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Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 02:20 AM
has only defeated one Top 10 player on clay.

rank 7 Mauresmo d. Williams 6:7(6) 6:0 3:0 ret. [2003 Warsaw]
rank 6 Myskina d. Williams 6:3 6:4 [2004 Roland Garros]
rank 1 Davenport d. Williams 1:6 6:3 6:4 [2005 Amelia Island]
rank 10 Kuznetsova d. Williams 6:4 6:2 [2006 Warsaw]
rank 9 Jankovic d. Williams 3:6 6:3 7:6(5) [2007 Charleston]
rank 5 Kuznetsova d. Williams 3:6 6:3 6:4 [2007 Warsaw]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 6:4 4:6 6:1[2007 Roland Garros]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 5:7 6:2 6:3 [2008 Rome]

rank 12 Williams d. Schnyder 7:6(2) 3:6 6:1 [2006 Rome]
rank 13 Williams d. Schnyder 4:6 6:3 6:2 [2006 Roland Garros]

She's 2/10 her only two wins coming against the same person, Schnyder, who is known all over the tennis world for being Venus' lap dog. While Venus did have some good clay results in 2000-2001, she was aided on clay due to the aura and sheer fear of her it helps that these years are widely considered to be her peak years.

Oh, her 2004 clay court run?

Charleston.
92 REEVES 4-6 6-4 6-3
85 MIKAELIAN 6-4 6-1
11 ZVONAREVA 6-3 6-4
53 KOSTANIC, JELENA 6-4 6-1
24 MARTINEZ 2-6 6-2 6-1

Lost a set to an American nobody.
Kostanic was in the SFs of a Tier I, shows how weak it was that year.
Way past her peak Martinez in the final, didn't Martinez retire that next year?
Not one Top 10 player faced. This draw is more Tier II than Tier I.

Warsaw.
23 ZULUAGA, FABIOLA COL 4-6 6-2 6-0
24 MALEEVA, MAGDALENA BUL 6-1 6-0
11 ZVONAREVA, VERA RUS 6-3 6-2
14 KUZNETSOVA, SVETLANA RUS 6-1 6-4

Still didn't face one Top 10 player. At least this actually WAS a Tier II.

Berlin.
26 DANIILIDOU 7-5 6-3
21 SMASHNOVA6-3 6-1
17 SUAREZ 7-6(5) 5-7 6-2
29 SPREM 2-6 6-3 6-4
3 MAURESMO, AMELIE FRA W/O

Not one even one Top 15 player faced, got the final and defaulted when it was time to face real competition.

Venus for Roland Garros. :hearts:

RenaSlam.
Apr 17th, 2009, 02:21 AM
Since 2002...

Venus Williams has won Wimbledon 3x.

:worship:

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 02:44 AM
Since 2002...

Venus Williams has won Wimbledon 3x.

:worship:

:hearts:

mr_burns
Apr 17th, 2009, 02:52 AM
but it's true, clay isn't her surface
at least she gives it a try

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:04 AM
gimme some info here...who is mikaelian??????


what about 2006??? Rome and RG??

skanky~skanketta
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:05 AM
It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).

I hope she has a good showing at RG this year. If Kuzzy or Jankovic dont win it, I sure hope it's Venus.

maddogz48
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:05 AM
Keep trying Venus.

Hopefully Venus faces Jankovic in Rome. :)

hdfb
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:07 AM
I knew it! I never ever understood why people always said Venus' was underrated on clay and that she was a great claycourter.

Dave.
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:14 AM
gimme some info here...who is mikaelian??????


http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/3/global/photos/150x200/130632.jpg

Marie-Gayanay Mikaelian, former no.33 (the year before), winner of 1 singles title.

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/2/players/playerprofiles/Playerbio.asp?PlayerID=130632

Golovinjured.
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:28 AM
She's nowhere near as good on clay as she is on any other surface. Still, she's not terrible. There's the (lack of) form of Safina, Jankovic, Mauresmo and somewhat Ivanovic, and Sharapova and Serena still under an injury cloud. Add Zvonareva and Azarenka to the mix and this tournament is wide open. Venus could surprise at Roland Garros. She'll need a good draw though, with no really capable clay courters (Suarez Navarro, Medina Garrigues, Mauresmo, Pennetta etc) in her quarter. If she can make the QF, anything is possible beyond there.

The thing I think she has going for her though, is that she hasn't had a 12 months leading up to the clay season as impressive as this since 2002, when she reached the final.

Dave.
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:36 AM
Rankings don't always reflect the quality of opposition, especially on a specialised surface like clay which is only in action 2/3 months a year.

