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View Full Version : Hatred Towards the Williams- Existing or Not? and the factors behind it.


QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 05:35 PM
Threads like this coming from me would make a lot of posters :eek: . Specially posters who tag me as a Williams hater forever.

Existing Or Not?...... Before I would say a big NO, but now I kinda think there's hatred toward the Williams sisters. Mary Carillo can't hide personal dislike of them everytime she commentates. And now the very obvious french crowd dislike of them. Me personally, I thought I didn't hate Venus but now I admit what I was practicing before was all a product of my hatred towards her.

What are the factors why people hate them?

1. Race?------ personally, I would definitely say a BIG NO!!! I'm a minority myself. As for the french crowd, I believed racism does exist though.

2. They win a lot? envy?---- possibly, but why despite of their winning? they wont earn my respect? I used to hate Henin but still respect her greatness. Also Serena, I never hate her. It's just Venus whom I dont get it....

3. Their attitude? This I think contributed a lot. People root for champions who are humble and no matter how we sliced it, being humble was never a part of the Williams vocabulary. Williams cares just about winning and nothing else which I believed is the reason they are champions. They are angry!!! they want to put to our faces how good they are which obviously they are doing a great job of doing that, but do they earn our respect? honestly?


4. Was is the black people thmeselves who pushed us to hate them?

starin
May 29th, 2009, 05:45 PM
weren't there "race riots" in France not that long ago? :confused:


WS engender a lot of hatred and have done so since they first burst on the tour. I think the main reason behind the intensity of the hatred (if not the cause) is that most people thought they'd fail when they came on tour and then again after a horrendous 2004-2006 I think most thought that they were done and over. The thing that galls people the most is that they win when they're not supposed to.

shell
May 29th, 2009, 05:45 PM
Henin also was driven by anger and big desire to win. Probably also why she is so "hated' but respected on these boards.

I am not sure you can be the "best" in a sport and not be driven and full of yourself. How else do you weather the storms of wins and losses each week, year after year.

The Williams sisters are different, each has their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to tennis playing and personality. They will be forever remembered as great players. The other part is up to them to show what they want for the public. I think it is two factors, the routing for the underdog and the lack of humble behavior that keeps them from being loved by some fans. Serena more than Venus. What they would be without that attitude, I do not know. Venus would probably be the same, Serena would suffer without her intimidation factor possibly. In the end, they are driving their careers and are in control of what they want to portray. The wins and loses are what they will be. Fans or spectators of these events will think what they want.

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Nice thread,

Matt01 should be the first in here to tell us why he hates them.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Yes, having the anger and desire has a very big part on winning and dominance, however The williams sisters anger is coming from somewhere deeper. Justines's anger was regarding her family that is why when everything was settled regarding her family, her anger and desire subsides.
I really think Richard Williams suffered so much racism in the past and it his daughters which serves as his revenge and I personally believed this wont do good to both sisters except for keeping them motivated.

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Yes, having the anger and desire has a very big part on winning and dominance, however The williams sisters anger is coming from somewhere deeper. Justines's anger was regarding her family that is why when everything was settled regarding her family, her anger and desire subsides.
I really think Richard Williams suffered so much racism in the past and it his daughters which serves as his revenge and I personally believed this wont do good to both sisters except for keeping them motivated.

why do people always assume black people are angry?

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 06:04 PM
why do people always assume black people are angry?

Lol, good point. I am sure Richard had them pick up a racket to make something out of themselves, and to have a better life. It's not because he had hatred because of racism.

Helen Lawson
May 29th, 2009, 06:11 PM
I think you've hit a lot of the elements-they are Black, rich, not modest, and win a lot. And potentially even being female may hurt. Unfortunately, human nature being as it is, there is a lot to dislike in this combination. Sad but true. People will miss them when they're gone and not have fully appreciated the unabashed confidence, the wild outfits, etc., and yes, even their game. You think their tennis is ugly, in 10 years their tennis will seem like Justine or Mauresmo next to what will be winning then.

Beny
May 29th, 2009, 06:13 PM
There's the normal hatred...same as hatred against Sharapova, Ivanovic. It's normal here on this board

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Lol, good point. I am sure Richard had them pick up a racket to make something out of themselves, and to have a better life. It's not because he had hatred because of racism.

Richard had them pick up a racket cause he wanted money (but that's another topic).

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:15 PM
I think you've hit a lot of the elements-they are Black, rich, not modest, and win a lot. And potentially even being female may hurt. Unfortunately, human nature being as it is, there is a lot to dislike in this combination. Sad but true. People will miss them when they're gone and not have fully appreciated the unabashed confidence, the wild outfits, etc., and yes, even their game. You think their tennis is ugly, in 10 years their tennis will seem like Justine or Mauresmo next to what will be winning then.

so true.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 06:25 PM
why do people always assume black people are angry?
I said Richard Williams and not all black people.

gmokb
May 29th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Somehow I don't think the sisters are missing sleep over people lack of love/respect for them.

Uranus
May 29th, 2009, 06:40 PM
I think you've hit a lot of the elements-they are Black, rich, not modest, and win a lot. And potentially even being female may hurt. Unfortunately, human nature being as it is, there is a lot to dislike in this combination. Sad but true. People will miss them when they're gone and not have fully appreciated the unabashed confidence, the wild outfits, etc., and yes, even their game. You think their tennis is ugly, in 10 years their tennis will seem like Justine or Mauresmo next to what will be winning then.
I can't believe it. If this is a factor, it's a shame in the 2000s.

chloe-l
May 29th, 2009, 06:46 PM
I think you've hit a lot of the elements-they are Black, rich, not modest, and win a lot. And potentially even being female may hurt. Unfortunately, human nature being as it is, there is a lot to dislike in this combination. Sad but true. People will miss them when they're gone and not have fully appreciated the unabashed confidence, the wild outfits, etc., and yes, even their game. You think their tennis is ugly, in 10 years their tennis will seem like Justine or Mauresmo next to what will be winning then.

:wavey:

Vlover
May 29th, 2009, 06:49 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:
I agree with you. It would take twice a much hardwork for a minority ( black,asian,not whites) to earn the respect compare to a white player.
However, why on earth they love Arthuir Ashe so much in America? Billy jean, Andre adores him!

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:

I agree 100%

treufreund
May 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Fans don't like ANY PLAYER who behaves with what you refer to as self-belief. Others (including myself) see it as arrogance. For example, when a certain Serena Williams refuses to acknowledge that her opponents deserve the top ranking that she worked hard for. Or when she lost to Justine due to "lucky shots". :rolleyes:

treufreund
May 29th, 2009, 07:06 PM
The French crowds love Stephanie Foretz, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, Gael Monfils (as annoying as he is) and Yannick Noah. They are all black or half-black... It's not about race, it's about carriage.

jefrilibra
May 29th, 2009, 07:08 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:

:)

Uranus
May 29th, 2009, 07:12 PM
Guys, I'm sorry. I cannot believe they can be hated for being black. Never heard about it (and yeah, I read your threads everyday) and it hasn't even crossed my head at all it could be possible.

