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2009
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:00 AM
My cat is a tortoise-shell, 3 years old... never really seemed to kill birds until the last few months! She has killed 3 birds in the last 3 weeks, one was during the night, but the rest were during the day, so I can't exactly lock her up all day long.

I gave her a collar with a bell, which seemed to be working until she somehow lost it, and caught again.

I want to know what the best way to prevent, or reduce this killing is. I've heard of the 'catbib' which is inexpensive and seems good enough, does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks in advance

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:05 AM
:eek:

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:07 AM
How does a cat kill a bird?:eek:I never saw this,a bird can fly and a cat can't be that quick I think:scratch::confused:

Any videos?:unsure:

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:11 AM
I am sorry,I think I have no idea:lol:

Keadz
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:12 AM
It is called nature, you can't stop it from happening. That Catbib thing is just cruel, if you were to get that maybe you should consider getting some pet birds because you obviously care about them more than your cat.

Seriously, if you don't like the fact your cat is killing other animals, you probably never should have got one. It is just part of who they are.

Usually a bell works fine, just keep using that.

Birds are annoying anyway :p They wake you up in the morning.

Scotso
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:27 AM
I gave her a collar with a bell, which seemed to be working until she somehow lost it, and caught again.

Cats are pretty smart. :p

Does she bring them in the house or something, is that why you're annoyed? If she's just killing and leaving them outside, I don't see the issue. At least they're dead, my cat used to bring live birds into the house and let them go.

I agree with the above poster that the catbib is cruel. Don't do that to your cat.

Scotso
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:30 AM
How does a cat kill a bird?:eek:I never saw this,a bird can fly and a cat can't be that quick I think:scratch::confused:

Any videos?:unsure:

It isn't that difficult for them, they usually just hide in a bush or something and wait until the birds are close enough to be pounced on before they realize what's happening.

^bibi^
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:51 AM
It's a cat .. cat kill birds :shrug:

TheBoiledEgg
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:19 AM
at least you know your cat wont go hungry when you go on holidays.

you cant stop the cat doing what comes naturally.

Lennval
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:24 AM
nature thing, cats hunt!

Boreas
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Yeah, how can I stop neighbour's cat from killing gold fish in my garden pond. Fish survived a tough winter and now this annoying cat is killing them on by one. I don't feel like building a wall around the pond, more like shooting that cat:o:devil: Of course this cat is killing birds too:help:

rockstar
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:29 AM
just find a better way to attach a bell i guess?

Miss Atomic Bomb
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:29 AM
Cats are evil :smash:

Shuji Shuriken
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Cats are evil :smash:
Completely agree :lol:. Hate them.

FORZA SARITA
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:20 PM
i've lost the count of how many birds has killed my dog :tape: once killed even a cat :o

The Dawntreader
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Cats are predatory, and will kill things if they can. It's quite natural for cats.

eck
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Cats are pretty smart. :p

Does she bring them in the house or something, is that why you're annoyed? If she's just killing and leaving them outside, I don't see the issue. At least they're dead, my cat used to bring live birds into the house and let them go.

I agree with the above poster that the catbib is cruel. Don't do that to your cat.

:rolls::spit:

Mine killed a rat. I was quite happy, but too bad it was inside the house.

What's a catbib?

The bell is the best way to go.

i've lost the count of how many birds has killed my dog :tape: once killed even a cat :o

Wow, birds killed your dog? :speakles:

frenchie
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:42 PM
My dog killed a mouse last week!

I was walking in my house when suddenly I found a piece of mouse on the floor....
I yelled on her not to do it again

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:43 PM
:rolls::spit:

Mine killed a rat. I was quite happy, but too bad it was inside the house.

What's a catbib?

The bell is the best way to go.



Wow, birds killed your dog? :speakles:


his/her sentence has an english issue I think, it should be "how many birds have been killed by my dog":scratch:

Dandy_Warhol
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Sylvester :awww:

i'm sorry i have no idea how your cat can stop killing birds :hug:

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:46 PM
My dog killed a mouse last week!

I was walking in my house when suddenly I found a piece of mouse on the floor....
I yelled on her not to do it again

How about her performance these days?:lol:

Lin Lin
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:48 PM
suddenly I found a piece of mouse on the floor:scared::eek:

ZeroSOFInfinity
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Uh-oh... your cat is now turning into a serial killer.... beware... :scared:

Well, at least he's not a CAT-burglar.... :P

Dandy_Warhol
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:52 PM
i hope cats are always adorable as these:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e219/spotless_rougedirector/random%20stuffs/cat-dance.gif

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e219/spotless_rougedirector/random%20stuffs/kitten.gif

ImaVeggie
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Don't let the cat go outside then.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:41 PM
you really should keep your cat indoors. if your cat is an outdoor cat it will kill birds.

if you live in an area with ANY endangered bird or small mammal species please leave your cat indoors. countless endangered bird species were/are in that state because of domestic cats.

i've lost the count of how many birds has killed my dog :tape: once killed even a cat :o

dogs are different, it is worse and more dangerous to let dogs will wildlife. in part because of their size, they really should NEVER be allowed to kill wildlife. particularly not something as big as a cat. the size difference between a full grown cat and a newborn baby is negligible.

------

It's a double standard based on the fact that free-roaming dogs can and do kill people and livestock as well as wildlife, while free-roaming cats are considered more of a nuisance from a human standpoint despite the fact that they are the main carriers of toxoplasmosis (which recent research reveals is a more insidious disease than we imagined) and also vectors for various other parasites and diseases such as rabies.

