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court70
May 29th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Pam Shriver: Williams gets no love at French Open

The ESPN tennis commentator says there is a lack of support for Serena Williams at the tournament, which drags the tennis star down.
By DIANE PUCIN, On Sports Media
May 29, 2009
Good sports television brings an event to life. Good sports commentators bring context.

That's what ESPN's tennis crew does on a regular basis and no better than this week when former top-10 singles and doubles player Pam Shriver pointed out the lack of fan support Serena Williams receives at the French Open.Shriver noted that during Williams' first-round escape from Klara Zakopalova of the Czech Republic, the crowd was clearly in Zakopalova's corner and that it wasn't the first time. "Serena doesn't get much support here," Shriver said. "I think it drags her down."

It was just a couple of sentences, but Shriver's notation of the atmosphere was appropriate because it validated what seemed obvious yet unreasonable.

"I hear that lack of support here more than any other place," Shriver said from Paris. "And I don't have a good reason that explains it."

She said the easy conclusion might be racism but noted that French fans have embraced French players of African ancestry such as Yannick Noah, Gael Monfils and Jo-Wilfried Tsongas. And it's hard to argue anti-Americanism when the French fans embrace Andy Roddick in the same way they seem to love Jerry Lewis -- for no logical reason.

"There's an undertone of a lot of things," Shriver said. "Maybe it's a combination of gender; maybe they've observed something about her fighting spirit that doesn't suit their eye, but it's very clear to me that the fan reaction here drags her down."

In a video of her post-match news conference, Williams was asked, "What do you think of the atmosphere? She was the underdog, and they seemed to be for her. It was a heightened atmosphere. Was it enjoyable despite the fact that most of the people were pulling for her?"

Williams was seen pausing for a moment before answering in a monotone. "It was what it was," she replied. "They don't really pull for me a lot here. That's fine."



http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-sports-media29-2009may29,0,1357901.story

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 03:31 PM
nice read, and to think some were angry that the williams had ONE person cheering for them Lol.

azinna
May 29th, 2009, 03:34 PM
I've been to the French Open several times. Very hard to psychologically assess a pretty mixed crowd of folks at the RG, which can consist of various classes, nationalities, political perspectives, etc... Race, per se, can't be dismissed. Or better yet: the mix of race and gender and being American and being aggressive/"masculine" and not being an underdog.....that'll likely get you some lukewarm support at RG, unless you really try to work the crowd and play to their softer side.

Double Fault
May 29th, 2009, 03:40 PM
Does the same thing happen during the Paris indoor tournament?

RenaSlam.
May 29th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Best way to shut them up (or force them to cheer for you) is to win the whole thing.

Do it, Serena.

Kipling
May 29th, 2009, 03:45 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.

There's an easy answer to this--how did they react to that black figure skater several years ago--I forget her name. Something like Bonaly I think. She was French. Were they supportive of her? I'm asking.

Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans. Sometimes it's for good reason, other times not. But Maria--and I know she is Russian but she is so Americanized that it is easy to think of her as an American--also faces hostility from the French crowd. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very evident.

I just think the French don't care for American players much.

azinna
May 29th, 2009, 03:45 PM
Does the same thing happen during the Paris indoor tournament?

Good question. Are they the same crowd? Been to Bercy several times, too, and got a different vibe/experience. For all players. Don't recall any booing or cheering subpar play.

The Witch-king
May 29th, 2009, 03:48 PM
It does kind of suck the way EVERY other top player gets support but the Williams. When Federer was down against Acasuso it was like a funeral, so i don't buy that "underdog" theory. But then i think that's what makes them so special- the fact that they manage to produce even when most are against them. It's quite inspiring actually.

The Witch-king
May 29th, 2009, 03:57 PM
There's an easy answer to this--how did they react to that black figure skater several years ago--I forget her name. Something like Bonaly I think. She was French. Were they supportive of her? I'm asking.

Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans. Sometimes it's for good reason, other times not. But Maria--and I know she is Russian but she is so Americanized that it is easy to think of her as an American--also faces hostility from the French crowd. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very evident.

I just think the French don't care for American players much.

people always say this (about being american) but does that make it ok? How would you feel if people were against you because of the country you are from? Or if at the US Open crowds were cheering against Tsonga or Mauresmo simply because they are french (no matter the opponent)?

They seem to have a bit of a mentality that Williams have some unfair advantage and the opponents require a crowd to even the balance. It reminds me of a mob mentality actually.

QUEENLINDSAY
May 29th, 2009, 03:58 PM
French crowd just doesn't like them period............................................ ....

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:04 PM
pffh, I think serena gets huge applaud during presentation and she leaves the match. she's one of the few players they know.
i remmeber she particpated in a french tv show "le grand journal" and there was a great atmosphere.
seriously, now that mauresmo is out of the radar, there's no problem.
and french don't like winners, that's why they like roger. because he always loose to rafa.
another reason is that women tennis is not as liked as mens tennis . look at Madrid few days ago.

HRHoliviasmith
May 29th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.

basically.

azinna
May 29th, 2009, 04:06 PM
There's an easy answer to this--how did they react to that black figure skater several years ago...Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans..

This is certainly a factor. And Serena did make those comments right before the 2003 French Open. But I doubt it explains everything (again the crowd is made up of a mix of folks). I wonder what their reception of Capriati has been like.

...They seem to have a bit of a mentality that Williams have some unfair advantage and the opponents require a crowd to even the balance. It reminds me of a mob mentality actually.

From discussing the Williams sisters with many casual fans in Paris, this is certainly a factor. Race, being American (always winning, and without "style," nuance or "intelligence") and being masculine/aggressive are several notions at play when they describe Venus and Serena.

Doesn't mean that they're no Roland Garros fans of the Williams sisters!

Marshmallow
May 29th, 2009, 04:06 PM
It might be the large belgian contigent that make up a significant portion of the FO crowd. Rochus played some french player and got a LOUD STANDING OVATION for the win.

But I mention that because Henin was practically adopted by the crowd. I remember the Henin V Serena match of 07, and in the second game, Serena just thought about challenging a call, she started inquisitively and there was a grumble from the crowd and a few boos. I honestly thought ligthening was going to emanate from the stands.

Like Pam, I also noticed that Serena was getting no support, mentioned it on the boards, only to be told it was not that bad. :rolleyes: Too many austistic posters around here I tell you.

But without a crowd darling like Henin, Serena can probably handle cold receptions. Plus with the support of Richards girlfriend... she should go far :lol:

Marshmallow
May 29th, 2009, 04:06 PM
French crowd just doesn't like them period............................................ ....

True.

SvetaPleaseWin.
May 29th, 2009, 04:08 PM
shes a black american woman who screams a lot and thinks shes the fuckin shit (which she is).
hence dislike from the frogs.

Double Fault
May 29th, 2009, 04:09 PM
When Serena won the FO in '02 didn't she speak a few words in French during the presentation?

I thought the Parisiens appreciated people who try to speak French. Obviously not.

HRHoliviasmith
May 29th, 2009, 04:10 PM
shes a black american woman who screams a lot and thinks shes the fuckin shit (which she is).
hence dislike from the frogs.

now this made me laugh. too funny. :haha:

CoolDude7
May 29th, 2009, 04:13 PM
True.

x2

Kipling
May 29th, 2009, 04:13 PM
people always say this (about being american) but does that make it ok? How would you feel if people were against you because of the country you are from? Or if at the US Open crowds were cheering against Tsonga or Mauresmo simply because they are french (no matter the opponent)?

They seem to have a bit of a mentality that Williams have some unfair advantage and the opponents require a crowd to even the balance. It reminds me of a mob mentality actually.

I don't disagree, but my point is, I do not think it is a race issue. It's a nationalism issue.

Polikarpov
May 29th, 2009, 04:16 PM
It can't be racism because the French crowd hates several other players who isn't black. I think it's just that if they don't like you, then they DON'T like you.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:18 PM
i really felt ashamed to be french when serena was humiliated by the crowd, so i really pay attention to the crowd attention. it is OK, she has fans and the rest of the public respect her. they won't do a standing ovation just because she's serena williams :shrug: when she wins great shots there are WOW! i think she is more applauded than pushers alize or gilles. at least she makes the show. she's a star and the crowd appreciate that.

comfortably.numb
May 29th, 2009, 04:18 PM
Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans. Sometimes it's for good reason, other times not. But Maria--and I know she is Russian but she is so Americanized that it is easy to think of her as an American--also faces hostility from the French crowd. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very evident.
I agree with this to a point. What do Serena and Maria have in common in their on court behavior? They're both aggressive, strong, outspoken and pretty cold towards whoever is playing on the other side of the net. They're also winners who typically don't take any shit from anybody. Not to mention they are both very "Americanized." I didn't see the crowd being really hostile towards Maria until her match 2007 against Patty and even last year against Dinara (ALLEZ UP YOUR FUCKING ASSHOLE :hearts: ) when they booed her and whatnot. They're also both kind of arrogant. All that combined just makes them unlikable to the French crowd. Who cares though. I love it when they win and rub it all up in the crowd's face. Awesome shit.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:20 PM
i agree martina, sharapova, serena are seen as arrogant ( personnally i don't think serena is).

Sally Todd
May 29th, 2009, 04:20 PM
The crowd is colder to Venus and Serena than it is to the American men.

There are all kinds of factors, beginning with fundamental prejudices and then adding everything from "the hand" to yesterday's hilarity with Safarova.

There's also a bit of stylistic judging -- they've hated Sharapova too.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Theres hell loads of racism in France. You only have to drive a few miles to the outskirts of Paris into ''les banlieues'' where the vast majority of people are black, there is looooads of tension between the white police and non white residents, high unemployment, high rate of immigrants, high rate of drop outs etc. etc.

The French care very little for non-whites, hence there were the riots in 05 and 07 after tension between the police and the ethnic minorities boiled over. Anyone studying French or with a good grasp of the sociodemographic characteristics within France, and particularly in Paris would understand this. I could easily divulge a bit of history in the area, but no doubt it will fall on the deaf ears of the haters anyway, as does all other logic.

jefrilibra
May 29th, 2009, 04:27 PM
Theres hell loads of racism in France. You only have to drive a few miles to the outskirts of Paris into ''les banlieues'' where the vast majority of people are black, there is looooads of tension between the white police and black residents, high unemployment, high rate of immigrants, high rate of drop outs etc. etc.

The French care very little for non-whites, hence there were the riots in 05 and 07 after tension between the police and the ethnic minorities boiled over. Anyone studying French or with a good grasp of the sociodemographic characteristics within France, and particularly in Paris would understand this. I could easily divulge a bit of history in the area, but no doubt it will fall on the deaf ears of the haters anyway, as does all other logic.

THIS!!!

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Theres hell loads of racism in France. You only have to drive a few miles to the outskirts of Paris into ''les banlieues'' where the vast majority of people are black, there is looooads of tension between the white police and non white residents, high unemployment, high rate of immigrants, high rate of drop outs etc. etc.

The French care very little for non-whites, hence there were the riots in 05 and 07 after tension between the police and the ethnic minorities boiled over. Anyone studying French or with a good grasp of the sociodemographic characteristics within France, and particularly in Paris would understand this. I could easily divulge a bit of history in the area, but no doubt it will fall on the deaf ears of the haters anyway, as does all other logic.

stop with your cliché! france is not more racist than UK or US!
there are not more ghettos in france than in UK or US!
:help::help::help::help::help::help::help:

tennnisfannn
May 29th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Pam Shriver: Williams gets no love at French Open


She said the easy conclusion might be racism but noted that French fans have embraced French players of African ancestry such as Yannick Noah, Gael Monfils and Jo-Wilfried Tsongas. And it's hard to argue anti-Americanism when the French fans embrace Andy Roddick in the same way they seem to love Jerry Lewis -- for no logical reason.

"
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-sports-media29-2009may29,0,1357901.story
They have no choice but to appreciate tsonga/gael. If the likes of Gasquet/mathieu really stepped up they too would be on the outskirts like america did with the sisters whilst they had lindsay/seles/capriati. he WS were better appreciated when the other girls stopped bring home the glory.

Veritas
May 29th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Williams was seen pausing for a moment before answering in a monotone. "It was what it was," she replied. "They don't really pull for me a lot here. That's fine."

She's affected by not being the fan favourite - it's clear from the words there, despite the denial.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 04:34 PM
stop with your cliché! france is not more racist than UK or US!
there are not more ghettos in france than in UK or US!
:help::help::help::help::help::help::help:

We havent had 2 big riots since 05 in UK or in the US tho, sorry mate :hug:

RFSTB
May 29th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Maybe the crowd was just rooting for the underdog? It's not like they booed Serena.

I did notice that the attendance was very sparse at Venus' match against Safarova, at least the first half.

One thing for sure they'll never get as much support as they do at home.

I'm hoping for a Serena/Sharapova matchup at some point.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:36 PM
We havent had 2 big riots since 05 in UK or in the US tho, sorry mate :hug:

so what? how many people in the world suffer but just shut their mouths! or the media don't care about them?

Kipling
May 29th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Theres hell loads of racism in France. You only have to drive a few miles to the outskirts of Paris into ''les banlieues'' where the vast majority of people are black, there is looooads of tension between the white police and non white residents, high unemployment, high rate of immigrants, high rate of drop outs etc. etc.

The French care very little for non-whites, hence there were the riots in 05 and 07 after tension between the police and the ethnic minorities boiled over. Anyone studying French or with a good grasp of the sociodemographic characteristics within France, and particularly in Paris would understand this. I could easily divulge a bit of history in the area, but no doubt it will fall on the deaf ears of the haters anyway, as does all other logic.

The chip-on-the-shoulder mentality doesn't make you any more credible, FYI. Since you brought it up, please continue.

Do you have an explanation as to why this allegedly racist crowd cheers wildly for other black athletes?

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Maybe the crowd was just rooting for the underdog? It's not like they booed Serena.

I did notice that the attendance was very sparse at Venus' match against Safarova, at least the first half.

One thing for sure they'll never get as much support as they do at home.

I'm hoping for a Serena/Sharapova matchup at some point.

At some point? Serena isnt just gonna pop over to Mashas draw :lol: No way would Maria take out Safina in the SF. If Dinara makes the SF, she will be in the final.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:38 PM
i've seen kookie vs serena, and there was a good atmosphere. so i don't see what you're talking about. it was history. or did i miss something?

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 04:39 PM
When Serena won the FO in '02 didn't she speak a few words in French during the presentation?

I thought the Parisiens appreciated people who try to speak French. Obviously not.

She also mocked the French by saying with a mock French accent, "We don't want to play in the war; we want to make clothes."

That doesn't exactly help.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 04:39 PM
so what? how many people in the world suffer but just shut their mouths! or the media don't care about them?

Totally irrelevant.

The chip-on-the-shoulder mentality doesn't make you any more credible, FYI. Since you brought it up, please continue.

Do you have an explanation as to why this allegedly racist crowd cheers wildly for other black athletes?

FYI, there is no chip on my shoulder, as I am not a black frenchman ;)

I dont recall mentioning the crowd in my post? And which female black athletes do you know that the crowd cheers for?

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:40 PM
serena has a great attitude on court, she's fair play, so i'm not sure the crowd would support maria more than serena :o

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 04:40 PM
She also mocked the French by saying with a mock French accent, "We don't want to play in the war; we want to make clothes."

That doesn't exactly help.

:lol: The French were more involved in the war than the Americans, (initially that is) its just a shame they sorta surrendered :tape:

Anabelcroft
May 29th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the person,not with her being black or American...

Double Fault
May 29th, 2009, 04:48 PM
She also mocked the French by saying with a mock French accent, "We don't want to play in the war; we want to make clothes."

That doesn't exactly help.
:eek: Thank you. I did not know what she said during the presentation.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 04:52 PM
:lol: The French were more involved in the war than the Americans, (initially that is) its just a shame they sorta surrendered :tape:

it's not the french who helped the talibans against the sovietic threat:o.
and french are so racist that yannick noah is the favourite famous personnality. rama yade is one of the favourite politician.

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 04:52 PM
:lol: The French were more involved in the war than the Americans, (initially that is) its just a shame they sorta surrendered :tape:

Surrendered? Is that how things are being twisted now, instead of just admitting that going to Iraq was a bit mistake and that the French were right when they said there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

And which female black athletes do you know that the crowd cheers for?

Chanda Rubin got cheers.

But then you always get the response that that doesn't count because she wasn't a top player.

Mention black French players and you get the response that doesn't count because they're French.

Mention James Blake and you get the response that that doesn't count because he's male.

And here I thought racism referred to race and not to black female American top players only.

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 04:52 PM
:eek: Thank you. I did not know what she said during the presentation.

That wasn't during the presentation, obviously! She said that in an interview.

HRHoliviasmith
May 29th, 2009, 04:54 PM
She also mocked the French by saying with a mock French accent, "We don't want to play in the war; we want to make clothes."

That doesn't exactly help.


and how many years ago was that? she has since apologized. that's not it.

Double Fault
May 29th, 2009, 04:56 PM
That wasn't during the presentation, obviously! She said that in an interview.
Ah, I see. :)

Londoner
May 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM
After 99 Hingis was also unpopular at RG. I don't think it's racism. It bothers me when people always jump to that. There was a time when both Venus and Serena were popular at RG. I just think people have seen them so often they're no longer a novelty as htey do seem to have been around an eternity!

gmokb
May 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Its a combination of things but mainly race. Of course they support the black French players, male and female(if one was around). They are so hungry for a French to win and will ignore the colour of the skin for that. Serena should be used to this by now and grow a thick skin, win the damn thing and run it in her faces.

timafi
May 29th, 2009, 04:58 PM
I don't know how many times Amelie complained about the lack of support so the idea by Shriver is absolute shit:rolleyes:


funny how people on this board assume that everyfuckingbody seating on Chatrier is French:rolleyes:

Kipling
May 29th, 2009, 05:00 PM
FYI, there is no chip on my shoulder, as I am not a black frenchman ;)

I dont recall mentioning the crowd in my post? And which female black athletes do you know that the crowd cheers for?

I know for a fact they were behind Mashona Washington when she was on the verge of beating Sharapova.

And no, you didn't mention the crowd, but that was the jist of your post. You suggested racism tacitly in the comments you made but then backed off when challenged to point to some modicum of evidence. FWIW, I do not doubt that racism exists in the world--by Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims and everyone else. However, to date, I have seen absolutely no evidence of it in tennis.

Merely because a commentator says something unflattering about a black player doesn't make him/her a racist, yet we hear this BS ALL THE TIME on this forum. How Mary Carillo is a racist because she says something critical about poor Serena or poor Venus. Well guess what--she says the same damn things about Pova, Jankovic, Ivanovic and the rest of all of Bijoux's "Great White Hyped Nation."

I don't mean to be taking this out on you, specifically. I consider you to be one of the more rational supporters of the Williams sisters on this board, and I do read and consider your posts, even if I do not always agree with them. It's more of a general rant I've been wanting to get off of my chest for a long time. There are a number of posters here who literally think the Williamses are faultless, can do no wrong, and anyone who criticizes them must be motivated by racism. And that is plain wrong. Their unremitting arrogance alone makes them disliked by many. So maybe the plain simple fact of the matter is that the French crowd just plain old does not like them. How's that for a scientific answer to Pam's question?

I've never seen either of sisters booed by the French crowd. Honestly. They put up with the same crowd support other players have to face against them when the US Open is played.

yassiesj20
May 29th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Its a combination of things but mainly race. Of course they support the black French players, male and female(if one was around). They are so hungry for a French to win and will ignore the colour of the skin for that. Serena should be used to this by now and grow a thick skin, win the damn thing and run it in her faces.

Exactly:worship::worship:

Renalicious
May 29th, 2009, 05:02 PM
They remember when she dominated in 2002 and just didn't like it. :shrug: Since then, the 03 SF match didn't help, and also she is quite the confident character and I don't think her American confidence just suits well with the Parisian personality. :shrug:

améliemomo
May 29th, 2009, 05:05 PM
well I dont think williams must mean AUTOMATIC LOVE:rolleyes:

american/french relationship lol

very complex one:p

yassiesj20
May 29th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I know for a fact they were behind Mashona Washington when she was on the verge of beating Sharapova.

And no, you didn't mention the crowd, but that was the jist of your post. You suggested racism tacitly in the comments you made but then backed off when challenged to point to some modicum of evidence. FWIW, I do not doubt that racism exists in the world--by Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims and everyone else. However, to date, I have seen absolutely no evidence of it in tennis.

Merely because a commentator says something unflattering about a black player doesn't make him/her a racist, yet we hear this BS ALL THE TIME on this forum. How Mary Carillo is a racist because she says something critical about poor Serena or poor Venus. Well guess what--she says the same damn things about Pova, Jankovic, Ivanovic and the rest of all of Bijoux's "Great White Hyped Nation."

I don't mean to be taking this out on you, specifically. I consider you to be one of the more rational supporters of the Williams sisters on this board, and I do read and consider your posts, even if I do not always agree with them. It's more of a general rant I've been wanting to get off of my chest for a long time. There are a number of posters here who literally think the Williamses are faultless, can do no wrong, and anyone who criticizes them must be motivated by racism. And that is plain wrong. Their unremitting arrogance alone makes them disliked by many. So maybe the plain simple fact of the matter is that the French crowd just plain old does not like them. How's that for a scientific answer to Pam's question?

I've never seen either of sisters booed by the French crowd. Honestly. They put up with the same crowd support other players have to face against them when the US Open is played.

You were doing so well until this point:rolleyes:

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:06 PM
Surrendered? Is that how things are being twisted now, instead of just admitting that going to Iraq was a bit mistake and that the French were right when they said there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?



Chanda Rubin got cheers.

But then you always get the response that that doesn't count because she wasn't a top player.

Mention black French players and you get the response that doesn't count because they're French.

Mention James Blake and you get the response that that doesn't count because he's male.

And here I thought racism referred to race and not to black female American top players only.

Wow we are soooo not going into the politics of the Iraq war, thank you very much. The bottom line is there are huge problems with racism in the areas around Paris (thats where this tournament is held, btw) and that speaks for itself, so then when you get a majority white crowd that seem against Serena, it doesnt take a genius to put 2 and 2 together. Many ''racists'' are not the huge extremists that you seem to think they are. A lot of people may seem totally not racist until they feel threatened by the success of a person with different skin colour.

There are no other black players that are a genuine threat to take the title, hence the crowd doesnt like Serena. Also, the other black players havent had the same success as Serena and Venus.

You dont have to be a genius to understand there are a lot of people who look totally past the champion in Venus and Serena and are desperate for them to lose.

starin
May 29th, 2009, 05:10 PM
i think Pam is right about the Female part and fighting loudly and aggressively.
Cuz Sharapova is not American and she doesn't get that much love at Paris either.

I don't think it's the underdog thing cuz even when Serena is the underdog she gets no love here.

Olórin
May 29th, 2009, 05:10 PM
RG 2002
S Williams USA def. M. Pierce FRA 61 61

RG 2003
S. Williams USA def. A. Mauresmo FRA 61 62

:shrug:

I jest, there obviously is no 'single answer' to why Serena is such a non-crowd favourite. It probably is, to a certain extent, her perceived arrogance, probably also her nationality, most likely her success, arguably her race too. Certainly all these things combined don't earn her many fans at RG.

She certainly doesn't look like becoming a favourite there any time soon, and sometimes it is an issue. How they cheer her errors is often ridiculous.

RenaSlam.
May 29th, 2009, 05:11 PM
The French crowd is so fickle and can turn on any player at any given time.

Who cares what they think/do/support.

debopero
May 29th, 2009, 05:11 PM
I love Pam Shriver

Radix2
May 29th, 2009, 05:12 PM
There's an easy answer to this--how did they react to that black figure skater several years ago--I forget her name. Something like Bonaly I think. She was French. Were they supportive of her? I'm asking.

Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans. Sometimes it's for good reason, other times not. But Maria--and I know she is Russian but she is so Americanized that it is easy to think of her as an American--also faces hostility from the French crowd. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very evident.

I just think the French don't care for American players much.

The skater's name is Suria Bonaly. The French never supported they claimed it was because her adopted mother, who is white was pushy.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:12 PM
I know for a fact they were behind Mashona Washington when she was on the verge of beating Sharapova.

And no, you didn't mention the crowd, but that was the jist of your post. You suggested racism tacitly in the comments you made but then backed off when challenged to point to some modicum of evidence. FWIW, I do not doubt that racism exists in the world--by Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims and everyone else. However, to date, I have seen absolutely no evidence of it in tennis.

Merely because a commentator says something unflattering about a black player doesn't make him/her a racist, yet we hear this BS ALL THE TIME on this forum. How Mary Carillo is a racist because she says something critical about poor Serena or poor Venus. Well guess what--she says the same damn things about Pova, Jankovic, Ivanovic and the rest of all of Bijoux's "Great White Hyped Nation."

I don't mean to be taking this out on you, specifically. I consider you to be one of the more rational supporters of the Williams sisters on this board, and I do read and consider your posts, even if I do not always agree with them. It's more of a general rant I've been wanting to get off of my chest for a long time. There are a number of posters here who literally think the Williamses are faultless, can do no wrong, and anyone who criticizes them must be motivated by racism. And that is plain wrong. Their unremitting arrogance alone makes them disliked by many. So maybe the plain simple fact of the matter is that the French crowd just plain old does not like them. How's that for a scientific answer to Pam's question?

I've never seen either of sisters booed by the French crowd. Honestly. They put up with the same crowd support other players have to face against them when the US Open is played.

Im always the first to say that Venus and Serena do have an attitude that will piss people off, particularly people who have other faves , but when V&S play at Wimb or the AO, there is always a sense of respect between the crowd and the WS for their awesome achievements in the game, that they just dont have in the French. I dont think its strictly to race and I dont think all French people are racist, I am actually extremely fond of the French and France in general, but tension in Paris between ethnic minorities and ''Les Francais de Souche'' that I think is in the back of the minds of the French. Its difficult to explain really, but I think they are far harsher on V&S than they have been of other players, even the other Americans and I dont think its solely due to their attitude as the majority of tennis fans dont read the interviews and articles that TF posters do.

starin
May 29th, 2009, 05:13 PM
RG 2002
S Williams USA def. M. Pierce FRA 61 61

RG 2003
S. Williams USA def. A. Mauresmo FRA 61 62

:shrug:

I jest, there obviously is no 'single answer' to why Serena is such a non-crowd favourite. It probably is, to a certain extent, her perceived arrogance, probably also her nationality, most likely her success, arguably her race too. Certainly all these things combined don't earn her many fans at RG.

She certainly doesn't look like becoming a favourite there any time soon, and sometimes it is an issue. How they cheer her errors is often ridiculous.
Serena got booed really badly after winning that match and she didn't really do anything wrong like questioning calls or arguing w/ the umpire,etc all she did was be intense and win that match.

Optima
May 29th, 2009, 05:15 PM
I agree with the nationality part. I think it's the biggest part. Maybe race plays a small part in it, but if the crowd doesn't like you, they just don't like you.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Serena got booed really badly after winning that match and she didn't really do anything wrong like questioning calls or arguing w/ the umpire,etc all she did was be intense and win that match.

Yet when other white champions show huge intensity (Henin for example, and yeh I get that she was adopted by the crowd but still) its just the sign of a great champion. When its Ree its because shes a brute and unfeminine etc.

Optima
May 29th, 2009, 05:17 PM
Yet when other white champions show huge intensity (Henin for example, and yeh I get that she was adopted by the crowd but still) its just the sign of a great champion. When its Ree its because shes a brute and unfeminine etc.

I really do think it's being American though. And her attitude of "being the best", whatever. They liked Justine because she was Belgian :shrug:

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:20 PM
I really do think it's being American though. And her attitude of "being the best", whatever. They liked Justine because she was Belgian :shrug:

I think being American definitely adds to it. I dont get why the French hate the American? I guess there were things like the Guez canal crisis and the high Muslim population in France that were pissed bowt the Iraq war. Is it deeper than that?

I know its not the easiest position for GB trying to be part of the EU while maintaining links with America (which the Brits seem far more keen on :lol:)

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the person,not with her being black or American...

Yeah I think the main reason for the lack of support is that she is perceived as a little too arrogant and "in your face".
That's the kind of behavior that may appeal to Americans but not to most French people.
In France normal and encouraged behavior = being quite reserved.
Different countries. Different mentalities. Different tastes.
As simple as that.
On the other hand Venus is not perceived as arrogant and so the crowd is not automatically against her.
Another factor is that most people are also influenced by what is said on TV - and I must say that in the past French commentators were rather critical of both Venus and Serena's game ... but I think the "boring games" argument was just an alibi and that they just don't like them.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:24 PM
Yeah I think the main reason for the lack of support is that she is perceived as a little too arrogant and "in your face".
That's the kind of behavior that may appeal to Americans but not to most French people.
In France normal and encouraged behavior = being quite reserved.
Different countries. Different mentalities. Different tastes.
As simple as that.
On the other hand Venus is not perceived as arrogant and so the crowd is not automatically against her.
Another factor is that most people are also influenced by what is said on TV - and I must say that in the past French commentators were rather critical of both Venus and Serena's game ... but I think the "boring games" argument was just an alibi and that they just don't like them.

Monfils and Tsonga are two of the most in your face players Ive ever seen, so I dont think thats right tbh.

The boring bit is probs more right, they dont play spectacular clay court tennis, but that shouldnt mean theyre disliked really.

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 05:28 PM
There are no other black players that are a genuine threat to take the title, hence the crowd doesnt like Serena. Also, the other black players havent had the same success as Serena and Venus.

You dont have to be a genius to understand there are a lot of people who look totally past the champion in Venus and Serena and are desperate for them to lose.

I'm sure there are people out there who don't want them to win because they're black.

But that doesn't mean that's the reason why the French crowd isn't behind them.

Read Diam's post, she's spot on.

(and for the record, most of the tensions between different cultures has to do with cultural differences rather than skin colour)

Olórin
May 29th, 2009, 05:30 PM
Monfils and Tsonga are two of the most in your face players Ive ever seen, so I dont think thats right tbh.


Well, it goes to show how counterproductive stereotyping is; because although they may not see themselves that way the French are often perceived as being an arrogant people and quasi-hedonistic, so not really reserved in that respect.

I think it's definitely more stylistic, and as I said a combination of factors.

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 05:37 PM
Wow we are soooo not going into the politics of the Iraq war, thank you very much. The bottom line is there are huge problems with racism in the areas around Paris (thats where this tournament is held, btw) and that speaks for itself, so then when you get a majority white crowd that seem against Serena, it doesnt take a genius to put 2 and 2 together. Many ''racists'' are not the huge extremists that you seem to think they are. A lot of people may seem totally not racist until they feel threatened by the success of a person with different skin colour.

There are no other black players that are a genuine threat to take the title, hence the crowd doesnt like Serena. Also, the other black players havent had the same success as Serena and Venus.

You dont have to be a genius to understand there are a lot of people who look totally past the champion in Venus and Serena and are desperate for them to lose.

LOL. I see we have another winner for the "french bashing" award!

Your analyses à la Fox News are so ridiculous that I won't waste my time responding to your posts.

But as a black girl living in France, I kindly ask you to STFU.:help:

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Wow we are soooo not going into the politics of the Iraq war, thank you very much. The bottom line is there are huge problems with racism in the areas around Paris (thats where this tournament is held, btw) and that speaks for itself, so then when you get a majority white crowd that seem against Serena, it doesnt take a genius to put 2 and 2 together. Many ''racists'' are not the huge extremists that you seem to think they are. A lot of people may seem totally not racist until they feel threatened by the success of a person with different skin colour.

There are no other black players that are a genuine threat to take the title, hence the crowd doesnt like Serena. Also, the other black players havent had the same success as Serena and Venus.

You dont have to be a genius to understand there are a lot of people who look totally past the champion in Venus and Serena and are desperate for them to lose.

I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about.

CloudAtlas
May 29th, 2009, 05:43 PM
All this "I'm not liked at tennis events because of my colour" nonsense is very 1960s and incredibly insulting to French people in general. As if you're no longer allowed to cheer for someone if they're white and their opponet is black because if you do you're racist. How incredibly ironic :rolleyes:

This self-victimisation attitude pissess me off big time. They just don't like her, period , nothing to do with her gender, colour, age, height , country, hair colour, sponsor company, bra size, body odour , sweat patches or anything else nonsensical.

-VSR-
May 29th, 2009, 05:47 PM
The French crowd blows, that's why.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 05:54 PM
LOL. I see we have another winner for the "french bashing" award!

Your analyses à la Fox News are so ridiculous that I won't waste my time responding to your posts.

But as a black girl living in France, I kindly ask you to STFU.:help:

I'm sorry but you just don't know what you're talking about.

You're both happy to be insulting, but neither of you have actually contributed any information of value. :shrug: Im not just speculating here, I have very good first hand experience, thank you :wavey:

Diam, your reason of ''shes in your face'' is bullshit, because the French are fond of other in your face players. I dont particularly believe you are a black girl living in France, but if you are you would know there are serious problems around Paris, as I myself am very aware :)

Thanks for your rudeness though, very mature and dare I say, very French ;)

kasia_q
May 29th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the person,not with her being black or American...

Exactly. It is amazing how people easily throw all kinds of stuff into the 'racism' box. :rolleyes:

Helen Lawson
May 29th, 2009, 05:57 PM
Who knows, they've been awful to Mary Pierce and ASV. They eat their own. I don't recall ever feeling the love from them for Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport, or even Jennifer Capriati. I think Andy Roddick is the only American they really like, I guess because he's girly like most European men so they think he's hot.

clementine
May 29th, 2009, 06:02 PM
If the French embraced her that would be a clear sign that she's dull and boring.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:04 PM
Who knows, they've been awful to Mary Pierce and ASV. They eat their own. I don't recall ever feeling the love from them for Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport, or even Jennifer Capriati. I think Andy Roddick is the only American they really like, I guess because he's girly like most European men so they think he's hot.

And he wears Lacoste :D

Thanks to ''timafi'' for his rep saying ''No wonder ur asses got bombed'' - strange you didnt have the guts to post that in open view so I thought I would do you the honour. I assume you are referring to the July 7 bombings? What a despicable, foul human being you really are.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:04 PM
You're both happy to be insulting, but neither of you have actually contributed any information of value. :shrug: Im not just speculating here, I have very good first hand experience, thank you :wavey:

I didn't insult you.I stand by what I said : you don't know what you're talking about (and your post was ALL speculation).
Since, you're talking about racism, I'd add that what you're doing (along with court70, bijoux and some others) since few days is almost as nocive as what some racists can do imo.

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 06:05 PM
Exactly. It is amazing how people easily throw all kinds of stuff into the 'racism' box. :rolleyes:

For some reason they think never ending "victim attitude" will get them somewhere :confused:

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:08 PM
I didn't insult you.I stand by what I said : you don't know what you're talking about (and your post was ALL speculation).
Since, you're talking about racism, I'd add that what you're doing (along with court70, bijoux and some others) since few days is almost as nocive as what some racists can do imo.

What exactly am I doing? I have given my honest opinion of France and the French, both of which I like very much, enough to continue studying French for A level and I would not sit here insulting the French for fun, that is certainly not my aim at all.

And as for speculation, how exactly do you explain the riots of 05 nad 07 then? Just a few people had a bad day at the office and decided to start burning things? No, they were sick of being treated poorly and the killing of 2 youths sparked off violence in both cases. That isnt normal behaviour for a country that has no issues with racism.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:09 PM
For some reason they think never ending "victim attitude" will get them somewhere :confused:

Shh hater :wavey:

hingisGOAT
May 29th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Is this a serious question? Serena is just about the loudest, most obnoxious player in the WTA so of course crowds will not be very receptive to her. Screaming, fist pumps, pelting balls at her opponents, stare downs, etc. She brings it on herself so I don't feel bad for her at all...

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 06:11 PM
Since, you're talking about racism, I'd add that what you're doing (along with court70, bijoux and some others) since few days is almost as nocive as what some racists can do imo.

If it was the other way around people that you have mentioned alone with serenus_2k8 would be banned from this forum... hypocrisy of some mods is well known here.

The Witch-king
May 29th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Why do some people get so antsy at the mere mention/discussion of race issues? It's kinda suspicious.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:15 PM
What exactly am I doing? I have given my honest opinion of France and the French, both of which I like very much, enough to continue studying French for A level and I would not sit here insulting the French for fun, that is certainly not my aim at all.

And as for speculation, how exactly do you explain the riots of 05 nad 07 then? Just a few people had a bad day at the office and decided to start burning things? No, they were sick of being treated poorly and the killing of 2 youths sparked off violence in both cases. That isnt normal behaviour for a country that has no issues with racism.

France has issues with racism, like every other countries (especially the ones with a colonisation history), and yes there were riots few years ago.
The link between this and the sisters being victims of racism from the crowd and organizers at RG is the result of pure speculation and persecution syndrom.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Is this a serious question? Serena is just about the loudest, most obnoxious player in the WTA so of course crowds will not be very receptive to her. Screaming, fist pumps, pelting balls at her opponents, stare downs, etc. She brings it on herself so I don't feel bad for her at all...

You forgotten the reception that Hingis got?

If it was the other way around people that you have mentioned alone with serenus_2k8 would be banned from this forum... hypocrisy of some mods is well known here.

Banned for what? Putting forward an argument and expressing my opinion regarding the comments of Pam Shriver? I hardly think that would be fair, and as for insulting the mods....not the best move tbh considering the hard work they put into this forum to keep it going for posters like you. Get some respect.

lilimi
May 29th, 2009, 06:17 PM
What exactly am I doing? I have given my honest opinion of France and the French, both of which I like very much, enough to continue studying French for A level and I would not sit here insulting the French for fun, that is certainly not my aim at all.

And as for speculation, how exactly do you explain the riots of 05 nad 07 then? Just a few people had a bad day at the office and decided to start burning things? No, they were sick of being treated poorly and the killing of 2 youths sparked off violence in both cases. That isnt normal behaviour for a country that has no issues with racism.

what the link between riots and racism. were you there when it happened? you know media always exaggerate events. do you live there? you think only black people live there?
i won't say all brits are hooligans because on tv they always show brits fighting during world cups.

hingisGOAT
May 29th, 2009, 06:17 PM
You forgotten the reception that Hingis got?

Who mentioned Hingis :shrug:

HRHoliviasmith
May 29th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Who knows, they've been awful to Mary Pierce and ASV. They eat their own. I don't recall ever feeling the love from them for Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport, or even Jennifer Capriati. I think Andy Roddick is the only American they really like, I guess because he's girly like most European men so they think he's hot.

:haha: :spit: :rolls:

The Witch-king
May 29th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Is this a serious question? Serena is just about the loudest, most obnoxious player in the WTA so of course crowds will not be very receptive to her. Screaming, fist pumps, pelting balls at her opponents, stare downs, etc. She brings it on herself so I don't feel bad for her at all...

funny because Andy Roddick is like The Devil compared to Serena, and i've never seen crowds go particularly wild to see him defeated. The guy swears at umpires, i even saw him smack a child's cap on his head at Madrid... He's a complete jerk when in a losing position.

The basis of this debate is that Serena like just about every other player tries to pump herself up but when she does it we get a description like yours. Why the double standard?

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Who knows, they've been awful to Mary Pierce and ASV. They eat their own. I don't recall ever feeling the love from them for Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport, or even Jennifer Capriati. I think Andy Roddick is the only American they really like, I guess because he's girly like most European men so they think he's hot.
That, plus the fact that he's a walking billboard for French retailers (Babolat racquet and shoes, Lacoste clothes).

Olórin
May 29th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Who mentioned Hingis :shrug:

Serenus did. Did the crowd dislike her because of her poor sportsmanship or because she was straight up obnoxious?

And if Serena really is quite so disagreeable, it's probably worth analysing why the French take to her so much less than the British, Australians and Americans. Let's try and come up with something original and useful here.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:21 PM
Who mentioned Hingis :shrug:

:spit: Stumped much :lol:

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:21 PM
The French don't like Sharapova either, so it's not a race thing.

Yeah, as I say, I believe their are only a select few supporters who want Serena to lose due to her race, and I know her attitude can annoy people. Im not calling the whole of France racist.

France has issues with racism, like every other countries (especially the ones with a colonisation history), and yes there were riots few years ago.
The link between this and the sisters being victims of racism from the crowd and organizers at RG is the result of pure speculation and persecution syndrom.

Well the majority of what goes on on this board is speculation. It wouldnt be much of a forum if facts and figures were the only means of communication accepted.

I believe the blatant signs of racial tension in the Parisian suburbs and the fact that Venus has had the worst schedule of any player 2 years running arent directly linked. I think its questionnable, however, that she should be so unfortunately treated by an event held in a city that has had more than its fair share of racial problems. There is no right or wrong answer to this, so I dont know what you really expect me to say? Its no different to the ''Who is better than who'' or 'WWW' threads.

Persecution syndrome? Why have you assumed that I am black and have been discriminated upon?

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Yet when other white champions show huge intensity (Henin for example, and yeh I get that she was adopted by the crowd but still) its just the sign of a great champion. When its Ree its because shes a brute and unfeminine etc.

i wish i had time to expound on things but i think you've done a nice job.

the bolded part is what i find most offensive when people talk about venus and serena. they talk about them like they are animals or freaks of nature, especially when compared to the fragile sweet white girls they play.

i was listening to radio roland garros (english) during serena's first match i believe. the commentator remarked about how serena dwarfed her czech opponent. anybody who know history knows that white people have shown a bizarre fascination or abhorrence towards the bodies and physiques of black people, particularly black women.

it's as though v and serena's beastly natures give them an unfair advantage over the precious white girls they are playing. you'd think that after all this time people would be used to them. but they are not.

even on this forum, people repeatedly characterize the sisters as ugly or manly or just not an embodiment of femininity. yet, there are white girls, lots of white girls on the wta tour, who are butt ugly (suarez-navarro, etc.), fat (rezai, etc.), and large (akbul, etc.), who receive no jabs.

but, i think it's difficult for some people to take a confident, tough, accomplished black girl who isn't trying to bow down or don bananas and run around shaking her hips.

this is still, at its heart, a lily-white upperclass sport. it's apparent from some of the comments that are thrown out when a player doesn't conform to their notion of "class."

i don't know why serena even bothers to have an apt there. the french, at least the ones at this event, are totally gauche and retarded.

Langers
May 29th, 2009, 06:22 PM
WAH WAH WAH! That's all I'm hearing. Hey Williams', their annoying fans and their adoring media, suck it up!!!!

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/blog/baby-crying%20jpg.jpg

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:23 PM
Serenus did. Did the crowd dislike her because of her poor sportsmanship or because she was straight up obnoxious?

And if Serena really is quite so disagreeable, it's probably worth analysing why the French take to her so much less than the British, Australians and Americans. Let's try and come up with something original and useful here.

sorry but for a long time, white americans did not like the williams sisters. and were almost always against these girls.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:24 PM
WAH WAH WAH! That's all I'm hearing. Hey Williams', their annoying fans and their adoring media, suck it up!!!!

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/blog/baby-crying%20jpg.jpg

Thanks for the mature contribution. Nothing like a well structured, sophisticated post to really add new depth to a discussion :rolleyes:

HRHoliviasmith
May 29th, 2009, 06:24 PM
funny because Andy Roddick is like The Devil compared to Serena, and i've never seen crowds go particularly wild to see him defeated. The guy swears at umpires, i even saw him smack a child's cap on his head at Madrid... He's a complete jerk when in a losing position.

The basis of this debate is that Serena like just about every other player tries to pump herself up but when she does it we get a description like yours.Why the double standard?

:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:25 PM
WAH WAH WAH! That's all I'm hearing. Hey Williams', their annoying fans and their adoring media, suck it up!!!!

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/blog/baby-crying%20jpg.jpg


i would say that with 17 singles slams, and counting, between, they've done plenty of "sucking up" quite successfully.

they are not babies. they are tough and they've made it despite or inspite of the haters.

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Serenus did. Did the crowd dislike her because of her poor sportsmanship or because she was straight up obnoxious?

And if Serena really is quite so disagreeable, it's probably worth analysing why the French take to her so much less than the British, Australians and Americans. Let's try and come up with something original and useful here.

Perhaps if you would look at matches that don't have either sister in it, you'd realise what everyone who watches a bit of tennis knows.
The French crowd in general is different. They boo every player that challenges a call. It's always like that, in every match. Safarova was booed as well when she challenged a call, this in a match against Venus. I'm sure players are used to that and so it probably doesn't bother them since it isn't personal.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Yeah, as I say, I believe their are only a select few supporters who want Serena to lose due to her race, and I know her attitude can annoy people. Im not calling the whole of France racist.



Well the majority of what goes on on this board is speculation. It wouldnt be much of a forum if facts and figures were the only means of communication accepted.

I believe the blatant signs of racial tension in the Parisian suburbs and the fact that Venus has had the worst schedule of any player 2 years running arent directly linked. I think its questionnable, however, that she should be so unfortunately treated by an event held in a city that has had more than its fair share of racial problems. There is no right or wrong answer to this, so I dont know what you really expect me to say? Its no different to the ''Who is better than who'' or 'WWW' threads.

Persecution syndrome? Why have you assumed that I am black and have been discriminated upon?

She didn't have the worst schedule of any players the past 2 years, and she hasn't been unfotunately treated (had they put her on court 18, you may have a point).It just happened that she lost early the past two years and some can't take it in a rational way.

If you can't see the difference between speculating on who will win a match and wether or not every breath and move from the crowd and organizers has racist connotations, then sorry I can't help you (as for the persecution thing : I was more thinking of posters like court70 and Gplayer, but since you seem to insist to be linked with them...).

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Perhaps if you would look at matches that don't have either sister in it, you'd realise what everyone who watches a bit of tennis knows.
The French crowd in general is different. They boo every player that challenges a call. It's always like that, in every match. Safarova was booed as well when she challenged a call, this in a match against Venus. I'm sure players are used to that and so it probably doesn't bother them since it isn't personal.

venus and serena have always gotten special treatment wherever they go. in most places, it's better. the french seem to especially save a little something for them.

Olórin
May 29th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Perhaps if you would look at matches that don't have either sister in it, you'd realise what everyone who watches a bit of tennis knows.
The French crowd in general is different. They boo every player that challenges a call. It's always like that, in every match. Safarova was booed as well when she challenged a call, this in a match against Venus. I'm sure players are used to that and so it probably doesn't bother them since it isn't personal.

I am aware of these facts, you presumptious individual.

I was playing devil's advocate trying to get something useful out of heylookIamgay, for a change.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 06:35 PM
She didn't have the worst schedule of any players the past 2 years, and she hasn't been unfotunately treated (had they put her on court 18, you may have a point).It just happened that she lost early the past two years and some can't take it in a rational way.

If you can't see the difference between speculating on who will win a match and wether or not every breath and move from the crowd and organizers has racist connotations, then sorry I can't help you (as for the persecution thing : I was more thinking of posters like court70 and Gplayer, but since you seem to insist to be linked with them...).

I dont insist to be linked to anyone, but thats really irrelevant. The double standards are clear. If Vee is unpopular why not just move her to a smaller court when play would clearly be held up? Since ticket holders wouldnt be too dissapointed if she was moved since few people like her. Or, why didnt they just leave the match for the next day, since again, few people would wait to watch her anyway? It just doesnt make sense, sorry, her scheduling has been piss poor and thats not subjective speculation, its cold hard fact.

Again, you're exxagarating my point. I feel that its not simply coincidence she has had the shit shceudle

Joana
May 29th, 2009, 06:35 PM
So, according to some people, it's a case of a racist crowd. However, neither the French players, the male American players nor the lower ranked female American players are affected.
So, maybe, just maybe it's not about racism after all.

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 06:36 PM
The double standards are clear.

:baby:

gentenaire
May 29th, 2009, 06:41 PM
So, according to some people, it's a case of a racist crowd. However, neither the French players, the male American players nor the lower ranked American players are affected.
So, maybe, just maybe it's not about racism after all.

Now, now, there's no point in making sense. All French are racists!! Oh, and Europeans too. Duh!

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:42 PM
I dont insist to be linked to anyone, but thats really irrelevant. The double standards are clear. If Vee is unpopular why not just move her to a smaller court when play would clearly be held up? Since ticket holders wouldnt be too dissapointed if she was moved since few people like her. Or, why didnt they just leave the match for the next day, since again, few people would wait to watch her anyway? It just doesnt make sense, sorry, her scheduling has been piss poor and thats not subjective speculation, its cold hard fact.

Again, you're exxagarating my point. I feel that its not simply coincidence she has had the shit shceudle

What hapenned to Mauresmo and Cornet then ? Why were they scheduled on late match, in dark and cold conditions to play their first round ? Feel free to speculate and don't forget to be imaginative.

The Witch-king
May 29th, 2009, 06:44 PM
WAH WAH WAH! That's all I'm hearing. Hey Williams', their annoying fans and their adoring media, suck it up!!!!

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/family/blog/baby-crying%20jpg.jpg

i'm so tired of ppl complaining about "williams fans". You do realise that we are unrelated individuals with separate points of view? You never hear anything bout jankovic fans or russian fans or whatever.

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Monfils and Tsonga are two of the most in your face players Ive ever seen, so I dont think thats right tbh.

The boring bit is probs more right, they dont play spectacular clay court tennis, but that shouldnt mean theyre disliked really.

About Monfils and Tsonga.
" 2 of the most in your face players I have ever seen" hmmm first I really think you are exaggerating here ... but most importantly what you think does not have any impact on what French people think. The fact that YOU find them to be extremely "in your face"does not mean that French people also do!

Different countries, different people, different interpretations, different perceptions! as simple as that! Stop thinking too hard!

hingisGOAT
May 29th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Serenus did. Did the crowd dislike her because of her poor sportsmanship or because she was straight up obnoxious?


Why even mention Martina? -- unless, of course, it is easier to deflect the discussion towards Hingis than to defend Serena's obnoxious histrionics ;)

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:47 PM
Now, now, there's no point in making sense. All French are racists!! Oh, and Europeans too. Duh!

do you really believe that racism and the way it is expressed, is done in a logical consistent manner?

people keep trying to put forth these explanations that rely on a pattern of predictable consistent behaviour. the problem is that racism is not logical. it is often complex and comes down in different ways.

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 06:51 PM
the problem is that racism is not logical. it is often complex and comes down in different ways.

exactly, most of your posts do tell that you have a problem with white people and clearly discriminate against them :confused:

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:54 PM
exactly, most of your posts do tell that you have a problem with white people and clearly discriminate against them :confused:

and most of your posts show that you are the lost idiot that requires its village.

as usual, you've got no ability to analyze, just throw out stupid one-liners.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 06:55 PM
do you really believe that racism and the way it is expressed, is done in a logical consistent manner?

people keep trying to put forth these explanations that rely on a pattern of predictable consistent behaviour. the problem is that racism is not logical. it is often complex and comes down in different ways.

When Serena had to face a racist in Miami (not sure about the place)she reacted immediately, told to the umpire to get the guy out.
When they perceived that Indian Wells crowd had been racist toward them, the Williams simply decided to boycott the event.

Did you hear racial slurs during Venus or Serena matches at FO ? Did one of the girl complained about racism act/word of any kind ? If not, it's all speculation and paranoia from those who are saying that the sisters are victim of racism here.

(btw don't you find it strange that of all cities she visited, Serena bought a flat in such a racist city like Paris ?)

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 06:57 PM
When Serena had to face a racist in Miami (not sure about the place)she reacted immediately, told to the umpire to get the guy out.
When they perceived that Indian Wells crowd had been racist toward them, the Williams simply decided to boycott the event.

Did you hear racial slurs during Venus or Serena matches at FO ? Did one of the girl complained about racism act/word of any kind ? If not, it's all speculation and paranoia from those who are saying that the sisters are victim of racism here.

(btw don't you find it strange that of all cities she visited, Serena bought a flat in such a racist city like Paris ?)

one does not have to be called a nigga to recognize a problem.

a lot of black people have moved to paris, especially black americans. that does not mean problems don't exist there.

a lot of immigrants from africa are killing themselves to get there even though they know they might be treated like shit once they get there.

hello? people don't always behave in the straight line consistent way you think they should. that's the point.

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 06:59 PM
and most of your posts show that you are the lost idiot that requires its village.

as usual, you've got no ability to analyze, just throw out stupid one-liners.

is it the best you can do? :lol:

Stamp Paid
May 29th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Theyre just not crowd favorites. Who cares?
Theyre not crowd favorites at the US Open either.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 07:07 PM
one does not have to be called a nigga to recognize a problem.

a lot of black people have moved to paris, especially black americans. that does not mean problems don't exist there.

a lot of immigrants from africa are killing themselves to get there even though they know they might be treated like shit once they get there.

hello? people don't always behave in the straight line consistent what you think they should. that's the point.

I know how french racists act certainly better than you thank you, and the point is not wether or not there are racists in Paris (acting in a subtile way or not).

Some of you are saying that organizers are racists cause of the scheduling : when asked why Mauresmo and Cornet had to face a worst schedule than her in the first round, no answer.
Some are arguing that because the crowd is not as supportive as they would it to be toward the sisters, it's a racist crowd (not talking about one or two individuals, but an entire crowd) : when asked why the crowd is supportive to players like Ouanna, Monfils and Tsonga, the answer is "they're french" (as if a racist would think that a black is a "real" french).When asked why white top players were booed in the past (kinda showing that it may be not a racist issue) : bs answers.

Sorry but as I said : PARANOIA

canuckfan
May 29th, 2009, 07:08 PM
So, according to some people, it's a case of a racist crowd. However, neither the French players, the male American players nor the lower ranked female American players are affected.
So, maybe, just maybe it's not about racism after all.

The french players are french, so it doesn't count.

James Blake isn't black enough and has mostly white friends, so it doesn't count.

Lower ranked female american players are...lower ranked, thus not a factor to win, so it doesn't count.

So basically the french are racist against hard serving black american women, slam winners, over 5 foot 9, who don't aspire to be friend with Mardy Fish.

So simple!

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 07:08 PM
You're both happy to be insulting, but neither of you have actually contributed any information of value. :shrug: Im not just speculating here, I have very good first hand experience, thank you :wavey:

Diam, your reason of ''shes in your face'' is bullshit, because the French are fond of other in your face players. I dont particularly believe you are a black girl living in France, but if you are you would know there are serious problems around Paris, as I myself am very aware :)

Thanks for your rudeness though, very mature and dare I say, very French ;)

LOL. May I remind you that you were the first to be more than insulting by calling the French surrenders (oh and just fyi the French were the first to follow the US in Afghanistan and so far no WMD have been found in Iraq) and racists.

And then WE are the rude ones!

What's next ? another condescending post saying "blablabla smelly, arrogant, frogs, freedom fries " ?

Oh and excuse me but seeing how stereotypical your discourse is ("banlieues" "français de souche" LOL you forgot "sacre bleu" and "oh lala )!) I highly doubt that you have VERY GOOD first hand experience. Basically you are just repeating what the media told you.
And just another thing : no one said that there is no racial tension in France or "around Paris" LOL

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 07:10 PM
is it the best you can do? :lol:

my best >>> than you

Serval
May 29th, 2009, 07:10 PM
The Frogs and Yanks just don't like each other... They were very chummy once, didn't France give America the statue of Liberty?

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 07:13 PM
my best >>> than you

only in your dreams

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 07:13 PM
The french players are french, so it doesn't count.

James Blake isn't black enough and has mostly white friends, so it doesn't count.

Lower ranked female american players are...lower ranked, thus not a factor to win, so it doesn't count.

So basically the french are racist against hard serving black american women, slam winners, over 5 foot 9, who don't aspire to be friend with Mardy Fish.

So simple!

now this is straight line logic.

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 07:15 PM
I know how french racists act certainly better than you thank you, and the point is not wether or not there are racists in Paris (acting in a subtile way or not).

Some of you are saying that organizers are racists cause of the scheduling : when asked why Mauresmo and Cornet had to face a worst schedule than her in the first round, no answer.
Some are arguing that because the crowd is not as supportive as they would it to be toward the sisters, it's a racist crowd (not talking about one or two individuals, but an entire crowd) : when asked why the crowd is supportive to players like Ouanna, Monfils and Tsonga, the answer is "they're french" (as if a racist would think that a black is a "real" french).When asked why white top players were booed in the past (kinda showing that it may be not a racist issue) : bs answers.

Sorry but as I said : PARANOIA

Another thing to add to your list : WHITE FRENCH players who were booed during their final speech (Henri Leconte)

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 07:18 PM
only in your dreams

dreams are often based on the subconscious reality.

The Dawntreader
May 29th, 2009, 07:18 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.

Is this the biggest generalisation?

So the RG is racist and sexist?

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 07:23 PM
Another thing to add to your list : WHITE FRENCH players who were booed during their final speech (Henri Leconte)

yeah I forgot this one :haha: (they booed him during the match too, but tbh his behaviour didn't help :o)

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 07:26 PM
dreams are often based on the subconscious reality.

You sound like a paranoid freak

LDVTennis
May 29th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Two theories for why the French don't like Serena:

First theory:
It has nothing to do with Serena's record or her apparent arrogance. The French like players with stylish games, graceful with lots of flair. Read Richard Gasquet's comments on the subject. Exhibit A. Steffi was German, even worse than being American. She was always quite haughty and stoic. Yet, the French crowd got behind her from the beginning. They didn't just cheer for her in 1999. They were also behind her in 1987, 1992, and 1996.

Second theory:

Perhaps, the French crowd vacations in Indian Wells. ;)

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 07:27 PM
The French crowd is awful. I don't care what you guys say. Their very well could be some racism directed towards Venus and Serena. I've watched lots of the matches this year's and the boos and jerring towards them especially Serena hasn't come close to the other player's. Besides that, the booing and jeering I witnessed towards the other players are because they smash a racket or question a mark. Venus and Serena have not been doing any of that and are still getting booed. Now, tell me, I am seeing all these European players not being booed, yet the two black American sisters are getting the worse of it? :rolleyes: RACISM! BIGOTRY! PREJUDIDE! Definitely has to be one of those three. You'd be a fool to not realize it. I always gave the French crowd the benefit of the doubt until this year. It really is clear as night and day.

~{X}~
May 29th, 2009, 07:29 PM
I think they just think she is loud, arrogant, obnoxious and thinks she's a goddess. And well the French don't like that shit. They don't like people acting as if they own the place, aka, Serena, Sharapova, Martina in 1999 during the final, when she was questioning calls and walking around the net.

The French get bitchy fast and they remember. :tape:

I don't think it has much to do about racism since they support their African ancestry men, then again it could be the fact that they are women. I think they hate arrogance the most...which is funny since French people are arrogant themselves at times.

Joana
May 29th, 2009, 07:30 PM
do you really believe that racism and the way it is expressed, is done in a logical consistent manner?

people keep trying to put forth these explanations that rely on a pattern of predictable consistent behaviour. the problem is that racism is not logical. it is often complex and comes down in different ways.

I do agree with it, but there has to be at least some kind of recognizable pattern if it's to be called racism, otherwise it's pure speculation. And I'm not seeing that pattern - there have been plenty of black players who haven't got a hostile treatment from the crowd, as well as white players who have been booed and harassed, often for petty reasons. I don't deny there may be some underlying racist moments behind the crowd's reasoning, but they are far from being the only ones, or the most important ones.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 07:32 PM
The French crowd is awful. I don't care what you guys say. Their very well could be some racism directed towards Venus and Serena. I've watched lots of the matches this year's and the boos and jerring towards them especially Serena hasn't come close to the other player's. Besides that, the booing and jeering I witnessed towards the other players are because they smash a racket or question a mark. Venus and Serena have not been doing any of that and are still getting booed. Now, tell me, I am seeing all these European players not being booed, yet the two black American sisters are getting the worse of it? :rolleyes: RACISM! BIGOTRY! PREJUDIDE! Definitely has to be one of those three. You'd be a fool to not realize it. I always gave the French crowd the benefit of the doubt until this year. It really is clear as night and day.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-paranoid-cat.jpg

Dave.
May 29th, 2009, 07:33 PM
Definetely not racism, it is foolish to suggest a whole entire crowd of people (many of whom are actually black) are racist towards black people, especially when they have supported players like Gael Monfils and Mashona Washington. It's not black people, it's not American people, it's just the individual player.

I think some need to accept that people can dislike Serena or Venus for who they are or their own games and that their skin colour doesn't make a blind bit of difference to most people. Sharapova has also had her problems with the French crowd, Davenport certainly wasn't as popular there as she was everywhere else, Frenchwomen Pierce and Testud also had problems.


I agree with Serenus that perhaps they don't have as much respect for the WS achievements like the Aus, Wimbledon and mostly the US Open does, but maybe that's because the French haven't seen too many victories of the Williams sisters there.

onyxrose81
May 29th, 2009, 07:42 PM
There's an easy answer to this--how did they react to that black figure skater several years ago--I forget her name. Something like Bonaly I think. She was French. Were they supportive of her? I'm asking.

Personally, I think it's not the black part, it's the American part. We all know there's a lot of tension between the French and Americans. Sometimes it's for good reason, other times not. But Maria--and I know she is Russian but she is so Americanized that it is easy to think of her as an American--also faces hostility from the French crowd. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very evident.

I just think the French don't care for American players much.

It's not really the American part. They like Roddick a lot.

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 07:44 PM
You sound like a paranoid freak

who is smarter than you.

alfonsojose
May 29th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Noisy and feisty non french players = be ready

2Black
May 29th, 2009, 07:47 PM
I think they just think she is loud, arrogant, obnoxious and thinks she's a goddess. And well the French don't like that shit. They don't like people acting as if they own the place, aka, Serena, Sharapova, Martina in 1999 during the final, when she was questioning calls and walking around the net.

The French get bitchy fast and they remember. :tape:

I don't think it has much to do about racism since they support their African ancestry men, then again it could be the fact that they are women. I think they hate arrogance the most...which is funny since French people are arrogant themselves at times.

If this were true, they would boo the antics of Tsonga & Monfils. Let's face it, they simply dont like The Williams Family. I am so hoping for an Indian Wells Moment where Venus defeats her opponents & the crowd to take the title. I wish i was there, I would be loud just like Richard & his girl.

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 07:57 PM
I do agree with it, but there has to be at least some kind of recognizable pattern if it's to be called racism, otherwise it's pure speculation. And I'm not seeing that pattern - there have been plenty of black players who haven't got a hostile treatment from the crowd, as well as white players who have been booed and harassed, often for petty reasons. I don't deny there may be some underlying racist moments behind the crowd's reasoning, but they are far from being the only ones, or the most important ones.

as an aside, let me give you some examples of people who behave in strange, apparently, inconsistent ways when it comes to race. i'll just use the u.s. as an example, but i could use europe.

historically, in the u.s. blacks were historically discriminated against right?

well, what's strange is how some blacks were black but they were light. often they would be given greater opportunities by whites than the dark blacks. but, the whites still categorized them as black and at the end of the day, treated them as such. one would think you would just be racist to all blacks, at all times denying them, but no.

i look at europe. a black american in some parts of europe may have a better chance of being treated better than an african. before they find out you're american, the treatment might be different.

i remember obama saying something about his grandmother loving him, but then having issues with being fearful of black men.

this is what i mean when i say racism can be difficult to nail down, especially nowadays.

but you know, tiger woods and the ws came out about the same time. i recall once someone saying they should be more like tiger - quiet, unassuming, "humble," and nonthreatening. see, the subtext is there are certain kinds of blacks that may be more acceptable.

is it at all possible that they are just not the types of black people the french like? that is possible.

Wimbledon9
May 29th, 2009, 07:58 PM
The French have always been like this. I remember the matches between Chris Evert en Martina Navratilova, Martina could do no right and Chris no wrong. Martina was playing the spectacular game and spoke french after the match. Happily Martina could take it like a man and still won 2 titles. Strangely Martina became very popular after Amelie Mauresmo appeared at the French Open now how could that happen we all know why. Strange people that French but they were not the only ones. American and British fans do make the same mistakes.

LeonHart
May 29th, 2009, 08:02 PM
Umm, what about Sharapova? The French are pretty hostile to her too. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with race.

goldenboi356
May 29th, 2009, 08:06 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.

It is sad that you think like this. Always race/ethnicity and gender. The world is becoming more tolerant now you know.

As to the lack of support for Serena, I understand why. For me personally, I feel she lacks humility and needs to be more humble like Venus.

onyxrose81
May 29th, 2009, 08:06 PM
A lot of people just don't like the Williams Sisters. I don't know why that's such a difficult concept for a lot of people on this board to grasp.

woosey
May 29th, 2009, 08:16 PM
Umm, what about Sharapova? The French are pretty hostile to her too. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with race.

not in this way.

they weren't really against her against petrova.

Warriorroger
May 29th, 2009, 08:19 PM
I think they like classy champions and a humble person and she isn't, nothing to do with being American, black or being a woman.

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 08:21 PM
A lot of people just don't like the Williams Sisters. I don't know why that's such a difficult concept for a lot of people on this board to grasp.

Not liking a player doesn't give a fan the right to disrespect them during matches. I don't like Justine but I would never go to the US Open and start booing and jeering her for no reason like a classless pig.

The French crowds treat the sisters different than the other players where booing is concerned. I could understand if they questioned a few too many calls or did something to warrant it but that's not the case most of the time. That's when the booing and jeering is about racism. It's something that shouldn't be accepted but it seems to be embraced by the French crowd, tournament directors, and some of the posters on this board.:o

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 08:24 PM
not in this way.

they weren't really against her against petrova.

they were loudly rooting for Dinara to beat her last year...

Uranium
May 29th, 2009, 08:25 PM
I just think the French don't care for American players much.

I agree with this sadly.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Not liking a player doesn't give a fan the right to disrespect them during matches. I don't like Justine but I would never go to the US Open and start booing and jeering her for no reason like a classless pig.

The French crowds treat the sisters different than the other players where booing is concerned. I could understand if they questioned a few too many calls or did something to warrant it but that's not the case most of the time. That's when the booing and jeering is about racism. It's something that shouldn't be accepted but it seems to be embraced by the French crowd, tournament directors, and some of the posters on this board.:o

Hey Harlooooooo!!!!!! I haven't seen you around in a long time. Anyway,

:worship: My sentiments exactly. Pefectly summed up.

Dave.
May 29th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Not liking a player doesn't give a fan the right to disrespect them during matches. I don't like Justine but I would never go to the US Open and start booing and jeering her for no reason like a classless pig.

I agree. With the booing and everything else that goes on, the French Open crowd in general certainly are one of the least classiest crowds in tennis.



The French crowds treat the sisters different than the other players where booing is concerned. I could understand if they questioned a few too many calls or did something to warrant it but that's not the case most of the time. That's when the booing and jeering is about racism. It's something that shouldn't be accepted but it seems to be embraced by the French crowd, tournament directors, and some of the posters on this board.:o

Then we see the French crowds support other African American players and black players in general which means racism is not a possible explanation in this case. The tournament directors don't have a part in this.

Dodoboy.
May 29th, 2009, 09:03 PM
The Crowd LOVE Roddick for some reason :scratch: Watching some of his matches you would think he was french!!

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Hey Harlooooooo!!!!!! I haven't seen you around in a long time. Anyway,

:worship: My sentiments exactly. Pefectly summed up.

Hey G, I've been busy at work lately. :wavey:

I really don't understand why people won't just accept the truth. These attitudes aren't changing anytime soon.

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 09:11 PM
I agree with Serenus that perhaps they don't have as much respect for the WS achievements like the Aus, Wimbledon and mostly the US Open does, but maybe that's because the French haven't seen too many victories of the Williams sisters there.


They probably still remember the terrible, awful all WS final from 2002 :tape:



The French crowds treat the sisters different than the other players where booing is concerned.



:confused: I didn't notice that...did they boo Venus off the court today like they did with Pova last year? :devil: :lol:

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 09:15 PM
They probably still remember the terrible, awful all WS final from 2002 :tape:





:confused: I didn't notice that...did they boo Venus off the court today like they did with Pova last year? :devil: :lol:

:lol: If you thought the 2002 All WS final was bad, PLEASE don't give me your opinions on the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 or 2008 final. :help: 2002 was actually the best and most competetive of those years so that's saying something. :eek:

If the crowd dislikes the WS because of that match, proves more to the theory that they are racist since the 6 finals since then featuring all European players have been some of the worst Grand Slam finals in HISTORY. So, thanks for proving my point even more. :wavey:

olympus28
May 29th, 2009, 09:16 PM
Everybody knows the Williams in France, they just don't really like her game...they prefer game as Henin with more variation, it's the same with sharapova anyway

Denise4925
May 29th, 2009, 09:19 PM
Yeah, this pretty much makes me hate this tournament.

VeeReeDavJCap81
May 29th, 2009, 09:19 PM
Let's not sugar coat people, it's a mix of being black, female, and American. One could make the case that Serena is arrogant, but then why is it that they have booed Venus and don't cheer for her either, when Venus is a terrific sport?

At the end of the day, I don't think it affects Serena one bit. Serena has gone through a lot in her life, do you think she gives a rats ass about a crowd of judgemental people who paid to come see her? I think not.

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 09:20 PM
:lol: If you thought the 2002 All WS final was bad, PLEASE don't give me your opinions on the 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 or 2008 final. :help: 2002 was actually the best and most competetive of those years so that's saying something. :eek:


The finals in 2006 and 2008 were much much better than the crap we had to witness in 2002. No comparison :wavey:

Hell, even 2003 was probably better than 2002 :tape:

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM
azerenka must be black also cus the crowd was totaly against her today, and booed her off court even though she actualy bothered to sign autographs.

i swear people complaining about the lack of support for serena just ignore any other player that is disliked and booed because then they cant claim its because of race.

as someone said earlier washington got huge support against sharapova, but then she isnt arrogant and was playing m,aria who is hated also.

volta
May 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM
oh great Ennis Del Mar is already here only Jack Twist is missing

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM
Everybody knows the Williams in France, they just don't really like her game...they prefer game as Henin with more variation, it's the same with sharapova anyway


I think that is one of the main points, yes. :)

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 09:29 PM
azerenka must be black also cus the crowd was totaly against her today, and booed her off court even though she actualy bothered to sign autographs.

i swear people complaining about the lack of support for serena just ignore any other player that is disliked and booed because then they cant claim its because of race.

as someone said earlier washington got huge support against sharapova, but then she isnt arrogant and was playing m,aria who is hated also.

Did you see Azarenka play today? Did you see the antics? Throwing rackets? Using expletives? She was acting like a brat as she occasionally does. So, it isn't surprising that this crowd came down on her. And Maria? Maria has yelled to the crowd "Up your fucking ass"" before and called them "assholes" so it's not surprising they aren't receptive to her. Serena doesn't throw rackets, doesn't question calls, and doesn't throw temper tantrums on court. And arrogance? :lol: :weirdo: Get over it. That's the main thing the Serena hating trolls like yourself say to explain your and others dislike of her.

And Washington got huge support? Umm, has Washington even won a round here before? Stop being facetious because it makes you look like a fool in the end.

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 09:32 PM
I


Then we see the French crowds support other African American players and black players in general which means racism is not a possible explanation in this case. The tournament directors don't have a part in this.

Well Dave, let me break it down for you:

-Venus and Serena are two black women with imposing games and more accomplished than any black female tennis player in history.

-The only reason they support Monfis, Tsonga, and other black French players is because they're French.

-What other African American player is in the position of a Venus or Serena? If you're referring to them supporting a Chanda Rubin in the past or other black players the argument holds no merit because none of those players pose a threat from tournament to tournament.

In my opinion, it's not about support but more so respect. I don't expect the French crowds to fully embrace the sisters or any other player for that matter. My problem is they treat the sisters differently than the other players they don't particularly like. That has to do with racist attitudes and prejudiced beliefs. It's actually disturbing to me that many people defend that behavior.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 09:32 PM
The finals in 2006 and 2008 were much much better than the crap we had to witness in 2002. No comparison :wavey:

Hell, even 2003 was probably better than 2002 :tape:

2006 was that crap match with Kunzetsova? :spit: Horrible tennis and had more UE's than the 2002 match. 2008? Another horrific match with Dinara choking and letting the pressure get to her. None of those sets got to 5 all either. They were error ridden slug fests that were nervously played. The 2002 final was at least mildly competetive. We knew that Kuznestova would fold and that Dinara couldn't deal with the pressure. Anyone who says that those matches were better than the 2002 final is DELUDED.

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 09:33 PM
The Crowd LOVE Roddick for some reason :scratch: Watching some of his matches you would think he was french!!
Babolat racquets and shoes, Lacoste clothes.....Roddick IS French, Dodoboy. ;)

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Well Dave, let me break it down for you:

-Venus and Serena are two black women with imposing games and more accomplished than any black female tennis player in history.

-The only reason they support Monfis, Tsonga, and other black French players is because they're French.

-What other African American player is in the position of a Venus or Serena? If you're referring to them supporting a Chanda Rubin in the past or other black players the argument holds no merit because none of those players pose a threat from tournament to tournament.

In my opinion, it's not about support but more so respect. I don't expect the French crowds to fully embrace the sisters or any other player for that matter. My problem is they treat the sisters differently than the other players they don't particularly like. That has to do with racist attitudes and prejudiced beliefs. It's actually disturbing to me that many people defend that behavior.

proof ?

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 09:39 PM
2006 was that crap match with Kunzetsova? :spit: Horrible tennis and had more UE's than the 2002 match. 2008? Another horrific match with Dinara choking and letting the pressure get to her. None of those sets got to 5 all either. They were error ridden slug fests that were nervously played. The 2002 final was at least mildly competetive. We knew that Kuznestova would fold and that Dinara couldn't deal with the pressure. Anyone who says that those matches were better than the 2002 final is DELUDED.
You think the 2002 final was better than the others you mentioned because your favorite players were in it. Ana Ivanovic's fans would say that last year's final was better for that same reason, Anastasia Myskina's fans would say the 2004 final was better for that same reason, etc. The truth is, the last "good" women's final, in terms of competitiveness and quality of play, was 2001, when Jennifer Capriati beat Kim Clijsters 12-10 in the third.

Simplicity.
May 29th, 2009, 09:44 PM
We should probably all cry about it.

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 09:44 PM
Why do some people get so antsy at the mere mention/discussion of race issues? It's kinda suspicious.
It is suspicious. The racists never want to talk about race. They figure if people don't talk about it, they can pretend it doesn't exist. And they all can go on comfortably hating and getting away with it.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 09:45 PM
You think the 2002 final was better than the others you mentioned because your favorite players were in it. Ana Ivanovic's fans would say that last year's final was better for that same reason, Anastasia Myskina's fans would say the 2004 final was better for that same reason, etc. The truth is, the last "good" women's final, in terms of competitiveness and quality of play, was 2001, when Jennifer Capriati beat Kim Clijsters 12-10 in the third.


What? No, it's not because my favorite players are in it, it's because since 2002 the finals have been progressively worse and the 2002 final wasn't even that good besides one competetive set. But, to say that ANY other final since then has been better or good is preposterous and you know it. :rolleyes:

Mynarco
May 29th, 2009, 09:46 PM
My problem is they treat the sisters differently than the other players they don't particularly like. That has to do with racist attitudes and prejudiced beliefs. It's actually disturbing to me that many people defend that behavior.

WOW! You are an expert to know people's mind and to say that this is racist and that are not without any ACTUAL proof.

You should contribute to the society, not just sitting in front of the PC complaining. Psychology needs you.

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 09:46 PM
It is suspicious. The racists never want to talk about race. They figure if people don't talk about it, they can pretend it doesn't exist. And they all can go on comfortably hating and getting away with it.

or maybe they get bored of it being brought up at every possible chance, by the same set of posters, when as of yet the only proof of actualy racism was at serenas beloved miami in 2007 and the man was removed.

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 09:48 PM
They probably still remember the terrible, awful all WS final from 2002 :tape:





:confused: I didn't notice that...did they boo Venus off the court today like they did with Pova last year? :devil: :lol:

Do you have other threads to stalk besides those related to the sisters? I know Justine has retired but you're starting to get desperate Matt. :lol: Your girl has packed up her tennis skirt, maybe it's time for you to cheer for someone else instead of obsessing over the Williams.:lol:

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Babolat racquets and shoes, Lacoste clothes.....Roddick IS French, Dodoboy. ;)

LOL Do you really think people support players based on their sponsors ? :lol: :lol: So far in France I have seen a grand total of 0 commercials for Babolat or Lacoste involving Roddick! so obviously everybody in France must know what his sponsors are :lol: but whatever you are probably not being serious.
Also I remember that he got booed off the court 1 or 2 years ago when he got injured. Since then I have not watched any of his matches at RG so I don't know. The crowd probably doesn't care much about him.

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 09:49 PM
What? No, it's not because my favorite players are in it, it's because since 2002 the finals have been progressively worse and the 2002 final wasn't even that good besides one competetive set. But, to say that ANY other final since then has been better or good is preposterous and you know it. :rolleyes:
As I stated in my previous post, it's a matter of opinion. Justine Henin's fans will say that the four she won were all better than 2002. Ivanovic's fans will say that 2008 was better than 2002. Myskina's fans will say that 2004 was better than 2002. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't mean that they're wrong.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 09:51 PM
As I stated in my previous post, it's a matter of opinion. Justine Henin's fans will say that the four she won were all better than 2002. Ivanovic's fans will say that 2008 was better than 2002. Myskina's fans will say that 2004 was better than 2002. Just because their opinion doesn't line up with yours doesn't mean that they're wrong.


That is ALL subjective. Anyone whose saying those matches were any good are BIASED. Plain and Simple. Anyone who says that those awful 2006 and 2008 finals were better than the 2002 final are biased as well. :shrug:

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 09:52 PM
not in this way.

they weren't really against her against petrova.

Because it was kids' day.

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 09:53 PM
It is suspicious. The racists never want to talk about race. They figure if people don't talk about it, they can pretend it doesn't exist. And they all can go on comfortably hating and getting away with it.

In the same time, using racism to explain every little thing that happens (like you and some others often do)can have one major consequence : when racism will effectively take place a lot of people won't take it seriously.The kid who cried wolf...
(not to mention that seeing the world mostly through the racism prism leads to a sad life imo).

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 09:56 PM
Did you see Azarenka play today? Did you see the antics? Throwing rackets? Using expletives? She was acting like a brat as she occasionally does. So, it isn't surprising that this crowd came down on her. And Maria? Maria has yelled to the crowd "Up your fucking ass"" before and called them "assholes" so it's not surprising they aren't receptive to her. Serena doesn't throw rackets, doesn't question calls, and doesn't throw temper tantrums on court. And arrogance? :lol: :weirdo: Get over it. That's the main thing the Serena hating trolls like yourself say to explain your and others dislike of her.

And Washington got huge support? Umm, has Washington even won a round here before? Stop being facetious because it makes you look like a fool in the end.

What you forget to mention is that she yelled all this to the crowd because the crowd had been hostile in the first place.
Then I highly doubt that they heard what she said, let alone understood.
Remember, we French people can't speak English because we are just dumb and smelly and rude and arrogant.

Dave.
May 29th, 2009, 09:56 PM
Well Dave, let me break it down for you:

-Venus and Serena are two black women with imposing games and more accomplished than any black female tennis player in history.

-The only reason they support Monfis, Tsonga, and other black French players is because they're French.

-What other African American player is in the position of a Venus or Serena? If you're referring to them supporting a Chanda Rubin in the past or other black players the argument holds no merit because none of those players pose a threat from tournament to tournament.

In my opinion, it's not about support but more so respect. I don't expect the French crowds to fully embrace the sisters or any other player for that matter. My problem is they treat the sisters differently than the other players they don't particularly like. That has to do with racist attitudes and prejudiced beliefs. It's actually disturbing to me that many people defend that behavior.

- True ;)

- How do you know that? Why would people with racist attitudes let nationality get in the way of that? Many people are convinced the Indian Wells 2001 incident was down to racism, and that was in the US towards Black American players. Not just IW, I've read many on here accuse the US Open crowds of racist attitudes towards Serena and Venus.

- I believe if these people were actually racist towards black people, they wouldn't support black players period. Whether or not they are from the same country as them, or whether or not they were a threat to win the tournament. Can't just list certain conditions and create a category to which only Venus and Serena fall into.

- I agree that many at the French Open perhaps do not have the respect that other tournament crowds have for the great players, and I don't like the behaviour of the French crowd towards certain players at all. But I don't think it's due to racism and I find it disturbing that so many seem to be able to just throw that word around for any situation, many of whom probably have not experienced racism, aswell as accusing an entire community (or at least the majority) of people as holding these prejudiced beliefs.

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 09:57 PM
LOL Do you really think people support players based on their sponsors ? :lol: :lol: So far in France I have seen a grand total of 0 commercials for Babolat or Lacoste involving Roddick! so obviously everybody in France must know what his sponsors are :lol: but whatever you are probably not being serious.
Also I remember that he got booed off the court 1 or 2 years ago when he got injured. Since then I have not watched any of his matches at RG so I don't know. The crowd probably doesn't care much about him.

Agree, plus French people usually don't get a chance to really hate on Roddick - he's usually out in the first-second round. This year he's got a good draw.

bobbynorwich
May 29th, 2009, 09:58 PM
French crowd just doesn't like them period............................................ ....

The French just don't like Americans period .......

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 10:00 PM
WOW! You are an expert to know people's mind and to say that this is racist and that are not without any ACTUAL proof.

You should contribute to the society, not just sitting in front of the PC complaining. Psychology needs you.

Until someone can give a rational explanation as to why the the French crowd reacts so differently to the sisters compared to other disliked players I'll continue to call them out on their prejudiced behavior.;)

And since you have no idea what I've contributed to society it's best that you stay in your lane. :)

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 10:01 PM
The French just don't like Americans period .......

And the reverse is true too ...................

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 10:01 PM
What you forget to mention is that she yelled all this to the crowd because the crowd had been hostile in the first place.
Then I highly doubt that they heard what she said, let alone understood.
Remember, we French people can't speak English because we are just dumb and smelly and rude and arrogant.

you are a breath of fresh air at this forum ;)

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 10:04 PM
What you forget to mention is that she yelled all this to the crowd because the crowd had been hostile in the first place.
Then I highly doubt that they heard what she said, let alone understood.
Remember, we French people can't speak English because we are just dumb and smelly and rude and arrogant.

lol

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Do you have other threads to stalk besides those related to the sisters? I know Justine has retired but you're starting to get desperate Matt. :lol: Your girl has packed up her tennis skirt, maybe it's time for you to cheer for someone else instead of obsessing over the Williams.:lol:


You're so clever. But why didn't you simply answer my question? I could tell you why but I'm too nice to say it :tape:

I have plenty of player to cheer for, thank you very much. You don't need to bring Justine into this, even though I know you're still bitter about what happened in 2007 :hug:

Svetlana.
May 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Until someone can give a rational explanation as to why the the French crowd reacts so differently to the sisters compared to other disliked players I'll continue to call them out on their prejudiced behavior.;)

By doing so don’t you think you are being disrespectful to millions of white Williams supporters?

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 10:05 PM
That is ALL subjective. Anyone whose saying those matches were any good are BIASED. Plain and Simple. Anyone who says that those awful 2006 and 2008 finals were better than the 2002 final are biased as well. :shrug:
By the same token, anyone who says the 2002 final was better than 2006 or 2008 are just as biased.

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 10:06 PM
Until someone can give a rational explanation as to why the the French crowd reacts so differently to the sisters compared to other disliked players I'll continue to call them out on their prejudiced behavior.;)

And since you have no idea what I've contributed to society it's best that you stay in your lane. :)

and untill you can prove the crowd treats venus and serena any different to sharapova, vika ect then most of us will continue to think the prejudiced behavior is in your head.

taevaughn
May 29th, 2009, 10:07 PM
The French just don't like Americans period .......

thats really it and also they just totally love to boo. its awesome that they really get into it and stuff but it doesnt bother me that they dont care for vee. whatever. :shrug:

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 10:09 PM
and untill you can prove the crowd treats venus and serena any different to sharapova, vika ect then most of us will continue to think the prejudiced behavior is in your head.

And as long as Sharapova and especially Vika choose to antagonize the crowd by yelling expletives at them, throwing temper tantrums, slamming rackets and questioning calls incessantly while Venus and Serena do none of this, we will know that you conveniently shutting out prejudice is just in your head.

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 10:11 PM
2006 was that crap match with Kunzetsova? :spit: Horrible tennis and had more UE's than the 2002 match. 2008? Another horrific match with Dinara choking and letting the pressure get to her.


:rolleyes: Have you even seen that final from 2008? It was a high quality match with both players having many more winners than unforced errors. But I will stop now since argueing with you is pointless because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. :tape:

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 10:13 PM
And as long as Sharapova and especially Vika choose to antagonize the crowd by yelling expletives at them, throwing temper tantrums, slamming rackets and questioning calls incessantly while Venus and Serena do none of this, we will know that you conveniently shutting out prejudice is just in your head.

well prehaps you should tell richards GF to stop cheering df because there was no booing untill she started doing that with venus.

and im sure you saw serenas horrid attitude against klara, screaming, looking ready to cry, grunting incredibley loud.

i guess you just ignore antics like serena pulls on court.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 10:14 PM
:rolleyes: Have you even seen that final from 2008? It was a high quality match with both players having many more winners than unforced errors. But I will stop now since argueing with you is pointless because you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. :tape:

:rolleyes: That 2008 final was horrific as many of the recent French Open finals have been. There were SO many errors from Safina and she played a nervous and jittery match. She was not even close to the same player she was earlier in the tournament. At least in the 2002 final nerves weren't what decided it. There were alot of errors in that match I admit but Venus and Serena at their best are faster than any other player of all time so they couldn't hit many winners against each other. :shrug:

Matt01
May 29th, 2009, 10:19 PM
:rolleyes: That 2008 final was horrific as many of the recent French Open finals have been. There were SO many errors from Safina and she played a nervous and jittery match. She was not even close to the same player she was earlier in the tournament. At least in the 2002 final nerves weren't what decided it. There were alot of errors in that match I admit but Venus and Serena at their best are faster than any other player of all time so they couldn't hit many winners against each other. :shrug:


:lol: Ok I will stop replying now to save you from embarassing yourself even more.

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 10:20 PM
well prehaps you should tell richards GF to stop cheering df because there was no booing untill she started doing that with venus.

and im sure you saw serenas horrid attitude against klara, screaming, looking ready to cry, grunting incredibley loud.

i guess you just ignore antics like serena pulls on court.

:rolleyes: She wasn't intentionally celebrating double faults and you know it. She was just trying to pump Venus up since she had one the point and it's not like she continuously celebrated those double faults and you know it. That was not her motive.

And Serena's horrid attitude against Klara? :bs: She had that crybaby face on in parts of the match but that should have NO bearing on the French crowd. Other players, especially Safina have their own crybaby face when they are down in a match. What does that have to do with anything? So, Serena should be booed because she's dissapointed in her play on court and looks like she wants to cry? :bs: And, screaming? When did she scream? I only heard her scream "Come on" and there is nothing wrong with that. I have heard JJ, Safina, Ivanovic, and Kuznetsiva scream "Come on" in their matches although they were in other languages yet they didn't get booed. And grunting incredibly loud? More :bs: You are REALLY reaching aren't you. Serena has always grunted loud so what's new? As has Monica, Sharapova, etc. You're digging your own grave. But, if the French crowd is booing Serena because of her "horrid attitude" as you put it, and her crybaby face, grunts and screaming, then they are even more pathetic than I imagined. :lol:

G1Player2
May 29th, 2009, 10:21 PM
:lol: Ok I will stop replying now to save you from embarassing yourself even more.

Whose faster than them at their best? Nobody in tennis that's for sure. Not Graf, Navratilova, etc.

Diam's
May 29th, 2009, 10:22 PM
And as long as Sharapova and especially Vika choose to antagonize the crowd by yelling expletives at them, throwing temper tantrums, slamming rackets and questioning calls incessantly while Venus and Serena do none of this, we will know that you conveniently shutting out prejudice is just in your head.

I see that you have not read my post so I will repeat myself :D
1 - She yelled at the crowd because they were hostile in the first.
2 - The crowd certainly did not hear what she said.
Except on this board the "up your ass" incident has not been discussed at all so it has had no impact on the crowd behavior this year.

The thing is that like Serena, Sharapova is just generally disliked in France.

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 10:28 PM
or maybe they get bored of it being brought up at every possible chance, by the same set of posters, when as of yet the only proof of actualy racism was at serenas beloved miami in 2007 and the man was removed.
This answer from you is the perfect example and so typical. According to racists and many defenders of racists, they have to actually hear the N word and see cross burnings, etc., etc. in order to have "proof of racism." For some reason, I don't believe you're that ignorant, but I could be wrong.

Of course not everything has to do with racism, but denying its existence in some cases is not going to make it go away. Racism doesn't have to be as blatant as Miami 2007 to admit to it. In fact, the worse form of racism is the subtle ones, because it's much easier for coward racists to hide their hatred while doing much more damage.

2moretogo
May 29th, 2009, 10:29 PM
Yeah I think the main reason for the lack of support is that she is perceived as a little too arrogant and "in your face".
That's the kind of behavior that may appeal to Americans but not to most French people.
In France normal and encouraged behavior = being quite reserved.
Different countries. Different mentalities. Different tastes.
As simple as that.
On the other hand Venus is not perceived as arrogant and so the crowd is not automatically against her.
Another factor is that most people are also influenced by what is said on TV - and I must say that in the past French commentators were rather critical of both Venus and Serena's game ... but I think the "boring games" argument was just an alibi and that they just don't like them.

Monfils and Tsonga are two of the most in your face players Ive ever seen, so I dont think thats right tbh.

The boring bit is probs more right, they don't play spectacular clay court tennis, but that shouldnt mean theyre disliked really.

I was about to say the exact same thing. I hate to say this but I agree with Martina N when she said that the French crowd do not like it when women show emotion. That's a bit of it, but I think it is also the "boring" factor to them. They want a type of show- flair- and I think that is why players like Tsonga, Monfils, Federer, Justine and Momo are so beloved, and why Simon, Nadal, Serena, Maria, and Venus are not so much.

The Dawntreader
May 29th, 2009, 10:32 PM
To be honest, does it add to Serena's self-esteem whether she is liked or not? I doubt she gives two craps. Popularity is nice, but it shouldn't be something you strive for as an aim.

Where's all this feminism crap coming from? So we're assuming Suzanne Lenglen was universally reviled in France then?:tape::lol:

djul14
May 29th, 2009, 10:38 PM
Shes a black woman, they may embrace the black French males, but a black Americna female isnt the same thing. Please take this sh*t anyway Ree.
:lol: Hope (for you) you were trying to be fun.

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 10:39 PM
This answer from you is the perfect example and so typical. According to racists and many defenders of racists, they have to actually hear the N word and see cross burnings, etc., etc. in order to have "proof of racism." For some reason, I don't believe you're that ignorant, but I could be wrong.

Of course not everything has to do with racism, but denying its existence in some cases is not going to make it go away. Racism doesn't have to be as blatant as Miami 2007 to admit to it. In fact, the worse form of racism is the subtle ones, because it's much easier for coward racists to hide their hatred while doing much more damage.

so next time one of the black posters on here has a dig at sharapova shall i consider the fact that it might be because shes white, or do i give them the benefit of the doubt?

it seems there are many posters on here that instantly dislike maria and are black, yet its not questioned if its because of her skin colour, yet any white poster who dislikes serena has to justify it to others because they are instantly tarnished like you have just done with the thought they *might* be racist.

where i live you're innocent untill proven quilty, throwing around accusations when unfounded is slander.

as for your wording i think you should strongly think about it in future because i was very close to reporting you because you're insinuating i am racist.

2moretogo
May 29th, 2009, 10:47 PM
so next time one of the black posters on here has a dig at sharapova shall i consider the fact that it might be because shes white, or do i give them the benefit of the doubt?

it seems there are many posters on here that instantly dislike maria and are black, yet its not questioned if its because of her skin colour, yet any white poster who dislikes serena has to justify it to others because they are instantly tarnished like you have just done with the thought they *might* be racist.

where i live you're innocent untill proven quilty, throwing around accusations when unfounded is slander.

as for your wording i think you should strongly think about it in future because i was very close to reporting you because you're insinuating i am racist.

Are you serious? Really? Have you met many of the posters on here? And how do you know that the ones who are black hate Maria? Is that because it isn't possible for white people not to like Venus and/or Serena and still hate the mess out of Sharapova. The fact is you don't know, and you know what, it is annoying when someone does this. You are changing/turning the issue of the racism which Serena/Venus may receive versus some other players of color- into making white people the victim. Like this is the only frame of reference in which you can talk about race. Wow, just wow. It is not the same. Please get a pot to piss in before you you make over generalized statments.

djul14
May 29th, 2009, 10:48 PM
It's not a matter of skin color, pleaaaase, we are in France, do you need a picture of our national soccer squad, do you need to see and hear how Tsonga, Ouana, and Monfils are embraced here ? And be serious we are at the FO, not in a soccer stadium, sure there are some middle class people, but not that much trust me, and when middle class people finally experience the FO once in their lives, they are just so happy to be here that they would even cheer without players on court :p.
I just think most of people dislike Serena because of her playing style, power and power and some of her wondeful comments years ago (about war and the french), or because of her extraordinary humility when SHE gives a match to her opponent (yeah because SHE never lose...)

Oh yeah and above all, it is a pam shriver article so ... why are we discussing at all :p

homogenius
May 29th, 2009, 10:56 PM
We have one of the best slam in ages, and the only thing that seems interesting to some freaks here is to find some racist behavior at all cost (when neither of the sister complained about anythiung like that and there hasn't even been an incident in their matches).Poor souls.

darrinbaker00
May 29th, 2009, 11:06 PM
I thought Pam Shriver said it best yesterday: "For Venus to be successful at Roland Garros, she has to pretend that the surface is green." ;)

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 11:10 PM
so next time one of the black posters on here has a dig at sharapova shall i consider the fact that it might be because shes white, or do i give them the benefit of the doubt?

it seems there are many posters on here that instantly dislike maria and are black, yet its not questioned if its because of her skin colour, yet any white poster who dislikes serena has to justify it to others because they are instantly tarnished like you have just done with the thought they *might* be racist.

where i live you're innocent untill proven quilty, throwing around accusations when unfounded is slander.

as for your wording i think you should strongly think about it in future because i was very close to reporting you because you're insinuating i am racist.
How many of those "black posters" who hate Maria, because she's white, have you met?

As for reporting me, I'm so shaking right now. Don't just come close to doing it, just do it. It will further show how much a coward you truly are. You obviously can't handle any type of discussion regarding racism, yet you're always the first to bash and be critical of anyone who brought it up. And in the future don't you dare threaten me. You have no rights. Any poster in here can report your ass as well, including myself.

djul14
May 29th, 2009, 11:12 PM
There was a time french crowd considered (and still does) a german tennis player as one of them :p
So, come on, if we can love germans:p:lol:

V's a star
May 29th, 2009, 11:26 PM
:haha: so much bs coming out of sammy's mouth today

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 11:27 PM
- True ;)

- How do you know that? Why would people with racist attitudes let nationality get in the way of that? Many people are convinced the Indian Wells 2001 incident was down to racism, and that was in the US towards Black American players. Not just IW, I've read many on here accuse the US Open crowds of racist attitudes towards Serena and Venus.
!:wavey:
Hmm...could it be the hunger for their own countryman/woman to win the FO title? In that regard, they don't see color and willingly accept black French players.. It works a bit different in the United States. For a period it was about finding a GWH to defeat the sisters until they realized their wasn't any emerging players on either tour.:lol: America isn't necessarily thirsty for a slam champion either.

- I believe if these people were actually racist towards black people, they wouldn't support black players period. Whether or not they are from the same country as them, or whether or not they were a threat to win the tournament. Can't just list certain conditions and create a category to which only Venus and Serena fall into.

So these people can't be racist because they support black tennis players from their country of origin? :confused: I'll venture to say the only reason the French support those black players(Tsonga,Monfis etc.) is because of their nationality.

- I agree that many at the French Open perhaps do not have the respect that other tournament crowds have for the great players, and I don't like the behaviour of the French crowd towards certain players at all. But I don't think it's due to racism and I find it disturbing that so many seem to be able to just throw that word around for any situation, many of whom probably have not experienced racism, aswell as accusing an entire community (or at least the majority) of people as holding these prejudiced beliefs.

Your perception of the world is different than mines and that's fine. I understand you feel their may be other contributing factors to the hatred directed towards the sisters at the French. But many people who've experienced racism can recognize covert racism when it's right before their eyes. What I notice is the naysayers are in denial as to race being a factor in any faucet of life. They don't even consider it to be a possibility in any situation and become highly offended when it's mentioned.

serenus_2k8
May 29th, 2009, 11:28 PM
Just thought Id say a thank you to everyone who has contributed their perspective and their point of view to the discussion earlier on! I dont know how every community or every individual works and thinks and I certainly wouldnt pretend that I do, but part of message boards like these is to get an insight into the opinions of others who we wouldnt necessarily get to speak to.

A lot of people got really angry, and some took it upon themselves to leave bad reps (and insults such as retard, from Langers) and even expressed their happiness in the deaths of innocent Britons. Im confident their bad karma will catch up with them, and Im glad that I for one dont need to be ashamed of posting unprovoked insults at other posters. I just gave my view, which may well be totally wrong but its the view that I have, and I am genuinely pleased to have recieved feedback!

Good night to all of you, god bless :wavey:

Bijoux0021
May 29th, 2009, 11:29 PM
Are you serious? Really? Have you met many of the posters on here? And how do you know that the ones who are black hate Maria? Is that because it isn't possible for white people not to like Venus and/or Serena and still hate the mess out of Sharapova. The fact is you don't know, and you know what, it is annoying when someone does this. You are changing/turning the issue of the racism which Serena/Venus may receive versus some other players of color- into making white people the victim. Like this is the only frame of reference in which you can talk about race. Wow, just wow. It is not the same. Please get a pot to piss in before you you make over generalized statments.
:worship::worship::worship:

sammy01
May 29th, 2009, 11:35 PM
Just thought Id say a thank you to everyone who has contributed their perspective and their point of view to the discussion earlier on! I dont know how every community or every individual works and thinks and I certainly wouldnt pretend that I do, but part of message boards like these is to get an insight into the opinions of others who we wouldnt necessarily get to speak to.

A lot of people got really angry, and some took it upon themselves to leave bad reps (and insults such as retard, from Langers) and even expressed their happiness in the deaths of innocent Britons. Im confident their bad karma will catch up with them, and Im glad that I for one dont need to be ashamed of posting unprovoked insults at other posters. I just gave my view, which may well be totally wrong but its the view that I have, and I am genuinely pleased to have recieved feedback!

Good night to all of you, god bless :wavey:


well you are the only one thats been bad repped trust me ;)

as for your first part its a nice sentiment but so untrue, you and certain other posters haven't taken on board anything i've posted, though its been constructive, unlike some of the responses i've received.

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 11:46 PM
You're so clever. But why didn't you simply answer my question? I could tell you why but I'm too nice to say it :tape:

I have plenty of player to cheer for, thank you very much. You don't need to bring Justine into this, even though I know you're still bitter about what happened in 2007 :hug:

shaking in my boots hoping Matt doesn't expose me...:lol:

Aww Matt...you're so nice to me. Yippeee!!! :rolls:

Considering your track record in Williams related threads I see you as nothing but entertainment. And trust, while Justine was a great champion she's packed up her tennis skirt forever. What will you do now Matt? I hope you don't slit those wrists when the sisters retire. Who else will you have to stalk then?:sad::lol:

harloo
May 29th, 2009, 11:48 PM
This answer from you is the perfect example and so typical. According to racists and many defenders of racists, they have to actually hear the N word and see cross burnings, etc., etc. in order to have "proof of racism." For some reason, I don't believe you're that ignorant, but I could be wrong.

Of course not everything has to do with racism, but denying its existence in some cases is not going to make it go away. Racism doesn't have to be as blatant as Miami 2007 to admit to it. In fact, the worse form of racism is the subtle ones, because it's much easier for coward racists to hide their hatred while doing much more damage.

:worship::worship:Well stated.

Sha_ra_po_va
May 30th, 2009, 01:17 AM
The easy answer is, that french crowds know their tennis. They know that serena williams disrespects the women's game by constantly not trying/not training/belittling her opponents/excusing her defeats/talking trash/talking herself up/acting better on the court than she ever did on screen. Her latest little public relations chef d'oeuvre about safina would have probably been the last straw... any right-minded tennis fan would want to see serena williams beaten and would not want to offer her support. The fact that she keeps coming back and winning titles says more about the hideous state of women's tennis at the moment than about her skill and prowess.:help:

Uranium
May 30th, 2009, 01:22 AM
The easy answer is, that french crowds know their tennis. They know that serena williams disrespects the women's game by constantly not trying/not training/belittling her opponents/excusing her defeats/talking trash/talking herself up/acting better on the court than she ever did on screen. Her latest little public relations chef d'oeuvre about safina would have probably been the last straw... any right-minded tennis fan would want to see serena williams beaten and would not want to offer her support. The fact that she keeps coming back and winning titles says more about the hideous state of women's tennis at the moment than about her skill and prowess.:help:

STFU:o

Brooks.
May 30th, 2009, 02:32 AM
2003.

StarDuvallGrant
May 30th, 2009, 02:33 AM
The easy answer is, that french crowds know their tennis. They know that serena williams disrespects the women's game by constantly not trying/not training/belittling her opponents/excusing her defeats/talking trash/talking herself up/acting better on the court than she ever did on screen. Her latest little public relations chef d'oeuvre about safina would have probably been the last straw... any right-minded tennis fan would want to see serena williams beaten and would not want to offer her support. The fact that she keeps coming back and winning titles says more about the hideous state of women's tennis at the moment than about her skill and prowess.:help:

She keeps on winning, especially at the slams because she's better than the rest of the tour.

danieln1
May 30th, 2009, 03:02 AM
I hate this crowd since 1999, they can´t apreciate a GOAT like Serena, they´re the worst ever, classless, disgusting, no taste at all, they even rooted against Maria in 2007 and 2008... And they had the nerve to boo a 16 year old, poor girl, I hope she didn´t cry

Move Roland Garros to another country, those people don´t deserve to have a grand slam, for such hostile crowd! :haha: :haha:

Roookie
May 30th, 2009, 03:10 AM
The crowd booo-ed Rafa Nadal when he questioned a bad call (he hit an ace that was called out) at match point today. This crow is just disgusting. They don't have respect for NO ONE, let alone the WS.

SAEKeithSerena
May 30th, 2009, 03:16 AM
shut them the fuck up and win the title babygirl:)


so sad in this day of age.

V's a star
May 30th, 2009, 07:51 AM
The easy answer is, that french crowds know their tennis. They know that serena williams disrespects the women's game by constantly not trying/not training/belittling her opponents/excusing her defeats/talking trash/talking herself up/acting better on the court than she ever did on screen. Her latest little public relations chef d'oeuvre about safina would have probably been the last straw... any right-minded tennis fan would want to see serena williams beaten and would not want to offer her support. The fact that she keeps coming back and winning titles says more about the hideous state of women's tennis at the moment than about her skill and prowess.:help:

but what about Venus :sad: its not fair

serenus_2k8
May 30th, 2009, 10:11 AM
The crowd booo-ed Rafa Nadal when he questioned a bad call (he hit an ace that was called out) at match point today. This crow is just disgusting. They don't have respect for NO ONE, let alone the WS.

Yeh its disgusting

but what about Venus :sad: its not fair

If you think the respect of the crowd means more to Vee than the respect of her sister then ur crazy.

njnetswill
May 30th, 2009, 10:16 AM
I just don't think they like successful women with high levels of swagger. I mean the RG crowd probably hates Serena and Hingis for the same reason.

StephenUK
May 30th, 2009, 10:18 AM
Why should the French crowd cheer Serena Williams when she is not French? Has she done anything in particular to charm the crowd? The main reason why she won't get much support is that she never does well at Roland Garros (besides 2002)so I imagine a lot of French people think she is overrated and a bit too full of herself.

I think the French crowd is great if harsh and let's not forget, they are happy to boo their own if they fail to impress, look at what happened to Alize Cornet the other day.

djul14
May 30th, 2009, 10:32 AM
The easy answer is, that french crowds know their tennis. They know that serena williams disrespects the women's game by constantly not trying/not training/belittling her opponents/excusing her defeats/talking trash/talking herself up/acting better on the court than she ever did on screen. Her latest little public relations chef d'oeuvre about safina would have probably been the last straw... any right-minded tennis fan would want to see serena williams beaten and would not want to offer her support. The fact that she keeps coming back and winning titles says more about the hideous state of women's tennis at the moment than about her skill and prowess.:help:

__

Matt01
May 30th, 2009, 11:01 AM
shaking in my boots hoping Matt doesn't expose me...:lol:

Aww Matt...you're so nice to me. Yippeee!!! :rolls:

Considering your track record in Williams related threads I see you as nothing but entertainment. And trust, while Justine was a great champion she's packed up her tennis skirt forever. What will you do now Matt? I hope you don't slit those wrists when the sisters retire. Who else will you have to stalk then?:sad::lol:


Why do you care so much about me and my faves? It's getting :scared:

Bayo
May 30th, 2009, 11:04 AM
I'm not bold enough to say that it's racism, because as I've said in the past I'm not in touch with Parisian sensibilities. But, if we decide to go down that avenue, and so as to not fall into the trap of comparing them to say, Blake, Monfils, Rubin, Tsonga, etc., I think that we must recognize that in the history of tennis Venus and Serena represent the greatest success of any two people of color, EVER. These other players have never won anything of particular note, nor came even close to dominating this game the way the Williams Sisters have in the past.

Didn't Arthur Ashe once say that one day black athletes would play tennis and not appease the majority-white audiences the way he did, but rather be unapologetically black? I think that maybe what affects them in Paris is the same reason it took them years to win over the New York crowd - their OWN crowd. There are many big and muscular women in the sport today, but it's undeniable that their comes a certain fear factor with black women. (Listen to the last verse of Nina Simone's "Four Women" if you want a particularly unique insight into this modern stereotype of the "mad black woman." :D ) Call that nonsense if you will, but I know it to be a fact.

So, if any French readers are offended by this thread, I don't think they should be, because the same scenarios have taken place in the US (the Indian Wells incident foremost among them). And I'll never forget the way the US Open crowd suddenly turned into a pack of Francophiles as Venus played Mauresmo at the 2002 USO, or when she was heckled the night she played Clijsters in 2005.

But ultimately I think what has always made them such divisive figures is really a variety of things, of which race is not excluded of course. They have always exuded pride and bravado, which endeared them to many but turned just as many against them, which I understand. Many hated Hingis for her confidence. And of course there are all of the things that Serena says post-defeat. :lol: Then there is their size, the physical imposition they bring to the court. There's the ferocity of their game, which many find to be ugly tennis. Which, again, I understand. And of course there is that unapologetic blackness.

I think it's all contributed to the Williams Sisters story. Racism should not be blamed for all of the rejection they receive because, as I've tried to point out, there are many factors at play. But I find those who mock the possibility to be equally offensive.

Maybe some people are so 21st Century that when a black woman has an entire crowd, always overwhelmingly white, rooting against her, they don't recognize a difference. And maybe for me it's a product of having grown up in the American South, but I can say without pause that it always makes me uncomfortable. I often mute the television when I watch Venus and Serena's matches at Roland Garros.

sammy01
May 30th, 2009, 11:22 AM
I'm not bold enough to say that it's racism, because as I've said in the past I'm not in touch with Parisian sensibilities. But, if we decide to go down that avenue, and so as to not fall into the trap of comparing them to say, Blake, Monfils, Rubin, Tsonga, etc., I think that we must recognize that in the history of tennis Venus and Serena represent the greatest success of any two people of color, EVER. These other players have never won anything of particular note, nor came even close to dominating this game the way the Williams Sisters have in the past.

Didn't Arthur Ashe once say that one day black athletes would play tennis and not appease the majority-white audiences the way he did, but rather be unapologetically black? I think that maybe what affects them in Paris is the same reason it took them years to win over the New York crowd - their OWN crowd. There are many big and muscular women in the sport today, but it's undeniable that their comes a certain fear factor with black women. (Listen to the last verse of Nina Simone's "Four Women" if you want a particularly unique insight into this modern stereotype of the "mad black woman." :D ) Call that nonsense if you will, but I know it to be a fact.

So, if any French readers are offended by this thread, I don't think they should be, because the same scenarios have taken place in the US (the Indian Wells incident foremost among them). And I'll never forget the way the US Open crowd suddenly turned into a pack of Francophiles as Venus played Mauresmo at the 2002 USO, or when she was heckled the night she played Clijsters in 2005.

But ultimately I think what has always made them such divisive figures is really a variety of things, of which race is not excluded of course. They have always exuded pride and bravado, which endeared them to many but turned just as many against them, which I understand. Many hated Hingis for her confidence. And of course there are all of the things that Serena says post-defeat. :lol: Then there is their size, the physical imposition they bring to the court. There's the ferocity of their game, which many find to be ugly tennis. Which, again, I understand. And of course there is that unapologetic blackness.

I think it's all contributed to the Williams Sisters story. Racism should not be blamed for all of the rejection they receive because, as I've tried to point out, there are many factors at play. But I find those who mock the possibility to be equally offensive.

Maybe some people are so 21st Century that when a black woman has an entire crowd, always overwhelmingly white, rooting against her, they don't recognize a difference. And maybe for me it's a product of having grown up in the American South, but I can say without pause that it always makes me uncomfortable. I often mute the television when I watch Venus and Serena's matches at Roland Garros.

i actualy think this is a very good post, but id like to ask when sharapova, azerenka ect are being booed do you mute the t.v also? i find with some posters on this board that they instantly think the worst, it may be because of past experiences or where they grew up, but id be intrested if you felt the same reaction when white players are being booed, and if not, why not?

in an ideal world the french crowd wouldn't boo at all, but to me i just roll my eyes when they do, whoever they boo against. i can understand why they boo sometimes, sharapovas grunts, venus's dads GF being over zealous in celebration of errors and vika generally having a paddy (acting like a spoilt kid) but all 3 players just garner the same reaction fom me when they have been booed, i find it slightly uncomfortable but understand its part of the french open. in the uk at wimbledon i can imagine a collective sigh or 'tut' at any of these 3 but then i feel the british tennis fans are more refined or repressed whichever way you see it lol.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 12:02 PM
It's combination of of being black, female, American, and perceived as emotionally/physically strong--the "Michelle Obama" effect, if you will. These factors cause a "who the hell do they think they ARE?" sentiment from many people, not just Frenchmen.

Bezz
May 30th, 2009, 12:23 PM
It seems to me the french tennis crowd (lets not tarnish the whole country) don't warm to players that think there something special...They never got the Hingis, kournikova, williams, sharapova hype....so when these players come on court with all the media interest and showbiz lifestyles its almost like they root against them for that. The french loved the likes of Graf and Henin...which in comparison to the ones mentioned above are very professional and low key, considering how much they achieved in the game. I think the french just like to see genuine talent and skill, but also to see some humility in the players they watch.

serenus_2k8
May 30th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Why do you care so much about me and my faves? It's getting :scared:

The only thing ':scared:' round here is you, and your desperate need to lurk round EVERY WS thread and post anything that gets you some attention. Its so embarassing, Im really sorry you feel you need this sort of recognition tbh :hug:

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 12:45 PM
It seems to me the french tennis crowd (lets not tarnish the whole country) don't warm to players that think there something special...They never got the Hingis, kournikova, williams, sharapova hype....so when these players come on court with all the media interest and showbiz lifestyles its almost like they root against them for that. The french loved the likes of Graf and Henin...which in comparison to the ones mentioned above are very professional and low key, considering how much they achieved in the game. I think the french just like to see genuine talent and skill, but also to see some humility in the players they watch.

Implying, of course, that the Williams are arrogant and talentless.

spice_of_life
May 30th, 2009, 12:50 PM
More Williams fangirling from ESPN. :rolleyes:

Sharapova was treated like shit last year. As someone else mentioned, Nadal was booed once yesterday. The French boo their own when they're not playing well. This pity party for the Williams sisters is is getting old - just like Toni Nadal, at least once per tournament, saying Nadal is tired and/or injured. :rolleyes: The crowd certainly can be rough and not always fair or respectful, but it's not just towards the Williams sisters.

Donny
May 30th, 2009, 12:55 PM
More Williams fangirling from ESPN. :rolleyes:

Sharapova was treated like shit last year. As someone else mentioned, Nadal was booed once yesterday. The French boo their own when they're not playing well. This pity party for the Williams sisters is is getting old - just like Toni Nadal, at least once per tournament, saying Nadal is tired and/or injured. :rolleyes: The crowd certainly can be rough and not always fair or respectful, but it's not just towards the Williams sisters.

This argument doesn't make any sense. It's asserting that racists can't display negative attitudes towards people for non racist reasons.

Bezz
May 30th, 2009, 12:57 PM
Implying, of course, that the Williams are arrogant and talentless.

er no ;)...the williams sisters, hingis and sharapova are all very talented...but they bring the whole media attention with them aswel.....most of the time at other places like wimbledon and the US open they get alot of attention on and off the court...for some reason this side of them just doesn't appeal to the french public...and i dont think it ever will. The stars or popular players in paris are never really as popular ones in london or new york. Henin got lots of attention in paris, sharapova and williams in london and new york. Of course there are always some exceptions ;).

RenaSlam.
May 30th, 2009, 12:59 PM
More Williams fangirling from ESPN. :rolleyes:

Sharapova was treated like shit last year. As someone else mentioned, Nadal was booed once yesterday. The French boo their own when they're not playing well. This pity party for the Williams sisters is is getting old - just like Toni Nadal, at least once per tournament, saying Nadal is tired and/or injured. :rolleyes: The crowd certainly can be rough and not always fair or respectful, but it's not just towards the Williams sisters.

You also chose to enter a thread about a Williams sister. You don't have to post in this thread you know, dumb shit. :drool:

sammy01
May 30th, 2009, 01:00 PM
Implying, of course, that the Williams are arrogant and talentless.

you surely cant deny their arrogance, i mean you only have to look at some of the things they say.

as for 'talent' theres different types of 'talent', the french like touch play, slices, the ability to play a clay court game, venus and serenas talent lies in hitting the ball hard and impossing their obvious strength onto the game. both are valid but its obvious which type of play the crowd at RG enjoys more.

Midnight_Robber
May 30th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Bayo - yours has been one of the most thoughtful posts on this thread. I really don't think that you can be reductive about this and hope for a simple answer like 'race' or 'jingoism' or (perceived) 'arrogance' or 'lack of clay court style'.

I agree that the French prefer classical clay court tennis to out-and-out big hitting. In her disastrous match against Svazay, Venus craftily constructed a point and hit a high quality volley that pretty much forced the reluctant crowd to acknowledge it with actual applause. Too bad that points like these were few and far between. But I noticed even when she was hitting great winners with touch during the Safarova match, the crowd were definitely not behind her. Even though she was clearly struggling like mad against Szavay there wasn't a peep of support.

But it's too simple to argue that the French hate the sisters for their 'big hitting' because they are really embracing Maria at the moment even though her game is merely a variant of the WS game as it has always been (and she screams just as loudly as ever :rolleyes:); they liked Clijsters well enough, and they blew hot and cold on one of the original proponents of hot hitting and big babe tennis herself, none other than Mary Pierce. Hingis on the other hand had the silky skills that the French are supposedly connoisseurs of - but they didn't exactly embrace her, did they? So I don't buy into the argument that it's the sisters style (or lack of style) of play that elicits such hostility from the crowd, even if it may be a factor.

With the WS, I think that the notion of an aggregate intersectionality rather than a reductive 'either/or' scenario is useful. Simply put, there are numerous factors at play here. They are statuesque, muscular, powerful, successful, rich (and don't try to hide it), black American celebrities who come straight out of Compton (as opposed to the Harvard educated James Blake). They openly wear their class and cultural heritage with pride. They have never been a part of the tennis establishment and have set themselves apart from it, they are confident or, in the eyes of some, arrogant, they are media savvy yet don't have cuddly and uncomplicated personas and so forth.

They're not out to set the masses at ease. Or as Oracene once observed, there is no 'step n fetchit' with Venus and Serena.

Add in the critical factor of gender to the powder keg and you end up with an explosive mix. An arrogant, physically powerful man is one thing. People will roundly condemn those qualities in a woman, let alone in a black woman (who are generally supposed to be the bottom of the heap).

There is no universal 'black' experience, so there is no point in people pointing to Arthur Ashe, James Blake, Josselin Ouanna, Gael Monfils, Yannick Noah, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga and citing them as 'evidence' that race is not at all a factor. Even dragging in Chanda Rubin into the proceedings and tossing in a reference to the 'cablasian' Tiger Woods proves nothing.

All these people have in common is being black - that's the one point of intersection, but most of them are male, most of them are French, none of them have the class background and origins of the Williams sisters, with many of them being respectably 'middle class' or higher. (You think Arthur Ashe would ever have dared turn up in beads or bling?)

And of the lot of them only Arthur Ashe is a multi-slam winning champion. Save for Yannick,none of the others, to date, have even won a slam, so gee whiz of course primarily white audiences just love 'em. :rolleyes: Most of them aren't physically imposing players either, save perhaps for Tsonga, who along with his extroverted bravado gets the arrogant 'tag', when he plays outside of RG. (Gael's impressively athletic but he's also a stringy goofball and clown.)

You think Chanda Rubin ever "threatened" anyone? And James Blake is blandly ingratiating and of little consequence. Compare this to Serena's ripped muscles and roar or Venus's tall hauteur and stone-cold demeanour and you will realise that there are many different ways to be "black".

None of the other players have ever been perceived as a 'threat' in the way that the WS are. (Though I do think that if Tsonga actually started winning some slams then you might suddenly see a very different, revealing attitude emerge...Fact of the matter remains, there is no black, male equivalent to the WS in tennis.)

It doesn't matter if the WS are injured, struggling, suffering from family tragedy, lower-ranked or the underdogs - the one variable that doesn't change is that they are perceived as unnaturally strong (and thus 'unfeminine), arrogant, black women who deserve their comeuppance irrespective of who they play. Even though they struggle on the clay and have done so for years, just the fear that they might win is enough to get the crowd going.

They may periodically boo other players but usually, at some point they will get behind them, especially if they are perceived as the underdog. That has NEVER happened with WS who are never, ever positioned as the underdog no matter what their circumstances. And the crowd is never just neutral or lukewarm, but actively roots to see them lose.

StephenUK
May 30th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I'm not bold enough to say that it's racism, because as I've said in the past I'm not in touch with Parisian sensibilities. But, if we decide to go down that avenue, and so as to not fall into the trap of comparing them to say, Blake, Monfils, Rubin, Tsonga, etc., I think that we must recognize that in the history of tennis Venus and Serena represent the greatest success of any two people of color, EVER. These other players have never won anything of particular note, nor came even close to dominating this game the way the Williams Sisters have in the past.

Didn't Arthur Ashe once say that one day black athletes would play tennis and not appease the majority-white audiences the way he did, but rather be unapologetically black? I think that maybe what affects them in Paris is the same reason it took them years to win over the New York crowd - their OWN crowd. There are many big and muscular women in the sport today, but it's undeniable that their comes a certain fear factor with black women. (Listen to the last verse of Nina Simone's "Four Women" if you want a particularly unique insight into this modern stereotype of the "mad black woman." :D ) Call that nonsense if you will, but I know it to be a fact.

So, if any French readers are offended by this thread, I don't think they should be, because the same scenarios have taken place in the US (the Indian Wells incident foremost among them). And I'll never forget the way the US Open crowd suddenly turned into a pack of Francophiles as Venus played Mauresmo at the 2002 USO, or when she was heckled the night she played Clijsters in 2005.

But ultimately I think what has always made them such divisive figures is really a variety of things, of which race is not excluded of course. They have always exuded pride and bravado, which endeared them to many but turned just as many against them, which I understand. Many hated Hingis for her confidence. And of course there are all of the things that Serena says post-defeat. :lol: Then there is their size, the physical imposition they bring to the court. There's the ferocity of their game, which many find to be ugly tennis. Which, again, I understand. And of course there is that unapologetic blackness.

I think it's all contributed to the Williams Sisters story. Racism should not be blamed for all of the rejection they receive because, as I've tried to point out, there are many factors at play. But I find those who mock the possibility to be equally offensive.

Maybe some people are so 21st Century that when a black woman has an entire crowd, always overwhelmingly white, rooting against her, they don't recognize a difference. And maybe for me it's a product of having grown up in the American South, but I can say without pause that it always makes me uncomfortable. I often mute the television when I watch Venus and Serena's matches at Roland Garros.

But it's not the American South! It's pretty obvious that you like others are bringing your own baggage into an equation where it is irrelevant. Surely we have got beyond the stage that white people have to cheer a black person because of slavery guilt. I reserve the right to cheer or boo any player, including the Williams sisters, regardless of colour. If that makes you uncomfortable because of your past history, then I am sad, but I won't stop for that reason.