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View Full Version : Male ATP players would have major problems to break Serena's serve...


chuvack
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:51 AM
...on grass.

Don't give me any of this "you can't compare mens and womens tennis" crap. At Wimby, Serena was serving at 115-125 mph just centimeters from the lines. No player on the ATP is breaking serve consistently against that level of serving on grass. No way.

Of course Serena would not be able to break serve either, but she would only be losing to Federer and Nadal by like 63 64, maybe even some tiebreaker sets, if she served the way she did in this Wimby... very impressive.

Deck
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:52 AM
:rocker2: keep 'em coming

Carotastrophe
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:53 AM
Possible.

Rafito.
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:54 AM
Nadal beat Soderling 6-1 in one of the sets when serving much better than Serena could ever do. So I really doubt any tie break sets would occur. :spit:

Marionated
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:55 AM
:weirdo:

Otlichno
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:57 AM
:spit: The men are constantly dealing with the likes of Roddick, Karlovic and Isner. If, by any chance, you think Serena has a better serve than these 3 you must be delusional. The men, who are more used to big serves, will eventually see patterns in her serving and use them to their advantage.

mauresmofan
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:00 PM
well she is no 6 on the aces list and that's having won all her matches in straights at Wimbledon that's quite an achievement

kiwialicat
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:00 PM
no freakin' way. Not 'major' problems. Especially when they are generally much better returners anyway.

Beat
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:08 PM
:rolls:

Mrs. Dimitrova
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:10 PM
No :spit:

Expat
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:12 PM
Just because except a few like Serena everyone in WTA specializes in double faults doesn't mean Serena is at ATP level

narutos
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:17 PM
At Wimby, Serena was serving at 115-125 mph just centimeters from the lines.

This absolutely wrong Serena average first serve was around 110/115 mph the whole tourney, actually her best average was against Sharapova and here again she served around 113mph the whole match. Stop lying.

Daniel K
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:19 PM
:haha:

siddharthrajpal
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:19 PM
it is not always about serving hard flat, the guys can serve a lot of variety(so can serena but not that level) + serena is not that tall + murray,nadal return all the serves they just can't handle the pace of the opponents forehand.... serena can't hit a Petzschner forehand...

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Serena's fastest serve at Wimbledon was 125 mph. The 10th fastest mens serve was 137mph from Tsonga.

Men are used to dealing with big serves, and I'm sorry but as soon as they got the ball back (which they would probably 95% of the time) Serena would be on the back foot because every other part of her game (FH, BH, net game, footwork.. EVERYTHING) is even further than the level of ATP players.

Don't be ridiculous.

Dave.
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:20 PM
So? :shrug:

So Disrespectful
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:21 PM
Maybe Isner or Karlovic would.

Baselinebasher
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:22 PM
...on grass.

Don't give me any of this "you can't compare mens and womens tennis" crap. At Wimby, Serena was serving at 115-125 mph just centimeters from the lines. No player on the ATP is breaking serve consistently against that level of serving on grass. No way.

Of course Serena would not be able to break serve either, but she would only be losing to Federer and Nadal by like 63 64, maybe even some tiebreaker sets, if she served the way she did in this Wimby... very impressive.

Any top 500 player would double bagel Serena.... on any surface. She wouldn't win a single point against Nadal or Federer.

Olórin
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Maybe Isner or Karlovic would.

Definitely, there are several men in the top 50 who have simply useless returns. They couldn't deduce a serving pattern to save their lives. I don't think Serena could beat any man in the top 200 but she could definitely win several games against some, serving like this.

sammy01
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:25 PM
why are people so delusional? serena's serve for the WTA standards is great, for the mens who put so much more spin on it and serve harder it is powder puff.

sammy01
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:28 PM
and lol at people thinking because serena has 83 aces against players with the likes of domi's wingspan and MLDB she would have 83 facing the likes of berdych or nadal, who move faster and have a much bigger wingspan and strength to control the ball.

Valanga
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:29 PM
mens tennis and womens tennis are DIFFERENT.

Olórin
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:32 PM
mens tennis and womens tennis are DIFFERENT.

Yes men's tennis and women's tennis are different sports, that is why they have different tours and different events to enter in Grand Slams. But it's not like the women are so physically inferior that they can't be compared to the men on any level whatsoever!

While a player like Nadal would go through the women's draw having a lot of golden sets there is some interaction and cross over between the tours...hence events like Mixed Doubles.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:34 PM
and lol at people thinking because serena has 83 aces against players with the likes of domi's wingspan and MLDB she would have 83 facing the likes of berdych or nadal, who move faster and have a much bigger wingspan and strength to control the ball.

I forgot to mention wingspan.

I just don't know why people even try to compare mens tennis to womens tennis. Would you both sexes in running, swimming or shotput? It's just stupid and unnecessary.

chuvack
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:35 PM
:spit: The men are constantly dealing with the likes of Roddick, Karlovic and Isner. If, by any chance, you think Serena has a better serve than these 3 you must be delusional. The men, who are more used to big serves, will eventually see patterns in her serving and use them to their advantage.

Where's the logic here?

The men are not "constantly dealing with the serves" of Roddick, Karlovic, and Isner. ATP players only manage to break those serves practically about 2% of the time.

Serena doesn't need a serve as good as the above players to give the men problems. A 120-mph serve on grass is VERY difficult to break...

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:35 PM
Yes men's tennis and women's tennis are different sports, that is why they have different tours and different events to enter in Grand Slams. But it's not like the women are so physically inferior that they can't be compared to the men on any level whatsoever!

While a player like Nadal would go through the women's draw having a lot of golden sets there is some interaction and cross over between the tours...hence events like Mixed Doubles.

Serena would not have beaten any male in the Wimbledon draw, including qualifying.

Olórin
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:37 PM
I don't think Serena could beat any man in the top 200 but she could definitely win several games against some, serving like this.

Serena would not have beaten any male in the Wimbledon draw, including qualifying.

Read the full thread before posting, it will prevent you from making pointless and redundant posts.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:42 PM
Where's the logic here?

The men are not "constantly dealing with the serves" of Roddick, Karlovic, and Isner. ATP players only manage to break those serves practically about 2% of the time.

Serena doesn't need a serve as good as the above players to give the men problems. A 120-mph serve on grass is VERY difficult to break...

You look so stupid right now.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Read the full thread before posting, it will prevent you from making pointless and redundant posts.

You edited that post. The words 'several games' weren't there before.

chuvack
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:44 PM
I just don't know why people even try to compare mens tennis to womens tennis. Would you both sexes in running, swimming or shotput? It's just stupid and unnecessary.


Who gave you the moral authority to forbid people from comparing men and women?

chuvack
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:46 PM
You look so stupid right now.


You haven't provided a shred of information to disprove anything I wrote, yet you call me stupid?? LOL to you.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:48 PM
Who gave you the moral authority to forbid people from comparing men and women? Are you an Islamic imam?

I just don't see it's necessity when it comes to sports, unless you're discussing darts, chess, snooker or bowling. :shrug:

KimandJu
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:49 PM
Serena would lose 6-0 6-2 to any ATP-player ranked in the top 50...

Correcting myself, she would probably lose 6-0 6-2 to any ATP-player ranked in the top 200. Not to diss Serena's abilities, just keeping it real...

madmax
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:50 PM
LOL...talk about delusional:haha: And when WS fans are wondering, why they have so many haters...

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:51 PM
Serena's fastest serve at Wimbledon was 125 mph. The 10th fastest mens serve was 137mph from Tsonga.

Men are used to dealing with big serves, and I'm sorry but as soon as they got the ball back (which they would probably 95% of the time) Serena would be on the back foot because every other part of her game (FH, BH, net game, footwork.. EVERYTHING) is even further than the level of ATP players.