Martinez, however much past her prime, was ALWAYS dangerous on clay. She had won the tourney twice before. Her game was perfect for the surface, alot more suited to clay than Venus is. The next year, Conchi pushed Henin all the way at RG, where Henin won the title.

We all know how Kuznetsova ended up that year with a USO trophy. She too has a fantastic game for clay and always did well in Warsaw.

Suarez made the RG semis later that claycourt season, and again, a more suitable claycourt game than Venus.

So no, she didn't beat a top 10 player there but Suarez & Kuznetsova soon ended up in the top 10 just months later.




In the women's game, surfaces are not nearly as significant as the men's. It's no secret that Venus' worst surface is clay and that she is very beatable on it. But if she makes her way to the SF's/F's of RG, there are not too many players who she will lose to.

I think you have to give everyone a chance at this year's RG. Venus is by no means a favourite, but with her record, always deserves a chance at it. She can win on clay if she keeps her error count low.

Malva
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:38 AM
It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).


A nice post (as usual), but I have a different explanation: Venus doesn't play Eastbourne or other as you call them 'warm up tournaments' on grass precisely because her goal is to win Wimbledon. If she did, she would face at least 10 matches in a row, with the most difficult ones at the very end. So this is a cool calculation, not not caring about say Eastbourne.

On the other hand, she has no such expectations on clay at Roland Garros. Thus she can afford playing a number of clay tournaments.

madlove
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:39 AM
clay isnt her surface but i think shes still a contender.

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:40 AM
thanks dave (never thought i'd say that :p)



but i don't think she's underrated...i think people perceive her in the right way when it comes to clay...i think her lack of technique especially on the fh (since anything high to that side) is usually her downfall on clay...its why she will get particularly more loses on the surface even when you think she should be winning...it's why imo, i think maria and venus both suck on clay, but despite their deficiencies i wouldn't be surprised if maria got one title before venus...even though i think of the two venus SHOULD be better...however maria doesn't seem to let that bother her, since she refuses to slide, refuses to give more margin for error and basically plays hardcourt tennis but gets through based on the fact that she believes she should be winning despite of it...

but that's my two cents :lol:

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:43 AM
Rankings don't always reflect the quality of opposition, especially on a specialised surface like clay which is only in action 2/3 months a year.

Martinez, however much past her prime, was ALWAYS dangerous on clay. She had won the tourney twice before. Her game was perfect for the surface, alot more suited to clay than Venus is. The next year, Conchi pushed Henin all the way at RG, where Henin won the title.

We all know how Kuznetsova ended up that year with a USO trophy. She too has a fantastic game for clay and always did well in Warsaw.

Suarez made the RG semis later that claycourt season, and again, a more suitable claycourt game than Venus.

So no, she didn't beat a top 10 player there but Suarez & Kuznetsova soon ended up in the top 10 just months later.




In the women's game, surfaces are not nearly as significant as the men's. It's no secret that Venus' worst surface is clay and that she is very beatable on it. But if she makes her way to the SF's/F's of RG, there are not too many players who she will lose to.

I think you have to give everyone a chance at this year's RG. Venus is by no means a favourite, but with her record, always deserves a chance at it. She can win on clay if she keeps her error count low.

That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:51 AM
That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.

:sobbing: plz don't say that...


it'd be interesting to see if AnnaK has any similar stats so that we can see a comparison between venus, serena, ana, jj, and other contenders...

skanky~skanketta
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:51 AM
That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.
What's with your Venus hate?

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 03:54 AM
If you criticize Venus constructively with logical facts, all of a sudden you hate her?

The numbers don't lie. Venus won and lost those matches on clay I'm just presenting facts. Pam Shriver says Venus won't win RG this year and it is such a crime like Venus hasn't passed the third round there in three years this year what's wrong with her? :rolleyes:

skanky~skanketta
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:07 AM
If you criticize Venus constructively with logical facts, all of a sudden you hate her?

The numbers don't lie. Venus won and lost those matches on clay I'm just presenting facts. Pam Shriver says Venus won't win RG this year and it is such a crime like Venus hasn't passed the third round there in three years this year what's wrong with her? :rolleyes:
If it's you who goes into all threads related to Venus and use "numbers" for your argument, then yes. You do hate her.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:08 AM
Be in denial. Only Venus can prove me wrong by her performances on red clay. Have faith in your favorite. :)

Will Vernus or Venus show up?

Dave.
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:10 AM
The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.

Actually it is the lower ranked players that are Venus' biggest worries. The Karatantcheva's, Lisicki's etc. Venus is more likely to lose early than go deep in Parism but you cannot guarantee that she will be upset early.

Venus doesn't face a top player till the later rounds, and who do you see beating Venus in a slam SF/Final? Of the current top 10, I would only give Serena and Ivanovic a definite chance. Possibly Jankovic or Dementieva. My point is, Venus has a huge mental edge over most others at that stage of a slam.


