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View Full Version : Defining 'Dominant': 13 Slam Finals in a Row


Volcana
Apr 13th, 2009, 12:58 PM
RG '87 - RG '90, winning nine of them.


That might not be unprecented. I didn't go back before 1950 when I checking. But if you do something in tennis that Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Chris Evert, and Martina Navratilova didn't do, you're a halfway decent player.

Sam L
Apr 13th, 2009, 01:03 PM
RG '87 - RG '90, winning nine of them.


That might not be unprecented. I didn't go back before 1950 when I checking. But if you do something in tennis that Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Chris Evert, and Martina Navratilova didn't do, you're a halfway decent player.

Helen Wills reached and won 10 grand slam finals between 1927-30 from 13 possible grand slams. The 3 she didn't were the 3 she didn't play in Australia.

9/13 (4 losses) or 10/13 (3 DNP)? I'll take the latter. Thanks.

$uricate
Apr 13th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Steffi is GOAT :hearts:

That stat is great, but Im still upset she never got the Double Steffi Slam :(

Volcana
Apr 13th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Helen Wills reached and won 10 grand slam finals between 1927-30 from 13 possible grand slams. The 3 she didn't were the 3 she didn't play in Australia.

9/13 (4 losses) or 10/13 (3 DNP)? I'll take the latter. Thanks.Feel free. Too bad she made the choice not to play. We'll never know if she would have won those three tournaments, or lost in the first round. We KNOW what Graf did.

Personally, I always remember to include Wills Moody on my list of all-time greats, because I don't revere the Open Era as definitively better than the pre-Open era. (Perhaps a discussion for another time.)

AnnaK_4ever
Apr 13th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Too bad she made the choice not to play.

cos it was so easy to travel to Australia back in 1920s :rolleyes:

Caillou
Apr 13th, 2009, 01:53 PM
omg why do we keep going back to these times? we all know what the level of competition was like, geeeeeeez

miffedmax
Apr 13th, 2009, 02:22 PM
Defining "Frustrating" Three straight Slam semis, and NO finals. But I digress.

Sure, the competition in the Pre-Open era wasn't as good as in the Open era. The players didn't have the time, the equipment, the training techniques or the financial resources to prepare the way pros do. For that matter, neither did the players of the '70s and '80s compared to the players of today.

Still, they were playing the best competitors they could. Winning one of the slams was the gateway to having a "pro" career (such as it was in those days). My old man still insist Don Budge could beat anybody playing today*--and Budge was ranked #1 as both an amatuer and a pro. And he wasn't the only one (Bobby Riggs succeeded him in both categories, as I recall).

Give the old-timers their props. Given what they were up against, winning majors was just as hard as it is for the modern players. Send Serena back in time--we'll hypothetically assume that racism is not an issue--she'd succeed. Bring Helen Wills Moody forward, put her on a modern regimen, etc., she'd succeed. Because they have the hearts and minds of champions.

(*of course, he insist Sammy Baugh is the greatest quarterback, Nagurski and Motley the best backs, etc. etc.)

Volcana
Apr 13th, 2009, 02:30 PM
cos it was so easy to travel to Australia back in 1920s :rolleyes:So what you're saying is that winning OZ and any other slam was HARDER then than it is today. :) After all, it's a 24 hour plane trip NOW. Couple weeks on a boat? Kinda makes what Margaret Court did seem greater by comparison, doesn't it?

Things were different when Wills Moody and Lengeln played, than when Connollu played, than when Court played ....

Exactly how much did sexism limit them? How do you quantify that? I can as easily make the argument that when Wills Moody did was harder than what Evert did. Society wasn't exactly approving of female athletss in the 1920's.

Ever try to figure out what fighting homophobia cost Navratilova? Call me when you figure that out. Yet the fact that it DID have some kind of affect is undeniable.

Anabelcroft
Apr 13th, 2009, 03:00 PM
Steffi,one and only!!!

kman
Apr 13th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Graf is still second to Navratilova.

supergrunt
Apr 13th, 2009, 04:14 PM
level of competition

DokicPova
Apr 13th, 2009, 04:24 PM
volcana seriously needs to go outside and breath fresh air, she LIVES in this forum. :tape:

AnomyBC
Apr 13th, 2009, 10:24 PM
RG '87 - RG '90, winning nine of them.


That might not be unprecented. I didn't go back before 1950 when I checking. But if you do something in tennis that Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, Chris Evert, and Martina Navratilova didn't do, you're a halfway decent player.

That's nowhere's near as impressive as what Helen Wills Moody did. She made the finals of the last SEVENTEEN majors that she played and won SIXTEEN of them, and FOURTEEN of them in a row. Now that's dominance.

And what Maureen Connolly did was also more impressive. She won the last NINE majors that she played and would have likely continued that streak had it not been for her accident.

Kart
Apr 13th, 2009, 11:42 PM
Steffi is a legend :cool:.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 14th, 2009, 12:20 AM
^^^ Ditto, a GIANT OF THE GAME

darrinbaker00
Apr 14th, 2009, 12:22 AM
Defining "Frustrating" Three straight Slam semis, and NO finals. But I digress.

Sure, the competition in the Pre-Open era wasn't as good as in the Open era. The players didn't have the time, the equipment, the training techniques or the financial resources to prepare the way pros do. For that matter, neither did the players of the '70s and '80s compared to the players of today.

Still, they were playing the best competitors they could. Winning one of the slams was the gateway to having a "pro" career (such as it was in those days). My old man still insist Don Budge could beat anybody playing today*--and Budge was ranked #1 as both an amatuer and a pro. And he wasn't the only one (Bobby Riggs succeeded him in both categories, as I recall).

Give the old-timers their props. Given what they were up against, winning majors was just as hard as it is for the modern players. Send Serena back in time--we'll hypothetically assume that racism is not an issue--she'd succeed. Bring Helen Wills Moody forward, put her on a modern regimen, etc., she'd succeed. Because they have the hearts and minds of champions.

(*of course, he insist Sammy Baugh is the greatest quarterback, Nagurski and Motley the best backs, etc. etc.)
Being from the Bay Area, Max, I know a couple of octogenarians who insist that Don Budge and Helen Wills Moody were the greatest tennis players who will ever live. Of course, they knew Budge and Wills Moody personally, so their opinion is a little biased, but since they saw those two play and I didn't, I can't really argue with them.

tennisvideos
Apr 14th, 2009, 01:20 AM
Of the older generation Helen Wills, Suzanne Lenglen and Maureen Connolly were the standouts and all had phenomenal win/loss records and consecutive Slam finals. All up there on the greatest ever podium.

Of the recent greats, Graf has the best consecutive Slam final ratio for sure with winning 9 of 13 consecutive finals.

Just for a perspective on the other recent greats (all astonishing performances in their own right):
* Navratilova at one stage won 10 of 14 GS that she entered including 1 runner-up (from 1982)
* Court won 8 of 9 GS that she entered (between 69-71) and at an earlier period won 9 of 14 including 3 x runner-up (62-65).
* Evert won 9 of 13 that she entered at one stage including 1 runner-up.
* Not sure of Billie-Jean King?

All of these players are all time greats.

Suprisingly, Evonne Goolagong made the final of 17 of 21 GS titles that she entered at one stage, but she only won 6. Still, an astonishing feat for any player.

spencercarlos
Apr 14th, 2009, 02:38 AM
Steffi is a legend :cool:.
And what about the player who beat Steffi the most? :angel: :hehehe:

LDVTennis
Apr 14th, 2009, 02:44 AM
And what about the player who beat Steffi the most? :angel: :hehehe:

Not a legend, just very lucky... :p

spencercarlos
Apr 14th, 2009, 03:45 AM
Not a legend, just very lucky... :p
Funny how Graf won the first 11 meetings before Gaby got her first one til ending up her count in 11 :lol: :p

LDVTennis
Apr 14th, 2009, 04:38 AM
Funny how Graf won the first 11 meetings before Gaby got her first one til ending up her count in 11 :lol: :p

Gaby also lost her last 8 matches to Steffi. In four of those matches, Steffi won a set at love (6-0). So, what's your point?

None of this would have been necessary, of course, if you had only realized that my quip about Gaby having been lucky was just a joke.

Volcana
Apr 14th, 2009, 04:42 AM
(*of course, he insist Sammy Baugh is the greatest quarterback, Nagurski and Motley the best backs, etc. etc.)I'd go Jim Brown myself, but the Nagurski argument is supportable. Not conclusive, but it has some merit.

darrinbaker00
Apr 14th, 2009, 04:54 AM
Gaby also lost her last 8 matches to Steffi. In four of those matches, Steffi won a set at love (6-0). So, what's your point?

None of this would have been necessary, of course, if you had only realized that my quip about Gaby having been lucky was just a joke.
A tap dance that Fred Astaire would have been proud of.....

Anabelcroft
Apr 14th, 2009, 10:23 AM
Didn't know that Gaby beat Steffi more than Seles and Williams sisters together...great effort Gaby!At one point she had the mental edge over Steffi until Steffi turned it around again...

Sam L
Apr 14th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Being from the Bay Area, Max, I know a couple of octogenarians who insist that Don Budge and Helen Wills Moody were the greatest tennis players who will ever live. Of course, they knew Budge and Wills Moody personally, so their opinion is a little biased, but since they saw those two play and I didn't, I can't really argue with them.