Don't be ridiculous.

This was my attempt at evidence.

Sorry if it wasn't up to your standards of just repeating '120mph is tough to return on grass' over and over. That seems to be your only argument, and I'm calling bullshit as the men are dealing with much more, much more often.

Dodoboy.
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:52 PM
A 122 mph ace down the Tee is the same as a 122MPH ace down the tee on BOTH TOURS!

Serena's serve will not be POWDERPUFF you moron!

The Witch-king
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:52 PM
What about female atp players

Sexysova
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:54 PM
:spit:

Baselinebasher
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:55 PM
This thread has convinced me. Strip Serena of her Wimbledon title and make her play Nadal in finals. I want to see her take him to a tiebreak.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:56 PM
What about female atp players

:confused:

The Witch-king
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:58 PM
A 122 mph ace down the Tee is the same as a 122MPH ace down the tee on BOTH TOURS!

Serena's serve will not be POWDERPUFF you moron!
simon was serving at Venus (first serve) Serena (2nd) speeds against murray and murray was standing waay back

The 2nd Law
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:58 PM
What about female atp players

:lol: :worship: You beat me to it :(

markdelaney
Jul 4th, 2010, 12:59 PM
I'm guessing she would lose 70-68 in the 5th set ?

bandabou
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:05 PM
:lol: Relax torros..Serena's great, but not ATP-level. NO woman, not Graf, not Navratilova, can play with any male pros.

One thing I'd say is: The few times she played Hopman Cup she was actually holding own pretty good on serve against the male players, sooo..

sammy01
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:10 PM
A 122 mph ace down the Tee is the same as a 122MPH ace down the tee on BOTH TOURS!

Serena's serve will not be POWDERPUFF you moron!

no bcause if serena's playing 5ft 3inch domi it doesn't need to be anywhere near as accurate as a 122mph ace down the tee against a 6ft 3 inch murray or 6ft 5inch berdych. :wavey:

and how many serves did serena hit at wimbledon at 122mph, 5 or 6 throughout the whole tournament, a lot of the guys average that.

iPatty
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:23 PM
Sigh. Some people will just never understand how difficult it would be for any WTA player (even Serena) to win points off of ATP players. :shrug:

pierce85
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:36 PM
Delusional....If you take into consideration the wingspan, height and speed of atp players, your answer is she wouldn't win a single game. I mean come on, most of the wta players reactions are slower than the replay when receiving, it's not that hard to ace them!

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:42 PM
why do you reply to a thread like this CLEARLY started by a hater :lol:

miffedmax
Jul 4th, 2010, 01:53 PM
In a world where Dementieva could ace Murray, I can see Serena holding against some male players for a game or two. But that's about it, and certainly not against a highly ranked player.

On the other hand, an M-1 could blow up my Passat from like 4 or 5 km away. But my Passat gets much better gas mileage.

In other words, some comparisons are really stupid.

donniedarkofan
Jul 4th, 2010, 02:43 PM
...on grass.

Don't give me any of this "you can't compare mens and womens tennis" crap. At Wimby, Serena was serving at 115-125 mph just centimeters from the lines. No player on the ATP is breaking serve consistently against that level of serving on grass. No way.

Of course Serena would not be able to break serve either, but she would only be losing to Federer and Nadal by like 63 64, maybe even some tiebreaker sets, if she served the way she did in this Wimby... very impressive.

Oh, it's great to have a good laugh on a hot summer day. Thanks.

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Btw, in the Boy's Final that took place today one of them registered a fastest serve of 127mph, the other 126mph. Serena's fastest for the tournament was 125mph. So, theoretically, ATP players would have even bigger problems breaking either of their serves than Serena's. :eek:

tenn_ace
Jul 4th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Another idiotic thread. Keep'em coming : rolls:

Coke Zero
Jul 4th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Also, Serena's average first serve speed in the final was 105mph so she was hardly serving consistently between 115-125mph.

Dodoboy.
Jul 4th, 2010, 02:58 PM
no bcause if serena's playing 5ft 3inch domi it doesn't need to be anywhere near as accurate as a 122mph ace down the tee against a 6ft 3 inch murray or 6ft 5inch berdych. :wavey:

and how many serves did serena hit at wimbledon at 122mph, 5 or 6 throughout the whole tournament, a lot of the guys average that.

The reason why people think Serena is the best server, is because she is doing something even Nadal is failing to do. At Deuce in this tournament Serena would NEVER double fault, she would come up with her best serve.

It doesn't even need to be over 120 to get past some of these guys. I FULLY appreciate that the WTA players would be bulldozed (Men are stronger, nothing they should be 'proud' about and pawn over the women) but they aren't these indestructible God among men that some think they are.

Dodoboy.
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Another note, imagine if Serena was left-handed with this sort of serve :speakles:

chuvack
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:00 PM
How many of you morons have actually played tennis?

As a returner, do you think it is easy to win a point after somebody has just hit a 110-mph serve 5 centimeters from the service line or the sideline?

ATP players do NOT break those kind of servers very often. They have to wait until the server screws up, to get a break.

Back in the day, McEnroe served at the same speed of Serena - 115 mph - and he was almost never broken at Wimby. You don't need to serve 140 mph to hold serve on grass.

Direwolf
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:01 PM
please tell that to Isner who lost like 3 - 2 and 2

ptitnavet
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:05 PM
They are used to better serves : Roddick, Isner ...

miffedmax
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Well, back in the day, I could serve in the 90s.
But I'm not stupid enough to think that means I could have hung with a WTA player, even though lots of them have serves in that range.

égalité
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:08 PM
:haha:

Even if she serves at 70%, she's still going to lose almost all of her second serve points, and at the very most will win 50% of her first serve points. ATP players will be able to put her first serve in play, and if she gets into a rally, she's going to lose most of them. If she makes a string of first serves she could win a couple of games.

As a returner, do you think it is easy to win a point after somebody has just hit a 110-mph serve 5 centimeters from the service line or the sideline?

ATP players do NOT break those kind of servers very often. They have to wait until the server screws up, to get a break.

Back in the day, McEnroe served at the same speed of Serena - 115 mph - and he was almost never broken at Wimby. You don't need to serve 140 mph to hold serve on grass.

Do you think the serves alone are what allow ATP players to hold serve so easily on grass? No. It's what they do with the weak returns they get. It's how they finish the point. Serena isn't going to put away those shots like an ATP player does.

Donny
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:54 PM
LOL...talk about delusional:haha: And when WS fans are wondering, why they have so many haters...

The thread starter doesn't even like Serena.

rockstar
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:56 PM
nice try serena fans

Optima
Jul 4th, 2010, 03:59 PM
Yeah right.

No offense to Serena, but I would love to see Delpo or a Cillic to return her serve.

Thkmra
Jul 4th, 2010, 04:27 PM
LOL...talk about delusional:haha: And when WS fans are wondering, why they have so many haters(envious people)...

There:)

moby
Jul 4th, 2010, 04:31 PM
:haha:

Even if she serves at 70%, she's still going to lose almost all of her second serve points, and at the very most will win 50% of her first serve points. ATP players will be able to put her first serve in play, and if she gets into a rally, she's going to lose most of them. If she makes a string of first serves she could win a couple of games.



Do you think the serves alone are what allow ATP players to hold serve so easily on grass? No. It's what they do with the weak returns they get. It's how they finish the point. Serena isn't going to put away those shots like an ATP player does.Beat me to it.

Vikapower
Jul 4th, 2010, 04:39 PM
Even if she serves at 70%, she's still going to lose almost all of her second serve points, and at the very most will win 50% of her first serve points. ATP players will be able to put her first serve in play, and if she gets into a rally, she's going to lose most of them. If she makes a string of first serves she could win a couple of games.

