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View Full Version : Anyone read "Venus & Serena" by Dave Rineberg?


Libertango
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:13 PM
I randomly saw this at my local library - I'd never even heard of it before! Dave Rineberg was their hitting partner/coach for seven years from the early nineties; did it get much publicity/acclaim when it was released? I'm about 3/4 of the way through now. For those who've read it, what did you think of it? I'm finding it a rather interesting read so far.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:19 PM
Would you mind sharing some of the interesting things you found?

Anything intringuing or unexpected?

Libertango
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:39 PM
Sorry if this isn't news at all, but I didn't know lots of stuff in this book. Just a few things which interested me:

Rineberg received death threats upon coaching the WS - when the news was made public, he received several phonecalls and letters warning him to keep away etc. Apparently Venus, Serena and the rest of the family all received numerous death threats at the start of their careers. :eek:

Richard wanted Venus to be a total serve-volleyer at the start. Whenever she was in trouble, he told her to just go to the net and win the point any way possible from there.

After their first meeting, Hingis picked up loads of beads which had fallen from Venus' head during the match - at the press conference Martina was asked what she thought of Venus and her claim she was going to be number one in the world, and Martina gave out the beads to the reporters, laughed, and said she thought it was ridiculous. :lol: (I guess at the time it did seem far-fetched)

Venus seemed to be the far more emotional one of them when they were much younger; she seems to be much quicker with her mouth, a bit more "cheeky" than Serena, and on-court, had the reputation to those who knew her as being more demonstrative with her feelings than Serena. :eek:

There's other things, but the general feeling I get is that Richard Williams does not come out of this book well AT ALL; it really sheds a bad light on him. To be honest, the guy sounds like a mad nightmare. However, Rineberg clearly has alot of time for Venus, Serena and Oracene, whom he is clearly very fond of.

It's not exactly a brilliantly written book, but pretty cool to read for a WTA fan.

vswfan
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:41 PM
I read it. It seems like Richard took control of the sisters anytime anywhere.
Its really amazing that such a family have never had problem like Lucic family or Pierce family.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:49 PM
Rineberg received death threats upon coaching the WS - when the news was made public, he received several phonecalls and letters warning him to keep away etc. Apparently Venus, Serena and the rest of the family all received numerous death threats at the start of their careers (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=414071#). :eek:



Was there any hints on the origin of the the death threats?

Any similarities between anyof the known African-American rising to threathen the white establishment?

Example: Hank Aaron, Tiger Woods, Mohamed Ali, Jack John Johnson, Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis, etc...

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:53 PM
At the time, Hingis was on top of the world and found the idea of anyone challenging her laughable.
If necessary, she will deride them the competition.

The things is, she got away with it in the press most of the time, because she could back it up on the court.
That is, until the WS came on the scene. And Serena took her on squarelly, verbally and on the court.

After their first meeting, Hingis picked up loads of beads which had fallen from Venus' head during the match - at the press conference Martina was asked what she thought of Venus and her claim she was going to be number one in the world, and Martina gave out the beads to the reporters, laughed, and said she thought it was ridiculous. :lol: (I guess at the time it did seem far-fetched)

The Witch-king
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:06 PM
An example of Richard's behaviour plz?

Libertango
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Was there any hints on the origin of the the death threats?.

Not really; they were usually made to his phone, by a voice he didn't recognize, but obviously someone who'd managed to get hold of his cell phone number - not hard though, considering he was a well-known coach attached to a few clubs. Not much to go on really.

Just nearing the end now; the way they parted is really sad and a bit :eek: IMO. Richard asks him to be available for the USO 99 as a hitting coach, but then just cuts off all contact; doesn't formally tell him the partnership is over, just ignores him; when Rineberg is at the USO, he goes to cognratulate Venus on winning one of her early rounds (remember this is someone she's known very closely for seven years and is considered a friend, not just a coach, by all accounts) and she barely acknowledges him; only to then, as she's leaving, turn round and smile, and, in Rineberg's words, imply she just can't speak to him right now and that she's sorry; clearly she'd been warned about speaking to Rineberg by Richard, and found the whole situation very painful (earlier, in 96 I think, Richard scolded Venus for saying Rineberg was her coach, and that she was to only say he or Oracene coached her) And that's it; a few days later, he gets a phonecall saying he needs to "stay away from Venus and Serena, or leave in a bodybag." :eek:

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:36 PM
Not really; they were usually made to his phone, by a voice he didn't recognize, but obviously someone who'd managed to get hold of his cell phone number - not hard though, considering he was a well-known coach attached to a few clubs. Not much to go on really.

