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azinna
Nov 3rd, 2009, 04:15 AM
Liked this article quite a bit....

Link: http://tennisworld.typepad.com/thewrap/2009/11/the-best-at-her-best.html
The Best at Her Best
by Steve Tignor

For a player of Serena Williams’ rank—No. 1 again, now that the dust has settled on 2009—and importance,
there’s never been much talk about exactly what makes her game special. We discuss the ways in which Roger
Federer uses his crosscourt backhand chip, and we know that Rafael Nadal can drill an ace up the T when his
opponent least expects it. But what about Serena? We know she’s fast, we know she’s fierce, we know she’s
got the best serve in the WTA. While those are crucial traits for any champion, we also know that an 11-time
Grand Slam winner must bring something a little more distinctive to the court.

Part of the problem is that Williams doesn’t always show us the best, let alone the most distinctive, elements
of her game. Even when she wins a major, she’ll throw in a clunker against a lesser opponent that makes you
wonder how she ever won all those Slams in the first place. But that wasn’t the case this past week in Doha.
Williams won 10 of the 11 sets she played, and she got better as she went. Even though she’d already qualified
for the semis, Williams trounced Elena Dementieva in her last round-robin match. In the final, she took her
sister Venus out of her game right from the start. There’s something satisfying in watching an all-time great
at her best and most determined, with all distractions cleared away.

It was a satisfying performance—the “real No. 1” took home the WTA’s biggest title—and an eye-opening
one as well. Or, I should say, it was an eye-narrowing performance. That’s what Serena did all afternoon
as she rocked back and forth before receiving her sister’s serve. In the past, she’s been known to betray
disgust with herself, or throw a choice word in her opponent’s direction, as she glares across the net.
On Sunday, though, Serena betrayed nothing but calmly forceful resolve. She wanted this one, and she
started getting it right away.

It used to be said of Pete Sampras that he was a master at taking his opponents out of their games early.
Serena did the same to Venus in the first set. She’d start by hitting a wide serve into the deuce court
that left Venus flailing and out of position. Then she’d follow it up by going at Venus’ body and hand-
cuffing her, a smart play against someone with limbs that long. It was a serving clinic from Serena in
the end. She finished with no double faults and won an astounding 82 percent of her second-serve
points—that’s dominance, and it put an exclamation point, if one were needed, on what raised her
above her all of her competition this year.

As the set progressed, Serena started to do the same with her returns, taking them earlier and earlier
and leaving Venus with nothing to do but scramble for her life. Venus couldn’t save herself; she started
to press and she started to miss. At first glance, watching her pull routine shots wide or rifle them into
the net, it appeared that Venus was simply having an off day. But Serena had rattled her and forced to
try for more than she normal does. The problem for Venus is that, unlike most of her opponents, Serena
is just as good at retrieving as she is, and she’s a better attacker. This is part of the explanation for why
their matches have been marked by spotty play; they get to balls that would be winners against other
players. More important, it also puts Venus in a bind; she has try to out-attack Serena. By the end of the
first set, Serena knew that all she had to do was play safely and steadily, keep Venus moving, and direct
most of the balls to her sister's more erratic forehand.

Venus found her range from the ground in the second set and held serve without much trouble. She had
the upper hand in many of the rallies, and it was Serena who began to find the net. This time it was
Serena’s competitive will, as much as her shots, that pulled her through. When she needed a strong serve,
she got it; despite Venus’ improved play, she never held a break point. The strongest and most important
of Serena’s serves came at 5-4 in the tiebreaker. The two had changed sides with Serena up 5-1 and the
match seemingly in hand. Then she made three backhand errors, her worst streak of play all day. Could
Serena get a case of the yips? If she did, she didn’t show it. The look on her face after her final miss was
not one of anger or exasperation; it was one of benign concern, of a wrong she needed to make right.
And she did, with an authoritative ace to make it 6-4—you could see Venus’ back slump after the ball
went past her—and a fearless crosscourt forehand at match point. Serena’s celebration was in keeping
with her demeanor day. She was outwardly muted—the sisters’ didn’t embrace at the net—but there was
deep relief all over her face. It had been satisfying to see her play this match, and it was satisfying after-
ward to see how much she wanted it.

So back to my first question: What’s special about Serena’s game? There are many elements you could
point to, of course, but what struck me in Doha was how the normal rules of the sport don’t seem to
apply to her. She can run through an approach shot and still put it right where she wants it. She can hit
a backhand winner with her body completely open and parallel to the net. She can make perfectly solid
contact with a ball even she's off balance. She can get to a short ball a second late and find a way to flip
it inside-out for a surprisingly angled winner.

Her ability to do this is generally chalked up to the vague and faintly insulting term “athleticism.” And
that’s got a lot to do with it, even if it is a cliché. It was said that Boris Becker couldn’t put two service
tosses in a row anywhere near each other, but it didn’t matter, he was such an athlete that he just went
up and crushed the ball, wherever it happened to be—the normal rules didn’t apply to him. But when it
comes to the Williamses, I also think of something Andy Roddick said about the way the sisters trained
as kids in Florida. He said that no one worked more diligently or hit balls with more purpose or dedication
than they did. What seems like talent or god-given athleticism in a top player is always the product of
work as well, work that was done long before we saw that player on TV. Serena is still living off of it.
Whatever position she finds herself in as she sets up for a shot, her ability to make something out of it,
to hit the ball well, remains automatic.

The 2009 season came down to the Williams sisters, and it came down to Serena. She won two majors, and
for the first time since 2001 was at her best at the Sony Ericsson Championships. This may not happen in
2010, when Justine and Kim and Maria are back at full strength—let’s hope Serena can bring this kind of
game into the new year. Back in January, at the Australian Open, she had put on an even more dominating
performance in the final against Dinara Safina. By the end of that match, as effortless winners came off
Williams’ racquet, Mary Carillo asked with some exasperation, “Why can’t I have more of this?” After a week
of wild and painful drama in Doha, I found myself thinking the same thing about women’s tennis in general.
Why can’t we have more serves like this? Why can’t we have more solid and impressive tennis? Maybe we will
next year. Until then, I’m happy to leave 2009 with a reminder, six weeks after she was at her worst at the
U.S. Open, of how good the women's game can look when Serena Williams is at her best.

serenafan08
Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:04 AM
Yes. :yeah: :worship:

Bijoux0021
Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:48 AM
Great article.

Harvs
Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:04 AM
nice artcile..

J.Bravo
Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:59 AM
Great read!

azinna
Nov 3rd, 2009, 02:40 PM
Just loved the writer's take on "athleticism" as a reason for Serena's shotmaking: gave much-deserved props to herself, her work and her parents' well-nursed vision for them right there.

SAEKeithSerena
Nov 3rd, 2009, 03:33 PM
great article, but i think with justine and kim back in the game, serena will be more focused than EVER knowing she's 28. expect even better things from her next year, no joke.

jujufreak
Nov 3rd, 2009, 04:18 PM
The 2009 season came down to the Williams sisters, and it came down to Serena. She won two majors, and for the first time since 2001 was at her best at the Sony Ericsson Championships. This may not happen in
2010, when Justine and Kim and Maria are back at full strength


Hmm, why does the author think she can't achieve the same things in 2010, with Justine, Kim and Maria back at full strength? Is he implying the women's tour has been really weak since the first two players retired (and the last one got physical problems)?

He probably got to that conclusion after noticing that Serena hasn't won a major title with Justine in the draw since Wimbledon 2003 :)

BlameSerena
Nov 3rd, 2009, 04:21 PM
Hmm, why does the author think she can't achieve the same things in 2010, with Justine, Kim and Maria back at full strength? Is he implying the women's tour has been really weak since the first two players retired (and the last one got physical problems)?

He probably got to that conclusion after noticing that Serena hasn't won a major title with Justine in the draw since Wimbledon 2003 :)

It's not Serena's fault that Justine felt like she could quit after completing her life's goal of beating V&S in the same tournament.

JuJu fans so confident before having seen her play...Hmmmmm.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Nov 3rd, 2009, 04:32 PM
It's not Serena's fault that Justine felt like she could quit after completing her life's goal of beating V&S in the same tournament.

JuJu fans so confident before having seen her play...Hmmmmm.

:lol: I don't get why they are still trying to compare Serena to Justine. I mean Serena has waaaay surpassed Justine by now and is in a totally different and higher league :).

gmokb
Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:18 PM
Okay, did I miss something? When did Serena becomes Justine and Kim's bitch, so that some think she is afraid of them and can only win if they aren't playing?:confused: Such bull is why I can't wait for her to meet them in 2010. We will see if they will knock her off the court. Yes Kim won atthe USO but then the game was never played out and I have seen Serena wins those tight matches over and over. If I am not mistaken Serena won some of her 11 slams when they were active players on the tour.

markdelaney
Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:31 PM
great article, but i think with justine and kim back in the game, serena will be more focused than EVER knowing she's 28. expect even better things from her next year, no joke.

I'm just lucky to be old enough now to enjoy seeing all Serena's (and Venus's) matches from day one. Imagine in 20 years time some teenager viewing her the same was as many teenagers now view Chris Evert !

Kim's US open was a wake up call to keep the standards high !

youizahoe
Nov 3rd, 2009, 05:38 PM
Hmm, why does the author think she can't achieve the same things in 2010, with Justine, Kim and Maria back at full strength? Is he implying the women's tour has been really weak since the first two players retired (and the last one got physical problems)?

He probably got to that conclusion after noticing that Serena hasn't won a major title with Justine in the draw since Wimbledon 2003 :)

What does it matter? There are better players out there than Justine.

Vlover
Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:37 PM
About time someone with some intellectual honesty own up and admit, there is much more to her game than just hitting the ball hard as have been falsely perpetuated over the years.

As for Carillo's comment at the AO, :spit: everyone who knows her comments were not coming from a genuine place. Deep down she wanted Safina to win, same for Maria when Serena gave her a similar beat down at the AO final but they didn't stand a chance when Serena is playig like that.:lol:

Dunlop1
Nov 3rd, 2009, 06:44 PM
Article failed right at the beginning.
Since when is Fed known for his cross court backhand chip? :tape:
Or Nadal for ace down the T :help:

azinna
Nov 3rd, 2009, 07:32 PM
Article failed right at the beginning.
Since when is Fed known for his cross court backhand chip? :tape:
Or Nadal for ace down the T :help:

I see your point, but the article was focused on the less-than-obvious in champions' games.
At their best, Roger and Rafa use those shots quite often and quite effectively.

LDVTennis
Nov 3rd, 2009, 09:31 PM
About time someone with some intellectual honesty own up and admit, there is much more to her game than just hitting the ball hard as have been falsely perpetuated over the years.

Tignor is just embellishing on that argument. He's not really saying anything different.

From that article, I quote: "So back to my first question: What’s special about Serena’s game? There are many elements you could
point to, of course, but what struck me in Doha was how the normal rules of the sport don’t seem to
apply to her. She can run through an approach shot and still put it right where she wants it. She can hit
a backhand winner with her body completely open and parallel to the net. She can make perfectly solid
contact with a ball even [if] she's off balance. She can get to a short ball a second late and find a way to flip
it inside-out for a surprisingly angled winner."

According to him, Serena has bad footwork. Her technique is bad on her backhand. Her balance is not good on both groundstrokes. She is not quick enough to get to short balls.

Yes, Tignor does say that Serena manages to make some shots despite that. But, that's quite a big "but."

Pureracket
Nov 3rd, 2009, 09:36 PM
LDTV,
I think you soon might have more important things to do than trolling Serena threads(since, obviously, you don't now). Andre's coming out of the woodworks and admitting stuff that isn't even in his book. There's no telling what kind of a role your girl Steffi played in all this. I hope he doesn't end up implicating her. We've already had one other WTA star who's turned to drugs for relief.

Denise4925
Nov 3rd, 2009, 10:30 PM
LDTV,
I think you soon might have more important things to do than trolling Serena threads(since, obviously, you don't now). Andre's coming out of the woodworks and admitting stuff that isn't even in his book. There's no telling what kind of a role your girl Steffi played in all this. I hope he doesn't end up implicating her. We've already had one other WTA star who's turned to drugs for relief.

Look, don't you know that LDTV comes out of his lair when the word "best" is in the title and Steffi's name is no where near the conversation? He has to come in and set the record straight that no one is the best, except for Steffi. :shrug: I don't even know why y'all entertain him.

darrinbaker00
Nov 3rd, 2009, 10:35 PM
Tignor is just embellishing on that argument. He's not really saying anything different.

From that article, I quote: "So back to my first question: What’s special about Serena’s game? There are many elements you could
point to, of course, but what struck me in Doha was how the normal rules of the sport don’t seem to
apply to her. She can run through an approach shot and still put it right where she wants it. She can hit
a backhand winner with her body completely open and parallel to the net. She can make perfectly solid
contact with a ball even [if] she's off balance. She can get to a short ball a second late and find a way to flip
it inside-out for a surprisingly angled winner."

According to him, Serena has bad footwork. Her technique is bad on her backhand. Her balance is not good on both groundstrokes. She is not quick enough to get to short balls.

Yes, Tignor does say that Serena manages to make some shots despite that. But, that's quite a big "but."
Look at you, trying to be clever. Failing miserably, but trying nonetheless. :yeah:

azinna
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:24 AM
Tignor is just embellishing on [an] argument: he's not really saying anything different...

...than what's often said when commentators are revising rather simple conventional wisdom about unorthodox champions.

LDVTennis, one has to realize that a similar we-now-see-the-light shift happened with reference to Steffi (who folks called a potential track star with a forehand, no backhand, limited game and an awkward habit of hitting late).

madlove
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:27 AM
nice article! but i have a feeling 2010 wont be a williams year. :D

jujufreak
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:49 AM
It's not Serena's fault that Justine felt like she could quit after completing her life's goal of beating V&S in the same tournament.

JuJu fans so confident before having seen her play...Hmmmmm.

:) Justine had every right to choose to lead a different life the past 1.5 year

This has nothing to do with confidence, only writing down the facts: coincidentally, Serena hasn't won a major title with Justine in the draw since Wimbledon 2003.

You can write down whatever excuse or remark you want, it won't change a thing ;)

jujufreak
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:52 AM
What does it matter? There are better players out there than Justine.

I'm really curious how long your list of these players is :)

Dunlop1
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:57 AM
About time someone with some intellectual honesty own up and admit, there is much more to her game than just hitting the ball hard as have been falsely perpetuated over the years.


Umm, this is how Serena wins. It is through power. She is an aggressive baseliner. She wins with her powerful, serve, forehand, backhand but more importantly the ability to hit hard while on the run.
For most players this is the opposite.

It is the truth that has been echoed by tons of tennis professionals. It is not a slight on Serena.
She has used her massive build to her advantage. As big as she is, she can still run and track down balls (albeit with not so great footwork). Good on her. But don't say there is more to her game than power.
Serena will never overwhelm her opponents with moonballs, slice, serve and volley etc. She hits it hard and to the corners.

Vlover
Nov 4th, 2009, 01:15 AM
According to him, Serena has bad footwork. Her technique is bad on her backhand. Her balance is not good on both groundstrokes. She is not quick enough to get to short balls.

He never said any such thing. That is your misconstrued interpretation, which is expected from you anyway.:rolleyes: For the rest of us we totally understand what he is saying, which is Serena doesn't have to rely only on setting up for shots but is quite capable of creating winning shots regardless of her position. Many of her counterparts can only retrieve the ball but are incapable of creating winning shots unless they are in perfect position. Anyway, I know it is killing you because he agrees with Serena and her fans that she is the best at her best.:lol:

LDVTennis
Nov 4th, 2009, 02:02 AM
He never said any such thing. That is your misconstrued interpretation, which is expected from you anyway.:rolleyes: For the rest of us we totally understand what he is saying, which is Serena doesn't have to rely only on setting up for shots but is quite capable of creating winning shots regardless of her position. Many of her counterparts can only retrieve the ball but are incapable of creating winning shots unless they are in perfect position. Anyway, I know it is killing you because he agrees with Serena and her fans that she is the best at her best.:lol:

Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:

Pureracket
Nov 4th, 2009, 02:05 AM
Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:This post resembles the machinations of a defeated poster.

BlameSerena
Nov 4th, 2009, 02:25 AM
:) Justine had every right to choose to lead a different life the past 1.5 year

This has nothing to do with confidence, only writing down the facts: coincidentally, Serena hasn't won a major title with Justine in the draw since Wimbledon 2003.

You can write down whatever excuse or remark you want, it won't change a thing ;)

Yeah Justine had a right to do that but it doesn't change the fact that she did it. She quit. Justine got the better of Serena one year :lol: Whoopety damn doo.

Don't be so quick to think things are going to be like they were in 2007 when Serena was still getting in shape.

:wavey:

Anyway, this thread is about Serena not JuJu Bean so stop trying to insert her into the conversation.

Vlover
Nov 4th, 2009, 02:27 AM
Serena's fans are so delusional.
The article wasn't written by Serena fans so I guess what Tignor witnessed with his own eyes are figments of his imagination.:(

RVD
Nov 4th, 2009, 03:00 AM
I'll give the author his props all the up up until he wrote the bolded text:The 2009 season came down to the Williams sisters, and it came down to Serena. She won two majors, and
for the first time since 2001 was at her best at the Sony Ericsson Championships. This may not happen in 2010, when Justine and Kim and Maria are back at full strength—let’s hope Serena can bring this kind of game into the new year. Back in January, at the Australian Open, she had put on an even more dominating performance in the final against Dinara Safina. By the end of that match, as effortless winners came off Williams’ racquet, Mary Carillo asked with some exasperation, “Why can’t I have more of this?” After a week of wild and painful drama in Doha, I found myself thinking the same thing about women’s tennis in general.
Why can’t we have more serves like this? Why can’t we have more solid and impressive tennis? Maybe we will next year. Until then, I’m happy to leave 2009 with a reminder, six weeks after she was at her worst at the U.S. Open, of how good the women's game can look when Serena Williams is at her best. This tells me that he isn't a seriously fan of either Serena or the game of tennis.

I get the sense that he looked at the H-2-H, talked to a few buddies who occasionally watch tennis to see a little WTA Girlie Booty, and then wrote something nice about the new #1, and winner of the last ultimate tournament of the year where only the best of the best play. But since he used the qualifier [may not happen], I'm willing to let that little slip in judgement slide. :)

ireneteri
Nov 4th, 2009, 03:34 AM
What does it matter? There are better players out there than Justine.

:lol:

Denise4925
Nov 4th, 2009, 03:51 AM
Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:

Delusional?? Let's start with Steffi retired a few years ago LDV. :)

darrinbaker00
Nov 4th, 2009, 03:57 AM
Delusional?? Let's start with Steffi retired a few years ago LDV. :)
Not to mention the fact that she's married to a lying, drug-using, toupee-wearing..... :tape:

Denise4925
Nov 4th, 2009, 04:09 AM
Not to mention the fact that she's married to a lying, drug-using, toupee-wearing..... :tape:

Andre doesn't wear a toupee. :confused: Plus, that was in his past. He's more than made up for his mistakes in his youth. Shouldn't he be forgiven, especially since he's confessed his sins?

darrinbaker00
Nov 4th, 2009, 04:24 AM
Andre doesn't wear a toupee. :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Agassi#Personal_and_family_life

OK, so it was a wig, not a toupee. I have no idea what the difference is, but..... :shrug:

Plus, that was in his past. He's more than made up for his mistakes in his youth. Shouldn't he be forgiven, especially since he's confessed his sins?
You used to be able to tell when I was joking, De. I must be losing my touch.

bandabou
Nov 4th, 2009, 05:00 AM
Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:


Oh so you still talking? I was still waiting for you to tell me where Andre's courage was when he lied about his failed drug test? I guess that was a bit too difficult to answer.

But yet here u r, blah blah?

Denise4925
Nov 4th, 2009, 05:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Agassi#Personal_and_family_life

OK, so it was a wig, not a toupee. I have no idea what the difference is, but..... :shrug:



http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq142/denise4925/200px-Andre_Agassi_2005_US_Clay_Cou.jpg

If that's a toupee, he needs to go to another wig shop. :confused:

Edit: Oh I see you're talking about in 1990

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq142/denise4925/andre.jpg

Good toupee. No one would ever guess. :shrug: At least I didn't.

Cakeisgood
Nov 4th, 2009, 05:10 AM
http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq142/denise4925/200px-Andre_Agassi_2005_US_Clay_Cou.jpg

If that's a toupee, he needs to go to another wig shop. :confused:

Edit: Oh I see you're talking about in 1990

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq142/denise4925/andre.jpg

Good toupee. No one would ever guess. :shrug: At least I didn't.

It's a WEAVE!!!!!! He admits it in his book. Before Tyra and Beyonce, there was Andre!!!!! :lol::lol:

darrinbaker00
Nov 4th, 2009, 05:14 AM
It's a WEAVE!!!!!! He admits it in his book. Before Tyra and Beyonce, there was Andre!!!!! :lol::lol:
He's saying that the reason he lost to Andres Gomez in the 1990 Roland Garros final is because he was afraid his wig would come off if he went all out. Someone should tell Andre that some secrets should remain secret. ;)

jujufreak
Nov 4th, 2009, 11:02 AM
Yeah Justine had a right to do that but it doesn't change the fact that she did it. She quit. Serena got the better of Justine one year :lol: Whoopety damn doo.

Don't be so quick to think things are going to be like they were in 2007 when Serena was still getting in shape.

:wavey:

Well, she didn't quit, she took a long break, because now she's back :)

Serena got the better of Justine one year? Is this based on one match :) ?

I never said or insinuated things will be like they were in 2007.

Funny how Serena never is in shape when she loses... It would be interesting to know when, according to her fans, she really has been in shape (and how quickly she lost it again).

BlameSerena
Nov 4th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Well, she didn't quit, she took a long break, because now she's back :)

Serena got the better of Justine one year? Is this based on one match :) ?

I never said or insinuated things will be like they were in 2007.

Funny how Serena never is in shape when she loses... It would be interesting to know when, according to her fans, she really has been in shape (and how quickly she lost it again).

That was supposed to be "Justine got the better of Serena 1 year...whoopety damn doo." :angel:

Anyway, we'll see what happens :shrug: next year. You and other JuJuFreakazoids have been aiming for Serena so please don't act brand new. No one in this thread, certainly not me even brought JuJu into the convo. I'm not interested in continuing this dialogue with you because Serena has far and away established herself as an all time great.

All I can say to JuJu Bean is "Get on her level."

Toodles, Hon. :wavey:

youizahoe
Nov 4th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:

We might be delusional, but luckily we don't share your low level of intelligence.

Vlover
Nov 4th, 2009, 01:07 PM
... Plus, that was in his past. He's more than made up for his mistakes in his youth. Shouldn't he be forgiven, especially since he's confessed his sins?
Denise, I have nothing personally against Andre but his admission just underscore the disparities that exist in the tennis establishment. We all know that the Sisters could not get away with a positive drug test like he did much less to write about it to sell books. Everyone is patting him on the back for "bravery" is just ridiculous to me. If he was so brave, why wait until after retirement?:rolleyes: I just can't take the hypocrisy of the tennis establishment and people like LDV pretending that tennis practice equality for all.

Everyone knows I'm no fan of Hingis but it is so unfair to her to be banned for 2yrs while Andre got way free and Gasget go 2 mths.:tape: I guess the lesson is, if you get caught, just tell a "story" even if it sounds implausible and you stand a better chance of getting away with it.

jujufreak
Nov 4th, 2009, 01:58 PM
That was supposed to be "Justine got the better of Serena 1 year...whoopety damn doo." :angel:

Anyway, we'll see what happens :shrug: next year. You and other JuJuFreakazoids have been aiming for Serena so please don't act brand new. No one in this thread, certainly not me even brought JuJu into the convo. I'm not interested in continuing this dialogue with you because Serena has far and away established herself as an all time great.

All I can say to JuJu Bean is "Get on her level."

Toodles, Hon. :wavey:

Noone's denying she's one of the most successful tennis players ever with her 11 slam singles titles ;) Or at least, I'm not denying she is!

It was the cited author of the article who mentioned Justine first :wavey:

bandabou
Nov 4th, 2009, 04:29 PM
Jujufreaks talking about Serena never winning with Juju in the draw..:lol: You guys DO realise that Juju herself only won THREE majors with Serena in the draw. So it ain't like Juju herself were racking them up left and right with Serena in the draw.

mdterp01
Nov 4th, 2009, 05:37 PM
Jujufreaks talking about Serena never winning with Juju in the draw..:lol: You guys DO realise that Juju herself only won THREE majors with Serena in the draw. So it ain't like Juju herself were racking them up left and right with Serena in the draw.

Chile please...these morons will do anything to start a Justine vs Serena argument, especially now that Justine is coming back and they think she will just totally take over again. The majors don't lie though do they? 11 singles majors...won all 4 at least once and won everyone except the French at least twice. Lets not even get into Olympic gold and doubles majors. They are two great players with two different styles who will both be in the hall of fame. All of this bitching back and forth is so old and tired. Lets just be thankful that we've had Serena for all these years and that we'll have another great player in Justine coming back onto the scene. Some of you DIPSHITS really need to get a life and stop with all this elementary school foolishness. :wavey:

bandabou
Nov 4th, 2009, 07:08 PM
and that's just the way it is. Juju great, Serena greater..no shame in that.

sweetpeas
Nov 4th, 2009, 07:32 PM
great article, but i think with justine and kim back in the game, serena will be more focused than EVER knowing she's 28. expect even better things from her next year, no joke.


Right,!Just love it...Just like I love the sisters.
__________________

DOUBLEFIST
Nov 4th, 2009, 08:06 PM
It is the truth that has been echoed by tons of tennis professionals.

Tons of tennis pros also declare that Serena, when at her best, is unbeatable by anyone. So..., that argument cuts both ways.


This thread is VERY telling. That article didn't say anything that was inaccurate about Serena and her achievements. It even offered the Queater's fans some concessions and yet in marches LDTV with his B.S., and of course certain others. You would think that fair minded posters - even those who aren't fans of Serena, can tip their hat and say "well done, she had a great year."

But these clowns are so full of hate and venom, they can't even manage that, but have to try and figure out some way to diminish her. Her success clearly hurts them.

I credit Dunlop, at least. Though he/she never claimed to be a Serena fan, and I don't think he/she's completely fair in analysis of the breadth of her game, at least he/she grudgingly acknowledges Serena's ability and talent.

le bon vivant
Nov 4th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Serena, with her poor footwork, fatness, and recreational player serve has won 1/4 of the slams this decade.
Considering all the poor aspects of her game, shes done remarkably well.

2Black
Nov 4th, 2009, 09:46 PM
Truly ENJOYED reading that.

jujufreak
Nov 4th, 2009, 10:58 PM
But these clowns are so full of hate and venom.

You sound pretty full of venom yourself tbh ...

I don't know about you, but I don't hate every player I don't root for in general

Vlover
Nov 5th, 2009, 04:56 PM
Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.
While you are busy focused and obsessed with Serena's so called imperfections as failures, she is being one of the main features in magazines such as Vogue, collected 3 of the biggest trophies in tennis, selling out her things on HSN, made record breaking prize money and sits at #1 in tennis. FACTSdon't lie, therefore based on the FACTS and not manufactured myths any reasonable person can see who is being delusional.

Philbo
Nov 5th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Not to mention the fact that she's married to a lying, drug-using, toupee-wearing..... :tape:nno
You beat me to it. I thought of LDV when Andre's admissions came out (bravery my ass, its pure publicity generation to sell more books, which is fair enough, but lets call a spade a spade), but I thought of LDV because now he needs to downgrade the little fairy tale existence he has of Steffi and andre and their 2 or 3 kids and update that view to include the fact that at the end of the day, Steffi is married to someone who once used crystal meth, talked his way out of it by spinning pure bullshit, and wore a weave on court which be uses as an excuse for losing a tennis match... Not judging Andre for using the drug, but I do take a perverse sense of satisfaction in the perfect little couple's image being tainted so....

The best thing about it is the admission came from Andre himself to sell books, had it leaked some other way LDV would have dismissed it as yet another grand conspiracy orchestrated against the golden couple by a secret cabal made up of IMG Agents, Lesbian Female tennis players and Frank Deford etc etc

Serena's fans are so delusional.

She doesn't need good footwork; she can "create winning shots regardless of her position."

She's not fat; she's just a big girl.

She's not a bad sport; she's just had enough with the conspiracy of bad calls.

She's not a bad fashion designer; she sells her stuff on HSN.

She's not a bad actress; she is just focusing on tennis.

She's not lazy; she just cares about the majors.

She's not selfish or self-centered; she just couldn't play FedCup because she is tired. Tired, not lazy.

Keep them coming! --- :lol::lol::lol:

This did give me a chuckle though. Full of shit and catty in way only LDV could be, but witty nevertheless...

RVD
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:04 PM
nno
You beat me to it. I thought of LDV when Andre's admissions came out (bravery my ass, its pure publicity generation to sell more books, which is fair enough, but lets call a spade a spade), but I thought of LDV because now he needs to downgrade the little fairy tale existence he has of Steffi and andre and their 2 or 3 kids and update that view to include the fact that at the end of the day, Steffi is married to someone who once used crystal meth, talked his way out of it by spinning pure bullshit, and wore a weave on court which be uses as an excuse for losing a tennis match... Not judging Andre for using the drug, but I do take a perverse sense of satisfaction in the perfect little couple's image being tainted so....

The best thing about it is the admission came from Andre himself to sell books, had it leaked some other way LDV would have dismissed it as yet another grand conspiracy orchestrated against the golden couple by a secret cabal made up of IMG Agents, Lesbian Female tennis players and Frank Deford etc etc



This did give me a chuckle though. Full of shit and catty in way only LDV could be, but witty nevertheless...:haha: :haha:
And once again, LDVTennis gets his ass PWNED. :worship:

This should serve as an example to Haters everywhere. It tells me that you shouldn’t be so quick to disparage others when you don't know how IMPERFECT your own favorites are. It also demonstrates that ignorance through anger can be a VERY embarrassing thing. :o
Man, I just LOVE when hateful people get their asses handed to the on a silver platter.

Vlover
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:07 PM
The best thing about it is the admission came from Andre himself to sell books, had it leaked some other way LDV would have dismissed it as yet another grand conspiracy orchestrated against the golden couple by a secret cabal made up of IMG Agents, Lesbian Female tennis players and Frank Deford etc etc
:lol: Also, thankfully Serena didn't have to resort to drugs to escape from her vulnerabilities or gain publicity to sell her book.

RVD
Nov 5th, 2009, 08:23 PM
With this admission, Serena's star is even shining brighter and brighter as a champion and as an individual. http://veiks.com/misc/star/spin.gif

thrust
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:06 PM
What does it matter? There are better players out there than Justine.

Who today besides Serena and Venus are as good as Justine, Kim, and Maria at their near best? The answer, NOONE!

Matt01
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:10 PM
With this admission, Serena's star is even shining brighter and brighter as a champion and as an individual. http://veiks.com/misc/star/spin.gif


If only your posts were as bright as Serena's star :tape:

Olórin
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:14 PM
If only your posts were as bright as Serena's star :tape:

And if only your posts were as bright as a 1 watt lightbulb, that MIGHT be an improvement.

Hi! :D

thrust
Nov 5th, 2009, 09:15 PM
[QUOTE=Philbo;16777989]nno
You beat me to it. I thought of LDV when Andre's admissions came out (bravery my ass, its pure publicity generation to sell more books, which is fair enough, but lets call a spade a spade), but I thought of LDV because now he needs to downgrade the little fairy tale existence he has of Steffi and andre and their 2 or 3 kids and update that view to include the fact that at the end of the day, Steffi is married to someone who once used crystal meth, talked his way out of it by spinning pure bullshit, and wore a weave on court which be uses as an excuse for losing a tennis match... Not judging Andre for using the drug, but I do take a perverse sense of satisfaction in the perfect little couple's image being tainted so....

The best thing about it is the admission came from Andre himself to sell books, had it leaked some other way LDV would have dismissed it as yet another grand conspiracy orchestrated against the golden couple by a secret cabal made up of IMG Agents, Lesbian Female tennis players and Frank Deford etc etc



This did give me a chuckle though. Full of shit and catty in way only LDV could be, but witty nevertheless...


Good post! I always thought, now I know, Andre Agassi is a creep!

bandabou
Nov 5th, 2009, 10:13 PM
:lol: LDV,LDV..see. So now who's stronger now and had more courage: Serena or Andre? Serena never had to resort to drugs to handle her own demons. Andre? Had to wear a wig ( what kinda man is that desperate to have long hair???) and then had to resort to drugs when the going got tough!

It's understandable that he hasn't been heard from ever since this news came out.

Matt01
Nov 5th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Hi! :D


Hey :)

RVD
Nov 6th, 2009, 01:04 AM
And if only your posts were as bright as a 1 watt lightbulb, that MIGHT be an improvement.

Hi! :DI feel so sorry for Matt01.
His worst nightmare has just come true---Serena winning the YEC and recapturing the year end #1 WTA ranking. :worship:
He must be going NUTZZZZ!
I just hope that there are no guns or ropes in his house. :lol:

Donny
Nov 6th, 2009, 06:07 AM
The idea that Serena at her best is a level above everyone else is widely held now; by the time she's retired, it will be conventional wisdom.

As you can see, that's making some posters on this board very upset.

LovelyAnu
Nov 6th, 2009, 06:49 AM
I believe Serena's dominance has been over-rated. When she entered events like Stanford, Rome, Cincinnati, Toronto, she could hardly make the last four. It's different as compared to the reigns that Graf, Seles and Navratilova had.

LovelyAnu
Nov 6th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I read that one by Tignor too....
He seems to have supported Serena out of the way. However, Venus' standing is all the more shaken infront of sister Serena. take a look at this load of crap i came across in this article - Venus : moving away from glory...

"The truth of the matter is that above any other hurdle, its the burden of expectations that is insurmountable for Venus Williams. She seems more comfortable being an underdog and finds it comparatively easier to perform minus pressure. In all her major triumphs post 2001, there hasn't been a single slam win that she earned, that was driven by the rage of expectations"

and it doesn't end here, listen to this -

There is also an element of stubbornness in Williams' game which opposes the requirement to adapt to a more suitable gameplan during the matches. It becomes quite evident from her style of play which is more about 'winning the point my way' as opposed to simply 'winning the point at any cost'. The innumerable double faults and repetitive forehand errors played with an approach to kiss the lines, thereby ignoring the 'margin-rule' in tennis are some of the testimonials that let the opponents claw their way back into the match even if Venus' lead is quite formidable. Again, this is the same approach that has seen her emerge victorious in so many other occasions.

Matt01
Nov 6th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I feel so sorry for Matt01.
His worst nightmare has just come true---Serena winning the YEC and recapturing the year end #1 WTA ranking. :worship:


You are wrong and you don't know anything about my worst nightmares :lol:

Cookie Power
Nov 6th, 2009, 02:45 PM
I just hope that there are no guns or ropes in his house. :lol:

I don't.

rucolo
Nov 6th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Great article!:yeah::worship:

azinna
Nov 7th, 2009, 07:55 PM
Umm, this is how Serena wins. It is through power. She is an aggressive baseliner. She wins with her powerful, serve, forehand, backhand but more importantly the ability to hit hard while on the run.
For most players this is the opposite. It is the truth that has been echoed by tons of tennis professionals. It is not a slight on Serena.
She has used her massive build to her advantage. As big as she is, she can still run and track down balls (albeit with not so great footwork)....

I agree that Serena's ability to hit hard on the run was an over-riding factor in her past wins -- up to 2003. Much less so since then. Anyway, that ability cannot be simply attributed to "her massive build" or her "athleticism." As Tignor and others are beginning to pick up, Serena's got shot-making talent and honed skills on par with some of the greats of the women's game.

...But don't say there is more to her game than power. Serena will never overwhelm her opponents with moonballs, slice, serve and volley etc. She hits it hard and to the corners.

Well, advancements in tennis since the 1990s have resulted in few if any slam winners, male or female, who rely on overwhelming opponents with moonballs and slices and serve & volley....and now we've got a long line of champions who regularly hit hard and to the corners (including Amelie, Kim, Federer, Nadal & Justine). Further advancements (and injuries) since the early 00s have demanded that repeat champs be adept at their own versions of the change-up: Serena has been the most proficient at making these adjustments. Any clear-eyed observer of matches leading to her post-2003 slam wins can see there's more to her game now than power.

LDVTennis
Nov 30th, 2009, 06:00 PM
:lol: LDV,LDV..see. So now who's stronger now and had more courage: Serena or Andre? Serena never had to resort to drugs to handle her own demons. Andre? Had to wear a wig ( what kinda man is that desperate to have long hair???) and then had to resort to drugs when the going got tough!

It's understandable that he hasn't been heard from ever since this news came out.

Andre had the courage to start a school in a largely black neighborhood, where he grew up as a kid. For the 2008-09 school year, 95 percent, 557 of the 585 students enrolled in the Andre Agassi Academy identified as African-American/Black. The facts are here: http://www.agassiprep.org/parents.html. See the link for the Accountability Report on the right. There is more information about the school here: http://www.agassiprep.org/about.html. From the beginning, Andre and his foundation have been the major source of funding for the school.

Meanwhile, what has Serena done with her millions, other than spend them on bling? With those millions, has she founded a school in the Compton neighborhood where she spent her childhood? Is she now financially at-risk for the success of the school she started in Compton? NO, because she never started a school in Compton.

But, Serena did technically found a school in Kenya, Africa. I say technically because almost all the funds came from a partnership between the Build African Schools initiative — an American non profit making organization — and HP. As a spokesman for HP, Serena probably just lent the use of her name.

I guess it would have been too much trouble for Serena to start a school in Compton. Just too tough, the schools are so bad there already. And, HP probably had no interest in funding a school there. Very few marketing opportunities for both HP and Serena. Now, how's that for courage and facing one's demons, the demons in Serena's case being Compton, the place where she supposedly had to dodge bullets as she hit tennis balls. :rolleyes:

But, thanks for the opportunity to show how absolutely shallow your affection for Serena is. So quick to pull the race card when it seems like Serena is the victim yet again of the white tennis establishment, yet so completely unaware of the fact that Andre with his school and his money has done more over the years to help African-American children than Serena. And, Andre isn't even black, Serena is.

So, make fun of Andre all you want. From my point of view, you are just making fun of yourself. It's not like Andre suffers from the comparison to Serena. Quite the contrary. :wavey:

Donny
Nov 30th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Andre had the courage to start a school in a largely black neighborhood, where he grew up as a kid. For the 2008-09 school year, 95 percent, 557 of the 585 students enrolled in the Andre Agassi Academy identified as African-American/Black. The facts are here: http://www.agassiprep.org/parents.html. See the link for the Accountability Report on the right. There is more information about the school here: http://www.agassiprep.org/about.html. From the beginning, Andre and his foundation have been the major source of funding for the school.

What do the race of the students have to with anything? To point out that Agassi has black friends? you and *JR* should hang out.

RenaSlam.
Nov 30th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Step.

DOUBLEFIST
Nov 30th, 2009, 06:23 PM
What do the race of the students have to with anything? To point out that Agassi has black friends? you and *JR* should hang out.

:lol: you have to understand that, for LDV, anytime a white person interacts with a black person it MUST take courage. :lol:

LDVTennis
Nov 30th, 2009, 06:57 PM
What do the race of the students have to with anything? To point out that Agassi has black friends? you and *JR* should hang out.

The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

BlameSerena
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:00 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

Time out. You should read what Andre had the effrontery to say about Serena before you go getting mad at Serena fans for not defending him.

YOU are the hypocrite. And what the heck does Andre helping African-American children have to do with "Serena fans?" Yikes. :tape::help:

LDVTennis
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:01 PM
:lol: you have to understand that, for LDV, anytime a white person interacts with a black person it MUST take courage. :lol:

More shallow remarks from Serena fans, how surprising!

By the way, how much courage did it take to go up to Venus and ask for her autograph? I suppose if you knew she was going to snub you, you would have been more afraid of her. --- :lol:

Donny
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:02 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

Who's playing the race card now?

But even if we accept that premise, because we support Serena's because she's black, we aren't allowed to criticize a liar, cheater, and meth head because... he was nice to some black kids? What kind of bullshit logic is this?

I support Serena because I like Serena as a personality and as a competitor. Not her race. Please save your racist speculation for more gullible posters.

Diesel
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:02 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.


You're just stupid :o There's not much else that can be said about the rubbish you believe and posted right here.

choi15
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:17 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding. Me....................:smash:

BlameSerena
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:22 PM
More shallow remarks from Serena fans, how surprising!

By the way, how much courage did it take to go up to Venus and ask for her autograph? I suppose if you knew she was going to snub you, you would have been more afraid of her. --- :lol:

Dammit! That was meant to be a bad rep for you but my keys got stuck. Shit.

ireneteri
Nov 30th, 2009, 07:50 PM
great article, but i think with justine and kim back in the game, serena will be more focused than EVER knowing she's 28. expect even better things from her next year, no joke.

i agree, watch out justine!

Arnian
Nov 30th, 2009, 09:58 PM
This was a great article but the serve down the T reference about Nadal had me scratching my head on that one.

This didn't tell me anything I didn't already know though:

Serena has the best serve in the game ? Yes

Serena has unparalleled athleticism among most players? Yes

I feel like the article failed to miss the most important thing Serena has, her determination and mind. Sometimes just her sheer will to win, makes it happen. I don't think I've seen another player win just off the audacity of hope, as many times as Serena has. To me her mindset is her best quality!

G1Player2
Dec 1st, 2009, 12:53 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

:speakles: The racism on this board never ceases to amaze me. You must be smoking that crack like Andre was. :lol:

Arnian
Dec 1st, 2009, 06:44 PM
I don't know if that can be classified as racism, it's a difference to discriminate against someones over race but it's not racist to call someone out on supporting someone just because they're of the same race.

RVD
Dec 1st, 2009, 11:32 PM
:speakles: The racism on this board never ceases to amaze me. You must be smoking that crack like Andre was. :lol:You know G1Player2, sometimes it surprises me to the point where I have to stop reading and leave the thread...

...which is what I'm gonna do right now.

But I'll tell ya what...
It's sheer ignorance of these posters concerning "race" is astounding!
Then there's the matter of what some posters get away with posting on this board. *SMH*

Vlover
Dec 2nd, 2009, 01:52 PM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.
Vintage LDV! Yea, blame Serena fans for not giving a pass to a self admitted drug addict among other things.:rolleyes: Both Serena and Andre encountered low points in their lives and wrote books about the different paths they took to overcome their problems. Most of us much prefer Serena's route as oppose to taking drugs and lying about it, so how does race applies here?:confused: Also I don't get how Andre should be glorified for his charity work but Serena should be vilified for hers. Please explain how that logic works.:tape: Andre chose to reveal his true self and hope to profit from it therefore I can see no bravery or courage in that as you claim.

le bon vivant
Dec 2nd, 2009, 06:25 PM
If you let LDV talk long enough, he will reveal more about himself than he even realizes. :lol:
Amazing.

sweetpeas
Dec 2nd, 2009, 08:05 PM
Re: Serena: The Best at Her Best
If you let LDV talk long enough, he will reveal more about himself than he even realizes.
Amazing.

RIGHT!!!!!:wavey:

Dunlop1
Dec 2nd, 2009, 08:27 PM
Hmm so many things about this thread.

First of all someone mentioned that Agassi had said some things about Serena Williams. I am not aware of this and a google search revealed nothing.
I am interested to know if this indeed happened. (I have been following tennis for a long time and haven't heard of this)

Secondly, people who are judging Agassi. As Jesus said "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone".
There is no perfect person, it doesn't matter who you are. Look at Tiger Woods.
Agassi has done a lot of good and he has used and continues to use his wealth and influence to help and motivate the lives of underprivileged youth. That is more than can be said for A LOT of posters here.

Thirdly, I know African-Americans who are fans of players because they are black. It is not racist to observe this. Just like this past US Presidential election had the highest African American turnout due to the president being half-black. There are people who are happy to see someone like them achieving and being at the top of their respective fields. This is not uncommon in underrepresented groups.

I am sure there are posters on this forum that like the William sisters, and some other black players because they are black. It may not be the only reason why, but it plays a part.
Just like there are players that like Momo because she is gay. It is the self-identification of under-represented groups.

I do not feel it is racist to point that out.

I know for sure Denise would not be a WS fan if they were white lol.

RVD
Dec 2nd, 2009, 11:51 PM
Wow. Just WOW!! I can't believe that someone would seriously write something like this and feel justified or even satisfied with this sort of logic.
And here I said that I would leave the thread. But I guess that's what happens when my curiosity gets the better of me. Anyway, after reading your post Dunlop1, I was more than compelled to address several misconceptions, that hopefully turn out to be misunderstandings on my part.

Hmm so many things about this thread.

First of all someone mentioned that Agassi had said some things about Serena Williams. I am not aware of this and a google search revealed nothing.
I am interested to know if this indeed happened. (I have been following tennis for a long time and haven't heard of this)It is a fact that Andre Agassi did make unwarranted disparaging comments about Serena (and Venus) "several" times. And since Serena fans are the ones who follow her, we should know. As for not being able to locate text on his comments about Serena (and Venus), how does that negate the very fact that these disparaging statements were made? I don't get the logic here.
Some of the most intelligent posters on this entire board are Serena fans, and yet we get shat on and grouped as an ignorant, lying, race-card-playing posters.
I find the thinly veiled insinuation more despicable than if you were to have come straight out and overtly proclaim that we're all ignorant, blind, racist, followers.

Secondly, people who are judging Agassi. As Jesus said "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone".
There is no perfect person, it doesn't matter who you are. Look at Tiger Woods.
Agassi has done a lot of good and he has used and continues to use his wealth and influence to help and motivate the lives of underprivileged youth. That is more than can be said for A LOT of posters here.I, as a Serena supporter, have also been a follower and supporter of Andre Agassi for my own particular reasons. Much of it having to do with the fact that he's accomplished something very difficult; which was to turn his life completely around and become a near-model athlete. His latter years have been more or less exemplary and, again, a near-model of how I believe a great champion should behave and lead. Aside from his nasty, snide, and unnecessary comments about the sisters, I give him high marks for his charity work (which Serena has also helped with and participated in, by the way).

As for the criticism of Andre Agassi by some posters...
By your own admission, no one is perfect, and Agassi isn't beyond reproach or criticism when he makes his own mistakes; as he did when he levied criticism upon others, while he himself lied to the public for untold years. Fact is, he screwed up on MANY levels and people have the right to criticize a public figure such as Agassi.

Thirdly, I know African-Americans who are fans of players because they are black. It is not racist to observe this. Just like this past US Presidential election had the highest African American turnout due to the president being half-black. There are people who are happy to see someone like them achieving and being at the top of their respective fields. This is not uncommon in underrepresented groups.This particular part really had me frothing, and here's why...

I am a multi-ethnic man, but align more with my African-American side, I take great umbrage to being defined by someone who knows absolutely nothing about me and why I’m a fan. But I’ll leave it at that since I’m far too angry to expound on how pompous, pretentious, and discriminatory, your post is.
Aside from us Black posters, there are white posters here who are even more supportive of the sisters than you might believe. Yet, if I’m reading the context of your post correctly, these folks are perfectly fine in their fanship of the sisters, solely because they are White.
What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of the sisters? What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of their own countrymen and women?

Also, are you suggesting that White people are not extremely biased against the sisters because they are Black?!
Or how about Whites supporting White players because they are White?
As a Black man whose academic and work environment has been dominated by mostly White people, I can tell you for a fact that White people definitely support one another because they :
1) Can relate to each other culturally,
2) Trust each other,
3) Are completely ignorant of anything outside their own “ethnicity”,
4) or simply don’t care enough about other "races", or find other “races” important enough to give a shit about.

So in essence, I can therefore surmise that you are elevating all other ethnic groups above the Black supporters of the sisters based upon the wrongheaded supposition that we support their Blackness first and foremost.
That, I'm sad to say, is a very bigoted way of thinking, and is why I'm so livid.

Oh, and by the way, your supporting text concerning Barack Obama receiving support because of his being “partially” Black only serves to emphasize the ignorance of your argument. I’d also say that it’s a bit of a leap since so many elements factored in to why many Blacks supported and voted for him.
Moreover, it is a fact that Black voters are the most color-blind of all other ethnic groups. http://www.jsonline.com/news/president/34490274.html
I certainly hope that you take the time to read the linked article.

I am sure there are posters on this forum that like the William sisters, and some other black players because they are black. It may not be the only reason why, but it plays a part.
Just like there are players that like Momo because she is gay. It is the self-identification of under-represented groups.How about liking and supporting them because they represent the best that tennis has to offer?
How about posters liking and supporting them because they find them easier to relate to and possess similar beliefs and ideologies?
How about liking them because of their indomitable spirit and tenacious will and drive?
Why is it that non-Blacks come on this board and talk about Blacks as if we’re a science project whose secrets have been uncovered?

Why not speak on they things you know to be facts concerning your own “race”, and ASK us about ours; rather than assume the worst?
It just boggles the mind how so many non-Blacks can make so many erroneous and superior statements and feel pride in doing so. That is something that I will NEVER understand.

I do not feel it is racist to point that out.Of course you don't, because you feel justifiably superior in your beliefs, right? And allow me to point out that the most heinous of racists throughout history felt the same as you. So you may want to revisit that particular part of your philosophy.

I know for sure Denise would not be a WS fan if they were white lol.And now you not only know how Black people in general think and feel, but how one particular Black female poster does.

I'm sorry but you have exposed yourself to be the very epitome of the type of individual that Black people have had problems with throughout American history. Through your own stated beliefs here in this very post, you have expressed very racist ideology by generalizing an entire ethnic group (not once ever mentioning any other groups), and then categorizing a single female within that group for added measure.
This is my own personal belief, after having read your post several times, but you are exactly what many of the Black posters complain about on this board. But then somehow, I get the impression that you may find such a distinction complimentary.

Matt01
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:16 AM
Some of the most intelligent posters on this entire board are Serena fans, and yet we get shat on and group as ignorant, lying, race-card-playing posters.


Some of the worst trolls here are Serena-fans, too, but probably these trolls are the same posters that you consider intelligent :tape:

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:17 AM
Ok #1, one of my best friends is a huge WS fan and he's black and he likes them because they are black. That's not the only reason, but a big reason why. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this and discussing it. Plenty of people like Amelie because she's openly gay etc (I have to admit I have respect for her because of this). I have discussed with him time and time again about how he's concerned there won't be anymore black women to support after the sisters are gone, and sometimes I think it greatly bothers him. Yet, he does find other players he likes, but he wouldn't say no if you asked him if he liked the WS a lot because of the fact that they are black.

Also, I've met plenty of black people who openly stated they voted for Obama because he was black. I'm white and i campaigned for him, love the man, but still there is nothing racist or wrong with pointing things like this out. Plenty of women voted for Hilary because she was a woman, things like this just happen. It doesn't make someone evil for pointing out the obvious.

This however,



I know for sure Denise would not be a WS fan if they were white lol.

I very much disagree with, and think it's quite insulting to assume things about someone you don't even know.

G1Player2
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:20 AM
Some of the worst trolls here are Serena-fans, too, but probably these trolls are the same posters that you consider intelligent :tape:

Which Serena fans are trolls?

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:20 AM
Which Serena fans are trolls?

Thriller would be one i could think of off the top of my head ^_^

Matt01
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:21 AM
I very much disagree with, and think it's quite insulting to assume things about someone you don't even know.


Apparently the poster "knows that for sure". That is neither an assumption nor iz is insulting. If it's true.

BlameSerena
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:25 AM
Hmm so many things about this thread.

First of all someone mentioned that Agassi had said some things about Serena Williams. I am not aware of this and a google search revealed nothing.
I am interested to know if this indeed happened. (I have been following tennis for a long time and haven't heard of this)

Secondly, people who are judging Agassi. As Jesus said "let him who is without sin, cast the first stone".
There is no perfect person, it doesn't matter who you are. Look at Tiger Woods.
Agassi has done a lot of good and he has used and continues to use his wealth and influence to help and motivate the lives of underprivileged youth. That is more than can be said for A LOT of posters here.


Yeah I mentioned that, and he did. It's not exactly a secret either. There are links to what he said posted in other threads if you care to search, and mind you this isn't the first time he's had grumblings about Serena. I'm sure you can imagine the outrage of Agassi of all people having the nerve to condemn Serena :tape:. In that regard Agassi has lost a lot of support, but there are Serena fans who still support him (not me):shrug:.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:25 AM
Apparently the poster "knows that for sure". That is neither an assumption nor iz is insulting. If it's true.

lol Denise loves Serena, and I've never seen anything about that love being because they are black ^_^

I think it's bad to assume things about people you don't know well enough, especially to state something like that :p

G1Player2
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:27 AM
Ok #1, one of my best friends is a huge WS fan and he's black and he likes them because they are black. That's not the only reason, but a big reason why. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this and discussing it. Plenty of people like Amelie because she's openly gay etc (I have to admit I have respect for her because of this). I have discussed with him time and time again about how he's concerned there won't be anymore black women to support after the sisters are gone, and sometimes I think it greatly bothers him. Yet, he does find other players he likes, but he wouldn't say no if you asked him if he liked the WS a lot because of the fact that they are black.

Also, I've met plenty of black people who openly stated they voted for Obama because he was black. I'm white and i campaigned for him, love the man, but still there is nothing racist or wrong with pointing things like this out. Plenty of women voted for Hilary because she was a woman, things like this just happen. It doesn't make someone evil for pointing out the obvious.

This however,



I very much disagree with, and think it's quite insulting to assume things about someone you don't even know.

:rolleyes: Blacks are not a monolith. And, yes, there are many blacks that might support Venus and Serena, and even if they do support them because they may be black, there are a plethora of other reasons why we support them. There are plenty of other black players on tour like Shenay Perry, Jamea Jackson, Angela Haynes, etc., that many blacks on this board and other places may respect but not be a fan of. I mean, I guess you can try to argue that they aren't superstars, or have the talent that the WS have, but even if they did, and out of nowhere started winning titles and challenging in slams, I guarantee you that the people who supported the WS before would still root for them against these players everytime they face off.

And, again, blacks may have voted for Obama because he was black, but that certainly was not the only reason, or even the main reason. He happens to be a liberal democrat, and most blacks associate themselves with the democratic party and alot of minorities agree with his policies. I mean, look at Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes who are black politicians. Do you really think most blacks would have supported them if they ran for president? Not a chance.

G1Player2
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:31 AM
Thriller would be one i could think of off the top of my head ^_^

How is he a troll? I don't get it. But, whatever. I don't see how anyone whose a diehard fan of a player, or a fan of a player in general, could be considered a troll on this board. :shrug: Because most of the fans of players on this board normally post in threads about their faves or posts about their faves, or situations that involve or may potentially involve their fave. :shrug: thriller normally talks about and defends Serena. I don't see him running around in Sharapova, or Jankovic's threads, or whoever it may be, and flaming the thread and attacking them.

The real trolls are the ones who don't really have any faves, or their faves suck or are retired, yet they still run and scatter around inflaming the threads of players they dislike with really nothing objective or interesting to add to the discussion.

Matt01, sammy01, dsanders, are all examples of this.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:35 AM
:rolleyes: Blacks are not a monolith. And, yes, there are many blacks that might support Venus and Serena, and even if they do support them because they may be black, there are a plethora of other reasons why we support them. There are plenty of other black players on tour like Shenay Perry, Jamea Jackson, Angela Haynes, etc., that many blacks on this board and other places may respect but not be a fan of. I mean, I guess you can try to argue that they aren't superstars, or have the talent that the WS have, but even if they did, and out of nowhere started winning titles and challenging in slams, I guarantee you that the people who supported the WS before would still root for them against these players everytime they face off.

And, again, blacks may have voted for Obama because he was black, but that certainly was not the only reason, or even the main reason. He happens to be a liberal democrat, and most blacks associate themselves with the democratic party and alot of minorities agree with his policies. I mean, look at Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes who are black politicians. Do you really think most blacks would have supported them if they ran for president? Not a chance.

See the problem is, you guys are taking these things the wrong way. I'm not saying the only reason someone likes the WS is because they are black or the only reason some people voted for the President is because he's black. It's not the only reason at all, but is it a big reason for some people? Yes

Also, Hilary happens to be a liberal democrat as well and she got pulverized in the Potomac states, where there's the highest population of black voters. This wasn't just because they all liked Obama's policies more (wasn't much of a different between the two) it was because a black man had a chance to win and they wanted to see that happen. There's nothing wrong with this at all. Yet when someone pulls in 90%+ of the black vote, there's going to be people and a lot of people, who voted for him because he was black.

G1Player2
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:37 AM
See the problem is, you guys are taking these things the wrong way. I'm not saying the only reason someone likes the WS is because they are black or the only reason some people voted for the President is because he's black. It's not the only reason at all, but is it a big reason for some people? Yes

Also, Hilary happens to be a liberal democrat as well and she got pulverized in the Potomac states, where there's the highest population of black voters. This wasn't just because they all liked Obama's policies more (wasn't much of a different between the two) it was because a black man had a chance to win and they wanted to see that happen. There's nothing wrong with this at all. Yet when someone pulls in 90%+ of the black vote, there's going to be people and a lot of people who voted for him because he was black.

Hillary Clinton was WAY ahead in the polls amongst black voters at the start of the primaries. Obama was able to turn it around with a great team and an effective campaign run. Could it be because Hillary Clinton ran a bad campaign, and often alienated these black voters that could have had alot to do with it? :rolleyes:

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:38 AM
How is he a troll? I don't get it. But, whatever. I don't see how anyone whose a diehard fan of a player, or a fan of a player in general, could be considered a troll on this board. :shrug: Because most of the fans of players on this board normally post in threads about their faves or posts about their faves, or situations that involve or may potentially involve their fave. :shrug: thriller normally talks about and defends Serena. I don't see him running around in Sharapova, or Jankovic's threads, or whoever it may be, and flaming the thread and attacking them.

The real trolls are the ones who don't really have any faves, or their faves suck or are retired, yet they still run and scatter around inflaming the threads of players they dislike with really nothing objective or interesting to add to the discussion.

Matt01, sammy01, dsanders, are all examples of this.

He doesn't contribute, he just insults, and does it frequently, even when the said player he/she is insulting isn't even the topic of the thread.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:41 AM
Hillary Clinton was WAY ahead in the polls amongst black voters at the start of the primaries. Obama was able to turn it around with a great team and an effective campaign run. Could it be because Hillary Clinton ran a bad campaign, and often alienated these black voters that could have had alot to do with it? :rolleyes:

Well yes, obviously that was a deciding factor. We owned the Clinton team on the ground, and i can tell you this from experience, so yes that was a big factor as well. Particularly in the caucuses.

I think she was ahead because a lot of black voters were skeptical, probably almost thought it was too good to be true that Obama had a chance, obviously we know differently now :)

friendsita
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:46 AM
Nice, Ita.

Donny
Dec 3rd, 2009, 12:56 AM
Thirdly, I know African-Americans who are fans of players because they are black. It is not racist to observe this. Just like this past US Presidential election had the highest African American turnout due to the president being half-black. There are people who are happy to see someone like them achieving and being at the top of their respective fields. This is not uncommon in underrepresented groups.

I am sure there are posters on this forum that like the William sisters, and some other black players because they are black. It may not be the only reason why, but it plays a part.
Just like there are players that like Momo because she is gay. It is the self-identification of under-represented groups.

I do not feel it is racist to point that out.

I know for sure Denise would not be a WS fan if they were white lol.

I feel obligated to correct this, like I do every single time someone posts this.

The presidential candidate to receive the largest percentage of the African American vote was Lyndon Johnson (a white guy, if you couldn't tell from picture) in 1964, soon after he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. he got close to 97% of the vote, a bit higher than Obama did. Black turnout was also near historical highs, despite that being the first presidential in which most African Americans could vote, and many being in literal fear for their lives at the polls. So in other words... you're wrong.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:04 AM
I feel obligated to correct this, like I do every single time someone posts this.

The presidential candidate to receive the largest percentage of the African American vote was Lyndon Johnson (a white guy, if you couldn't tell from picture) in 1964, soon after he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. he got close to 97% of the vote, a bit higher than Obama did. Black turnout was also near historical highs, despite that being the first presidential in which most African Americans could vote, and many being in literal fear for their lives at the polls. So in other words... you're wrong.

That's a very good point, but a higher percentage of people voted overall back then than they do now. Also, the civil rights bill was a huge act and Johnson did a lot for the black community in terms of his fight against poverty, so it's not shocking.

Also, 95% of black voters went for Obama vs. 94% for Johnson (black vote was smaller in the 60's though)

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:33 AM
And if only your posts were as bright as a 1 watt lightbulb, that MIGHT be an improvement.

Hi! :D

:spit: :haha:

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:37 AM
What do the race of the students have to with anything? To point out that Agassi has black friends? you and *JR* should hang out.

:lol::lol:

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:38 AM
The demographics only matter to show all of Andre's detractors in this thread who also happen to be Serena fans that you are hypocrites. You stand up for Serena in most cases because she is Black, yet you'd sooner throw Andre under a bus despite all the good he has done for children, the majority of which happen to be African-American.

No wonder you are fans of Serena. She is as shallow as most of you are.

OMG :help: LDV is in serious need of help. :lol:

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:41 AM
I don't know if that can be classified as racism, it's a difference to discriminate against someones over race but it's not racist to call someone out on supporting someone just because they're of the same race.

How old are you, Arni?

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:43 AM
How old are you, Arni?

How is that racism? There is a difference. I'm just calling it like I see them.

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:44 AM
I know for sure Denise would not be a WS fan if they were white lol.

That's a joke, right Dunlop?

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:50 AM
Wow. Just WOW!! I can't believe that someone would seriously write something like this and feel justified or even satisfied with this sort of logic.
And here I said that I would leave the thread. But I guess that's what happens when my curiosity gets the better of me. Anyway, after reading your post Dunlop1, I was more than compelled to address several misconceptions, that hopefully turn out to be misunderstandings on my part.

It is a fact that Andre Agassi did make unwarranted disparaging comments about Serena (and Venus) "several" times. And since Serena fans are the ones who follow her, we should know. As for not being able to locate text on his comments about Serena (and Venus), how does that negate the very fact that these disparaging statements were made? I don't get the logic here.
Some of the most intelligent posters on this entire board are Serena fans, and yet we get shat on and group as ignorant, lying, race-card-playing posters.
I find the thinly veiled insinuation more despicable than if you were to have come straight out and overtly proclaim that we're all ignorant, blind, racist, followers.

I, as a Serena supporter, have also been a follower and supporter of Andre Agassi for my own particular reasons. Much of it having to do with the fact that he's accomplished something very difficult; which was to turn his life completely around and become a near-model athlete. His latter years have been more or less exemplary and, again, a near-model of how I believe a great champion should behave and lead. Aside from his nasty, snide, and unnecessary comments about the sisters, I give him high marks for his charity work (which Serena has also helped with and participated in, by the way).

As for the criticism of Andre Agassi by some posters...
By your own admission, no one is perfect, and Agassi isn't beyond reproach or criticism when he makes his own mistakes; as he did when he levied criticism upon others, while he himself lied to the public for untold years. Fact is, he screwed up on MANY levels and people have the right to criticize a public figure such as Agassi.

This particular part really had me frothing, and here's why...

I am multi-ethnic man, but align more with my African-American side, I take great umbrage to being defined by someone who knows absolutely nothing about me and why I’m a fan. But I’ll leave it at that since I’m far too angry to expound on how pompous, pretentious, and discriminatory, your post is.
Aside from us Black posters, there are white posters here who are even more supportive of the sisters than you might believe. Yet, if I’m reading the context of your post correctly, these folks are perfectly fine in their fanship of the sisters, solely because they are White.
What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of the sisters? What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of their own countrymen and women?

Also, are you suggesting that White people are not extremely biased against the sisters because they are Black?!
Or how about Whites supporting White players because they are White?
As a Back man whose academic and work environment has been dominated by mostly White people, I can tell you for a fact that White people definitely support one another because they :
1) Can relate to each other culturally,
2) Trust each other,
3) Are completely ignorant of anything outside their own “ethnicity”,
4) or simply don’t care enough about other "races", or find other “races” important enough to give a shit about.

So in essence, I can therefore surmise that you are elevating all other ethnic groups above the Black supporters of the sisters based upon the wrongheaded supposition that we support their Blackness first and foremost.
That, I'm sad to say, is a very bigoted way of thinking, and is why I'm so livid.

Oh, and by the way, your supporting text concerning Barack Obama receiving support because of his being “partially” Black only serves to emphasize the ignorance of your argument. I’d also say that it’s a bit of a leap since so many elements factored in to why many Blacks supported and voted for him.
Moreover, it is a fact that Black voters are the most color-blind of all other ethnic groups. http://www.jsonline.com/news/president/34490274.html
I certainly hope that you take the time to read the linked article.

How about liking and supporting them because they represent the best that tennis has to offer?
How about posters liking and supporting them because they find them easier to relate to and possess similar beliefs and ideologies?
How about liking them because of their indomitable spirit and tenacious will and drive?
Why is it that non-Blacks come on this board and talk about Blacks as if we’re a science project that they have uncovered the secrets of our existence?
Why not speak on they things you know to be facts concerning your own “race”, and ASK us about ours; rather than assume the worst?
It just boggles the mind how so many non-Blacks can make so many erroneous and superior statements and feel pride in doing so. That is something that I will NEVER understand.

I do not feel it is racist to point that out.
Of course you don't, because you feel justifiably superior in your beliefs, right? And allow me to point out that the most heinous of racists throughout history felt the same as you. So you may want to revisit that particular part of your philosophy.

And now you not only know how Black people in general think and feel, but how one particular Black female poster does.

I'm sorry but you have exposed yourself to be the very epitome of the type of individual that Black people have had problems with throughout American history. Through your own stated beliefs here in this very post, you have expressed very racist ideology by generalizing an entire ethnic group (not once ever mentioning any other groups), and then categorizing a single female within that group for added measure.
This is my own personal belief, after having read your post several times, but you are exactly what many of the Black posters complain about on this board. But then somehow, I get the impression that you may find such a distinction complimentary.

OMG this is the best post ever written in all of the years I've been on this message board. :worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:57 AM
See the problem is, you guys are taking these things the wrong way.

This is really the only part of your post I have a problem with.

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 01:59 AM
I feel obligated to correct this, like I do every single time someone posts this.

The presidential candidate to receive the largest percentage of the African American vote was Lyndon Johnson (a white guy, if you couldn't tell from picture) in 1964, soon after he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. he got close to 97% of the vote, a bit higher than Obama did. Black turnout was also near historical highs, despite that being the first presidential in which most African Americans could vote, and many being in literal fear for their lives at the polls. So in other words... you're wrong.

:lol::lol::lol: I love it everytime you make this correction, too. :lol:

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:03 AM
That's a very good point, but a higher percentage of people voted overall back then than they do now. Also, the civil rights bill was a huge act and Johnson did a lot for the black community in terms of his fight against poverty, so it's not shocking.

Also, 95% of black voters went for Obama vs. 94% for Johnson (black vote was smaller in the 60's though)

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:06 AM
I don't understand what you're saying here.

It's hard to compare voter % from the 50's and 60's, (really even the 80's almost) to now, because more people voted over all back then.

However, I think Johnson's % of the black vote in the 60's was very impressive given the size that voting block was at the time.

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:15 AM
It's hard to compare voter % from the 50's and 60's, (really even the 80's almost) to now, because more people voted over all back then.

However, I think Johnson's % of the black vote in the 60's was very impressive given the size that voting block was at the time.

Oh I see. You're trying to invalidate the fact that he got higher percentage of the black vote than Obama, saying that it's hard to compare voter percentage from the 60's with now. And, where did you read that more people voted over all back then? Because blacks could not. Do you remember Jim Crow and poll taxes and literacy tests and the land-ownership requirement to vote?

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:18 AM
Oh I see. You're trying to invalidate the fact that he got higher percentage of the black vote than Obama, saying that it's hard to compare voter percentage from the 60's with now. And, where did you read that more people voted over all back then? Because blacks could not. Do you remember Jim Crow and poll taxes and literacy tests and the land-ownership requirement to vote?

I'm not talking about just black voters, it's well known that the % of Americans who voted then is lower now than it was in the 60's.

I'm not trying to invalidate Johnson's numbers, just saying it's kind of hard to compare that to the situation in 2008.

RVD
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:28 AM
Ok #1, one of my best friends is a huge WS fan and he's black and he likes them because they are black. That's not the only reason, but a big reason why. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this and discussing it. Plenty of people like Amelie because she's openly gay etc (I have to admit I have respect for her because of this). I have discussed with him time and time again about how he's concerned there won't be anymore black women to support after the sisters are gone, and sometimes I think it greatly bothers him. Yet, he does find other players he likes, but he wouldn't say no if you asked him if he liked the WS a lot because of the fact that they are black.

Also, I've met plenty of black people who openly stated they voted for Obama because he was black. I'm white and i campaigned for him, love the man, but still there is nothing racist or wrong with pointing things like this out. Plenty of women voted for Hilary because she was a woman, things like this just happen. It doesn't make someone evil for pointing out the obvious.

This however,



I very much disagree with, and think it's quite insulting to assume things about someone you don't even know.And I suppose that since you as a White man say it's so, then it must be so, correct? But ya see, this is the very attitude that most Blacks detest. All of the generalizations are quite fine when Whites make them, but let a Black man suggest the same, and he's playing the race card.

Am I to understand that your 1 Black friend represents me?
Or maybe you're suggesting that he represents the majority o the Black tennis fans?
What is it that you're trying to say, exactly? That you KNOW Black people due to the fact you have 1 Black friend?
The fact that you have no idea proves to me that so-called friend is most likely an acquaintance at best...who you never once questioned on this topic.

Nice try though.

I won't get into a political discussion on the GM side, but please go visit the political sub-forum and make this statement. I guarantee that you will leave with an entire different perspective on Blacks voting for Barack simply because he's Black. Oh, and this has been discussed to ad infinatum over there, so you will glean quite a bit of info.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that there arn't a scant minority that do vote for hi based on "race". Because ALL "races" do this.
What I'm saying is that it's ridiculous to suggest this of the AA community in general.
Do you see the difference?

You obviously didn't access the link I provided nor read it in it's entirety, or you wouldn't have posted this.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:39 AM
And I suppose that since you as a White man say it's so, then it must be so, correct? But ya see, this is the very attitude that most Blacks detest. All of the generalizations are quite fine when Whites make them, but let a Black man suggest the same, and he's playing the race card.

Am I to understand that your 1 Black friend represents me?
Or maybe you're suggesting that he represents the majority o the Black tennis fans?
What is it that you're trying to say, exactly? That you KNOW Black people due to the fact you have 1 Black friend?
The fact that you have no idea proves to me that so-called friend is most likely an acquaintance at best...who you never once questioned on this topic.

Nice try though.

I won't get into a political discussion on the GM side, but please go visit the political sub-forum and make this statement. I guarantee that you will leave with an entire different perspective on Blacks voting for Barack simply because he's Black. Moreover, I'm not suggesting that there are a scant minority that do vote for him. What I'm saying is that it's ridiculous to suggest this of the AA community in general.
Do you see the difference?

You obviously didn't access the link I provided nor read it in it's entirety, or you wouldn't have posted this.

He's actually one of my best friends. Just because I say that some black people are fans of the WS just because they are black does not mean that some white people don't do the same thing. To stick your head in the sand like a ostrich and act like people don't do this is just naive. Also, I forgot that I apparently think I'm right, just because I'm a white man.

I'm not saying my friend represents everyone, I'm just expressing my point of view from my experience, as you are.

In terms of Obama. there are black people who voted for him just because he was black. Not saying that all do, and this is the point you are missing: I'm not saying every single black person voted for him because he was black, I'm saying some did.

Also for being one who writes so eloquently, you resort to assumptions and insults quickly, it lessens your work.

RVD
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:45 AM
He's actually one of my best friends. Just because I say that some black people are fans of the WS just because they are black does not mean that some white people don't do the same thing. To stick your head in the sand like a ostrich and act like people don't do this is just naive. Also, I forgot that I apparently think I'm right, just because I'm a white man.

I'm not saying my friend represents everyone, I'm just expressing my point of view from my experience, as you are.

In terms of Obama. there are black people who voted for him just because he was black. Not saying that all do, and this is the point you are missing: I'm not saying every single black person voted for him because he was black, I'm saying some did.

Also for being one who writes so eloquently, you resort to assumptions and insults quickly, it lessens your work.So then you essentially agree with me and what I posted in response to Dunlop1's reply. :shrug:
It's sorta odd that you addressed my post to begin with, but whatever.

We're all good. :)

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 02:53 AM
So then you essentially agree with me and what I posted in response to Dunlop1's reply. :shrug:
It's sorta odd that you addressed my post to begin with, but whatever.

We're all good. :)

I do agree to an extent, but I do highly agree with you on the obvious notion that all races do it.

The African American community should not be selected out of the others for it, but I see no reason not to acknowledge it when it occurs with any race.

RVD
Dec 3rd, 2009, 03:00 AM
I do agree to an extent, but I do highly agree with you on the obvious notion that all races do it.

The African American community should not be selected out of the others for it, but I see no reason not to acknowledge it when it occurs with any race.Again, we agree.
And again, I don't understand why you originally addressed my post on this topic since we do in fact agree.

But let me be very clear...
I, nor any post that I've rea thus afr, has ever once suggested that a scant minority of Black voters did not vote for Barack because he's black.
It’s when people suggest this of the AA community in general, is when I have to set the record straight. So I don't understand the confusion.

Arnian
Dec 3rd, 2009, 03:05 AM
I never quoted you ^_^, I was stating my opinion in the general discussion.

Njay16
Dec 3rd, 2009, 03:10 AM
If you read the first page and last page of this thread, it's amazing how much the discussion changes :tape:

Dunlop1
Dec 3rd, 2009, 05:23 AM
It is a fact that Andre Agassi did make unwarranted disparaging comments about Serena (and Venus) "several" times. And since Serena fans are the ones who follow her, we should know. As for not being able to locate text on his comments about Serena (and Venus), how does that negate the very fact that these disparaging statements were made? I don't get the logic here.

Some of the most intelligent posters on this entire board are Serena fans, and yet we get shat on and grouped as an ignorant, lying, race-card-playing posters.
I find the thinly veiled insinuation more despicable than if you were to have come straight out and overtly proclaim that we're all ignorant, blind, racist, followers.

This particular part really had me frothing, and here's why...

I am a multi-ethnic man, but align more with my African-American side, I take great umbrage to being defined by someone who knows absolutely nothing about me and why I’m a fan. But I’ll leave it at that since I’m far too angry to expound on how pompous, pretentious, and discriminatory, your post is.
Aside from us Black posters, there are white posters here who are even more supportive of the sisters than you might believe. Yet, if I’m reading the context of your post correctly, these folks are perfectly fine in their fanship of the sisters, solely because they are White.
What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of the sisters? What about Mexican, Asian, or Indian fans of their own countrymen and women?

Also, are you suggesting that White people are not extremely biased against the sisters because they are Black?!
Or how about Whites supporting White players because they are White?
As a Black man whose academic and work environment has been dominated by mostly White people, I can tell you for a fact that White people definitely support one another because they :
1) Can relate to each other culturally,
2) Trust each other,
3) Are completely ignorant of anything outside their own “ethnicity”,
4) or simply don’t care enough about other "races", or find other “races” important enough to give a shit about.

So in essence, I can therefore surmise that you are elevating all other ethnic groups above the Black supporters of the sisters based upon the wrongheaded supposition that we support their Blackness first and foremost.
That, I'm sad to say, is a very bigoted way of thinking, and is why I'm so livid.


RVD, My post that you replied to can be briefly summarised to 3 points:

- What did Agassi say about Serena?
- Do not judge Agassi based on mistakes he made years ago. We all make mistakes.
- It is not racist to say that SOME blacks support black players partially or solely because they are black.

Anything else that you read out of it (which was a whole lot), is a gross misunderstanding of my post.

I'm willing to have a discussion on race in America, but that's not what my post was about.

My comment about Denise was tongue in cheek, hence the 'lol' at the end. I don't even 100% know Denise's ethnicity.

Denise4925
Dec 3rd, 2009, 03:15 PM
My comment about Denise was tongue in cheek, hence the 'lol' at the end. I don't even 100% know Denise's ethnicity.

I was hoping this. :)

The Witch-king
Dec 3rd, 2009, 04:30 PM
He doesn't contribute, he just insults, and does it frequently, even when the said player he/she is insulting isn't even the topic of the thread.

thriller999 is so funny. even when i don't necessarily agree with the posts, i always find myself laughing.