Do you think the serves alone are what allow ATP players to hold serve so easily on grass? No. It's what they do with the weak returns they get. It's how they finish the point. Serena isn't going to put away those shots like an ATP player does.
This is the most sensefull comment I've read in all this nonesens thread. Thank you for this breath of fresh air. :worship:

bandabou
Jul 4th, 2010, 04:47 PM
:haha: :rolls: Are people this desperate now? To go to the extent that Serena wouldn't survive on the ATP tour? Of course not...she's FEMALE, so all she needs to worry about is beating the other FEMALES of the WTA tour. Peoplee..soooo funny. :lol:

Serena y Monica
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:25 PM
:spit: The men are constantly dealing with the likes of Roddick, Karlovic and Isner. If, by any chance, you think Serena has a better serve than these 3 you must be delusional. The men, who are more used to big serves, will eventually see patterns in her serving and use them to their advantage.

Serena has less speed but better placement. The real problem comes off the ground. She's not fast or strong enough to hold her own against just about any male player. No getting aroung that very basic truth.

MaBaker
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:30 PM
She is unbreakable.

sdtoot
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:39 PM
No doubt Serena is the only female player with the consistancy on serve to stand any chance against a male ATP player but at what ATP ranking? Maybe against someone ranked outside the top 1000 she could win a few service games per set, but otherwise it is dillusional to think she would stand any chance to win more than 1 or 2 service points per game against higher ranked ATP players.

Otlichno
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:46 PM
Serena has less speed but better placement. The real problem comes off the ground. She's not fast or strong enough to hold her own against just about any male player. No getting aroung that very basic truth.

Serena has better placement than Isner, Karlovic and Roddick!!!???

You, my friend, are an idiot! :worship:

Serenita
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:49 PM
Thread starter is a Serena hater. :shrug:

Freakan
Jul 4th, 2010, 06:53 PM
players from boys qualifying draw maybe...

Calypso
Jul 4th, 2010, 07:06 PM
No they wouldn't.

ATP players face far harder struck serves than Serena's, and many are tall and physically strong, improving their reach and ability to block back powerful serves with depth.

Dominic
Jul 4th, 2010, 07:59 PM
Any top 500 player would double bagel Serena.... on any surface. She wouldn't win a single point against Nadal or Federer.

HAHA you have got to be kidding! Serena could win some games against anyone. And there is not chance in hell that the ATP 500 would double bagel her.

Dominic
Jul 4th, 2010, 08:09 PM
No doubt Serena is the only female player with the consistancy on serve to stand any chance against a male ATP player but at what ATP ranking? Maybe against someone ranked outside the top 1000 she could win a few service games per set, but otherwise it is dillusional to think she would stand any chance to win more than 1 or 2 service points per game against higher ranked ATP players.

If Patty Schnyder can beat a guy ranked around 1100 in straigh sets, I think there is very little doubt that Serena would beat anyone outside the top 1000 confortably.

madmax
Jul 4th, 2010, 08:10 PM
If Patty Schnyder can beat a guy ranked around 1100 in straigh sets, I think there is very little doubt that Serena would beat anyone outside the top 1000 confortably.

yeah, keep dreaming:lol: She wouldn't sniff a set against any ranked ATP professional, nevermind the winning...

friendsita
Jul 4th, 2010, 08:22 PM
most of them yes

Otlichno
Jul 4th, 2010, 08:51 PM
yeah, keep dreaming:lol: She wouldn't sniff a set against any ranked ATP professional, nevermind the winning...

So you're saying that Patty Schnyder can beat someone Serena can't? :tape:

2Black
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:17 PM
Serena would WHOOP James Blake crybaby azz, no doubt :lol: and she would crush fatboy, David Nalbandian :tape:

Otlichno
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:19 PM
Serena would WHOOP James Blake crybaby azz, no doubt :lol: and she would crush fatboy, David Nalbandian :tape:

It's a bit difficult to know when people are joking on a forum, but do you really think Serena would ever have a chance against Nalbandian? EVER!

Myskinacomeback
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:19 PM
maby she should ask AGAIN for another ATP wildcard

2Black
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:29 PM
It's a bit difficult to know when people are joking on a forum, but do you really think Serena would ever have a chance against Nalbandian? EVER!

I'm laughing because those two are so bad right now that if Serena is on, she could definitely beat them. We have all seen David play in a funk & get crushed. And I see you didn't question my Blake call :lol:

Blake can go into loser mode & mr. unforced error against anyone and at any point of a match
Nalbandian can go away & start thinking about soccer & donuts against anyone & at any point of a match :lol:

égalité
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:57 PM
I'm laughing because those two are so bad right now that if Serena is on, she could definitely beat them. We have all seen David play in a funk & get crushed. And I see you didn't question my Blake call :lol:

Blake can go into loser mode & mr. unforced error against anyone and at any point of a match
Nalbandian can go away & start thinking about soccer & donuts against anyone & at any point of a match :lol:

Yeah, by an ATP PLAYER :banghead:

Pureracket
Jul 4th, 2010, 09:59 PM
Williams hits it at 120 mph or more—faster than many of Rafael Nadal (http://sports.yahoo.com/ten/players/599/;_ylt=Aj3ZN6AzH0KqkUPH0Wx7hBcgv7YF)’s first serves. And her location is pinpoint, with the ball often kicking up chalk as the opponent lunges in vain.

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ap-wimbledon-serena

Otlichno
Jul 4th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Except an ATP opponents lunge would not be in vain. :kiss:

I'm sorry but Nadal was never thought to have that good of a serve for the ATP.

ivanban
Jul 4th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Only someone who never played tennis could come up with thread like this :weirdo:

bobcat
Jul 4th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Actually, I think Serena could probably win her serve a few times on grass against some guys in the top 500 although she'd have no chance against their serves. When she played mixed doubles in Hopman Cup she got Djokovic a few times on her serve and he went on to win the AO that year. Playing against some scrubs on grass should be a lot easier.

sdtoot
Jul 4th, 2010, 10:12 PM
If Patty Schnyder can beat a guy ranked around 1100 in straigh sets, I think there is very little doubt that Serena would beat anyone outside the top 1000 confortably.

I think we are forgetting what the thread title asked here, 'Male ATP players would have major problems to break Serena's serve... '. It implies that a lot of ATP players would struggle to beat Serena more convincingly than 7-6 7-6 which is a crazy statement to make. As for her 'beating anyone outside the top 1000 comfortably' then I think you are severly under-estimating the depth of talented players in the ATP.

Serena's power game easily dominates most women players but it would be a different matter playing opponents who would return her serve 20 mph faster than she would normally experience in WTA matches. Holding serve when the ball is being returned with interest would be very difficult even for a great player such as Serena.

2Black
Jul 4th, 2010, 10:22 PM
Yeah, by an ATP PLAYER :banghead:

The responses I've gotten proves it because no one disputes Blake :lol:

Both Nalbandian & Blake have been Top 5 but they both have also been horrid and those days they would have lost even to Serena Williams. Sad but true. :tape:

cogent53
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:10 PM
The original question about ATP players breaking Serena's serve is a valid one - if you just think about the serve. Men's greater speed and strength mean most would beat her in rallies, but her serving has been awesome lately. I was watching the men's final today and while they served faster, I would love to see one of those little graphics they do comparing the PLACEMENT of the serves. What did for Vera (and others) is the serve to the deuce court that either went out wide or down the T. Serena must have won so many points with that serve, time and time again. She has a lovely smooth serve action and her accuracy and speed have been great. Has she ever served better?
To answer the original question, I think some WOULD struggle to break her if she served like she has been.

xan
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:34 PM
Good female serves can trouble middle-ranked male players - as shown in mixed.

While male serves have more weight and spin as well as MPH, serving like Serena's would be quite hard to break, but by no means impossible. Maria broke her once in two sets. One could expect a mid-ranked male to do better, so I don't think there would be many tie breaks.

Myskinacomeback
Jul 4th, 2010, 11:43 PM
on grass she could serve a few games
but its a different kettle of fish
when its a guy up the other end of the court

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 12:31 AM
I think we are forgetting what the thread title asked here, 'Male ATP players would have major problems to break Serena's serve... '. It implies that a lot of ATP players would struggle to beat Serena more convincingly than 7-6 7-6 which is a crazy statement to make. As for her 'beating anyone outside the top 1000 comfortably' then I think you are severly under-estimating the depth of talented players in the ATP.

Serena's power game easily dominates most women players but it would be a different matter playing opponents who would return her serve 20 mph faster than she would normally experience in WTA matches. Holding serve when the ball is being returned with interest would be very difficult even for a great player such as Serena.

You do know Patty was ranked like 20 at that time and getting slugged in easy sets by the top women, (not just Serena). I personally dont think the top 100-200 would have trouble to break her serve (though she could hold serve a few times, a 120 mph serve close to the sideline is a 120 mph serve close to the sideline, wether its hit by someone who has a penis or a vagina.) But when getting lower like 500 or under, she would hold serve most the times IMO.

And I disagree with you that her power game easily dominates Wta, it's pretty much just her serve, alot of girls can hit just as hard and more accurate from the ground, especially at this Wimbledon but we are talking about holding serve here, the guys are good returners not necessarely because they return super powerfully or accuratelly, they just have more reach and can get back more serves in play, so it's not like they would destroy her serve, even her second serve.

Stamp Paid
Jul 5th, 2010, 12:37 AM
why do you reply to a thread like this CLEARLY started by a hater :lol:Just to throw even more stones at Serena
they dont even care how they have to do it :lol:

Onyx
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:02 AM
The Men would be the same position as the women if they actually used the same ball size as they do on the men's tour. Most definitely Serena will get an ace, but she won't be dominate on serve since the men would most likely run down all of her shots

wayitis
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:05 AM
While she is not at ATP level, it's amazing to see how easily Serena can dominate the Tour no matter what physical condition she seems to be in, there is no doubt that at least athletically, Serena is a player ahead of her time... Maybe 50 years from now it will be a possibility that women might be playing with their male counterparts in a lone tour and Serena will probably be seen as a pioneer of this gender playing equality...

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:42 AM
Where's the logic here?

The men are not "constantly dealing with the serves" of Roddick, Karlovic, and Isner. ATP players only manage to break those serves practically about 2% of the time.

Serena doesn't need a serve as good as the above players to give the men problems. A 120-mph serve on grass is VERY difficult to break...
Nadal broke Tomas Berdych four times today, and his average first-serve speed was 19 MPH faster than Serena's yesterday (124-105). Serena unquestionably has the best serve in the women's game, but compared to the men, it's average at best.

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:24 AM
Nadal broke Tomas Berdych four times today, and his average first-serve speed was 19 MPH faster than Serena's yesterday (124-105). Serena unquestionably has the best serve in the women's game, but compared to the men, it's average at best.

It's Nadal for god's sake.

Black Mamba.
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:27 AM
It's Nadal for god's sake.

This...................

Not every man on tour is a great returner of serve so I think Serena could give those players problems.

In The Zone
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:30 AM
Serena would not have beaten any male in the Wimbledon draw, including qualifying.

Clearly you have not seen James Blake play recently.

2Black
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:34 AM
Clearly you have not seen James Blake play recently.

THIS :lol:

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:34 AM
This...................

Not every man on tour is a great returner of serve so I think Serena could give those players problems.
Not every man on tour is a great returner of 130+ MPH serves. Serena's AVERAGE first serve speed is between 105-110, which is below average on the men's tour.

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:36 AM
Clearly you have not seen James Blake play recently.
Even in his declining state, James Blake would double-bagel Serena.

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:45 AM
It's ok to say that most men would beat her easily, It's the ppl saying double bagel who are ignorant lol. Serena has served 4 aces or service winners MANY times before in the same game, and yes some of those serves might come back in play against a man (by no means any man) but Serena has the ability to hit winners also off of ordinary returns, a 80-90 mph shot near the corner is a winner against a man or a woman. And the men actually do hit some UE's sometimes.

Black Mamba.
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:48 AM
Not every man on tour is a great returner of 130+ MPH serves. Serena's AVERAGE first serve speed is between 105-110, which is below average on the men's tour.

I think the variety in her serves along with the placement is more important than pace.

Lynz
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:53 AM
Is this a joke. The 523th ranked man would have not have a problem breaking her serve.
Sorry guys, men are stronger, and Serena's is a power game. They would beat her with power or they could beat her with technique, how many women now can hit with slice and extreme topspin. All guys can, and Serena can't hit balls with the pace she likes to hit into the court that bounce out of her strike zone.
Look, the women's game is basically a copy of the men's power players of the late eighties early nineties,like Becker's game but without technique of spins, and no, she couldn't beat those guys either.

Tennisstar86
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:02 AM
I think the variety in her serves along with the placement is more important than pace.

This. Serena places her serve REALLY well. Just like when Venus is on, her sliding serve outwide on the deuce court is unreturnable if they can get their racquets on it.

Serena's ace count would go down, but she'd have a ton of unreturnables. The only reason the guys would get a racquet on her serves is because they're taller. Its a lot harder to completely ace a 6"3" person than it is a 5"9" one. But just because they get their racquets on it doesnt mean its coming back over the net.

All that said, It seems like Serena has let her ground game go abit while shes been working on her serve. But to say she couldnt stay in the rallies is ridiculous imo, since the mens game is rarely about them hitting people off the court.

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:29 AM
I think the variety in her serves along with the placement is more important than pace.

This. Serena places her serve REALLY well. Just like when Venus is on, her sliding serve outwide on the deuce court is unreturnable if they can get their racquets on it.

Serena's ace count would go down, but she'd have a ton of unreturnables. The only reason the guys would get a racquet on her serves is because they're taller. Its a lot harder to completely ace a 6"3" person than it is a 5"9" one. But just because they get their racquets on it doesnt mean its coming back over the net.

All that said, It seems like Serena has let her ground game go abit while shes been working on her serve. But to say she couldnt stay in the rallies is ridiculous imo, since the mens game is rarely about them hitting people off the court.
1. Do either of you play tennis?

2. Have either of you seen top-level NCAA men's tennis before?

sammy01
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:38 AM
I think the variety in her serves along with the placement is more important than pace.

:sad: comments like this make me sad.

do you think serena gets anywhere near as much spin or work on the ball as the ATP players when serving? why do you think stosur is praised for her serve so much as she can kick a serve in, which all atp players can do. you will get absolutely nowhere in mens tennis without a good serve, and serena's compared to professional male players is a poor/average server.

2Black
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:57 AM
Even in his declining state, James Blake would double-bagel Serena.

James Blake couldn't double bagel Navratilova's old azz :lol:

tennnisfannn
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:47 AM
Serena would have to hit 4 aces per game in consecutive order (which is impossible) she does not even do that against the women.

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:09 AM
Nadal broke Tomas Berdych four times today, and his average first-serve speed was 19 MPH faster than Serena's yesterday (124-105). Serena unquestionably has the best serve in the women's game, but compared to the men, it's average at best.


Darrin, are you deliberately going for irony on this post?

Nadal's average 1st serve speed in the mens Wimby final yesterday was 115 mph. How many times did the big wing-spanned, 6'5 Berdych break him? That's right, NONE.

Once you get above 110 mph on grass, it ain't about the serve speed anymore. It's about the location. And Serena locates her serve as well as many, or even most, ATP players.

spencercarlos
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:24 AM
Darrin, are you deliberately going for irony on this post?