Just nearing the end now; the way they parted is really sad and a bit :eek: IMO. Richard asks him to be available for the USO 99 as a hitting coach, but then just cuts off all contact; doesn't formally tell him the partnership is over, just ignores him; when Rineberg is at the USO, he goes to cognratulate Venus on winning one of her early rounds (remember this is someone she's known very closely for seven years and is considered a friend, not just a coach, by all accounts) and she barely acknowledges him; only to then, as she's leaving, turn round and smile, and, in Rineberg's words, imply she just can't speak to him right now and that she's sorry; clearly she'd been warned about speaking to Rineberg by Richard, and found the whole situation very painful (earlier, in 96 I think, Richard scolded Venus for saying Rineberg was her coach, and that she was to only say he or Oracene coached her) And that's it; a few days later, he gets a phonecall saying he needs to "stay away from Venus and Serena, or leave in a bodybag." :eek:
What did Rineberg expect after the way he ended the relationship?

Richard asking him to help out at USO '99 and his reponse to cut off the the raltionship, w/o having the proefessional courtesy to notify Richard.
This the USO, the most important for Venus and Serena in their young careers.

This book must be read in the context that one the antagonist wrote it.
So he is getting his point accross, maybe seeking attention. I have never heard of him.
I know Rick Macy was involved and seems to have had amicable professional relationship with Richard.

Libertango
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:39 PM
^Sorry, I think I must have written it wrong; it was Richard who abruptly cut off all contact without any kind of word or warning. Rineberg was constantly trying to get in touch without any luck; eventually of course, he got the message.

Still, you're right; I always read books objectively, remembering this is only one "interpretation" and that personal feelings can sometimes get in the way of the facts.

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:42 PM
There's something else Rineberg wrote about Richard that I found interesting, but I'll wait until Libertango finishes the book before I mention it here.

Vartan
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:47 PM
This seems to be like a scene out of a drama movie.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:50 PM
^Sorry, I think I must have written it wrong; it was Richard who abruptly cut off all contact without any kind of word or warning. Rineberg was constantly trying to get in touch without any luck; eventually of course, he got the message..
OK.
Maybe someone needs to ask Richard what were the circumstances behind the abrupt termination of the working relationship.

Can you shed some light on this?
At the USO'99, did Richard ask Rineberg to be hitting coach or Rineberg asked Richard to stay on as hitting coach ?

^Still, you're right; I always read books objectively, remembering this is only one "interpretation" and that personal feelings can sometimes get in the way of the facts.
When did the book come out?
I wish I could hear what Richard reaction is.

Pureracket
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:51 PM
There's something else Rineberg wrote about Richard that I found interesting, but I'll wait until Libertango finishes the book before I mention it here.Write "Spoiler Alert" above your post. Tell us, D.

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Write "Spoiler Alert" above your post. Tell us, D.
Rineberg wrote that while he was sure that Williams-Williams matches weren't fixed, he wouldn't have put it past Richard to do it.

FreakinFabulous
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:04 PM
I've seen/ heard of this book before, but didn't think anything of it. Interesting...I might go check it out.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:06 PM
Rineberg wrote that while he was sure that Williams-Williams matches weren't fixed, he wouldn't have put it past Richard to do it.
I think this Rineberg is trying to be provocative.

He does have a personal bone to pick with Richard.
And if he has to smear Venus and Serena to reach his goals, so be it.

Why bring this up if you don't beleive it happened?
When you know it will give amunition to those who beleive in the conspiracy.
I can see their argument now: "Rineberg has not been involved with the Richard camp since 1999, he can't possibly know if it did not happen. He himself hinted that Richard is capable of suggesting such a thing"

Vartan
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:09 PM
I think this Rineberg is trying to be provocative.

He does have a personal bone to pick with Richard.
And if he has to smear Venus and Serena to reach his goals, so be it.

The OP said that he wrote good things about Venus & Serena, I think you are being too defensive for no reason.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:17 PM
The OP said that he wrote good things about Venus & Serena, I think you are being too defensive for no reason.
I got that and do not deny it.

What I am saying is that the animosity toward Richard is so great, that Rineberg is willing to throw away the good memories adn experiences he had with Venus and Serena just to get even with Richard.

I don't think that is being defensive.

Pureracket
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:21 PM
Thanks, D.

Vartan
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:21 PM
But how is it smearing Venus and Serena, then?

Keegan
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:26 PM
But how is it smearing Venus and Serena, then?

Because he's saying that they would fix matches to keep Richard happy or whatever and as we all know, match fixing is illegal in tennis

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:26 PM
But how is it smearing Venus and Serena, then?
By implying that he would not trust Richard when it comes to fixing the matches between Venus and Serena.

Here is what I posted above about what the people who believe in this conspiracy would say after reading this book.

I can see their argument now: "Rineberg has not been involved with the Richard camp since 1999, he can't possibly know if it did not happen. He himself hinted that Richard is capable of suggesting such a thing"

Vartan
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:40 PM
By implying that he would not trust Richard when it comes to fixing the matches between Venus and Serena.

Here is what I posted above about what the people who believe in this conspiracy would say after reading this book.

Misunderstanding on my part.

Slutiana
Jul 5th, 2010, 06:02 PM
Yes, i've read it. It's one of my favourite tennis books because it is very insightful and interesting, even if there is a lot of bias. I don't doubt that some of what he says about Richard is true.

And he is respectful about Richard throughout the book though clearly did have huge problems with him. But generally I think he felt that Richard was a great man to be around at the beginning and he was always welcoming, told great stories etc. etc. but as the sisters became more and more famous and well-known, he became much more egotistical.

Some of the stories about Richard did show him in a bad light. For example one where they were practicing with Venus and there was a huge power struggle between one of the academy coaches and Richard and as he went to show Venus how to hit the ball, he hit Venus with the racket by accident.

But he also talks about how well Richard dealt with the girls - how he always tried to keep it fun and a positive atmosphere. Whenever he felt practises were getting too intense he would take them out of it for a week and they would go to disneyworld.

Definitely a really interesting read for any Williams fan or WTA fan in general. I haven't read it in ages though.

tennisbum79
Jul 5th, 2010, 06:09 PM
Yes, i've read it. It's one of my favourite tennis books because it is very insightful and interesting, even if there is a lot of bias. I don't doubt that some of what he says about Richard is true.

And he is respectful about Richard throughout the book though clearly did have huge problems with him. But generally I think he felt that Richard was a great man to be around at the beginning and he was always welcoming, told great stories etc. etc. but as the sisters became more and more famous and well-known, he became much more egotistical.

Some of the stories about Richard did show him in a bad light. For example one where they were practicing with Venus and there was a huge power struggle between one of the academy coaches and Richard and as he went to show Venus how to hit the ball, he hit Venus with the racket by accident.

But he also talks about how well Richard dealt with the girls - how he always tried to keep it fun and a positive atmosphere. Whenever he felt practises were getting too intense he would take them out of it for a week and they would go to disneyworld.

Definitely a really interesting read for any Williams fan or WTA fan in general. I haven't read it in ages though.
Thanks for your perspective. It is helpful.

But, still I can help that feel it was a low blow for suggesting by Richard would not necessarily reject match fixing idea.

Having been removed from the Williams camp since 1999, how does he feel this would reflect on Venus and Serena, who he said he had affection for.

Libertango
Jul 5th, 2010, 06:14 PM
Nearly finished now; it has been a quick read, I must say!

I agree with Slutiana's point; I really don't think Rineberg hates Richard or anything, it's just, on occasion, Richard has clearly been a difficult person to deal with; and let's be honest, would anyone be surprised? The way Rineberg writes it, he actually is/has been very fond of Richard; the first chapter is mainly about how much he likes Richard, and how refreshing he is for a tennis parent. But of course there are also the times when Richard clearly treats Rineberg badly and doesn't act in a very aimiable manner, until the end, when he seems to have had enough of it. Shame it had to end that way really. But yea, it's not just one long Richard Williams bashing bio.