And yes, free-roaming cats (pet and feral) have driven some rare species to extinction and threaten vulnerable populations of more common ones. Among the earliest examples are the dodos, those icons of extinction whose nests and young were easy pickings for the cats sailors and settlers introduced to their islands, but plenty of modern species are at risk, including birds, reptiles, and amphibians. Cats take food out of the mouths of native predators such as foxes, weasels, hawks, and owls and even threaten the existence of wild felines species by competition and interbreeding.

Unfortunately, with every step conservationists and wildlife lovers take to apply the same standards of responsibility for care to both dogs and cats, there's an outcry from a small but fanatical faction of cat "lovers." I put that in quotes because if they really loved cats they'd want them to be safe indoors or in outside enclosures, not on their own eating wildlife and garbage, getting killed by cars and dogs and tortured by sadistic people, and suffering from a huge list of diseases including Feline Immunodeficiency Virus and Feline Leukemia Virus. The average free-roaming cat lives less than one third as long as one that's not allowed outdoors unsupervised.
Source(s):
Cats Indoors!
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/

The Great Outdoors Is No Place For Cats
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/hazards.pdf

Toxoplasmosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis

Impacts of domestic cats on wildlife welfare and conservation
http://wildlife.wisc.edu/extension/catfly3.htm

Cats and Wildlife: A Conservation Dilemma
http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/zoology/members/yom-tov/inbal/cats.pdf

Domestic Cat Predation on Birds and Other Wildlife
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/cats/materials/predation.pdf

The Impact of Cats on Galapagos
http://www.darwinfoundation.org/files/species/pdf/cats-en.pdf

The effect of feral cats on the population viability of black-vented shearwaters (Puffinus opisthomelas) on Natividad Island, Mexico
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=8621FE6EE6F22DFFE2FA613 17996F2E2.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=121993

Stephens Island Wren (driven to extinction by cats)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephens_Island_Wren
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Xenicus_lyalli.jpg/250px-Xenicus_lyalli.jpg


How the Macquarie Island Parakeet became extinct
http://www.newzealandecology.org/nzje/free_issues/NZJEcol2_42.pdf

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:09 PM
3 birds in 3 weeks? That's seriously not that bad. You know that a cat averagely ate 20 mice before bringing you one home? My cat brings 5 mice a day :tape:. With birds it's less but certainly 10 a day if they have prey enough:)

Dandy_Warhol
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:34 PM
3 birds in 3 weeks? That's seriously not that bad. You know that a cat averagely ate 20 mice before bringing you one home? My cat brings 5 mice a day :tape:. With birds it's less but certainly 10 a day if they have prey enough:)

:eek::eek::eek:

Barrie_Dude
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Cats kill birds. Thats what they do

drake3781
Apr 18th, 2009, 07:34 PM
My cat is dying to go out, and I don't want her killing things, so I've kept an eye on her whenever she does go out.

But here is my problem: she doesn't want to hunt. She wants to eat grass, then come into the kitchen and throw it up on the carpet. :rolleyes: After cleaning that up three times, I'm determined not to let her out any more. But I feel badly about it... she really wants to go out a little bit each afternoon.

Is there any way to avoid the grass eating/barfing thing? :o

FORZA SARITA
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Wow, birds killed your dog? :speakles:

nope:lol:

Just Do It
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:21 PM
What's wrong with cats killing birds ? I mean that is a completely normal thing, that is how food chain works :shrug:

Joana
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:05 PM
Unfortunately, with every step conservationists and wildlife lovers take to apply the same standards of responsibility for care to both dogs and cats, there's an outcry from a small but fanatical faction of cat "lovers." I put that in quotes because if they really loved cats they'd want them to be safe indoors or in outside enclosures, not on their own eating wildlife and garbage, getting killed by cars and dogs and tortured by sadistic people, and suffering from a huge list of diseases including Feline Immunodeficiency Virus and Feline Leukemia Virus. The average free-roaming cat lives less than one third as long as one that's not allowed outdoors unsupervised.


I adore my cat and that's exactly why I let him go out. If I keep him inside all day he becomes miserable and is desperate to go out. Half an hour outside each day = happy cat = happy me. And yes, he hunts birds and "other wildlife". I don't care.

Scotso
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:57 PM
countless endangered bird species were/are in that state because of domestic cats.

Can you list some articles that back up your extinction claims?


Is there any way to avoid the grass eating/barfing thing? :o

They eat grass to induce vomiting, usually when they have upset an stomach. If she's been doing this for a while you should take her to the vetvet.


I adore my cat and that's exactly why I let him go out. If I keep him inside all day he becomes miserable and is desperate to go out. Half an hour outside each day = happy cat = happy me. And yes, he hunts birds and "other wildlife". I don't care.

ITA.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:11 PM
:eek::eek::eek:

Last time they brought a bird and placed it at their eating area. And one a huge rat inside, try chasing that :rolls:

Apoleb
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:24 PM
:rolleyes: I don't understand the logic behind repressing an animal's basic instincts in order for it not to "kill things outside", especially if "animal rights" is the issue here.

It's a cat, and it needs to go outside. If you're too scared for the birds or any living thing outside, then I suggest not to raise/bring cats to your home.

LeonHart
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:32 PM
The old cat I use to have killed tons of birds. Most of them baby birds fresh out of the nests. There's not much you can do about nature. Once my cat even caught a mole :lol:

ImaVeggie
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:46 PM
:rolleyes: I don't understand the logic behind repressing an animal's basic instincts in order for it not to "kill things outside", especially if "animal rights" is the issue here.