Nadal's average 1st serve speed in the mens Wimby final yesterday was 115 mph. How many times did the big wing-spanned, 6'5 Berdych break him? That's right, NONE.

Once you get above 110 mph on grass, it ain't about the serve speed anymore. It's about the location. And Serena locates her serve as well as many, or even most, ATP players.
So how Nadal does exactly hold serve? He does not exactly overpower his oponnents with each serve.

Anyway cut the delusion dude. You talk about Nadal´s average serve speed, lets talk about Serena´s average serve speed in the final a whooping 105MPH :lol: yeah she is gonna challenge the guys with that.. right :rolleyes:

http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/stats/day20/2701ms.html

:wavey:

1jackson2001
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:31 AM
This. Serena places her serve REALLY well. Just like when Venus is on, her sliding serve outwide on the deuce court is unreturnable if they can get their racquets on it.

Serena's ace count would go down, but she'd have a ton of unreturnables. The only reason the guys would get a racquet on her serves is because they're taller. Its a lot harder to completely ace a 6"3" person than it is a 5"9" one. But just because they get their racquets on it doesnt mean its coming back over the net.

All that said, It seems like Serena has let her ground game go abit while shes been working on her serve. But to say she couldnt stay in the rallies is ridiculous imo, since the mens game is rarely about them hitting people off the court.
lol. The men don't hit each other off the court all the time because the men are much faster and can do more with the ball. But even in solid "rally" shots Serena will have problem with almost every single point. Serena might want to give the ball the ride, which will result in error after error. But don't worry, Serena won't even be in an offensive enough position to realistically have any high percentage winners. We've seen how much trouble Serena has had with even some of the big WTA servers this Wimbledon. On her own service games, she will have big trouble holding as the guys return a lot better. She might have the odd ace/unreturnable, but that's about it. And of course once the ball is into play, the guy has the advantage. Even if the return lands short, she will have to play absolutely great approach shots (and Serena is hit and miss) because the ATP player will track it down easily (they are much faster) and pass her (or create an error from her).
Darrin, are you deliberately going for irony on this post?

Nadal's average 1st serve speed in the mens Wimby final yesterday was 115 mph. How many times did the big wing-spanned, 6'5 Berdych break him? That's right, NONE.

Once you get above 110 mph on grass, it ain't about the serve speed anymore. It's about the location. And Serena locates her serve as well as many, or even most, ATP players.
You're right. It's not all about speed. The men's serves have much more action. Nadal's serves have much more work on them (rotation/spin), so the speed of his serves are brought down, but they are harder to return or be aggressive against.

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:41 AM
So how Nadal does exactly hold serve? He does not exactly overpower his oponnents with each serve.

Anyway cut the delusion dude. You talk about Nadalґs average serve speed, lets talk about Serenaґs average serve speed in the final a whooping 105MPH :lol: yeah she is gonna challenge the guys with that.. right :rolleyes:

http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/scores/stats/day20/2701ms.html

:wavey:


So, one the the best returners in mens tennis (Berdych) can't touch Nadal's average 115mph serve in 3 sets, but Serena's average 110 mph (on grass!!) is going to be a big donut party for every male returner then?

I swear that if Serena would play an ATP player and hold her serve more than 2 times in a set, the haters would be out in the street, half-naked and flagellating themselves. Why do people get so emotionally bothered about this topic of a woman possibly competing against a man in tennis. Lets not forget that the Battle of the Sexes match is one of the most important moment in tennis history. I wish I had MTF account, so that I could posted this thread over there and getting some death threats...

tenn_ace
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:59 AM
So, one the the best returners in mens tennis (Berdych).

bwahaha... since when?

1jackson2001
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:00 AM
So, one the the best returners in mens tennis (Berdych) can't touch Nadal's average 115mph serve in 3 sets, but Serena's average 110 mph (on grass!!) is going to be a big donut party for every male returner then?

I swear that if Serena would play an ATP player and hold her serve more than 2 times in a set, the haters would be out in the street, half-naked and flagellating themselves. Why do people get so emotionally bothered about this topic of a woman possibly competing against a man in tennis. Lets not forget that the Battle of the Sexes match is one of the most important moment in tennis history. I wish I had MTF account, so that I could posted this thread over there and getting some death threats...
As already been stated before, it's not only about the speed. Nadal's serve has more action on them. Much harder to return.
Also, neither Nadal or Serena will be acing each time. So once the returned gets the ball in play...well, we know who will win from the baseline (or from other parts of the court).

Acinolbaj
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:02 AM
:tape:

i think even non-ATP player would be able to return women´s serve including Serena´s.

Navratil
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:04 AM
I doubt that Serena could trouble the top players but I think she could compete with some of the men in the main-draw.

switz
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:13 AM
this obsession with trying to prove women can compete with men is so tired. the women's game is very successful on it's on merits. trying to mount a lame case to say women can beat men doesn't add anything.

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:26 AM
this obsession with trying to prove women can compete with men is so tired. the women's game is very successful on it's on merits. trying to mount a lame case to say women can beat men doesn't add anything.


Perhaps, but counter-obsession that women can't and should never try to compete against men is equally tired. And nobody said Serena need to validate womens tennis by beating men, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

bandabou
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:34 AM
:sad: comments like this make me sad.

do you think serena gets anywhere near as much spin or work on the ball as the ATP players when serving? why do you think stosur is praised for her serve so much as she can kick a serve in, which all atp players can do. you will get absolutely nowhere in mens tennis without a good serve, and serena's compared to professional male players is a poor/average server.

And Stosur is a great server, huh?! :haha: U guys are funny!

inaand
Jul 5th, 2010, 10:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikS4laoS_WM :lol: :lol: :lol:

mure
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:06 AM
Yeah right.

No offense to Serena, but I would love to see Delpo or a Cillic to return her serve.

i'd love to see Rochus brothers trying to return her serve

Polikarpov
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:45 AM
So, one the the best returners in mens tennis (Berdych) can't touch Nadal's average 115mph serve in 3 sets, but Serena's average 110 mph (on grass!!) is going to be a big donut party for every male returner then?

Berdych, one of the best returners.:spit:

Nadal's serve is hardly the best in the men's tour. But the fact that he's a lefty, and could produce insane amount of spin on the ball makes it extremely difficult to control. Even Murray, one of the best returners today, had lots of trouble returning Nadal's mid-paced second serves.

Also, Nadal unlike Sampras or Federer, doesn't hold serve by firing aces and service winners left and right -- it's what he does with the ball after his opponent returns it. Nadal could serve in the high 80s or low 90s and still win majority of the points.

Serena's average first serve speed in the final was 105mph. The men are used to that pace. The men are also used to doing slice and block returns. And once they get in a point, I really doubt Serena would be able to hang in the rallies consistently. UE's will fly off of her racquet trying to control the men's heavy groundstrokes. What about her second serve? Do you believe she's capable of hitting four straight 110+mph first serves?

Serena has proven that she has the best serve ever in the women's game. But comparing/pitting it against that of the men is senseless and just plain ridiculous. Come on, even Sharapova managed to break her once.

sammy01
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:49 AM
i'd love to see Rochus brothers trying to return her serve

well they don't do bad against the greatest servers in the mens game, but i forgot serena's serve >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best atp servers :rolleyes:

miffedmax
Jul 5th, 2010, 12:41 PM
Hey, she already beat Roddick. So it must be true!

pierce85
Jul 5th, 2010, 12:54 PM
So, one the the best returners in mens tennis (Berdych) can't touch Nadal's average 115mph serve in 3 sets, but Serena's average 110 mph (on grass!!) is going to be a big donut party for every male returner then?

I swear that if Serena would play an ATP player and hold her serve more than 2 times in a set, the haters would be out in the street, half-naked and flagellating themselves. Why do people get so emotionally bothered about this topic of a woman possibly competing against a man in tennis. Lets not forget that the Battle of the Sexes match is one of the most important moment in tennis history. I wish I had MTF account, so that I could posted this thread over there and getting some death threats...

One of the best returners? Berdych is actually one of the worst returners among top players, dude you just lost all credibility, it's clear you know nothing about men's game

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:23 PM
One of the best returners? Berdych is actually one of the worst returners among top players, dude you just lost all credibility, it's clear you know nothing about men's game


Fine. How many times did Murray, who many would rate as THE BEST serve returner in the world today, break Nadal's "puffball" 115 mph serve in the semifinal? Once in 16 tries. Lesson - it is extremly difficult to break a well-located serve on grass, whether it is coming at 140 mph or "only" 110-115 mph.

narutos
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:23 PM
Chuvack go back in your cave, men are men and women are women unless you're trying to tell us sth about Serena:lol:

rockstar
Jul 5th, 2010, 01:33 PM
some people are so delusional :lol:
get your heads out of serena's ass!

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Serena's average first serve speed in the final was 105mph. The men are used to that pace. The men are also used to doing slice and block returns. And once they get in a point, I really doubt Serena would be able to hang in the rallies consistently. UE's will fly off of her racquet trying to control the men's heavy groundstrokes. What about her second serve? Do you believe she's capable of hitting four straight 110+mph first serves?

Serena has proven that she has the best serve ever in the women's game. But comparing/pitting it against that of the men is senseless and just plain ridiculous. Come on, even Sharapova managed to break her once.

I think you really REALLY overrestimate the men's groundstrokes and returns.

spencercarlos
Jul 5th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Fine. How many times did Murray, who many would rate as THE BEST serve returner in the world today, break Nadal's "puffball" 115 mph serve in the semifinal? Once in 16 tries. Lesson - it is extremly difficult to break a well-located serve on grass, whether it is coming at 140 mph or "only" 110-115 mph.
Keep the idiotic comments going. Until you realize Nadal´s holding serve is little related to his serving, but because of his uncanny ability to play points with an amazingly low unforced error ratio and great composure and ability to play the big points better than anybody, then you´ll maybe realize that he is a completly different monster than Serena is.. :help::wavey:

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:06 PM
Keep the idiotic comments going. Until you realize Nadal´s holding serve is little related to his serving, but because of his uncanny ability to play points with an amazingly low unforced error ratio and great composure and ability to play the big points better than anybody, then you´ll maybe realize that he is a completly different monster than Serena is.. :help::wavey:


Jeezis where did I say that Serena is the same monster that Nadal is. Pls read the thread a little more carefully and use your brain. Statement of this thread is that Serena would often be able to hold her serve on grass against ATP players. Not 98% of the time like Nadal, Feds, Roddick etc, but often, 50% of service games or more if serving well.

"Little related to his serving"?? Like everybody on grass, Nadal is winning almost all games on his serve, and losing almost all games on return. Of course it is related to the serve.

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:14 PM
i'd love to see Rochus brothers trying to return her serveOliver Rochus had matchpoints against Roger on grass, back when Roger was dominating on the surface.

"Little related to his serving"?? Like everybody on grass, Nadal is winning almost all games on his serve, and losing almost all games on return. Of course it is related to the serve.In Nadal's case, that's because his opponents' serves put him on the backfoot immediately. If players started rallies from neutral, Nadal would win most of them. And as egalite has pointed out, what the ATP players do to "weak" replies of serve is completely different to what the WTA players do. On the ATP, if you float a return mid pace and not too deep into the back of the court, you will be slaughtered. On the WTA, not so much.

If Serena serves 100% quality first serves, then she might hold once, maybe even twice (and this is already testimony to her serving abilities) because I don't think she would be competitive once a rally starts.

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:28 PM
On the ATP, if you float a return mid pace and not too deep into the back of the court, you will be slaughtered. On the WTA, not so much.


I definately disagree with that.

azinna
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:30 PM
^Yes, floating the return -- and simply neutralizing the big serve -- was Federer's tactic for much of his dominance. Lesser players started doing that less well to Roddick and other big servers, with strong results.

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:31 PM
I definately disagree with that.Unless you're talking about Stosur on clay, I haven't seen those balls being put away in a convincing fashion time and again by WTA players. And you've to take into consideration that the men move much better than the women.

^Yes, floating the return deep was Federer's tactic for much of his dominance."Not too deep", I said. And even then, we have to note that Roger plays defence to offence better than anyone except Nadal now.

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:40 PM
Lesser players started doing that less well to Roddick and other big servers, with strong results.Would those lesser players be able to reproduce that against Serena?

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:40 PM
I don't think she would be competitive once a rally starts.


I am glad you brought this up because it is a key question: When exactly does the rally start?

Serena is first strike player on any surface, but on grass especially. She is very good at finishing points in two shots (not including the serve) or less. On grass, in addition to her aces and unreturnables, Serena's serve will force lots of lame-duck replies, from men as well as from women. The question is, can Serena kill the lame duck reply in the first two strokes against an ATP? My guess is that often, she can.

It's not a rally until Serena is forced to hit her 3rd shot after the serve.

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:48 PM
I am glad you brought this up because it is a key question: When exactly does the rally start?

Serena is first strike player on any surface, but on grass especially. She is very good at finishing points in two shots (not including the serve) or less. On grass, in addition to her aces and unreturnables, Serena's serve will force lots of lame-duck replies, from men as well as from women. The question is, can Serena kill the lame duck reply in the first two strokes against an ATP? My guess is that often, she can.

It's not a rally until Serena is forced to hit her 3rd shot after the serve.I do think that Serena's first serves is good enough to make ATP players hit a lot of defensive returns of serve (most other WTA players' first serves would be eaten up). However, I don't think those returns would be lame-duck replies to Serena. They would mostly be floated into the back of the court, and Serena would not be able to consistently take advantage of this the way ATP players can.

She'd be taken apart on her second serves, and at best 50-50 on her first serves.

azinna
Jul 5th, 2010, 03:51 PM
Would those lesser players be able to reproduce that against Serena?

Actually on grass, these lesser players find it harder against an aggressive Roddick-type. Which is chuvack's point: that a well-serving and well-playing Serena on grass could make breaking her somewhat difficult if she's sharp with the put-aways.

Keep in mind, moby, that I agree with you in general: any Top # (100?) player on the ATP tourhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18107968&posted=1#) should be able to break Serena's serve, even in its improved version. Olivier is ranked 65 atm, Christophe: 160. Alternatively, I think Serena will actually be able to hold several service games against an ATP player ranked below 100.

I hate arguing when agreeing so perhaps we should reframe the question: do you think Serena could lose some sets 6-3 against Christophe Rochus?

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:01 PM
I hate arguing when agreeing so perhaps we should reframe the question: do you think Serena could lose some sets 6-3 against Christophe Rochus?No, I don't think so. She might hold once in a two set match, twice if she's lucky. We'll never know.
Also, Serena might be an aggressive Roddick type on the WTA, but she will not be one on the ATP.

I do think the "perfect woman" would be respectable on the ATP though: Serena's serve, Graf's movement and forehand, Navratilova's volleys, etc etc.

azinna
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:12 PM
No, I don't think so. She might hold once in a two set match, twice if she's lucky. We'll never know. Also, Serena might be an aggressive Roddick type on the WTA, but she will not be one on the ATP.

OK. I say in a two-set match on grass Serena can have several games where she is as good as a Rochus-type at holding serve. And against another Rochus-type she could certainly lose sets 6-3.

azinna
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:14 PM
I do think the "perfect woman" would be respectable on the ATP though: Serena's serve, Graf's movement and forehand, Navratilova's volleys, etc etc.

Oh, this is interesting. What about just a combo of Serena's current serving and decision-making with her own movement and ball striking from 2002-03?

chuvack
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:16 PM
I do think that Serena's first serves is good enough to make ATP players hit a lot of defensive returns of serve (most other WTA players' first serves would be eaten up). However, I don't think those returns would be lame-duck replies to Serena. They would mostly be floated into the back of the court, and Serena would not be able to consistently take advantage of this the way ATP players can.

She'd be taken apart on her second serves, and at best 50-50 on her first serves.


I would be rather surprised if even Nadal or Roger could win 50% of points against Serena's (in top form) 1st serve on grass - let alone some guy ranked below #100 managing that. Serena will have her share of aces and unreturnables, plus some 1st strike points (though its a shot in the dark to predict what percentage).

You also dont give Serena's second serves much credit. Unlike almost all WTA players, Serena actually has a good second serve. On grass I guess that she will manage to hit some forcing 2nd serves and win some of the points on first-strike capability.

darrinbaker00
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:35 PM
I would be rather surprised if even Nadal or Roger could win 50% of points against Serena's (in top form) 1st serve on grass - let alone some guy ranked below #100 managing that. Serena will have her share of aces and unreturnables, plus some 1st strike points (though its a shot in the dark to predict what percentage).

You also dont give Serena's second serves much credit. Unlike almost all WTA players, Serena actually has a good second serve. On grass I guess that she will manage to hit some forcing 2nd serves and win some of the points on first-strike capability.
You still believe in Santa Claus, don't you?

Danii's Law
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:35 PM
Judging by how many aces Nadal hit in the final, I would say her serve would give some male players trouble. They'd be able to break her, but serving like she did at Wimbledon she would score some good aces and nonreturnables.

I don't really like Serena, but her placement was fantastic. Like I said Nadal hit quite a few aces and he has no power, just placement.

spriwi
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:51 PM
:spit:
stupid statement

spriwi
Jul 5th, 2010, 04:56 PM
I'm guessing she would lose 70-68 in the 5th set ?

:lol::worship:

Thkmra
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:16 PM
Fine. How many times did Murray, who many would rate as THE BEST serve returner in the world today, break Nadal's "puffball" 115 mph serve in the semifinal? Once in 16 tries. Lesson - it is extremly difficult to break a well-located serve on grass, whether it is coming at 140 mph or "only" 110-115 mph.

:worship: So true!! Don't worry, actually your assesment is quite accurate, but because it's SERENA, people over-react, and ger their panties in a bunch as if you were asserting that she start winning rutinely on the ATP, when all you stated basically was if she were a guy, she'd, at least on grass have a decent serve to be competitive!!:rolleyes:

All logic,and rationale is thrown out the window when even her name is mentioned so...what'do ya' expect :shrug:

madmax
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:28 PM
threads like these make me hang my head in disbelief...you gotta wonder if these Serena fans EVER watched those lower ranked guys play and how good they actually are. Their speed and movement alone would be a too steep hill to climb for any woman, nevermind their power and stroke production.

Kworb
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:40 PM
Serena's serve was really that good this tournament. Women can hit plenty of service winners against men, you know. Ever watched mixed doubles?

moby
Jul 5th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Oh, this is interesting. What about just a combo of Serena's current serving and decision-making with her own movement and ball striking from 2002-03?That would be interesting. I don't know if Serena struck the ball much better then - I think she was liable to having her strokes break down far more often then it does now. But she did move a lot better, which puts her in offensive positions a lot more often.

I think the critical thing against the men would be the ability to come to net and finish points off with difficult volleys, and Serena's net game is rather mediocre then and now. So Navratilova's net game will be the key for the "perfect woman" to succeed.

Serena's serve was really that good this tournament. Women can hit plenty of service winners against men, you know. Ever watched mixed doubles?Returning serve in doubles is a different kettle of fish though. You can't afford to float the ball back. In singles, you can. In doubles, you have to be fairly aggressive off serves that don't allow you to be aggressive.

Andiyan
Jul 5th, 2010, 06:52 PM
Delusional thread starter...

Dominic
Jul 5th, 2010, 07:23 PM
Serena's serve was really that good this tournament. Women can hit plenty of service winners against men, you know. Ever watched mixed doubles?

I know lol, some ppl are just so stupid, In mixed doubles, alot of the girls hit service winners and even aces and some girls can actually return man's serves just fine. Ive also seen girls outhit guys in some rallies.

azinna
Jul 5th, 2010, 07:42 PM
That would be interesting. I don't know if Serena struck the ball much better then - I think she was liable to having her strokes break down far more often then it does now. But she did move a lot better, which puts her in offensive positions a lot more often.

I think the critical thing against the men would be the ability to come to net and finish points off with difficult volleys, and Serena's net game is rather mediocre then and now. So Navratilova's net game will be the key for the "perfect woman" to succeed.

I agree that Serena's 2002 movement allowed her to be more aggressive. But I also think her decision-making and point construction are significantly better now, and that partly explains why she ends up with better winners/errors ratios.

How does one, then, evaluate her ball striking abilities? Lots of things have changed, including equipment and the competition. But back in 2002-03 she could hit remarkably angled winners almost at will. Now, even when presented with sitters, it's less a sure thing.

Against an ATP player, again ranked below 100, a top female player's real chance of holding multiple service games rests in ending the point by the 3rd stroke. So I feel a combo of Serena's 2010 serving and 2002 movement + ball striking, all clicking, would really give that female player a shot at a respectable set (i.e. a 6-3 loss). Perhaps a better shot, I'd say, than a combo of Serena's serve and Martina's net game. Right now, too many Top 150 male players can do fair imitations of Agassi when presented with a target by a net-charging player.

wayitis
Jul 5th, 2010, 08:59 PM
I would be rather surprised if even Nadal or Roger could win 50% of points against Serena's (in top form) 1st serve on grass - let alone some guy ranked below #100 managing that.

OMG, I gather from previous posters that you are not even a Serena fan, so it is not a question of being a delusional fanatic, but rather of being completely clueless :tape: :help: ... DO you think she beats her male practice partner routinaly? Coz I heard quite the opposite..

nfl46
Jul 5th, 2010, 09:33 PM
Serena wouldn't be ranked in the Top 100 if she were playing for ATP. Even the lower rank players are bigger, stronger and faster than even the top WTA women. Men are naturally stronger than women, duh. Let's NOT be stupid. We all know women can't compete with men in certain sports...same can be said with the WNBA/NBA.

Osomec
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:35 PM
Oliver Golding's fastest serve at Wimbledon was faster than the fastest women's serve ever. Serena might be able to give a top junior boy a decent match, watching her against a top man would be gruesome.

Osomec
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:39 PM
I forgot to mention wingspan.

I just don't know why people even try to compare mens tennis to womens tennis. Would you both sexes in running, swimming or shotput? It's just stupid and unnecessary.

How did the equal pay crowd decide how much to pay the women, except by comparing men's and women's tennis? Until the women concede that they do not deserve equal pay, people will be entitled to make all the unfavourable comparisons they want. Reality has to kick back somehow.

xan
Jul 5th, 2010, 11:51 PM
Serena seems to think differently to some here
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-sport/2010/07/05/serena-williams-blasts-back-at-andy-murray-i-d-slam-a-man-115875-22382900/

Serena Williams blasts back at Andy Murray: I'd slam a man


...British ace Murray, 23, insists the women's game, which only plays the best of three sets, is hugely inferior.
He caused controversy by claiming that leading women's players would not beat anyone inside the men's top 1,000.
But Williams said: "If anyone is going to hang there then it would be me or Venus because we have more of a power game and are seriously fast.
"I would have to go to bootcamp though - no sweets, no nothing for about two months - then I think I would have a good chance against someone way outside the top 100.
"I'd have to get seriously fit and then play seriously well."
But Williams admitted most of her rivals on the WTA tour would have little hope against their male counterparts.

sdtoot
Jul 6th, 2010, 12:07 AM
OK this goes back quite a long time ago but it has some relevance here:-

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=21533

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html

azinna
Jul 6th, 2010, 12:31 AM
^That was classic. Two young, brash teenagers learned a few things that afternoon. Always good when a surfeit of confidence is combined with a willingness to learn. As a result, Serena and Venus have matured considerably since then, in both how they play and what they claim.

miffedmax
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:15 AM
I agree that Serena's 2002 movement allowed her to be more aggressive. But I also think her decision-making and point construction are significantly better now, and that partly explains why she ends up with better winners/errors ratios.

How does one, then, evaluate her ball striking abilities? Lots of things have changed, including equipment and the competition. But back in 2002-03 she could hit remarkably angled winners almost at will. Now, even when presented with sitters, it's less a sure thing.

Against an ATP player, again ranked below 100, a top female player's real chance of holding multiple service games rests in ending the point by the 3rd stroke. So I feel a combo of Serena's 2010 serving and 2002 movement + ball striking, all clicking, would really give that female player a shot at a respectable set (i.e. a 6-3 loss). Perhaps a better shot, I'd say, than a combo of Serena's serve and Martina's net game. Right now, too many Top 150 male players can do fair imitations of Agassi when presented with a target by a net-charging player.

There's a huge difference between being able to hold your serve in some games--which I have conceded Serena could conceivably do against some of the lower rated male players--and the OP's assertion at ATP players would have "major" problems breaking it.

azinna
Jul 6th, 2010, 01:59 AM
^Agreed, miffedmax.

chuvack
Jul 6th, 2010, 08:04 AM
There's a huge difference between being able to hold your serve in some games--which I have conceded Serena could conceivably do against some of the lower rated male players--and the OP's assertion at ATP players would have "major" problems breaking it.


I don't think it would just be against "some of the lower-rated" male players.

The key point here is that the holding of serve by Serena depends much more on how well Serena serves, than on who is the returner. This is just how grass court tennis works. On grass, an unreturnable serve is an unreturnable serve. Once you arrive at certain level of serving, it doesn't matter if its Federer down at the other end of the court, or Rochus, or Zvonareva, or you or me. The returner - be it man, woman, horse, dog, robot, whatever - just physically has a very small chance to win the point.

As for my OP statement about "major" problems, I admit that was a slight exageration (for the sake of drawing more attention to the thread - you know how things work around here), but only a slight one. If Serena would be serving at the level which she did in this Wimby, I don't think there is any ATP player who could break her serve more than half of the time, and my best guess would be more like 1 quarter of the time.

The Witch-king
Jul 6th, 2010, 09:48 AM
Serena would kick all y'alls faves pootie tangs

Tennisstar86
Jul 6th, 2010, 10:10 PM
1. Do either of you play tennis?

2. Have either of you seen top-level NCAA men's tennis before?

Yes, I do play...and yes I have seen top-level NCAA tennis.... lol A nicely place serve in the corner of the box or short and sliding outwide is unreturnable unless its going 50mph... regardless if its a man or woman serving it. or if a man or woman is returning it

AcesHigh
Jul 6th, 2010, 10:54 PM
Sometimes, I really don't think some people here are watching the same tennis I am :shrug:

Serena's serve is nice, but it doesn't have the action you'll see on the ATP. She also serves aces and unreturnable serves to women that she would see coming back from a male player. And like people have said, once a rally has started, she would be at a great disadvantage.

And to Tennisstar86's point, the difference between a man or woman returning is VASTLY DIFFERENT. For one, there is wingspan, 2, there's so much that goes into a return from reaction time, hand-eye coordination, quickness, etc. 3rd, it's not just placement but it's spin and how much action is on the ball, as I said... once it hits the court the ball does not necessarily bounce or move the same way. So if you're used to serves that are superior to Serena's, it's not like hers are going to bother you too much.. especially if you know all you have to do is keep the ball in play.

Serena would probably be okay holding against guys outside the 500. She could hold a few games per set serving her absolute best.

OsloErik
Jul 6th, 2010, 10:59 PM
I'm sure this has been said: the men wouldn't be clubbing returns for winners like they would against most women, but the moment they get the ball back, they are at a huge advantage in any rally. She'd last in most points longer than any woman (probably ever), but she would not be winning games against "Male ATP player" (redundant) inside the top 50.

Stamp Paid
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:08 PM
Serena is too slow.
Id rather see Venus play a man than her.

The Prophet
Jul 6th, 2010, 11:44 PM
Sometimes, I really don't think some people here are watching the same tennis I am :shrug:

Serena's serve is nice, but it doesn't have the action you'll see on the ATP. She also serves aces and unreturnable serves to women that she would see coming back from a male player. And like people have said, once a rally has started, she would be at a great disadvantage.

And to Tennisstar86's point, the difference between a man or woman returning is VASTLY DIFFERENT. For one, there is wingspan, 2, there's so much that goes into a return from reaction time, hand-eye coordination, quickness, etc. 3rd, it's not just placement but it's spin and how much action is on the ball, as I said... once it hits the court the ball does not necessarily bounce or move the same way. So if you're used to serves that are superior to Serena's, it's not like hers are going to bother you too much.. especially if you know all you have to do is keep the ball in play.

Serena would probably be okay holding against guys outside the 500. She could hold a few games per set serving her absolute best.

To Chuvack:

Read the above post and learn something. :wavey:

tennnisfannn
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:00 AM
Didn't serena say she has trouble reading and returning sasha's serve- her hitting partner, yet he is not a professional.

The Kaz
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:49 AM
ATP #200 def. Serena 6-1 6-1

The 2 games she won woud be pity games given to her.

The Kaz
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:52 AM
Serena seems to think differently to some here
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-sport/2010/07/05/serena-williams-blasts-back-at-andy-murray-i-d-slam-a-man-115875-22382900/
[B]

Serena is delusional :cheer:

croat123
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:57 AM
this thread is stupid. no chance, none at all. it's just a different level all-together

Slutiana
Jul 7th, 2010, 05:58 AM
There's a huge difference between being able to hold your serve in some games--which I have conceded Serena could conceivably do against some of the lower rated male players--and the OP's assertion at ATP players would have "major" problems breaking it.
I agree.
Serena is too slow.
Id rather see Venus play a man than her.
So you can watch her UE herself into next week? :p

jjlove
Jul 7th, 2010, 09:18 AM
Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think I read some years ago that Venus played against Pato Clavet once and she was beaten badly. This was when the sisters got into the tour and were saying that they could beat ATP players. Does anyone remember this?

Stamp Paid
Jul 7th, 2010, 09:33 AM
I love how on one hand, so many posters are saying Serena serves like a man, and she should play on the ATP Tour because she has an unfair advantage over the girls
then on the other hand, Serena has absolutely no chance against the men and its ludicrous to even make that assertion :lol: People just cant make up their minds :)

narutos
Jul 7th, 2010, 09:42 AM
I love how on one hand, so many posters are saying Serena serves like a man, and she should play on the ATP Tour because she has an unfair advantage over the girls
then on the other hand, Serena has absolutely no chance against the men and its ludicrous to even make that assertion :lol: People just cant make up their minds :)

Don't take post so seriously yeah she is serving big but not for men let's be realistic.

The Witch-king
Jul 7th, 2010, 10:27 AM
I agree.

So you can watch her UE herself into next week? :p

Its funny because some low ranked woman who cant hit a forehand is probably more dangerous for her than a man:help::help::help: