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Cassius
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:19 AM
Man Beheads Daughter Thinking She Was Raped

Sep 9, 8:34 am ET

TEHRAN (Reuters) - An Iranian man cut off his seven- year-old daughter's head after suspecting she had been raped by her uncle, the Jomhuri-ye Eslami newspaper said on Sunday.
A post-mortem, however, showed the girl was still a virgin.

"The motive behind the killing was to defend my honor, fame, and dignity," the paper quoted the father as saying.

Rape often goes unreported in Iran where the conservative society sees it as bringing shame on the victim and family.

Local people have called for the man, who has been arrested, to be hanged, but under Iran's Islamic law only the father of the victim has the right to demand the death sentence.

The paper said the father, named as Khazir, has three wives.

rated_next
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:26 AM
:eek:

Berlin_Calling
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:27 AM
That is disgusting to hear, I wanna kill that guy myself :fiery:

Jetta
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:35 AM
It is sad that such a mistake happened, but the beheading, that's their culture, unfortunately. :o

Candy946
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:51 AM
Rape often goes unreported in Iran where the conservative society sees it as bringing shame on the victim and family. Local people have called for the man, who has been arrested, to be hanged, but under Iran's Islamic law only the father of the victim has the right to demand the death sentence.
There's something seriously wrong with these people. Why would they even consider that the rape victim would bring shame to herself and to the family. She's only seven for goodness sake! It's not like she asked for it. And I don't understand why the father has the right to demand a death sentence.
:eek: :( :mad: :fiery:

Kiwi_Boy
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:23 AM
:fiery: thats absolutley vile!,even if she was raped i cant see it being her fault!:fiery:

The Vampiress
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:28 AM
:fiery: :eek: That actually makes me want to thow up, They have some serious problems over in that region, The Father should of had some sence in going to a local authority and making the Uncle pay. It shows the Family Values over there arent as strong as they should be :fiery:

Allegra (Raven)

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:30 AM
I dont care if its their culture! Screw their culture! And screw their Islamic Laws! Any law that would let a father behead his own daughter because SHE WAS RAPED is nasty and evil!

That man should be beheaded! I can't understand why those Islamic women dont run for the hills! Those countries ruled by islamic law are no better than slave countries! The women should just slit their husbands throats while they sleep and be done with all of them!

The Vampiress
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:37 AM
If the women do run away from husbands/homes un-attended there are most likley to also get raped/murdered. Their Culture needs some serious renovating.:mad:

Martian KC
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:39 AM
OMG! To imagine his daughter struggling to get freed from his grasp! This is sickening.

Kiwi_Boy
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:39 AM
ummm,may be it's just me but i thought parents were suppost to love their kids,not kill them!:rolleyes: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:43 AM
Hmm that

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:45 AM
hmm thats terrible! I dont know the circumstances behind that man in france so its hard for me to comment on that. But you cannot deny that what that culture is based on is TERRIBLY WRONG! TO wrap up the destruction and mutilation of women as some kind of religious gospel is just plain pathetic!

True is easy to say when youre not in that position but I do know if I were I would leave as soon as possible under any pretence just to escape that evil world.

RayDay
Sep 21st, 2002, 07:31 AM
Disgusting:fiery:

We should be treating women with respect and dignity:)

If u ask me, the father should be draged through the street and beaten like the dog he is:fiery:

A4
Sep 21st, 2002, 08:21 AM
I thought I read somewhere that the local people were calling for the man to be hanged. I don't doubt that over 90% of Iranians are feeling the same disgust being displayed here. This isolated inhuman behaviour has given free rein to people to "bask in the sunshine of their superior culture" and to air views they know to be pretty much ignorant.

I'm all for equality when it comes to men, women and children and basic human rights should be enforced worldwide. However, this can be done without condemning a whole culture and looking down your noses at them and thinking how wonderful you are.

PS I don't know a lot about Islam except what 9/11 exposed us to and a lot of negative press, I might add.

As to the topic, the father will be hanged. There's nowhere in the world this crime can go unpunished.

Candy946
Sep 21st, 2002, 09:14 AM
As to the topic, the father will be hanged. There's nowhere in the world this crime can go unpunished.
True. I believe acts like these should not be tolerated in any religion, but that's just my point of view.

Richie77
Sep 21st, 2002, 09:16 AM
Outrageous and disgusting! :fiery:
Since when does the need for this man's "honor" trump respect for human life? Any man who would do that to his INNOCENT daughter obviously had no honor to begin with.

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by jp


Hum that's easy to say but put yourself in their situation...

And we should be careful with what we say because apparently we can't have an opinion on Islam. There is a popular author in France who might go one year in jail for saying that "Islam is stupid".

Unfortunately that's not only the case in France. Remember Pim Fortuyn? He once said "Islam is a retarted culture"...you know what happened next.

These are very touchy issues, say something bad about islam and everyone shouts 'racist!', 'Hitler!'...

i-girl
Sep 21st, 2002, 09:40 AM
Tine? did someone kidnap you and typed that post under your name:eek: ? that was so not PC! there's hope for you yet;) :D !
seriously, this thing is disgusting, and contrary to what you think, this man will get away with it, because in Iran women are property, and men can do what they want with their "property". yes, there are good things about Islam, and someone rightfully said here that we are only exposed to the extreme sides of Islam, but unfortunatly many many Muslim believers interpate(sp) Islam in this shocking way and that's the way they practice it. I see it in Israel, every day an Arab girl is murdered for shaming "family honor". sometimes it's because she TALKED to a man, or insisted on attending school:rolleyes: . we don't accept it, and the murderers are always prosecuted.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 21st, 2002, 09:41 AM
True is easy to say when youre not in that position but I do know if I were I would leave as soon as possible under any pretence just to escape that evil world.


Though I would think the same thing at times....

It is easy for us to say. We haven't grown up with the same beliefs as women in these culture do. We don't grow up being taught that we are inferior, etc etc - we are in a vastly different situation.

You are a product of your surroundings.... if I grew up in a totally different culture, I am certain I would be a totally different person.

Hope this is all making a little sense..

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:10 AM
You're making a lot of sense, Rebecca:)

It's one of the reasons I don't believe in religion. I was brought up a catholic, had I been born in the Netherlands I'd have been a protestant, had I been born in Iran I'd been a muslim. The place where you're born determines what you're supposed to believe in.

As a child you always take everything you learn in school and what your parents teach you, as the absolute truth. In different countries, different things are being taught, so people have different truths. To us, the child is clearly the victim, that's our truth, to them the truth is that the child has brought shame upon herself. The women are taught the same thing, as awful as it may seem, they believe in it too so they're not going to revolt against it. They simply don't know any better.

I often hear of islam girls here fleeing from an arranged marriage. These are girls who've grown up in the western world, who DO know better and they DO try to escape from it.

BritneySpearsIsHot
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:14 AM
Nasty, makes me feel ill

irma
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:18 AM
oh my goodness :fiery:

Josh
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:58 AM
Be careful not to blame everything on Islam. Many local customs and traditions are much older than Islam and have survived throughout the centuries. Most of these traditions have now been linked to Islam although nowhere in the Koran is written that a man can behead his daughter. Besides the outrage of the local community shows that nobody accepts this kind of behaviour.

i-girl
Sep 21st, 2002, 11:35 AM
no, Josh, it happens all the time, and it does have to do with Islam. there was a similar case here some time ago. a girl was raped by her brother, and her other brother killed her. they're both in jail now, as is their mother and father because they ordered the brother to kill.

Josh
Sep 21st, 2002, 01:58 PM
Like I said, Islam does not condone this behaviour. If you would read the Koran the same way you read the Bible and give everything a similar interpretation you would see there is not much difference between those religions. It also counts the other way around, give a Bible to a fundamentalist and he give an equally twisted interpretation as he would with the Koran.

Problem is that in most countries people have sought refuge in a very fundamentalistic interpretation of Islam, combined with customs and traditions that we in the West have already long abandoned (though some countries still have the death penalty).
Islam can go hand in hand with a modern democracy, just like christianity or judaism can. Look at Turkey and even in countries like Morocco or even Iran things are slowly evolving. We can't expect things to change overnight and we certainly need to voice our disapproval in cases like this but blaming Islam and calling them primitive or backwards etc is certainly not gonna help and will only puch them further in fundamentalism.

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2002, 02:33 PM
I agree, Josh. I've always believed that Christianity, Judiasm and Islam are in essence the same. Like you say, Islamic culture hasn't evolved as much as a christian or Judaist culture. Isn't that the definition of backwards?

i-girl
Sep 21st, 2002, 02:46 PM
I agree with Josh's post:eek: . I also agree with Tine that Islam is at an earlier stage of it's development. I don't agree, though, that Judeo-Christian moral is similar to Islamic moral (and I had to read their scriptures in the army, Josh, so don't try to suggest I don't know what they're about), and I don't think that the fact that their disturbing patterns of behaviour are a result of their religion being "young" is any consolation. by the time they get out of puberty (sp) they might just kill us all. and once again, Josh, it makes ZERO difference what the "true nature" of Islam is, what counts is that a significant amount of people apply it in a very disturbing way.

Josh
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:25 PM
Of course it's true the judaism and christianity have more in common than islam because they have the same scripture (old testament). However the essence, the moral of all three religions is the same. Things like "don't harm others, love your neighbours, etc..." can be found in all three religions. Though it's true that they've known a different development even though all three originated in the Middle East.

Jews have always been prosecuted and have been dispatched all over the world. Therefore judaism has never had an 'imperalistic' vision as it was always in the opprossed and minoritarian position. Judaism has been about preserving its identity against an hostile world and not about conquering and converting other people.

Christianity used to be in the same position as judaism as christians were prosecuted and killed by Romans but somehow the religion became state religion and began its conquest of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. Basically this has lead to the belief that christians had the moral duty to bring christianity all around the world which led to an imperialistic vision of christianity.

Islam was in essence a religion for the Arabic people but through trade it expanded to Asia and Africa. With the rise of Arabic culture it was also brought to other places and though there certainly were forced conversions, islam never had the same aggressive attitude as christianity. It's only after the christians showed a not so gentle attitude towards muslims that Islam became more fundamentalistic.

It does matter what the true nature of Islam is cause the majority of muslims are NOT fundamentalist and just want to live their lives in peace like everyone else. Procentually speaking there are as many fundamentalist christians in America f.e. as there are fundamentalist muslims in any muslim country. Yet during problems they are always the first we see in the media, giving the impression that almost all muslims must be extremists. Noone claims f.e. that christianity is a fundamentalist religion even though a significant amount of people in the USA applies it that way.

Certainly the fact that Islam is a young religion is not the sole explanation for a certain funadmentalist vision in Islam, also the way the rest of the world sees and thinks about Islam contributes to this.


Tine, backwards is a very derogatory word and I don't think it's right to say that about culture cause after all every culture has its good and its bad sides. F.e. in islamic countries it is customary that children take care of their parents when they are old whereas we put them in homes or hospitals. Would you call that backwards?

Josh
Sep 21st, 2002, 03:26 PM
And I apologise for the long post lol.

Aloysius
Sep 21st, 2002, 04:21 PM
I don't agree with taking the law into your own hands, but wouldn't the most logical thing have been for the father to behead the person who raped his daughter rather than slaying her. Even the most primative neanderthal would have thought of that instinctively. Is it not more of a shame and a crime to have violated someone else?

gmt
Sep 21st, 2002, 04:30 PM
The fact reported above is utterly horrible, and if some Islamic lawyers reply on the Quran to justify such crimes, then something has to be done.

Now, I have to agree with Josh. There are things about which Islam is rather more realistic and tolerant than most other religions. I know many Muslims who do not satisfy themselves with the youth of their religion and are humanists just as many Christians, Jews, or others are. In France, people like the mufti of Marseilles are very straightforward and courageous in the plea for "modern" Islam.

As for the writer, you know, Tine, there is not much to be said for him. He surely is "technically" talented, but I cannot stand a guy who writes a book complacently describing a "sexual tourist" spending his life in Thailand mostly to have sex with teenage or even younger prostitutes as if it were the most natural thing in the world, a guy who states that Islam is the dumbest religion in the world and that when you read the Quran, you are appalled (and he added at his trial that it was not hatred bu scorn), etc.

It is those characters who divert "freedom of speech" from its real value and essence, find pleasure in harming others in the name of thought-provocation, and make tons of money out of it. In fact, I find the complete lack of moral worth all the more unforgiveable when the person is intelligent and talented.

gmt
Sep 21st, 2002, 04:37 PM
Oh, also, and I'll stop there because that guy's quotes don't need to be publicized even more than they already are, he also said that the Quran was badly written. I doubt that he can read Arabic... I remember one of my Tunisian friends, who was as remote from a fundamentalist as could be, but was a Muslim and loved the QUran as one of the first, and most poetic, Arabic classical texts. If a guy like that writer stepped in and began to spit on a book of so much significance for my own culture, I wonder how I would react. It is not a matter of being PC any more, really. I agree with Tine that many are much too quick to shout "racist" or "fascist" or "nazi", thus depreciating the meaning of those terrible words, but that guy really deserves no respect. As a Muslim leader said, sometimes moral wounds can hurt as much as physical ones.

By the way, he won his trial. His utter scorn was found "legal". Let's not worry for the freedom of thought, rather for that of being allowed a little bit of respect and consideration...

gentenaire
Sep 21st, 2002, 05:46 PM
I certainly did not agree with everything Fortuyn said, far from it. He was a populist, he knew exactly what to say, he knew what people wanted to hear. I'm convinced though that he wasn't nearly as bad as De Winter or Le Pen.

I agree that there are probably just as many fundamentalist Christians as there are Muslims. However, I still feel that the average Muslim is much more extreme than the average Christian. The Muslims in our regions have westernised, those in the Middle East haven't! My parents visited Yemen two years ago. They all live in poverty, the average women has about 8 children and when asked if they're not worried they may not be able to give their children a decent future they replied "no, we'll send them to Europe, Europe will fall in our hands like a rotten apple!" Their words!! Needless to say my mother's now very scared when they suggest Arabic should be our 4th national language, etc. I know that's not going to happen, my mother knows that's not going to happen, but it's still scary to think that the average Muslim in those countries feels non-muslims are 2nd class, less worthy. Christians used to think like that as well, talking about 'heathens' in a very derogatory way, but not anymore.

gmt
Sep 21st, 2002, 05:52 PM
Oh, of course I was referring to that French writer, not to Fortuyn...

Barrie_Dude
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:02 PM
I was not going to even look at this because it is far too horrible to fathom. I am, however, shaking my head in despair at this sort of thing and all the senseless act of violence. Can we truly call ourselves a "Civilized" people? I see very little civility in the world today. I fear that we are still in the barbaric stage of our evelotion and that we are much closer to being primal beasts than we care to mention.:sad: :sad: :sad:

King Satan
Sep 21st, 2002, 10:05 PM
This is some really sick shit, I don't even wanna talk about this.

Iconoclast
Sep 21st, 2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by gmt
Oh, also, and I'll stop there because that guy's quotes don't need to be publicized even more than they already are, he also said that the Quran was badly written. I doubt that he can read Arabic... I remember one of my Tunisian friends, who was as remote from a fundamentalist as could be, but was a Muslim and loved the QUran as one of the first, and most poetic, Arabic classical texts.
I can't judge if it's poetically written either since my command of Arabic is not a command at all. But in translation it did not leave a convincing impression on me. I find the Quran to be highly incoherent.

Sometimes the same message, in almost identical form, is repeated multiple times. Maybe to emphasise the importance of a point, but it seems redundant. There are also frequent jumps between completely unrelated topics. It lacks both continuity and interconnection. I was also baffled to see Allah seemingly addressing himself in a few places. Wasn't it supposed to be Allah's revelation to mankind?

It has been said that you need the Hadiths to supplement and fully appreciate it. But that far from improves the literary merit of the Quran.

I haven't touched on the all-crucial content, but that doesn't exactly heighten the experience either to state it plainly. In fairness, The Old Testament was just as depressive a reading. Especially the Medinan phase of Muhammad's life lacks uplifting qualities.

The Quran has never underwent the same textual scrutiny as the Bible to explore more about its origin and authors.

The French author Houellebecq may have been unsensitive with some of his remarks, whether uttered by himself in interviews or through ******* in his novels.

But I will defend his right to criticize the Quran as much as he likes without fearing any kind of repercussion - other than verbal rebuttals.

It's only a book after all. Albeit a rather important one.