I don't think anyone is saying Venus is a top favourite (because she's not). If you say she has no chance of winning it though, you are underrating her.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:13 AM
Actually it is the lower ranked players that are Venus' biggest worries. The Karatantcheva's, Lisicki's etc. Venus is more likely to lose early than go deep in Parism but you cannot guarantee that she will be upset early.

Venus doesn't face a top player till the later rounds, and who do you see beating Venus in a slam SF/Final? Of the current top 10, I would only give Serena and Ivanovic a definite chance. Possibly Jankovic or Dementieva. My point is, Venus has a huge mental edge over most others at that stage of a slam.


I don't think anyone is saying Venus is a top favourite (because she's not). If you say she has no chance of winning it though, you are underrating her.

Venus can win Roland Garros, but the level SHE personally needs to win RG with her brand of tennis requires a level that Venus hasn't summoned outside of Wimbledon almost eons ago.

V's a star
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:13 AM
She beat Dementieva in 2005:p
Congrats new #1 hater:clap2:

Dave.
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:24 AM
Venus can win Roland Garros, but the level SHE personally needs to win RG with her brand of tennis requires a level that Venus hasn't summoned outside of Wimbledon almost eons ago.

That is actually where (as Golovinjured stated earlier) this year looks better for Venus. Since Wimbledon she has been producing her best stuff. 4/5 tournaments won accross 3 different surfaces. She almost beat the entire top 10 within two tournaments at the end of 08. She hasn't had those sort of numbers since before 2003.


If this was last year or before, I would probably agree that Venus really shouldn't be considered for RG. This year is different, she deserves more ofa chance. She is playing at a generally higher level than she normally does this time of year.

Golovinjured.
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:26 AM
Actually it is the lower ranked players that are Venus' biggest worries. The Karatantcheva's, Lisicki's etc. Venus is more likely to lose early than go deep in Parism but you cannot guarantee that she will be upset early.

Venus doesn't face a top player till the later rounds, and who do you see beating Venus in a slam SF/Final? Of the current top 10, I would only give Serena and Ivanovic a definite chance. Possibly Jankovic or Dementieva. My point is, Venus has a huge mental edge over most others at that stage of a slam.


I don't think anyone is saying Venus is a top favourite (because she's not). If you say she has no chance of winning it though, you are underrating her.

I think the same.

This year might be different for Venus, though. Her past 12 months have been far superior leading into the clay season than any other year past, since 2002. In 2002, she reached the final. I think if she can stop being such a hot mess in these clay lead ups, she'll do well, because she's a much better clay courter than her Roland Garros results indicate. Can't believe she's only passed the QF just once. :eek:

Golovinjured.
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:28 AM
That is actually where (as Golovinjured stated earlier) this year looks better for Venus. Since Wimbledon she has been producing her best stuff. 4/5 tournaments won accross 3 different surfaces. She almost beat the entire top 10 within two tournaments at the end of 08. She hasn't had those sort of numbers since before 2003.


If this was last year or before, I would probably agree that Venus really shouldn't be considered for RG. This year is different, she deserves more ofa chance. She is playing at a generally higher level than she normally does this time of year.

:worship:

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:32 AM
That is actually where (as Golovinjured stated earlier) this year looks better for Venus. Since Wimbledon she has been producing her best stuff. 4/5 tournaments won accross 3 different surfaces. She almost beat the entire top 10 within two tournaments at the end of 08. She hasn't had those sort of numbers since before 2003.


If this was last year or before, I would probably agree that Venus really shouldn't be considered for RG. This year is different, she deserves more ofa chance. She is playing at a generally higher level than she normally does this time of year.

scary thing is, the last time this happened she lost wimbledon :lol:

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:52 AM
That is actually where (as Golovinjured stated earlier) this year looks better for Venus. Since Wimbledon she has been producing her best stuff. 4/5 tournaments won accross 3 different surfaces. She almost beat the entire top 10 within two tournaments at the end of 08. She hasn't had those sort of numbers since before 2003.


If this was last year or before, I would probably agree that Venus really shouldn't be considered for RG. This year is different, she deserves more ofa chance. She is playing at a generally higher level than she normally does this time of year.

The real red clay season has yet to begin. She is scheduled for two red clay tournaments and then of course Paris. Lets see if this JESUS form you keep referring to continues. Like I said before, only Venus can prove me wrong.

Hope Vernus doesn't show up. :hearts:

Dave.
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:52 AM
I think the same.

