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View Full Version : Womens Tennis - Is It So Hard To Believe Cheating Goes On?


sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Ok watching Caro just makes me think she has at least exaggerated her injury, if not flat out lied about it and its seriousness. I personally cant see how she can put her full weight on it striking tennis balls if it's as bad as made out?

This thread is not about Caro in particular (though it is her 'injury' that got me thinking), just that many posters on this board just will not accept that these girls do on occasion cheat, lie and push the rules. Every sport has it share of cheats, recent outings of rugby players deliberately fanking injuries with blood packets and a F1 driver deliberately crashing his car, just goes to show how far some already go in other sports. Yet there are many that still wont admit bartoli takes tactically deliberate time outs, for so called 'injuries'.

I honestly find it harder to believe the WTA is as 'white as white' as some would have you believe, than to believe certain players bend the rules and inturn cheat. With all the money on the line and the huge points, would it not be simpley nieve to think that some players don't on occasion 'cheat'.

To show im not biased i think chakvetadze did just this at wimbledon this year, she took a medical timeout in the 3rd set of her match with lisicki. To me i really don't think her arm warranted a timeout, but having lead and served for the match in the 2nd set and then going down a break in the 3rd, i feel she both took the timeout to try and calm herself and to use something to blame. Some may say she was just using the rules to her advantage or that she was genuinely injured, but in a sport so big and with so much on the line im willing to admit that cheating and rule bending goes on, are you?

Slutiana
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:14 PM
:scared: The Caro fans are coming....


And yes I agree, of course people do that. :lol: :cough: MJMS, Juju, Marion.

YiDi
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:17 PM
erm .... no, its not hard. I Want to Believe.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:19 PM
:scared: The Caro fans are coming....


And yes I agree, of course people do that. :lol: :cough: MJMS, Juju, Marion.


it was not directed at caro or her fans, but i think she has deffiantely bent the rules.

it just gets to me that poster on here put players on pedastals, when like us normal people they are swayed by money, winning ect to do things that morally we know ourselves are not right.

delicatecutter
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:22 PM
It is not surprising. I shudder what to think what would happen if these girls called their own lines. :rolls:

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:26 PM
It is not surprising. I shudder what to think what would happen if these girls called their own lines. :rolls:

you should see some of the local junior tournaments where they call their own lines, then the parents get involved and it can get ugly :help:

Miss Atomic Bomb
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:30 PM
I was saying that yesterday in the livescoring thread. It was pretty obvious that Caro wasn't injured by the way she was stepping into the ball and transfering her weight; also her movement looks pretty fine.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:35 PM
I was saying that yesterday in the livescoring thread. It was pretty obvious that Caro wasn't injured by the way she was stepping into the ball and transfering her weight; also her movement looks pretty fine.

yep, It's the fact that shes pivitting (sp?) on the leg so easily, plus it's the one she lands on after serving. i just cant imagine anyone with a hamstring strain being able to do that.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:44 PM
it may and probably does...BUT i think what we have to be aware of is the parents over exaggerating injuries as in caro's case (since that is the first you mentioned)...i think caro probably felt tightness in the leg and it probably needs stretching....her father calls it something more extravagent than it is...yesterday to begin she wasn't moving well and was being cautious, but i think as the muscle itself warmed up it was fine...

in other cases i think there's a tendency to not believe that players are injured unless they are hobbling around on crutches, in wheel chairs or bed ridden....

with regards to timeouts...yes players do use them to psych out opponents...i think bartoli is guilty of it, elena does it and i've seen maria do it as recently as that us open match with oudin...since it's not against the rules, and you can't say for sure a player isn't injured, umpires are only left with the option of controlling when players take them (only before your serve etc)...

players also have to becareful because taking those timeouts can work against you :lol: sometimes you may give your opponent the extra time they needed to catch their breath, time to calm down and strategise etc...

miffedmax
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Lena is all sweetness and light and cuddly adorableness, aside from her trimming her bangs.

The rest of them are cheating skanks, even the other ones I like.

Slutiana
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:46 PM
it was not directed at caro or her fans, but i think she has deffiantely bent the rules.

it just gets to me that poster on here put players on pedastals, when like us normal people they are swayed by money, winning ect to do things that morally we know ourselves are not right.
Yeah, I know, but they'll come...

And yeah I know x2 :p, people on here are in denial about A LOT of things.

MaBaker
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:48 PM
:scared: The Caro fans are coming....

All 3 of them ?

John.
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Yip - I agree. Lots of players are guilty of it now. Not just injury timeouts, but looking at their player boxes, bathroom breaks. It's farcical at times

tenn_ace
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:52 PM
All 3 of them ?


:haha: :yeah:

Dodoboy.
Oct 29th, 2009, 03:53 PM
All 3 of them ?

We're on Caro, not Sanowa, sweetie :kiss:

LeonHart
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Caro withdrew from Luxembourg the same reason Serena would withdraw from regular WTA events, they're small and meaningless. Even the smallest sign of discomfort is not worth playing in these small tournaments. However when you get to the grand slam stage, or WTA championships, that's when you gotta give it your 110% which is what Caro is doing. So get over it peoples :rolleyes:

tenn_ace
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Caro withdrew from Luxembourg the same reason Serena would withdraw from regular WTA events, they're small and meaningless. Even the smallest sign of discomfort is not worth playing in these small tournaments. However when you get to the grand slam stage, or WTA championships, that's when you gotta give it your 110% which is what Caro is doing. So get over it peoples :rolleyes:



not what her dear daddy advertise on TV abd in the media :wavey:

colt13
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Lena is all sweetness and light and cuddly adorableness, aside from her trimming her bangs.

The rest of them are cheating skanks, even the other ones I like.

I love Lena too, but 99 out of 100 times, we know the bathroom break is coming after the first set.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Caro withdrew from Luxembourg the same reason Serena would withdraw from regular WTA events, they're small and meaningless. Even the smallest sign of discomfort is not worth playing in these small tournaments. However when you get to the grand slam stage, or WTA championships, that's when you gotta give it your 110% which is what Caro is doing. So get over it peoples :rolleyes:

what you've basically just said is they have no respect for the smaller tournaments :help:

LeonHart
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:12 PM
what you've basically just said is they have no respect for the smaller tournaments :help:

Yes, that's how all the top players view these tournaments minus maybe Kim. But Kim still lost early at Luxembourg she she obviously didn't take it as seriously as she did at the US Open.

Mikey.
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:15 PM
All 3 of them ?

:crying2:

Patrick345
Oct 29th, 2009, 04:16 PM
yep, It's the fact that shes pivitting (sp?) on the leg so easily, plus it's the one she lands on after serving. i just cant imagine anyone with a hamstring strain being able to do that.

No you just can´t see that she is clearly injured, and not moving like usual. She is just playing back to back three hours matches on a bum leg. :lol:

Shvedbarilescu
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:25 PM
what you've basically just said is they have no respect for the smaller tournaments :help:

You, of all people, are hardly in a position to criticise others for a lack of respect for smaller tournaments. :rolleyes:

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:31 PM
You, of all people, are hardly in a position to criticise others for a lack of respect for smaller tournaments. :rolleyes:

do i play on the WTA tour? :rolleyes:

and lol you were exactly one of the posters i was thinking of, you lick every players ass :help:

Ferg
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Of course it goes on, i think its pretty well accepted now that the majority of medical time outs these days are used tactically and the entire situation with the rules about them has gotten out of control. Players use it to their advantage the whole time.

Aaric
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:39 PM
:scared: The Caro fans are coming....


And yes I agree, of course people do that. :lol: :cough: MJMS, Juju, Marion.

:spit:

Volcana
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Injuries hurt more when you're losing. When you're sure you can't win, they hurt a lot more.

Alex03Maccy
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:55 PM
sanowa has that many fans?!

PLP
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Caro withdrew from Luxembourg the same reason Serena would withdraw from regular WTA events, they're small and meaningless. Even the smallest sign of discomfort is not worth playing in these small tournaments. However when you get to the grand slam stage, or WTA championships, that's when you gotta give it your 110% which is what Caro is doing. So get over it peoples :rolleyes:

100% agree.

Though I would also add that there is NO way of knowing what someone else is feeling. When it comes to injury, a player might be moving beautifully, but have pain throughout the entire match.

This doesn't make Caro a liar. :lol:
Plus it was her dad's comments.

Volcana
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Caro withdrew from Luxembourg the same reason Serena would withdraw from regular WTA events, they're small and meaningless. Even the smallest sign of discomfort is not worth playing in these small tournaments.I disagree. These layers didn't become elite tennis players in a vacuum. They're families are fans. They're friends are fans. They were fans before they were pros. They idolized pros who came before them. And they're heard their family, and friends, and heros using the words 'tank' and 'quitter' with the same distain we do now.


Yes, the players have priorities. But the Luxembourg's of the tennis world are not 'small and meaningless', and the players don't treat them that way. Nobody wins every week. Not anymore. This isn't a tour where Nav or Ever or Graf can win tournament with their 'C+' game. These days, Rank #50's A can beat Rank #3's C+ game. ANd if you look across alll sports, you see the same thing. Tiger Woods lost a major on the final hole to a 37 year old guy who had previous won one PGA tournament. Woods was a little off. That's all it took.


In 2007, #5 ranked Michigan played Division I-AA Appalachian State. And lost. That's the equivalent of Justine Henin losing to an ITF player at a major. Things like that. Do. Not. Happen. But now they do.


But on top of all that, look at my previous post. That wasn't a joke. I've been through it myself, and I have personally spoke to hundred of other athletes who say the same thing, and heard plenty of pros say it.


Injuries hurt more when you're losing.

Martian Jeza
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:22 PM
sammy, you are a great Chakvetadze fan but here guy you are completly losing it ! I know who you point out by this thread : Caroline Wozniacki and I know you hate her. Only fakers cheat, not people who are in true pain. At the end, Caroline was "grunting" : which is totaly unusual at her side as she's not a grunter at all. Your thread is of a very low level there.

sunsfuns
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:29 PM
I disagree. These layers didn't become elite tennis players in a vacuum. They're families are fans. They're friends are fans. They were fans before they were pros. They idolized pros who came before them. And they're heard their family, and friends, and heros using the words 'tank' and 'quitter' with the same distain we do now.
Yes, the players have priorities. But the Luxembourg's of the tennis world are not 'small and meaningless', and the players don't treat them that way. Nobody wins every week. Not anymore. This isn't a tour where Nav or Ever or Graf can win tournament with their 'C+' game. These days, Rank #50's A can beat Rank #3's C+ game. ANd if you look across alll sports, you see the same thing. Tiger Woods lost a major on the final hole to a 37 year old guy who had previous won one PGA tournament. Woods was a little off. That's all it took..
Not every week, but very close to it. Just look at Roger's record mere 3-4 years ago. I firmly believe that it will happen on WTA tour as well some time during the next 10-20 years.

AndreConrad
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:31 PM
I know Sammy says that this thread is not against Caroline. Well, I still have couple of questions:
1. How did Caroline benefit from her "cheating"?
2. In general every sport has their cheaters that include even olympic champions sometimes stripped from their titles as a result. If this thread is not about Caroline or anyone specific what makes it worthy to discuss? It is like "discovering" that professional players get injured in every sport :shrug:

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:32 PM
sammy, you are a great Chakvetadze fan but here guy you are completly losing it ! I know who you point out by this thread : Caroline Wozniacki and I know you hate her. Only fakers cheat, not people who are in true pain. At the end, Caroline was "grunting" : which is totaly unusual at her side as she's not a grunter at all. Your thread is of a very low level there.

this thread was posted ages before her cramps, and was about her 'hamstring' injury. as i said it was one of many times i think a players has pulled the wool over the WTA's eyes.

you're obviously a caro fan and im a chakvetadze fan but im not stupid or blinded to think chak doesn't on occasion push or bend the rules. yes i love chak but i can admit that, it seems many posters on this board really cant stand the thought of his/her fave not being an angle, when afterall they are human and theres a lot on the line.

i want to add asking coaches if a player should challenge is also cheating and are you telling me players don't do that?

Martian Jeza
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:33 PM
I know Sammy says that this thread is not against Caroline. Well, I still have couple of questions:
1. How did Caroline benefit from her "cheating"?
2. In general every sport has their cheaters that include even olympic champions sometimes stripped from their titles as a result. If this thread is not about Caroline or anyone specific what makes it worthy to discuss? It is like "discovering" that professional players get injured in every sport :shrug:


A pure coincidence this thread got written just after Caroline's win, I would say... :lol:

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:36 PM
I know Sammy says that this thread is not against Caroline. Well, I still have couple of questions:
1. How did Caroline benefit from her "cheating"?
2. In general every sport has their cheaters that include even olympic champions sometimes stripped from their titles as a result. If this thread is not about Caroline or anyone specific what makes it worthy to discuss? It is like "discovering" that professional players get injured in every sport :shrug:

by being rested for a bigger tournament when she had committed to a smaller one, that tickets had been sold on her being there.

see my post above, this thread is about WTA and how posters on this board seem to have trouble admitting tennis has its rule benders like every sport.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:37 PM
A pure coincidence this thread got written just after Caroline's win, I would say... :lol:

it wasn't it was posted after the 1st set, caro hadn't won the match, nor had she started cramping, which i haven't disputed.

Martian Jeza
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:38 PM
this thread was posted ages before her cramps, and was about her 'hamstring' injury. as i said it was one of many times i think a players has pulled the wool over the WTA's eyes.

you're obviously a caro fan and im a chakvetadze fan but im not stupid or blinded to think chak doesn't on occasion push or bend the rules. yes i love chak but i can admit that, it seems many posters on this board really cant stand the thought of his/her fave not being an angle, when afterall they are human and theres a lot on the line.

i want to add asking coaches if a player should challenge is also cheating and are you telling me players don't do that?

I got it right your n°1 in crime in your mind is Caroline Wozniacki ! I'm also a Chakvetadze fan if you didn't read my signature correctly but that's another debate. You know the "harmstring" injury came from the journalists ! Not Caroline herself. When it was a THIGHT injury.

Some people should tell me what she did wrong , how did she break the rules blatantly ?

AndreConrad
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:43 PM
by being rested for a bigger tournament when she had committed to a smaller one, that tickets had been sold on her being there.

see my post above, this thread is about WTA and how posters on this board seem to have trouble admitting tennis has its rule benders like every sport.
That is a stretch man; even if we agree that she lied about her injury the most she benefitted is avoiding a fine. She got enough points to get here without cheating. Believing that there is no rule benders in tennis is like believing that storks are responsible for bringing children to the world.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:49 PM
That is a stretch man; even if we agree that she lied about her injury the most she bemefitted is avoiding a fine. She got enough points to get here without cheating. Believing that there is no rule benders in tennis is like believing that storks are responsible for bringing children to the world.

caro's 'injury' is just the tip of the iceberg, theres the abusing of the bathroom rule, asking coaches whether to challenge, coaching from the players box, injury timeouts for suspect injuries and going way over 20 seconds between points.

it has always made me laugh how henin is so easily deemed cheater, for her hand thing yet many players break rules every week and aren't deemed cheaters, i guess we are just accepting of constant time wasting, or asking the players box for advice on challenges even when both are against the rules.

Martian Jeza
Oct 29th, 2009, 06:53 PM
That is a stretch man; even if we agree that she lied about her injury the most she benefitted is avoiding a fine. She got enough points to get here without cheating. Believing that there is no rule benders in tennis is like believing that storks are responsible for bringing children to the world.

You ave NO Proof she lied about her injury ! If you are so sure she did, why don't you start an investigation by yourself ? It costs nothing, you know.

AndreConrad
Oct 29th, 2009, 09:57 PM
You ave NO Proof she lied about her injury ! If you are so sure she did, why don't you start an investigation by yourself ? It costs nothing, you know.
I did not say that I think she lied... I anly said that even if I agreed that she lied the accusation of cheating would be a stretch. At this same time I don't think she did and really I am not really interested if she did :shrug:...

AndreConrad
Oct 29th, 2009, 10:02 PM
caro's 'injury' is just the tip of the iceberg, theres the abusing of the bathroom rule, asking coaches whether to challenge, coaching from the players box, injury timeouts for suspect injuries and going way over 20 seconds between points.

it has always made me laugh how henin is so easily deemed cheater, for her hand thing yet many players break rules every week and aren't deemed cheaters, i guess we are just accepting of constant time wasting, or asking the players box for advice on challenges even when both are against the rules.
I agree, but 1. It doesn't really apply to Caroline and 2. As annoying as it is it is not cheating, it is abuse but not cheating. Rules that you cannot enforce are useless; it is not fault of the players they did not come up with them.

sammy01
Oct 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM
I agree, but 1. It doesn't really apply to Caroline and 2. As annoying as it is it is not cheating, it is abuse but not cheating. Rules that you cannot enforce are useless; it is not fault of the players they did not come up with them.

so you think umpires couldn't give warnings when jj or caro have a conversation with their box to see if they should challenge. or when dani turns her back on the court for 30 seconds every serve?

the rules are there, the punishment is set out, the umpires are just so soft it's sad.

BrianII
Oct 30th, 2009, 12:42 AM
Since the umpires control these situations it really isn't cheating ..gamesmanship maybe but not cheating. If the player is punished for the various things you describe there is nothing they can do its up to the umpires. Have seen Nadal take a full minute between serves with his various antics and half the time his opponent is so out of breath they don't want to complain.
Even henin's bush league tactics at the french was the umpires fault if there is a dispute between players over what happened or didn't happen umpires should not ask either player whether they did or didn't do something ,but consult with their lines people ..we all saw henin raise her hand so definitely one of the lines people saw it too. there is gamesmanship in all sports why would tennis be any different. Its not easy to cheat in tennis, beyond doping, its generally much easier in contact sports and they have doping too.