It's a cat, and it needs to go outside. If you're too scared for the birds or any living thing outside, then I suggest not to raise/bring cats to your home.

Indoor cats live longer than cats who go outside. They don't face the possibility of getting hit by a car or attacks by other animals or people for that matter.

Here's just one article on the subject...

http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx

Joana
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Indoor cats live longer than cats who go outside. They don't face the possibility of getting hit by a car or attacks by other animals or people for that matter.

Here's just one article on the subject...

http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx

I'm aware of that and that's why I used to keep my cat inside. Perhaps some cats are happy living like that, mine clearly wasn't. He got very agitated, ate less than usual, always looked for a way to sneak out. Soon I realized it was plain torture and decided to let him out when he wants to. And he came back to normal at once. It's not a toy, it's a living creature that has its own needs. If something happens to him while he's outside I'll be extremely sad, but at least I'll know he didn't live a miserable life.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:31 PM
I adore my cat and that's exactly why I let him go out. If I keep him inside all day he becomes miserable and is desperate to go out. Half an hour outside each day = happy cat = happy me. And yes, he hunts birds and "other wildlife". I don't care.

yes supervising your cat outdoors, the horror; the indignity. :rolleyes:

of course you dont care, why would you care about your pet cat killing the last members of an endangered species, that would be so rational. cant have than can we. :rolleyes:

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:35 PM
:rolleyes: I don't understand the logic behind repressing an animal's basic instincts in order for it not to "kill things outside", especially if "animal rights" is the issue here.

It's a cat, and it needs to go outside. If you're too scared for the birds or any living thing outside, then I suggest not to raise/bring cats to your home.

i guess the idea of supervising and SPENDING TIME with your cat outside, is ask for too much care, much easier and better to let domestic cats kill entire species.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:35 PM
Indoor cats live longer than cats who go outside. They don't face the possibility of getting hit by a car or attacks by other animals or people for that matter.

Here's just one article on the subject...

http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx

Another good thing, If you let your cat outside during the first 2 years of their life they will develop their 'sixth sense', meaning during those years they develop higher skills and better instict/intuition/hearing. Cats who went through that, only 10% will ever die by a hit of a car.

I have had 5 cats, they are always outside and come in when they wish, my youngest cat is 4yo and my eldest is 15yo + my mother had 4 cats of + 15yo. None of our cats have died because of an accident, and we have one of the busiest roads in belgium not so far from us, we also have a high-speed train line.

A really matured cat (one that went outside enough) doesn't go near places with lots of traffic, cause they most likely run away because of the noise.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:37 PM
i guess the idea of supervising and SPENDING TIME with your cat outside, is ask for too much care, much easier and better to let domestic cats kill entire species.

Like which species would they kill? Cats only hunt small mice and birds, if the cats wouldn't do that, there would be overpopulation. Before you speak, do some LOGICAL research please.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:38 PM
yes supervising your cat outdoors, the horror; the indignity. :rolleyes:

of course you dont care, why would you care about your pet cat killing the last members of an endangered species, that would be so rational. cant have than can we. :rolleyes:

The only endangered species there are, are at least 3 times bigger than themselves, cats don't hunt species that are bigger than them :smash:.

young_gunner913
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:40 PM
i guess the idea of supervising and SPENDING TIME with your cat outside, is ask for too much care, much easier and better to let domestic cats kill entire species.

:spit: so a cat killing a couple birds makes the birds endangered species? you're so full of it.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:46 PM
Environmental effects
Trapped feral cat

Feral cats are thought to be a major predator of Hawaiian coastal and forest habitats, and are one species among many responsible for the decline of endemic forest bird species as well as seabirds like the Wedge-tailed Shearwater.[78] In one study of 56 cats' feces, the remains of 44 birds were found, 40 of which were endemic species.[79]

In the Southern Hemisphere there are many landmasses including Australia where cat species have never been native, and other placental mammalian predators were rare or absent. Native species there, for example, the Kakapo, tend to be more ecologically vulnerable and behaviorally "naive" to predation by feral cats. Feral cats have had serious effects on these wildlife species and have played a leading role in the endangerment and extinction of many of them. In Australia a large quantity of native birds, lizards and small marsupials are taken every year by feral cats, and feral cats have played a role in driving some small marsupial species to extinction. Some organizations in Australia are now going to effort of creating fenced islands of habitat for endangered species that are free of feral cats and foxes.

----------

by contrast, caring and responsible cat owners who actually CARE about their cats instead of being lazy and self-centered, have come up with many solutions.

one is the cat on the leash
Nothing appeals to a cat like the stimulating great outdoors, no matter how interesting and exciting the home environment. However, responsible human companions do not allow cats to run loose outdoors where dangers lurk everywhere. So how do you resolve this dilemma? You convince your cat (s) that a leash is the key to the wonders of the outside world.

walking a cat cat walks

Now you must remember leash training a cat will not be easy and may take a fair amount of time. Success depends on the personality of your feline companion. Training a cat to walk on a leash could take as little as a few weeks or stretch out, with your patience, over many months. Maintaining your patience, and strict avoidance of punishment or coercion, is paramount to success and happiness for all involved.

walking a cat cat walks

Kittens adapt more quickly to the walking concept than do older cats that are in complete control of their lives. BUT our feline masters can learn to associate the harness and leash with the pleasure of outdoor excursions.

walking a cat cat walks

Harness? Yes, you must use a cat harness with an upper ring for snapping on the leash. Select as simple and lightweight a harness as possible, but use one. Cats are adept at slipping backwards out of a snug collar when it is attached to a leash. Believe me, I speak from experience.

walking a cat cat walks

Every tiny step of progress towards the cat walking goal should be rewarded with praise and perhaps a food treat. Never, ever punish or scold your cat when they are resisting the leash. Cats do not respond well to negative reinforcement.



Your mutual learning experience begins indoors. Start by giving the cat a few days to become accustomed to the harness by leaving it on for about 15 minutes at a time. Then comes the leash. At first don’t try to walk the cat, just let them move about dragging it behind them.

pet writers

Keep a constant eye on your cat to prevent entanglement and any scary situations from arising. If the cat becomes irritable distract them with a favorite toy. Encourage your darling to walk toward you and give plenty of praise when they do. These daily lessons should be short and non-stressful.

pet writers

Now it’s time to pick up that leash. Keep the lead as slack as possible and walk around behind the cat wherever he/she wants to go. Don’t try to steer them, just follow along. After a few days of playing follow the leader it’s time to convince the cat to follow your lead.

pet writers

Put into action your best sweet talk to get the cat to follow you as you hold, not pull, on the leash. Let your cat wander from side to side but you set the general course. When they reach the end of the leash and feel resistance they’re either going to come to you or sit down and resist. Always be gentle and avoid pulling or jerking your cat. A cat loves a challenge and they usually win so don’t turn this into a battle. If it becomes a tug of war stop the lesson, pick up your baby, and tplay.

pet writers

After you’ve both somewhat mastered walking around the house, head for the porch. If your cat has never roamed outside they may be frightened at first by all of the stimuli rushing in. Sit with them as they take in all in. Eventually the day will arrive when their heart stops racing and they’re ready to explore. Go along with it. Before long you’ll be taking daily strolls together.

---
other solutions i have seen are cat in a cat stroller, cat safe fenced in areas, cat out on a leash (but no cat walk).

young_gunner913
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:52 PM
you're talking about feral cats, feral cats are ones born in the wild. the cat in question is a house cat owned by a human. in nature, aniamls kill other animals for food. that's hows it always been, thats how it will always be.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:59 PM
Wigglytuf you clearly don't know how the nature works, the bigger one always eats the smaller ones, but the smaller ones reproduce faster than the bigger ones, that way they keep eachother in balance. All birds that could be endangered don't live in places where humans are. That's a fact, I'm a WWF supporter but what you are saying is pure bullshit.

Apoleb
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:12 AM
Indoor cats live longer than cats who go outside. They don't face the possibility of getting hit by a car or attacks by other animals or people for that matter.

Here's just one article on the subject...

http://www.petplace.com/cats/the-great-debate-indoor-versus-outdoor-cats/page1.aspx

Yeah, but that doesn't address the point I'm making. They may live more, but they'd live a lot more miserably if they don't go outside, at least daily. Some of their basic instincts are being repressed (honed by millions of years of evolution), which is a form of cruelty. The point is that it's absurd to argue for animal rights by putting your cat indoor.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Like which species would they kill? Cats only hunt small mice and birds, if the cats wouldn't do that, there would be overpopulation. Before you speak, do some LOGICAL research please.

domestic cats, have lead the extintion of a MANY, MANY small birds, mammals and lizards. they are such a big problem that endangered animals have been relocated to islands that are free of cats in a last ditch effort to save them. also as i posted earlier, the
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Xenicus_lyalli.jpg/250px-Xenicus_lyalli.jpg
Stephens Island Wren was brought to extinction by domestic feral and "outdoor" cats.

further the book
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VFBBNW1EL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

is about animals that have become extinct after contact with humans, almost all of the small birds, mammals and lizards populations were destroyed by people's "outdoor" and feral cats. one man received the last known member of a species as a "gift" from his outdoor cat!

many, many, many books have been written about the cats killing endangered species and bringing small birds, mammals and reptiles to extinction. indeed the great Sir David Attenborough talks about it at length in the first episode of "Life Of Birds".

---
so this is a widely known fact, now you are ignorant of basic facts thats one thing, but to deny its reality is just plain wrong.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:21 AM
Wigglytuf you clearly don't know how the nature works, the bigger one always eats the smaller ones, but the smaller ones reproduce faster than the bigger ones, that way they keep eachother in balance. All birds that could be endangered don't live in places where humans are. That's a fact, I'm a WWF supporter but what you are saying is pure bullshit.

once again, you show how little you know. seriously read a book.

start with this one:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VFBBNW1EL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg :wavey:

Pasta-Na
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:21 AM
put a bell on the cat's neck.

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:23 AM
Sweetie I know enough about the subject, I don't need to read books, I understand Nature well enough. Plus those endangered birds only are available in 10% of the total world surface.

pierce85
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:26 AM
cats are horrible!!i hate you bloody felines!!

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:03 AM
put a bell on the cat's neck.

that is actually not a bad idea. great idea actually.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Sweetie I know enough about the subject, I don't need to read books, I understand Nature well enough. Plus those endangered birds only are available in 10% of the total world surface.

no clearly you dont. if you didnt know the danger outdoor cats pose to endangered small mammals, birds and reptiles than you dont know much at all. seriously educate yourself. read a book, watch some david attenborough, anything to get you out of that self imposed and dangerous (to endangered wildlife) ignorance. it is ignorance like yours that has put so much of this planets wildlife in danger and has lead to so many extinctions.

be part of the solution, not part of the problem

p.s. there is no clearly sign of ignorance and some say stupidity, than to refuse to acquire any further knowledge on a subject you claim to know and care about.

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:12 AM
no clearly you dont. if you didnt know the danger outdoor cats pose to endangered small mammals, birds and reptiles than you dont know much at all. seriously educate yourself. read a book, watch some david attenborough, anything to get you out of that self imposed and dangerous (to endangered wildlife) ignorance. it is ignorance like yours that has put so much of this planets wildlife in danger and has lead to so many extinctions.

be part of the solution, not part of the problem

Seriously are you smoking pot? :spit:.

I support animal causes, so how did I did I make species to extinct? :rolls:

If it was THAT dangerous governments would have taken action against it, or the WWF. I will forward your quotes to the WWF, they will probably have a good laugh with it. And I'm far better educated than you, your silliness proves me right ;-)

ImaVeggie
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:55 AM
Yeah, but that doesn't address the point I'm making. They may live more, but they'd live a lot more miserably if they don't go outside, at least daily. Some of their basic instincts are being repressed (honed by millions of years of evolution), which is a form of cruelty. The point is that it's absurd to argue for animal rights by putting your cat indoor.

"miserably"... what are the symptoms of this horrible existence that you have observed?

Apoleb
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:13 AM
"miserably"... what are the symptoms of this horrible existence that you have observed?

You already have examples in this thread. Plus, it really takes one a few neurons to realize what could happen to a living animal when you try to repress one of its fundamental instincts.

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:24 AM
"miserably"... what are the symptoms of this horrible existence that you have observed?

Cats die faster when held inside, I have never seen any cat grow 21 years old like mine when living always inside. Cats are very dependend on freedom, they are like us, moody and always fighting to be be free :)

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:25 AM
You already have examples in this thread. Plus, it really takes one a few neurons to realize what could happen to a living animal when you try to repress one of its fundamental instincts.

That's where it went wrong with both of them :lol:

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:25 AM
Seriously are you smoking pot? :spit:.

I support animal causes, so how did I did I make species to extinct? :rolls:

If it was THAT dangerous governments would have taken action against it, or the WWF. I will forward your quotes to the WWF, they will probably have a good laugh with it. And I'm far better educated than you, your silliness proves me right ;-)

actually they do, as stated earlier governments and wild life conservation organizations have spent thousands relocating endangered small birds, mammals and reptiles. most wildlife organizations and animal rights organizations strongly recommend that cats be kept indoors or are always full supervised when outdoors.
further in many areas it is illegal to let domestic cats "go out" at will.

you are PROFOUNDLY ignorant on all issues discussed hear regarding animal welfare, not surprising from someone who sees education as something to be avoided.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:29 AM
You already have examples in this thread. Plus, it really takes one a few neurons to realize what could happen to a living animal when you try to repress one of its fundamental instincts.

if thats what you believe why you keep a pet AT ALL? that doesnt even make sense. by that logic there should be no pets at all, indoor or not. :confused:

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:29 AM
actually they do, as stated earlier governments and wild life conservation organizations have spent thousands relocating endangered small birds, mammals and reptiles. most wildlife organizations and animal rights organizations strongly recommend that cats be kept indoors or are always full supervised when outdoors.
further in many areas it is illegal to let domestic cats "go out" at will.

you are PROFOUNDLY ignorant on all issues discussed hear regarding animal welfare, not surprising from someone who sees education as something to be avoided.

In Europe we don't have any problems with cats driving species extinct. We have strict rules, here we feed our cats, therefor they hunt less than cats that are neglected by owners, and those cats are the risk factor, but not the ones that have a home and constant food when arriving back at their place.

In Europe there isn't any case where a law will say you can't let your cat go out. Luckily there isn't, otherwise they'd need to lock up humans like you, endangering humanity and INTELLIGENCE.

Apoleb
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:31 AM
if thats what you believe why you keep a pet AT ALL? that doesnt even make sense. by that logic there should be no pets at all, indoor or not. :confused:

1) I don't have a pet. 2) I don't see how what I said infers one shouldn't keep a pet at all.

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:31 AM
if thats what you believe why you keep a pet AT ALL? that doesnt even make sense. by that logic there should be no pets at all, indoor or not. :confused:

Pet means companion not prisoner. Animals aren't meant to be tamed by humans as their enslaved toys. Humans don't tame humans right? At least not a habbitude.

Mother nature always balances everything, we don't need to interfere, because in the end, all extinct species are caused by our interferance, not because cats suddenly went on to eat the whole world :rolleyes:

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:38 AM
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=31506

Feral cats: Problems extend to wildlife species, ecologists say
Sep 1, 2002
By: Daniel R. Verdon
DVM NEWSMAGAZINE




Feral cat numbers now rival the entire human populations in both Texas and California. Ecologists and wildlife advocates say this burgeoning population is challenging wildlife. They want cats back indoors.
Nashville-About 70 million cats are estimated as feral or free-roaming in the United States, and it is putting pressure on wildlife species and resources to solve the problem.

The result: the fight is on, and it is squarely focused on how to solve this population boom which now rivals the numbers of "owned" cats.

Ecologists and wildlife advocates want domestic cats out of native environments, because of their destruction to other native wildlife including birds, rodents, small mammals, lizards and other creatures. With the popularity of trap-neuter-release programs increasing, like one administered by the California Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA), these groups are opposed to the program largely because cats are released back into the environment. In short, they want them out of parks and other habitats simply because of their impact on the area's ecosystem.

The argument goes: This is a man-made problem because these animals are not indigenous to the area; therefore, man has a responsibility to solve it.


Dr. Julie Levy
Dr. Julie Levy, DVM, dipl. ACVIM of the University of Florida's College of Veterinary Medicine, says, "Veterinarians are increasingly asked to participate in solving the cat and dog overpopulation problem, often by providing discounted health care for homeless animals for rescue groups or animals shelters," she says.

Veterinarians typically fall on the other side of the argument by endorsing trap-neuter-return (TNR) programs as a start to controlling this population glut. CVMA's feral cat program, sponsored by Maddie's Fund, was created to help reduce the population of these cats in the state.

While CVMA officials are touting its successes; critics are blasting the ethics of "re-abandoning" these animals.

Beginning in 1999, the program spayed and neutered about 20,000 feral cats each year. To date, a total of about 140,000 surgeries have been performed in the state. The program helped subsidize the costs to the surgeries for 1,100 practicing veterinarians.

The entire debate aired at the American Veterinary Medical Association's annual meeting here.

The issues surrounding feline abandonment are global in its impact. In public health circles there is a major concern about zoonotic disease spread, like rabies, toxoplasmosis, ringworm or bartonellosis while veterinary medicine is more closely focused on FeLV and FIV risks.

"The control of feral cats is rapidly becoming one of the most popular and controversial topics in animal control and welfare," Levy says.

She adds that small animal practitioners working with these unowned cats are developing a sort of "herd health" program in contrast to individual patient care. Levy also founded Operation Catnip in 1996, which is credited with sterilizing more than 14,000 cats at monthly clinics.

Ultimately, officials agree the problem could be better controlled if people stopped dumping litters of kittens in parks, or leaving unwanted cats to fend for themselves. But even if that societal ailment were cured today, which is obviously unlikely, what do you do with the millions of free-roaming cats all over the United States?

TNR programs were born and are increasingly popular.

Alley Cat Allies, which is a national resource organization for these programs, estimates that 2,000 groups and 6,000 people are doing TNR, Levy reports.

There's not much arguing about the extent of the feral cat problem in this country; the bickering is about how to solve the issue, and the devil's always in the details.

Not a solution What has been the impact of TNR programs like CVMA's feral cat altering program?

If you ask Dr. David Jessup, a senior wildlife veterinarian for the state of California and critic of the effort, TNR is not a viable long-term solution.


"As the public has grown more attached to companion animals and there has been recognition of the fact that animals feel pain and distress, the welfare of free-roaming cats becomes an issue," says Dr. Margaret R. Slater of Texas A&M University's College of Veterinary Medicine.
In fact, he believes these programs are just inviting litigation, especially considering endangered species laws, laws governing conservation lands and animal protection laws.

He says that the animals are being "re-abandoned" and under California penal code if an owner allows an animal to go without "proper care and attention is guilty of a misdemeanor". What if a feral cat is responsible for killing an endangered species and was recently neutered and released as part of a TNR program? "Cats are an aggressive, invasive, nonnative, subsidized predatory species whose presence results in loss of wildlife," he contends.

Jessup believes that officials need to shift emphasis toward prevention of abandonment, provision of homes and sanctuaries for abandoned cats and elimination of feral cat colonies on all wildlife lands.

He also says there is a real need for an inexpensive oral contraceptive for cats, as well as recognizing that re-abandonment of cats is generally not a humane, professional or legal way of handling this enormous problem.

He calls on veterinarians to support programs like "Cats Indoors," which help make feral cats adoptable; and support "closed" sanctuaries as an environmentally friendly alternative to feral cat colonies. Cats at these sanctuaries would be treated humanely, yet confined indoors.

He also says that officials need to recognize that the elimination of large and "open" feral cat colonies from wildlife lands may not be possible without euthanasia, given current technology.

TNR works Proponents of TNR programs counter they are a viable way to reduce feline populations.

Dr. Margaret Slater, DVM, Ph.D., at Texas A&M University's College of Veterinary Medicine, believes TNR reduces the numbers of animals.

"Only trap, neuter and return of feral cats has been shown to stabilize and decrease the numbers of cats; fewer cats means less predation."

Slater says that a partnership between an animal control agency and non-profit feral cat TNR program was started in Orange County, Fla. in 1995. She adds that in six years following introduction of the program, more than 7,000 feral cats were sterilized, the total number of cat surgeries exceeded the number of cats euthanized and the number of nuisance complaints decreased. "As a result, despite an increase in the human population of 25 percent, impounds remained stable and cat adoption rates slightly increased."

How acceptable is trapping and humanely euthanizing these animals simply because these animals are unadoptable? Is it hypocritical to the "no kill" movement of animal welfare? How would large scale euthanasias be covered by newspapers in the popular press? Slater is convinced it would result in very negative publicity. If enclosed cat colonies are created to house these animals, who is going to pay for the care?

The issues continue to pile up.

The human-animal bond is a powerful force. People feed and care for feral cat colonies in an attempt to help. It's a humane response that most people feel for the plight of these creatures; but ecologists say it accentuates the problem because it reduces attrition in the wild, and it doesn't make cats any less predacious.

Wild or not It's a hotly emotional topic.

Levy explains, "Debate about the true impact of feral cats on the environment, on feline health, and as a reservoir of zoonotic disease is ongoing, often emotional and fueled largely by a lack of sound scientific data on which to form credible conclusions."

Levy adds, "Of primary concern is the welfare of the cats themselves, and many believe that feral life is too fraught with risk and discomfort to be acceptable. Others believe the lives of feral cats should be judged no differently than those of other species existing in a 'wild' state."

Ecologists just want them inside.

