
Jul 16th, 2010, 08:13 PM
OK, I'll bite ... Let's say Venus was the favorite. I disagree & think it was even. That still doesn't negate the rest of my post. Which you said absolutely nothing about. But I'll go put in that match now because that jam-packed stadium got awfully quiet once Venus came back from 1-4 down in the 1st to only allow Capriati 2 more games the entire match.
Crowd pretty much was rootng for the underdog.

Capriati was winning at first, when the match got even 4-4 and then Venus ranway with the match, the crowd probably got bored because they knew Venus was a lock...
Anyway its not a secret that Capriati has always been loved universally much more in the US than Venus.

Lucemferre
Jul 16th, 2010, 08:53 PM
Actually, for a long time, the predominantly English Wimbledon crowd WERE decidedly lukewarm towards Scottish Murray, due to his perceived poor attitude and some comments he made in 2006 about not supporting England in the World Cup. People have only now got behind him because he's our only hope. If Tim Henman were still playing and still making Grand Slam SFs, I guarantee he would get a hell of a lot more support at Wimbledon than Murray.




Are you kidding? Did you miss pretty much every single one of Serena's press conferences in her whole career? Most of Venus's press conferences until about 2005? All of Richard's assinine comments to the media? If players are going to go around insisting they're the best and attributing their losses to their own poor play and never giving credit and having parents take cheap shots at their opponents, they're never going to be popular with any crowd in the world, no matter what their skin colour, gender or sexuality is. That's the difference between Serena and other American black players (Blake) and other great champions in the sport (Federer, Nadal, Clijsters etc.) - they all have great personalities whereas Serena has anything but.

*Again, I do think Venus suffers from her earlier arrogance and simply by virtue of her association with Serena and Richard, so I do feel kind of sorry for her in that regard. However, even though I think she's a good person, I do find it kind of hard to root for her due to her fugly/brainless game (I actually much prefer to watch Serena's slightly more thoughtful game despite her horrid personality) and her lack of outwards intensity on court which doesn't easily get the crowd fired up in her favour like, say, Nadal can do.

Serena has more personality than robotic clijsters federer and dull as a wet toilet paper nadal combined.If people would care seeing her personality they would like her more but that's not what they want. All they want to see is an aggressive big black woman beating up on weaker players.Stop kidding yourself. You gave nadal's intensity as a good example, Why didn't you say Serena instead? That's what I thought.You see what you want to see.