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View Full Version : Lindsay says Carlos has been coaching Justine the whole match


Bijoux0021
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:23 PM
"And if you watch him, it's easy to see his signals to Justine." "Clijsters is the opposite. She tries to figure things out on her own."

cellophane
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Tell us something we don't know.

Elwin.
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:24 PM
That's so true.

LudwigDvorak
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:25 PM
She said it last match as well against Petrova. That Justine gets coached from the first ball. It is the truth.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:25 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.

Ferg
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:25 PM
Shes right. :shrug:

Mina Vagante
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:25 PM
Yes we know...

John.
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:26 PM
Telling it like it is

timafi
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:27 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

SAEKeithSerena
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:27 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.
:lol::lol::lol::worship:

RenaSlam.
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:27 PM
I would be surprised if he wasn't coaching her the entire match :shrug:

heartBREAKeRS
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:28 PM
Wouldn't be nice to looked Carlos in the looker-room and we'll she if Justine can make it on her own

DefyingGravity
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Gotta love how MJ and Darren Cahill have sidestepped it.

MJ: Carlos has been animated during the entire match. He really lets Justine know what he's thinking.

Way to be passive-aggressive about it.

Elenarulez
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:29 PM
Its so annoying :tape: When does she get a warning? WHEN?

Ferg
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:30 PM
I wish it was the same umpire who gave Nadal that warning, he would be all over this.

nevetssllim
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:30 PM
He always does.

LCS
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:30 PM
And she said she doesn't recall a time where Carlos has been warned for coaching...

soomaal
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Lindsay just said that one of the great mysteries are whether umpires have been told to not give warnings to carlos!!

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Please, Justine can play without Carlos. Carlos doesn't coach her, he tries to tell her to calm down, that's ALL. He said it himself. Gosh.

LightWarrior
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:31 PM
"Forehand !" Carlos keeps saying to Hénin...

Matt01
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:32 PM
:yawn:

Shinjiro
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:32 PM
One of the reasons I struggle to warm up to her.

LCS
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:32 PM
Please, Justine can play without Carlos. Carlos doesn't coach her, he tries to tell her to calm down, that's ALL. He said it himself. Gosh.

:spit: delusional

joão.
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:32 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:35 PM
Nothing new there.


He made no secret of it.
He spoke about in recent article, one of many before that.

Mina Vagante
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:36 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

:spit:

doktor
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:36 PM
breaking news...

glad she's got the balls to call her on it

doni1212
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:38 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.

:rolls:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:38 PM
I wish it was the same umpire who gave Nadal that warning, he would be all over this.
Yeah.
That umpire is not intimidated.
He stood his ground and rattled Nadal

Dave.
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:39 PM
Lindsay also said she thinks players should be allowed to be coached.

BuTtErFrEnA
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:41 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

exactly :lol:

where's the ump from nadal's match lol

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:42 PM
"Forehand !" Carlos keeps saying to Hénin...

And ? Juju's Forehand is terrible.

tim2502
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:42 PM
truth

debopero
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Lindsay also said she thinks players should be allowed to be coached.

I thought she said she didn't like it.

Infiniti2001
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:49 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.

:rolls:

Libertango
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:50 PM
I do love Lindsay. We all know it, but at least she actually said it.

Actually, I think she made it subtly obvious she prefers Clijsters to Henin, a few times.

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 02:54 PM
Lindsay also said she thinks players should be allowed to be coached.
Perhaps Linsay said that because, despite numerous article about it, Carlos-Henin tandem have been getting away with it for a long time.
Making a mockery of the rule.

So Lindsay is saying, if the rule is not going to be enforced, get rid of it.
It is a reaction of frustration, rather than a statement of conviction.

nfl46
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:11 PM
Once a CHEATER, always a cheater!

barboza
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:21 PM
We all know that anyway

kiwifan
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:26 PM
That's like decade old news...the new news is when someone is actually going to do something about it...:yawn:

ClijstersGOAT
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Perhaps Linsay said that because, despite numerous article about it, Carlos-Henin tandem have been getting away with it for a long time.
Making a mockery of the rule.

So Lindsay is saying, if the rule is not going to be enforced, get rid of it.
It is a reaction of frustration, rather than a statement of conviction.

That's exactly what she said. Either the rule should be enforced (she said policed), or the coach should be sitting on the chair and talking to the player at breakes.

Conor
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:29 PM
You do realise you're not telling us anything new whatsoever.

barboza
Jun 28th, 2010, 03:34 PM
I thought she said she didn't like it.

She said on-court coaching should be allowed, not coaching from the stands.

tonybotz
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:28 PM
lindsay is turning into an old bitter bitch. she always had an attitude, but lately she's been annoying.

Chakvenus
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:31 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Bayo
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:33 PM
She said it last match as well against Petrova. That Justine gets coached from the first ball. It is the truth.

And against Barrois. Only Lindsay and the Brit were super-catty about it in that one. "Oh look, Carlos has something in his eye there." :lol:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:36 PM
She said on-court coaching should be allowed, not coaching from the stands.
You are missing the entire context.
See post #41

Kunal
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:56 PM
hot dang...

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 28th, 2010, 04:57 PM
You better spill that tea Lindsay :lol:

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:00 PM
You are missing the entire context.
See post #41

LOL your "context" is completely wrong. :lol: I watched it, and she specifically said she thinks coaching should be allowed because it's allowed in most sports (like football/"soccer"), not just because of your "context".

She said IF they were going to enforce such a silly rule then it should be policed properly... but she'd rather they did away with it altogether.

serenafan08
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:02 PM
Tell us something we don't know.
Took the words right out of my mouth.

And in other breaking news....water is wet.
:lol: :haha: :yeah: Quote of the day!

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:03 PM
And against Barrois. Only Lindsay and the Brit were super-catty about it in that one. "Oh look, Carlos has something in his eye there." :lol:

:haha:

I love Lindsay, she is a bitch but in a take no bullshit way.

tucker1989
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:05 PM
Once a CHEATER, always a cheater!

Amen to that

thrust
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:11 PM
Wouldn't be nice to looked Carlos in the looker-room and we'll she if Justine can make it on her own

Actually, as a Justine fan, I wish she would ditch Carlos and his new game style. If it is that obvious that he is breaking rules, why don't they warn him or kick him out of the players box? If they allow him, or any other coaches, to break the rules it is the officials fault.

mykarma
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:13 PM
"And if you watch him, it's easy to see his signals to Justine." "Clijsters is the opposite. She tries to figure things out on her own." Even Mary Carillo said yesterday that Carlos giving Justine signals was cheating.

jefrilibra
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:13 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

Now snap! :rolls:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:14 PM
Actually, as a Justine fan, I wish she would ditch Carlos and his new game style. If it is that obvious that he is breaking rules, why don't they warn him of kick him out of the players box? If they allow him, or any other coaches, to break the rules it is the officials fault.
You are correct.

Carlos made no secret that she has no plan of stopping.

She was uneasy about continuing this, but after consulting with a specialist, he concluded it would be unwise to stop, because Justine needs the constant approval or disapproval to keep her confidence.

They need the umpire who officiate Nadal match yesterday.
He went to-to-toe with Nadal on alleged coaching from "Uncle Tony"

VeeReeDavJCap81
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:15 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

Gotta love Phoebe :rolls:

thrust
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:15 PM
I do love Lindsay. We all know it, but at least she actually said it.

Actually, I think she made it subtly obvious she prefers Clijsters to Henin, a few times.

Lindsay and Kim are very friendly, not a subtly obvious fact.

azinna
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:18 PM
And Justine actually doesn't think it's wrong...

tennnisfannn
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:19 PM
yah! Lindsay finally has haters!

Serenita
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:20 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/zvy79l.jpg

And in other breaking news....water is wet.


:spit::haha:

terjw
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:42 PM
Linds said that? I'm still not convinced she gets specific coaching but it's more an encouragement thing. She isn't called for it by the umpires. And if there are signals and she does get specific coaching - it's the least effective and worst coaching or signalling system ever which is why I'm not convinced.

At Wimbledon today she started off well against Kim and it went downhill. Kim works it out on her own and improves while Justine supposedly getting coached as to what she's doing wrong gets worse. Hmm. What sort of coaching is that? At RG against Masha - same thing how she went downhill whilst they were playing on court when she is the one supposedly getting illegal coaching.

I vividly remember a match about 3 years ago against Jelena when Jelena got injured in the 3rd set but carried on playing. She had real problems moving and she certainly couldn't turn. Everyone could see it - but Justine and Carlos had this plan not to give Jelena any angles and she didn't change and kept on hitting the ball straight to Jelena. :lol::lol: The commentators said Justine hasn't noticed JJ can't move - all she has to do is make her move and she can't turn. Everyone watching could see it except Justine. If Carlos had been coaching - it was obvious what to signal but Justine kept hitting straight to Jelena. She won in the end but it was close instead of a walk in the park. Again if specific detailed coaching really exists - what sort of coaching is that? :tape:

Optima
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:47 PM
Linds said that? I'm still not convinced she gets specific coaching but it's more an encouragement thing. She isn't called for it by the umpires. And if there are signals and she does get specific coaching - it's the least effective and worst coaching or signalling system ever which is why I'm not convinced.