Feral cats have been credited with exterminating one bird species from the face of the planet, and it poses the biggest risk for certain protected species especially on islands, reports David Duffy, Ph.D., a botany professor at the University of Hawaii.

Officials say reducing unwanted populations of free-roaming feral cats is a huge problem worldwide, and a first of a kind survey in Wisconsin has documented the problems it is posing to wildlife.

In Wisconsin alone, says Stanley A. Temple, Ph.D., of the Department of Wildlife Ecology of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1.4 million free-roaming and feral cats are believed in the state even accounting for attrition from cold winters. Surveys estimate that this population of cats has bagged 7.8 million birds. Roughly 20 percent of the documented cat kills were birds.

Temple says, "Why are we picking on cats?" He says that even though there are many, many ecological and societal trends that are impacting native wildlife species the "cat threat can be reduced by responsible human actions. There are solutions."

Temple explains, "Feral and free-roaming cats are exotic predators (in the ecological sense) that are not naturally a part of any North American ecosystem. They are not ecologically equivalent to any North American mammalian predator, and their impacts on prey species are distinctly different from those of wild predators."

Temple characterizes these cats as 'subsidized predators' in that they receive food, shelter and other benefits from their relationship with human beings, yet also hunt. "Their predation on native wildlife can have serious consequences for species already stressed by other sources of human-caused environmental degradation," he adds.

How to help Slater says that veterinarians can help the feral cat problem in many ways.

"Veterinarians are involved in the control of free-roaming cats as a part of practice and in many other ways. Even working to encourage responsible pet ownership is a huge help in the effort to decrease the numbers of homeless cats in the U.S.," she adds.

Client education and a talk on responsible pet ownership can go a long way to controlling feral cat problems.

"The two primary roles outside of regular private practice are as educators and as surgeon for neutering cats," Slater says.

"Education of the general public, government officials, shelter professionals and other animal welfare groups are all within the purview of veterinary practitioners."

She says that topics to discuss could include public health risks, vaccinations and infectious disease control, the importance of identification and neutering.

Other important concepts include:

* The human animal bond keeps cats in homes. Foster it.
* Don't underestimate the power of an initial kitten visit. Statistically, there is an increase in relinquishment of cats in the first two years of ownership and it became more pronounced for cats owned less than six months.
* Educate owners about normal cat behaviors, since it is a leading cause of relinquishment.
* Neuter more cats, sooner. "In one study, only 50 percent of relinquished cats were neutered while 77 percent of owned cats still in the home were neutered," she says.
* Identify cats by collar and tag, microchip or tattoo.
* Help to get homeless cats adopted.

Apoleb
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:40 AM
Pet means companion not prisoner. Animals aren't meant to be tamed by humans as their enslaved toys.

That's how I see it, if I do end up getting a pet. It's retarded (not to mention cruel) to bring a natural predator and keep it locked in inside most of the time, and at the same time expect yourself to be an "animals' friend" or something.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:40 AM
Pet means companion not prisoner. Animals aren't meant to be tamed by humans as their enslaved toys. Humans don't tame humans right? At least not a habbitude.

Mother nature always balances everything, we don't need to interfere, because in the end, all extinct species are caused by our interferance, not because cats suddenly went on to eat the whole world :rolleyes:

learn to read. it will help you to understand the issues.

young_gunner913
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:44 AM
learn to read. it will you understand the issues.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/FlamingoSpice/sticker.jpg

2009
Apr 19th, 2009, 03:10 AM
thanks for the replies everyone,

i guess i will just go with a better collar/bell.
i never realized lots of cats stay indoors? maybe i should just allocate her 1 hour of outside supervised time. she only actually comes in at night (not by her choice, but because the longer she's indoors, the bigger chance of her doing a boo-boo... and it has happened quite a few times since she was a kitten :S)

furthermore... is 1hr outside enough for a cat to have fun??

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:09 AM
thanks for the replies everyone,

i guess i will just go with a better collar/bell.
i never realized lots of cats stay indoors? maybe i should just allocate her 1 hour of outside supervised time. she only actually comes in at night (not by her choice, but because the longer she's indoors, the bigger chance of her doing a boo-boo... and it has happened quite a few times since she was a kitten :S)

furthermore... is 1hr outside enough for a cat to have fun??

a bell on her collar will certainly limit the number of animals she kills. :)

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:07 PM
a bell on her collar will certainly limit the number of animals she kills. :)

Not really, since cats eat smaller birds or mice more, cause they can't move fast. It's rarely that a cat gets a big bird because they fly faster than they react, unless it's a sick one.

That way cats are good, they mostly take the disabled ones and rarely the healthy ones.

Go to a biologist, he'll surely confirm this post.

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:12 PM
However these issues can be quickly solved.

1) Governments need to force pet owners to sterealise their pets, if they escape they can't reproduce (free or funded)

2) More actively catching wild cats

3) Gps+identity chip implant (some countries already deploy it)

4) Heavier punishments on being a bad pet owner (if you dump your dog in australia it cost you $15000 (AUD)), while in most countries you just get a warning.

5) Black list for bad pet owners.

If governments were a little bit more responsible and good-willing, these issues wouldn't have appeared.

Wigglytuff
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Not really, since cats eat smaller birds or mice more, cause they can't move fast. It's rarely that a cat gets a big bird because they fly faster than they react, unless it's a sick one.

That way cats are good, they mostly take the disabled ones and rarely the healthy ones.

Go to a biologist, he'll surely confirm this post.

a bell makes SOUND. it is about the sound, not the size. if a mouse/small bird hears the cat coming he can run away. :)

égalité
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Let it kill birds. :shrug: That's what cats do. :D

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:10 PM
a bell makes SOUND. it is about the sound, not the size. if a mouse/small bird hears the cat coming he can run away. :)

One of our cat wears a bell for 3 years now, she still brings tons of stuff home each night.

Barrie_Dude
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:12 PM
One of our cat wears a bell for 3 years now, she still brings tons of stuff home each night.
My cat (a calico named Tabitha) would bring home mice and snakes when I was living in Florida. It was her way of saying she liked me!

égalité
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:23 PM
My cat (a calico named Tabitha) would bring home mice and snakes when I was living in Florida. It was her way of saying she liked me!

It's true! My cat used to love showing off all the mice she killed. :hearts:

You should give your cat a pat on the head when she kills birds because she's just trying to impress you. :awww:

Barrie_Dude
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:41 PM
It's true! My cat used to love showing off all the mice she killed. :hearts:

You should give your cat a pat on the head when she kills birds because she's just trying to impress you. :awww:
True ;)

youizahoe
Apr 19th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Yes indead, I appreciate it, Just dead ones, please no alive mice in my house, I nearly went crazy last time they did that :rolls:

Optima
Apr 19th, 2009, 06:36 PM
Fucking hate cats.

Barrie_Dude
Apr 21st, 2009, 05:02 PM
Fucking hate cats.Poor Guy! :sad:

^bibi^
Apr 21st, 2009, 05:06 PM
It's true! My cat used to love showing off all the mice she killed. :hearts:

You should give your cat a pat on the head when she kills birds because she's just trying to impress you. :awww:

yay.. and you give her food, so the cat wants to give you food too :p:p

Barrie_Dude
Apr 21st, 2009, 05:14 PM
Fucking hate cats.
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13886596&postcount=2

Barrie_Dude
Apr 22nd, 2009, 02:19 PM
:haha:

lee station
Apr 22nd, 2009, 03:46 PM
^ well said. lol
cats hunt, it's natural n normal

Timariot
Apr 22nd, 2009, 08:03 PM
My cat is a tortoise-shell, 3 years old... never really seemed to kill birds until the last few months! She has killed 3 birds in the last 3 weeks, one was during the night, but the rest were during the day, so I can't exactly lock her up all day long.

You should let her out in our countryside...Lynxes will quickly make short work of stray cats...

partbrit
Apr 22nd, 2009, 11:04 PM
I want to know what the best way to prevent, or reduce this killing is.

That's a no-brainer. Keep your cat indoors. She will have a much healthier, longer life. If you need help learning how to have very happy indoor cats (and people), feel free to PM me.

Apoleb
Apr 22nd, 2009, 11:06 PM
That's a no-brainer. Keep your cat indoors. She will have a much healthier, longer life.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

youizahoe
Apr 22nd, 2009, 11:26 PM
You should let her out in our countryside...Lynxes will quickly make short work of stray cats...

Lynxes don't run after cats, guess you never watched NGC.

Barrie_Dude
Apr 23rd, 2009, 03:49 PM
Lynxes don't run after cats, guess you never watched NGC.
We had them down south and never heard of one taking down a cat

youizahoe
Apr 23rd, 2009, 03:50 PM
We had them down south and never heard of one taking down a cat

Yeah there's some weird chemistry between both, cats are smarter, lynxes are strong and dumb.

Barrie_Dude
Apr 23rd, 2009, 04:01 PM
Yeah there's some weird chemistry between both, cats are smarter, lynxes are strong and dumb.
Well, technically they are both cats!

Timariot
Apr 23rd, 2009, 05:32 PM
Up here, lynx are indeed known for killing stray cats - their numbers have increased in recent years, causing some bitter comments from rural cat-owners...

salima
Apr 24th, 2009, 09:10 AM
The lynx in Scandinavia takes cats if it can get them. One nneighbour had several, or more than several cats. The lynx looked upon them as easy catch snacks.
During the winter lynxs seems to go after bigger pray as rawdeer. The lynxs is a silent and skillfull hunter

partbrit
Apr 25th, 2009, 11:27 PM
Apoleb, cats who live outside have an average of 1/4 to 1/3 the lifespan of indoor cats. They get diseases, they get in fights with cats and other animals and are injured or killed, they are stolen, they are poisoned, they are hit by cars. If you do it right--give the cat the equivalent of outdoor needs--the cat does not even want to go outside. I have done this for decades, including with cats rescued from feral colonies. And it is also easy to do it in such a way that the humans are happy, too. Perhaps some humane education is in order?

Keadz
Apr 26th, 2009, 12:08 AM
My friends cat who they never let outside died by getting into the bin and eating a piece of string. He was 5 years old.

One of my other friends kept 2 cats in a large cage, one of them ran away when the let it out and the other one died at age 8 naturally.

My cat is something like 8 kg :lol: and is 13 years old, still going strong and seems to as healthy as he always has been.

He is big enough to scare away any cat that wants to mess with him. Clearly he is the leader of cats in my street :cool: I 'm so proud of him.:angel:

Letting them outside, for as long as the want seems like a better alternative for me.

2009
Apr 27th, 2009, 06:13 AM
That's a no-brainer. Keep your cat indoors. She will have a much healthier, longer life. If you need help learning how to have very happy indoor cats (and people), feel free to PM me.

thanks, but what does ur cat do for fun?
also... do they ever have any problems with the litter tray? my cat hasn't had any 'accidents' in a while but there have been some incidents on the carpet and bed :S