This year might be different for Venus, though. Her past 12 months have been far superior leading into the clay season than any other year past, since 2002. In 2002, she reached the final. I think if she can stop being such a hot mess in these clay lead ups, she'll do well, because she's a much better clay courter than her Roland Garros results indicate. Can't believe she's only passed the QF just once. :eek:

Yeah considering the success she has had, her RG record is quite poor, and I won't be surprised if she does crash out in a 3R shock again. I just know that this past year, she has had less shocks and more titles in a long time, so the likelihood of her underperforming in Paris is lower.


scary thing is, the last time this happened she lost wimbledon :lol:

:lol: I was just gonna say, if Venus does have a good run in Paris, she might not do that well at Wimbledon. She won't quite have as much to prove there as she normally does.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 04:59 AM
Quite weird actually how that happens.

Also since 2005, she's only lost to Jankovic at Wimbledon. Who hasn't even seen a QF at SW19 and isn't even comfortable on the grass. But then again this is Venus where unpredictability IS PREDICTABLE.

With the way the seeds are looking thus far, Venus could be facing Kuznetsova, Petrova, Radwanska, or Wozniacki in as early as the fourth round. Those four are all tough matchups for her on clay. Then a potential Serena, Safina, Jankovic, Dementieva SF. She isn't the favorite in any of those except arguably against Dementieva. Her best bet is to really push hard to get into the top four before the draw comes out to avoid those 9-12 seeds all four of those could send her packing.

Roookie
Apr 17th, 2009, 05:07 AM
Since 2002...

Venus Williams has won Wimbledon 3x.

:worship:

LMAO :haha:. I love that this was the very first reply. But poor Venus first everybody its like "OMG! She's playing great, won Zurich, YEC...the favourite to win AO". And then loses to CSN and everybody "typical Venus, she's so inconsistent". Then she wins Dubai and Acapulco and same thing "she's the best player right now!!!"....and now this and back to diss Vee.

No shock here that she lost in clay, she'll do better in upcoming clay tournaments.

The Witch-king
Apr 17th, 2009, 08:26 AM
Aint that the truth Rookie. I remember similar threads to this last year about how she hadn't been to a tier 2 final since whenever etc etc as if that prevented her winning zurich, Doha or Dubai. Just because she hasn't beaten a top 10 player on clay in a while doesn't mean she won't.

Marshmallow
Apr 17th, 2009, 09:46 AM
I knew it! I never ever understood why people always said Venus' was underrated on clay and that she was a great claycourter.

It's in part because... and not many people know this... outside of RG, Justin Henin (best clay courter of generation arguably) and Venus Williams, have an equal number of clay court titles. 8 a piece. Venus was also beating the likes of ASV on Clay on her second year on the tour (second clay season not played much on it growing up).

There are some other little facts and stats, but the point is you can't say that about cows on ice. When Venus turns it on even on clay, she's formidabble to say the least.

Dodoboy.
Apr 17th, 2009, 11:32 AM
thanks dave (never thought i'd say that :p)



but i don't think she's underrated...i think people perceive her in the right way when it comes to clay...i think her lack of technique especially on the fh (since anything high to that side) is usually her downfall on clay...its why she will get particularly more loses on the surface even when you think she should be winning...it's why imo, i think maria and venus both suck on clay, but despite their deficiencies i wouldn't be surprised if maria got one title before venus...even though i think of the two venus SHOULD be better...however maria doesn't seem to let that bother her, since she refuses to slide, refuses to give more margin for error and basically plays hardcourt tennis but gets through based on the fact that she believes she should be winning despite of it...

but that's my two cents :lol:

I totally agree here, we just have to look at the Acupulco final - Venus played hardcourt tennis throughout and devastated a good claycourt player. She needs to adapt this attitude in all her matches. Maria did this so well last year in Amelia Island and Charleston until Serena.

I am so happy she went to Mexico - she practiced the R1, R2 matches over and over again and really toughed it out.

volta
Apr 17th, 2009, 01:07 PM
I totally agree here, we just have to look at the Acupulco final - Venus played hardcourt tennis throughout and devastated a good claycourt player. She needs to adapt this attitude in all her matches. Maria did this so well last year in Amelia Island and Charleston until Serena.

I am so happy she went to Mexico - she practiced the R1, R2 matches over and over again and really toughed it out.

Agree with both of u

her movement yesterday was :o specially when she tried to slide on the backhand side :(

just play HC game on clay, stay true to her game and don't over think. on a side note , i'm glad Richard was there with her and saw it live , he sure didn't look happy :lol:

StephenUK
Apr 17th, 2009, 06:14 PM
has only defeated one Top 10 player on clay.

rank 7 Mauresmo d. Williams 6:7(6) 6:0 3:0 ret. [2003 Warsaw]
rank 6 Myskina d. Williams 6:3 6:4 [2004 Roland Garros]
rank 1 Davenport d. Williams 1:6 6:3 6:4 [2005 Amelia Island]
rank 10 Kuznetsova d. Williams 6:4 6:2 [2006 Warsaw]
rank 9 Jankovic d. Williams 3:6 6:3 7:6(5) [2007 Charleston]
rank 5 Kuznetsova d. Williams 3:6 6:3 6:4 [2007 Warsaw]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 6:4 4:6 6:1[2007 Roland Garros]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 5:7 6:2 6:3 [2008 Rome]

rank 12 Williams d. Schnyder 7:6(2) 3:6 6:1 [2006 Rome]
rank 13 Williams d. Schnyder 4:6 6:3 6:2 [2006 Roland Garros]

She's 2/10 her only two wins coming against the same person, Schnyder, who is known all over the tennis world for being Venus' lap dog. While Venus did have some good clay results in 2000-2001, she was aided on clay due to the aura and sheer fear of her it helps that these years are widely considered to be her peak years.

Oh, her 2004 clay court run?

Charleston.
92 REEVES 4-6 6-4 6-3
85 MIKAELIAN 6-4 6-1
11 ZVONAREVA 6-3 6-4
53 KOSTANIC, JELENA 6-4 6-1
24 MARTINEZ 2-6 6-2 6-1

Lost a set to an American nobody.
Kostanic was in the SFs of a Tier I, shows how weak it was that year.
Way past her peak Martinez in the final, didn't Martinez retire that next year?
Not one Top 10 player faced. This draw is more Tier II than Tier I.

Warsaw.
23 ZULUAGA, FABIOLA COL 4-6 6-2 6-0
24 MALEEVA, MAGDALENA BUL 6-1 6-0
11 ZVONAREVA, VERA RUS 6-3 6-2
14 KUZNETSOVA, SVETLANA RUS 6-1 6-4

Still didn't face one Top 10 player. At least this actually WAS a Tier II.

Berlin.
26 DANIILIDOU 7-5 6-3
21 SMASHNOVA6-3 6-1
17 SUAREZ 7-6(5) 5-7 6-2
29 SPREM 2-6 6-3 6-4
3 MAURESMO, AMELIE FRA W/O

Not one even one Top 15 player faced, got the final and defaulted when it was time to face real competition.

Venus for Roland Garros. :hearts:

Very well pointed out. This explains why Venus has not been beyond the quarters of Roland Garros since 2002. She is an also-ran on clay. The only thing going for her this year is the poor performance of the rest of the top 10 and the fact that no-one has emerged to fill the shoes of Queen Justine on clay yet.

Those Venus fans who were getting delusional after Acapulco need to calm themselves, as if Sabine Lisicki has not already done the job for them...

miffedmax
Apr 17th, 2009, 06:21 PM
This thread mentions both the year and the name of The Final That Must Not Be Named, which is tantamount to naming The Final That Must Not Be Named.

Therefore, this thread should be closed!






(Sadly, I suppose one of these ;) is necessary...)

Morrissey
Apr 17th, 2009, 06:35 PM
So what? Big deal Venus lost at Charleston this is green clay it isn't even the real clay that they play in Europe and that's red clay. Venus did win a red clay court title this year in Mexico. I just think it all "depends" on how Venus is playing. If Venus plays her best of course she can do well at the French Open. It all "depends" on how Venus is playing. In 2002 she beat Henin to win Amelia Island and at the French Open that year she destroyed Seles in the quarterfinals. I do believe though some people have a point Flavia Pennetta is not a top player. "If" Venus can beat some of the top ten players on clay this year this will boost her French Open chances. Venus has to obviously "beat" the best to win the French Open. I will say this though at least Venus has the right "attitude" she really wants to win the French Open it's obvious she is putting in the effort.Venus has won eight clay court titles as many as Henin so she can obviously play on the clay.

Uranium
Apr 17th, 2009, 07:15 PM
It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).

I hope she has a good showing at RG this year. If Kuzzy or Jankovic dont win it, I sure hope it's Venus.
Exactly, since 1997 she has not missed one RG, she has always played there and tried to win it.:worship:
has only defeated one Top 10 player on clay.

rank 7 Mauresmo d. Williams 6:7(6) 6:0 3:0 ret. [2003 Warsaw]
rank 6 Myskina d. Williams 6:3 6:4 [2004 Roland Garros]
rank 1 Davenport d. Williams 1:6 6:3 6:4 [2005 Amelia Island]
rank 10 Kuznetsova d. Williams 6:4 6:2 [2006 Warsaw]
rank 9 Jankovic d. Williams 3:6 6:3 7:6(5) [2007 Charleston]
rank 5 Kuznetsova d. Williams 3:6 6:3 6:4 [2007 Warsaw]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 6:4 4:6 6:1[2007 Roland Garros]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 5:7 6:2 6:3 [2008 Rome]

rank 12 Williams d. Schnyder 7:6(2) 3:6 6:1 [2006 Rome]
rank 13 Williams d. Schnyder 4:6 6:3 6:2 [2006 Roland Garros]

She's 2/10 her only two wins coming against the same person, Schnyder, who is known all over the tennis world for being Venus' lap dog. While Venus did have some good clay results in 2000-2001, she was aided on clay due to the aura and sheer fear of her it helps that these years are widely considered to be her peak years.

Oh, her 2004 clay court run?

Charleston.
92 REEVES 4-6 6-4 6-3
85 MIKAELIAN 6-4 6-1
11 ZVONAREVA 6-3 6-4
53 KOSTANIC, JELENA 6-4 6-1
24 MARTINEZ 2-6 6-2 6-1

Lost a set to an American nobody.
Kostanic was in the SFs of a Tier I, shows how weak it was that year.
Way past her peak Martinez in the final, didn't Martinez retire that next year?
Not one Top 10 player faced. This draw is more Tier II than Tier I.

Warsaw.
23 ZULUAGA, FABIOLA COL 4-6 6-2 6-0
24 MALEEVA, MAGDALENA BUL 6-1 6-0
11 ZVONAREVA, VERA RUS 6-3 6-2
14 KUZNETSOVA, SVETLANA RUS 6-1 6-4

Still didn't face one Top 10 player. At least this actually WAS a Tier II.

Berlin.
26 DANIILIDOU 7-5 6-3
21 SMASHNOVA6-3 6-1
17 SUAREZ 7-6(5) 5-7 6-2
29 SPREM 2-6 6-3 6-4
3 MAURESMO, AMELIE FRA W/O

Not one even one Top 15 player faced, got the final and defaulted when it was time to face real competition.

Venus for Roland Garros. :hearts:

That comment makes it seem like she was scared of Mauresmo, she wasn't; she rolled her ankle and was hurt. Venus beat Vera when ranked 11 twice and Sveta both of whom are good clay court players.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 07:21 PM
Exactly, since 1997 she has not missed one RG, she has always played there and tried to win it.:worship:


That comment makes it seem like she was scared of Mauresmo, she wasn't; she rolled her ankle and was hurt. Venus beat Vera when ranked 11 twice and Sveta both of whom are good clay court players.

And since 1997, and since she began playing RG, she has never passed the quarters once where she beat Seles and then the weakest semifinalist ever seen to get to the finals. No one has ever doubted her trying and wanting to win. We're doubting her ability to do so.

Venus' rank of opponents to the 2002 RG Final.

95, 93, 34, 45, Seles(6), Fernandez(87).

That's barely a Tier IV draw if you take out Seles. I know you can only beat who is in front of you, but that coupled with the fact that incidentally 2002 is the only time Venus has been past the quarters speaks volumes.

Uranium
Apr 17th, 2009, 07:45 PM
And since 1997, and since she began playing RG, she has never passed the quarters once where she beat Seles and then the weakest semifinalist ever seen to get to the finals. No one has ever doubted her trying and wanting to win. We're doubting her ability to do so.

Venus' rank of opponents to the 2002 RG Final.

95, 93, 34, 45, Seles(6), Fernandez(87).

That's barely a Tier IV draw if you take out Seles. I know you can only beat who is in front of you, but that coupled with the fact that incidentally 2002 is the only time Venus has been past the quarters speaks volumes.

Venus has no control over how her draws pan out:shrug: Clarisa Fernandez is the weakest ever? She beat Clijsters 6-4 6-0 and beat Dementieva and then would go on to be 26 in the world the next year.

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 07:51 PM
I agree that she has no control over them, but the fact that she hasn't followed it up and it will be seven years speaks for something. Don't you agree? In fact, she's only been back to even the QFs twice since then and she has played RG every year since 2002.

2003 4th round.
2004 QF.
2005 3rd round.
2006 QF.
2007 3rd round.
2008 3rd round.

When she arrives in Paris, she will have not passed the 3rd round for three years.

There is some weight in beating Clijsters, the returning finalist, but Dementieva in 2003 is hardly a scalp with that serve.

Outside of that RG SF, Fernandez has never been past the second round at RG in three other attempts.
Outside of that RG SF, Fernandez has only once been to the 3rd round of ANY of the four slams in 15 other attempts.

You can spin it how you want to but that draw has to be one of the easiest roads to the final this decade.

