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View Full Version : Question/suggestion to forum admins Re. scores threads


Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 04:29 AM
Can't we have a child-forum for match-results threads? I have absolutely nothing against them, and quite often when I want to know the result of a match, I just browse the GM forum, so they are useful to me, however, one one hand that usefulness would be enhanced if those threads were grouped in a sub-forum and one the other hand it would prevent other interesting discussions to be pushed down in the depths of GM, especially on ealrly days of tournaments.

Just my two cents...

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 04:37 AM
Same about pre-matches polls (except their usefulness is very questionable) :tape:.

tennnisfannn
Jun 16th, 2009, 04:53 AM
Same about pre-matches polls (except their usefulness is very questionable) :tape:.
they don't have to be useful, they keep us intrigued as we await a match. A maria/wickmayer match up may seem like a walk over for maria until the board has you convinced there is a stunning upset in the making, then you watch the match and it really is a walk over. I love those polls.:lol:

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 05:01 AM
they don't have to be useful, they keep us intrigued as we await a match. A maria/wickmayer match up may seem like a walk over for maria until the board has you convinced there is a stunning upset in the making, then you watch the match and it really is a walk over. I love those polls.:lol:
I have to admit I happened more than once to vote and post in pre-matches threads myself. My point is just that there are so many scores threads and pre-matches polls that it's "polluting" the GM thread-list, is all.

adner
Jun 16th, 2009, 05:02 AM
Actually I think that the other threads are polluting the list and maybe should be moved somewhere :p

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 05:06 AM
Actually I think that the other threads are polluting the list and maybe should be moved somewhere :p
I think I know what you mean... But, well, lets tackle issues with method :lol:.

Lefty.
Jun 16th, 2009, 06:51 AM
Just imo, if those threads are moved out of GM, there wouldn't really be THAT many threads left in here. :lol:

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 07:05 AM
Just imo, if those threads are moved out of GM, there wouldn't really be THAT many threads left in here. :lol:
Today I counted 18 score or pre-match polls threads in 60 for the two first pages of GM. On the first days of a GS, it oughta be the majority.
The thing is that I find the standard of discussions on WTAWorld has dramatically declined in the 3 or 4 last years and coincidentally that's about the time when score threads started to proliferate. Obviously it's not the only reason but I'm sure it has contributed: it gives less visibility to interesting threads.

Maria Croft
Jun 16th, 2009, 07:08 AM
I actually think it's a very good idea :yeah:

Lunaris
Jun 16th, 2009, 07:32 AM
Just imo, if those threads are moved out of GM, there wouldn't really be THAT many threads left in here. :lol:
There would be all kinds of pointless threads you and your fellow mods allow to stay here.

Few examples that are on page 1 of GM now:

"Which actress do you think should portray your favorite in their biography movie?" - pointless/non-tennis
"Tennis Videogames Thread // EA Tennis Xbox360/PS3 version confirmed" - also non-tennis
"Vote the most "choker" player ever" - already done zillion times
"Will 5-Time Champs Roger & Venus Be seeded #1 at Wimbledon despite their rankings?" - no, pointless thread
"Nicole Vaidisova will win Wimbledon!" - crap thread, wishful thinking, again pretty pointless
"Wimbledon Qualifying Draw" - nothing wrong with this one, but shouldn't it be in the tournament subforum?
"Maria Sharapova and Serena Wimbledon Dresses 2009 (sexy!!!)" - player subforum
"Should the Williams Sisters be seeded 1 and 2 for Wimbeldon?" - no, nor they will be, again pretty pointless to talk about it
"Justine Singing!!!" - player subforum

... move or delete all these threads and voila... plenty of room for more interesting ones

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 07:44 AM
There would be all kinds of pointless threads you and your fellow mods allow to stay here.

Few examples that are on page 1 of GM now:

"Which actress do you think should portray your favorite in their biography movie?" - pointless/non-tennis
"Tennis Videogames Thread // EA Tennis Xbox360/PS3 version confirmed" - also non-tennis
"Vote the most "choker" player ever" - already done zillion times
"Will 5-Time Champs Roger & Venus Be seeded #1 at Wimbledon despite their rankings?" - no, pointless thread
"Nicole Vaidisova will win Wimbledon!" - crap thread, wishful thinking, again pretty pointless
"Wimbledon Qualifying Draw" - nothing wrong with this one, but shouldn't it be in the tournament subforum?
"Maria Sharapova and Serena Wimbledon Dresses 2009 (sexy!!!)" - player subforum
"Should the Williams Sisters be seeded 1 and 2 for Wimbeldon?" - no, nor they will be, again pretty pointless to talk about it
"Justine Singing!!!" - player subforum

... move or delete all these threads and voila... plenty of room for more interesting ones
I hear ya...
But it's not an easy thing to decide what threads are worthwhile/worthless. Sadly, those threads you mention seem to attract many posters. I wouldn't advocate extensive censorship in this forum. If some folks prefer discussing outfits over groundstrokes, so be it.
However, as far as possible, let's try to give more readability to GM.

Lunaris
Jun 16th, 2009, 08:00 AM
Yep, it's not always easy. On the other hand in many cases it is easy. "Vania King singing in French" also belongs to player's subforum. I think we can agree on that.

Or "Boo and Wimbledon website". Why start a thread about terrible punctations? Seriously, who cares?

^bibi^
Jun 16th, 2009, 10:57 AM
This had already been discussed in the past if I remember correctly (this doesn't mean it cannot be discussed again...), the issue at the time being that we didn't want GM to be split in many subforums...

About lunaris' post, please keep in mind that GM stands for "General" message, which means you'll find anything in there, and yes some threads are totally pointless IMO too, but it's not a reason to close/delete them...

Sharapower
Jun 16th, 2009, 11:52 AM
This had already been discussed in the past if I remember correctly (this doesn't mean it cannot be discussed again...), the issue at the time being that we didn't want GM to be split in many subforums...

An alternate solution would be to have the scores threads in the respective tournaments forums. So there would be no need to create any subforum. And that would actually make sense later on if someone wants to search what have been discussed about a specific match in a tournament that took place months or years ago.

^bibi^
Jun 16th, 2009, 12:08 PM
An alternate solution would be to have the scores threads in the respective tournaments forums. So there would be no need to create any subforum. And that would actually make sense later on if someone wants to search what have been discussed about a specific match in a tournament that took place months or years ago.

I'll bring this up again in the admin/mod forum :wavey:

iGOAT
Jun 16th, 2009, 04:11 PM
Lunaris, 80% of this board is pointless, but if people post that's the point.

Sean.
Jun 16th, 2009, 09:44 PM
I like the idea of a separate sub-forum for results :)

Kart
Jun 16th, 2009, 10:03 PM
An alternate solution would be to have the scores threads in the respective tournaments forums. So there would be no need to create any subforum. And that would actually make sense later on if someone wants to search what have been discussed about a specific match in a tournament that took place months or years ago.

This is a more reasonable suggestion than creating another forum that posters probably won't use.

I'd offer you a few points to think about though:

1. Are you just going to move threads with the results in the titles or are you going to move all threads that discuss particular matches ? If it's the latter, how are you going to discriminate ?

2. Surely the point of a General Messages forum is to discuss women's tennis in general (?) If a big match is on, are you going to now insist with this ruling that it can only be discussed in the relevant tournament forum ?

3. Posters have demonstrated time and again that they only use sub-forums when it suits them. Larger fan bases complain that, because their players are at the top of the game that their matches should be in the biggest forum as they're going to generate the most discussion there. Whether or not you agree with that, they do have a point but is it fair to let some fan bases have their threads in there and not others ?

4. Finally - what are you going to do about posters that ignore this rule ? Moderators can move threads without any problem but what are they to do about posters that repeatedly re-post the same thread in General Messsages ? At some point, you have to draw the line and tell them to stop or you will sanction them. Then they might end up sanctioned, which can rapidly escalate and end badly. However, once you go down the route of formalising these kind of rules you end up committed to the road of enforcing them in a well intentioned effort to be consistent. I have to say I'd sympathise with someone who ended up getting banned because they repeatedly posted tennis results on a tennis message board (!)

I don't really have an opinion on your suggestion - I'd go with whatever the GM moderators think is best but I'm just indicating some of the things they'd have to consider before agreeing to this.

Tennis results have been posted in GM since this board was created - this would represent a massive change in the way it's been presented in the past.

That means that the majority of the board posters would have to support it, not just the forum moderators because a minority of posters think GM is too cluttered.

Kart
Jun 16th, 2009, 10:08 PM
I don't expect you to answer the above questions - in fact I'd rather you didn't because I already know the answers :p - just wanted to illustrate that things are not quite as straightforward as they seem.

-Sonic-
Jun 16th, 2009, 10:21 PM
I'm 100% against the idea. Thats all I have to say on the subject.

drake3781
Jun 17th, 2009, 02:47 AM
I like it the way it is.

Sharapower
Jun 17th, 2009, 02:56 AM
To Kart:
I won't answer point by point but the general idea is that:
- When it has been decided that live matches discussions have no place in GM, it didn't pose huge difficulties to enforce it. Now all live matches discussions are held in the tournaments' forums without any exception nor complaint.

- I don't think enforcing this kind of rule will lead to bans unless the posters intentionally break the rules in order to piss off the moderators. Perhaps, in the beginning the mods, when they move threads to the appropriate forum, would have to drop a line in PM to the thread starters explaining why they moved it :shrug:.

- I think the size of a "fan-base" is not a relevant factor to consider as far as organizing this forum is concerned. Each single member is equally important to the board whether they root for a big name (and as you may notice that's my case) or they're a fan of a less known player that mainly plays in ITF or low tier tournaments.

- about:
Tennis results have been posted in GM since this board was created - this would represent a massive change in the way it's been presented in the past. That's not accurate, here's an interesting experiment: in GM, choose to show threads sorted by Thread start time, Ascending and show threads "From beginning". It will take several pages before you encounter a score-thread and you'll see that for several years, only a small portion of results had their threads. (On a side note, you'll also notice that the topics were quite tennis-centered at that time :p). I think it was only about 4 or 5 years ago that scores were systematically posted in dedicated threads. Once again, I'm not against it at all, it's informative and absolutely tennis-relevant, but I think that having them in the GM has a negative side effect to the readability of the GM forum.

- about: That means that the majority of the board posters would have to support it, not just the forum moderators because a minority of posters think GM is too cluttered. A forum is not meant to be a democracy. We don't have a say in whatever decision the board admins take, it's up to them and only them to decide what is best for the site. We only can make suggestions as I am doing now. If it is not sustained, I won't lose sleep nor quit the board.

I joined this forum from its early days, the least that I can say is that I'm not entirely happy of where it stands now, compared to a few years ago: Although the website itself has evolved very positively, the current content leaves a lot to be desired, IMO; so I'm just trying to contribute with ideas for improvement.

To -Sonic- : you're entitled to an opinion, moreover, yours matters as you are a moderator. I just regret that you wouldn't elaborate a little bit.

new-york
Jun 17th, 2009, 05:02 AM
i do feel like they belong to general messages.

moving every live discussions to the tournaments forums is logical because it gives posters a possibility to interact with eachother on everything currently happening without polluting GM about a bottle of water.

the results threads are to me supposed to be a general tennis discussion about a live match which is now an event ready to be "analysed" (well, commented) in the context of a general tennis discussion.

although they are not filled with deep thought but mostly short reactions, i feel like they are a part of GM, in its dynamic.

i'm not sure moving them in a sub would make GM better, the quality of the discussions there would probably remain the same.

Sharapower
Jun 17th, 2009, 07:17 AM
i'm not sure moving them in a sub would make GM better, the quality of the discussions there would probably remain the same.

The improvement I can see is readability and "searchability" of GM. Also, it may help avoid people starting threads over again for subjects that are already discussed in an active thread.
I do agree that the content/quality of discussions is a whole different matter that requires a lot more than that to be addressed (if it need be addressed!). But the issue that's concerned with my suggestion is the external appearance of the current GM. It's more "General Mess" than "General Messages", so to say.

Kart
Jun 17th, 2009, 05:02 PM
To Kart:
I won't answer point by point but the general idea is that:
- When it has been decided that live matches discussions have no place in GM, it didn't pose huge difficulties to enforce it. Now all live matches discussions are held in the tournaments' forums without any exception nor complaint.

- I don't think enforcing this kind of rule will lead to bans unless the posters intentionally break the rules in order to piss off the moderators. Perhaps, in the beginning the mods, when they move threads to the appropriate forum, would have to drop a line in PM to the thread starters explaining why they moved it :shrug:.

- I think the size of a "fan-base" is not a relevant factor to consider as far as organizing this forum is concerned. Each single member is equally important to the board whether they root for a big name (and as you may notice that's my case) or they're a fan of a less known player that mainly plays in ITF or low tier tournaments.

I'm afraid that the first two points are still significant issues. If they're not obvious then the GM forum mods are doing a good job of applying live scoring rules and minimising the disruption to users - however, it remains a notable amount of work for them to achieve this, particularly during big events.

Regarding the fan base issue, yes every poster is equally important but it doesn't change the fact that bigger stars court more fans and they court more attention. This is going to lead to more discussion and it's not unreasonable to think that this kind of discussion should be open for all fan bases in GM, even if it's been started in a results thread. If Sharapova lost a match and the discussion of that result rapidly moved onto what she should do to improve her chances / change her game etc, where should it be - in GM or tournament forum ? There are cases to be made for both.


- about: That's not accurate, here's an interesting experiment: in GM, choose to show threads sorted by Thread start time, Ascending and show threads "From beginning". It will take several pages before you encounter a score-thread and you'll see that for several years, only a small portion of results had their threads. (On a side note, you'll also notice that the topics were quite tennis-centered at that time :p). I think it was only about 4 or 5 years ago that scores were systematically posted in dedicated threads. Once again, I'm not against it at all, it's informative and absolutely tennis-relevant, but I think that having them in the GM has a negative side effect to the readability of the GM forum.

I'll take your word for this. You and I have been on this board for a long time, you've clearly got a memory that stretches back further and more accurately than mine. I stand corrected ;).

- about: A forum is not meant to be a democracy. We don't have a say in whatever decision the board admins take, it's up to them and only them to decide what is best for the site. We only can make suggestions as I am doing now. If it is not sustained, I won't lose sleep nor quit the board.

I joined this forum from its early days, the least that I can say is that I'm not entirely happy of where it stands now, compared to a few years ago: Although the website itself has evolved very positively, the current content leaves a lot to be desired, IMO; so I'm just trying to contribute with ideas for improvement.

I agree that this forum is not what it used to be. However, proponents of change have to be aware that it will come with the price of greater regulation and enforcement of that regulation. Which is why it's important to gauge opinion on whether this intervention is actually worth the hassle of taking on resistance and not driving existing posters away from this site.

I wrote more but I drifted way off topic.

Tipp
Jun 18th, 2009, 06:32 PM
If Sharapova lost a match and the discussion of that result rapidly moved onto what she should do to improve her chances / change her game etc, where should it be - in GM or tournament forum ? There are cases to be made for both.


Neither. It belongs in the Sharapova sub-forum.

I agree with moving scores threads to another forum, don't care if it's the tournament or a new sub-forum. They clog up the place, especially around slams time, and 90% of the posts in them consist of:

"OMG, <winning player's name> well done! :bounce: :woohoo: :hearts:

<losing player's name>, :sad: :hug: hard luck"

It's even more annoying when someone posts some QF result from a $25k or whatever that nobody cares about.