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Kworb
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:46 PM
Anyone have the stats know-how to figure this out? I would guess Wozniacki but maybe someone has even fewer average winners.

Slutati
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:47 PM
No statistics about Caroline allowed. :sad:

Caralenko
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:48 PM
AnnaK_4ever was the most extreme pusher :sad:

Kworb
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:49 PM
No statistics about Caroline allowed. :sad:

This is not just about her, it's a general SEWTA topic.

Mynarco
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:50 PM
Caro is as sacred as Virgin Mary here in TF. This thread is soooo gonna be locked

LudwigDvorak
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:51 PM
Kworb. :sad: Another Dementieva fan about to be banned by the mods...

Why can't Wozniacki fans ever get banned? I guess they don't push the limits enough.

AcesHigh
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:53 PM
AnnaK_4ever was the most extreme pusher :sad:

:haha:

Dominic
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:55 PM
What is wrong witthis thread, why should it be locked?

Kworb
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:55 PM
Yeah did I miss something? I haven't been on the forum much today.

delicatecutter
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:57 PM
Wozniacki--most successful, highest ranking, most MM titles, 0 Tier I titles, woeful Top 10 record

debby
Jun 26th, 2010, 11:58 PM
It is not a wrong thread.

Thanks Kworb for praising the pushers ! Caro must be proud to be the most extreme pusher. Hell, she is more boring than AMG, Radwanska and Dulghery put all together :D :D :D

roelc
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:00 AM
i like the title :haha:

LudwigDvorak
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:01 AM
This poll should have had Meusburger, Rus. At least.

tennisbum79
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:06 AM
This defnition from wiki could help before voting


In tennis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis), a pusher is a player who "pushes" back any shot they can chase down, without deliberately hitting a winner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_terminology#W). This style of play, likened to a "human backboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backboard_(tennis))", often tires and frustrates more offensive opponents. Pushers tend to have great success at the lower NTRP rating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_terminology#N) levels. However, they are usually beaten by players with a more aggressive strategy or possess serve-and-volley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve-and-volley) skills which rob pushers of the time they require to chase down a shot.
The pusher's strategy can sometimes be effective even at the upper levels of the pro game. Brad Gilbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Gilbert) is often referred to as the greatest pusher of all time, reaching the top 10 in 1990.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)#cite_note-0)

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Counter-strategies

Playing pushers, especially in the lower levels of competition, can be difficult for players unaccustomed to their style. However, there are several counter-strategies players use to defeat a pushers.

First, players try to never let the pusher see them frustrated. A pusher's mental game is very important to them[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)#cite_note-1), and an opponent who is obviously tired and angry will make them more confident. Players need to stay calm and focused to outlast and beat pushers.

In a similar vein, pushers will often complain loudly to themselves when losing, occasionally with the intent of rattling their opponent. To counter this, players must either ignore the outbursts, or train themselves to be encouraged by it.

Some pushers will go to lengths attempting to psychologically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology) abuse their opponents. In order to trip up a player, a pusher may deliberately question the score and line calls; players counter this by clearly denoting their line calls and by loudly and obviously stating the score before each point. Not only will this give the pusher fewer opportunities to act confused, but will also help the player's case if a referee's intervention is required.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)#cite_note-2)

A quick serve-and-volley game is the hardest strategy for a pusher to beat; it forces them to cede control of the point early, and lowers the time they will have to react to shots. Hitting a moonball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_terminology#M) to a pusher's backhand side will often force them to hit a lob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lob_(tennis)), allowing a relatively leisurely overhead to end the point. In some cases, players may be able to outlast the pusher by hitting several cross-court strokes and waiting for the pusher to hit a ball that can be volleyed away.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(tennis)

~CANUCK~
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:10 AM
Yeah did I miss something? I haven't been on the forum much today.

Some of your fellow posters seem to think that the mods love caro so much that any thread mentioning that she is a pusher will get you banned. They are just over reacting to an earlier situation.

Sammo
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:11 AM
Serena Williams the most extreme pusher ever!


LOL!!!!!!!!! Wow it feels odd writing it :happy:

Serena y Monica
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:16 AM
Ever...Hingis...today Caro...but I still like her. I even like watching her when she plays other pushers she can be somewhat aggressive.

Sammo
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:18 AM
Yeah... Hingis... :cuckoo:

tennisbum79
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:21 AM
Some of your fellow posters seem to think that the mods love caro so much that any thread mentioning that she is a pusher will get you banned. They are just over reacting to an earlier situation.
I think the posters were protesting what was perceived to be double stantards and arbitrary.

AcesHigh
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:23 AM
Ever...Hingis...today Caro...but I still like her. I even like watching her when she plays other pushers she can be somewhat aggressive.

Hingis? :spit: sure

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:25 AM
Caro's winning. :cheer: :hearts:

tennisbum79
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:28 AM
Caro's winning. :cheer: :hearts:
Read the definition of pusher posted (post #14) in this thread, it may give an insitght how far she will go.

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 12:35 AM
Read the definition of pusher posted (post #14) in this thread, it may give an insitght how far she will go.

It was insightful, but also obvious to anyone with eyes. It definitely lends truth to my belief that Caro's "injury" timeouts are part of her strategy.

doktor
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Aravane Rezai... She's just so patient

Viktymise
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:22 AM
Craybas isn't a pusher. :confused:

darrinbaker00
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:33 AM
If you make your living playing tennis, you are not a pusher. Period.

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:38 AM
Craybas isn't a pusher. :confused:

Wozniacki is the only actual pusher in the poll, but I guess that would have made for a boring outcome. He should have at least included Meusburger for a viable other option.

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:44 AM
If you make your living playing tennis, you are not a pusher. Period.

Have you watched Wozniacki play? :confused:

iGOAT
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:47 AM
Amg.

darrinbaker00
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:49 AM
Have you watched Wozniacki play? :confused:
Yes, I have. Why do you ask?

Mynarco
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:52 AM
Actually Dulgheru on grass can sometimes be a joke. OMG, her match against Kanepi :help:

Wiggly
Jun 27th, 2010, 01:55 AM
Actually Dulgheru on grass can sometimes be a joke. OMG, her match against Kanepi :help:

I watched Dulgheru vs Wickmayer at the AO and all she was doing was running like a beheaded chicken left and right and slicing every shot to get it back.

But some posters are saying she has a nice game.
Myabe she isn't always like that.

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:00 AM
Yes, I have. Why do you ask?

Because she's making her living playing tennis and is still a pusher. Which kind of voids your previous post.

delicatecutter
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:04 AM
I watched Dulgheru vs Wickmayer at the AO and all she was doing was running like a beheaded chicken left and right and slicing every shot to get it back.

But some posters are saying she has a nice game.
Myabe she isn't always like that.

She gave Yanina all she could handle and more. I just remember being terrified because Wickmayer was my Day 1 pick for Suicide. :sobbing: Dulgheru played great in that match and that's how you have to play against Wickmayer, who can be pretty inconsistent from the back of the court. Alex is no pusher though. She has a great backhand which she will rip for winners occasionally. She's more a junkballer than anything. I really don't like to watch her, but I do respect her game. I will never respect Wozniacki unless she makes some drastic changes. :o

wateva
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:06 AM
what darrinbaker was referring to is that "pusher" means a dealer in illegal drugs trade. so if she's a tennis player, she's not a pusher.

darrinbaker00
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:08 AM
Because she's making her living playing tennis and is still a pusher. Which kind of voids your previous post.
Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.

wateva
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:11 AM
Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.
oops. guess i misunderstood your post. :lol:

Caralenko
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:13 AM
Dulgheru played great in that match and that's how you have to play against Wickmayer, who can be pretty inconsistent from the back of the court. Alex is no pusher though. She has a great backhand which she will rip for winners occasionally. She's more a junkballer than anything. I really don't like to watch her, but I do respect her game. I will never respect Wozniacki unless she makes some drastic changes. :o

Double standards :lol: Caroline has a good backhand.


S0iqZGF_D48

Not that her game is in any way pleasant :o Just that Dulgheru is no different.

CloudAtlas
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:18 AM
She gave Yanina all she could handle and more. I just remember being terrified because Wickmayer was my Day 1 pick for Suicide. :sobbing: Dulgheru played great in that match and that's how you have to play against Wickmayer, who can be pretty inconsistent from the back of the court. Alex is no pusher though. She has a great backhand which she will rip for winners occasionally. She's more a junkballer than anything. I really don't like to watch her, but I do respect her game. I will never respect Wozniacki unless she makes some drastic changes. :o


Well doesn't Wozniacki have that as well with it occasionally ripping winners? This isn't about their games. Let's face it , if Dulgheru had had Wozniacki's career , she'd be the one getting hate from you then ;]

Mightymirza
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:22 AM
Aga always likes to mix it up :shrug: So many dropshots, net play..

Pops Maellard
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:27 AM
Double standards :lol: Caroline has a good backhand.


S0iqZGF_D48

Not that her game is in any way pleasant :o Just that Dulgheru is no different.
lol, she's almost 20. How much longer is the 'she's still a work-in-progress (given in the video description)' excuse going to wash? :o

Reptilia
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:33 AM
Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.

Agree with this.

I don't understand all this Wozniacki hate on TF, It's just a different style of play. It's sometimes a nice change to see actual rallies rather than the normal headcases on tour like safarova who struggle to get a ball in all match.