Uranium
Apr 17th, 2009, 08:02 PM
I agree:p I hope she proves us wrong this year though, hence my user title:angel:

Pristine
Apr 17th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Thank you. :inlove:

Inger67
Apr 17th, 2009, 09:59 PM
May I ask what the point of your thread was again?

Denise4925
Apr 17th, 2009, 10:06 PM
It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).

I hope she has a good showing at RG this year. If Kuzzy or Jankovic dont win it, I sure hope it's Venus.

Great post. :yeah:

pwayne
Apr 17th, 2009, 10:09 PM
What top 10 player did Venus beat on clay since 2002 French Open?

CJ07
Apr 17th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Well, Venus USED to be good on clay. She won Rome and Hamburg in 1999, Hamburg again in 2001 and then made that great comback against Henin in Amelia Island and of course the final of Roland Garros in 2002. Its just that sense she has been horrible.

The difference? In that 2002 match when she realized that things just weren't going in, she essentially moonballed, frustrated the hell out of Henin, used multiple drop shots and just ran her ragged. a.ka - STRATEGY. She realized that Plan A wasn't working and she wasn't in her rush the net phase yet (which isn't a really good plan B on clay in my opinion) so she payed more attention to point construction by utilizing the moon balls, which gave her more confidence as her errors consequently came down and then because of that confidence when she was set up she could go for the big shot.

She doesn't do that anymore.

Denise4925
Apr 17th, 2009, 10:40 PM
Berlin.
26 DANIILIDOU 7-5 6-3
21 SMASHNOVA6-3 6-1
17 SUAREZ 7-6(5) 5-7 6-2
29 SPREM 2-6 6-3 6-4
3 MAURESMO, AMELIE FRA W/O

Not one even one Top 15 player faced, got the final and defaulted when it was time to face real competition.

Venus for Roland Garros. :hearts:

The thing is, if it weren't for your constant reference to someone named Vernus, instead of giving a great champion the respect she deserves and this little tidbit here, you wouldn't be called a hater. You make it hard on yourself. Unfortunately for you, we fans can see straight through it. Even non-fans like Dave can see it.

Anyway, the bolded part is just :bs: because Venus sprained her ankle in the semis against Sprem. I believe it was the third set and she kept playing on it. I remember because it was very disappointing when she came onto the court the next day to withdraw ON CRUTCHES!! So, what you said here was a haters thing to say. :shrug:

espntennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 04:48 AM
The thing is, if it weren't for your constant reference to someone named Vernus,

Vernus?

Venus could play better on clay. In fact I believe she should have won RG 02 but that's a different story.

Clay brings out the question mark in Venus. Does she want "it'? She's won Wimbledon 3x since 2005. Does she use RG as a a warmup. Alot of questions

However OT as it may be, Venus used to be the QUEEN of US hardcourts. Hard to believe she hasn't won the USO since 2001;

youizahoe
Apr 18th, 2009, 05:58 AM
Venus should be able to win more on clay, but each time she gets so tight on that surface, but I have seen a match in Charleston, she's finally getting that topspin and slicing under control. I seriously think she'll beat some top10 players on clay this year.

Slutiana
Apr 18th, 2009, 11:50 AM
I think the same.

This year might be different for Venus, though. Her past 12 months have been far superior leading into the clay season than any other year past, since 2002. In 2002, she reached the final. I think if she can stop being such a hot mess in these clay lead ups, she'll do well, because she's a much better clay courter than her Roland Garros results indicate. Can't believe she's only passed the QF just once. :eek:
Hmm yeah.

I also think that in a lot of the years (07, 05...etc) she hadn't even been in good form coming into the clay season. Its not like as soon as she got onto the clay season her results just dropped, they were similar to what they had been all year..
And then other years she didnt have much preparation at all because she was only just coming back from injury. (08, 06 etc..) And that also bit her in the butt.

So lets see how she does now. I'll discount the form she showed in this tournament because she just cannot play on green clay as it completely takes away her movement and footwork and she cant even slide on it. But lets just see how she does on the red clay because shes definatly more used to it and definatly a much better slider on it. And also shes been playing with much more spin, much more margin for error and constructing points more than ever so you never know!

TomTennis
Apr 18th, 2009, 02:53 PM
Both Rome (if that is the other tournament she is playing) and Madrid should be really good prep for Roland Garros. Not only will she have to play unknowns and players ranked outside the top 30, she should also have to play some top 10 players as well, which may present her with the best possible RG warm up she has ever had. I guess we'll just have to see...

VeeReeDavJCap81
Apr 18th, 2009, 06:51 PM
We all know Venus will probably never win RG, so enough with these redundant threads.

PEAK97
May 9th, 2009, 12:11 AM
Updated lost to Safina another failure to get a Top 10 win.