The Williams sisters are hated because they are the best and everyone's hoping someone can beat them. And Serena is extremely arrogant. IMO nothing more.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Fans don't like ANY PLAYER who behaves with what you refer to as self-belief. Others (including myself) see it as arrogance. For example, when a certain Serena Williams refuses to acknowledge that her opponents deserve the top ranking that she worked hard for. Or when she lost to Justine due to "lucky shots". :rolleyes:
I can't agree more with you also.
As Helen Lawson said, its a combination of these things which made up the sisters.

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 07:18 PM
I agree with you. It would take twice a much hardwork for a minority ( black,asian,not whites) to earn the respect compare to a white player.
However, why on earth they love Arthuir Ashe so much in America? Billy jean, Andre adores him!

Trust me, Ashe and Gibson were very hated during the time period. You think the sisters are hated now, it was worse for them. However, when you look back on history you have to paint an uplifting picture of the two stories. It wasn't all peaches and cream like you may think.

bobbynorwich
May 29th, 2009, 07:23 PM
Just because Mary Carillo and the insufferable French crowd don't like the Williams sisters doesn't mean that others feel the same. They are widely admired and treated with respect around the world.

It's probably true that Venus is more liked than Serena due to her gracious demeanor and attitude, but just because someone doesn't care for a person is a far cry from hating her.

I don't think the Williams sisters engender any more dislike by fans than many other players --- think Henin, Hingis, Roddick, Djokovic, Sharapova, Azarenka, or Nalbandian to name a few.

irma
May 29th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Guys, I'm sorry. I cannot believe they can be hated for being black. Never heard about it (and yeah, I read your threads everyday) and it hasn't even crossed my head at all it could be possible.

The Williams sisters are hated because they are the best and everyone's hoping someone can beat them. And Serena is extremely arrogant. IMO nothing more.

There are people in this world who hate people who have more or less melanin then others, or because they were born somewhere else. Of course it's very stupid, but it happens

That said an extravert person who speaks her mind and says controversial things like Serena will always face strong reactions.
You simply can't ignore her!

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 07:28 PM
I can't agree more with you also.
As Helen Lawson said, its a combination of these things which made up the sisters.

Serena and Venus do give credit to their opponent.

EVERY player has had interviews where they have said,"I didn't play my best today." "I feel like I was the better player out there today."

Even the sisters are not perfect and dont' think when they speak, BUT other players have also said the same things, and MUCH WORSE YET THEY GET A PASS!

People always expect for the sisters to bow down when they lose(and kiss butt)

Kipling
May 29th, 2009, 07:36 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:

If you are any color and display too much self-confidence, chances are you are going to be thought of as "uppity." There is no racial aspect to that. I dislike anyone who is arrogant, period. Confident is one thing, arrogant is another. And way too many times for my taste, the sisters have crossed that line. I have no problem with their belief that they are "No. 1". Nobody should be playing tennis at the pro level unless that is their goal. Well, except Brie Whitehead. OTOH, to constantly make transparent excuses for losses, like "she won because I hit a thousand errors" or "she hit tons of lucky shots" is disrespectful to others and demeans and degrades the game of tennis. Any fool knows that all of those players are out there trying their best in practice and matches. To put down those efforts and be as dismissive as I've seen them be is really off-putting.

Edit: I've seen some of the same kind of things from players like Petrova and Vaidisova and even JJ, and I dislike when they say them as well.

That's my $.02. I'm sure some joker will find a way to make me out as a "racist" but have at it. I said my peace.

ElusiveChanteuse
May 29th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Jealousy.

nhissan
May 29th, 2009, 07:45 PM
The French crowds love Stephanie Foretz, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, Gael Monfils (as annoying as he is) and Yannick Noah. They are all black or half-black... It's not about race, it's about carriage.

half black :confused:

Lucemferre
May 29th, 2009, 07:46 PM
Of course you hate Venus. She denied Lindsay 3 majors :lol:

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Nice thread,

Matt01 should be the first in here to tell us why he hates them.


:spit:

I don't hate anyone. Not even the WS.


It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".



I think you are confusing some things here. People who are "humble" will always be prefered over those who are perveived as "arrogant" or "insubordinate". Race has nothing to do with that.

And for the record, I am not denying that there are people who hate the WS because of their race. And that should not be taken lightly because racism is terrible. But on the other hand accusing someone of racism is a hard thing as well and I simply refuse to believe that the majority of people among the tennis fans who don't like the WS do so because of their race or that race plays a "main part" in that dislike.

Dave.
May 29th, 2009, 07:51 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:

Many players who are perceived as "uppity" are not well received by fans in general. That's nothing to do with race. I think some people on here use race as something to hide behind because they cannot accept their favourite player could possibly be disliked for any other reason.

I don't see how this so-called "tennis establishment" has anything to do with this. Who exactly are these people and what have they done to be ashamed of? Are the players (incl. WS) not part of this group?

LDVTennis
May 29th, 2009, 07:51 PM
You think their tennis is ugly, in 10 years their tennis will seem like Justine or Mauresmo next to what will be winning then.

Andrea Jaeger's game is still ugly after all of these years. If it isn't pretty now, time isn't going to make it any better looking 10 years from now, especially in the age of youtube.

nfl46
May 29th, 2009, 07:54 PM
All I can say is, I've been on this board nearly a day and a half, and I can tell a majority of these people strongly dislike Venus & didn't want her to win at the French Open. I'm basing this off what I've read since I've been here. It seems like some like Serena more than Venus, but I still see some hatred towards the William Sisters.

And where did these supposedly Szavay fans come from? If she wouldn't have played Venus some of y'all wouldn't even know if she is. :rolleyes:

And after Venus lost the first set @ that night match, it seem like most people counted her out and became fans of her opponent.

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 07:57 PM
If you are any color and display too much self-confidence, chances are you are going to be thought of as "uppity." There is no racial aspect to that. I dislike anyone who is arrogant, period. Confident is one thing, arrogant is another. And way too many times for my taste, the sisters have crossed that line. I have no problem with their belief that they are "No. 1". Nobody should be playing tennis at the pro level unless that is their goal. Well, except Brie Whitehead. OTOH, to constantly make transparent excuses for losses, like "she won because I hit a thousand errors" or "she hit tons of lucky shots" is disrespectful to others and demeans and degrades the game of tennis. Any fool knows that all of those players are out there trying their best in practice and matches. To put down those efforts and be as dismissive as I've seen them be is really off-putting.

Edit: I've seen some of the same kind of things from players like Petrova and Vaidisova and even JJ, and I dislike when they say them as well.

That's my $.02. I'm sure some joker will find a way to make me out as a "racist" but have at it. I said my peace.


If you dislike arrogant players in general that understandable. I would expect someone of that mentality to not support players who are perceived as being arrogant under any circumstance. However, in most cases the same white fans who hate the "arrogance" of the Williams sisters will support white players who are just as "arrogant". As a matter of fact, some posters on this very board have excused the actions of their favorite white player but call the Williams sisters everything under the sun. So, apparently melanin has everything to do with it. It's just the fact that you guys are afraid to acknowledge it and would rather pretend like it's all paranoia.:)

Serenita
May 29th, 2009, 08:03 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:
I agree 100%

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 08:04 PM
Serena and Venus do give credit to their opponent.

EVERY player has had interviews where they have said,"I didn't play my best today." "I feel like I was the better player out there today."