That being said I don't think she belongs in the top 5 atm

twight6
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:42 AM
Double standards :lol: Caroline has a good backhand.


S0iqZGF_D48

Not that her game is in any way pleasant :o Just that Dulgheru is no different.

Wow :clap2: Congrats to the video maker for finding and putting together the only 10 winners Wozniacki has hit in her entire career :bowdown:

:help:

twight6
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:50 AM
If someone was posting this about Maria or Serena, I wonder if they'd get banned.

What does it mean, that this idiot is going to spew hate in every thread that involves her?

Maybe Serena and Maria fans are overly sensitive so they use the report button a lot, whereas Wozniacki fans have tough skins so they just ignore the negative comments :shrug: :lol:

Pops Maellard
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:56 AM
Maybe Serena and Maria fans are overly sensitive so they use the report button a lot, whereas Wozniacki fans have tough skins so they just ignore the negative comments :shrug: :lol:
lol no, they join in pretty much most of the arguments. :lol:

SymphonyX
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:06 AM
Doesn't really matter if Caroline's the biggest pusher around. If tried pushing around the likes of Serena and Maria, she'll be blasted off court.

duhcity
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:12 AM
http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/2004_Mean_Girls/Thumb/004MGI_Tina_Fey_003.jpg
Because I'm a pusher. I push people.
I pushed my husband into law school. That was a bust.
I pushed myself into working three jobs.
And now I'm gonna push you because I know you're smarter than this.

SymphonyX
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:22 AM
http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/2004_Mean_Girls/Thumb/004MGI_Tina_Fey_003.jpg
Because I'm a pusher. I push people.
I pushed my husband into law school. That was a bust.
I pushed myself into working three jobs.
And now I'm gonna push you because I know you're smarter than this.

In Caroline's case, she's pushing you because she knows she can't really outhit you.

thegreendestiny
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:33 AM
Caroline is the queen of all pushers. She raised pushing to a new level. :worship:

Slutiana
Jun 27th, 2010, 05:04 AM
Uh no. I find DULLgheru very boring but I would never hate on her. Like I said, I respect her game. I just don't like to watch it.
:shrug:

Warsaw's game is probably the most similar to Wozniacki's on the tour, bar the fact that she actually has a some natural tennis skill, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Petkorazzi
Jun 27th, 2010, 06:27 AM
I have a lot of respect for say Meusburger whereas mostly I hate watching Caroline. Meusburger doesn't push on purpose :shrug: She just has no power, what can you expect her to do? While Caro who has shown that she can be aggressive whenever she wants to, just neglects that and throws the ball in the middle most of the time. :weirdo:

Polikarpov
Jun 27th, 2010, 06:36 AM
Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.

I agree. A pusher is someone you see at your local tennis club, blocking and dinking back balls.

TennisFan66
Jun 27th, 2010, 08:06 AM
This is not just about her, it's a general SEWTA topic.


Yeah sure it is :rolleyes: .. another thread opened with the sole purpose of bashing and insulting Caro ..

TennisFan66
Jun 27th, 2010, 08:18 AM
Wow :clap2: Congrats to the video maker for finding and putting together the only 10 winners Wozniacki has hit in her entire career :bowdown:

:help:

I read some of your comments in the 'Anna_K' threads and you made so much sense. But now this ... :rolleyes: .. Right whatever.


Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.

Funny thing is thats exactly what they claim. Them CHB - The Caro's Haterz Brigade - THEY alone understand tennis and everyone else is wrong :lol:

Svetlana)))
Jun 27th, 2010, 09:21 AM
Wow :clap2: Congrats to the video maker for finding and putting together the only 10 winners Wozniacki has hit in her entire career :bowdown:

:help:

Dis! :lol: He probably had to wait about 3 years to compile that

terjw
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:19 PM
Pushers do not make it to a WTA Tour main draw, much less #4 in the rankings. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no idea what they're watching.

Spot on. No idea or selective amnesia I think. Caro hasn't got a weapon like some of the players so she's not going to have such a high all out attacking game as other top players but to suggest she just pushes all the time is ridiculous. This myth perpetrated by a lot of brainless parrotts who just like the idea of hopping on the bandwagon and chanting Puchniacki but don't actually watch her matches..

Good video of rallies and Caro winning those points posted by Caratantcheva but then we have:

Wow :clap2: Congrats to the video maker for finding and putting together the only 10 winners Wozniacki has hit in her entire career :bowdown:

:help:

Don't let facts get in the way of a cheap laugh based on a lie.

I'll be kind and say your post is based on ignorance and just being a copycat with the pushing thing without watching her. The alternative is that you are deliberately promoting a lie. We know that she's a "pusher" by nature. But to suggest we hardly ever get anything else from her is just not true and I would have expected better from you of all posters.

Take any of her matches at Wimbledon or Roland Garros and there's more than enough to make a video of her like that. I've put her match stats from her matches at RG and Wimbledon into a spreadsheet to see her total eaned points, her earned points per game and per point etc.

It shows that in 1 in every 3 points she plays results in her winning that point and earning it by either forcing the error or an outright winner (i.e. it's not her opponent's UE). 3 points before we find something for a video hardly equates to it being difficult and needing her whole career to find the material for a video like that. For outright winners (though I don't know what the big deal is between an outright winner and an earned point where you force the opponent's error by say moving her around) then you get about 4 outright Caro winners every 5 games - not high but she does make them in all her matches.

On just the two matches I've actually watched her - she was very aggressive aganist Garbin at RG and went to the net of her own accord winning a ton of points there - pretty good for Caro. And at Wimbledon against Chang she was aggressive enough on her own serve. But once she got the break - she was content to keep the break and be passive when she was receiving.

No-one is disputing that she has fewer winners and is more passive than other players with a weapon. But a simple spreadsheet based on published stats as opposed to myths based on preconceived ideas shows you don't have to wait long - 3 points on average - before you see Caro construct and win an earned point. It also recognises that there is such a thing as earned points which are neither blazing outright winner opponent doesn't even get a raquet to nor UEs by opponent.

Caro's stats at RG and Wimbledon show:

Earned Point (not opponent's UE) = 35%
Unearned Point (opponent's UE) = 20%
Point Lost = 45%

Svetlana)))
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:27 PM
Spot on. No idea or selective amnesia I think. Caro hasn't got a weapon like some of the players so she's not going to have such a high all out attacking game as other top players but to suggest she just pushes all the time is ridiculous. This myth perpetrated by a lot of brainless parrotts who just like the idea of hopping on the bandwagon and chanting Puchniacki but don't actually watch her matches..

Good video of rallies and Caro winning those points posted by Caratantcheva but then we have:



Don't let facts get in the way of a cheap laugh based on a lie.

I'll be kind and say your post is based on ignorance and just being a copycat with the pushing thing without watching her. The alternative is that you are deliberately promoting a lie. We know that she's a "pusher" by nature. But to suggest we hardly ever get anything else from her is just not true and I would have expected better from you of all posters.

Take any of her matches at Wimbledon or Roland Garros and there's more than enough to make a video of her like that. I've put her match stats from her matches at RG and Wimbledon into a spreadsheet to see her total eaned points, her earned points per game and per point etc.

It shows that in 1 in every 3 points she plays results in her winning that point and earning it by either forcing the error or an outright winner (i.e. it's not her opponent's UE). 3 points before we find something for a video hardly equates to it being difficult and needing her whole career to find the material for a video like that. For outright winners (though I don't know what the big deal is between an outright winner and an earned point where you force the opponent's error by say moving her around) then you get about 4 outright Caro winners every 5 games - not high but she does make them in all her matches.

On just the two matches I've actually watched her - she was very aggressive aganist Garbin at RG and went to the net of her own accord winning a ton of points there - pretty good for Caro. And at Wimbledon against Chang she was aggressive enough on her own serve. But once she got the break - she was content to keep the break and be passive when she was receiving.

No-one is disputing that she has fewer winners and is more passive than other players with a weapon. But a simple spreadsheet based on published stats as opposed to myths based on preconceived ideas shows you don't have to wait long - 3 points on average - before you see Caro construct and win an earned point. It also recognises that there is such a thing as earned points which are neither blazing outright winner opponent doesn't even get a raquet to nor UEs by opponent.

Caro's stats at RG and Wimbledon show:

Earned Point (not opponent's UE) = 35%
Unearned Point (opponent's UE) = 20%
Point Lost = 45%

:hysteric: Relax.

cellophane
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:44 PM
Dulgheru. Caro is a power pusher. :o

Singleniacki
Jun 27th, 2010, 02:51 PM
Dulgheru has the ability to smash her backhand and hits tons of winners from it. I think Wozniacki is the ultimate pusher on tour, look where it has gotten her, proving pushing works :bowdown:

terjw
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:13 PM
:hysteric: Relax.

Ok - but do you want a serious conversation on this or not.What sort of conversation do you want - one which picks fun of Caro whether true or not, or one where we discuss facts. As someone who thought the comment on the person making the video picking her only winners in her career was so great - what do you actually think? Do you think it's true that Caro never hits winners or constructs points apart from the video. Or do you just think it's just funny. It's not true but it's all just one big joke. Anyone that say to the contrary - don't get uptight.

If you don't want a serious discussion - fine. For those who want a serious discussion on Caro - just pointing out the exactly how often she does earn point and hits winners - it's just way way more than nearly everyone who seriously or jokingly with their own agenda says and the stats scream this fact even if you don't see her.

Of course if it's not serious - all one big joke - well it depends on who you snipe at doesn't it. Maybe not so funny for you if we all gang up on Sveta or whoever you might be a fan of, make some half truth up, expand it into something completely false but say it in a funny way and then say relax if you point out it's not true.

You know what a gang on schoolchildren bullies picking on someone who get hauled up for what they've done usually say. We only did it for a joke. It maybe starts funny but sure isn''t funny or something to relax about for the one being picked on.

poulao
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:15 PM
Ofcause I find this tread funny, Caro will always win the vote, even if untrue. :lol:

But sometimes tings go to far, are all players that play Soderling pushers fx.? At least Caro is not in doubt of 'what to do' :haha: like some others are. ;)

Bronx19
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Its either Caro or Rads.

I think Rads is more blatant about it, hitting up middle court.

MechWarrior2k
Jun 27th, 2010, 03:37 PM
Jankovic pushes off her forehand wing 90% of the time. Safina has become quite a pusher off the forehand side of late. Peer has been criticized for pushing or borderline counter-punching. Pennetta rarely attacks. Medina Garrigues can get thrown in as well.

Beny
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:04 PM
Wozniacki and Dulgheru shouldnt be there. Not really pushers. Wozniacki only sometimes. And Dulgheru is clever, she knows when to play agressive and when defensive.

The biggest push-fest I´ve ever seen was Wozniak against Dementieva 2nd r.RG10 (Lena wasnt pushing) But Wozniak´s pushing was extreme, far more unbearable than Caro´ s.

MechWarrior2k
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:20 PM
Wozniacki vs Li, AO

Wozniacki 3 winners

danieln1
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:38 PM
3VkxVR1z460

Slow motion tennis

Radwanska is the ultimate pusher

Sean.
Jun 27th, 2010, 04:43 PM
The terms 'pusher', 'ball basher' & 'choke' are used far too much on this sight by people who don't actually understand what they mean. :yawn:

Hingis? Pusher? Really? :smash:

Sylvester
Jun 27th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Hingis, a pusher? :spit:

I miss Smashnova :sad: Moonball Pusher :hearts:

twight6
Jun 27th, 2010, 05:22 PM
I read some of your comments in the 'Anna_K' threads and you made so much sense. But now this ... :rolleyes: .. Right whatever.




Funny thing is thats exactly what they claim. Them CHB - The Caro's Haterz Brigade - THEY alone understand tennis and everyone else is wrong :lol:

Spot on. No idea or selective amnesia I think. Caro hasn't got a weapon like some of the players so she's not going to have such a high all out attacking game as other top players but to suggest she just pushes all the time is ridiculous. This myth perpetrated by a lot of brainless parrotts who just like the idea of hopping on the bandwagon and chanting Puchniacki but don't actually watch her matches..

Good video of rallies and Caro winning those points posted by Caratantcheva but then we have:



Don't let facts get in the way of a cheap laugh based on a lie.

I'll be kind and say your post is based on ignorance and just being a copycat with the pushing thing without watching her. The alternative is that you are deliberately promoting a lie. We know that she's a "pusher" by nature. But to suggest we hardly ever get anything else from her is just not true and I would have expected better from you of all posters.

Take any of her matches at Wimbledon or Roland Garros and there's more than enough to make a video of her like that. I've put her match stats from her matches at RG and Wimbledon into a spreadsheet to see her total eaned points, her earned points per game and per point etc.

It shows that in 1 in every 3 points she plays results in her winning that point and earning it by either forcing the error or an outright winner (i.e. it's not her opponent's UE). 3 points before we find something for a video hardly equates to it being difficult and needing her whole career to find the material for a video like that. For outright winners (though I don't know what the big deal is between an outright winner and an earned point where you force the opponent's error by say moving her around) then you get about 4 outright Caro winners every 5 games - not high but she does make them in all her matches.

On just the two matches I've actually watched her - she was very aggressive aganist Garbin at RG and went to the net of her own accord winning a ton of points there - pretty good for Caro. And at Wimbledon against Chang she was aggressive enough on her own serve. But once she got the break - she was content to keep the break and be passive when she was receiving.

No-one is disputing that she has fewer winners and is more passive than other players with a weapon. But a simple spreadsheet based on published stats as opposed to myths based on preconceived ideas shows you don't have to wait long - 3 points on average - before you see Caro construct and win an earned point. It also recognises that there is such a thing as earned points which are neither blazing outright winner opponent doesn't even get a raquet to nor UEs by opponent.

Caro's stats at RG and Wimbledon show:

Earned Point (not opponent's UE) = 35%
Unearned Point (opponent's UE) = 20%
Point Lost = 45%

:sobbing: I was only joking, I like Wozniacki. I forgot that everyone is all hyper-sensitive now because of all the bashing that actually does occur on this forum.

If my joke offended you, I'll gladly apologize :wavey: Sorry!

Svetlana)))
Jun 28th, 2010, 08:26 AM
Ok - but do you want a serious conversation on this or not.What sort of conversation do you want - one which picks fun of Caro whether true or not, or one where we discuss facts. As someone who thought the comment on the person making the video picking her only winners in her career was so great - what do you actually think? Do you think it's true that Caro never hits winners or constructs points apart from the video. Or do you just think it's just funny. It's not true but it's all just one big joke. Anyone that say to the contrary - don't get uptight.

If you don't want a serious discussion - fine. For those who want a serious discussion on Caro - just pointing out the exactly how often she does earn point and hits winners - it's just way way more than nearly everyone who seriously or jokingly with their own agenda says and the stats scream this fact even if you don't see her.

Of course if it's not serious - all one big joke - well it depends on who you snipe at doesn't it. Maybe not so funny for you if we all gang up on Sveta or whoever you might be a fan of, make some half truth up, expand it into something completely false but say it in a funny way and then say relax if you point out it's not true.

You know what a gang on schoolchildren bullies picking on someone who get hauled up for what they've done usually say. We only did it for a joke. It maybe starts funny but sure isn''t funny or something to relax about for the one being picked on.

It's obviously just an exaggeration of her not-so-aggressive style. I do think she doesn't construct points 90% of the time and just hits it up the middle. However, her strength lies in her ability to make opponents hit shots from difficult positions. One man's meat is another man's poison. Obviously you appreciate that kind of style but to many of us, including myself, that kind of style is not befitting of a grand slam champion because ultimately you need to beat the best to win and the moment a top 40 player brings her A game, Caro is easily dusted.

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:11 AM
:sobbing: I was only joking, I like Wozniacki. I forgot that everyone is all hyper-sensitive now because of all the bashing that actually does occur on this forum.

If my joke offended you, I'll gladly apologize :wavey: Sorry!


Hi twight,

no wasn't offended. Takes a bit more than internet board posts :lol: .. Making a joke. Gotcha. Didn't get that. You got me off guard to be honest, as I was nodding in agreement when reading some of your other posts ... Cheers!

Carotastrophe
Jun 28th, 2010, 09:13 AM
I really Like Caro, and i dont think she is the most extreme pusher

nevetssllim
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:02 AM
AMG. :help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dif6LNOAL3U

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 10:19 AM
I think Caro VS Oudin at the 09 USO possibly showed Caro at the height of her evil.

This was the match where Caro's only winner in the second set was a letcord.

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poulao
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:04 AM
I think Caro VS Oudin at the 09 USO possibly showed Caro at the height of her evil.

This was the match where Caro's only winner in the second set was a letcord.


You are right, one winner and she won the set comfortable. ;) That takes some skills :haha:

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:10 AM
You are right, one winner and she won the set comfortable. ;) That takes some skills :haha:
But seriously you can't watch that and then wonder why Caro has haters surely. :lol:

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:17 AM
But seriously you can't watch that and then wonder why Caro has haters surely. :lol:


Yes I can. Grown up people don't 'hate' a sports person just because they don't like that sports persons style of game or play.

If you don't like how England plays rugby - and my Gud, England rugby union. Freaking boring and defensive. DONT WATCH. Its about winning and thats what they did down in Aussie land in 2003. Just an example.

As for Caro's lack of winners, I am even leaving the obvious aside. You're totally cherry picking a single clip to suit YOUR already fixed view.

PS If you want to follow a sport, which has style judgement, I'd recommend you to look at ice dancing and ski jumping. You gotta be in agreement with the judges though. Else you'll just moan again :)

Svetlana)))
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:19 AM
Tennisfan66, can you name us and provide a video of a match where Caro comprehensively outplayed a decent/good opponent? By constructing points etc. I'm not demanding she hit 20 winners, don't get me wrong but a match where she was tactically amazing, drawing many FORCED errors?

Beat
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:22 AM
if you wanna know statistically, why do you include a poll?

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:23 AM
Tennisfan66, can you name us and provide a video of a match where Caro comprehensively outplayed a decent/good opponent? By constructing points etc. I'm not demanding she hit 20 winners, don't get me wrong but a match where she was tactically amazing, drawing many FORCED errors?

and why would I have to do this? ... Its completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You can dislike Caro as much as you like. Just keep it clean. Leave the insults and inuendo at the door. I on the other hand will continue to follow her (which I have done since the girl was 13) even she doesn't hit a single winner in her R4 here later today.

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:32 AM
Yes I can. Grown up people don't 'hate' a sports person just because they don't like that sports persons style of game or play.

If you don't like how England plays rugby - and my Gud, England rugby union. Freaking boring and defensive. DONT WATCH. Its about winning and thats what they did down in Aussie land in 2003. Just an example.

As for Caro's lack of winners, I am even leaving the obvious aside. You're totally cherry picking a single clip to suit YOUR already fixed view.

PS If you want to follow a sport, which has style judgement, I'd recommend you to look at ice dancing and ski jumping. You gotta be in agreement with the judges though. Else you'll just moan again :)
OK maybe you're taking the word 'hate' too literally. Maybe I should rephrase to "You can't watch clips like that and wonder why her game is so heavily criticized'. ;) That better? I doubt anyone here truly loses sleep because they hate Caro so much. :lol:

And I almost forgot - don't act like that one clip is an exception. :lol:

poulao
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:32 AM
But seriously you can't watch that and then wonder why Caro has haters surely. :lol:

I remember the match and Caro was cool, but Oudin was frustrated. I'm usualy light hearted about all this, I just hope Caro remains intact, and does not go the rute of Anna C. Ana and others, that forgot what brought them to the top.:)

Svetlana)))
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:43 AM
and why would I have to do this? ... Its completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You can dislike Caro as much as you like. Just keep it clean. Leave the insults and inuendo at the door. I on the other hand will continue to follow her (which I have done since the girl was 13) even she doesn't hit a single winner in her R4 here later today.

It is because if you can't.... then that means she's probably the biggest pusher.

Coke Zero
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:44 AM
There's no way to determine the most extreme pusher, statistically. You can just observe and decide for yourself but for me it's Wozniacki.

To me, a pusher is someone who uses the pushing technique to win, and does not have another game plan up their sleaves if things aren't working. I don't think Wozniacki has anything else to her game except being passive and waiting for errors, except for her BH. She has no net game. Her serve isn't really a weapon. When trying to be offensive with her FH it doesn't go well. Miss Backhand can attack off with her 2 hander, but she doesn't do it enough against the top players. I say against the top players because I don't see the problem with pushing if you can beat the players in front of you. Against the lesser players, her game style is enough to win so I don't have a problem with her pushing. But she has nothing else to offer, evident in the fact she's yet to register a win over Serena, Venus, Jankovic, Sharapova, Ivanovic. In fact I think her only win over a former #1 came over an on-the-decline Mauresmo. Pushing is okay, as long as you have the game to bail yourself out when it's not working. It doesn't work against the elite players, and apparently Wozniacki doesn't have anything but pushing in her arsenal.

All of that said, I say Wozniacki because I see the most of her. I don't see Dulgheru, Craybas, De los Rios or Meusburger all that often. I don't think Radwanska is a pusher, I just think she struggles to generate pace off her groundies. I can say that I've never seen as big a pusher as Wozniacki reach the TOP 5 or get the exposure that she has had, which just means she's both very good at what she does and very opportunistic.

ZeroSOFInfinity
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:45 AM
I would guess Wozniacki

Anyone who remembers Caro's infamous "only 3-winners" match will definitely agree with you.

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:51 AM
OK maybe you're taking the word 'hate' too literally. Maybe I should rephrase to "You can't watch clips like that and wonder why her game is so heavily criticized'. ;) That better? I doubt anyone here truly loses sleep because they hate Caro so much. :lol:

And I almost forgot - don't act like that one clip is an exception. :lol:

I am sorry, but I just cannot take it serious what some loud mouths on TF thinks. As for more serious critics, of course there are some. Matts Willander is certainly one. A local tennis 'expert' called Peter Bastiansen is another. Which is fine. They are entitled to their opinions and some points are also valid. .. but to just brush it 'heavily criticized' its simply just not true. But I fear trying to discuss this topic in a more serious way - and here :lol: - is going to be rather futile.

As for the clip. Yes you are cherry picking. Go back to have a look at the 'Caroline winners watch', which I am sure you've contributed many :) and :lol: to yourself and see how that died out. Which is pretty much my point. You and others here will not change your view. Its fine. You can keep your views. Caro hits one moonball = she is the moonball queen. She hits 25 winners in a match = you find something else to bitch and moan about.

Its not 'resistance is futile' its 'discussion is futile' ..

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:53 AM
It is because if you can't.... then that means she's probably the biggest pusher.


So if we all agree, will you then be happy? ... It doesn't have any bearings what-so-ever to anything what-so-ever...

Caro is the biggest pusher ever. Are you happy now?

Svetlana)))
Jun 28th, 2010, 11:56 AM
So if we all agree, will you then be happy? ... It doesn't have any bearings what-so-ever to anything what-so-ever...

Caro is the biggest pusher ever. Are you happy now?

YeSS!!11oneone!!1!

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:03 PM
I am sorry, but I just cannot take it serious what some loud mouths on TF thinks. As for more serious critics, of course there are some. Matts Willander is certainly one. A local tennis 'expert' called Peter Bastiansen is another. Which is fine. They are entitled to their opinions and some points are also valid. .. but to just brush it 'heavily criticized' its simply just not true. But I fear trying to discuss this topic in a more serious way - and here :lol: - is going to be rather futile.

As for the clip. Yes you are cherry picking. Go back to have a look at the 'Caroline winners watch', which I am sure you've contributed many :) and :lol: to yourself and see how that died out. Which is pretty much my point. You and others here will not change your view. Its fine. You can keep your views. Caro hits one moonball = she is the moonball queen. She hits 25 winners in a match = you find something else to bitch and moan about.

Its not 'resistance is futile' its 'discussion is futile' ..
I'm sorry but it is heavily criticized, otherwise Caro herself wouldn't have seen the need to post not one, but two defensive blog entries saying that she doesn't give a fuck what people think about her game (clearly she does if you ask me, otherwise she'd have ignored it). I mean Jesus Christ, even a select couple of sports journalists have even posted whole articles stepping in to defend her. :lol: If her game wasn't heavily criticized none of this would be happening.

Hell, during Madrid last year even the coaches were saying things like "She's not hurting you with her shots" or "She's not doing anything but waiting for your mistakes". :shrug: Even one of her BFFs U. Radwanska exclaimed in Polish "She's just pushing the ball!" during a match between the two last year.

I know you'd love to think that the TF opinion of Caro's game exists only here but it exists all over the tennis world. :wavey:

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:09 PM
I'm sorry but it is heavily criticized, otherwise Caro herself wouldn't have seen the need to post not one, but two defensive blog entries saying that she doesn't give a fuck what people think about her game (clearly she does if you ask me, otherwise she'd have ignored it). I mean Jesus Christ, even a select couple of sports journalists have even posted whole articles stepping in to defend her. :lol: If her game wasn't heavily criticized none of this would be happening.

Hell, during Madrid last year even the coaches were saying things like "She's not hurting you with her shots" or "She's not doing anything but waiting for your mistakes". :shrug:

I know you'd love to think that the TF opinion of Caro's game exists only here but it exists all over the tennis world. :wavey:


I am sure if you go further back than Madrid 2009, you will find Caro's shot were hurting opponents even less. .. Tennis is dynamic, not static. In 2008 critics were calling her skinny and weak - and rightly so. Now she's one of the fittest and physically strongest on the tour. (endurance, not power .. just before you start talking power shots) But as I said, your view is fixed and wont change. Discussion is futile.

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:11 PM
I am sure if you go further back than Madrid 2009, you will find Caro's shot were hurting opponents even less. .. Tennis is dynamic, not static. In 2008 critics were calling her skinny and weak - and rightly so. Now she's one of the fittest and physically strongest on the tour. (endurance, not power .. just before you start talking power shots) But as I said, your view is fixed and wont change. Discussion is futile.
There's no difference between her strokes this year and last. :shrug: Don't forget it's this year when she hit only 3 winners past Li at the AO. And yes, I have seen bits and pieces of her matches. Absolutely no change in her game.

Hian
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:12 PM
Nice challenge :lol:
But Pushniacki is THE PUSHER. :wavey:

Coke Zero
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:14 PM
I am sure if you go further back than Madrid 2009, you will find Caro's shot were hurting opponents even less. .. Tennis is dynamic, not static. In 2008 critics were calling her skinny and weak - and rightly so. Now she's one of the fittest and physically strongest on the tour. (endurance, not power .. just before you start talking power shots) But as I said, your view is fixed and wont change. Discussion is futile.

But has her game changed? Her serve has probably improved, but off the ground her tact remains largely the same. Her net game hasn't improved either, despite playing doubles.

TennisFan66
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:15 PM
There's no difference between her strokes this year and last. :shrug: Don't forget it's this year when she hit only 3 winners past Li at the AO. And yes, I have seen bits and pieces of her matches. Absolutely no change in her game.


Ok. Whatever. Its pointless, but I gave it a chance.

Coke Zero
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Ok. Whatever. Its pointless, but I gave it a chance.

Explain how her game has evolved to become more offensive. :shrug:

Pops Maellard
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Explain how her game has evolved to become more offensive. :shrug:
:secret: They can't, because it hasn't. ;)

flareon
Jun 28th, 2010, 12:25 PM
I think Caro VS Oudin at the 09 USO possibly showed Caro at the height of her evil.

This was the match where Caro's only winner in the second set was a letcord.

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That is poor.

I like Wozniacki but I just wish she went for it more... I did not vote for her in this poll i went with dulgheru!