PEAK97
May 9th, 2009, 12:45 AM
:zzz:

vwfan
May 9th, 2009, 01:15 PM
Quite weird actually how that happens.

Also since 2005, she's only lost to Jankovic at Wimbledon. Who hasn't even seen a QF at SW19 and isn't even comfortable on the grass. But then again this is Venus where unpredictability IS PREDICTABLE.

With the way the seeds are looking thus far, Venus could be facing Kuznetsova, Petrova, Radwanska, or Wozniacki in as early as the fourth round. Those four are all tough matchups for her on clay. Then a potential Serena, Safina, Jankovic, Dementieva SF. She isn't the favorite in any of those except arguably against Dementieva. Her best bet is to really push hard to get into the top four before the draw comes out to avoid those 9-12 seeds all four of those could send her packing.

1. She won't be facing Kuznetsova in the 4th round, they'll both be in the top 8.
2. She has never lost to Petrova, even on clay.
3. She just thumped Radwanska convincingly.
4. She has never lost to Wozniacki, not even a set.
5. She is tied with Serena in h2h on clay
6. She owns Dementieva, even on clay.

Her competition on clay is greater than on grass for sure. But it is not the players you named. Jankovic matches to Venus well on any surface, so will always be a tough matchup.

For now, it seems Safina and Kuzzie are the players to beat this year on clay for everyone, not just Venus. And despite her loss yesterday, she certainly showed that she can compete.

shortangles02
Jun 13th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Actually it is the lower ranked players that are Venus' biggest worries. The Karatantcheva's, Lisicki's etc. Venus is more likely to lose early than go deep in Parism but you cannot guarantee that she will be upset early.

Venus doesn't face a top player till the later rounds, and who do you see beating Venus in a slam SF/Final? Of the current top 10, I would only give Serena and Ivanovic a definite chance. Possibly Jankovic or Dementieva. My point is, Venus has a huge mental edge over most others at that stage of a slam.


I don't think anyone is saying Venus is a top favourite (because she's not). If you say she has no chance of winning it though, you are underrating her.

Venus can win Roland Garros, but the level SHE personally needs to win RG with her brand of tennis requires a level that Venus hasn't summoned outside of Wimbledon almost eons ago.

That is actually where (as Golovinjured stated earlier) this year looks better for Venus. Since Wimbledon she has been producing her best stuff. 4/5 tournaments won accross 3 different surfaces. She almost beat the entire top 10 within two tournaments at the end of 08. She hasn't had those sort of numbers since before 2003.


If this was last year or before, I would probably agree that Venus really shouldn't be considered for RG. This year is different, she deserves more ofa chance. She is playing at a generally higher level than she normally does this time of year.

The real red clay season has yet to begin. She is scheduled for two red clay tournaments and then of course Paris. Lets see if this JESUS form you keep referring to continues. Like I said before, only Venus can prove me wrong.

Hope Vernus doesn't show up. :hearts:

Very well pointed out. This explains why Venus has not been beyond the quarters of Roland Garros since 2002. She is an also-ran on clay. The only thing going for her this year is the poor performance of the rest of the top 10 and the fact that no-one has emerged to fill the shoes of Queen Justine on clay yet.

Those Venus fans who were getting delusional after Acapulco need to calm themselves, as if Sabine Lisicki has not already done the job for them...

I agree that she has no control over them, but the fact that she hasn't followed it up and it will be seven years speaks for something. Don't you agree? In fact, she's only been back to even the QFs twice since then and she has played RG every year since 2002.

2003 4th round.
2004 QF.
2005 3rd round.
2006 QF.
2007 3rd round.
2008 3rd round.

When she arrives in Paris, she will have not passed the 3rd round for FOUR years.

There is some weight in beating Clijsters, the returning finalist, but Dementieva in 2003 is hardly a scalp with that serve.

Outside of that RG SF, Fernandez has never been past the second round at RG in three other attempts.
Outside of that RG SF, Fernandez has only once been to the 3rd round of ANY of the four slams in 15 other attempts.

You can spin it how you want to but that draw has to be one of the easiest roads to the final this decade.

Going for flat DTL winners on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th shots is not going to win on slow red clay. Fastest Rome clay is not a reliable RG indicator.

The Witch-king
Jun 13th, 2009, 11:30 AM
Tell that to Soderling

vesanto
Jun 13th, 2009, 12:08 PM
To be honest Venus is playing too passive lately, even on hardcourts. Ok, she doesn't produce so many unforced erros but I honestly believe she would be much more effective on clay if she attacked more like she did in the early 2000s. Going for big rallies expose her lack of ability on clay, if she attacks first, she has the power to control the point and therefore her movement is not so exposed.