At Wimbledon today she started off well against Kim and it went downhill. Kim works it out on her own and improves while Justine supposedly getting coached as to what she's doing wrong gets worse. Hmm. What sort of coaching is that? At RG against Masha - same thing how she went downhill whilst they were playing on court when she is the one supposedly getting illegal coaching.

I vividly remember a match about 3 years ago against Jelena when Jelena got injured in the 3rd set but carried on playing. She had real problems moving and she certainly couldn't turn. Everyone could see it - but Justine and Carlos had this plan not to give Jelena any angles and she didn't change and kept on hitting the ball straight to Jelena. :lol::lol: The commentators said Justine hasn't noticed JJ can't move - all she has to do is make her move and she can't turn. Everyone watching could see it except Justine. If Carlos had been coaching - it was obvious what to signal but Justine kept hitting straight to Jelena. She won in the end but it was close instead of a walk in the park. Again if specific detailed coaching really exists - what sort of coaching is that? :tape:

You're one of the few people on this board with a brain.

danieln1
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:56 PM
Only the chair umpire in her matches doesn´t see this... it´s just ridiculous

Lindsay bold enough to say the truth

ireneteri
Jun 28th, 2010, 05:57 PM
he is coaching but he is not the only one, anyways, she lost , it doesnt matter.

harloo
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:00 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.


:haha::haha:

Bruno71
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:05 PM
yah! Lindsay finally has haters!


Are you new?

Serendy Willick
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:07 PM
If they think womens tennis is a joke now, they sure will if they allow coaching during the freakin breaks.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:39 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.


Truly rflol!

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:43 PM
Lindsay also said she thinks players should be allowed to be coached.


Sometimes you're right...sometimes ur wrong.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:49 PM
And Justine actually doesn't think it's wrong...


Seriously? Many sociapaths (not that I'm comparing) don't think killing is wrong...

Amanda
Jun 28th, 2010, 06:50 PM
Nothing new...still a cheat!

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by azinna http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18067031#post18067031)
And Justine actually doesn't think it's wrong...

Seriously? Many sociapaths (not that I'm comparing) don't think killing is wrong...

Few(I mean very few) have said, if the umpire did not call it, it must not be illegal.
Even though Carlos has acknowldged it is not something she wants to continue doing. but because Justine needs it she has to continue doing it.

Another analogy is. I know it is not mine, but if I have not been caught, it ain't stealing.

Thanx4nothin
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Andrew castle got very excited when he caught Carlos mouthing 'forehand' and suggested a 'Carlos Cam'

If only he'd got such coaching in that epic 3rd round at Queens....

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:21 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.

mykarma
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:29 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.
:help:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:31 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.
That is weak. Weak comparison.

Coaching from the stand is banned. Period.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.


You really don't understand the difference? Well...one is legal the other isn't. Legal meaning within the framework of the rules of the game...Illegal meaning outside the frame work of the rules of the game. If Justine brought notes we wouldn't have to have this discussion after every match she plays.


Hope that helps.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by azinna http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18067031#post18067031)
And Justine actually doesn't think it's wrong...



Few(I mean very few) have said, if the umpire did not call it, it must not be illegal.
Even though Carlos has acknowldged it is not something she wants to continue doing. but because Justine needs it she has to continue doing it.

Another analogy is. I know it is not mine, but if I have not been caught, it ain't stealing.


LOL...I know right! But some subscribe to the adage "If you ain't cheating you ain't trying"

nhissan
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:39 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.

Please tell me you're kidding :tape:

oddkayla
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:41 PM
At this point the coaching is harmful in many respects to Justine. First, it means she has no confidence in her own strengths, and smart players can surely smell that? Particularly now at her age! The other is that over the course of her career it has somewhat hurt her reputation and intergrity and its not good for her. All in all it is not necessary because she is a great player!

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:42 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.

I hope you aren't a lawyer because if I was a judge I'd have you thrown out of the courtroom for that defense. That was just HORRIBLE!!! :rolleyes: Serena gives herself reminders of what she needs to do and isn't helped at a tight or difficult time in the match when someone from the stands can tell her "hit to the backhand" or "hit to the forehand"

moby
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:42 PM
Justine stubbornly sticks to a losing game plan, more than any other player this side of Venus Williams. This is not the behaviour of someone who is being coached.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:43 PM
At this point the coaching is harmful in many respects to Justine. First, it means she has no confidence in her own strengths, and smart players can surely smell that? Particularly now at her age! The other is that over the course of her career it has somewhat hurt her reputation and intergrity and its not good for her. All in all it is not necessary because she is a great player!

Its actually disappointing and soured Justine's comeback for me because I thought she was this whole new person with great confidence. Yet, those creepy stares with Carlos still happen and the coaching is cheating plain and simple!! NO WAY AROUND IT!!

Serenita
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:45 PM
You really don't understand the difference? Well...one is legal the other isn't. Legal meaning within the framework of the rules of the game...Illegal meaning outside the frame work of the rules of the game. If Justine brought notes we wouldn't have to have this discussion after every match she plays.


Hope that helps.
It wont help. He's to blinde to see what the diffrence is
:sobbing:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:50 PM
At this point the coaching is harmful in many respects to Justine. First, it means she has no confidence in her own strengths, and smart players can surely smell that? Particularly now at her age! The other is that over the course of her career it has somewhat hurt her reputation and intergrity and its not good for her. All in all it is not necessary because she is a great player!
Since this came out few years ago, I thought the embarrassment and potential blemish it would cause to an other wise excellent career, would compell her to cut her losses and save her reputation in the process by putting a quick end to this.

Instead, what do they do?
They dig in.
Carlos talks about it in details in the press, and confirms at that this point there is more benefits staying the course, than stopping now.

Lucemferre
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:51 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.

:spit:

moby
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:54 PM
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.This is not the same thing at all.

Notes are static, not dynamic, even if they were written in a "seek your own adventure" type format.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 07:56 PM
Justine stubbornly sticks to a losing game plan, more than any other player this side of Venus Williams. This is not the behaviour of someone who is being coached.

Great coaching isn't deminished by poor execution. BTW at least Venus sticks to her losing game plan...she's not cheating her opponent or the game by asking coaches to assist her with her losing plan. Guess that's the wonderment of independence. If you loose ur to blame but when you win then you have the confidence and self respect of knowing it was your accomplishment.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:10 PM
Yawn... old hat!

Do I (a fan) hate that she does it? Yes. But if everybody that is sane thinks it stinks, do something about it. Get the rule enforced, penalize them, instead of whining and mud-slinging to no avail. Lindsay is right to feel that if a rule is not taken seriously, it should be done away with.

Frankly, I have to say that she is the worst pupil on court, if she is being coached. She misses more serves the more Carlos eggs her on, and loses any semblance of strategy.

Lapin
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:12 PM
Lindsay just said that one of the great mysteries are whether umpires have been told to not give warnings to carlos!!
Well, good for Lindsay for talking about it instead of turning a blind eye like the umpires do; it does make you wonder if they've been asked not to say anything. I've watched Carlos when I've been at matches and the communication between them is constant and specific, such as 'volley!' etc. The excuse that Carlos gives is really lame and IMHO is a smoke screen. The rules are the rules, I don't understand why Carlos and Justine have never been called up for it, it's so obvious.... :(

moby
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Frankly, I have to say that she is the worst pupil on court, if she is being coached. She misses more serves the more Carlos eggs her on, and loses any semblance of strategy.That's why her opponents don't complain about it to the umpire. :crying2:

ptitnavet
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:21 PM
Well. If Carlos wasn't in the crowd at her matches, Henin would never have the career she has because she would be so lost alone.

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:23 PM
You really don't understand the difference? Well...one is legal the other isn't. Legal meaning within the framework of the rules of the game...Illegal meaning outside the frame work of the rules of the game. If Justine brought notes we wouldn't have to have this discussion after every match she plays.


Hope that helps.

If the letter of the rules is your only defence, then I'd better not see you ever hammering Justine for 'The Hand' ever again, because it's definitely not written in the official rules that you have to alert the umpire to their mistakes.

Bringing coaching notes onto court isn't against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit of the rules. Like I said, it's a loophole.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:26 PM
If the letter of the rules is your only defence, then I'd better not see you ever hammering Justine for 'The Hand' ever again, because it's definitely not written in the official rules that you have to alert the umpire to their mistakes.

Bringing coaching notes onto court isn't against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit of the rules. Like I said, it's a loophole.

No thats just common human decency and sportsmanship. :wavey::rolleyes:

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:27 PM
No thats just common human decency and sportsmanship. :wavey::rolleyes:

But according to "Serena y Monica", if something isn't against the rules then it's completely fine.

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:28 PM
It's so annoying to talk about it all the time, we get it :tape: If you knew Justine, you would not say that.. I mean, yes Carlos tries to coach her, but Justine doesn't listen to him, she is stubborn, she has a gameplan BEFORE the match, then plays alone on the court. I am sure Carlos could facepalm during some matchs (Sharapova, Stosur at RG : she changed her tactics DURING the match :confused: ) , that's why he shouts at her, but she doesn't listen to him :lol:
She even asks him to shut up, she only wants some support, not coaching. It's obvious. Henin is an insecure girl, nothing more.

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:29 PM
If the letter of the rules is your only defence, then I'd better not see you ever hammering Justine for 'The Hand' ever again, because it's definitely not written in the official rules that you have to alert the umpire to their mistakes.

Bringing coaching notes onto court isn't against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit of the rules. Like I said, it's a loophole.

Serena has a notebook where she has some coaching reminders....

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:32 PM
By the way, when was the last time ANYONE on the WTA was called for coaching? I think it's pretty clear that the umpires have reached an understanding that they won't enforce the rule for women's Slam matches, because it's 100% allowed at all other WTA events.

narutos
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:33 PM
Serena has a notebook where she has some coaching reminders....

Oh you're alive:lol:

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:34 PM
Oh you're alive:lol:

I wasn't there. But before leaving, I wrote some messages after Juju Heng's loss :lol:

LudwigDvorak
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:35 PM
By the way, when was the last time ANYONE on the WTA was called for coaching? I think it's pretty clear that the umpires have reached an understanding that they won't enforce the rule for women's Slam matches, because it's 100% allowed at all other WTA events.

2007 Australian Open both Chakvetadze and Sharapova got called for it.

I remember Jankovic being called for it somewhere as well because she got mad and told the umpire Alves(?) that it was only encouragement. I believe it might have been here at Wimbledon.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:42 PM
If the letter of the rules is your only defence, then I'd better not see you ever hammering Justine for 'The Hand' ever again, because it's definitely not written in the official rules that you have to alert the umpire to their mistakes.

Bringing coaching notes onto court isn't against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit of the rules. Like I said, it's a loophole.

Only in your imagination. It isn't against the letter or spirit of the rule to bring notes. Serena isn't the first or last to do so. Not one commentator or ex-player has ever implied that notes to oneself is in anyway against either the letter or spirit of the coaching rule. Besides have you seen her notes... mostly motivational b/s.

You are f'ed up. The umpire didn't make a mistake...his job is to watch the ball...i.e he's looking at the server. Justine's job once he looked at her for confirmation to Serena's accusation was to tell the truth...a lie of ommision is still a lie...(I'm a total spirit of the law kinda girl), I'm through with you...cause in the words of Johnny Mac.."u cannot be serious"

and BTW, Notes are legal...so why doesn't Justine just bring those if it's the same. Cause it's NOT! Notes can't tell you your opponent has missed 6 backhands. Or that she can't serve out wide so cut off that serve...or to serve up the middle cause your opponent has missed three in a row but again...you Justine and Carlos know this.

SV_Fan
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:44 PM
Doesn't Serena write the notes in her book herself ?

That is a huge difference, than being coached on court.

Not to mention I think Keisha wouldn be able to help but so much.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:49 PM
But according to "Serena y Monica", if something isn't against the rules then it's completely fine.

Am I Serena y Monica? How bout you apply that to that poster. KThanksbye!! :wavey:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Doesn't Serena write the notes in her book herself ?

That is a huge difference, than being coached on court.

Not to mention I think Keisha wouldn be able to help but so much.
For those who don't know, I believe Yetunde is Serena sister who died few years back.

That year or the following year , Serena just wrote her name.

Correction: Her deceased sister name is Yetunde.

vejh
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:51 PM
yetunde was also called keisha?

SV_Fan
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:54 PM
For those who don't know, I believe Keisha is Serena sister who died few years back.
That year or the following year , Serena just wrote name.

Tragic

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Am I Serena y Monica? How bout you apply that to that poster. KThanksbye!! :wavey:

So you agre Serena bringing notes onto court is breaking the spirit of the (imo stupid) coaching rules?

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by dsanders06 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18068329#post18068329)
But according to "Serena y Monica", if something isn't against the rules then it's completely fine.


Well I can see why you like Justine. Cause I've never said anything close to this.

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by dsanders06 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18068329#post18068329)
But according to "Serena y Monica", if something isn't against the rules then it's completely fine.


Well I can see why you like Justine. Cause I've never said anything close to this.

You said the difference between Justine getting coaching and Serena bringing notes onto court is purely because one is technically legal and one technically isn't (even though both are against the spirit of the rule).

Btw, I remember at a match at the US Open in either '07 or '08, Serena actually did have her notes confiscated by the umpire. So clearly, by some umpires' interpretations, Serena's actions aren't only against the spirit of the rules but are perhaps also against the letter of the rules.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:59 PM
2007 Australian Open both Chakvetadze and Sharapova got called for it.

I remember Jankovic being called for it somewhere as well because she got mad and told the umpire Alves(?) that it was only encouragement. I believe it might have been here at Wimbledon.

It was at AO 2008, against Razzano or someone. Snezana was mouthing 'Ajde/Idemo JJ' etc etc, and Alvez slapped her with a violation. JJ was pretty ticked and said 'Do you speak Serbian' or something like that...

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:03 PM
NO...you said this
Originally Posted by dsanders06 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18067920#post18067920)
Lmao at the some of the idiot Serena fans here. The irony is Serena CONSTANTLY brings pre-prepared coaching notes onto court with her in her matches - how is that any different to what Justine/Carlos do? And I don't blame Serena - she exploits a loophole in the "no coaching" rule, and fair play to her.


Then I said this...



You really don't understand the difference? Well...one is legal the other isn't. Legal meaning within the framework of the rules of the game...Illegal meaning outside the frame work of the rules of the game. If Justine brought notes we wouldn't have to have this discussion after every match she plays.


Hope that helps.

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:03 PM
yetunde was also called keisha?
I think you are right.
I stand corrected.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:07 PM
Then you Dsander again tried to minimize Justine's behavior with this


Originally Posted by dsanders06 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18068302#post18068302)
If the letter of the rules is your only defence, then I'd better not see you ever hammering Justine for 'The Hand' ever again, because it's definitely not written in the official rules that you have to alert the umpire to their mistakes.

Bringing coaching notes onto court isn't against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit of the rules. Like I said, it's a loophole.


To which I replied this...


Only in your imagination. It isn't against the letter or spirit of the rule to bring notes. Serena isn't the first or last to do so. Not one commentator or ex-player has ever implied that notes to oneself is in anyway against either the letter or spirit of the coaching rule. Besides have you seen her notes... mostly motivational b/s.

You are f'ed up. The umpire didn't make a mistake...his job is to watch the ball...i.e he's looking at the server. Justine's job once he looked at her for confirmation to Serena's accusation was to tell the truth...a lie of ommision is still a lie...(I'm a total spirit of the law kinda girl), I'm through with you...cause in the words of Johnny Mac.."u cannot be serious"

and BTW, Notes are legal...so why doesn't Justine just bring those if it's the same. Cause it's NOT! Notes can't tell you your opponent has missed 6 backhands. Or that she can't serve out wide so cut off that serve...or to serve up the middle cause your opponent has missed three in a row but again...you Justine and Carlos know this.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:09 PM
You said the difference between Justine getting coaching and Serena bringing notes onto court is purely because one is technically legal and one technically isn't (even though both are against the spirit of the rule).

Btw, I remember at a match at the US Open in either '07 or '08, Serena actually did have her notes confiscated by the umpire. So clearly, by some umpires' interpretations, Serena's actions aren't only against the spirit of the rules but are perhaps also against the letter of the rules.


I think that was in a dream you had...lol! Oh...now is it okay to say you and your shero are both liars...

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Serena wrote some things in her notebook, but the day when she won the AO, she only wrote a name : Tunde.
So no, her notebook is not fulled of Tunde, but also some notes... Justine did also at RG 2007 anyway.

But it would have been shameful if actually Carlos' coaching HELPED Justine. Justine fails on her forehand, she should rely on her backhand more often, it's obvious, Carlos is shouting " FOREHAND !" because he is mad at her.
And Justine always serves on the T, she has a horrendous serve, so Carlos' serve coaching = :haha:

Then Justine knows she should go to volley, but if she forgets to do, and Carlos reminds her to do, well it's called coaching. The fact is that he doesn't do it often. And it's like reading her notebooks at each changeover : "oops I forgot to go to the net". Justine keeps playing the same, it's not like she adapts her game to the opponent (she used to do in the past :tears: )

manu32
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Linday is right and that's probably one big problem for henin,always looking at her guru after every point and even rodriguez complains about that....it's a brain or confidence issue.....

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:14 PM
Linday is right and that's probably one big problem for henin,always looking at her guru after every point and even rodriguez complains about that....it's a brain or confidence issue.....

Lindsay is right about Justine having an issue with Rodriguez, but wrong about the coaching thing. :lol:
I would like to see Justine playing without Carlos, she can, because she must learn to man up.

dsanders06
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:16 PM
[/B]


I think that was in a dream you had...lol!

"He told me I couldn't use my notes. I was like, well, it's not like I'm Harry Potter, and my dad can magically gives me notes to read. It's something that I write myself."
Serena Williams takes umbrage at the umpire for banning her from looking at her notes on the basis that it would contravene coaching rules

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/6972911.stm


I didn't realise BBC News wrote articles about my dreams :shrug:

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:16 PM
I would like to see Justine playing without Carlos, she can, because she must learn to man up.
Unfortunate use of word there.

Seriously though, it would be difficult, given what Carlos himself said.

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:24 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/6972911.stm


I didn't realise BBC News wrote articles about my dreams :shrug:


Watch how you do this. I stand corrected. I was not aware of this incident. Too bad Serena didn't call out the Referee to correct the umpire since it is in no way against the letter or spirit of the coaching rule. Just goes to show that Umpires are people too. As proof of this she and others still bring out their notes:kiss:

Note how I didn't do what you did in this thread and Justine did in the hand incident...lie;)

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:27 PM
Unfortunate use of word there.

Seriously though, it would be difficult, given what Carlos himself said.

Lol I know :happy: Don't worry, I knew some would say it. But it's true, Justine is like a little girl with Carlos, it's ridiculous for a 7-slam-winner. Can you believe it?
Maybe with a bit more of confidence, she would have already won Wimbledon, a bit more Slams, or even today ?? who knows ???
You know, Carlos said it yeah, but it would be better for Justine !!!! I mean, of course, it would be difficult for her at the beginning, but at least, she will learn to be alone.

When she was angry at her family, her only supports were Pierre and Carlos :tape: and in 2002, Justine was losing to Clijsters left and right, so Carlos told her to be meaner, that Kim was a bitch, that even her own dad (Justine's) enjoyed so much to see her daughter losing to Kim. :happy:
So Justine worked her way up, she was kinda alone only with Carlos.
Now, she is back with her family, she is friends with Kim again, she lacks of that killer instinct. Carlos is pretty useless, Justine needs to learn to live without him, ok he supported her, but not anymore, she is now an adult :help: she should figure out things on the court instead of listening to Carlos to motivate her. It's sad.

barboza
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:28 PM
Lol I know :happy: Don't worry, I knew some would say it. But it's true, Justine is like a little girl with Carlos, it's ridiculous for a 7-slam-winner. Can you believe it?
Maybe with a bit more of confidence, she would have already won Wimbledon, a bit more Slams, or even today ?? who knows ???
You know, Carlos said it yeah, but it would be better for Justine !!!! I mean, of course, it would be difficult for her at the beginning, but at least, she will learn to be alone.

When she was angry at her family, her only supports were Pierre and Carlos :tape: and in 2002, Justine was losing to Clijsters left and right, so Carlos told her to be meaner, that Kim was a bitch, that even her own dad (Justine's) enjoyed so much to see her daughter losing to Kim. :happy:
So Justine worked her way up, she was kinda alone only with Carlos.
Now, she is back with her family, she is friends with Kim again, she lacks of that killer instinct. Carlos is pretty useless, Justine needs to learn to live without him, ok he supported her, but not anymore, she is now an adult :help: she should figure out things on the court instead of listening to Carlos to motivate her. It's sad.

What is your point?? The bottomline is that she receives coaching, which probably has helped her win all the titles she has accumulated.

starin
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:37 PM
justine would never cheat like that. her whole career has been exemplified by her honesty and integrity.

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:41 PM
justine would never cheat like that. her whole career has been exemplified by her honesty and integrity.
OK
So the Hand Incident and accusation of illiegal aocahcing are just smear tactics to taint Justine's character

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:42 PM
What is your point?? The bottomline is that she receives coaching, which probably has helped her win all the titles she has accumulated.

I am discussing with Tennisbum, he said it would be difficult for Justine to split on the court with her coach. I believe she can, and that it would be much better.
And you are a moron, Carlos didn't play on the court, Nadal is coached as well, but nobody said he won his 7 slams thanks to his uncle :weirdo: Some players get coaching on court (off slams) and still they can't win the title.
So, even if coaching is not allowed, it's false to claim Justine would have never won some titles without Carlos.

Gosh. The stupidity of some posters is astouding. I hope for your own sake you are trolling :unsure:

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:42 PM
OK
So the Hand Incident and accusation of illiegal aocahcing are just smear tactics to taint Justine's character

he was being ironical, he is a venus fan

starin
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:47 PM
OK
So the Hand Incident and accusation of illiegal aocahcing are just smear tactics to taint Justine's character

that wasn't cheating. i forget why but for some reason that wasn't cheating. In fact I think the hand incident was Serena cheating. I forget why again. But it must be so.

tennisbum79
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:49 PM
that wasn't cheating. i forget why but for some reason that wasn't cheating. In fact I think the hand incident was Serena cheating. I forget why again. But it must be so.
:lol::lol:

Sp!ffy
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:56 PM
justine would never cheat like that. her whole career has been exemplified by her honesty and integrity.

I hope you were being sarcastic :hysteric:

Bijoux0021
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:00 PM
I hope you were being sarcastic :hysteric:
Yes, s/he was.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:03 PM
So you agre Serena bringing notes onto court is breaking the spirit of the (imo stupid) coaching rules?

Errrmmm...NOPE!!

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by dsanders06 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/lastpost.gif (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?p=18068329#post18068329)
But according to "Serena y Monica", if something isn't against the rules then it's completely fine.


Well I can see why you like Justine. Cause I've never said anything close to this.

:spit: Thank god it was water cuz I just spit it all over!! LMAO @ "Well I can see why you like Justine..."

Elwin.
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:04 PM
Well said Lindsay :worship:
Justine is nothing without Carlos. So useless.

mdterp01
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Well said Lindsay :worship:
Justine is nothing without Carlos. So useless.

OMG Elwin...your pictures are :rolls:

Andrewraven
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Henin oozes talent, she would do just fine without carlos, i have no idea why she insists on his support during a match when she is more than capable of dealing with the situation at hand alone.

hurricanejeanne
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:07 PM
And all the coaching couldn't help Justine create enough evil to prevail over Saint Kim. :sobbing:



:p

Marionated
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Well said Lindsay :worship:
Justine is nothing without Carlos. So useless.

Since she has never been without Carlos, I fail to see how you can reach this conclusion :rolleyes:

NeoZod19
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:09 PM
well said Lindsay! and I think it's time that people officialy knows this wrong act between Justine and her coach.

cecilija
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:12 PM
Since she has never been without Carlos, I fail to see how you can reach this conclusion :rolleyes:

She has. She is actually unbeaten without him :o

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:22 PM
Henin oozes talent, she would do just fine without carlos, i have no idea why she insists on his support during a match when she is more than capable of dealing with the situation at hand alone.

Because she is insecure. It's really sad to watch. She has convinced herself she needed Carlos so much.

She has. She is actually unbeaten without him :o

Which matchs ? Shame, you are a better Henin fan than me. :lol:

bandabou
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:23 PM
And never gets a warning...it's even worse than Nadal, man!

terjw
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:34 PM
Justine stubbornly sticks to a losing game plan, more than any other player this side of Venus Williams. This is not the behaviour of someone who is being coached.

This. It's all very well saying she's coached - but she doesn't take any notice if she is.

The Witch-king
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:38 PM
Please, Justine can play without Carlos. Carlos doesn't coach her, he tries to tell her to calm down, that's ALL. He said it himself. Gosh.

Girl. Just no.

http://www.ecorazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/whitney-2.jpg

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:40 PM
This. It's all very well saying she's coached - but she doesn't take any notice if she is.

Yeah that's it. She not looking up at him after every point to receive the well constructed (only to be rivaled by those in baseball) coaching signals. He's designed them for his own convienance...lol!


s

LANGAM
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:42 PM
And in other breaking news....water is wet.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:45 PM
Henin doesn't even listen to Carlos, she needs him to be here, that's why she is looking at him. When I am playing tennis, I always am looking at someone from my family, always. Not that I am coached but to feel I am not alone. :tape:
And Henin doesn't have confidence at all. She is the opposite of Serena Williams.

DemWilliamsGulls
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:51 PM
Please, Justine can play without Carlos. Carlos doesn't coach her, he tries to tell her to calm down, that's ALL. He said it himself. Gosh.

Oh is that what he does? well...okay..well...that doesnt work either...she lost...so...moving on ;)

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:06 PM
Oh is that what he does? well...okay..well...that doesnt work either...she lost...so...moving on ;)

:weirdo: I don't see where is your point?
I don't even search some excuses for her loss, so why should I move on ? Justine lacks of self confidence.

terjw
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:13 PM
Yeah that's it. She not looking up at him after every point to receive the well constructed (only to be rivaled by those in baseball) coaching signals. He's designed them for his own convienance...lol!


s

Prove it. Let's see something on You-Tube exactly showing something Carlos has told her to. And then let's see her actually changing strategy and doing it instead of just this mindless "she looks up to Carlos". There's nothing wrong with looking up to Carlos for encouragement and reassurance so shots of her looking up to Carlos prove nothing.

Bottom line if they are indulging in illegal coaching - they really are hopeless bumbling amateurs on a Mr Bean scale since the only difference is she plays worse like today.

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Justine even asked to Carlos to shut up, during RG. I believe it was against Zakopalova or Sharapova.
And at S'hertogenbosch, Justine was laughing after losing the second set, and Carlos told her to stop laughing to save her from embarrassement or something like that :happy:

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:30 PM
Prove it. Let's see something on You-Tube exactly showing something Carlos has told her to. And then let's see her actually changing strategy and doing it instead of just this mindless "she looks up to Carlos". There's nothing wrong with looking up to Carlos for encouragement and reassurance so shots of her looking up to Carlos prove nothing.

Bottom line if they are indulging in illegal coaching - they really are hopeless bumbling amateurs on a Mr Bean scale since the only difference is she plays worse like today.

Been there done that. He was caught clearly on camera several times at AO...well hashed over then...Only mental midgets even dispute it at this point. You know it's bad when commentators obsess about it and they all have from BBC US and AUS

terjw
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:34 PM
Been there done that. He was caught clearly on camera several times at AO...well hashed over then...Only mental midgets even dispute it at this point. You know it's bad when commentators obsess about it and they all have from BBC US and AUS

So what exactly did Carlos tell Justine to do AND Justine did. Please show it rather than just keep saying it happened.

debby
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:55 PM
So what exactly did Carlos tell Justine to do AND Justine did. Please show it rather than just keep saying it happened.

He only reminded her to serve on the T, but Justine already did, and it is an epic fail. She should serve on the ad side.
Or he blamed her not to go to the volley like he adviced her before the match.

It could be calling coaching but I don't think it has a real influence on Justine because she knows she should go to the net, and she keeps serving on the T and she fails.
So it makes me laugh when I hear Lindsay saying Kim at least can figure out herself things on court, because Justine does too, but in a wrong way :rolls:

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:55 PM
You comb through the thread. He was caught on camera coaching her on the toss. That aside do you think Mary Carillo, both the Mac bros. Mary Jo, Pam, Darrin, Lindsay, Corrina, the BBC staff et. al are just making it up? Really...why?

Serena y Monica
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:57 PM
He only reminded her to serve on the T, but Justine already did, and it is an epic fail. She should serve on the ad side.
Or he blamed her not to go to the volley like he adviced her before the match.

It could be calling coaching but I don't think it has a real influence on Justine because she knows she should go to the net, and she keeps serving on the T and she fails.
So it makes me laugh when I hear Lindsay saying Kim at least can figure out herself things on court, because Justine does too, but in a wrong way :rolls:

Trolby you are too redicules...is that all he did? Well now then...it must be ok.

debby
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:00 AM
You comb through the thread. He was caught on camera coaching her on the toss. That aside do you think Mary Carillo, both the Mac bros. Mary Jo, Pam, Darrin, Lindsay, Corrina, the BBC staff et. al are just making it up? Really...why?

LMFAO !
Justine has a terrible toss since her come back, and you are telling me you can coach a player at distance to toss a ball? :rolls: :happy: And you call me ridiculous. Golden.

Serena y Monica
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:03 AM
Yes Trolby you can...you can remind them that they are tossing it in the wrong spot...which he did. She was getting it out too far.
I'm out. This has gone from the sublime to the redicules...

debby
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:06 AM
Yes Trolby you can...you can remind them that they are tossing it in the wrong spot...which he did. She was getting it out too far.
I'm out. This has gone from the sublime to the redicules...

Still, I don't see how. She still has toss problems, and she has been training with Carlos for 15 years, so don't make it a big deal.

JJ ismyname
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:14 AM
If his coaching is so good why ain't she winning then? It doesn't seem to be helping her so maybe the haters should be encouraging her to do it more.

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:44 AM
If his coaching is so good why ain't she winning then? It doesn't seem to be helping her so maybe the haters should be encouraging her to do it more.
You missed the point. And you are not the only making this agrument.

The bottom line is, right now, in the WTA, coaching from the stand is illegal.
Whether the player who benefits from it wins or not.

Before deciding whether some one commited a crime of theft, do you investigate first to determine whether the item or money they stole was put to good use and not wasted on booze?

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:59 AM
If his coaching is so good why ain't she winning then? It doesn't seem to be helping her so maybe the haters should be encouraging her to do it more.

Exactly. Has Justine ever listened and acted on this "coaching". All her matches nowadays seem to start well and get worse. Still no answer that this must be the most clumbsy amateurish and innefective coaching ever. LOL that these signals that everyone else can understand can't be understood by Justine herself.:lol:

_Cell-chuk
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:01 AM
Justine has kicked Lindsay's ass so many times that Lindsay can moan as much as she wants.

Mightymirza
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:04 AM
:lol: is she saying thats why she lost all those matches against her?

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:08 AM
You missed the point. And you are not the only making this agrument.

The bottom line is, right now, in the WTA, coaching from the stand is illegal.
Whether the player who benefits from it wins or not.

Before deciding whether some one commited a crime of theft, do you investigate first to determine whether the item or money they stole was put to good use and not wasted on booze?

True - but first of all it raises the question if Justine can't understand it and doesn't do what he allegesdly tells her to do - how much is he really giving coaching and how much it is just people claiming he was coaching.

Secondly - and you are missing the point - if he is giving coaching and Justine isn't listening or acting on it - then he may be doing something illegal (although the umpire is not convinced) - but Justine is not cheating as is claimed because she's not acting on it or understanding it.

And they must be bumbling idiots in the Mr Bean league to do it so ineffectively without any benefit and cock it up so bad.

debby
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:14 AM
Exactly. Has Justine ever listened and acted on this "coaching". All her matches nowadays seem to start well and get worse. Still no answer that this must be the most clumbsy amateurish and innefective coaching ever. LOL that these signals that everyone else can understand can't be understood by Justine herself.:lol:

To be fair, Carlos knows nothing about serve. :lol: And he thinks Justine should play more aggressively :rolleyes: and thinks her fh is good.

Justine has kicked Lindsay's ass so many times that Lindsay can moan as much as she wants.

:rolls: Finally a new Herpes troll :hearts: I love you already.

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:16 AM
True - but first of all it raises the question if Justine can't understand it and doesn't do what he allegesdly tells her to do - how much is he really giving coaching and how much it is just people claiming he was coaching.

Secondly - and you are missing the point - if he is giving coaching and Justine isn't listening or acting on it - then he may be doing something illegal (although the umpire is not convinced) - but Justine is not cheating as is claimed because she's not acting on it or understanding it.
I don't think the rule get into the finer point your are making.

How would the umpire know that the alleged beneficiary is acting on the advise hse is receiving?

I heard that Nadal was fined for illegal coaching.
Nadal did protest on court that "Uncle Tony" was not talking to him, but to another person his box.

debby
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:18 AM
True - but first of all it raises the question if Justine can't understand it and doesn't do what he allegesdly tells her to do - how much is he really giving coaching and how much it is just people claiming he was coaching.

Secondly - and you are missing the point - if he is giving coaching and Justine isn't listening or acting on it - then he may be doing something illegal (although the umpire is not convinced) - but Justine is not cheating as is claimed because she's not acting on it or understanding it.

Carlos is very bad tempered. He always moans about everything, he is angry at all the time at Justine during matchs, he is nervous, he is like "omg not like that FOREHAND!!!11 for god's sake !!!111 and she is serving like a scrub /facepalm " like we do in front of our TV :lol: Don't forget he always opens his mouth "Clijsters is a bitch" or something :rolls:
Even Justine hated it at some point but kept working with him because she didn't want to give up on him only because of bad feeling. Now 15 years together :lol:

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 01:53 AM
I don't think the rule get into the finer point your are making.

How would the umpire know that the alleged beneficiary is acting on the advise hse is receiving?

I heard that Nadal was fined for illegal coaching.
Nadal did protest on court that "Uncle Tony" was not talking to him, but to another person his box.

You still don't understand and miss the point. Of course the rule says nothing about whether the player is benefiting. But:

The umpires are not seeing it as any coaching going on anyway so there's nothing for how they would decide anyway on whether Justine was benefitting. If they did think Carlos was coaching - of course it is irrelevant if Justine receives the advice and they should follow the rule and warn her. No-one is arguing with that.
.
The accusations and claims by other people and observers that there was coaching which hasn't been called by the Umpire requires greater scrutiny as to whether it's the truth when Carlos and Justine look like bumbling fools if she is being coached. No doubt there are occasions when he has given coaching but I suspect most of the time it is just encouragement or frustration. Accusations require proof.
.
And most important - Carlos may be breaking the rules. But it is another thing entirely and nothiong to do with the rules to claim as is done on these boards that Justine is a cheater. If she is not listening to or understanding or acting on his coaching, the rules have been broken but as she is not listening and taking advantage - calling her a cheater is libellous.

Leo_DFP
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:16 AM
Umpires are weak ass bitches. I'd be all over her.

In fact I think we need to get the ump who did Nadal's 3R match to be watching Justine and Carlos at this year's USO.

griffin
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:23 AM
.
And most important - Carlos may be breaking the rules. But it is another thing entirely and nothiong to do with the rules to claim as is done on these boards that Justine is a cheater. If she is not listening to or understanding or acting on his coaching, the rules have been broken but as she is not listening and taking advantage - calling her a cheater is libellous.[/LIST]


Correct me if I"m wrong, but Carlos works for Justine and not the other way around, yes? If she wanted him to stop breaking the rules - it's not like this is the first time it's come up - it's a pretty simple matter.

The fact that she still lost isn't relevant. If someone takes steroids and gets busted, they still face a penalty even if they don't win the contest. All that means is that today, she was beyond help.

mykarma
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:38 AM
So what exactly did Carlos tell Justine to do AND Justine did. Please show it rather than just keep saying it happened.
So if it can't be found on utube it didn't happen. :lol:

Carillo and McEnroe was talking about it yesterday and to my surprise Mary called Carlos out and said that it was cheating. She also said that the umpires need to stop them from doing it because it was against the rules. For Mary to say it who acts like she has an orgasm every time Justine plays should be enough proof for even you.

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:50 AM
Correct me if I"m wrong, but Carlos works for Justine and not the other way around, yes? If she wanted him to stop breaking the rules - it's not like this is the first time it's come up - it's a pretty simple matter.

The fact that she still lost isn't relevant. If someone takes steroids and gets busted, they still face a penalty even if they don't win the contest. All that means is that today, she was beyond help.
I amde this vsery point to terjw, s/he keeps changing the focus,
terjw central argument seems to be, there must be evidence that Justine got some tangible benefits from the alleged coaching before it can be called illegal coaching.

How do you even go about this when the decision need to be made on the spot?

It is not even in the s[irit of the rule.

n1_and_uh_noone
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:59 AM
So if it can't be found on utube it didn't happen. :lol:

Carillo and McEnroe was talking about it yesterday and to my surprise Mary called Carlos out and said that it was cheating. She also said that the umpires need to stop them from doing it because it was against the rules. For Mary to say it who acts like she has an orgasm every time Justine plays should be enough proof for even you.

Mary, as in... Mary Carillo? You've gotta be kidding. The only time she has anything positive to say about Justine is when McEnroe is at hand. Else, it is always about digging up her past, the FO 2003, A0 2006, her Allezs, looking at Carlos, having the nerve to win so much at her size, jealous volleys etc :D.

BuTtErFrEnA
Jun 29th, 2010, 03:03 AM
amazing how terjw defends this blatant cheating with the logic that "if you don't benefit it's not illegal coaching"

:rolls:

the rule doesn't care if the player benefits obviously since rafa gets warned for it...players like lindsay and commentators alike who usually drool over jh are all calling her on it...

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 03:08 AM
Correct me if I"m wrong, but Carlos works for Justine and not the other way around, yes? If she wanted him to stop breaking the rules - it's not like this is the first time it's come up - it's a pretty simple matter.

The fact that she still lost isn't relevant. If someone takes steroids and gets busted, they still face a penalty even if they don't win the contest. All that means is that today, she was beyond help.

She employs Carlos but if he breaks the rules she may have to take the rap but if she's not invoved in it - it's ridiculous to say she's cheating.

There's a whole world of difference between cheating and breaking a rule. Plus if there's no point in doing it and no understanding by Justine what he's saying - then if it's pre-planned they are bumbling fools and what's the point - the motive aspect has not been answered by anyone.

I suspect most of the time - it's not coaching but if there is any - it's overexcuberance and frustration any proven occasion - which is very different from it being a pre-planned act that Justine conspires with Carlos to do. All I'm getting as evidence is X caught him and Y says he did it and she looks up to Carlos. It's not proof. If he coaches her illegally - the umpire can give her a warning. Just as if a player takes too long - the umpire can give a Time Violation warning. But there is no proof whatsoever that they conspire to cheat - and to make a cheating allegation is unfounded.

And taking what Carlos does in isolation - it's interpretation and whether he crosses the line from support to coaching which he no doubt does occasionally.

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 03:16 AM
amazing how terjw defends this blatant cheating with the logic that "if you don't benefit it's not illegal coaching"

:rolls:

the rule doesn't care if the player benefits obviously since rafa gets warned for it...players like lindsay and commentators alike who usually drool over jh are all calling her on it...

You don't get it. I know the rule. I'm not defending cheating. But I don't believe in lynch mobs and unproven allegations like you do. But you are making an unproved accusation. If you can prove that Carlos was giving coaching - he broke the rules. Doesn't prove cheating though unless it was conspired and Justine is listening for it or acts on it. Why is that so hard to understand?

brent-o
Jun 29th, 2010, 03:20 AM
I think the most annoying thing about on-court coaching is how the commentators blabber on and on about it. Personally, I don't care whether or not it happens as a fan, but some of these commentators seem like they're sitting there the entire match ready to blow the whistle or go tell on the first move a coach makes. It seems like an incredibly trivial issue to focus on to me.

Rolling-Thunder
Jun 29th, 2010, 04:20 AM
The point of the post underscores that if Nadal can be fined $2000 for coaching, then Justine should long ago have been fined many times. We all see it. The umpires have to see it also. Its so obvious.

Serena's Hubby
Jun 29th, 2010, 04:39 AM
right and because its Justine..they won't challenge her...smh...tennnis

mykarma
Jun 29th, 2010, 05:02 AM
Mary, as in... Mary Carillo? You've gotta be kidding. The only time she has anything positive to say about Justine is when McEnroe is at hand. Else, it is always about digging up her past, the FO 2003, A0 2006, her Allezs, looking at Carlos, having the nerve to win so much at her size, jealous volleys etc :D.
Yeah, I was totally shocked the Carillo put Justine's family situation out there but when it comes to gossiping, no one is off limits.

DefyingGravity
Jun 29th, 2010, 05:20 AM
Look...even if she is receiving coaching, it appears to be falling on deaf ears. Sharapova has said before that she never listened to her dad, no matter what he was screaming. Justine could really be doing that, although there was an open dialogue at Wimbledon 2007 in the QF against Serena...when she started choking and losing a gameplan, and Justine was yelling at Carlos and Carlos was talking back. If that wasn't an opportunity for coaching to be called, it's never going to be called.

Veronique
Jun 29th, 2010, 06:38 AM
I love listening to Lindsay. She's a natural. She definitely has a future in sports broadcasting. Perhaps now that she's brought attention to the illegal coaching issue, the WTA will respond?

Slutiana
Jun 29th, 2010, 06:44 AM
Look...even if she is receiving coaching, it appears to be falling on deaf ears. Sharapova has said before that she never listened to her dad, no matter what he was screaming. Justine could really be doing that, although there was an open dialogue at Wimbledon 2007 in the QF against Serena...when she started choking and losing a gameplan, and Justine was yelling at Carlos and Carlos was talking back. If that wasn't an opportunity for coaching to be called, it's never going to be called.
Sharapova didn't/doesn't look at her father/bench after every point. :shrug:

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:34 AM
You don't get it. I know the rule. I'm not defending cheating. But I don't believe in lynch mobs and unproven allegations like you do. But you are making an unproved accusation. If you can prove that Carlos was giving coaching - he broke the rules. Doesn't prove cheating though unless it was conspired and Justine is listening for it or acts on it. Why is that so hard to understand?

That's the thing...you're saying that Carlos ISN'T coaching. It's OBVIOUS that he's coaching. Everybody sees, knows that.

sipnsurfMurph
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:48 AM
terjw is the last person alive that's clueless.

It's a remarkable commitment to ignorance.

Tennisation
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:51 AM
WTF does winning a match have anything to do with whether they cheated or not. If coaching is illegal then it is illegal no matter the outcome of the match or that the player didn't deliver what they were coached. Justine losing the match does not exempt her from the fact that Carlos was coaching.

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:53 AM
terjw is the last person alive that's clueless.

It's a remarkable commitment to ignorance.
terjw actually thinks s/he is the only one who undertands the issue.
And we are all fool for not taking advantage of the clear ,logical explanation of the case he is making

sipnsurfMurph
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:55 AM
WTF does winning a match have anything to do with whether they cheated or not.

While I'm on the subject of clueless ^^^

Midnight_Robber
Jun 29th, 2010, 07:57 AM
It's so annoying to talk about it all the time, we get it :tape: If you knew Justine, you would not say that.. I mean, yes Carlos tries to coach her, but Justine doesn't listen to him, she is stubborn, she has a gameplan BEFORE the match, then plays alone on the court. I am sure Carlos could facepalm during some matchs (Sharapova, Stosur at RG : she changed her tactics DURING the match :confused: ) , that's why he shouts at her, but she doesn't listen to him :lol:
She even asks him to shut up, she only wants some support, not coaching. It's obvious. Henin is an insecure girl, nothing more.

:awww: Still a girl, not yet a woman... :yawn: Same old script around the fragile little girl with a dream. Guess we should hand out a free pass on the coaching rule for every player on the WTA that has confidence issues, with Ivanovic being first in line. :rolleyes:

Linds said that? I'm still not convinced she gets specific coaching but it's more an encouragement thing. She isn't called for it by the umpires. And if there are signals and she does get specific coaching - it's the least effective and worst coaching or signalling system ever which is why I'm not convinced.

At Wimbledon today she started off well against Kim and it went downhill. Kim works it out on her own and improves while Justine supposedly getting coached as to what she's doing wrong gets worse. Hmm. What sort of coaching is that? At RG against Masha - same thing how she went downhill whilst they were playing on court when she is the one supposedly getting illegal coaching.