Even the sisters are not perfect and dont' think when they speak, BUT other players have also said the same things, and MUCH WORSE YET THEY GET A PASS!

People always expect for the sisters to bow down when they lose(and kiss butt)
EXACTLY!

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 08:09 PM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

The way race has always been dismissed as a contributing factor is more or less a defense mechanism for many because it is too uncomfortable to face. I think when they finally retire and reflect on what they have been through they will certainly be proud that they came through with dignity and have nothing to be ashame of. With the tennis establishment especially in the US, I doubt the same can be said.

Anyway, I'm truly a totally proud and happy fan. I'm glad they are still toughening it out especially since most of their contemporaries have called it quits.:worship: Fight on girls to the end!:hearts:
:worship::worship::worship:

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 08:12 PM
It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

not true, I love Gael because he's confident and always enjoy watching his game.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 08:13 PM
Of course you hate Venus. She denied Lindsay 3 majors :lol:
Nice try! but NO!!!
Serena denied her more than Venus did.

I think, I just dont like Venus for being cold and I think in my case, Venus fans had a lot to do with it also.

Lets go back to the topic: I'm talking about the tennis fans/players in general.
I know race has a part in it, but I believed it's very little. Neither winning that turns to envy. Was steffi hated? Monica? Evert? Navratilova?
I dont think the sisters are even popular in the locker room either. it's really their attitude, their aura.

Vlover
May 29th, 2009, 08:21 PM
If you are any color and display too much self-confidence, chances are you are going to be thought of as "uppity." There is no racial aspect to thatObviously you have very little or no concept of the context of the word "uppity". It is no secret that black Americans have to always try and mask their self confidence and never be perceived as angry regardless of what is being said or thrown at at them. When their white counterparts display the same qualities and sometimes even more dramatized it is more readily accepted in every area of life.

I won't even get into the whole "give credit" and other statements because most of the time there are so many contradictions in the people who are stating them.

I'm not interested in having a raging battle over this because I think the Williams have fought the race battle valiantly and have conquered. I'll just continue to revel in their continued accomplishments and you all can continue with your raving malice.

BTW the same people who loved Ashe also respect and love the Sisters. Why do you think BJK gets so much love and respect from Venus? It is being reciprocated.

Vlover
May 29th, 2009, 08:43 PM
I am not denying that there are people who hate the WS because of their race.[/B] And that should not be taken lightly because racism is terrible. But on the other hand accusing someone of racism is a hard thing as well and I simply refuse to believe that the majority of people among the tennis fans who don't like the WS do so because of their race or that race plays a "main part" in that dislike.
If they are not in tennis where the hell are they hiding then? Why is there always such an hostile environment, when there is nothing else that one can point to that the Sisters have done on court but compete fairly at all times.:tape: I'm just not convinced that race isn't the central part of it.

If you dislike arrogant players in general that understandable. I would expect someone of that mentality to not support players who are perceived as being arrogant under any circumstance. However, in most cases the same white fans who hate the "arrogance" of the Williams sisters will support white players who are just as "arrogant". As a matter of fact, some posters on this very board have excused the actions of their favorite white player but call the Williams sisters everything under the sun. So, apparently melanin has everything to do with it. It's just the fact that you guys are afraid to acknowledge it and would rather pretend like it's all paranoia.:)
Those are the said contradictions I was referring to in my previous post.

taevaughn
May 29th, 2009, 08:46 PM
i think vee and ree have a lot of haters cuz they win a lot. and i really think that a lot of jealousy comes from them not playing that much but still winning a lot. i mean look at how much janky plays and she still doesnt have anything close to what vee and ree have in titles. (i know that theyve played a lot longer than janky)

duhcity
May 29th, 2009, 08:52 PM
i think vee and ree have a lot of haters cuz they win a lot. and i really think that a lot of jealousy comes from them not playing that much but still winning a lot. i mean look at how much janky plays and she still doesnt have anything close to what vee and ree have in titles. (i know that theyve played a lot longer than janky)

I love Venus as she's calm and collected, and a great model for the younger girls.

But Serena can come off as a pretentious bitch at times (EX. The Real Number one losing a day after she says so).

bobbynorwich
May 29th, 2009, 08:54 PM
It's a myth that there's any more dislike of Venus or Serena compared to the majority of players. If they were widely disliked, they'd have no endorsements --- the real litmus test of a player's popularity.

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 08:57 PM
Lol, good point. I am sure Richard had them pick up a racket to make something out of themselves, and to have a better life. It's not because he had hatred because of racism.
Richard had them pick up a racquet because in 1978, he saw Virginia Ruzici get handed a check for $32,000 after she won.....wait for it.....Roland Garros. According to legend, he threw away Oracene's birth control pills, conceived Venus and Serena, taught himself tennis by reading books and watching tapes, and you probably already know the rest.

blamoh
May 29th, 2009, 09:10 PM
If the thread starter happens to read this post, one thing I
want to know from him is, he said he is also a minority, where
does he come, what is his race?
This guy hates the williams from every post he writes on this
board, and sincerely admitted his dislike of the williams
particularly Venus. He is one of those who promotes the racial
issues on this board. Why the administrator could not ban
this guy from this board long ago.

Volcana
May 29th, 2009, 09:12 PM
There's an awful lot of short-term thinking going on in this thread. Anybody who frequented tennis forums ten years ago, (which, obviously, pre-dates this board) would probably have to concede there was an awful lot of racism expressed. AOL closed their tennis board altogether, it got so bad. Lotta n-word, lotta 'they deserve to be raped', belief it or not, this board is something of a model of decorum, compared to the late nineties.

However, looking back six to ten years, one might also recall that then, there were quite a few threads about how American tennis crowds were always against V&S, and how much better they were treated outside the country.

The people who think race has nothing to do with a lot fans dislike of the Williams sister are delusional. The people who think race is the ONLY reason a lot fans dislike of the Williams sister are myopic. This is not new.

Muhammed Ali may be the most beloved athlete on the planet today. Fifty Forty years ago, he was without doubt, the most hated athlete in white America. Things change.

CloudAtlas
May 29th, 2009, 09:20 PM
I feel people make excuses for them.Those who harp on about it being racist , when told that Gael Monfils is very popular despite being black, say that it's because they're confident. When told that Monfils is probably even more "arrogant" in a sense than them on court (as in doesn't even take his opponet seriously at times and plays casually) they then say it's because they're female.

There are plenty of black athletes in the world who lead their sport but the WS are apparently the only ones for whom racism is still the issue according to some people on here. Odd that isn't it? I don't know why people can't accept that some people just don't like certain players , nothing to do with race or gender (if it was gender then I don't what the heck they're doing watching WTA in the first place) and more to do with their personalities.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 09:35 PM
If the thread starter happens to read this post, one thing I
want to know from him is, he said he is also a minority, where
does he come, what is his race?
This guy hates the williams from every post he writes on this
board, and sincerely admitted his dislike of the williams
particularly Venus. He is one of those who promotes the racial
issues on this board. Why the administrator could not ban
this guy from this board long ago.
I was trying to ignore this post, but what the heck!
Tell me when I was racist?
I hate Venus, period....... not because of her race, but mainly because of her fans like you.
I never hated Serena.
I started this thread to admit to myself that hatred towards the sisters does exist and I'm trying to get others opinion where is this hatred coming from. As for me, I can conclude it now. My hatred towards Venus comes from her fans like you, well 90% of my hatred. Well maybe I really dont hate Venus, maybe I just hate her fans.

Now, if you can't add anything valuable to this discussion, please dont bother.

Amanda
May 29th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Lindsay loves Venus and Serena!

supergrunt
May 29th, 2009, 09:38 PM
nothing new

supergrunt
May 29th, 2009, 09:40 PM
I love Venus as she's calm and collected, and a great model for the younger girls.

But Serena can come off as a pretentious bitch at times (EX. The Real Number one losing a day after she says so).

can you still be considered pretentious after winning 10 slams? :(

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Lindsay loves Venus and Serena!
I know Lindsay and Serena get along very well.
I know she is civil with Venus.
I know also that Serena is friendly with some WTA stars like Kuzi.
I dont know about Venus, Never heard of her any stories which will make me think she is that close to anyone except her sister.

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Muhammed Ali may be the most beloved athlete on the planet today. Fifty years ago, he was without doubt, the most hated athlete in white America. Things change.
Fifty years ago, no one outside of Louisville, KY even knew who he was; he was a 17-year-old kid who was two years away from his Olympic gold medal. The hatred came in 1964, when he announced his conversion to Islam after beating Sonny Liston for the heavyweight title.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Fifty years ago, no one outside of Louisville, KY even knew who he was; he was a 17-year-old kid who was two years away from his Olympic gold medal. The hatred came in 1964, when he announced his conversion to Islam after beating Sonny Liston for the heavyweight title.
50 years ago, things changed as you have said.
Now it's different. 50 years ago, you hardly see black person in government offices, but now you have the President.

djul14
May 29th, 2009, 10:07 PM
weren't there "race riots" in France not that long ago? :confused:


WTH is happening here.
You killing me, WHERE did you hear the riots happened because of "race", GOD I don't know on which channel you're watching the news, but please choose a different one:o
I dislike them only because they are so pretentious, find a transcript of one of their press conference after a loss, there you will have the answer, no need to talk about race:rolleyes:

bandabou
May 29th, 2009, 10:09 PM
Andrea Jaeger's game is still ugly after all of these years. If it isn't pretty now, time isn't going to make it any better looking 10 years from now, especially in the age of youtube.

Been waiting for you.. one thing I find curious, you always profess that's all about looking beautiful/graceful when playing tennis that makes you like a player or not.

Your favs: Evert, Mandlikova, Graf..Federer (till Nadal showed us that the game modeled after Graf is actually pretty beatable...in fact that the same claim you make for irritating yourself watching Navratilova: she wasn't that good, she was just taking advantage of the lack of athleticism in the women's field,etc..) Nadal (after he started beating Federer, thrumping and twarting Federer with superior athletic abilities... showing that in fact Graf did take advantage of the lack of athleticism on the women's field too, just as Navraytilova did! :eek:)

But that aside..Nadal doesn't like graceful AT ALL while playing tennis..it's all labored and forced. Yet he still ended up being your current favorite. Interesting.

bandabou
May 29th, 2009, 10:11 PM
It's cool..doesn't matter. People will hate, people will love..that's the way it is. Not one to blame everything on racism. But to deny that it doesn't exist, is foolish.

terjw
May 29th, 2009, 10:26 PM
These are the things Serena does and says which makes her just about about my least favourite player.

Whining about fines
Withdrawing from tournaments time and time again at the last minute (and then seeing pictures sufing at a beach)
Begrudging statements after losing - the famous one was she played some lucky shots.
Downplaying Jelena and Dinara achievements reaching #1 pointedly saying "I'm the real #1"
She's not really fan friendly a lot of the time - like refusing autographs - just the opposite to my favs Kim and Jelena.
Lack of desire to play for her country - appalling Fed Cup participation record.
Overly aggresive fans every time she is not praised 100% saying no other player gets hate or that she is injured if beaten while happily dismissing other players achievements and saying they are faking it when they are injured. Also a few who play the race card as the motive for anyone who says anything against her.Quite enough reasons for me not to like her whether she was black, white, red or green or successful or not successful. It's these things above she does or says.

Then there's Richard:
A wife beater - who seems to have this us against the world chip on his shoulder and playing the race card. His comments about Chris Evert were a disgrace.

I don't like Venus sometimes - her comments sometimes when she loses - like when she lost against Kim at USO 05 her excuse was that it was because Kim played "kind of weird and bad". But she's OK - she nowhere near gives so many reasons to dislike her as her sister.

And finally Oracene - she's great.

That's my opinion anyway - I don't speak for others.

terjw
May 29th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Fifty years ago, no one outside of Louisville, KY even knew who he was; he was a 17-year-old kid who was two years away from his Olympic gold medal. The hatred came in 1964, when he announced his conversion to Islam after beating Sonny Liston for the heavyweight title.

His conversion to Islam and his name change made no difference at all to whether I hated him or loved him. I actually hated him at first as Cassius Clay as a big mouth and he was so lucky saved by the bell when he got knocked down by Henry Cooper.

So in fact I hated him then (Cassius Clay) - but later I loved him when he became World Heavyweight champion (Muhammed Ali): His fights with Frazier and Foreman. And all his fast talking - floats like a butterfly stings like a bee and the gorilla in Manilla. Great stuff. And when he got interviewed by Michael Parkinson - Parkinson didn't stand a chance with anything he tried to say or question :lol:

Serenita
May 29th, 2009, 11:23 PM
^^ yo should read his book.
some time ago, some poster compared Serena with donkey kong. and i think you can still find this post on the board.
i mean, you would have to be blind to think, that Vee and Ree arent discriminated against.

Xanadu11
May 29th, 2009, 11:39 PM
I think in tennis circles there are probably X ammount of reasons why some people don't like them, ie they beat their faves all the times and its nice to support the underdog (the black girls from the hood) but when they surpass your expectations people don't like it. I have always felt Venus and Serena have not been given enough credit. They are SISTERS who have not just both done well but excelled, dominated, played each other in finals, we've never seen it in tennis or even sport generally. I can bet you if it was two Sharapovas it would be all we were hearing about.

But generally though just from my personal anecdotal experience I think race has alot to do with it. Alot of people I know, people who I have gone to the tennis with or chatted about just have this unexplained dislike of Venus and Serena and I think race is a definite part of it. People tend to be ambivalent about Venus but there is something about Serena which people find threatening and I think it definitely has something to do with race. She is so physically imposing, constantly defy the odds and just is this potent force. All things which make people very popular in sport usually. I'm not saying V and S don't have their share of fans but I just FEEL this underlying current. Its nothing you can prove with evidence, my lovely liberal friends would be aghast if I even suggested it but its just what I feel.

Vlover
May 30th, 2009, 12:11 AM
QUEENLINDSAY;15759591 My hatred towards Venus comes from her fans like you, well 90% of my hatred. Well maybe I really dont hate Venus, maybe I just hate her fans.
I would hope you had the maturity to distinguish a player from individual fans. I can never comprehend such a mentality. I don't think it is rational critical thinking to dislike someone by projection your feelings for someone else onto that person.:( That would be mob mentality.

I might not care for you as a fan of Lindsay but I would never project my feelings for you onto Lindsay. Conversely there are players I don't care for and yet there are fans of the player I like. Also because I'm Williams fan doesn't mean I approve of the mentality of all the fans. Each individual deserve to be judged on their own merits.

I was under the impression that only juveniles think this way, due to their need for acceptance by their peers but obviously I'm wrong.:devil:

Yohime
May 30th, 2009, 12:55 AM
I've been observing the posts made in this board and I think one of the major reasons why people on this board hate the WS is because their fans are very angry all the time and too sensitive to every comment that could be miscontrued as remotely negative about the WS. Every time Henin opens her mouth, the WS fans act as if she had just shot Serena in the stomach and then spit into her face while laughing. 10 pages of how much they hate her (even though Henin was talking about Safina stepping up and said nothing about WS). A bit too much overreaction to something that wasn't even about the WS.

bobbynorwich
May 30th, 2009, 01:00 AM
These are the things Serena does and says which makes her just about about my least favourite player.

Whining about fines
Withdrawing from tournaments time and time again at the last minute (and then seeing pictures sufing at a beach)
Begrudging statements after losing - the famous one was she played some lucky shots.
Downplaying Jelena and Dinara achievements reaching #1 pointedly saying "I'm the real #1"
She's not really fan friendly a lot of the time - like refusing autographs - just the opposite to my favs Kim and Jelena.
Lack of desire to play for her country - appalling Fed Cup participation record.
Overly aggresive fans every time she is not praised 100% saying no other player gets hate or that she is injured if beaten while happily dismissing other players achievements and saying they are faking it when they are injured. Also a few who play the race card as the motive for anyone who says anything against her.Quite enough reasons for me not to like her whether she was black, white, red or green or successful or not successful. It's these things above she does or says.

Then there's Richard:
A wife beater - who seems to have this us against the world chip on his shoulder and playing the race card. His comments about Chris Evert were a disgrace.

I don't like Venus sometimes - her comments sometimes when she loses - like when she lost against Kim at USO 05 her excuse was that it was because Kim played "kind of weird and bad". But she's OK - she nowhere near gives so many reasons to dislike her as her sister.

And finally Oracene - she's great.

That's my opinion anyway - I don't speak for others.
Agree, except regarding statements about Venus, she's become very gracious in defeat and a wonderful ambassador for the sport. People love Venus ... Serena, not so much. Nothing to do with race, that's for sure.

AcesHigh
May 30th, 2009, 01:03 AM
Well.. I can understand why some people hate Serena. I can see why some hate Venus too to an extent.

It's okay.. it happens. Athletes are hated.. it's sports. I hate Kobe's guts. I hate A-Rod. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way and I'm sure they both have a lot of fans. Is it because I hate black people or hispanics? Of course not.

Some fans on this board only add to the reasons why posters dislike the sisters. They're paranoid. Denise, G1Player, court70 can be ridiculous at times. Same with Sharapova. The Mashabators get on people's nerves also and Sharapova shares a lot of hate among tennis fans. Is it because she's white or Russian? No. People have reasons and usually they're fine and have nothing to do with race or gender.

LDVTennis
May 30th, 2009, 02:47 AM
Been waiting for you.. one thing I find curious, you always profess that's all about looking beautiful/graceful when playing tennis that makes you like a player or not.

Your favs: Evert, Mandlikova, Graf..Federer (till Nadal showed us that the game modeled after Graf is actually pretty beatable...in fact that the same claim you make for irritating yourself watching Navratilova: she wasn't that good, she was just taking advantage of the lack of athleticism in the women's field,etc..) Nadal (after he started beating Federer, thrumping and twarting Federer with superior athletic abilities... showing that in fact Graf did take advantage of the lack of athleticism on the women's field too, just as Navraytilova did! :eek:)

But that aside..Nadal doesn't like graceful AT ALL while playing tennis..it's all labored and forced. Yet he still ended up being your current favorite. Interesting.

Look at the problem a bit more closely.

Category I, Graceful players - Evert, Mandlikova, Graf, Federer
Category II, Graceful players with dynamic forehands - Graf and Federer
Category III, Players with dynamic forehands - Graf, Federer, Nadal
Category IV, Players with dynamic forehands who are one of a kind athletes - Graf and Nadal

It's clear why I like Graf. She appears in all four categories. I like Nadal because he appears in the the last category. I value players in the last category slightly more than players in Category II.

The athleticism I reference in Category IV can sometimes make up for lack of graceful movement. Some of Nadal's shots may seem in your words "labored and forced," but his athleticism on the forehand has a certain art to it.

tennisvideos
May 30th, 2009, 03:10 AM
It doesn't matter how anyone wants to deny it or masquarade it as something else but those of us who are honest knows that race coupled with the attitude of self belief is the main part of it. It is without question, if you are black and display too much self confidence you are going to be perceived as "uppity" and will never be accepted by the majority of whites. Those who are perceived to be "humble" and "walk the line" will always be preferred over those who are considered "uppity".

I think I tend to agree with this statement in today's society. I see a parallel with Diana Ross, who is my all time favourite performer. I believe she has suffered greatly at the hands of the media and peers because she is black, successful, displays tremendous confidence and knows what she wants. I see this with the Williams sisters as well. I guess the world likes to support the humble and the under-dogs more - it's just human nature.

Personally, I love them and they have brought so much to the sport and I know I will miss them greatly when they are no around. How bland will the womens tour be then?

Orbis
May 30th, 2009, 03:13 AM
90% Envy I guess. And perhaps some of the things they say, their confidence, beating other people's favourites, whatever.

Vegeto
May 30th, 2009, 04:17 AM
Threads like this coming from me would make a lot of posters :eek: . Specially posters who tag me as a Williams hater forever.

Existing Or Not?...... Before I would say a big NO, but now I kinda think there's hatred toward the Williams sisters. Mary Carillo can't hide personal dislike of them everytime she commentates. And now the very obvious french crowd dislike of them. Me personally, I thought I didn't hate Venus but now I admit what I was practicing before was all a product of my hatred towards her.

What are the factors why people hate them?

1. Race?------ personally, I would definitely say a BIG NO!!! I'm a minority myself. As for the french crowd, I believed racism does exist though.

2. They win a lot? envy?---- possibly, but why despite of their winning? they wont earn my respect? I used to hate Henin but still respect her greatness. Also Serena, I never hate her. It's just Venus whom I dont get it....

3. Their attitude? This I think contributed a lot. People root for champions who are humble and no matter how we sliced it, being humble was never a part of the Williams vocabulary. Williams cares just about winning and nothing else which I believed is the reason they are champions. They are angry!!! they want to put to our faces how good they are which obviously they are doing a great job of doing that, but do they earn our respect? honestly?


4. Was is the black people thmeselves who pushed us to hate them?

people's hatred toward others comes majorly from their backgrounds. You'd better analyze "what kind of people who hate the Williams?"
Everyone can be hated for doing anything, whether right or wrong, good or bad. All the facts you stated for the WS is just there, race, wining, attitude, black. Some will love, some will hate, some will just be ok.

actually, what i want to say is that the haters hate someone because of themselves, not by the way someone acts.

Vlover
May 30th, 2009, 12:18 PM
I see a parallel with Diana Ross, who is my all time favourite performer. I believe she has suffered greatly at the hands of the media and peers because she is black, successful, displays tremendous confidence and knows what she wants. I see this with the Williams sisters as well. I guess the world likes to support the humble and the under-dogs more - it's just human nature.

It is always a very thin line to walk for successful black Americans. Great self confidence is required to succeed but if you display it you are precieved to be "uppity". Therefore to get the "approval" of most whites you have to surpress your confidence as much as possible and wait for them to validate you and be accepted.

Blatant racism may be on the decline but it is very much below the surface just waiting for an excuse to raise its head and when it does it is very ugly.

serenus_2k8
May 30th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Venus has won more gold medals than many players have won slams. Of course people hate the Williams when they are constantly thrashed by them.

Its the sign of a champion that they generate so much envy for their talent and achievements.

aguy9797
May 30th, 2009, 01:34 PM
it is all about personality, nobody likes self-centered, arrogant divas

Petersmiler
May 30th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Let he who hath no sin cast the first stone. I don't like quoting that particularly loathsome book but sometimes it has something constructive to say.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Overly aggresive fans every time she is not praised 100% saying no other player gets hate or that she is injured if beaten while happily dismissing other players achievements and saying they are faking it when they are injured. Also a few who play the race card as the motive for anyone who says anything against her.



Some fans on this board only add to the reasons why posters dislike the sisters. They're paranoid. Denise, G1Player, court70 can be ridiculous at times. Same with Sharapova. The Mashabators get on people's nerves also and Sharapova shares a lot of hate among tennis fans. Is it because she's white or Russian? No. People have reasons and usually they're fine and have nothing to do with race or gender.

Hating someone because of the actions of people their fans--something they have ZERO control over- is idiotic and irrational; every bit as irrational as hating someone over their skin color. Whenever someone says this, I assume they're either not very bright or lying to themselves.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 02:06 PM
There's an awful lot of short-term thinking going on in this thread. Anybody who frequented tennis forums ten years ago, (which, obviously, pre-dates this board) would probably have to concede there was an awful lot of racism expressed. AOL closed their tennis board altogether, it got so bad. Lotta n-word, lotta 'they deserve to be raped', belief it or not, this board is something of a model of decorum, compared to the late nineties.

However, looking back six to ten years, one might also recall that then, there were quite a few threads about how American tennis crowds were always against V&S, and how much better they were treated outside the country.

The people who think race has nothing to do with a lot fans dislike of the Williams sister are delusional. The people who think race is the ONLY reason a lot fans dislike of the Williams sister are myopic. This is not new.

Muhammed Ali may be the most beloved athlete on the planet today. Fifty years ago, he was without doubt, the most hated athlete in white America. Things change.

Good post.

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 02:08 PM
No one hate them.They're universally loved.

Olórin
May 30th, 2009, 02:09 PM
I find it fascintating how some people are using actions and words from this board as an actual reference point for explaining a real-world phenomenon.

Quixotic.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 02:11 PM
I find it fascintating how some people are using actions and words from this board as an actual reference point for explaining a real-world phenomenon.

Quixotic.

You assume people's words and actions here are not indicative of how they really feel?

This is the largest women's tennis board on the net; it serves as a good sample imo.

Volcana
May 30th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Fifty years ago, no one outside of Louisville, KY even knew who he was;Sorry. Bad math. I subtracted 1969 from 2009 and got 50 instead of the correct 40.

Rocketta
May 30th, 2009, 02:27 PM
The French crowds love Stephanie Foretz, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, Gael Monfils (as annoying as he is) and Yannick Noah. They are all black or half-black... It's not about race, it's about carriage.


I don't really care about this topic but I had to point out the :bs: in this post. Using this logic, slave masters who stuck there penises in every black woman on their plantation weren't racist. Using that logic every slave owner who let their babies suck on the tit of their black nannies weren't racist. :rolleyes: Just because people are willing to root for someone who represents their country, ie further their view that their country and way of life is somehow the reason for their success, doesn't mean they are somehow not racist. I'm sure there were plenty of racists rooting Jessie Owens on against Germany, doesn't mean when he came home they would've let him eat on their plates. If those players mentioned were not french and the french crowd loved them then maybe you would've had a point but since they are local it's a moot point. Especially if you're trying to claim they don't like Serena because she's arrogant well then it would make no sense that they would even give monfils the time of day. :bs: Unless your point is they only like black players if they don't win shit like your examples. :shrug:

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 02:30 PM
I don't really care about this topic but I had to point out the :bs: in this post. Using this logic, slave masters who stuck there penises in every black woman on their plantation weren't racist. Using that logic every slave owner who let their babies suck on the tit of their black nannies weren't racist. :rolleyes: Just because people are willing to root for someone who represents their country, ie further their view that their country and way of life is somehow the reason for their success, doesn't mean they are somehow not racist. I'm sure there were plenty of racists rooting Jessie Owens on against Germany, doesn't mean when he came home they would've let him eat on their plates. If those players mentioned were not french and the french crowd loved them then maybe you would've had a point but since they are local it's a moot point. Especially if you're trying to claim they don't like Serena because she's arrogant well then it would make no sense that they would even give monfils the time of day. :bs: Unless your point is they only like black players if they don't win shit like your examples. :shrug:

I wish I could rep this post twice.

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 02:33 PM
I don't really care about this topic but I had to point out the :bs: in this post. Using this logic, slave masters who stuck there penises in every black woman on their plantation weren't racist. Using that logic every slave owner who let their babies suck on the tit of their black nannies weren't racist. :rolleyes: Just because people are willing to root for someone who represents their country, ie further their view that their country and way of life is somehow the reason for their success, doesn't mean they are somehow not racist. I'm sure there were plenty of racists rooting Jessie Owens on against Germany, doesn't mean when he came home they would've let him eat on their plates. If those players mentioned were not french and the french crowd loved them then maybe you would've had a point but since they are local it's a moot point. Especially if you're trying to claim they don't like Serena because she's arrogant well then it would make no sense that they would even give monfils the time of day. :bs: Unless your point is they only like black players if they don't win shit like your examples. :shrug:

A french racist doesn't consider Blacks (be it Tsonga, Monfils, or the guy on the street) a "true" french citizen.He wants them to be kicked out of the country and won't cheer for a Black player even if he's "representing" his country.

Nice try tho.

Br'er Rabbit
May 30th, 2009, 02:34 PM
Some poster said he/she disliked the WS because of the actions of their fans...what are you five? That's the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. You have no other reason to dislike them but to actually say people on a interent forum is to reason why you dislike them.

Rocketta
May 30th, 2009, 03:11 PM
A french racist doesn't consider Blacks (be it Tsonga, Monfils, or the guy on the street) a "true" french citizen.He wants them to be kicked out of the country and won't cheer for a Black player even if he's "representing" his country.

Nice try tho.

oh really is that what all the french racists told you? What you have them all on speed dial and asked them their opinion? :lol:

I would like to say nice try but really it wasn't. :shrug:

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 03:35 PM
oh really is that what all the french racists told you? What you have them all on speed dial and asked them their opinion? :lol:

I would like to say nice try but really it wasn't. :shrug:

I live in France and yes I met quite a lot of french racists in my life.Can you say the same ? Doubt it...

Infiniti2001
May 30th, 2009, 03:37 PM
I doubt the Williams are losing any sleep over this :shrug:

Monica_Rules
May 30th, 2009, 03:57 PM
I think hatred towards the sisters does exist.

Personally i'm not a big fan of either but i can totally appreciate what they have done for tennis and their greatness. I have a bigger soft spot for Venus as i just get the feeling that shes a warmer person. She is totally focused on court but off court she seems like a hoot.

Would they be more liked if they were white? Maybe, who knows.

killercars
May 30th, 2009, 04:04 PM
I think the French crowd naturally cheers for the underdog in most matches (except when a French player is involved). Also, Serena's attitude is horrible since she always tries to bully or intimidate her opponent.

Has anyone noticed that usually when her opponent is at the net, Serena tries to hit her with the ball as hard as she can? It's a lot more obvious during the Williams sisters' double matches. It may be a legal play, but hardly one that is embraced by the crowds.

AcesHigh
May 30th, 2009, 04:27 PM
Hating someone because of the actions of people their fans--something they have ZERO control over- is idiotic and irrational; every bit as irrational as hating someone over their skin color. Whenever someone says this, I assume they're either not very bright or lying to themselves.

It's a SPORT! People don't need rational reasons to dislike a player. A lot of people hated the New York Yankees because they thought their fans were obnoxious.

And I said it ADDS to the reasons..not is the sole reason.

I live in France and yes I met quite a lot of french racists in my life.Can you say the same ? Doubt it...

:lol: OWNED

terjw
May 30th, 2009, 04:35 PM
It's a SPORT! People don't need rational reasons to dislike a player. A lot of people hated the New York Yankees because they thought their fans were obnoxious.

And I said it ADDS to the reasons..not is the sole reason.



:lol: OWNED

Exactly.

Rocketta
May 30th, 2009, 04:49 PM
I live in France and yes I met quite a lot of french racists in my life.Can you say the same ? Doubt it...

If you think the only people who willingly talk about dislike of one's race is the only type of racist there is in France then you are sadly mistaken. If you think by knowing 'some' racists gives you a handle on all French 'racists' that's your opinion but I'd bet you don't. I have no doubt there is quite a faction of verbal French racists who want everyone not like them thrown out of France? Have I said otherwise? Does that mean they are they only type of racists that exist in France? Does that mean they are the only racists in France is that what you are saying? Either you state you want all minorities thrown out of your country and are racist or you don't state that then you're not racist? Is that how people are divided in France? :lol:

Btw, I'm not French and don't want to be. I've known a racist in my life time.... those that want you harm and those that think it's just natural to feel that you are less then them based on your race. If you think those two type of people react, and speak about people of other races in the same way then oh well. Wait, are you saying French racists are somehow special and are completely different than other other racist in the world and you have to know them intimately before you can really know a french racist? :lol:

Well next time you talk to all these French 'racists' you know so intimately tell them it's not a good look. ;)

Rocketta
May 30th, 2009, 04:56 PM
:lol: OWNED

:lol: owned because he feels like he knows all what all french racists think. Ok :lol: That's about as much as a generalization as if he said 'the french crowd is racist. I know because I live in france and have talked to racists in the crowd. :cuckoo:

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 04:57 PM
What's so funny is that posters who have displayed unambiguously racist tendencies in the political subforum are now defending the FO crowd. Hysterical.

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 05:27 PM
If you think the only people who willingly talk about dislike of one's race is the only type of racist there is in France then you are sadly mistaken. If you think by knowing 'some' racists gives you a handle on all French 'racists' that's your opinion but I'd bet you don't. I have no doubt there are quite a faction of verbal French racists who want everyone not like them thrown out of France? Have I said otherwise? Does that mean they are they only type of racists that exist in France? Does that mean they are the only racists in France is that what you are saying? Either you state you want all minorities thrown out of your country and are racist or if you don't state that then you're not? Is that how people are divided in France? :lol:

Btw, I'm not French and don't want to be. I've known a racist in my life time.... those that want you harm and those that think it's just natural to feel that you are less then them based on your race. If you think those two type of people react, and speak about people of other races in the same way then oh well. Wait, are you saying French racists are somehow special and are completely different than other other racist in the world and you have to know them intimately before you can really know a racist? :lol:

Well next time you talk to all these French 'racists' you know so intimately tell them it's not a good look. ;)

You were the one standing as an "expert" of racists of any kind in you r answer to treufreund, not me.I just pointed out that I have a little more experience than you when talking about racists in France.There would be a lot to discuss but I won't start a debate on all this cause these last few days, GM has been hijhacked by all this shitty talk.

I reacted to a specific point tho (before you tried to make it a conf on racism behaviors) : your first claim was that the French crowd (supposedly full of racists)cheer for their players (like Tsonga or Monfils)because they're representing their country.My opinion on this is that racists don't cheer for Blacks players and don't think that they're (nor than their beloved country)represented by Blacks, Asiats, Arabs, metis of any sort etc...They would prefer a Tsonga or Monfils to lose against any white player (no matter his country)than see them win (and it kinda makes sense from the racist point of view lol).
The french crowd at FO is NOT composed of a majority of racists (and the few "hidden" ones will be booing Tsonga and Monfils as much as Serena or Venus)and in their matches, Serena and Venus weren't booed more than some other players in the past or even this year (see Azarenka for example).

Rocketta
May 30th, 2009, 05:41 PM
You were the one standing as an "expert" of racists of any kind in you r answer to treufreund, not me.I just pointed out that I have a little more experience than you when talking about racists in France.There would be a lot to discuss but I won't start a debate on all this cause these last few days, GM has been hijhacked by all this shitty talk.

I reacted to a specific point tho (before you tried to make it a conf on racism behaviors) : your first claim was that the French crowd (supposedly full of racists)cheer for their players (like Tsonga or Monfils)because they're representing their country.My opinion on this is that racists don't cheer for Blacks players and don't think that they're (nor than their beloved country)represented by Blacks, Asiats, Arabs, metis of any sort etc...They would prefer a Tsonga or Monfils to lose against any white player (no matter his country)than see them win (and it kinda makes sense from the racist point of view lol).
The french crowd at FO is NOT composed of a majority of racists (and the few "hidden" ones will be booing Tsonga and Monfils as much as Serena or Venus)and in their matches, Serena and Venus weren't booed more than some other players in the past or even this year (see Azarenka for example).


one, go back and reread my post... not once did I say the french crowd was or was not racist. Considering the initial presumption is completely off based I'll leave to the rest to the trash heap it belongs on.

Secondly, I've provided quite clear examples where racists will 'root' for or have quite close ties to people who they have racists views on contrasting the notion that a racist would never root for a player of another race. That notion is :bs: as history has proven otherwise. Unless you are claiming that french 'racists' are this new class of racists that no one in the world has ever seen, I don't get your point. :shrug:

Once again, is it your claim that ALL french racists are verbal with their racism? That ALL french racists verbalize their want of other races thrown out of the country and would have absolutely nothing to do with someone of another race including wishing them well when they are representing their country? :confused:

I don't know if the French crowd is racist and honestly I don't care in terms of Venus and Serena as long as the umpire and linesman aren't. Doesn't change the fact that through history some racists have rooted for people of different races when nationalism or other things are important to them. I doubt French people are any different. :shrug:

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 05:53 PM
one, go back and reread my post... not once did I say the french crowd was or was not racist. Considering the initial presumption is completely off based I'll leave to the rest to the trash heap it belongs on.

Secondly, I've provided quite clear examples where racists will 'root' for or have quite close ties to people who they have racists views on contrasting the notion that a racist would never root for a player of another race. That notion is :bs: as history has proven otherwise. Unless you are claiming that french 'racists' are this new class of racists that no one in the world has ever seen, I don't get your point. :shrug:

Once again, is it your claim that ALL french racists are verbal with their racism? That ALL french racists verbalize their want of other races thrown out of the country and would have absolutely nothing to do with someone of another race including wishing them well when they are representing their country? :confused:

I don't know if the French crowd is racist and honestly I don't care in terms of Venus and Serena as long as the umpire and linesman aren't. Doesn't change the fact that through history some racists have rooted for people of different races when nationalism or other things are important to them. I doubt French people are any different. :shrug:

Sorry but as I said, I won't be dragged in this debate.Maybe another time and in another context.

This FO is good :drool:, I'm enjoying it and already wasted too much of my time the past few days fueling some freaks's conspiracy theories(not talking about you).I prefer watching tennis and discuss matches than talking about wether or not Serena and venus are the most hated persons on earth.

bandabou
May 30th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Look at the problem a bit more closely.

Category I, Graceful players - Evert, Mandlikova, Graf, Federer
Category II, Graceful players with dynamic forehands - Graf and Federer
Category III, Players with dynamic forehands - Graf, Federer, Nadal
Category IV, Players with dynamic forehands who are one of a kind athletes - Graf and Nadal

It's clear why I like Graf. She appears in all four categories. I like Nadal because he appears in the the last category. I value players in the last category slightly more than players in Category II.

The athleticism I reference in Category IV can sometimes make up for lack of graceful movement. Some of Nadal's shots may seem in your words "labored and forced," but his athleticism on the forehand has a certain art to it.

Not may seem.. ARE labored and forced..if you go around calling Serena's movement/shots labored and forced, then do go play around acting like Nadal is all smooth and easy.

For the rest..so Nadal is your second favorite now..Graf and Nadal? :lol: Poor Hana...I guess WINNING A LOT matters more to you than just looking smooth, afterall!

HRHoliviasmith
May 30th, 2009, 08:39 PM
If you think the only people who willingly talk about dislike of one's race is the only type of racist there is in France then you are sadly mistaken. If you think by knowing 'some' racists gives you a handle on all French 'racists' that's your opinion but I'd bet you don't. I have no doubt there is quite a faction of verbal French racists who want everyone not like them thrown out of France? Have I said otherwise? Does that mean they are they only type of racists that exist in France? Does that mean they are the only racists in France is that what you are saying? Either you state you want all minorities thrown out of your country and are racist or you don't state that then you're not racist? Is that how people are divided in France? :lol:

Btw, I'm not French and don't want to be. I've known a racist in my life time.... those that want you harm and those that think it's just natural to feel that you are less then them based on your race. If you think those two type of people react, and speak about people of other races in the same way then oh well. Wait, are you saying French racists are somehow special and are completely different than other other racist in the world and you have to know them intimately before you can really know a french racist? :lol:

Well next time you talk to all these French 'racists' you know so intimately tell them it's not a good look. ;)

excellent, excellent, excellent post! :worship:

serenus_2k8
May 30th, 2009, 08:45 PM
I live in France and yes I met quite a lot of french racists in my life.Can you say the same ? Doubt it...

:help: Why you spend your time mingling with French racists is your own business tbh but you cant say that because you have met some French racists you now know what they all think is just wrong.

Its also funny you didnt bother mentioning this in the Pam Shriver thread were everybody was totally convinced that the French arent in any way racist and its all a media conspiracy :tape:

homogenius
May 30th, 2009, 09:04 PM
:help: Why you spend your time mingling with French racists is your own business tbh but you cant say that because you have met some French racists you now know what they all think is just wrong.

Its also funny you didnt bother mentioning this in the Pam Shriver thread were everybody was totally convinced that the French arent in any way racist and its all a media conspiracy :tape:

I said I met a lot of them (A strange thing happens to people who have a life other than on a message board : they meet others human beings.Crazy I know).I never said I was hanging around with them (nor did I say that I knew what they ALL have in their head).

And please stop lying.I did answer to one of your post in the other thread saying that there were racial issues in France blah blah

You seem to never get enough of this passionate topic : good for you, but as I stated earlier I'm tired of this shit.Find someone else to discuss it to no end (it won't be too difficult).

terjw
May 30th, 2009, 09:25 PM
A french racist doesn't consider Blacks (be it Tsonga, Monfils, or the guy on the street) a "true" french citizen.He wants them to be kicked out of the country and won't cheer for a Black player even if he's "representing" his country.

Nice try tho.

Y'know I like Tiger Woods, Lewis Hamilton, Muhammed Ali (but not when he was Cassius Clay) and many sportsmen of all colours. Gladiators a few years ago and I liked Saracen. And I wanted Obama to win the US election. But my least favourite player is Serena and I dislike Venus sometimes. I dislike Maria a lot of the time too along with all the shriekers.

But of course what do we get. The same old mantra that the reason anyone doesn't like the Williams is race. It's ridiculous but it's pointless arguing with them. They just repeat it's race race race on and on and on.

Malva
May 30th, 2009, 09:32 PM
«Hatred»? -- that's a big word.

Rooting for an underdog is easy to explain without calling for 'hatred'. And compared to them everybody is an 'underdog'. Serena and her older sister are so accomplished: their past achievemnets and the continuation of their form after Henin's departure sets them apart from the rest of the field.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 09:39 PM
«Hatred»? -- that's a big word.

Rooting for an underdog is easy to explain without calling for 'hatred'. And compared to them everybody is an 'underdog'. Serena and her older sister are so accomplished: their past achievemnets and the continuation of their form after Henin's departure sets them apart from the rest of the field.

Serena was not the favorite most of the times she played Henin in 07. The majority of the board seemed gleeful every time the WS lost to her.

Max565
May 30th, 2009, 09:45 PM
I dont think the 'hate' applies to Venus that much. She's loved all over... Serena not so much.

Hey, race could be a factor but I primarily think it's a combination of her gender and conspicuous/in-your-face display of pride, self-confidence, arrogance (whatever you want to call it) and competitiveness. People are just not that comfortable with a woman being so loud and brazen... but it seems to be fine with men (to a certain extent). And I'm not too sure if it's just down to race.

Look at Sharapova, she screams, grunts, fist pumps, does the loud c'mons and that really grates the French Crowd sometimes. I remember last year at Wimbledon when she lost against Alla K. I was there in the stadium and the general impression I felt was that the crowd not only wanted Alla, the underdog, to win but Sharapova, the seemingly stone-cold, uptight, overtly intense female, to lose. After the match, I could overhear people mocking Sharapova and her outfit (the tuxedo thing), they'd forgoten about the triumphant underdog but were preoccupied by the fall of the 'arrogant' champion.

I think it just has to do with society in general. When a man doesn't smile or laugh often, it's fine. But if a woman doesn't, she's apparently a bitch.