LOL I would so fit in with them. :lol:

Anyway, I'm not surprised. Helen did beat a top ten male player at the time. I can't remember his name. Also, I read that Don Budge actually idolized her as he was growing up and went to watch her practise. In other words, he was a fan as a young man. Not surprising since he was 10 years younger than her and would've been a young player as she was dominating tennis. Can you imagine Roger Federer doing the same to Steffi Graf back in the 90s? Unlikely. It's not actually the women's fault though. There appears to be just a lot of lack of respect for the women's tour and women's tennis these days.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Makes me think of poor Monica :awww:.

From just toward the end of her second year on the tour, Monica Seles made 8 straight slam finals (that she played; skipping Wimbledon one year) and won 7 of those slams. [During these streaks, both Monica and Steffi managed a streak of 5 wins] She wasn't able to snap her own record, because some steffi fan decided to intervene. Who knows what sort of streak she could have put together had she been allowed. :sad:

But just think, Monica did this while Steffi was getting into her prime is she wasn't there already. Steffi went onto dominate also after her fan helped out. Sign of just how good Monica was. Shame really.

spencercarlos
Apr 14th, 2009, 12:14 PM
Gaby also lost her last 8 matches to Steffi. In four of those matches, Steffi won a set at love (6-0). So, what's your point?

None of this would have been necessary, of course, if you had only realized that my quip about Gaby having been lucky was just a joke.
I was not in a discussion and got your joke at first sight lol, just pointing out that the 11 number appears to be an important number in their head to head.

miffedmax
Apr 14th, 2009, 12:31 PM
LOL I would so fit in with them. :lol:

Anyway, I'm not surprised. Helen did beat a top ten male player at the time. I can't remember his name. Also, I read that Don Budge actually idolized her as he was growing up and went to watch her practise. In other words, he was a fan as a young man. Not surprising since he was 10 years younger than her and would've been a young player as she was dominating tennis. Can you imagine Roger Federer doing the same to Steffi Graf back in the 90s? Unlikely. It's not actually the women's fault though. There appears to be just a lot of lack of respect for the women's tour and women's tennis these days.

To his credit, though, Federer has alway complimented top women players for what they do well, unlike some of the men who just take cheap shots at the ladies.

Even in this modern world there's something to be said for being gentlemanly, I think.

LDVTennis
Apr 14th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Makes me think of poor Monica :awww:.

From just toward the end of her second year on the tour, Monica Seles made 8 straight slam finals (that she played; skipping Wimbledon one year) and won 7 of those slams. [During these streaks, both Monica and Steffi managed a streak of 5 wins] She wasn't able to snap her own record, because some steffi fan decided to intervene. Who knows what sort of streak she could have put together had she been allowed. :sad:

But just think, Monica did this while Steffi was getting into her prime is she wasn't there already. Steffi went onto dominate also after her fan helped out. Sign of just how good Monica was. Shame really.

Steffi WAS NOT "getting into her prime" from 1991-1993. I know you want to think this, but it's false.

Here's Steffi herself on the subject. The context is a 1994 presser at the Lipton Championships (March 15, 1994):

She was asked this question:

If you say that you have grown as a player now compared to back to 1988, if you had to pinpoint one specific thing that has changed everything for you, what would you say that is? Would it be the new racket? Would it be the training? What?

Her answer was:

I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had.

Heinz became her coach in the middle of 1992. His first major tournament with her was the 1992 Wimbledon. If you do the math, the couple of years in which Steffi "was not working hard" would have been 1990 and 1991. Those would been the years in which some have argued she was in a slump. In her own words, from 1990 to the beginning of her relationship with Heinz, she "wasn't working as hard. [S]he didn't do anything different. [She] just was playing tennis as a routine."

Here's the link to the full interview --- http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=19173

LDVTennis
Apr 14th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Anyway, I'm not surprised. Helen did beat a top ten male player at the time. I can't remember his name. Also, I read that Don Budge actually idolized her as he was growing up and went to watch her practise. In other words, he was a fan as a young man. Not surprising since he was 10 years younger than her and would've been a young player as she was dominating tennis. Can you imagine Roger Federer doing the same to Steffi Graf back in the 90s? Unlikely. It's not actually the women's fault though. There appears to be just a lot of lack of respect for the women's tour and women's tennis these days.

That lack of respect did not begin with Steffi Graf. Of all the women, in recent memory, she's probably the only one the male players answered questions about in their press conferences. There were Jim Courier's comments about how fitter she was than the rest of the tour. This was a view shared by his contemporary, Andre Agassi, who thought she had a great body years before there was any thought of marriage. Even the crotchety Pete Sampras once answered a question about Steffi Graf's game, comparing his strategy on the forehand to hers. Of course, Pete is better known for having blown up at reporter when he was asked how his serve compared to Venus Williams' serve. In response, Pete said that there was no comparison because Venus didn't even know where she was hitting the ball.