I vividly remember a match about 3 years ago against Jelena when Jelena got injured in the 3rd set but carried on playing. She had real problems moving and she certainly couldn't turn. Everyone could see it - but Justine and Carlos had this plan not to give Jelena any angles and she didn't change and kept on hitting the ball straight to Jelena. :lol::lol: The commentators said Justine hasn't noticed JJ can't move - all she has to do is make her move and she can't turn. Everyone watching could see it except Justine. If Carlos had been coaching - it was obvious what to signal but Justine kept hitting straight to Jelena. She won in the end but it was close instead of a walk in the park. Again if specific detailed coaching really exists - what sort of coaching is that? :tape:

Irrelevant, as usual. What has this got to do with anything? Seriously this is the equivalent of seeing a sprinter who has come 4th in every race actually take steroids right before your very eyes only for the witness to then say - oh well they're 'supposedly' on steroids but I can't believe it since it's obviously not working out for them; or even worse, arguing that their steroid use is really a "non-issue" because it's 'ineffective', they're not getting the benefits of it and they're only coming 4th anyway... :confused: Er...what kind of 'argument' is this anyway? Since when do you judge wrong-doing according to whether or not it benefits the cheater, whether or not it's intelligent, skillful or works? Who cares if the attempts to coach her are ultimately rewarded with Mr-Bean-like outcomes? The intent is there, and inept cheating is *still* cheating. It doesn't magically become something else, just because they suck at it. :rolleyes:

I have no sympathy for lazy, willfully posters who are demanding that other posters do their homework for them and "prove" that Carlos coaches her. ("If I haven't seen it/never noticed it then it can't exist!") Why should anyone have prove anything to you? Open your eyes for yourself and pay attention to what goes on in her matches. So many commentators - many of whom admire her game are calling her out for it because they've *seen* it for themselves. Journalists have seen it - so have many of us here on TF. I like her game* quite* a bit better than Kim's but I'm not going to pretend that she doesn't get coached by him. Unless you believe there is a media conspiracy against poor little Justine, maybe, just maybe this is a real issue.

kiwialicat
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:03 AM
Actually if I understand right, I kind of agree with terjw. Look, the whole reason coaching is illegal and there is a rule against it, is that it offers someone an unfair advantage (cheating). If Justine is being coached, but chooses to ignore it/doesn't understand whatever, then she clearly isn't gaining any unfair advantage. Hence the rule is kind of useless or irrelevant since it is designed to cut out those advantages and its not really cheating on the part of the player. The rule as it stands only supports this sort of stupid circular logic.

Therefore it is a stupid rule, one poorly thought out and even more poorly implemented. However, I do think she should be penalised, not because I actually think she is cheating, but because if a rule is there, it has to be reinforced no matter how crap it is. Like I think Henin should have been penalised in that match in the Aus Open, I think against Petrova. Where she got a specific instruction, and acted upon it. So they really need to redesign it.

Cutting out all communication between the player or coach is non-viable, because some players just receive emotional support/encouragement. You can't ban someone from yelling out come on or something. I don't think that is the case with Henin, who obviously is coached sometimes, but not nearly the 'all the time' that some people seem to think.

sipnsurfMurph
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:04 AM
terjw actually thinks s/he is the only one who undertands the issue.
And we are all fool for not taking advantage of the clear ,logical explanation of the case he is making

Of course.

If you're heavily invested in a delusion the crazy folks insisting that water is wet are quite bothersome.

Mercredi
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:06 AM
Still, I don't see how. She still has toss problems, and she has been training with Carlos for 15 years, so don't make it a big deal.

It is not about making a big deal or not it is about giving advise while it is not allowed. Whatever his advise worked or not he is not allowed to tell her what to do. Get it?

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:10 AM
Actually if I understand right, I kind of agree with terjw. Look, the whole reason coaching is illegal and there is a rule against it, is that it offers someone an unfair advantage (cheating). If Justine is being coached, but chooses to ignore it/doesn't understand whatever, then she clearly isn't gaining any unfair advantage. Hence the rule is kind of useless or irrelevant since it is designed to cut out those advantages and its not really cheating on the part of the player.

Therefore it is a stupid rule, one poorly thought out and even more poorly implemented. However, I do think she should be penalised, not because I actually think she is cheating, but because if a rule is there, it has to be reinforced no matter how crap it is. Like I think Henin should have been penalised in that match in the Aus Open, I think against Petrova. Where she got a specific instruction, and acted upon it. So they really need to redesign it.

Cutting out all communication between the player or coach is non-viable, because some players just receive emotional support/encouragement. You can't ban someone from yelling out come on or something. I don't think that is the case with Henin, who obviously is coached sometimes, but not nearly the 'all the time' that some people seem to think.
That is irrelevent. Moreover it is not true in the case Carlos-Justine
Most of the time, it is Justine who initiate the eye contact.
How can umpire know whether she is going to ignore and use the signal she just got?

Nadal tried to make that case he lost.
He tried to convince the chair umpire that "Uncle Tony" was not talking to him, but someone else in the family box.

Please give it up.
We have laid out countless number analogies to refer to.

kiwialicat
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:16 AM
That is irrelevent. Moreover it is not true in the case Carlos-Justine
Most of the time, it is Justine who initiate the eye contact.
How can umpire know whether she is going to ignore and use the signal she just got?


Please give it up.
We have laid out countless number analogies to refer to.

Didn't I just say it wasn't pertinent to Justine-Carlos? I was commenting on the issue generally.

How do you know that when Justine looks over to Carlos she is asking for coaching tips? Needing to look at up at Carlos every point or whatever does not imply cheating, just a weakness of character. No matter who pathetic it is it doesn't mean she is cheating. Of course sometimes she does, but not all the time. Plus those times are well documented and easily seen and are the times she should have been punished.

That third line is exactly my point. The umpire can't know and therefore whoever it is should be penalised when the coach gives a specific instruction and the player acts on it. Of course its hard to judge when a player gains an advantage and hence my point about how the rules need to be changed, and even if they aren't still need to be reinforced. I'm not saying that Carlos coaching from the stands isn't illegal, it is. But unless Justine acts on it, it isn't really cheating which is what the rule is supposed to eradicate.

I have no idea what analogies your referring to, or even how they are relevant.

If you read my post, you would have realised that I have noting against Justine being penalised when she receives coaching and acts upon it.

Nina.
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:25 AM
I think it's hilarious that some people serioulsly say that illegal coaching is okay when the player isn't doing what the coach says/ continues to play badly. The rule forbids any kind of coaching at slams, coaching from the stands at every event. That means that Carlos's signals are illegal. And that's a rule the umpires can enforce.
If they had to judge if the coaching brings the player an advantage that would be impossible to do...

tennisbum79
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:33 AM
Didn't I just say it wasn't pertinent to Justine-Carlos? I was commenting on the issue generally.

How do you know that when Justine looks over to Carlos she is asking for coaching tips?

That third line is exactly my point. The umpire can't know and therefore whoever it is should be penalised when the coach gives a specific instruction and the player acts on it.

.
Well, we don't know.
But we do know this, if Justine look over to Carlos, and Carlos make some gesture(usually with his hand), we know that there was communication exchange.

But see, you are lawyering this to death.

Coaching is not allowed is clear.
And I am certain the players and coaches(incuding Justine and Carlos) undertands this.
Carlos has been ambivalent about this in recent article where he was quoted.
But he decided to continue the pratice because stopping it will cause more damage to Justine than
continuing it. He think Justine needs it.

kiwialicat
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:34 AM
I think it's hilarious that some people serioulsly say that illegal coaching is okay when the player isn't doing what the coach says/ continues to play badly. The rule forbids any kind of coaching at slams, coaching from the stands at every event. That means that Carlos's signals are illegal. And that's a rule the umpires can enforce.
If they had to judge if the coaching brings the player an advantage that would be impossible to do...

I'm going to say it very plainly for you. In my opinion, illegal coaching is never okay.The umpires obviously don't enforce the rules which should be a clue that there is something wrong with it.

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:46 AM
That's the thing...you're saying that Carlos ISN'T coaching. It's OBVIOUS that he's coaching. Everybody sees, knows that.

No - But I did say I doubt he coaches anything like the extent claimed with no proof except it's obvious or X says he does which would be laughed out of a court of law.

For the last time - you and all the others please try to read my posts instead of ignorantly replying like this. If proven (though the umpuires don't think so) Carlos may well be coaching. I did NOT say he wasn't. But if Justine hasn't colluded with him beforehand to get coaching and doesn't listen, understand or ignores her coaching - SHE is not cheating. Big difference you and others still fail to understand. The coaching allegation can be dealt with by the Umpire and the rules if true. The cheating allegation has nothing to do with the rules but whether Justine is unfairly using illegal coaching. And this has no basis of proof whatsoever. Oh and Justine looking up at her coach is not proof - she does that for encouragement. No-one has answered how ridiculous and ineffective the so called cheating is.

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:49 AM
terjw is the last person alive that's clueless.

It's a remarkable commitment to ignorance.

When you haven't any arguments left - just insult the poster..

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 09:02 AM
:awww: Still a girl, not yet a woman... :yawn: Same old script around the fragile little girl with a dream. Guess we should hand out a free pass on the coaching rule for every player on the WTA that has confidence issues, with Ivanovic being first in line. :rolleyes:



Irrelevant, as usual. What has this got to do with anything? Seriously this is the equivalent of seeing a sprinter who has come 4th in every race actually take steroids right before your very eyes only for the witness to then say - oh well they're 'supposedly' on steroids but I can't believe it since it's obviously not working out for them; or even worse, arguing that their steroid use is really a "non-issue" because it's 'ineffective', they're not getting the benefits of it and they're only coming 4th anyway... :confused: Er...what kind of 'argument' is this anyway? Since when do you judge wrong-doing according to whether or not it benefits the cheater, whether or not it's intelligent, skillful or works? Who cares if the attempts to coach her are ultimately rewarded with Mr-Bean-like outcomes? The intent is there, and inept cheating is *still* cheating. It doesn't magically become something else, just because they suck at it. :rolleyes:

I have no sympathy for lazy, willfully posters who are demanding that other posters do their homework for them and "prove" that Carlos coaches her. ("If I haven't seen it/never noticed it then it can't exist!") Why should anyone have prove anything to you? Open your eyes for yourself and pay attention to what goes on in her matches. So many commentators - many of whom admire her game are calling her out for it because they've *seen* it for themselves. Journalists have seen it - so have many of us here on TF. I like her game* quite* a bit better than Kim's but I'm not going to pretend that she doesn't get coached by him. Unless you believe there is a media conspiracy against poor little Justine, maybe, just maybe this is a real issue.

And I have no sympathy for believing a lynch mob who cannopt provide proof of cheating. It's up to the accusers to provide proof. You haven't actually provided proof apart from Carillo says he coaches (I seriously doubt she said cheat as is claimed) of the less serious charge that Carlos actually gives coaching which I have said if you read that I'm prepared to accept he probably sometimes does - though not nearly to the extent claimed, But there is no proof whatsoever for the more serious charge of cheationg in which Justine would have had to collude with and listen. understand and take the advice.

Anyway I'm done. If you all want to chant cheat - it will make absolutely no difference in to anything that happens in the real world. Justine may get called in the futuire an odd time like Nadal - but that's about it and you can rave without proof and misunderstand my posts all you like.

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2010, 09:27 AM
No - But I did say I doubt he coaches anything like the extent claimed with no proof except it's obvious or X says he does which would be laughed out of a court of law.

For the last time - you and all the others please try to read my posts instead of ignorantly replying like this. If proven (though the umpuires don't think so) Carlos may well be coaching. I did NOT say he wasn't. But if Justine hasn't colluded with him beforehand to get coaching and doesn't listen, understand or ignores her coaching - SHE is not cheating. Big difference you and others still fail to understand. The coaching allegation can be dealt with by the Umpire and the rules if true. The cheating allegation has nothing to do with the rules but whether Justine is unfairly using illegal coaching. And this has no basis of proof whatsoever. Oh and Justine looking up at her coach is not proof - she does that for encouragement. No-one has answered how ridiculous and ineffective the so called cheating is.


I see...look for me it isn't such a big deal. It's just ridiculous to claim that Carlos is only giving encouragement. Wouldn't go so far to call juju a cheat...but Carlos sure is, no?!

terjw
Jun 29th, 2010, 09:42 AM
I see...look for me it isn't such a big deal. It's just ridiculous to claim that Carlos is only giving encouragement. Wouldn't go so far to call juju a cheat...but Carlos sure is, no?!

Thank you for this post, for reading it and understanding what I'm saying. I actually think even with Carlos - he gives encouragement but oversteps the mark sometimes and just gets carried away with the emotion of the match rather than goes into the match with the deliberate intentiion. However, on that one - that's my personal view.

Actually I don't even particularly like Justine - and even less Carlos. :lol:

Beat
Jun 29th, 2010, 11:26 AM
Please, Justine can play without Carlos. Carlos doesn't coach her, he tries to tell her to calm down, that's ALL. He said it himself. Gosh.

so she constantly looks at him because she knows that he'll tell her to calm down? :lol:

AcesHigh
Jun 29th, 2010, 11:37 AM
That Justine constantly looks to him since her comeback is such a sign of desperation to me. . Pre-2008 Justine was a lot more confident and a lot more secure. She looked to Carlos but it seemed to be more out of reassurance and support.

Now, I have no idea what the hell is going on.

kiwialicat
Jun 29th, 2010, 11:40 AM
I see...look for me it isn't such a big deal. It's just ridiculous to claim that Carlos is only giving encouragement. Wouldn't go so far to call juju a cheat...but Carlos sure is, no?!

Sure. :)
Carlos is cheat, intentional or otherwise. Henin needs (IMO) to get rid of him ASAP if she wants to make any sort of personal growth.

kiwialicat
Jun 29th, 2010, 11:43 AM
Well, we don't know.
But we do know this, if Justine look over to Carlos, and Carlos make some gesture(usually with his hand), we know that there was communication exchange.

But see, you are lawyering this to death.

Coaching is not allowed is clear.
And I am certain the players and coaches(incuding Justine and Carlos) undertands this.
Carlos has been ambivalent about this in recent article where he was quoted.
But he decided to continue the pratice because stopping it will cause more damage to Justine than
continuing it. He think Justine needs it.

sorry, that wasn't really my intention. Lol, I am a law student and work in a law firm though, so I guess that shows.

But yeah, I have no problem with what you just said. Off-topic but what does the last part of you sig refer to?

Matt01
Jun 29th, 2010, 11:53 AM
That Justine constantly looks to him since her comeback is such a sign of desperation to me.


She constantly looked to her coach before her comeback as well :shrug:

And of course looking to your coach is not illegal.

And I'm asking the haters: If Justine constantly looks to her coach and the coaching is so obvious, then why the hell doesn't she ever get a warning?

bandabou
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:08 PM
Thank you for this post, for reading it and understanding what I'm saying. I actually think even with Carlos - he gives encouragement but oversteps the mark sometimes and just gets carried away with the emotion of the match rather than goes into the match with the deliberate intentiion. However, on that one - that's my personal view.

Actually I don't even particularly like Justine - and even less Carlos. :lol:

:yeah:

debby
Jun 29th, 2010, 12:50 PM
so she constantly looks at him because she knows that he'll tell her to calm down? :lol:

It's a habit. She needed him at the beginning, she was young, estranged from her family, she was alone with Pierre and Carlos, and still, Pierre was not there at all the time (for instance, he didn't travel to Australia sometimes), so she needed some support. You can't ask her to change her habits she had been having for years :unsure: looking at Carlos is a habit, not a shot to cheating! And Carlos always has been like that, shouting at her, showing to her he was here... but Justine doesn't listen to him (even Carlos complained about this), she only needs support even if she is back with her family.
I think it's easy to understand that.

That Justine constantly looks to him since her comeback is such a sign of desperation to me. . Pre-2008 Justine was a lot more confident and a lot more secure. She looked to Carlos but it seemed to be more out of reassurance and support.

Now, I have no idea what the hell is going on.

Yes. So true.

Sure. :)
Carlos is cheat, intentional or otherwise. Henin needs (IMO) to get rid of him ASAP if she wants to make any sort of personal growth.

:yeah:

Temperenka
Jun 29th, 2010, 02:35 PM
She needs to be given a code violation, like Rafa did in his third round match.

I honestly don't think she would be nearly the same player without him up in her box. :tape:

2moretogo
Jun 29th, 2010, 03:08 PM
Why does this surprise anyone anymore? But he's not the only one. Nadal was basically talking to his box, from his chair during change overs. They don't even try to hide it anymore.

griffin
Jun 29th, 2010, 05:33 PM
She employs Carlos but if he breaks the rules she may have to take the rap but if she's not invoved in it - it's ridiculous to say she's cheating.


BS. If my employer wanted me to stop breaking xyz rule, or had a problem with how my public behavior reflected on the organization, they'd damn well have the means to make me comply.

The fact that this has been going on for years and she's been unable - or more likely, unwilling to do anything about it suggests she's not an innocent little waif here.

As for "breaking a rule" vs. "cheating"? Please, find a dictionary.

moby
Jun 29th, 2010, 08:57 PM
BS. If my employer wanted me to stop breaking xyz rule, or had a problem with how my public behavior reflected on the organization, they'd damn well have the means to make me comply.Yes, but if you're the company's best employee, and if you're your employer's long-time surrogate dad, then that complicates matters a little for your employer.

fantic
Jun 30th, 2010, 04:09 AM
wait..what was Strycova reading during breaks? Was it like coaching notes a la Serena? I thought it was a guide to make your opponent mad or something :lol: (jk)

basset
Jun 30th, 2010, 05:54 AM
lindsay is right. this has to end..

vandy
Jun 30th, 2010, 07:58 AM
i have a question. The broadcaster said Carlos mouthed the word forehand. Does Carlos speak to Justine in English. I would guess french. If so is the french word for forehand, forehand? Just asking.

LudwigDvorak
Jun 30th, 2010, 08:10 AM
It was at AO 2008, against Razzano or someone. Snezana was mouthing 'Ajde/Idemo JJ' etc etc, and Alvez slapped her with a violation. JJ was pretty ticked and said 'Do you speak Serbian' or something like that...

I guess all the coaching violations seemed to be centered around AO. I couldn't remember where it was, thanks.

homogenius
Jun 30th, 2010, 08:12 AM
i have a question. The broadcaster said Carlos mouthed the word forehand. Does Carlos speak to Justine in English. I would guess french. If so is the french word for forehand, forehand? Just asking.

forehand = "coup droit" in french

bandabou
Jun 30th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Why does this surprise anyone anymore? But he's not the only one. Nadal was basically talking to his box, from his chair during change overs. They don't even try to hide it anymore.

:haha: Yeah....Rafa and Uncle Toni, noww..that's on a whole different level altogether.

mykarma
Jul 1st, 2010, 04:50 AM
She constantly looked to her coach before her comeback as well :shrug:

And of course looking to your coach is not illegal.

And I'm asking the haters: If Justine constantly looks to her coach and the coaching is so obvious, then why the hell doesn't she ever get a warning?
That's what we want to know. :shrug: