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View Full Version : Was Mary Pierce, at her best, the GOAT?


CoryAnnAvants#1
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:26 PM
I only mean this in terms of playing form, not actual results or rankings.

After stumbling upon a video of her playing Venus at the Athens Olympics, I'm convinced that nobody could beat Mary when she was playing at her very best. Even though it's obviously a highlights package, the shots she can hit with such power and accuracy are truly amazing. She's probably one of the only players, if not the only player, who could stand up to Venus or Serena in the power department.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEU1yYqq1Rk

LeRoy.
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:33 PM
Yes. Without a doubt. I have seen some footage of her destroying Seles and Graf (in 1994?) and when she was on there was nothing better.

GrafMariaPetraK
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:36 PM
NO :spit:

V's a star
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:39 PM
lmao at using that olympic match to show shes GOAT. Venus did nothing but hit errors and passive shots + wrist problems= disaster . But yes when she was on i think shes better then seles or graf

M2k
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:39 PM
Talent wise she's probably the best there ever was.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:40 PM
lmao at using that olympic match to show shes GOAT. Venus did nothing but hit errors and passive shots + wrist problems= disaster . But yes when she was on i think shes better then seles or graf

Those errors and passive shots must have been really good because wasn't Venus up a break in both sets?

V's a star
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:49 PM
Those errors and passive shots must have been really good because wasn't Venus up a break in both sets?

We both know Mary can go a little a-wall. And at that time Venus cud play well for a couple games here and there before hitting 50 errors.



But anyways Pristine i wud appreciate if u wud never reply to my posts i rely dont have anymore time to reply to even more mindless haters. Just dont talk to me please :wavey:

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:55 PM
:rolls:

:weirdo:

MH0861
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:09 AM
No, their Wimbledon 2005 match shows a lot, someone like Venus is still slightly better IMO.

vadin124
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:13 AM
i'd say yes, though Serena at her best IS pretty scary

i'd have to give the slight edge to Serena, but Mary is a VERY close second at their very best...she certainly beats Vee, though it pains me to admit!

duhcity
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:18 AM
We both know Mary can go a little a-wall. And at that time Venus cud play well for a couple games here and there before hitting 50 errors.



But anyways Pristine i wud appreciate if u wud never reply to my posts i rely dont have anymore time to reply to even more mindless haters. Just dont talk to me please :wavey:

As a Venus and Mary fan, theres no reason that Pierce couldn't be absolutely stellar even if Venus was not 100%. In tennis I find that being on form as long as possible is part of the game (something that sadly both WS and Pierce are not the GOATs at).

anyway, I like Pierce. She definitely could've done so much more

Lulu.
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:39 AM
She's certainly up there. :hearts:

kiwifan
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:51 AM
no, but she could put together some memorable points. :angel:

LightWarrior
Apr 18th, 2009, 12:52 AM
Yes she was. When she was on she could destroy anyone. But she lacked consistency and was injured a lot.

Kworb
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:07 AM
1. Hingis
2. Seles
3. Pierce

Matt01
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:14 AM
1. Hingis
2. Seles
3. Pierce


1. Pierce
2. Davenport
3. Seles

Serena is also somehere here.

mauresmofan
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:14 AM
I think even the most diehard fan of their fav would want to avoid Mary Pierce the most if they heard she was on form. Sadly it was rare that she produced such tennis but spectators in the crowd had more of a chance of beating her than her opponent when she was on. In Hilton Head was where she was ridiculously good all tournament destroying big names for the loss of a game here or there.

Mary Pierce - Hilton Head 2000 (clay)

R64 BYE
R32 d. LEON GARCIA, GALA 6-1 6-1
R16 d. SMASHNOVA, ANNA 6-1 6-2
QF d. DOKIC, JELENA 6-3 6-1
SF d. SELES, MONICA 6-1 6-1
F d. SANCHEZ-VICARIO, ARANTXA 6-1 6-0

Lost 12 games in 5 matches.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:14 AM
Just did research... Mary can trouble the BEST and beat them on ocassions.. but it seems that the top players that bad power and movement were all better than her. She could beat them as she HAS MAYBE THE BEST GROUNDSTROKES EVER, but usually the other player would track down her balls and send them back for winners


Mary vs Serena Serena leads 5-1
Mary vs Venus Venus Leads 7-3
Mary Vs Justine Justine leads 4-1
Mary Vs Davenport L.Davenport leads 8-4
Mary Vs Kim K.Clijsters leads 3-1
Mary vs Maria M.Sharapova leads 3-1

Sammm
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Did she have a GOAT serve? Groundstrokes, yes.

This is actually a question, because I can't remember.

Marionated
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:19 AM
Just did research... Mary can trouble the BEST and beat them on ocassions.. but it seems that the top players that bad power and movement were all better than her. She could beat them as she HAS MAYBE THE BEST GROUNDSTROKES EVER, but usually the other player would track down her balls and send them back for winners


Mary vs Serena Serena leads 5-1
Mary vs Venus Venus Leads 7-3
Mary Vs Justine Justine leads 4-1
Mary Vs Davenport L.Davenport leads 8-4
Mary Vs Kim K.Clijsters leads 3-1
Mary vs Maria M.Sharapova leads 3-1


That's because their average game is better than Pierce's average game.
At her best :drool:

Andy.
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:21 AM
Just did research... Mary can trouble the BEST and beat them on ocassions.. but it seems that the top players that bad power and movement were all better than her. She could beat them as she HAS MAYBE THE BEST GROUNDSTROKES EVER, but usually the other player would track down her balls and send them back for winners


Mary vs Serena Serena leads 5-1
Mary vs Venus Venus Leads 7-3
Mary Vs Justine Justine leads 4-1
Mary Vs Davenport L.Davenport leads 8-4
Mary Vs Kim K.Clijsters leads 3-1
Mary vs Maria M.Sharapova leads 3-1
A lot of those matches took place between 2001-2004 when Mary was unfit due to multiple injuries and a lot of time out from the game.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:21 AM
That's because their average game is better than Pierce's average game.
At her best :drool:

that's not true, it's because their movement was better. I watched matches when Mary was playing top form and could not win against Maria, Venus, Serena, Kim, or Justine because their movement was TOO GOOD!

I would say that Mary's average play is more solid than Venus, but Venus movement is way better and that is why gets her past often.

Pristine
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:22 AM
Peaks.

Serena
Pierce
Hingis
Seles
Davenport

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:27 AM
serena over pierce if both play peak tennis...no argument there...:shrug:

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:27 AM
Peaks would have to be broke down by surface..just fairly recent players obviously


Hardcourt
Serena
Seles
Davenport/Maria

Clay
Justine
Pierce
Serena


Grass
Venus
Serena
Seles
Davenport


Like Davenport, if Pierce had more speed she would be better than all of them in top form, but in top form you can count on serena/venus/maria/justine to get to winners and send them back for winners.

azinna
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:18 AM
Don't agree at all. If Pierce is on-form and you make it a hitting match, you're toast. Doesn't matter if your name is Martina, Steffi, Serena, Justine or Venus.

But if you make it a match about some pace, but also consistency and movement, then Pierce will start un-relaxing, try to do more with the ball and you will get the errors.

Exhibit A: check out the Graf win against an in-form Pierce later in the summer of '94 (Steffi just stopped running around her backhand and kept hitting slices). For Exhibit B, check out that 2005 quaterfinal match at Wimbledon against Venus.

Sally Struthers
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:21 AM
yes. Every 5 or 6 years for half a set or so, Mary is the GOAT! It's too bad it only happens every 5-6 years though :lol:

Someone bump up that hardest shot you've ever seen hit thread with the Mary shots on youtube.

Daniel K
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:26 AM
As someone said earlier I think the Wimbledon match with Venus summed it up. Venus and Serena have the edge because their serves, movement and mental strength can edge out Mary's wicked groundies.

AnomyBC
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:30 AM
I'm amazed that this is a serious debate. There are people who believe that at her best Pierce was better than Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Serena, etc at their best? Granted I haven't watched too many Pierce matches---and I think she lost all the ones that I did watch---so I'm not an expert on how she plays or anything, but just based on career stats the idea of this seems pretty ridiculous to me. Also, if this was true, it wouldn't really be something to celebrate, because it would mean that Pierce failed to live up to her potential as a player.

Steffica Greles
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:34 AM
lol

moby
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:35 AM
A contender for sure. The only thing that makes me hesitate is Serena's 2001 USO semifinal.

That match sends shivers down my spine.

Sammm
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:36 AM
I'm amazed that this is a serious debate. There are people who believe that at her best Pierce was better than Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Seles, Serena, etc at their best? Granted I haven't watched too many Pierce matches---and I think she lost all the ones that I did watch---so I'm not an expert on how she plays or anything, but just based on career stats the idea of this seems pretty ridiculous to me. Also, if this was true, it wouldn't really be something to celebrate, because it would mean that Pierce failed to live up to her potential as a player.

Pierce lost every match you ever saw of her? :lol: I know she had some lean years, but come on!

Golovinjured.
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:49 AM
1. Hingis
2. Seles
3. Pierce

Exactly how I rate it.

AnomyBC
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:53 AM
Pierce lost every match you ever saw of her? :lol: I know she had some lean years, but come on!

I've only seen like 3 of them. They were all in her later years.

Kart
Apr 18th, 2009, 03:00 AM
Actually I think there is something to what the thread starter says.

Pierce at her very best was frightening. That Hilton Head title form was breathtaking from what I saw. I think she was a much better player then than when she won the Australian open.

However, it was sporadic and really, there's a reason why most of the top players have winning records against her.

There are many players ahead of her to claim GOAT but she was capable of beating anyone.

Havok
Apr 18th, 2009, 03:57 AM
Nobody tops an in-form Pierce. The thing is, Pierce was rarely in-form and sustained it for very long. When she did, however, she was deadly. See Hilton Head 2000, and to a lesser extent, Australian Open 1995.

Ranking her against other greats in the game, and sadly Pierce falters as she was never able to be a consistent TOP player. In the end she had a wonderful career (underachieved, however), but when you put her career vs the likes of Graf, Seles, Serena, Venus, Hingis etc she is ranked way at the bottom. Everyone knows Pierce was never the epitome of consistency, but was one of if not THE scariest players to play against when on her game. Everything she hit is huge (serve, return, forehand, backhand) and also has a great net game and fell to boot!

choi15
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:09 AM
A contender for sure. The only thing that makes me hesitate is Serena's 2001 USO semifinal.

That match sends shivers down my spine.

Is this the one you're talking bout? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPO2HQ5Gg30 (watch in HQ for best quality)

Serena did play amazing there :hearts::hearts:

tennisvideos
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:40 AM
Yes she was for 10 minutes. :lol:

I once played a set and thought I was THE GOAT. :lol:

Miranda
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:41 AM
i beg to differ, GOAT means you have to display your unbeatable form on a frequent basis, not only in a few matches ;)

spencercarlos
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:54 AM
lmao at using that olympic match to show shes GOAT. Venus did nothing but hit errors and passive shots + wrist problems= disaster . But yes when she was on i think shes better then seles or graf
Wow you did a lot in a couple of words, make an excuse for Venus loss, then diss Graf and Seles, so in conclusion Venus > Seles/Pierce/Graf at their best.... delusion at its best :yeah:

Orbis
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:08 AM
1. Hingis
2. Seles
3. Pierce

I agree, after those highlights. :speakles:

fufuqifuqishahah
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:11 AM
At their extreme best on any certain point???


Serena
followed closely by Mary

LDVTennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:24 AM
Yes she was for 10 minutes. :lol:

I once played a set and thought I was THE GOAT. :lol:

Which is probably as long as she was a lesbian... So, I don't think that counts... ;)

Scotso
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:34 AM
1. Hingis
2. Seles
3. Pierce

At their best. Hingis wouldn't even be top 50 in history of players at their best.

For people that need convincing, watch Mary's wins over Serena (6-2 6-1 at Indian Wells 2000) and Seles (6-1 6-1 at Charleston in 2000 losing only 12 games in winning the tournament, including losing only one game to ASV in the finals). When she's on, it's over.

I miss you Mary! :sobbing:

croat123
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:49 AM
I think even the most diehard fan of their fav would want to avoid Mary Pierce the most if they heard she was on form. Sadly it was rare that she produced such tennis but spectators in the crowd had more of a chance of beating her than her opponent when she was on. In Hilton Head was where she was ridiculously good all tournament destroying big names for the loss of a game here or there.

Mary Pierce - Hilton Head 2000 (clay)

R64 BYE
R32 d. LEON GARCIA, GALA 6-1 6-1
R16 d. SMASHNOVA, ANNA 6-1 6-2
QF d. DOKIC, JELENA 6-3 6-1
SF d. SELES, MONICA 6-1 6-1
F d. SANCHEZ-VICARIO, ARANTXA 6-1 6-0

Lost 12 games in 5 matches.
I actually remember watching some of her matches on tv from this tournament. seles and asv tried hard to fight, but mary just destroyed them. maybe the most impressive tournament i've ever seen from a player

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:51 AM
I would never call Pierce a goat, she was a great player, but there are at least 20 players standing before her. The only thing Pierce was good at, was hitting very hard, all other aspects were not good enough.

Aryman3
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:01 AM
Simply - YES
Compared to all the other great players of the Modern epoch Pierce at her best was absolutely unstoppable
Even Seles was not so dominant

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:05 AM
Simply - YES
Compared to all the other great players of the Modern epoch Pierce at her best was absolutely unstoppable
Even Seles was not so dominant

That's because the stupid cows didn't make Pierce move. From the point they made her move all the time, she never did something big again. Make Pierce run from side to side and she has no weapons left.

Dave.
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:11 AM
That's because the stupid cows didn't make Pierce move. From the point they made her move all the time, she never did something big again. Make Pierce run from side to side and she has no weapons left.

Easier said than done.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Easier said than done.

Even when Mary Pierce played near her best when reaching FO en USO final, she got trashed by two players who moved her so frequently around the court. It's not hard to make someone run, just hit angles.

moby
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:15 AM
That's because the stupid cows didn't make Pierce move. From the point they made her move all the time, she never did something big again. Make Pierce run from side to side and she has no weapons left.You mean like that?
cMKfy2TrXZg

Peak Pierce's mishits turn to winners. And she also hits ridiculous shots like that one.

Dave.
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:18 AM
Even when Mary Pierce played near her best when reaching FO en USO final, she got trashed by two players who moved her so frequently around the court. It's not hard to make someone run, just hit angles.

..and at the USO, Mary thrashed Henin. And then she beat Clijsters at the YEC. Why didn't they "just hit angles" then? :shrug:


As I said, it's alot more complicated than it sounds to make plays when you can barely get your racquet on the ball.

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:32 AM
..and at the USO, Mary thrashed Henin. And then she beat Clijsters at the YEC. Why didn't they "just hit angles" then? :shrug:


As I said, it's alot more complicated than it sounds to make plays when you can barely get your racquet on the ball.

Clijsters USO & YEC was completely different, Clijsters wasn't really on top of her game during the YEC, that was quite obvious. Gotta bring up a better example.

Polikarpov
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:35 AM
She could be very devastating. Too bad that kind of form of hers only comes once in a blue moon.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:40 AM
At their best. Hingis wouldn't even be top 50 in history of players at their best.

For people that need convincing, watch Mary's wins over Serena (6-2 6-1 at Indian Wells 2000) and Seles (6-1 6-1 at Charleston in 2000 losing only 12 games in winning the tournament, including losing only one game to ASV in the finals). When she's on, it's over.

I miss you Mary! :sobbing:
That was the first and last time she ever even got a set off of Serena. Serena whipped her 6-1,6-1 the next time they met and beat her in straights every time after that.

MistyGrey
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:52 AM
While she was very inconsistent, At her best, Mary was THE best.. it didnt matter if her opponent was named Steffi,Monica,Serena or Martina...

cherboy
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:58 AM
When Mary Pierce war ON nobody could beet her!!!!
Her strokes were amazing and she attitute is much better then anyone else on the Tour ever was!!!:hearts::hearts::hearts::hearts::hearts::hea rts:

DimaDinosaur
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:37 AM
lmao at using that olympic match to show shes GOAT. Venus did nothing but hit errors and passive shots + wrist problems= disaster . But yes when she was on i think shes better then seles or graf


Venus was at 100%. Mary was just better. Get over it, darling.

Serenita
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:24 AM
Is this the one you're talking bout? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPO2HQ5Gg30 (watch in HQ for best quality)

Serena did play amazing there :hearts::hearts:
thnx for posting:drool:

Juanes
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:26 AM
i miss her on tour... i wish she could come back... if could Date-Krumm, why not Mary ...

mauresmofan
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Clijsters USO & YEC was completely different, Clijsters wasn't really on top of her game during the YEC, that was quite obvious. Gotta bring up a better example.

I think they're great examples - Clijsters was able to hit angles at US Open because Pierce wasn't playing her best whereas at the YEC only a couple of months later Mary was playing a lot lot better and just bulldozed Clijsters.

Matt01
Apr 18th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Venus was at 100%. Mary was just better. Get over it, darling.


:worship:

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:00 PM
I think they're great examples - Clijsters was able to hit angles at US Open because Pierce wasn't playing her best whereas at the YEC only a couple of months later Mary was playing a lot lot better and just bulldozed Clijsters.

Oh well. She bulldozed clijsters? She barely won that match, and Clijsters wasn't even 50%. And at the US Open Pierce was playing very well but Kim was 10 levels above her and always will be.

H2H

2003 S Clijsters 7-6 6-0
2004 F Clijsters 6-2 6-1
2005 F Clijsters 6-3 6-1
2005 R Pierce 6-1 4-6 7-6

Clearly shows Clijsters didn't strugle at any point with Pierce. It must hurt to be so illusional like you.

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:17 PM
pierce got 1 match off serena :shrug: i'd hardly say that shows she's better than her especially if you can't ever win again (even a set)....and in 2001 her game was nowhere near her peak....watching 2001 and 2002-03 is like watching two different players (the only thing which has remained a constant is her serve)...

so if you want to guage how they'd do...bring something of peak mary and pit it against the serena that showed up at us open 2002...the serena that could take almost any shot you threw at her, no matter how hard, and send it back at you for a winner from almost any position on court...peak mary can't do that to peak serena...

Beat
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:40 PM
when she was on there was nothing better.
so obviously she wasn't "on" very often, otherwise she wouldn't have won "only" two slams and 18 titles overall, would she?

GrafMariaPetraK
Apr 18th, 2009, 03:07 PM
there's only one(greatest)goat! http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/thingofme22/graf1_340v.jpg

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2009, 03:40 PM
there's only one(greatest)goat! http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/thingofme22/graf1_340v.jpg

Looking a bit too skinny for me here. Look at those legs..a bit too thin.

morbidangle
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:05 PM
lol @ Williams and Grafans getting insecure...
I am a huge Graf fan and believe she is the best ever... that being said, nothing beats peak Pierce... Like people have said before me... it doesnt matter who u are, if u ran into peak Pierce, u got bitchslapped.. There is no point in digging up head to head records and career numbers... Mary doesnt have great numbers to be mentioned along with the Grafs and the Navratilovas... But if we are comparing peaks, no one beats peak pierce...

Dave.
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:11 PM
Oh well. She bulldozed clijsters? She barely won that match, and Clijsters wasn't even 50%. And at the US Open Pierce was playing very well but Kim was 10 levels above her and always will be.

H2H

2003 S Clijsters 7-6 6-0
2004 F Clijsters 6-2 6-1
2005 F Clijsters 6-3 6-1
2005 R Pierce 6-1 4-6 7-6

Clearly shows Clijsters didn't strugle at any point with Pierce. It must hurt to be so illusional like you.

This thread is not about H2H or whether or not Clijsters struggled with Pierce. I thought it was already established that Pierce was very inconsistent and rarely showed up playing her lights out stuff, which is why she has a poor record against alot of the top players. Clijsters had won two tournaments since that USO, there was no reason for her to be "50%". Pierce was just better that YEC.

But that's a different matter. Again, what I was saying was, when Pierce (rarely) showed up with her best tennis, there was little ANY opponent could do.

pierce got 1 match off serena :shrug: i'd hardly say that shows she's better than her especially if you can't ever win again (even a set)....and in 2001 her game was nowhere near her peak....watching 2001 and 2002-03 is like watching two different players (the only thing which has remained a constant is her serve)...

so if you want to guage how they'd do...bring something of peak mary and pit it against the serena that showed up at us open 2002...the serena that could take almost any shot you threw at her, no matter how hard, and send it back at you for a winner from almost any position on court...peak mary can't do that to peak serena...

Nobody said she was better than Serena. :confused: Being better at your "peak" means nothing really, this thread is just for fun I guess. It's the level you normally produce almost every time, and Serena's is far better than Mary's for sure, hence the much more successful career.

You're right for most of 2001 compared to 2002, but the US Open 2001 was as good as anything she produced in 02-03 (as someone already mentioned, that semi vs Hingis :bolt:)

It's difficult for two players to play against each other playing their very best so we can't speculate how "Peak Pierce" would do against "Peak Serena". We can only look at their peak performances individually and who they beat.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:11 PM
That's because the stupid cows didn't make Pierce move. From the point they made her move all the time, she never did something big again. Make Pierce run from side to side and she has no weapons left.

*dead* but you are right.. FO Pierce level didn't magically drop 10 notches.. Justine did not allow her to play the one shot winner game. Justine was all over the court.

Same with USO.. Kim was not having one shot winners in that final.. she was all over the court.. again with not great movement nothing Pierce could do.

At Wimbledon when Venus beat her 6-0 7-6 her level didn't magically drop.. Venus was all over the court and not having it that day.

The head to head vs the greats is like that for a reason.. her movement made OTHERS BETTER THAN HER AT TENNIS.

You tell them to hit to each other Mary wins all day expect against Serena

Marionated
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:16 PM
A contender for sure. The only thing that makes me hesitate is Serena's 2001 USO semifinal.

That match sends shivers down my spine.

Hingis was serving 80oddmph first serves that day. Any top power player would of crushed her.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Hingis was serving 80oddmph first serves that day. Any top power player would of crushed her.

I think that's the match Serena served 100% first serves in one of the sets, and a high percentage the other set. When you add that to her punishing ground game.. that may be the best tennis ever.

Marionated
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:25 PM
I think that's the match Serena served 100% first serves in one of the sets, and a high percentage the other set. When you add that to her punishing ground game.. that may be the best tennis ever.

Yes. I think she did serve a really high percentage that day. Hingis did manage to get a few breaks though, but she couldn't hold her own weak serve.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Yes. I think she did serve a really high percentage that day. Hingis did manage to get a few breaks though, but she couldn't hold her own weak serve.

Hingis serve was alway a weak point in her game, but dont let that fool you. Hingis had the weapons and movement to make up for it. When on, she is right up there with the best of the game.

LDVTennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Looking a bit too skinny for me here. Look at those legs..a bit too thin.

Steffi had great legs. All muscle, no fat. Perfect proportions for tennis. Perfect proportions for any sport, really. Her proportions are very similar to Jackie Joyner-Kersee's.

She was 25 going on 26 in this picture. Wonder how she compares physically to Serena at that age? Oh wait, I think I know. :D

The Daviator
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:44 PM
No.

You cannot say that she's the GOAT because of two events she played in a 12 year career or whatever it was where she blew everyone away. Any player with a big game and who catches fire has the potential to produce runs like that, we've seen it from Venus, Serena, Davenport, Sharapova, etc. it's the kind of run someone like Ivanovic could have if she went crazy, that's how big her game is. Same goes for every top player with a big game.

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:55 PM
Steffi had great legs. All muscle, no fat. Perfect proportions for tennis. Perfect proportions for any sport, really. Her proportions are very similar to Jackie Joyner-Kersee's.

She was 25 going on 26 in this picture. Wonder how she compares physically to Serena at that age? Oh wait, I think I know. :D

It's no wonder so many young girls grow up with all these kind of eating disorders. They hear people say: Kate Moss has perfect measures, while the girl is as thin as a leaf...same goes for the Calista Flockharts of this world.

I said for me personally..I'm sure there 'll be some who don't agree with me. But I think a woman should've more meat on her bones.

Somewhere between Steffi and Serena, I guess.

madlove
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:56 PM
i miss her.

mauresmofan
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Did anyone see Mary when she won the Wimbledon mixed - her ball striking was ferocious she was hitting harder than any guy she faced and going forehand to forehand toe to toe with them from the back of the court no problem. That's what she could do and that's the point of this thread - at her best who could beat her? I think possibly Seles, Graf and Serena could give her a match but they wouldn't beat her at her best simply because the match would be taken out of their hands by her incredibly aggressive ball striking.

alfonsojose
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Yes

LDVTennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:00 PM
It's no wonder so many young girls grow up with all these kind of eating disorders. They hear people say: Kate Moss has perfect measures, while the girl is as thin as a leaf...same goes for the Calista Flockharts of this world.

I said for me personally..I'm sure there 'll be some who don't agree with me. But I think a woman should've more meat on her bones.

Somewhere between Steffi and Serena, I guess.

Steffi didn't have an eating disorder, neither did Kate Moss. That's their body type.

But, this thread is about Mary Pierce and her being the GOAT.

I have a question about that.

If beating Steffi 6-2/6-2 at the 1994 French Open means Mary is the GOAT, what does it mean when in 1995 it was Steffi who beat Mary by the same score (6/2/6-2) at the Paris indoors. Clearly, by the same logic that makes Mary the GOAT in 1994, Steffi is now the GOAT because of her more recent trouncing of Mary. After all, as Mary realized that day, when Steffi is on no one can beat her.

Now, if only Steffi had played at or near that level on a consistent basis before and after that victory over Mary, there would be no doubt about Steffi's being the greatest ever. Oh, wait, I think she did --- :lol::lol::lol:

AcesHigh
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:19 PM
No, of course not. You can't make that claim based on a few matches. I think peak Serena, Graf, and a few others are def ahead. Mary was scary good but I think her potential is overrated. With any toplevel big hitter they're going to be hard to defeat when they're on. Like others have said I think wimby 2005 is a good example of how someone with great court coverage and power off both wings could handle Pierce.

dreamgoddess099
Apr 18th, 2009, 07:32 PM
Did anyone see Mary when she won the Wimbledon mixed - her ball striking was ferocious she was hitting harder than any guy she faced and going forehand to forehand toe to toe with them from the back of the court no problem. That's what she could do and that's the point of this thread - at her best who could beat her? I think possibly Seles, Graf and Serena could give her a match but they wouldn't beat her at her best simply because the match would be taken out of their hands by her incredibly aggressive ball striking.

You're assuming that Mary would be allowed to be aggressive, not so if Serena has a killer return and service day. We've seen Serena had out beatdowns to big hitters like Lindsay, Maria, Seles, Pierce, ect. (many more times than Pierce has by the way), by hitting return winners off of their first serves and then using her own great serve to put them on the defensive from the start of the point.

thrust
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Absolutely not! Besides that, she rarely played her very best. Consistancy is necessary to be a great champion. Mary was, only occasionally, a great player.

Sally Struthers
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:11 PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the original post. :rolleyes:

No one is saying that Mary was the GOAT. But on any given shot or string of shots she could be.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 08:44 PM
I think some of you are missing the point of the original post. :rolleyes:

It doesn't say that they are standing in the same position.... at her best she will be beaten because of the lack of movement esp vs the players that will attack her serve.

That is like me saying peak sprem can beat peak Justine or Kim because she can hit the ball harder.. not so..

NicoMary
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:19 PM
Well, I would love to but no,

I mean she's been scary good sometimes, :eek:
she just can't be the goat because of the way she moove

But we all have to admit that she is one of the top 5 best female player ever.
Her matches against serena at indian wells, :eek:
Henin at the us open, :worship:
Graf at the french open, :worship:
Monica seles at hilton head, :worship:
Venus at the olympics...:worship:

Were just stunning.
But Venus, Serena, Steffi and Monica at her best are better than she is

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Steffi didn't have an eating disorder, neither did Kate Moss. That's their body type.

Steffi at least had some meat on her bones. But come on, even to you, Kate Moss couldn't be the ideal of what a woman should look like.

Andrew Laeddis
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:26 PM
No

tonybotz
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:32 PM
i can see how some of the young-bloods might scoff at this suggestion. but i have to say, having seen pierce play at her peak, she was just frightening. she would hit the ball so hard and clean and then be able to follow her shots in and finish off the point at net with an extremely deft volley. had she not taken creatine and had her body break down, she could have really had a great career at the top. she still was a joy to watch when she was "on". however, it takes more than talent to be the best. mary had that crazy daddy who was a huge detriment to her career progression. Still, an amazing talent, who when playing well could make the top ladies look bad out there.

Matt01
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:38 PM
That is like me saying peak sprem can beat peak Justine or Kim because she can hit the ball harder.. not so..


Comparing Sprem with Pierce is really ridiculous. :rolleyes:


Like others have said I think wimby 2005 is a good example of how someone with great court coverage and power off both wings could handle Pierce.


It is not a good example because Pierce didn't even play well in the first set, hence the bagel. In the second set when Pierce started to play well she made it extremely close with Venus on grass. Does Venus on grass ring a bell? A very dangerous combination.

On clay Pierce at her best rips Venus a new one.

hablo
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:42 PM
Steffi at least had some meat on her bones. But come on, even to you, Kate Moss couldn't be the ideal of what a woman should look like.

Kate Moss no longer looks like she used to; she's gained some weight thankfully. So that poster saying that's her body type is in denial. It was probably the drugs she was doing (in addition to starving herself) which helped her stay so skinny. :tape:

spencercarlos
Apr 18th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Really Steffi and Serena at their best are the GOAT. Serena the combination of power and athleticism (at her best of course) and Graf with pretty much the whole package in it at her best.

CoolDude7
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Comparing Sprem with Pierce is really ridiculous. :rolleyes:





It is not a good example because Pierce didn't even play well in the first set, hence the bagel. In the second set when Pierce started to play well she made it extremely close with Venus on grass. Does Venus on grass ring a bell? A very dangerous combination.

On clay Pierce at her best rips Venus a new one.


Head-to-Head 7-3 for Venus, I highly doubt Venus was scared of Mary on any surface. She struggles with counter-players, like Hingis and JJ.

They met on Clay Venus WON EVERYTIME quite easily.

HAMBURG CLAY (O) F V. WILLIAMS 6-0 6-3
ITALIAN OPEN CLAY (O) F V. WILLIAMS 6-4 6-2
FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) R32 V. WILLIAMS 6-3 6-1

TNT96
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:20 PM
One of my all time favorite matches at Roland Garros that I watched live was Pierce absolutely CRUSHING Graf at the 1994 French Open. I had never seen someone destroy Graf like that before. It was mind blowing. I really thought she would win the title but nerves must have got the best of her to lose to Sanchez Vicario the way she did. She was not the same player in the final that she was all tournament long. Wasn't her run to the final recorded as fewest games lost by a player on the way to the French Open final?

TNT96
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Steffi didn't have an eating disorder, neither did Kate Moss. That's their body type.

But, this thread is about Mary Pierce and her being the GOAT.

I have a question about that.

If beating Steffi 6-2/6-2 at the 1994 French Open means Mary is the GOAT, what does it mean when in 1995 it was Steffi who beat Mary by the same score (6/2/6-2) at the Paris indoors. Clearly, by the same logic that makes Mary the GOAT in 1994, Steffi is now the GOAT because of her more recent trouncing of Mary. After all, as Mary realized that day, when Steffi is on no one can beat her.

Now, if only Steffi had played at or near that level on a consistent basis before and after that victory over Mary, there would be no doubt about Steffi's being the greatest ever. Oh, wait, I think she did --- :lol::lol::lol:

Because of all of this Graf conversation, it is always seems to be forgotten who beat Graf more times than any other player on the WTA Tour, ever...............................GABRIELA SABATINI

LDVTennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Because of all of this Graf conversation, it is always seems to be forgotten who beat Graf more times than any other player on the WTA Tour, ever...............................GABRIELA SABATINI

Hold that thought. I think we have a match. And, this is not even eHarmony.com. SpencerCarlos, where are you? --- :D

bobbynorwich
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:11 PM
Really Steffi and Serena at their best are the GOAT. Serena the combination of power and athleticism (at her best of course) and Graf with pretty much the whole package in it at her best.

Navratilova is the GOAT with 167 career titles and Graf with a distant 107. Pierce is not even on the list of contenders.

OPEN ERA WTA TITLE LEADERS
Navratilova 167
Evert 154
Graf 107 Court 92

Cawley 68 King 67

Wade 55
Seles 53 Davenport 55
Hingis 43
Henin 41

V. Williams 41
Clijsters 34
C. Martinez 33
S. Williams 33
Austin 30

The Dawntreader
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:17 PM
Pierce doesn't have all the elements to be the GOAT. I mean sure, some of her performances over the years have been exceptional, but i've never thought of Pierce at her best as being totally unplayable. Her movement is still an issue even when she's striking the ball well, and against someone with power aided with athleticsm, she's still going to be severely tested.

Serena to me could inhabit this description the best. At her absolute outstanding best, she's quite simply indomitable. Graf is extremely close too.

LOL at Kworb saying Hingis is the ultimate GOAT. Don't show me that Oakland video either, it's getting old:lol:

spencercarlos
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:20 PM
Hold that thought. I think we have a match. And, this is not even eHarmony.com. SpencerCarlos, where are you? --- :D
Vamos Gaby :bounce:
After Graf reached the top of the game in 1987 no one on earth could beat her 5 times in a row except well... Gaby. :kiss: :p

Anyway its a joke to say that Pierce at her best is the GOAT, if she had this "amazing the game" to blew anyone off the court, why, tell me why she only mastered 6 grand slams semis her whole carreer and very few titles to her count. So she did not really peaked for the slams as much and she did not really peaked for the other events... so where was that unmatched game of hers?

The Dawntreader
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:24 PM
Vamos Gaby :bounce:
After Graf reached the top of the game in 1987 no one on earth could beat her 5 times in a row except well... Gaby. :kiss: :p

Anyway its a joke to say that Pierce at her best is the GOAT, if she had this "amazing the game" to blew anyone off the court, why, tell me why she only mastered 6 grand slams semis her whole carreer and very few titles to her count. So she did not really peaked for the slams as much and she did not really peaked for the other events... so where was that unmatched game of hers?

That's quite an achievment really. Testament to how great an athlete Sabatini was that she could match Graf wiith regularity. That USO win of hers was impressive tennis. Out-played Steffi.

Nicolás89
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:27 PM
At their best. Hingis wouldn't even be top 50 in history of players at their best.

:weirdo:

Dodoboy.
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:31 PM
No.

You cannot say that she's the GOAT because of two events she played in a 12 year career or whatever it was where she blew everyone away. Any player with a big game and who catches fire has the potential to produce runs like that, we've seen it from Venus, Serena, Davenport, Sharapova, etc. it's the kind of run someone like Ivanovic could have if she went crazy, that's how big her game is. Same goes for every top player with a big game.
:worship:

That list goes ON and ON! Tbh!

Hell add Li Na in there!

Marionated
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4uw76h6ZWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEU1yYqq1Rk

:eek:

Lulu.
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4uw76h6ZWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEU1yYqq1Rk

:eek:

God I miss her. :bowdown:

Comeback Mary!

sammy01
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:36 PM
pierce isn't the GOAT or even close, what pierce was was one of the greatest single match players ever. on her day she could wipe the floor with anybody. she was also one of the greatest shot makers womens tennis has ever/will ever see. youtube has an array of 1 rally or 1 shot winners from pierce that leave the mouth open. with pierce you got incredible highs that were even sweeter given the horrible lows shes had in her career due to various things.

she was never consistent, she was very troubled off court, she had a lot of injuries, but no one wanted to ever play pierce because you just never knew if that day she would have one of her 'golden' days when she was untouchable.

my favourite pierce match was against danillidou at wimbledon, leni is a very good grass court player with a lot of big scalps on the surface. in the 2nd round of wimbledon 2003 she played mary in round 2, pierce was ranked in the 80's and not in great shape, but that day pierce was just amazing, i can remember pam saying 'yeah smile mary cus you've got it all working today' and there was no shot mary couldn't hit. in 16 games mary hit 32 winners to 5 ue's, it was the sort of tennis you can only but praise and admire.

she may not have as many slams/titles as her talent deserved, but everyone who has watched tennis over the past 15 years has a match in mind where mary was just unplayable and it was a joy to see. so i'll remember mary not as a GOAT but as the player who could put in performances that will stick in the mind for years to come.

Kipling
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:46 PM
Well, you might not find her attractive but calling her a goat is a little extreme, no?

bobbynorwich
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:51 PM
Well, you might not find her attractive but calling her a goat is a little extreme, no?

GOAT = Greatest of All Time

Btw, goats are pretty animals though. :)

sammy01
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:55 PM
of topic randomness but at our tennis club we had a goat to eat the grass behind the hardcourts, damn that goat would eat anything, it ate a pair of socks once, damn cant remember the name of the goat!!!!!!!!!!

Dodoboy.
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:59 PM
:rolls::scared:

bobbynorwich
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:02 AM
of topic randomness but at our tennis club we had a goat to eat the grass behind the hardcourts, damn that goat would eat anything, it ate a pair of socks once, damn cant remember the name of the goat!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure it was Mary.

sammy01
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:03 AM
betsy, the goat was called betsy, we were so dumb we tied it up with rope and it chewed through it and escaped. when we got it back it we built it a hut. lmao i cant believe how random it seems now but seemed totaly plausable at the time that instead of mowing we had a goat lol.

Matt01
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:21 AM
Head-to-Head 7-3 for Venus, I highly doubt Venus was scared of Mary on any surface. She struggles with counter-players, like Hingis and JJ.

They met on Clay Venus WON EVERYTIME quite easily.

HAMBURG CLAY (O) F V. WILLIAMS 6-0 6-3
ITALIAN OPEN CLAY (O) F V. WILLIAMS 6-4 6-2
FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) R32 V. WILLIAMS 6-3 6-1


Obviously Pierce was at her best in these matches.

Matt01
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:27 AM
Vamos Gaby :bounce:
After Graf reached the top of the game in 1987 no one on earth could beat her 5 times in a row except well... Gaby. :kiss: :p

Anyway its a joke to say that Pierce at her best is the GOAT, if she had this "amazing the game" to blew anyone off the court, why, tell me why she only mastered 6 grand slams semis her whole carreer and very few titles to her count. So she did not really peaked for the slams as much and she did not really peaked for the other events... so where was that unmatched game of hers?


You're just jealous that Mary has won twice as many Slam titles as Gaby :p

;)

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Obviously Pierce was at her best in these matches.

It would be more believeable to say Venus wasn't at her best when Mary beat her only 3 times out of the 10 times. To turn it around and say Mary wasn't at her best when she lost 7 times is delusional at best.

Same thing regarding when she played Serena , Justine, KIM, and the other top players...

You saying Mary is GOAT is way more delusional than me suggesting that your statement has no logic and is like saying Sprem could beat Justine and kim because she can hit harder..

LightWarrior
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:44 AM
She was probably one of the best to know how to hit the ball powerfully when well placed. However her footwork was terrible, she always looked stiff. When her game was not it wasn't a problem, she could hit a winner after a couple of shots. I never found her game very attractive because of the "stiffness". And don't get me started on the time she took between points, especially before serving.

sammy01
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:50 AM
She was probably one of the best to know how to hit the ball powerfully when well placed. However her footwork was terrible, she always looked stiff. When her game was not it wasn't a problem, she could hit a winner after a couple of shots. I never found her game very attractive because of the "stiffness". And don't get me started on the time she took between points, especially before serving.

her footwork was very good, she was slow yes, but her movement around short balls ect was very good. her closed stance backhand was a thing of beauty, great knee bend, solid base.

i can see why the time between points would annoy though, but it never bothered me.

Matt01
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:55 AM
It would be more believeable to say Venus wasn't at her best when Mary beat her only 3 times out of the 10 times. To turn it around and say Mary wasn't at her best when she lost 7 times is delusional at best.


We're talking about Mary at her best and not about Venus at her best (which is not that good anyway).

Next!

bobbynorwich
Apr 19th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Again, numbers don't lie, the GOAT is Navry.

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:18 AM
We're talking about Mary at her best and not about Venus at her best (which is not that good anyway).

Next!

Venus leads 7-3 try again

Matt01
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:21 AM
Venus leads 7-3 try again


:weirdo:

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:25 AM
:weirdo:

*dead* you obviously don't have anything worth while to add. Thanks for entertaining me

Matt01
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:29 AM
No, I don't have anything to add for people who are wasting my time because they are completely missing the point of this thread and are only putting out crap.

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:35 AM
No, I don't have anything to add for people who are wasting my time because they are completely missing the point of this thread and are only putting out crap.

I am waiting for you to prove how Mary is the GOAT at her peak... better than Serena, Martina Nav, forget them how is she better than Justine , Venus, or better yet how even Maria?

bobbynorwich
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:55 AM
The designation of "Greatest of All Time" implies a rather consistent and long career. Many extraordinarily talented players have had a few good years, but couldn't --- for whatever reason --- consistently prevail over many years against most other players. However, there are many exceptional players who have done just that --- such as Navratilova (167 career titles), Evert (154), and Graf (107). Pierce had only 20 career titles, she doesn't belong in the GOAT conversation.

LightWarrior
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:58 AM
I find this thread a bit wicked and misleading. GOAT can't apply to someone who crushed Graf at the semi final of the FO then loses all of her abilities for the final against Sanchez. She choked after that a couple of times in GS finals (2005).

Andy.
Apr 19th, 2009, 01:59 AM
People read the title properly. Its not aksing if she is the greatest of all time its "asking at her best" ie one off matches or tournaments is she is best player

bobbynorwich
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:05 AM
Ok, the question is whether she had a few tournaments where she played more perfectly than any other player, ever?

:scratch:

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:05 AM
i like Mary, but can't conclude that she is the GOAT at her best. Sorry, but no.

LightWarrior
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:09 AM
People read the title properly. Its not aksing if she is the greatest of all time its "asking at her best" ie one off matches or tournaments is she is best player

I know but it's irrelevant. Any player can have her/his goat time for one tournament. GOAT implies consitency over a long period of time, ability to win consitently many GS titles.

Ciarán
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:24 AM
Nope.

FERLKE
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:30 AM
:haha::rolls:

Kipling
Apr 19th, 2009, 02:53 AM
GOAT = Greatest of All Time

Btw, goats are pretty animals though. :)


Hi. bobbynorwich, meet a joke. Joke, meet bobbynorwich....

Sund7101
Apr 19th, 2009, 03:43 AM
When Mary is on she is just amazing and is capable of dictating every point, painting the lines with precision. She could play some unbelievable matches, i.e. Graf 1994 French Open, 2000 Hilton Head, AO 1995, 2005..., but unfortunately injuries really controlled her career and she was unable to be consistent. No top player wants to play an on-form Pierce, GOAT it's hard to tell, if you throw the head game out than possibly yes.

1. Serena
2. Seles
3. Pierce

In the modern game as far as peaks go. Serena and Seles are just so tough mentally. I wish they could have played each other at their peaks, what ferocious hitting that would be!

SV_Fan
Apr 19th, 2009, 03:58 AM
there's only one(greatest)goat! http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/thingofme22/graf1_340v.jpg

Please.......... Peak Rena, Peak Vee, Peak Seles, Peak Mary, and Peak Davenport all could blow Graf off the court. Graf could not hit nearly as hard as them nor was the serve in there league. pff.......

SV_Fan
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:03 AM
It is not a good example because Pierce didn't even play well in the first set, hence the bagel. In the second set when Pierce started to play well she made it extremely close with Venus on grass. Does Venus on grass ring a bell? A very dangerous combination.

On clay Pierce at her best rips Venus a new one.

Is Venus at her peak too? Lets not forget Vee beat Mary 2 consecutive weeks to win 2 major CLAY court titles, In 1999 so she wasnt anywhere near her peak. So thats not saying much.

CrossCourt~Rally
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:05 AM
Mary was defo near the top of the Goats :p. But Monica would have been the "GOAT" of them all if that german guy wasn't hired to take her out :sad:.

CJ07
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:10 AM
Part of being GOAT is consistency, which Pierce simply does not have. So a resounding no.

When you hit the ball as flat as she does, when it goes in its great, sure, but whats most important is how many times it goes out. Otherwise, Mirjana Lucic would have been #1 for the last decade.

Drake1980
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:14 AM
No.

LightWarrior
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:15 AM
Andrea Temesvari was a goat too for just a few tournaments in 1984.

Scotso
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:19 AM
Part of being GOAT is consistency, which Pierce simply does not have. So a resounding no.

Thus why the title says "at her best."

LightWarrior
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:26 AM
At her best, Novotna was a goat on grass. See how stupid this thread is ?

CoolDude7
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:27 AM
Andrea Temesvari was a goat too for just a few tournaments in 1984.

and lindsay is GOAT for her red hot summer runs...

Scotso
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:30 AM
At her best, Novotna was a goat on grass. See how stupid this thread is ?

Do you see how stupid it is to say that Novotna at her best is GOAT on grass? Ever heard of Martina Navratilova?

Scotso
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:35 AM
You mean like that?
cMKfy2TrXZg

Peak Pierce's mishits turn to winners. And she also hits ridiculous shots like that one.

:yeah:

azinna
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:38 AM
Did anyone see Mary when she won the Wimbledon mixed - her ball striking was ferocious she was hitting harder than any guy she faced and going forehand to forehand toe to toe with them from the back of the court no problem....

Yes, but if she was facing that same guy with an entire singles' court to cover, things may have worked quite differently. Which is part of the point several people are making about Peak Mary versus Peak Serena and Peak Venus. Meanwhile, Graf realized that the best antidote to an in-form Pierce was to have her slice bite more wickedly into the court. Let Pierce try to hit winner after winner off that ball (the only player that could was Lindsay).

By the way, the use of "GOAT" is throwing several people off. OP could've simply asked whether Peak Mary was better than any other player's peak.

Scotso
Apr 19th, 2009, 04:53 AM
That's because the stupid cows didn't make Pierce move. From the point they made her move all the time, she never did something big again. Make Pierce run from side to side and she has no weapons left.

Even when Mary Pierce played near her best when reaching FO en USO final, she got trashed by two players who moved her so frequently around the court. It's not hard to make someone run, just hit angles.

Why don't you go coach her, I'm sure she'd benefit from your knowledge.

Especially your 120+ mph serve :tape: Pretending to have played futures events certainly makes you an expert!


That was the first and last time she ever even got a set off of Serena. Serena whipped her 6-1,6-1 the next time they met and beat her in straights every time after that.

Your point being...?

Whitehead's Boy
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:02 AM
The "at her best"/"peak" discussions are a waste of time. Talking about a player being at her best/peak is too vague, too abstract to have a meaningful discussion. You know, my grand-mother 5 years ago hit an impossible shot, I guess during that period of time of 10 seconds, she was the greatest of all time?

So Pierce in her 10+ years career, there has been a couple of moments (like Hilton Head, or Roland-Garros 94) she played like the GOAT. Okay, but who cares? Lucic played like a GOAT too.

Would Pierce blast winners if she would play against "peak" Serena (whatever is meant by "peak")? Obviously we have to keep in mind the context of when was Pierce dominant. That's one thing to blast winners against Aranxta Sanchez, that's another to do so against peak Serena/Venus/Seles/Graf/Sharapova/etc.

LDVTennis
Apr 19th, 2009, 05:35 AM
The "at her best"/"peak" discussions are a waste of time. Talking about a player being at her best/peak is too vague, too abstract to have a meaningful discussion. You know, my grand-mother 5 years ago hit an impossible shot, I guess during that period of time of 10 seconds, she was the greatest of all time?

That settles it. Move over Mary. The grandmother is the GOAT... :haha::haha::haha:

bobbynorwich
Apr 19th, 2009, 06:21 AM
By the way, the use of "GOAT" is throwing several people off. OP could've simply asked whether Peak Mary was better than any other player's peak.

Yes, "Peak Mary" would have been a more descriptive term in the original post. Stating it as a debate about the GOAT gets everybody riled up ('gets their goat').

But really, who cares which player had the best short streak of incredible play? So many players have shown awesome tennis in short bursts.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 19th, 2009, 06:45 AM
...Was Mary Pierce, at her best, the GOAT?
I only mean this in terms of playing form, not actual results or rankings.


No.