Iconoclast
Sep 22nd, 2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Josh
Islam was in essence a religion for the Arabic people but through trade it expanded to Asia and Africa. With the rise of Arabic culture it was also brought to other places and though there certainly were forced conversions, islam never had the same aggressive attitude as christianity.
I just had time to respond to the point above, even though others egged me on as well! I hope you can forgive me.

In the one hundred years following Muhammad's death - he was himself a warlord and a conquerer - Islam spread immensely throughout the world by means of weaponry. This expansion was perhaps the swiftest ever.

It's not a coincidence that the Battle of Tours is considered one of the most crucial in history. Abderrahman's mighty army of horsemen and infantry were trying to subdue the European continent and win it for Islam when faced with the legendary Frankish king Charles Martel. Suffice to say, Gaul was saved and Abderrahman killed. Otherwise, Europe might have looked a whole lot different.

That was in 732. The Muslims had hardly been the victims of Christian aggression at that time. And they weren't exactly invited to come to Europe. Or, for that matter, some of the other places in Africa and Asia where they showed up with swords and made demands.

The Crusades were initiated to win back Jerusalem - after it had originally been conquered by Muslims. If it was wrong of Christians to try and conquer it, it was also wrong of Muslims to achieve the conquest in the first place. We need to apply the same standard when judging civilisations.

I could also drudge up the imperialistic campaigns of the Ottoman Empire. For instance, the one that ended for Kara Mustafa at the 'gates of Vienna' in 1683. And the genocides of Armenians and Assyrians.

Josh
Sep 22nd, 2002, 12:26 AM
Fair points but just a few observations :

The muslims may not have been "invited" to Europe, local population certainly did help them to gain power because they were tired of the many wars and the terrible state of their land. Furthermore Christians and Jews were allowed to retain their posessions and religious practices as long as they accepted theMuslims as rulers of the country. There were no forced conversions and the Jewish population even grew again after almost being completely wiped out by Christians in the centuries before. Only in the centuries after tensions between muslims and christians grew, mainly due to the pressure of the catholic church who refused to accept Mohammed as a prophet.

The conquest of Jerusalem by muslims was a bloodless one. Again the christians were given the right to maintain their holy places and pursue their religious customs. In the next centuries the Jewish population grew rapidly whereas before they were prosecuted by christians.

Cassius
Sep 22nd, 2002, 01:18 AM
Three words: JOSH IS RIGHT.

i-girl
Sep 22nd, 2002, 07:38 AM
Both Josh and Icono are right. it's a good point that as rulers, the Muslims were sometimes more flexible to other faiths than christians. it can't be denied, though, that they have advanced their religion through force. on top of what Icono has already mentioned, Islam has also taken over the mongol empire During the 14th century, and was forced upon their subjects in major parts of the empire. this is how so many former USSR countries have a muslim majority today. they were onced ruled by the Mongols, who have converted to Islam, and made Islam "state religion".

i-girl
Sep 22nd, 2002, 07:39 AM
was Tine predicting the future, or is there really a proposal to add Arabic as Belgium's 4th language:eek: ? I can't believe they said
"Europe will fall in our hands like a rotten apple!" right to your face...
also, it's true that there are many christian extremists, but they don't usually blow stuff up, or behead their daughters:rolleyes: .

Viva
Sep 22nd, 2002, 11:52 AM
Nope, they just blow up Abortion clinics. :rolleyes:

i-girl
Sep 22nd, 2002, 12:02 PM
oh yeah, I'm with you on that one. ok, so they are equaly bad.

Hulet
Sep 22nd, 2002, 01:54 PM
Okay. My first post in the non-tennis part of the forum and I was going to call on the ignorance of some of the posters in this thread. But, what is the point?

Enjoy your ignorance and have a good weekend.:o

Cassius
Sep 24th, 2002, 12:25 AM
Both Josh and Icono are right. it's a good point that as rulers, the Muslims were sometimes more flexible to other faiths than christians. it can't be denied, though, that they have advanced their religion through force. on top of what Icono has already mentioned, Islam has also taken over the mongol empire During the 14th century, and was forced upon their subjects in major parts of the empire. this is how so many former USSR countries have a muslim majority today. they were onced ruled by the Mongols, who have converted to Islam, and made Islam "state religion".
Yes, I-Girl, the Muslims did invade places, but they didn't force their religious beliefs onto the 'captured' peoples.
But, the christians went peacefully to India and South Africa and forced the Indians and Zulus to become christians.

So, in a way, both of these religions are bad, and both allow (or allowED) a certain amount of flexibilty.

Irish
Sep 24th, 2002, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by i-girl
oh yeah, I'm with you on that one. ok, so they are equaly bad.
Why do YOU continue to GENERALIZE?!!?!! :fiery: You have alot of nerve to continue this crap!!!!! :fiery: You chit chat to our face and then throw this sh_t out!!

Kiwi_Boy
Sep 24th, 2002, 02:46 AM
ok,im not sure if some people are trying to say that all muslims are bad and that islam is a bad religion,but i hope not.:confused:
their are religious fanatics in many religions,and the actions of individuals can't be made to stereo type an entire religion or group-thats just ignorant and unfair.
i have met many kind muslims and found that they are true muslims who practice love and peace(like islam is suppost to be about) :)
i think most religions have bad people in them and its a select few individuals who choose to mis-interpret their holy words in order for self gain(power/greed etc),and unfortunatly it is these people who cause stereo types on entire religions.
i am realy pissed off at the individuals who are so perverted they do this kind of thing(they must have somthing wrong with them:rolleyes: )~especialy in this instance ,since it was commited by a parent to his daughter!:fiery:

Monique
Sep 24th, 2002, 05:59 AM
great posts Josh and Iconoclast! posts like those make non-tennis section more interesting and worthy...

i-girl
Sep 24th, 2002, 07:41 AM
oh for crying out loud kerry! don't start again! I was not talking about christians just the extremists. you are just LOOKING to be insulted now. am I not always talking about Judeo-Christian moral? our religions SHARE their moral beliefs, so obviously I am NOT critisizing all christians. I said that the people who blow up abortion clinics are as bad as the people who blow up restaurants. which word do you not agree with?
man, what on earth did we bring to life this dead thread for?

Hagar
Sep 24th, 2002, 09:24 AM
The way Islam thinks about women and treats them is absolutely retarded and sick. I don't care if this is not PC to say.

gmt
Sep 24th, 2002, 05:59 PM
But what exactly is the way Islam thinks about woman and treats them?

I am sincerely wondering. I know many Muslims who are sincere believers, but have as honorable and as respectful views about women as anyone I know. Are they the ones who are far from "true Islam" and are extremists the ones who are close? If yes, why, and what entitles us to state it?

I don't care a bit about PC, and it is not my problem if someone says the same thing as me out of sheer political correctness.

What I think is that before we tell a billion people that their faith is worthy of such harsh comments, we ought to ponder the above questions. I have tried myself and have not reached firm enough a conclusion to utter such statements.

gmt
Sep 24th, 2002, 06:02 PM
To tell the truth, I find that it is everyday, if not more PC, at least widely considered more "acceptable" to condemn Islam as a whole as a backward and retarded religion. (I am not saying that Hildegard wrote such a thing.) Certainly Islam, and a fortiori the way it is preached and practised by many, is not above all criticism. But fair criticism on those matters is uneasy.

gentenaire
Sep 24th, 2002, 07:49 PM
I do agree with you in a way, gmt, but don't forget that you're a man. It's different for us women. This month I moved to a new place. There are three flats in this house, in flat #1 lives an Islamic couple (don't know what country they're from) with a young child. One morning when I was walking down the stairs when they were just leaving their flat, I introduced myself as their new upstairs neighbour. I had already talked quite a bit with my other neighbour, we share compost bags (it's collected seperately over here and I don't have enough compost every week to fill a whole bag so we share) and PMD bags (plastic, metal and drink cartons), etc. With other foreigner it's not a problem to talk freely either. However, when I introduced myself to these people I could see the disapproval on the man's face and didn't like it one bit! He was clearly looking down on me, probably thinking I'm a disgrace or something for being female and living on my own. The woman hardly dared lift her eyes.
I was trying to be nice, I don't understand why he should be looking at me with such distaste.

A4
Sep 24th, 2002, 11:00 PM
Okay, I saw this somewhere.

"I moved to a new neigbourhood, predominantly filled with people of a different skin colour. I went to say hello to my neighbours and the distaste and anger I saw in their eyes and heart was so bewildering. They never associated with me and a few months later they moved out of their houses. There's no other reason for it. Its due to my skin colour and you have to be of the same skin colour to understand how it feels like. The culture of people like my neighbours is racist in its outlook."

Does this sound familiar?

Josh
Sep 24th, 2002, 11:05 PM
But Tine, you assume that he was disapproving your lifestyle, you can't read his mind! Maybe there was another reason for their "cold" reply to your introduction. Next to my grandparents lives an old woman on her own. One day a man of Arabic origin parked his car in front of her garage and rang to her door. When she opened the door and saw him she slapped the door to his face and called the police. Apparently she felt threatened because a few weeks before a Moroccan guy stole her handbag. The man who rang her door only wanted to ask if he could park his car in front of her garage for 5 minutes because he had to go to the pharmacist and there was no parking spot elsewhere.

So the couple might have had a similar experience with a Belgian thief, hence their caution. Or maybe they are friends or family of a person who lived something similar as the doorbell guy, hence their cold attitude towards Belgians in general. Of course this is as much hypothetical as your assumption. Point is that this is an isolated case and neither of us really knows what those people were thinking when you approached them.

At my university there's a lot of muslims, mostly from Turkey and Morocco, boys and girls and at least 85% of the girls doesn't wear a veil. They are dressed the same as all other girls, some wear mini-skirts, others wear jeans, etc... And even the ones who wear a veil are very sociable and wear the veil because it's their choice, they are not forced to wear it.
Sadly these people are never or hardly shown in the media, because they only care for the "forced marriage" cases and other shocking stories. No wonder so many people fear Islam but bottom line is that Islam and democratic values, equality between genders, freedom of speech, human rights,... can go hand in hand.

Josh
Sep 24th, 2002, 11:19 PM
For the record : I do NOT approve the kind of behaviour I described above, that someone is scared or cautious towards people who have the same physical characteristics as someone they or someone they know have/has had a bad experience with in the past. It's all based on prejudices which are completely wrong.
I just raised the point because Tine linked her story to how Islam sees women (at least that's how I understood it) and I merely wanted to show that it could be something totally different (but not necessarily less bad).

i-girl
Sep 25th, 2002, 07:38 AM
I'm sorry, it's not what I see in Israel. even in my University, with Muslim people who are supposed to be educated and advanced, I find really horrible practices involving women. women are allowed to attaned University by their parents only if there is a man close with family (brother, cousin etc.) there to watch her bahviour, and are very restricted in what they can do. they are not allowed to go out or mingle, and when they graduate, an overwhelming majority marry, move near their parents and never work or use the skills they've learned. I doubt they would ever go to Uni in the first place, but the government pays for their studies (University is not generally paid for by the state in Israel). and these are the women who come from "advanced" families, it's so much worse with the rest.
(and yes, Josh, I'm sure Tine's neighbour looked down on her because he thought she was a thief. we all know how rough and nasty those belgian chicks are:rolleyes: . you're sooo reaching, Joshi).

gentenaire
Sep 25th, 2002, 08:20 AM
When there's a conflict, I always believe both parties are to blame. I know that we shouldn't generalise all muslims, but sometimes it's very hard not to. I used to carry around petitions against racism, I asked nearly everyone I know to sign a petition to let an immigrant boy (boyfriend of a school friend) who was here illegally, stay in the country. I stopped doing that. Back then those stories you heard were hearsay, you heard from the aunt of the hair dresser of the butcher of your sister that...
It's no longer hearsay. A friend of mine got beaten up at a party because she accidently spilled a little water on one of these guys' shoes. When she was lying in hospital the police adviced her not to press charges for her own safety!
The only time I've ever felt scared was when some of these guys were pulling my hair for no reason, throwing my tray upside down (it was in a Mc Donalds restaurant), they were basically looking for a fight.


I'll stop now. I'll be gone for 6 days so I won't be able to read the replies. Just had to get this off my chest.

i-girl
Sep 25th, 2002, 08:32 AM
I'm sorry, it must have been very scary.
have fun on your vacation! (I hope that's where you're going:) )

Irish
Sep 25th, 2002, 08:50 AM
Tine, I feel bad for you. :sad: I hope you will enjoy your 6 days away. :)

M2k
Sep 25th, 2002, 09:01 AM
I feel for the poor child, no support and no love for her...

Benny
Sep 25th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Seriously, when will the countries like the USA, UK, Australia and other countries get help to these places and not just go to Afganistan!
These countries need help to and they need to be educated about EQUAL RIGHTS.
That man should be hanged or locked away and they should throw away the key, literally.

Josh
Sep 25th, 2002, 11:21 AM
Noga, the thief-comment was just an example, I just used that to make mu point clear. I was trying to point out that there might have been another reason for their cold reception and I used the thief because of the story with the old woman. Problem is that when people of a minority (let's talk only about muslims now) show hesitance to mingle with the majority their behaviour is explained by the fact that their morals or believes are not at the same level as "ours". Fact is that people of Islamic origin are already labelled as extremists or criminals before you even get the chance to know them. No wonder that people who are faced with these kinds of prejudices are rather hesitant to talk to "us".

And no I'm not saying that Tine looked like "a nasty, rough chick" but is that a necessity to be a thief? What does a thief look like? Is it better to assume an Arabic looking guy is a thief instead of a blonde Belgian girl?

Tine, I'm orry to hear about your friend and you rexperience in McDonald but you must be cautious not to generalise. Why did you stop those petitions against racism? Because you and your friend had a bad experience? So you're just giving up on all foreigners because of a couple of morons, suddenly fighting against racism and prejudices is no longer important to you because of that?

Noga, I'm aware that what you say about muslim girls at your university is true. But I was describing how they behaved in a country like Belgium. I know Israel is also a democracy and a "western" country like Belgium but the more "fundamentalistic" attitude of muslim parents might partly be explained by the ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. In a situation like that people tend to be a little more extreme, plus customs and traditions in Palestina are not the same as in Belgium. I just wanted to make clear that when people grow up in a democratic and more free society, they will adapt to that way of life, no matter if they are christian, muslim, buddhist, jewish...

Cassius
Sep 26th, 2002, 12:02 AM
Once again I agree with the basics of what Josh is saying.
All Muslim countries cannot be lumped together.
Saudi Arabia is a vastly different country from Turkey. Turkey is Muslim but is alot more modern, alot more 'western', than the KSA.
I know Turkey and KSA are just two examples, but I think they represent the opposite ends of the spectrum, so to speak. KSA, with it's more extremists views, and Turkey where the women are treated alot better than in KSA and most (if not all) other Muslim countries.
If the other Muslim countries were more like Turkey, then this debate would be alot different. I'm not saying the debate would go away, but it would be different.

Irish
Sep 26th, 2002, 01:19 AM
Josh and Cassius are right about Turkey being a secular Muslim country and they are more westernized and do not want to be lumped in the same category as an Arab Muslim country. The women there are treated a lot better and more fairly with so many things.

Turkey has been trying since 1923 and even earlier to separate themselves from this 'image' of extremists as they are secular and want to be part of Europe and westernized. They are recognized for being the model Islamic country for the other Islamic countries to follow.

Iconoclast
Oct 2nd, 2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by gmt
But what exactly is the way Islam thinks about woman and treats them?
You can start by reading chapter 4 (An-Nisa) of the Quran. Here Allah is instructing men how to deal with women on a number of issues. Many other topics are covered as well, not specifically relating to women. And women are also dealt with in other chapters besides this. On top of that, there are the Hadiths (Mohammed's sayings) and the Sunna (Mohammed's way of life) to consider if you want a full picture of what is stated by Islamic scripture concerning women.

However, I haven't yet found the chapter where female believers are addressed in a similar fashion and provided advice about their male counterparts, but I guess it will show up someday.

The chapter consists of 176 Surahs. An-Nisa literally translates to 'women'. Verse 34 proclaims the general status of women in society.

"YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."

The complete chapter (including two other important English translations of the Quran) is freely available at: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

As for the treatment of women in Islamic countries today, I think the situation is nothing short of appalling. The rise of fundamentalism in the wake of the Iranian revolution was a major set-back.

Sadly, few people have heard of Taslima Nasreen, a writer and feminist from Bangladesh who, faced with a fatwa, had to flee her country after challenging the way Islam is used to subordinate women.

Here is a recent article about her:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/27book.htm

At the bottom of that page, there are links to additional stories about her woes - to use a temperate expression.