BrianII
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:39 PM
I've read the book too, actually I own it ,bought it several years back a lot of anecdotes about his early years with the sisters found the story about the garorade in his usual water bottle very funny and typically venus ...I think one has to read the book before attempting any kind of rationalization about the authors motives because although the booking is many times an unfalttering portrayal of richards , it is often an incredibly flattering portrayal of the girls themselves particularly venus and I'm not talking as a tennis player but more as a human being...when today you read things like how venus stood up for shahar peer etc you know that its got nothing to do with PR Venus has been like that since she was little.

jrollaneres25
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:10 PM
Yea. I read it back in 2007. Great insight! And it really changed my perspective on the girls since then. Venus has been and will be a different person because of it. Serena didn't have to deal with a lot that Venus dealt with, and still deals with till this day. So yea, I'm very proud of Venus and I know what she's had to endure, and sometimes I've forgotten how much she's had to got through to get to where she is now.

GrosjeantheGreat
Jul 6th, 2010, 12:26 AM
Was there any hints on the origin of the the death threats?

Any similarities between anyof the known African-American rising to threathen the white establishment?

Example: Hank Aaron, Tiger Woods, Mohamed Ali, Jack John Johnson, Jackie Robinson, Joe Louis, etc...
The death threats were traced to Irina Spirlea's cell phone.
Richard asks him to be available for the USO 99 as a hitting coach, but then just cuts off all contact; doesn't formally tell him the partnership is over, just ignores him; when Rineberg is at the USO, he goes to cognratulate Venus on winning one of her early rounds (remember this is someone she's known very closely for seven years and is considered a friend, not just a coach, by all accounts) and she barely acknowledges him; only to then, as she's leaving, turn round and smile, and, in Rineberg's words, imply she just can't speak to him right now and that she's sorry; clearly she'd been warned about speaking to Rineberg by Richard, and found the whole situation very painful (earlier, in 96 I think, Richard scolded Venus for saying Rineberg was her coach, and that she was to only say he or Oracene coached her) And that's it; a few days later, he gets a phonecall saying he needs to "stay away from Venus and Serena, or leave in a bodybag." :eek:
Totally believable.:rolleyes:

Serenus Christ
Jul 6th, 2010, 03:58 AM
The death threats were traced to Irina Spirlea's cell phone.


:tape:

Anyway I read this book ages ago! Me thinks that he got a tad angry that we was fired when it seemed he was doing a good job (which he was). Quite suprising though for someone who has been that close to the Williams family to be shut out like that, they usually keep everything together etc.
Unless he did something wrong that he didn't mention in the book..

Slutiana
Jul 6th, 2010, 04:26 AM
Totally believable.:rolleyes:
:lol: I don't think he was implying that Richard had anything to do with it.

kiwifan
Jul 6th, 2010, 05:08 AM
To this day, I still don't see what would be the point of fixing a Venus v Serena match...there wouldn't be all that great odds in betting the "underdog"...all the money goes to the family...and if it isn't the final it would be in the family's best interest for who ever is currently playing better to continue to play since she's the one most likely to continue to win.

But I never thought match fixing was based on anything other than bullshit and hate of Richard Williams.

:shrug:

StephenUK
Jul 6th, 2010, 10:45 AM
To this day, I still don't see what would be the point of fixing a Venus v Serena match...there wouldn't be all that great odds in betting the "underdog"...all the money goes to the family...and if it isn't the final it would be in the family's best interest for who ever is currently playing better to continue to play since she's the one most likely to continue to win.

But I never thought match fixing was based on anything other than bullshit and hate of Richard Williams.

:shrug:

Yes, but maybe you don't remember the early days of their career. This was something that was voiced by Elena Dementieva at Indian Wells and led to the booing incident; that was based on interpretations of some of the statements Richard made at the time. I still think there was something fishy about the way Serena seemed to step behind Venus in 2000-1, as though she shouldn't have won a slam first.

This book sounds very convincing to me as it has been pretty clear that Richard is a control freak, even based on what he says:

1. The fact that he says that the daughters were procreated to be tennis stars after him seeing Virginia Ruzici win a tournament. What parents control their children's destiny from birth like that except royalty?

2. He always goes on and on about how they lived in Compton and were shot at etc while practicising. So why did he move the family there from Michigan? So the story is clearly more complicated than his version.

3. The documentary 'The Williams Story' focusses only on Richard, Serena and Venus as though the rest of the Williams family don't exist. Weird.

4. Lack of credit to coaches is common not just to Rineberg but also to Rick Macci. Richard has always wanted to take all the credit for his daughters' success, whereas clearly there were other people involved too.

5. Serena's autobiography drones on about the family ad nauseam, but somehow manages to miss out the incident when Oracene ended up in hospital, Oracene divorced Richard and Richard married Keisha. Funny that, but they are pretty key events. Wonder who read and edited it before it went to the publishers. Three guesses!

Pureracket
Jul 6th, 2010, 10:57 AM
Yes, but maybe you don't remember the early days of their career. This was something that was voiced by Elena Dementieva at Indian Wells and led to the booing incident; that was based on interpretations of some of the statements Richard made at the time. I still think there was something fishy about the way Serena seemed to step behind Venus in 2000-1, as though she shouldn't have won a slam first.

This book sounds very convincing to me as it has been pretty clear that Richard is a control freak, even based on what he says:

1. The fact that he says that the daughters were procreated to be tennis stars after him seeing Virginia Ruzici win a tournament. What parents control their children's destiny from birth like that except royalty?

2. He always goes on and on about how they lived in Compton and were shot at etc while practicising. So why did he move the family there from Michigan? So the story is clearly more complicated than his version.

3. The documentary 'The Williams Story' focusses only on Richard, Serena and Venus as though the rest of the Williams family don't exist. Weird.

4. Lack of credit to coaches is common not just to Rineberg but also to Rick Macci. Richard has always wanted to take all the credit for his daughters' success, whereas clearly there were other people involved too.

5. Serena's autobiography drones on about the family ad nauseam, but somehow manages to miss out the incident when Oracene ended up in hospital, Oracene divorced Richard and Richard married Keisha. Funny that, but they are pretty key events. Wonder who read and edited it before it went to the publishers. Three guesses!You obviously hate them, but you read these books. Interesting.

The Witch-king
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:01 AM
Y
1. The fact that he says that the daughters were procreated to be tennis stars after him seeing Virginia Ruzici win a tournament. What parents control their children's destiny from birth like that except royalty?


answered your own question:bounce::kiss:

Serenita
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:11 AM
answered your own question:bounce::kiss:

He did :lol:

StephenUK
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:16 AM
You obviously hate them, but you read these books. Interesting.

I am not a fan of the sisters but I don't hate them. Maybe I have been harsh over the last few days but that is in response to some of the over the top nonsense I have read. I have never liked Richard Williams but I think Oracene is a very classy lady, one of the best tennis parents and I think she deserves a lot of the credit for the rise of Serena. I was the one who predicted Serena would not lose a set at Wimbledon, by the way...

What is wrong with looking at the books if you are not a fan? The fact is that the Williams family are fascinating, but it seems to me that a lot of what we read about them just seems so controlled and frankly, not believable. It is about time they received some real indepth treatment by a decent writer who can look at them from all angles. So much is still so unknown. Like Oracene's first marriage and widowhood - what is the story behind that?

Slutiana
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:43 AM
I am not a fan of the sisters but I don't hate them. Maybe I have been harsh over the last few days but that is in response to some of the over the top nonsense I have read. I have never liked Richard Williams but I think Oracene is a very classy lady, one of the best tennis parents and I think she deserves a lot of the credit for the rise of Serena. I was the one who predicted Serena would not lose a set at Wimbledon, by the way...

What is wrong with looking at the books if you are not a fan? The fact is that the Williams family are fascinating, but it seems to me that a lot of what we read about them just seems so controlled and frankly, not believable. It is about time they received some real indepth treatment by a decent writer who can look at them from all angles. So much is still so unknown. Like Oracene's first marriage and widowhood - what is the story behind that?
That is none of yours or anybody else's business. :shrug:

Slutiana
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:49 AM
And Richard was very controlling, no doubt about it. But that doesn't automatically mean he was a terrible father or that he fixed their matches. Some of it was down to his ego and loving the attention, but a lot of it was also down to the fact that he loves Venus and Serena, and that is pretty much Rineberg's viewpoint throughout the book, so lets not twist anything.

The part where he implies that they were match fixing is so stupid anyway. All that happened was that Richard wanted to have a private word with Venus and Serena. That doesn't automatically mean that he was telling them to fix their match. :shrug:

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 6th, 2010, 12:44 PM
if they are fixing matches they're doing a bad job at it since i'd assume you'd try to make them both equal in terms of achievements if possible :shrug:

yassiesj20
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:18 PM
That is none of yours or anybody else's business. :shrug:

:worship::worship::worship:

Direwolf
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:33 PM
I for one dont believe in Richards match fixing...

maybe

MAYBE he did it so that the people could believe his words...
that his words would/did come true...

Svetlana)))
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:44 PM
Is it possible to read this book online or do i have to go purchase it? Tennis in my country is just Federer-Nadal and Wimbledon.

StephenUK
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:53 PM
That is none of yours or anybody else's business. :shrug:

Come off it, if the Williams family choose to write autobiographies and present their view of the world, then they are fair game for other voices to be heard. Who are they, Stalin?

Re Richard, I would say that he is a complex figure and of course, he deserves a lot of respect for the amazing job he did with his daughters. As you say, this book does not present him as all bad either. It's just good to get some different perspectives rather than Richard's on this world.

dreamgoddess099
Jul 7th, 2010, 11:05 AM
Come off it, if the Williams family choose to write autobiographies and present their view of the world, then they are fair game for other voices to be heard. Who are they, Stalin?

First, I read the book long long ago. It had mad hater cause Richard saw me for what I was and fired me all over it. It turns out Richard was right, again. Second, correction, the Williams family did not write a book, Venus and Serena are the only ones to have written books. Oracene hasn't written anything. And who are you to determine what is fair game, what are you the crocodile hunter? Sit your meddling ass down. I also find it so interesting that Venus and Serena both themselves have said on numerous occasions how great a dad Richard is, however you and haters like you are quickest to gravitate to the words of a disgruntled ex employee. He thought he had hit the lotto (much like Macci) only to be released of his services when Richard felt he was trying to be too involved in his daughters lives. And Richard was right, Dave clearly had a thing for Venus. Richard is a father, he is supposed to protect his girls.

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 7th, 2010, 11:25 AM
Come off it, if the Williams family choose to write autobiographies and present their view of the world, then they are fair game for other voices to be heard. Who are they, Stalin?

Re Richard, I would say that he is a complex figure and of course, he deserves a lot of respect for the amazing job he did with his daughters. As you say, this book does not present him as all bad either. It's just good to get some different perspectives rather than Richard's on this world.

ummm no it's not fair game...they chose to keep it private and therefore it's none of your business since they chose to leave it out...if they wanted you to know you'd know

Vlover
Jul 7th, 2010, 01:47 PM
First, I read the book long long ago. It had mad hater cause Richard saw me for what I was and fired me all over it. It turns out Richard was right, again.
Clearly Richard is never diplomatic in what he says and does but I trust his judgment as to what is in the best interest for his daughters. Clearly Richard was never going to hand over total control of his daughters to anyone therefore if he sees things going in a direction he doesn't like then he is going to put an end to it.

If this guy worked with them and saw no evidence of match fixing but willing to make such an accusation then this is a testament to his character and Richard was correct to get rid of him. Knowing the dynamics of how close the Sisters are and their winning history this would be a very strange match fixing results. Also, I strongly doubt Oracene would go along with such a thing anyway. As Judge Judy would say, if it doesn't make sense most likely it isn't true. The only logical thing I can think of for match fixing in their case was to keep the results balance and that certainly didn't happen.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of people pissed at Richard for not handing over his daughters to tennis academies, management firms and so called great coaches so that they could cash in more. BTW when the Sisters retire and if Richard should write a book it would be a must read for me because he would certainly let it rip.:lol: In the end I think Richard is going to be the best father/coach in history because I don't think anyone else will be able to accomplish what he did.

Whitehead's Boy
Jul 7th, 2010, 03:05 PM
You know, I think that guy is in a better position than us to judge what kind of person Richard is, and what he is capable of.

Also, this:

"According to a police report, Oracene was viciously attacked, but though she received three broken ribs she refused to press charges, telling officers: 'I know you know what happened, but I'm fearful for my daughters' careers.'"

Source:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/oracene1.html

IF the person in question is Richard Williams (who else could it be?), then who knows what he is capable of?

Slutiana
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:40 PM
the Williams family did not write a book, Venus and Serena are the only ones to have written books. Oracene hasn't written anything. And who are you to determine what is fair game, what are you the crocodile hunter? Sit your meddling ass down.
Exactly.


But I don't think Rineberg had a thing for Venus or anything. Knowing Richard's eccentric ways, that is probably exactly what happened, but he wasn't under a legally binding contract or anything like that so it was always bound to happen.

Pureracket
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:46 PM
You know, I think that guy is in a better position than us to judge what kind of person Richard is, and what he is capable of.

Also, this:

"According to a police report, Oracene was viciously attacked, but though she received three broken ribs she refused to press charges, telling officers: 'I know you know what happened, but I'm fearful for my daughters' careers.'"

Source:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/oracene1.html

IF the person in question is Richard Williams (who else could it be?), then who knows what he is capable of?Yea, because the whole family looked like they hated each other when Serena was winning another Slam last Saturday. I guess we'll have to believe you since we can't really post a blog's police file of the accuser.

Vlover
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:54 PM
Yea, because the whole family looked like they hated each other when Serena was winning another Slam last Saturday. I guess we'll have to believe you since we can't really post a blog's police file of the accuser.
Plus I don't know what is the relevance of Richard's and Oracene's relationship to what is being discussed in this thread. What ever happened they are divourced and both have moved on with their lives with minimal impact on the lives of their daughters. So...

Whitehead's Boy
Jul 7th, 2010, 06:21 PM
The point is, if Richard physically abused Oracene at least once, then he's most likely a control freak, and we know he's capable of immoral actions. Hence it's reasonable to think that he MIGHT want, or is capable, to fix his daughters matches. Which isn't the same to say that he DID fix some matches.

And I'm going to assume a person who has been around Richard for years know more about his character than anonymous posters on a messageboard.

Infiniti2001
Jul 7th, 2010, 06:35 PM
I am not a fan of the sisters but I don't hate them. Maybe I have been harsh over the last few days but that is in response to some of the over the top nonsense I have read. I have never liked Richard Williams but I think Oracene is a very classy lady, one of the best tennis parents and I think she deserves a lot of the credit for the rise of Serena. I was the one who predicted Serena would not lose a set at Wimbledon, by the way...

What is wrong with looking at the books if you are not a fan? The fact is that the Williams family are fascinating, but it seems to me that a lot of what we read about them just seems so controlled and frankly, not believable. It is about time they received some real indepth treatment by a decent writer who can look at them from all angles. So much is still so unknown. Like Oracene's first marriage and widowhood - what is the story behind that?

Maybe over the last few days? Let's be honest :rolleyes: You believe what you want to believe and the truth hitting you in the face would make no difference :help:

kiwifan
Jul 7th, 2010, 06:50 PM
Yes, but maybe you don't remember the early days of their career. This was something that was voiced by Elena Dementieva at Indian Wells and led to the booing incident; that was based on interpretations of some of the statements Richard made at the time. I still think there was something fishy about the way Serena seemed to step behind Venus in 2000-1, as though she shouldn't have won a slam first.


I live in Los Angeles...I've been following them since before Serena could look over the net.

What statements Richard made?

Richard seems more like a "protect his kids" freak. Than a control freak. Look at the finished products, clearly not doing much of anything against their own will...in fact they stop playing (which means less money for Richard) whenever they feel even a little injured...seems like the opposite of every tennis control freak ever. :scratch:

As was mentioned by another poster, the reactions of these outsiders pretty much validate Richard's judgment in giving them the "heave ho".

"I love these kids so much that I'm going to write a tell all about them." :lol:

As far as I know a relative who was kicked out of the house for drug use sold a story to the tabloids and that is where all the bullshit comes from. A drug addict relative most of us never knew existed before or since the tabloid story.


Last time I checked when one is marketing one's self you present the happy story intended to inspire...we still don't know what happened between Richard and Oracene as neither has gone on the record. They seem to have made peace with their divorce and that's all we really know. Why would any of the stuff you mentioned have to be in Venus or Serena's books?

Some of you choose to believe the National Enquirer and also choose to believe anything else negative about the Williams Sisters. Coaches get fired for all kinds of reasons; you can't debate the results...after all if these former Coaches are so damn special why don't they prove it with some other American girl players?

Instead you get speculation from people who don't even like the Sisters about how much better they'd be "if"...and then same speculators never heard of Macci or the other coaches (be honest most people only knew Nick B, when you talk about tennis coaches) until something negative came up.

Bottom line nothing you said above refutes what I said...Match fixing just doesn't make any sense...I'm still not aware of Demented or Mauresmo's justification for anything they've said in the past other than hard feelings after getting their asses kicked. Neither of them have stood by their ignorant statements at the time or since then...only the posters who want to believe anything negative seem to be empowered by those statements.

Donny
Jul 7th, 2010, 07:19 PM
2. He always goes on and on about how they lived in Compton and were shot at etc while practicising. So why did he move the family there from Michigan? So the story is clearly more complicated than his version.

Saginaw is part of the Tri-Cities region, one of the most economically depressed, crime ridden regions in America, far more so than Compton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_%2840,000_%E2%8 0%93_60,000%29#2008_data

It ranks second in homicide rate among small cities. It's murder rate is 37.7, compared to 37.4 for Detroit. In contrast, the entire region of Southern Africa has a murder rate of 37.3. And of course, it was even worse when they left.

In other words, they left a really really shitty place for only a really shitty place. If you're going to doubt his story, at least take a course on US history first.

Vlover
Jul 7th, 2010, 07:44 PM
Bottom line nothing you said above refutes what I said...Match fixing just doesn't make any sense...I'm still not aware of Demented or Mauresmo's justification for anything they've said in the past other than hard feelings after getting their asses kicked. Neither of them have stood by their ignorant statements at the time or since then...only the posters who want to believe anything negative seem to be empowered by those statements.
I'm sure these two disgruntled players who have a hard time beating the Sisters have any evidence either. Furthermore, wouldn't match fixing include both players so that one could win over the other therefore how would IW be classified as such?:confused: If match fixing was involved then Venus would have had to play so as to give Serena the win, then Venus could use her injury to justify the loss.:tape: It makes no sense for Venus to withdraw as she could have tanked the match or retire before the end for Serena to win anyway, so there is no real logic to these empty claims.

austinp
Jul 7th, 2010, 07:54 PM
yes i would like to here some intresting things about it as well i am very intrested by the sister duo

The Witch-king
Jul 7th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Saginaw is part of the Tri-Cities region, one of the most economically depressed, crime ridden regions in America, far more so than Compton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_%2840,000_%E2%8 0%93_60,000%29#2008_data

It ranks second in homicide rate among small cities. It's murder rate is 37.7, compared to 37.4 for Detroit. In contrast, the entire region of Southern Africa has a murder rate of 37.3. And of course, it was even worse when they left.

In other words, they left a really really shitty place for only a really shitty place. If you're going to doubt his story, at least take a course on US history first.

good load.

StephenUK, just RETIRE.:wavey:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/2010/writers/jon_wertheim/01/28/thursday.mailbag/henin-serena.jpg

Donny
Jul 8th, 2010, 02:12 PM
The point is, if Richard physically abused Oracene at least once, then he's most likely a control freak, and we know he's capable of immoral actions. Hence it's reasonable to think that he MIGHT want, or is capable, to fix his daughters matches. Which isn't the same to say that he DID fix some matches.

And I'm going to assume a person who has been around Richard for years know more about his character than anonymous posters on a messageboard.

Even assuming he did want to fix matches, why do we make the assumption that either sister would ever entertain the idea?

Vlover
Jul 8th, 2010, 03:51 PM
And I'm going to assume a person who has been around Richard for years know more about his character than anonymous posters on a messageboard.
Likewise there are those of us who will assume that being around this guy Richard saw his true character and didn't want him around any more. I will always give Richard the benefit of the doubt because so far all I've seen and heard are assumptions, speculations and biased opinions that are totally void of evidence to date.

Petkorazzi
Aug 19th, 2010, 03:38 AM
I just read this book in just over two hours. Definitely a great read, even though he gets really bitter towards the end. If everything he said is true though, it can be justified. But I really did NOT like the bitchy ending. :rolleyes:

dencod16
Nov 12th, 2013, 01:05 PM
Bump. Just saw the documentary today and never heard of Rineberg. Interesting.