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samsam4087
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:21 AM
Who is greater? Gabriela Sabatini or Jana Novotna?

:confused::confused::confused:

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/gabriela-sabatini-4.jpg

http://i.idnes.cz/08/071/gal/BER2449c3_novotna.jpg

In The Zone
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:23 AM
Sabatini, easily. Just because they both have one slam doesn't mean you can compare them.

KanSuke
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:40 AM
Samsam's back :eek: :woohoo:

saska77
Nov 5th, 2009, 05:48 AM
I am trying ot really hard to vote but I can't. Can't do it!

Love them both, I know Sabatini is a little greater but Novotna...

Nope can't.

CAn you pls split my vote? :sad:

A Magicman
Nov 5th, 2009, 07:25 AM
It causes physical pain to say that, but Sabatini.

But you also gotta give Novotna kudos as she was the mother of all chokers.

moby
Nov 5th, 2009, 07:36 AM
Gaby Semitini might have the better slam record, bigger titles, more impressive wins, but this stat says it all:

Jana Novotna - $ 11,249,284
Gabriela Sabatini - $8,785,850

;)

No seriously, isn't it a better question to speculate which one of the two has a hotter secret girlfriend?

skanky~skanketta
Nov 5th, 2009, 07:47 AM
Gaby Semitini might have the better slam record, bigger titles, more impressive wins, but this stat says it all:

Jana Novotna - $ 11,249,284
Gabriela Sabatini - $8,785,850

;)

No seriously, isn't it a better question to speculate which one of the two has a hotter secret girlfriend?
The better question to ask is who makes the hotter girlfriend. Which is Gabs! :p

That said, Gaby is definitely greater. Better head to heads, bigger tournament wins. Sure, she earned lesser, but only because she retired young.

And while both was massive chokers, Novotna takes the cake here.

PLP
Nov 5th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Well I am in the minority here, but I had to vote for Jana.
While their accomplishments in singles are incredibly close, Jana has multiple slam titles in Doubles and Mixed, as well as winning the YEC in BOTH singles and doubles in 1997.
They are both beautifully unique champions though.

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 5th, 2009, 11:55 AM
is this a joke
Gaby is 1000000 better

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 5th, 2009, 11:56 AM
Gaby Semitini might have the better slam record, bigger titles, more impressive wins, but this stat says it all:

Jana Novotna - $ 11,249,284
Gabriela Sabatini - $8,785,850

;)

No seriously, isn't it a better question to speculate which one of the two has a hotter secret girlfriend?

money :rolleyes:

off court
Gaby probably 200M
Novotna 0.1M

saska77
Nov 5th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Gaby Semitini might have the better slam record, bigger titles, more impressive wins, but this stat says it all:

Jana Novotna - $ 11,249,284
Gabriela Sabatini - $8,785,850

;)

No seriously, isn't it a better question to speculate which one of the two has a hotter secret girlfriend?

seriously - I was going to ask the same thing - I shall trawl the net tonight to find out more info :devil:

markdelaney
Nov 5th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Novotna was the better doubles player by miles but in singles it's a very close call. Both choked away winning positions quite often and both gave problems to the number one ranked player if they were on top of their game ! Based on head to heads I'd choose Sabatini but not on grass !

Dave.
Nov 5th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Novotna.


Sabatini probably better in singles although Novotna still had more slam singles finals. Doubles puts Novotna way ahead.

!Gio!
Nov 5th, 2009, 01:01 PM
I love both Jana and Gabby but there is not doubt here that Gabby was better in almost all aspects!

Gabby Sabatini has less money because most of her success came from (87-92), Jana's success came later on (93-98), the word we are looking for is inflation. She earned more, because she got paid more, its as simple as that.:) Not to mention Jana played longer.

By the way Gabby Leads the head to head 10-3, with their last 4 out of 5 being straight set wins for her.

Career Win/Loss record is 632/189 compared to Jana who is 571/225.
Gabby not only has won much bigger titles in her career but she has 27 to Jana's 24 titles. Gabby has reached the grand slam QF 28 times, the semifinals 18 times, and the finals 3 times.
Jana has reached the QF 22 times, SF 8 times, and the finals 4 times.
Gabby has 2 YEC titles, reached the finals 4 times, and the semis 7 times.
Jana has won 1 YEC, reached only 1 final and reached the Semis 3 times.

And lets not even go into their head to head records against Graf and the rest of the pack.
Gabby has beaten Steffi 11 times, more than any other player and well Jana has beaten her 4 times out of 33 tries.
Gabby has beaten Navratilova 6 times and Jana has beaten her only once.

Both ladies had great careers and failed to live up to their full potential but Gabby is the winner here!!!

thrust
Nov 5th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Gabriela! I loved her, even though she nearly killed me losing that Wimbledon final.

AnnaK_4ever
Nov 5th, 2009, 01:36 PM
Sabatini won more titles, won bigger titles and had a much more stellar GS record. Besides, IIRC, Novotna never won a tier II title on hardcourts.

nat75
Nov 5th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Gaby :hearts:

Matt01
Nov 5th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Sabatini won more titles, won bigger titles and had a much more stellar GS record. Besides, IIRC, Novotna never won a tier II title on hardcourts.


Linz.


And lets not even go into their head to head records against Graf and the rest of the pack.
Gabby has beaten Steffi 11 times, more than any other player and well Jana has beaten her 4 times out of 33 tries.
Gabby has beaten Navratilova 6 times and Jana has beaten her only once.


Why not include Monica Seles in this list? Gaby's record against her is abysmal while Jana's is respectable :p


It's funny that so often here people are trying to tell me that Slams are everything when it comes to greatness but in this case they say that Gaby is greater even though Jana has reached 4 Slam finals while Gaby has only 3 :p

spencercarlos
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Linz.





Why not include Monica Seles in this list? Gaby's record against her is abysmal while Jana's is respectable :p


It's funny that so often here people are trying to tell me that Slams are everything when it comes to greatness but in this case they say that Gaby is greater even though Jana has reached 4 Slam finals while Gaby has only 3 :p
Linz was an INDOOR tournament. So Novotna never won a Tier II hardcourt Outdoor event.

Jana reached only 9 slams semis while Sabatini reached that stage 18 times :p.


-Plus 2 YEC } 1 YEC.
-Gaby reached YEC final 4 times to Janaīs 1.

This indoors, fast carpet a surface that actually was not the most suitable for Sabatini.

Head to head between the two 9-4 or 10-4 i dont remmeber the exact number Sabatini.

spencercarlos
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:20 PM
Who is greater? Gabriela Sabatini or Jana Novotna?

:confused::confused::confused:

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/gabriela-sabatini-4.jpg

http://i.idnes.cz/08/071/gal/BER2449c3_novotna.jpg
Sabatini has a greater look indeed. No question about this poll.


PS: Why you donīt stop trolling Sabatini, you get into her forum every once in a while to continuosly ask why she is not married yet, and suggest that she is lesbian and bla bla bla. Novotna for a fact was married to Mandlikova in the early 90ties. Get over this topic both are amazingly talented players. Sabatini with an edge in singles. Novotna with a huge edge in doubles. For me Sabatini was clearly better :p

Matt01
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Linz was an INDOOR tournament. So Novotna never won a Tier II hardcourt Outdoor event.


Doesn't matter. According to Wikipedia, when Novotna won Linz, it was a hardcourt tournament so Novotna won big tournaments on all surfaces. Did Gaby ever win a tournament on grass? I don't think so :p

!Gio!
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Linz.





Why not include Monica Seles in this list? Gaby's record against her is abysmal while Jana's is respectable :p


It's funny that so often here people are trying to tell me that Slams are everything when it comes to greatness but in this case they say that Gaby is greater even though Jana has reached 4 Slam finals while Gaby has only 3 :p

Well almost all of the wins that Monica had over Gabby was before Monica got stabbed, she was a completely different player than (dominating everyone besides Steffi) and Gabby still managed to beat peak Seles twice(overall 3 times). While in Jana's case 3 out of the 4 times that she beat Seles was post stabbing, 1996 and 1997. The one other time was in 1989 when Monica was only 15 years old.:lol:

By the way, Linz was indoors(much different than outdoor hard)!

And while we are speaking on the subject of grand slams, well like I said before Gabby reached 18 semifinals compared to Jana's 9. Jana did reach one more grand slam final than Gabby but overall Gabby was consistently much better than Jana!!!

Not to mention that Gabby reached her biggest success on the tour while facing a different Graf, Vicario, and Seles among others like Navratilova, at that time where was Jana??? (she is two years older than Gabby). Jana's biggest success came in 96, 97, 98 , that was post stabbing Monica Seles, injured Steffi Graf(Surgery in 97), and a weaker Arantxa (97 and beyond).
:wavey:

!Gio!
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:45 PM
Linz was an INDOOR tournament. So Novotna never won a Tier II hardcourt Outdoor event.

Jana reached only 9 slams semis while Sabatini reached that stage 18 times :p.


-Plus 2 YEC } 1 YEC.
-Gaby reached YEC final 4 times to Janaīs 1.

This indoors, fast carpet a surface that actually was not the most suitable for Sabatini.

Head to head between the two 9-4 or 10-4 i dont remmeber the exact number Sabatini.

10-3:angel:

!Gio!
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Novotna was better in doubles, Sabatini was better in singles but overall for me Gabby was the better player and the bigger talent but thats just my opinion!:)

Matt01
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:54 PM
Not to mention that Gabby reached her biggest success on the tour while facing a different Graf, Vicario, and Seles among others like Navratilova, at that time where was Jana??? (she is two years older than Gabby). Jana's biggest success came in 96, 97, 98 , that was post stabbing Monica Seles, injured Steffi Graf(Surgery in 97), and a weaker Arantxa (97 and beyond).
:wavey:


According to my friend spencercarlos 1998-99 were the golden years of women's tennis so I'd say it's quite remarkable that Jana was so successfull in 1998 :angel:

Acinolbaj
Nov 5th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Gabriela has her own fragrance also, thatīs big plus :lol::lol::lol:

seriously Novotna;)

!Gio!
Nov 5th, 2009, 05:04 PM
According to my friend spencercarlos 1998-99 were the golden years of women's tennis so I'd say it's quite remarkable that Jana was so successfull in 1998 :angel:

Hey Jana was an amazing player with a beautiful game :worship:and she never quite lived up to her potential(choked away some important matches, much like Gabby), but I still think Gabby was a bit better, but that;s just my opinion.
By the way looking at there Grand slam title win, Jana beat Nathalie in the final while Gabby beat Steffi:drool:!

saska77
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Gaby Semitini might have the better slam record, bigger titles, more impressive wins, but this stat says it all:

Jana Novotna - $ 11,249,284
Gabriela Sabatini - $8,785,850

;)

No seriously, isn't it a better question to speculate which one of the two has a hotter secret girlfriend?

:banghead::banghead:i tried and looked everywhere for pics or info to decide who has the hotter GF and I must admit I failed.

If you type anything to do with tennis and lesbian into google, it goes off and fetches Sharapova as top ten links :lol::help:

Anyway - something makes me go for Jana on this one, classy lady

saska77
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:43 PM
Novotna for a fact was married to Mandlikova in the early 90ties.
:p

I am sorry but I dont think you have the correct info here...can you elaborate?

I think they were still both citizens of Czechoslovakia (Hana had a dual citizenship) and I am damn sure that at that time gay marriage was not legal here.

Steffica Greles
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:55 PM
Both at their best? Novotna on grass, indoors or possibly hard. Gabi on clay.

Better career? Sabatini marginally, although Jana had one more slam final.

spencercarlos
Nov 6th, 2009, 01:11 AM
Both at their best? Novotna on grass, indoors or possibly hard. Gabi on clay.

Better career? Sabatini marginally, although Jana had one more slam final.
Indoors i would even put Sabatini ahead of Jana. Simply because of:
-2 YEC Titiles
-2 YEC RU
-2 Tokio Pan Pacific Titles. Both wins over Martina Navratilova in finals. Beat Graf there also along the way in 1991.

On the biggest event on the tour Indoors, Novotna has "just" only 1 win. 1997. 0 RU.

On hardcourts Sabatini much is better IMO. Just by her Grand Slam win at the Usopen is enough. Titles in Miami (1), VS Florida (3), Sydney (2) compared to Novotnaīs hardcourt resume, she really stands way too short.

Plus 1 YEC, 9 more GS semifinals is not a "marginal" difference IMO.

spencercarlos
Nov 6th, 2009, 01:15 AM
According to my friend spencercarlos 1998-99 were the golden years of women's tennis so I'd say it's quite remarkable that Jana was so successfull in 1998 :angel:
I said the period was interesting because of the many champions and different generations involved but hard to argue that players like Graf, Seles, the Williamses were playing at their peak in 98-99. Graf had a reconstructed knee, Seles never the same after the stabbing and Venus and Serena were up and coming, especially Serena.

spencercarlos
Nov 6th, 2009, 01:20 AM
Doesn't matter. According to Wikipedia, when Novotna won Linz, it was a hardcourt tournament so Novotna won big tournaments on all surfaces. Did Gaby ever win a tournament on grass? I don't think so :p
Gaby never won a grasscourt tournament. Yet she reached Wimbledon SF 3 times (86,90,92) and was RU in 91.

She rarely played an Eastbourne or Birmingham to win a grass court. So bad Gaby for being like 0/14 on grass court events won. :rolleyes:

While Novotna played around 80 (probably more) tournaments on hardcourts/outdoors, never able to win an important one.

!Gio!
Nov 6th, 2009, 08:27 AM
Gaby never won a grasscourt tournament. Yet she reached Wimbledon SF 3 times (86,90,92) and was RU in 91.

She rarely played an Eastbourne or Birmingham to win a grass court. So bad Gaby for being like 0/14 on grass court events won. :rolleyes:

While Novotna played around 80 (probably more) tournaments on hardcourts/outdoors, never able to win an important one.

I concur:worship:

Matt01
Nov 6th, 2009, 09:27 AM
I said the period was interesting because of the many champions and different generations involved but hard to argue that players like Graf, Seles, the Williamses were playing at their peak in 98-99. Graf had a reconstructed knee, Seles never the same after the stabbing and Venus and Serena were up and coming, especially Serena.


Oh, sorry then. I forgot that the golden year of women's tennis was 1990 when Gaby won her only Slam ;)

Mike25
Nov 23rd, 2009, 10:53 PM
Indoors i would even put Sabatini ahead of Jana. Simply because of:
-2 YEC Titiles
-2 YEC RU
-2 Tokio Pan Pacific Titles. Both wins over Martina Navratilova in finals. Beat Graf there also along the way in 1991.

On the biggest event on the tour Indoors, Novotna has "just" only 1 win. 1997. 0 RU.

On hardcourts Sabatini much is better IMO. Just by her Grand Slam win at the Usopen is enough. Titles in Miami (1), VS Florida (3), Sydney (2) compared to Novotnaīs hardcourt resume, she really stands way too short.

Plus 1 YEC, 9 more GS semifinals is not a "marginal" difference IMO.

Hey Spencercarlos,

Next thing, you'll try and convince everyone Sabatini was better then Jana on grass, just like any other surface. Just as usual, you seem to forget Jana was a solid, if not spectacular, hardcourt and indoor surface player as well. I'm not going to go over all the numbers, as we've been down this road way too many times.

But the bottom line is, for as good a singles player as Sabatini was, she didn't really accomplish more then Jana did. And some will argue, Jana's career was more successful then Sabatini's. I know there is nothing you can say to change my mind, and vice versa. But most hard core fans look at Sabatini's career as a mixed bag, at best. As for Jana, she got the absolute most she could out of her game. The end result, in my opinion, Sabatini underachieved, while Jana overachieved. I don't know about you, but I'm far more impressed with someone who overachieves, as oppossed to someone who underachieves. :wavey:

Steffica Greles
Nov 24th, 2009, 12:07 AM
Indoors i would even put Sabatini ahead of Jana. Simply because of:
-2 YEC Titiles
-2 YEC RU
-2 Tokio Pan Pacific Titles. Both wins over Martina Navratilova in finals. Beat Graf there also along the way in 1991.

On the biggest event on the tour Indoors, Novotna has "just" only 1 win. 1997. 0 RU.

On hardcourts Sabatini much is better IMO. Just by her Grand Slam win at the Usopen is enough. Titles in Miami (1), VS Florida (3), Sydney (2) compared to Novotnaīs hardcourt resume, she really stands way too short.

Plus 1 YEC, 9 more GS semifinals is not a "marginal" difference IMO.

Whatever you say, but Gabi had problems with aggression throughout her career: when she lost matches, it was because she sat back. Jana Novotna didn't really even have that option in her game. She was naturally aggressive. When she was at the net, she was a wall.

Gabi had more of an all-round game, but I think at her best Jana would have been all over Gabi on all surfaces except clay by virtue of her aggression.

Jana did not peak until Sabatini was waning so we'll never see a true stack-up. But to those who stupidly suggest Jana reached her peak only when Seles was out of the game and Sabatini was declining, I must remind them that Jana DID peak in the latter half of 1996 through to early 1999, when women's tennis was going through a revolution and she had a winning record over Venus Williams, and a healthy record over Hingis too.

Steffica Greles
Nov 24th, 2009, 12:13 AM
As for Jana, she got the absolute most she could out of her game. The end result, in my opinion, Sabatini underachieved, while Jana overachieved. I don't know about you, but I'm far more impressed with someone who overachieves, as oppossed to someone who underachieves. :wavey:

Jana was a huge underachiever!!! And I say that as an admirer!

She did not do anything on grass until she was 24?!?! How on earth did that happen, with her game? She did not win more than one Wimbledon title - again, astonishing, given that from 1993 onwards there was no woman in the game as suited to grass (she should have beaten Martina in 1994). In 1994,95,96,97 she could have won two of those titles with a bit more bottle.

Jana didn't even enter the top 10 until she was 22, which was quite advanced in age for those days.

She lost the 1998 US Open semi-final against Hingis from 4-1 up in the final set. That win would have been the number one ranking and possibly another slam.

LightWarrior
Nov 24th, 2009, 12:38 AM
They are both great chokers and underachievers.

spencercarlos
Nov 24th, 2009, 01:40 AM
Whatever you say, but Gabi had problems with aggression throughout her career: when she lost matches, it was because she sat back. Jana Novotna didn't really even have that option in her game. She was naturally aggressive. When she was at the net, she was a wall.

Gabi had more of an all-round game, but I think at her best Jana would have been all over Gabi on all surfaces except clay by virtue of her aggression.

Jana did not peak until Sabatini was waning so we'll never see a true stack-up. But to those who stupidly suggest Jana reached her peak only when Seles was out of the game and Sabatini was declining, I must remind them that Jana DID peak in the latter half of 1996 through to early 1999, when women's tennis was going through a revolution and she had a winning record over Venus Williams, and a healthy record over Hingis too.
You seem to forget that Sabatini at her best played a net rushing game and agressive game from the back of the court.

Given to that Sabatini had a better game off the backcourt than Jana, and adding that agressive net rushing style, which she employed i certainly doubt that Jana would have dominated her just because of the better serving. Still we will never know how this would have been.

Still my take is that Sabatini at her best (mid1990-mid1992) made the top players suffer tremendouly, she got wins over everybody out there, 2 wins on clay against Monica in Rome finals, the 5 wins in a row against Graf and 8 out of 7 matches, beat Arantxa twice on clay in 1991 (the year Arantxa made RG final), she also beat Navratilova twice indoors at Tokio PP, another big event indoors.

To sum it if the best Sabatini held up against the likes of Graf, Seles, Navratilova and the rest between 1990-1992, i think she would have handled Novotnaīs best as well, just like she did during her 10-3 all time head to head against Jana, without a doubt.

spencercarlos
Nov 24th, 2009, 01:48 AM
Hey Spencercarlos,

Next thing, you'll try and convince everyone Sabatini was better then Jana on grass, just like any other surface. Just as usual, you seem to forget Jana was a solid, if not spectacular, hardcourt and indoor surface player as well. I'm not going to go over all the numbers, as we've been down this road way too many times.

But the bottom line is, for as good a singles player as Sabatini was, she didn't really accomplish more then Jana did. And some will argue, Jana's career was more successful then Sabatini's. I know there is nothing you can say to change my mind, and vice versa. But most hard core fans look at Sabatini's career as a mixed bag, at best. As for Jana, she got the absolute most she could out of her game. The end result, in my opinion, Sabatini underachieved, while Jana overachieved. I don't know about you, but I'm far more impressed with someone who overachieves, as oppossed to someone who underachieves. :wavey:
Again you fail to elaborate.

If Sabatini was worse on indoors than Jana, then explain why Sabatini had a much better resume, but a much much better than Jana had. Say again the YEC played on a fast indoor carpet at Madison Square Garden arguably the biggest indoor event for the women.

At this kind of event Sabatini was able to beat players like Graf, Navratilova, Martinez, Sukova, Capriati, Davenport, and even Novotna.

But i will also disagree with you, i think that Jana and Sabatini should have way more singlesīs slams than they ended up with. Too bad despite so much talent and game.
Both are the greatest underachievers ever.. i think.

orfgab
Nov 24th, 2009, 10:04 AM
Are people of WTF still not tired to compare those 2?
Take it for what it is: every stat is in Gabriela Sabatini's favor, except one: the number of Slams finals. But the huge difference in Slams SF largely compensates for that. Everything has been said 100 times on other threads.
Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, but coming back with this comparision again and again is nonsense IMO since you will always find the same people, and nobody is ready to change their mind.
If you still want to compare those 2, I would suggest to compare other things than their records now. For example: Who was the most popular player in each group of age? Who had the most beautiful racquet? Or the nicest dog. Or the most beautiful watch.

spencercarlos
Nov 24th, 2009, 12:09 PM
Are people of WTF still not tired to compare those 2?
Take it for what it is: every stat is in Gabriela Sabatini's favor, except one: the number of Slams finals. But the huge difference in Slams SF largely compensates for that. Everything has been said 100 times on other threads.
Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, but coming back with this comparision again and again is nonsense IMO since you will always find the same people, and nobody is ready to change their mind.
If you still want to compare those 2, I would suggest to compare other things than their records now. For example: Who was the most popular player in each group of age? Who had the most beautiful racquet? Or the nicest dog. Or the most beautiful watch.
I concur, especially since after you offer stats to compare, these two easily comparable players, almost the same age and that played almost against the same oponnents (just except the Williamses), and in the end you keep hearing things like "i am not going to go over the numbers" "you are not changing my mind no matter what".

Mike25 and Steffica seem to forget that Novotna was even older than Gaby.

Steffica Greles
Nov 24th, 2009, 12:37 PM
Mike25 and Steffica seem to forget that Novotna was even older than Gaby.

I don't think age really comes into it. Some peak early, some peak late. All's well that ends well.

I think Jana's game took much longer to really come to fruition. I would question the coaching she received in her teenage years and childhood. I can imagine she had a lot of hard work to catch up.

I agree that Gabi had the better career. Both at once had illustrious careers and underachieved, yet Gabriela was more of a regular in the semi-finals of slams and had more wins over Graf and Seles than Novotna did over any equivalent during her peak years. Novotna of course reached one more grandslam final. Athletically, they were equals.

Incidentally, imagine if they'd ever played doubles together? :drool:

Anyway, when Jana was on, she was just impassable at the net. So agile, so fleet of foot, so robust, so fast. Gabi was also class at the net, but just not as natural in approaching. To Jana, net rushing was instinctive; for Gabi, regular forays to the net were part of a gameplan (which sometimes she forgot midway through a match). When Gabi sat back, she often lost against quality opposition, and sadly it was innate in her game when she wasn't thinking. That, and a woeful serve which could be nailed a la Seles, or approached off by net rushers.

That is why I think both at their respective bests would have seen Jana win most often.

!Gio!
Nov 24th, 2009, 09:32 PM
I concur, especially since after you offer stats to compare, these two easily comparable players, almost the same age and that played almost against the same oponnents (just except the Williamses), and in the end you keep hearing things like "i am not going to go over the numbers" "you are not changing my mind no matter what".

Mike25 and Steffica seem to forget that Novotna was even older than Gaby.

There is no changing some people's mind:), no matter how clear your argument is but at the end of the day the stats speak for themselves:angel:. I do agree that both underachieved and they were two of the most talented of their generation.

patricio
Nov 24th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Duh, they have no comparison... I have lots of respect for Jana though

spencercarlos
Nov 25th, 2009, 05:11 AM
I don't think age really comes into it.
How so? Novotna being a year or two older than Sabatini means that they are both from the same era and played just about the same players throught their carreers.

I think Jana's game took much longer to really come to fruition. I would question the coaching she received in her teenage years and childhood. I can imagine she had a lot of hard work to catch up.
I think you are wrong a little bit, sure Novotna took longer to mature, but by the end of 1990 Novotna was playing great tennis, she reached her first grand slam final at the Australian Open 1991, she beat Graf in the QF, destroyed Arantxa in the semis and was a set and a break against Monica in the final and throught the first half of the year she found consistent results pretty much until the end of the year, losing left and right to players like Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini. She beat Graf 1 more time in 1991 at the YEC but lost to Navratilova winning just 3 games.

This is where is think that the top was too strong for Jana to get upper than she did in the early 90ties.There in the back of that top you had players of the caliber of Arantxa, young Capriati, Martinez, Mary Joe, all of them consisten performers in the early 90ties.


Anyway, when Jana was on, she was just impassable at the net. So agile, so fleet of foot, so robust, so fast.
You are going overboard with your statement.

You want to tell us that Novotnaīs best was better than Sabatiniīs best but she was overall during her carreer winless against before stabbing Seles, her head to head against Graf is considerably poor in comparisson to Sabatiniīs, and her 1-6 record against Navratilova does not speak impassable greatness either.

Lets move forward to early 1997-early 1999 (Novotnaīs peak)
We see Jana is 1-6 against Hingis, howīs that a healthy record, when you are at the peak of your powers?
She is also 0-3 vs Davenport during this so much peak period of hers and 0-6 vs Davenport overall, with only 1 set win? Where is the impassable greatness that you are talking about?
She is 1-1 against post stabbing Seles and 0-3 against Graf (incluiding a 6-4 6-1 at New Haven 98 and 6-2 6-0 at Indian Wells 99), both of them past their peak.
I can hardly see how Jana at her best was dominating/impassable for these players.

Your case does not look good at all to be honest.

Gabi was also class at the net, but just not as natural in approaching. for Gabi, regular forays to the net were part of a gameplan (which sometimes she forgot midway through a match).
Again are we talking about a peak Sabatini or an inconsistent Sabatini? It seems that you imagine her peak as someone who did not know what to do around the court, and believe me that was not peak Gaby at all. Her play from mid1990-early1992 Gaby was even considered the most complete player on womens tennis, a player that could play her best from the back of the court and at the net as well.

When Gabi sat back, she often lost against quality opposition, and sadly it was innate in her game when she wasn't thinking. That, and a woeful serve which could be nailed a la Seles, or approached off by net rushers.

Finally a common point, but this was more the rule from mid 1992 til pretty much the end of her carreer, where Sabatini indeed looked flat most of the times, not knowing her ways around the court, to the point of not knowing if she was a counter pouncher? (Arantxa type), a player that just moved the ball around the court (a la Martinez type) or an agressive all court player (like she was at her peak).

irma
Nov 25th, 2009, 05:36 AM
Jana was a huge underachiever!!! And I say that as an admirer!

She did not do anything on grass until she was 24?!?! How on earth did that happen, with her game? She did not win more than one Wimbledon title - again, astonishing, given that from 1993 onwards there was no woman in the game as suited to grass (she should have beaten Martina in 1994). In 1994,95,96,97 she could have won two of those titles with a bit more bottle.

Jana didn't even enter the top 10 until she was 22, which was quite advanced in age for those days.

She lost the 1998 US Open semi-final against Hingis from 4-1 up in the final set. That win would have been the number one ranking and possibly another slam.

It's unbelievable how in 1995/1996 she lost twice in a row to such an inferior player
And the most strange thing is, the same happened at the french open where that inferior player player another superior opponent and who ended up winning again.

4 matches and the inferior player wins 4 times. a shame :tape:

samsam4087
Nov 25th, 2009, 01:09 PM
How so? Novotna being a year or two older than Sabatini means that they are both from the same era and played just about the same players throught their carreers.


I think you are wrong a little bit, sure Novotna took longer to mature, but by the end of 1990 Novotna was playing great tennis, she reached her first grand slam final at the Australian Open 1991, she beat Graf in the QF, destroyed Arantxa in the semis and was a set and a break against Monica in the final and throught the first half of the year she found consistent results pretty much until the end of the year, losing left and right to players like Graf, Navratilova, Sabatini. She beat Graf 1 more time in 1991 at the YEC but lost to Navratilova winning just 3 games.

This is where is think that the top was too strong for Jana to get upper than she did in the early 90ties.There in the back of that top you had players of the caliber of Arantxa, young Capriati, Martinez, Mary Joe, all of them consisten performers in the early 90ties.


You are going overboard with your statement.

You want to tell us that Novotnaīs best was better than Sabatiniīs best but she was overall during her carreer winless against before stabbing Seles, her head to head against Graf is considerably poor in comparisson to Sabatiniīs, and her 1-6 record against Navratilova does not speak impassable greatness either.

Lets move forward to early 1997-early 1999 (Novotnaīs peak)
We see Jana is 1-6 against Hingis, howīs that a healthy record, when you are at the peak of your powers?
She is also 0-3 vs Davenport during this so much peak period of hers and 0-6 vs Davenport overall, with only 1 set win? Where is the impassable greatness that you are talking about?
She is 1-1 against post stabbing Seles and 0-3 against Graf (incluiding a 6-4 6-1 at New Haven 98 and 6-2 6-0 at Indian Wells 99), both of them past their peak.
I can hardly see how Jana at her best was dominating/impassable for these players.

Your case does not look good at all to be honest.


Again are we talking about a peak Sabatini or an inconsistent Sabatini? It seems that you imagine her peak as someone who did not know what to do around the court, and believe me that was not peak Gaby at all. Her play from mid1990-early1992 Gaby was even considered the most complete player on womens tennis, a player that could play her best from the back of the court and at the net as well.


Finally a common point, but this was more the rule from mid 1992 til pretty much the end of her carreer, where Sabatini indeed looked flat most of the times, not knowing her ways around the court, to the point of not knowing if she was a counter pouncher? (Arantxa type), a player that just moved the ball around the court (a la Martinez type) or an agressive all court player (like she was at her peak).

yes, well said.

:worship::worship::worship:

Morrissey
Nov 26th, 2009, 01:59 PM
I think they are even both Sabatini and Novotna were chokers. However, I respect Novotna MORE because she admitted to getting nervous. The media always criticized Jana yet let Sabatini off the hook for all of her choking. Sabatini was a major choker too. The 1991 Wimbledon final she should of won that one against Graf. I feel Novotna redeemed herself when she won Wimbledon in 1998.

zvonarevarulz
Nov 26th, 2009, 04:14 PM
Gabby.

Lulu.
Nov 28th, 2009, 03:36 AM
Sabatini.

Mike25
Nov 28th, 2009, 03:35 PM
Again you fail to elaborate.

If Sabatini was worse on indoors than Jana, then explain why Sabatini had a much better resume, but a much much better than Jana had. Say again the YEC played on a fast indoor carpet at Madison Square Garden arguably the biggest indoor event for the women.

At this kind of event Sabatini was able to beat players like Graf, Navratilova, Martinez, Sukova, Capriati, Davenport, and even Novotna.

But i will also disagree with you, i think that Jana and Sabatini should have way more singlesīs slams than they ended up with. Too bad despite so much talent and game.
Both are the greatest underachievers ever.. i think.

I never said Sabatini was worse than Jana on indoor surfaces. However, I do feel Sabatini was only "slightly" better than Jana indoors. You make it sound like Sabatini was some kind of dominant force indoors, which wasn't the case. Sabatini won 2 YEC's to Jana's 1. Is that a big difference to you?. To me, it's not. So I'm afraid your arguement falls short.

I do agree with you on one key point: Jana and Sabatini definately should have captured more Slam titles. They both had numerous chances to get it done, but failed when it counted most. That said, I still feel Sabatini was a greater underachiever then Jana. In addition, Jana's career numbers outshine Sabatini's, which simply can't be denied.

orfgab
Nov 28th, 2009, 04:13 PM
I never said Sabatini was worse than Jana on indoor surfaces. However, I do feel Sabatini was only "slightly" better than Jana indoors. You make it sound like Sabatini was some kind of dominant force indoors, which wasn't the case. Sabatini won 2 YEC's to Jana's 1. Is that a big difference to you?. To me, it's not. So I'm afraid your arguement falls short.

I do agree with you on one key point: Jana and Sabatini definately should have captured more Slam titles. They both had numerous chances to get it done, but failed when it counted most. That said, I still feel Sabatini was a greater underachiever then Jana. In addition, Jana's career numbers outshine Sabatini's, which simply can't be denied.

Who is Jana? Both have a first name and a family name. This is a general thread, not the thread of your favourite one. Use the family name or the first name for both of them. It would be more respectful for one of these players. Thanks.

RenaSlam.
Nov 28th, 2009, 04:19 PM
Gabby.

Mike25
Nov 28th, 2009, 06:10 PM
I think they are even both Sabatini and Novotna were chokers. However, I respect Novotna MORE because she admitted to getting nervous. The media always criticized Jana yet let Sabatini off the hook for all of her choking. Sabatini was a major choker too. The 1991 Wimbledon final she should of won that one against Graf. I feel Novotna redeemed herself when she won Wimbledon in 1998.


Morrissey makes a fine point. Yes, Sabatini and Jana were definately even in the choking department. However, not only was Sabatini a great choker, but was even greater at making excuses. I can't recall one single instance where Jana made excuses for blowing a match?. In addition, as Morrissey points out, at least Jana captured a Slam late in her career, even after all the choking. As for Sabatini, her Slam came early on, and the choking continued for the rest of her career.

So, to a certain extent, Jana did redeem herself, Sabatini did not. As far as I'm concerned, that's one more reason why I respect Jana's accomplishments more then Sabatini's. Why?. Because Jana still plugged away to get that elusive Slam, while Sabatini simply gave up. The facts are the facts, even though some on this board don't want to hear the truth.

Mike25
Nov 28th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Whatever you say, but Gabi had problems with aggression throughout her career: when she lost matches, it was because she sat back. Jana Novotna didn't really even have that option in her game. She was naturally aggressive. When she was at the net, she was a wall.

Gabi had more of an all-round game, but I think at her best Jana would have been all over Gabi on all surfaces except clay by virtue of her aggression.

Jana did not peak until Sabatini was waning so we'll never see a true stack-up. But to those who stupidly suggest Jana reached her peak only when Seles was out of the game and Sabatini was declining, I must remind them that Jana DID peak in the latter half of 1996 through to early 1999, when women's tennis was going through a revolution and she had a winning record over Venus Williams, and a healthy record over Hingis too.

You make some decent points. When Sabatini was playing her best in the early 1990's, it was due to her newfound aggression. When she sat back, and played it cautious, she usually lost. The best example I can come up with is the 1991 Wimbledon Final against Steffi Graf. In the 1st set, Sabatini played it safe, and lost the set. However, Sabatini got herself back in that match by playing aggressive, and rushing the net. The tactic worked, as Sabatini took Steffi out of her comfort zone, and evened the match at 1 set apiece. But once again, Sabatini played it safe late in the decisive 3rd set, spinning in weak second serves that Steffi pounced all over. I contend, had Sabatini continued her aggressive play in the 3rd set at '91 Wimbledon, she would have taken the title. Instead, Sabatini played to Steffi's strength, by playing cautious. In the end, Sabatini deserved to lose the match.

Sabatini was slightly better than Jana Novotna from the baseline. However, Jana was much better than Sabatini at net. In addition, Jana was naturally agressive, Sabatini was not. Although Sabatini did work on her net game, and showed gradual improvement, she was ultimately a baseliner.

As Steffica Greles points out, Jana didn't peak until Sabatini was going downhill. So in the end, we'll never know for sure how these two at their respective peaks would have fared in their H2H encounters. But those who are quick to dismiss Jana's achievements as nothing more than the result of Sabatini's decline, or Monica being gone, don't know what the hell their talking about.

Bahia
Nov 28th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Why does Novotna best have to do with Seles. Novotna proved she could readily beat Seles anyways?

orfgab
Nov 29th, 2009, 01:15 PM
Morrissey makes a fine point. Yes, Sabatini and Jana were definately even in the choking department. However, not only was Sabatini a great choker, but was even greater at making excuses. I can't recall one single instance where Jana made excuses for blowing a match?. In addition, as Morrissey points out, at least Jana captured a Slam late in her career, even after all the choking. As for Sabatini, her Slam came early on, and the choking continued for the rest of her career.

So, to a certain extent, Jana did redeem herself, Sabatini did not. As far as I'm concerned, that's one more reason why I respect Jana's accomplishments more then Sabatini's. Why?. Because Jana still plugged away to get that elusive Slam, while Sabatini simply gave up. The facts are the facts, even though some on this board don't want to hear the truth.

If Sabatini was the queen of excuses, tell me who is not.
All your argumentation is that Novotna won her Grand Slam and her best ranking in the end of her career. If you have more respect for late bloomers, it's your choice, but it's not an objective criteria. Or Tauziat had a better career than Austin or Hingis. :rolleyes:
Sabatini was at the top much longer than Novotna, her longevity in the top 10 or 5 is more important. She became a top player earlier and she faded earlier, which is natural. It's the effect of time. Her batteries were not the same anymore. It's completely normal.
And saying that Novotna redeemed herself by winning Wimbledon is very simplistic if you are talking about "choking". Most players would like to prove that they are not chokers by winning a Slam against a player like Tauziat. Novotna beat the player who was in front of her, and that's the only thing that counts. But you are talking about how she could overtake her choking trend. And in that sense, sorry but a Tauziat who can't even believe that she reached the final of Wimbledon is a wonderful opponent. Nothing to do with a Steffi Graf in my opinion.
Again, read the stats and you will see a difference between those 2. Try to live with this.:wavey:

P.S. I would like to know the origin of the obsession that Novotna's fans seem to have with Sabatini. It's getting more and more crazy. Sabatini seems to be a constant thought. Yeah, she was a better player. A better singles player. Novotna was a better doubles player.

spencercarlos
Nov 29th, 2009, 03:42 PM
You make some decent points. When Sabatini was playing her best in the early 1990's, it was due to her newfound aggression. When she sat back, and played it cautious, she usually lost. The best example I can come up with is the 1991 Wimbledon Final against Steffi Graf. In the 1st set, Sabatini played it safe, and lost the set. However, Sabatini got herself back in that match by playing aggressive, and rushing the net. The tactic worked, as Sabatini took Steffi out of her comfort zone, and evened the match at 1 set apiece. But once again, Sabatini played it safe late in the decisive 3rd set, spinning in weak second serves that Steffi pounced all over. I contend, had Sabatini continued her aggressive play in the 3rd set at '91 Wimbledon, she would have taken the title. Instead, Sabatini played to Steffi's strength, by playing cautious. In the end, Sabatini deserved to lose the match.

Sabatini was slightly better than Jana Novotna from the baseline. However, Jana was much better than Sabatini at net. In addition, Jana was naturally agressive, Sabatini was not. Although Sabatini did work on her net game, and showed gradual improvement, she was ultimately a baseliner.

As Steffica Greles points out, Jana didn't peak until Sabatini was going downhill. So in the end, we'll never know for sure how these two at their respective peaks would have fared in their H2H encounters. But those who are quick to dismiss Jana's achievements as nothing more than the result of Sabatini's decline, or Monica being gone, don't know what the hell their talking about.
BS i advise you to talk nothing about someone if you donīt really know what happened. Graf upped her level tremendously, she went out all or nothing, and even Sabatini got passed at the net a many times during the stretch of the last 3 games.

At least Sabatini made Graf look better in winning it, than Jana having aboslutely no pulse in choking and not even putting balls in play in that Wimbledon final and missing by feet or in the bottom of the net.

Sabatini was slightly better than Jana Novotna from the baseline.
The same BS as the other, Sabatini was way way better than Novotna form the back of the court, hence her great resume on clay and hardcourts. You are so delusional :rolleyes:

spencercarlos
Nov 29th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Morrissey makes a fine point. Yes, Sabatini and Jana were definately even in the choking department. However, not only was Sabatini a great choker, but was even greater at making excuses. I can't recall one single instance where Jana made excuses for blowing a match?. In addition, as Morrissey points out, at least Jana captured a Slam late in her career, even after all the choking. As for Sabatini, her Slam came early on, and the choking continued for the rest of her career.

So, to a certain extent, Jana did redeem herself, Sabatini did not. As far as I'm concerned, that's one more reason why I respect Jana's accomplishments more then Sabatini's. Why?. Because Jana still plugged away to get that elusive Slam, while Sabatini simply gave up. The facts are the facts, even though some on this board don't want to hear the truth.
Couple of things you are wrong again.

1)Sabatini chokes were fewer than Jana, and by a lot.
Against Sabatini alone Jana choked 3 times, as Sabatini beat her 3 times from match points down (Zurich 90, Yec 90 and the pinnacle was Roland Garros 1991 7-5 5-2 (2 breaks up for Jana) and Sabatini ended up winning 5-7 7-6 6-0 :lol:

On her peak year 1998 Jana choked against Hingis at the Usopen 1998 in similar fashion as Wimbledon 93, two breaks up 4-1 and Jana started to miss by miles and not even putting balls in play. Shortly after that came Munich 98 vs Schnyder, up 6-2 and 5-2 in the second set she found a way to lose to Schnyder 2-6 7-5 7-5, not before also blowing a 5-3 lead in the third set. She also choked a 5-3 lead vs Patty at Hannover 98. Boy Jana knew how to do that consisntently even when she should not be (at her peak).

2)Novotna actually never admitted choking, that was even her worst part. When she lost that Wimbledon final to Graf she said something along the lines like "I continued to play the way i was but the strategy did not work in the end" :rolleyes: Not only that she stopped doing what she was doing to put Graf 4-1 and two breaks up, but she stopped hitting the ball into the court :retard:.

3)Sabatini for her part has admited being nervious, especially against Mary Joe every time they played after that 93 Roland Garros. Sabatini was a class act, on and off the court, as a player and as a person. Sabatini actually admited being needed support to be mentally strong that she had a sport psicologist, during the early 90ties (Loer) and she also got help towards the end to figure out with she was so unmotivated on court, shortly before leaving the game in 96.

I donīt recall Jana being a bad sport either. But she surely got involved into a fight with Arantxa in 96, and words and tears crossed from one end to the other.
Sabatini was rarely onto any controversies from interviews, excuses or failrue of giving her oponnent the credit that they deserved.

spencercarlos
Nov 29th, 2009, 04:01 PM
If Sabatini was the queen of excuses, tell me who is not.
All your argumentation is that Novotna won her Grand Slam and her best ranking in the end of her career. If you have more respect for late bloomers, it's your choice, but it's not an objective criteria. Or Tauziat had a better career than Austin or Hingis. :rolleyes:
Sabatini was at the top much longer than Novotna, her longevity in the top 10 or 5 is more important. She became a top player earlier and she faded earlier, which is natural. It's the effect of time. Her batteries were not the same anymore. It's completely normal.
And saying that Novotna redeemed herself by winning Wimbledon is very simplistic if you are talking about "choking". Most players would like to prove that they are not chokers by winning a Slam against a player like Tauziat. Novotna beat the player who was in front of her, and that's the only thing who counts. But you are talking about how she could overtake her choking trend. And in that sense, sorry but a Tauziat who can't even believe that she reached the final of Wimbledon is a wonderful opponent. Nothing to do with a Steffi Graf in my opinion.
Again, read the stats and you will see a difference between those 2. Try to live with this.:wavey:

P.S. I would like to know the origin of the obsession that Novotna's fans seem to have with Sabatini. It's getting more and more crazy. Sabatini seems to be a constant thought. Yeah, she was a better player. A better singles player. Novotna was a better doubles player.
If Novotna reedem herself froma choke at a slam then Gaby surely got hers. After all Sabatini lost to Graf at the 87 ROland Garros Semifinal, despite being up 5-3 in the third set and just 3 points from winning. She reedem herself so great in 1990 and against that great oponnent.
Of course Jana had the greatful help of having to face a player like Tauziat in that final. So i think its very clear who did reedem herself in a much better fashion.

Lets mention also that Janaīs last win over Graf came in 1991 :eek: ... Because in Philly 96 Jana beat Graf after Steffi retired injured... hardly a proper win, Mikey surely will find a way to make it a big win. :rolleyes:

!Gio!
Nov 29th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Once again the statistics speak for themselves.

Gabby Leads the head to head 10-3, with their last 4 out of 5 being straight set wins.

Gabby's career Win/Loss record is 632/189 compared to Jana who is 571/225.
Overall Gabby has 27 titles to Jana's 24 titles. Gabby has 2 YEC titles, reached the finals 4 times, and the semis 7 times.
Jana has won 1 YEC, reached only 1 final and reached the Semis 3 times.
Gabby has reached the grand slam QF 28 times, the semifinals 18 times, and the finals 3 times.
Jana has reached the QF 22 times, SF 8 times, and the finals 4 times.(Jana has one more grand slam final but Gabby has 10 more semifinals and Jana has played 8 more grand-slams than Gabby.)
Gabby has won 6 Tier I's to Jana's 2. They have the same number of Tier II's, and Jana leads in the Mickey Mouse tournaments obviously.

Than there is their head to heads vs the top players, for example Steffi Graf.
Gabby has beaten Steffi 11 times, more than any other player and well Jana has beaten her 4 times out of 33 tries.
In their Grand-slam win, Gabby beat Steffi in the final, meanwhile Jana beat Nathalie, which is more impressive?:tape:

Gabby reached her biggest success on the tour while facing a different Graf, Vicario, and Seles among others like the still going strong Navratilova, at that time where was Jana??? (she is two years older than Gabby). Jana's biggest success came in 96, 97, 98 , that was a post stabbing Monica Seles, injured Steffi Graf(Surgery in 97), and a weaker Arantxa (97 and beyond).

I think the statistics are quite clear and more than speak for themselves.
:wavey:
I do think Jana had an amazing career but Gabby was better.

Matt01
Nov 29th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Once again the statistics speak for themselves.


Then why don't you let them speak for themselves ;)



Gabby Leads the head to head 10-3, with their last 4 out of 5 being straight set wins.


The H2H between these players means very little here since Jana peaked at a time when Gaby had already retired :wavey:



In their Grand-slam win, Gabby beat Steffi in the final, meanwhile Jana beat Nathalie, which is more impressive?:tape:


Who did Jana beat in the semifinals again on road to her Slam win? :rolleyes:



I do think Jana had an amazing career but Gabby was better.


Actually it's the other way round. Gaby had an amazing career and was a great player, but Jana was slightly better ;) One more Slam final along with her highest ranking position as #2 give her the slight edge.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 12:04 AM
Actually it's the other way round. Gaby had an amazing career and was a great player, but Jana was slightly better ;) One more Slam final along with her highest ranking position as #2 give her the slight edge.
Just tell me this Matt.. honestly

1 Slam Final is better than 1 YEC title and 2 RU finishes at the YEC? You can even add a Miami title and 2 RU there as well. Who are you fooling? :rolleyes:

Also about the rankings, do you know that Sabatini had more ranking points than Graf and Seles at some point in August 1991? That would have made her number one for 3 weeks if she had played under the ranking system that Novotna had in 97-98 when she briefly got to number two.. Going by your logic, then Jana`s 2 ranking vs Gaby 3rd ranking can`t be compared because they were calculated under different rules.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 12:11 AM
The H2H between these players means very little here since Jana peaked at a time when Gaby had already retired :wavey:

You are trying to be an a.s on this thread :lol: Sadly your logic is pretty much f.ckd up.

So for Novotna only the matches she played "while at her peak" are the ones that count? :lol:
Even when we know that Novotna is older than Sabatini and they both faced pretty much the same competition on tour (apart from briefly playing the WS)?

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Just tell me this Matt.. honestly

1 Slam Final is better than 1 YEC title and 2 RU finishes at the YEC? You can even add a Miami title and 2 RU there as well. Who are you fooling? :rolleyes:

Also about the rankings, do you know that Sabatini had more ranking points than Graf and Seles at some point in August 1991? That would have made her number one for 3 weeks if she had played under the ranking system that Novotna had in 97-98 when she briefly got to number two.. Going by your logic, then Jana`s 2 ranking vs Gaby 3rd ranking can`t be compared because they were calculated under different rules.

1. One Slam final is much more important than a win at the YEC or at Miami. When we talk YECs than Gaby has 2 wins to Jana's 1 so that doesn't give a Gaby a big enough advantage IMO. Of course you may think otherwise.

Gaby's YEC wins are also pretty much THE things which give her the edge over Martinez IMO so you see that I don't think the YEC is orrelevant just because your fave was successful in them :p

2. We can only use the ranking system that was in use at that time. The players know under which ranking system they are currently playing so maybe the results the results under another ranking system would have been different than you calculated since the players would have adjusted their schedule.


You are trying to be an a.s on this thread :lol: Sadly your logic is pretty much f.ckd up.

So for Novotna only the matches she played "while at her peak" are the ones that count? :lol:
Even when we know that Novotna is older than Sabatini and they both faced pretty much the same competition on tour (apart from briefly playing the WS)?


Novotna peaked later than Sabatini, so? H2H is in general a bad way to compare the greatnes of two players. Had Gaby and Jana played each other more often in 1996/97/98 than in 1990/91/92 then maybe Jana would lead the H"H now...we don't know.

!Gio!
Nov 30th, 2009, 11:22 AM
1. One Slam final is much more important than a win at the YEC or at Miami. When we talk YECs than Gaby has 2 wins to Jana's 1 so that doesn't give a Gaby a big enough advantage IMO. Of course you may think otherwise.

Gaby's YEC wins are also pretty much THE things which give her the edge over Martinez IMO so you see that I don't think the YEC is orrelevant just because your fave was successful in them :p

2. We can only use the ranking system that was in use at that time. The players know under which ranking system they are currently playing so maybe the results the results under another ranking system would have been different than you calculated since the players would have adjusted their schedule.


Novotna peaked later than Sabatini, so? H2H is in general a bad way to compare the greatnes of two players. Had Gaby and Jana played each other more often in 1996/97/98 than in 1990/91/92 then maybe Jana would lead the H"H now...we don't know.

I call BS:lol: but if you really think Novotna had the better career:p, go for it. You won't change all the statistics no matter how much you may want to.:devil: There is no point in saying anything more than I have or that spencercarlos has, people believe what they want to believe and there is no point in arguing. :)

orfgab
Nov 30th, 2009, 12:35 PM
I call BS:lol: but if you really think Novotna had the better career:p, go for it. You won't change all the statistics no matter how much you may want to.:devil: There is no point in saying anything more than I have or that spencercarlos has, people believe what they want to believe and there is no point in arguing. :)

Stats don't mean anything, Gorgo. Only what you wanna see counts. I start: "Sabatini had a better career than Sanchez". :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Matt is a Sabatini's hater and will always find something. Don't pay too much attention to him.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 01:15 PM
1. One Slam final is much more important than a win at the YEC or at Miami. When we talk YECs than Gaby has 2 wins to Jana's 1 so that doesn't give a Gaby a big enough advantage IMO. Of course you may think otherwise.

Gaby's YEC wins are also pretty much THE things which give her the edge over Martinez IMO so you see that I don't think the YEC is orrelevant just because your fave was successful in them :p

2. We can only use the ranking system that was in use at that time. The players know under which ranking system they are currently playing so maybe the results the results under another ranking system would have been different than you calculated since the players would have adjusted their schedule.





Novotna peaked later than Sabatini, so? H2H is in general a bad way to compare the greatnes of two players. Had Gaby and Jana played each other more often in 1996/97/98 than in 1990/91/92 then maybe Jana would lead the H"H now...we don't know.
Again you go and overlook my question and answer it your way..

I said is 1 more GS final ABOVE 1 YEC title + 2 YEC RU + 1 Miami win + 2 Miami RU ????? Again honestly answer that... :lol:


2. We can only use the ranking system that was in use at that time. The players know under which ranking system they are currently playing so maybe the results the results under another ranking system would have been different than you calculated since the players would have adjusted their schedule.

I donīt see why we can because if we can overlook the 10-3 HEAD TO HEAD lifetime between Sabatini and Novotna, because Novotna was not at her peak pre 1994, then we canīt compare the rankings as Novotna got her highest ranking under a different system than Sabatini. Which again i tell you that Sabatini would have been number one in 1991 if any post 1996 ranks would have been used. Which again you choose to overlook. :rolleyes:


So in this your world of hypocricy. Then Venus Williams >>>> Justine Henin because she has a couple of more grand slam finals?? 6>4 and she also trails in Venus the # of titles category to Venus.

No matter if Justine has 1 more YEC win, and more weeks at number one.. Right? ok right :lol:

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Again you go and overlook my question and answer it your way..

I said is 1 more GS final ABOVE 1 YEC title + 2 YEC RU + 1 Miami win + 2 Miami RU ????? Again honestly answer that... :lol:



There's no need to answer that question for me. If YOU think that things like "runner-ups" at Miami are relevant when comparing two players and determining who is greater then that's fine. For ME these things are c completely irrelevant when these two players have won Slams, YECs and reached several other Slam finals.


So in this your world of hypocricy. Then Venus Williams >>>> Justine Henin because she has a couple of more grand slam finals?? 6>4 and she also trails in Venus the # of titles category to Venus.

No matter if Justine has 1 more YEC win, and more weeks at number one.. Right? ok right :lol:


Justine isn't greater than Venus because of her 1 more YEC win. But that and her advantage as weeks as #1, her domination periods, consistancy and, winning 3 out of 4 Slams etc. make more than up for those 2 Slam finals. When comparing Jana and Gaby who have accomplished almost the same though, the number of Slam finals becomes much more important. That is my subjective opinion. If you think otherwise and think that winning Mami is more important than reaching a Wimbledon final, ok :lol:

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 09:05 PM
I call BS:lol: but if you really think Novotna had the better career:p, go for it. You won't change all the statistics no matter how much you may want to.:devil: There is no point in saying anything more than I have or that spencercarlos has, people believe what they want to believe and there is no point in arguing. :)


Yeah, I agree. There's no point in argueing with you since apparently you aren't able to participate in a real discussion with real arguments :p And maybe you missed but I have named which statistics for me are importantso here so I didn't need to change anything. I've argued with the stats.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:02 PM
There's no need to answer that question for me. If YOU think that things like "runner-ups" at Miami are relevant when comparing two players and determining who is greater then that's fine. For ME these things are c completely irrelevant when these two players have won Slams, YECs and reached several other Slam finals.
Your post insults our intelligence, when I SAID that Miami performances alone could be compared with a grand slam performance. :rolleyes:
ONCE AGAIN I compared all those results altogether, once again you keep dismissing the whole argument and actually you are stating that 1 GS RU is better than 1 YEC Title, 2 YEC RU finishes, 1 Miami title and 2 RU finishes yes ALL OF THAT TOGETHER there as well.. Ok good for you.


Justine isn't greater than Venus because of her 1 more YEC win. But that and her advantage as weeks as #1, her domination periods, consistancy and, winning 3 out of 4 Slams etc. make more than up for those 2 Slam finals. When comparing Jana and Gaby who have accomplished almost the same though, the number of Slam finals becomes much more important. That is my subjective opinion. If you think otherwise and think that winning Mami is more important than reaching a Wimbledon final, ok :lol:
Ok Justine is better than Venus, despite Venus having 2 more GS RU finishes, and more titles, and yet you count things like ranking consistency, domination periods, and other slam stats.

But Sabatini canīt better than Jana because Jana reached ONLY 1 more slam final, while Sabatini has overall more titles, 1 more YEC Titile, 2 YEC RU (Jana 0), ranking wise Sabatini was top 3, top 5 and top ten player longer than Jana was, and Slams related stats Sabatini has a whooping 9 (18 in total) more SF rounds at slams, compared to Janaīs 9 overall. At her peak Sabatini was dominating Graf, and beating players like Seles, Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario and the rest, at her peak Sabatini won a slam (Usopen 90), reached YEC Final (1990), reached another slam final (Wimbledon 1991), RG SF and QF at Australian Open..., won 6 titles along the way...., yes all of that in a year.... try to bring up Jana into this contest, i am sure she falls short. And yes i have left out their personal head to head talk in here. :tape:

Its ok i get your stats serve for Justine but not for the others :lol:

:wavey:

Pureracket
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:07 PM
wimbledon

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:09 PM
wimbledon
Sure :devil:

Pureracket
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Sure :devil:The players and sports writers measure careers by Wimbledon. Anybody who disagrees with that is delusional.

Then again, I liked Gabby in her day. I knew that she was going to underachieve and have a mediocre career when I first laid eyes on her, but she certainly added interest to the game.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:15 PM
The players and sports writers measure careers by Wimbledon. Anybody who disagrees with that is delusional.

Then again, I liked Gabby in her day. I knew that she was going to underachieve and have a mediocre career when I first laid eyes on her, but she certainly added interest to the game.
Underachieving is not mediocre. :rolleyes:

Then 99% of the tennis players would be "MEDIOCRE" because they are not multiple slam champions. :lol:

And Sorry Wimbledon winner does not decide who the player of the year is. Stop your delusion.

Veeeeeeelose :wavey:

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:15 PM
At her peak Sabatini was dominating Graf,


Don't be ridiculous. Sabatini beat Graf a few times when Graf was slumping, but when it really counted, she choked:tape:. Overall her record against Graf is poor and not that much better than Jana's record against Graf.

Again, apparently you think that Miami titles or RUs are important when comparing Jana and Gaby. I don't think so but I can accept your opinion since it is so close between the two. The question now is if you will accept my opinion, too, or if you will call it BS or call me hater like your fellow oathetic Gaby fans did in this thread :p

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:21 PM
Don't be ridiculous. Sabatini beat Graf a few times when Graf was slumping, but when it really counted, she choked:tape:. Overall her record against Graf is poor and not that much better than Jana's record against Graf.

Ok Matt i will stop here because you really make NO SENSE, and you are just trolling around.

Let me tell you what counts

1990-1991
Sabatini def Graf Usopen Final 6-2 7-6
Sabatini def Graf YEC Semifinal 6-4 6-4
Sabatini def Graf Tokio PP QF 4-6 6-4 7-6
Sabatini def Graf VS Florida Final (Tier I) 6-4 7-6
Sabatini def Graf Miami Semifinal (Tier I) 0-6 7-6 6-1
Sabatini def Graf Amelia Island (Tier II) Final 7-5 7-6

Sabatini def Navratilova Tokio PP Final (Tier I) 2-6 6-2 6-4
Sabatini def Seles Rome Final (Tier I) 6-3 6-2

That is peak, homework try that for Janaīs peak :kiss:
:wavey:

Pureracket
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:22 PM
Underachieving is not mediocre. :rolleyes:

Then 99% of the tennis players would be "MEDIOCRE" because they are not multiple slam champions. :lol:

And Sorry Wimbledon winner does not decide who the player of the year is. Stop your delusion.

Veeeeeeelose :wavey:As far as Gabby is concerned, she was definitely an underachiever, and her results were mediocre as far as Slam holders go. She's a one Slam wonder who had a good run in New York one fortnight. She was as surprised as the rest of us were. It just dawned on me that you always insult Venus and Serena, but your fav is Gabby Sabatini. OMG! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Say it slowly, and you might get the comedy of it all, "I-hate-Venus-and-Serena,-but-my-favourite-player-is-Gabby-Sabatini." :haha: Certainly, you get why people are laughing @ you.

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:22 PM
The players and sports writers measure careers by Wimbledon. Anybody who disagrees with that is delusional.

Then again, I liked Gabby in her day. I knew that she was going to underachieve and have a mediocre career when I first laid eyes on her, but she certainly added interest to the game.


That made me :lol:

And I wouldn't call a career like the one Sabatini had "mediocre".

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:28 PM
As far as Gabby is concerned, she was definitely an underachiever, and her results were mediocre as far as Slam holders go. She's a one Slam wonder who had a good run in New York one fortnight.
Yes you are right :devil:

Ops no you are not..

New York
1987 YEC RU :)
1988 Usopen RU, YEC WINNER :worship:
1989 Usopen SF, YEC SF :D
1990 Usopen Winner, YEC RU :hearts:
1991 YEC SF :)
1992 YEC SF :)
1994 Usopen SF, YEC WINNER :bounce: :)
1995 Usopen SF :)

Yes very cheap runs for 8 different years, and 12 events :lol:

Pureracket
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:31 PM
Yes you are right :devil:

Ops no you are not..

New York
1987 YEC RU :)
1988 Usopen RU, YEC WINNER :worship:
1989 Usopen SF, YEC SF :D
1990 Usopen Winner, YEC RU :hearts:
1991 YEC SF :)
1992 YEC SF :)
1994 Usopen SF, YEC WINNER :bounce: :)
1995 Usopen SF :)

Yes very cheap runs for 8 different years, and 12 events :lol:
The word "winner" only comes once after the word "US Open."(Did she even play in other Slams?) One Slam wonder. I can't believe I haven't put together all this time that you're a Gabby fan, but you hate Venus and Serena. That's probably part of the reason you hate them so much. You see in them would could have been for Gabby.

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:37 PM
The word "winner" only comes once after the word "US Open."(Did she even play in other Slams?).
You are so bright! :devil:


I can't believe I haven't put together all this time that you're a Gabby fan, but you hate Venus and Serena. That's probably part of the reason you hate them so much. You see in them would could have been for Gabby.
Definetly not. First i donīt hate Serena, i actually like her game a lot, she is so brutal when she shows up at her best. But Venus :sad: i can maybe hate some of her delusional fans, but i donīt hate her, but definetly donīt like/enjoy watching her unforced error fest and mecanical game. :kiss:

And i have said many times i rather see a Sabatini with her game and grace win only 1 slam in her carreer, than being somebody else, not to mention being a Venus or a Serena. IMO :hearts:

:wavey:

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:40 PM
Ok Matt i will stop here because you really make NO SENSE, and you are just trolling around.

Let me tell you what counts

1990-1991
Sabatini def Graf Usopen Final 6-2 7-6
Sabatini def Graf YEC Semifinal 6-4 6-4
Sabatini def Graf Tokio PP QF 4-6 6-4 7-6
Sabatini def Graf VS Florida Final (Tier I) 6-4 7-6
Sabatini def Graf Miami Semifinal (Tier I) 0-6 7-6 6-1
Sabatini def Graf Amelia Island (Tier II) Final 7-5 7-6

Sabatini def Navratilova Tokio PP Final (Tier I) 2-6 6-2 6-4
Sabatini def Seles Rome Final (Tier I) 6-3 6-2

That is peak, homework try that for Janaīs peak :kiss:
:wavey:


And YOU are telling me that I make no sense and that I'm just trolling around and then you're posting such irrelevant stats? From 1990 till 1992, Gaby beat Steffi in 7 out of 8 matches but the only Slam meeting she lost :tape: and then the next match, which happened again in a Slam, Gaby lost in straight sets to then never win a match against Graf again :lol:

Do you really want to me to tell you the "outstanding" H2Hs Gaby had with players like Navi or Seles? Well, I'm sure you know them...

I will stop now as well and let you live in the believe that Gaby was a greater player than Novotna because of her awesome Miami wins and that Sabatini she was dominating Graf at her peak (which of course had nothing to do with Steffi's slump at that time). Gaby = GOAT :hug:

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:43 PM
Gaby = GOAT :hug:
No you are wrong. Pre stabbing Seles=GOAT :wavey:

But yeah based on 1991 and their meetings Sabatini comes a close second behind Monica and ahead of Graf, thanks for the idea :kiss:


PS. Again why you donīt elaborate more on Janaīs peak and results.. Ops you canīt find much support on that :tape:

:wavey:

Matt01
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:51 PM
No you are wrong. Pre stabbing Seles=GOAT :wavey:


Now you're starting to make sense again :wavey:



But yeah based on 1991 and their meetings Sabatini comes a close second behind Monica and ahead of Graf, thanks for the idea :kiss:


With her relatively weak Slam results in 1991 with a loss to Graf in Wimbledon? No way. :kiss:

As for Jana's peak stats, maybe I will bother and post them later. I'm sure you know them already anway.

!Gio!
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:59 PM
As far as Gabby is concerned, she was definitely an underachiever, and her results were mediocre as far as Slam holders go. She's a one Slam wonder who had a good run in New York one fortnight. She was as surprised as the rest of us were. It just dawned on me that you always insult Venus and Serena, but your fav is Gabby Sabatini. OMG! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Say it slowly, and you might get the comedy of it all, "I-hate-Venus-and-Serena,-but-my-favourite-player-is-Gabby-Sabatini." :haha: Certainly, you get why people are laughing @ you.

As a huge Williams fan myself, I have to say I am ashamed of people like you. What you said is plain moronic and you make yourself sound like a jackA$$. :rolleyes:
Sabatini obviously did not have the success of the Williams sisters and not many do but her career was everything besides mediocre. By the way, What have you done in your mediocre existence :confused:
Like they say if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.
This is a healthy discussion and it does not matter if you prefer Novotna or Sabatini, they both had great careers and they both accomplished a lot. To try and belittle their accomplishments speaks for itself.:help:

Mike25
Nov 30th, 2009, 11:30 PM
No you are wrong. Pre stabbing Seles=GOAT :wavey:

But yeah based on 1991 and their meetings Sabatini comes a close second behind Monica and ahead of Graf, thanks for the idea :kiss:


PS. Again why you donīt elaborate more on Janaīs peak and results.. Ops you canīt find much support on that :tape:

:wavey:

Sabatini was a close second behind Monica in 1991?. Only if your looking at tournaments like the Italian Open, which Sabatini did win. What about the titles that count, like Slam Titles?. In fact, Monica beat up Sabatini when the chips were down, like the 1991 French Open?. If Sabatini was a close 2nd to Monica, then why was Monica able to dismantle Sabatini at '91 RG?.

You are slightly correct about Sabatini being slightly better then Steffi in 1991. However, as previously suggested, it was due more to Steffi's terrible slump at the time, rather then Sabatini's improved game. But again, Sabatini was only able to top Steffi at the smaller events, like Miami. When it really counted, like '91 Wimbledon, Steffi played inspired tennis, Sabatini came up small.

As for Jana's peak years(1996-1998), you want to penalize Jana for peaking at a time when Sabatini had retired, Steffi was battling injuries, and Monica wasn't the force she had been previously. Is that Jana's fault?. How many times do you have to rip Jana for beating Natalie Tauziat in that Wimbledon Final?.

Also, you seem to forget that Jana's peak years saw the emergence of some top competition, like Lindsay Davenport and Martina Hingis. Not players in the caliber of Steffi or Monica, but Martina and Lindsay were both forces in the game. So don't make it sound like Jana was playing against a bunch of nobodies in her prime years, which wasn't the case.

You bemoan the fact that Sabatini was stuck playing in the Steffi and Monica era, and Sabatini was unfortunate to play Steffi in numerous Slams. True enough. But Jana also had to face Steffi at several Slams, before Jana was hitting her peak. So don't make it sound like Sabatini was unlucky having to play Steffi so often, but Jana got off the hook.

Lastly, Jana's peak years stack up very favorable to Sabatini's, in spite of what you think. As far as the H2H between the two, Sabatini's 10-3 advantage over Jana is misleading at best. In fact, the majority of Sabatini's wins against Jana happened BEFORE Jana hit her peak. It's a fact you seem to conviently ignore. In addition, at least 3 of Sabatini's wins came in matches when Jana held match points against Sabatini. So even when Sabatini was beating Jana during Sabatini's peak years, Jana was still giving Sabatini all sorts of fits. That's hardly what I call domination.

It's my opinion, had Jana played Sabatini when both were in their prime, Jana would have beaten Sabatini the majority of the time. Of course we'll never know this for sure. But the fact is, Sabatini was barely beating Jana when Sabatini was in her prime, while Jana was not in her prime. Imagine what Jana could have done to Sabatini when Jana was in her prime years?. Much different results, I would think. So once again, Sabatini's H2H against Jana is completely misleading, when you dig a little deeper for the truth.

Pureracket
Nov 30th, 2009, 11:44 PM
As a huge Williams fan myself, I have to say I am ashamed of people like you. What you said is plain moronic and you make yourself sound like a jackA$$. :rolleyes:
Sabatini obviously did not have the success of the Williams sisters and not many do but her career was everything besides mediocre. By the way, What have you done in your mediocre existence :confused:
Like they say if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all.
This is a healthy discussion and it does not matter if you prefer Novotna or Sabatini, they both had great careers and they both accomplished a lot. To try and belittle their accomplishments speaks for itself.:help:Take a deep breath. Now, that you've done that consider that I don't give an hot, smokey, damn about you and what you think of me.

Now, come again with how ashamed you are, partner.;)

spencercarlos
Nov 30th, 2009, 11:49 PM
Sabatini was a close second behind Monica in 1991?. Only if your looking at tournaments like the Italian Open, which Sabatini did win. What about the titles that count, like Slam Titles?. In fact, Monica beat up Sabatini when the chips were down, like the 1991 French Open?. If Sabatini was a close 2nd to Monica, then why was Monica able to dismantle Sabatini at '91 RG?.

You are slightly correct about Sabatini being slightly better then Steffi in 1991. However, as previously suggested, it was due more to Steffi's terrible slump at the time, rather then Sabatini's improved game. But again, Sabatini was only able to top Steffi at the smaller events, like Miami. When it really counted, like '91 Wimbledon, Steffi played inspired tennis, Sabatini came up small.

As for Jana's peak years(1996-1998), you want to penalize Jana for peaking at a time when Sabatini had retired, Steffi was battling injuries, and Monica wasn't the force she had been previously. Is that Jana's fault?. How many times do you have to rip Jana for beating Natalie Tauziat in that Wimbledon Final?.

Also, you seem to forget that Jana's peak years saw the emergence of some top competition, like Lindsay Davenport and Martina Hingis. Not players in the caliber of Steffi or Monica, but Martina and Lindsay were both forces in the game. So don't make it sound like Jana was playing against a bunch of nobodies in her prime years, which wasn't the case.

You bemoan the fact that Sabatini was stuck playing in the Steffi and Monica era, and Sabatini was unfortunate to play Steffi in numerous Slams. True enough. But Jana also had to face Steffi at several Slams, before Jana was hitting her peak. So don't make it sound like Sabatini was unlucky having to play Steffi so often, but Jana got off the hook.

Lastly, Jana's peak years stack up very favorable to Sabatini's, in spite of what you think. As far as the H2H between the two, Sabatini's 10-3 advantage over Jana is misleading at best. In fact, the majority of Sabatini's wins against Jana happened BEFORE Jana hit her peak. It's a fact you seem to conviently ignore. In addition, at least 3 of Sabatini's wins came in matches when Jana held match points against Sabatini. So even when Sabatini was beating Jana during Sabatini's peak years, Jana was still giving Sabatini all sorts of fits. That's hardly what I call domination.

It's my opinion, had Jana played Sabatini when both were in their prime, Jana would have beaten Sabatini the majority of the time. Of course we'll never know this for sure. But the fact is, Sabatini was barely beating Jana when Sabatini was in her prime, while Jana was not in her prime. Imagine what Jana could have done to Sabatini when Jana was in her prime years?. Much different results, I would think. So once again, Sabatini's H2H against Jana is completely misleading, when you dig a little deeper for the truth.
As a matter of fact i never said that Sabatini was 2nd GOAT just behind Monica, i am just joking around Matt01 and his poor reasoning.



Lastly, Jana's peak years stack up very favorable to Sabatini's, in spite of what you think. As far as the H2H between the two, Sabatini's 10-3 advantage over Jana is misleading at best. In fact, the majority of Sabatini's wins against Jana happened BEFORE Jana hit her peak. It's a fact you seem to conviently ignore. In addition, at least 3 of Sabatini's wins came in matches when Jana held match points against Sabatini. So even when Sabatini was beating Jana during Sabatini's peak years, Jana was still giving Sabatini all sorts of fits. That's hardly what I call domination.

Jana is 2 years older than Sabatini, meaning that even a very young Sabatini was better than a more experienced Novotna. And during the the mid of 1990 til the mid 1991, already 22 years old, Jana was consistently on the latter rounds of singles events, got to the semis at Roland Garros, beat Sabatini on clay, a grand slam final AOpen 1991, beat Graf and Sanchez Vicario on that run. As i said she enjoyed a good 12 months of consistent results, in fact ended 1991 with a win over Graf and YEC SF, which is pretty good.

So donīt try to play the Jana was "a nobody" during the early 90ties or that she was so "off her peak". The field got tougher, that field included Seles, Graf, Sanchez Vicario, Navratilova, Sabatini, young Capriati, so on all of this players ended up having a better carreer than Jana, no surprise she could not beat these players on a consistent basis and "have her peak" at that time.

And ultimately Sabatiniīs 10-3 dismantling of Novotna in singles is domination.

!Gio!
Dec 1st, 2009, 12:37 AM
Take a deep breath. Now, that you've done that consider that I don't give an hot, smokey, damn about you and what you think of me.

Now, come again with how ashamed you are, partner.;)

Ok;), I will, I am ashamed of tennis fans like you.:wavey:
By the way do not flatter yourself, I don't give a hoot about your existence. I just find it sad that you have to resort to calling a player of the stature of Sabatini, mediocre or belittle her accomplishments when your probably not even worthy of cleaning her shoes.

Good luck to you;)

Pureracket
Dec 1st, 2009, 12:44 AM
Ok;), I will, I am ashamed of tennis fans like you.:wavey:
By the way do not flatter yourself, I don't give a hoot about your existence. I just find it sad that you have to resort to calling a player of the stature of Sabatini, mediocre or belittle her accomplishments when your probably not even worthy of cleaning her shoes.

Good luck to you;)Gorgeous(I bet you really are gorgeous, aren't you?),

You're lying. You do give an hoot because you have posted to me twice. Let me just say this: I know it's no fault of yours because you don't frequent this board as much as I do, but I think it's a slight sign of internet ignorance to try to chastise one poster without even knowing the history of the posts. For you to assume posts are in a vacuum without an history behind them reflects on your inability to see below the surface of a basic discourse.

That said, you have wasted a rather serious emotion like "shame" on me. Your declaration in no way determines how I'm going to post. To go on, you can assume what you want about my stature in my community or my life. Until you start paying my bills, your assumptions mean about as much to me as your shame does.

spencercarlos
Dec 1st, 2009, 01:18 AM
Ok;), I will, I am ashamed of tennis fans like you.:wavey:
By the way do not flatter yourself, I don't give a hoot about your existence. I just find it sad that you have to resort to calling a player of the stature of Sabatini, mediocre or belittle her accomplishments when your probably not even worthy of cleaning her shoes.

Good luck to you;)
Gorgo, donīt lose your time with Pureacket.
Afterall i am sure he is not a Sabatini hater, in fact im sure he feels she had a great carreer, he is just taking shots at me because i donīt like Venusīs game.

irma
Dec 1st, 2009, 04:59 AM
No you are wrong. Pre stabbing Seles=GOAT :wavey:

But yeah based on 1991 and their meetings Sabatini comes a close second behind Monica and ahead of Graf, thanks for the idea :kiss:


PS. Again why you donīt elaborate more on Janaīs peak and results.. Ops you canīt find much support on that :tape:

:wavey:

If peak defends on beating Steffi then Novotna's peak was the same as Sabatini's. Novotna also beat Steffi during those months and she couldn't do that anymore after Chigago 1992 (except when Steffi retired once)
Sabatini never beat Steffi again after Mai 1992 and she was younger then Steffi so no excuses there.

I guess Novotna and Sabatini are equal!

Matt01
Dec 1st, 2009, 10:41 AM
[whole post]



:clap2:

TheBoiledEgg
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:53 AM
it says it all Jana had her peak period when there was just Steffi playing top tennis in 96, and even then she was absent for 97 and hardly played in 98.

Dave.
Dec 1st, 2009, 12:08 PM
As far as Gabby is concerned, she was definitely an underachiever, and her results were mediocre as far as Slam holders go. She's a one Slam wonder who had a good run in New York one fortnight. She was as surprised as the rest of us were. It just dawned on me that you always insult Venus and Serena, but your fav is Gabby Sabatini. OMG! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Say it slowly, and you might get the comedy of it all, "I-hate-Venus-and-Serena,-but-my-favourite-player-is-Gabby-Sabatini." :haha: Certainly, you get why people are laughing @ you.

What's funny about that?

orfgab
Dec 1st, 2009, 12:56 PM
Lastly, Jana's peak years stack up very favorable to Sabatini's, in spite of what you think. As far as the H2H between the two, Sabatini's 10-3 advantage over Jana is misleading at best. In fact, the majority of Sabatini's wins against Jana happened BEFORE Jana hit her peak. It's a fact you seem to conviently ignore.

Sabatini was professional from 1985 till 1996. Novotna from 1987 till 1999. Sabatini finished 10 years in the top 10, Novotna "only" (which is already great, at least for me) 7. Sabatini finished 6 years in the top 5, Novotna "only" 4. That's something you seem to ignore. Logically, since Sabatini was a top player for longer (if you consider the top 5 or the top 10), she had the advantage. She had more chances to face Novotna at a moment when she was a better player than Novotna than the opposite because she was the better player for more years. This is a serious criteria.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Dec 1st, 2009, 02:59 PM
I prefer Czech Republic

My vote goes to Novotna

spencercarlos
Dec 1st, 2009, 07:20 PM
I contend, had Sabatini continued her aggressive play in the 3rd set at '91 Wimbledon, she would have taken the title. Instead, Sabatini played to Steffi's strength, by playing cautious. In the end, Sabatini deserved to lose the match.
Just to put you out of the missery of talking without knowing.

Here is what happened on that match from 5-4 Sabatini serving for the match.
http://www.megavideo.com/?d=IX1N6YUR

Did Sabatini deserve to lose the match? I donīt know, i actually think she lost it on bad luck, and of course on Steffiīs mental stenght, which is supreme, and the ability to produce amazing shots at such important points of the match. The 6-6 40-30 forehand inside out passing shot off her back foot is one of the greatest shots i have seen. I forgot to even put the reply on slow motion.
Still watching the clip, the notion of Sabatini choking this match/ or even having played passive tennis in the end seems ridiculous as Steffi decided to take the net herself off Gaby or she was hitting great passing shots when Gaby came in..

Mike25
Dec 1st, 2009, 10:45 PM
As a matter of fact i never said that Sabatini was 2nd GOAT just behind Monica, i am just joking around Matt01 and his poor reasoning.




Jana is 2 years older than Sabatini, meaning that even a very young Sabatini was better than a more experienced Novotna. And during the the mid of 1990 til the mid 1991, already 22 years old, Jana was consistently on the latter rounds of singles events, got to the semis at Roland Garros, beat Sabatini on clay, a grand slam final AOpen 1991, beat Graf and Sanchez Vicario on that run. As i said she enjoyed a good 12 months of consistent results, in fact ended 1991 with a win over Graf and YEC SF, which is pretty good.

So donīt try to play the Jana was "a nobody" during the early 90ties or that she was so "off her peak". The field got tougher, that field included Seles, Graf, Sanchez Vicario, Navratilova, Sabatini, young Capriati, so on all of this players ended up having a better carreer than Jana, no surprise she could not beat these players on a consistent basis and "have her peak" at that time.

And ultimately Sabatiniīs 10-3 dismantling of Novotna in singles is domination.


First of all, Jana being two years older then Sabatini isn't the huge difference you make it out to be. Were not talking about 4 or 5 years, just 2. As for Jana's results from 1990-91, you proved my point. Jana played so incredibly well during that stretch, and she was nowhere near her peak. In fact, Jana's results during that time are certainly on par with Sabatini's. As we all know, Sabatini was at her peak from around 1990-92, while Jana's best years were from 1996-98.

Making a simple deduction, we can conclude Sabatini's results were no better then Jana's, even when Sabatini was playing her best tennis. In spite of what you think, Jana was nowhere near the top of her game in the early 1990's, but Sabatini was. In fact, I never called Jana a nobody, or dismissed her accomplishments from the time period in question. The caliber of players Jana beat at that time was simply amazing, and is equally as impresssive as what Sabatini accomplished.

Lastly, that 10-3 advantage Sabatini holds over Jana isn't the complete domination you make it out to be. The reality is, most of Sabatini's wins over Jana happened long before Jana was in her prime. In fact, 4 of Jana's losses to Sabatini were 3 setters. Also, as I previously mentioned, in two of Jana's losses to Sabatini, Jana held match points herself, and could easily have beaten Sabatini.

So don't make it sound like Sabatini was taking Jana apart, and blowing Jana off court. I watched enough of their matches to see, Jana's game frustrated Sabatini when they played eachother. Did Sabatini beat Jana 10 of 13 matches?. Yes, as the record shows. But did Sabatini dismantle Jana in those matches?. Not a chance.:wavey:

moby
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:10 PM
Just to put you out of the missery of talking without knowing.

Here is what happened on that match from 5-4 Sabatini serving for the match.
http://www.megavideo.com/?d=IX1N6YUR

Did Sabatini deserve to lose the match? I donīt know, i actually think she lost it on bad luck, and of course on Steffiīs mental stenght, which is supreme, and the ability to produce amazing shots at such important points of the match. The 6-6 40-30 forehand inside out passing shot off her back foot is one of the greatest shots i have seen. I forgot to even put the reply on slow motion.
Still watching the clip, the notion of Sabatini choking this match/ or even having played passive tennis in the end seems ridiculous as Steffi decided to take the net herself off Gaby or she was hitting great passing shots when Gaby came in..Gaby must rue that lazy backhand volley at 6-5 30-all...
She really had an awful serve.

spencercarlos
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:46 PM
Gaby must rue that lazy backhand volley at 6-5 30-all...
Well she framed that volley, but to call it lazy is ridiculous. She was moving while hitting it and Steffi was like a gazelle out there scrambling until finally got the winning shot.

She really had an awful serve.
Not much to say about that but certainly it speaks a lot for the rest of her game in order to backup that errant serving to challenge the players she did throught her carreer.

spencercarlos
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:54 PM
So don't make it sound like Sabatini was taking Jana apart, and blowing Jana off court. I watched enough of their matches to see, Jana's game frustrated Sabatini when they played eachother. Did Sabatini beat Jana 10 of 13 matches?. Yes, as the record shows. But did Sabatini dismantle Jana in those matches?. Not a chance.:wavey:
Well i can say she did. once or twice :lol:

1986 Marco Island 6-3 6-1
1992 Amelia Island 6-2 6-1
1993 Miami 6-2 6-3

What now? The scores are twisted as well as your reasoning?

In fact Jana`s easiest win against Gaby comes at Wimbledon 1993 6-4 6-3. Too bad Jana could not "peak" (according to you) in any of her matches against Sabatini to dismantle her.

moby
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:58 PM
Well she framed that volley, but to call it lazy is ridiculous. She was moving while hitting it and Steffi was like a gazelle out there scrambling until finally got the winning shot.They were both scrambling. All credit go to Steffi of course, but up to that shot Gaby played the perfect point... She was running to the backhand volley (did she frame it?), but it seemed like she played it safe - perhaps assuming that Steffi was so far out of court there was no way she could make the next play - and just bunted the ball back instead of punching through the volley. There was no angle, no weight of shot, no depth behind that backhand volley. Just one of those three would have won the point for her.

Maybe lack of courage is a better description than lazy.

spencercarlos
Dec 2nd, 2009, 12:02 AM
They were both scrambling. All credit go to Steffi of course, but up to that shot Gaby played the perfect point... She was running to the backhand volley (did she frame it?), but it seemed like she played it safe - perhaps assuming that Steffi was so far out of court there was no way she could make the next play - and just bunted the ball back instead of punching through the volley.

Maybe lack of courage is a better word than lazy.
She hit it with the frame, not the strings. The after match interviews also she said that. There watch closely (i know the video does not help much).

Probably her biggest mistake was try to angle it, rather than hitting it harder to the open court. But oh well all credit to Graf, she had the "balls" to turn it on when it mattered. Ask Hingis, Navratilova, Seles, Arantxa, Novotna..

AAT
Dec 2nd, 2009, 12:05 AM
I prefer Czech Republic

My vote goes to Novotna

just because you prefer the country :tape:
those kind of things are so funny :lol: , keep going andrea paredes queen of chile!

OsBea'sBabyGirl
Feb 14th, 2010, 10:14 AM
You guys are all hilarious. Bravo to be such fans - whether in agreement or not. I love when tennis fans debate over the players they love.

Sam L
Feb 14th, 2010, 11:56 AM
I don't know how anyone can vote Novotna over Sabatini.

I mean, really?

klever58
Feb 14th, 2010, 12:39 PM
Gabi, love her

OsBea'sBabyGirl
Feb 14th, 2010, 01:01 PM
Love her forever...

Matt01
Feb 14th, 2010, 07:00 PM
I don't know how anyone can vote Novotna over Sabatini.

I mean, really?


Read my posts. The explaination is there :angel: