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tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:28 AM
5 Dead in Apparent Murder-Suicide in Alabama

Tuesday, April 07, 2009 http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_ap_36.gif


Print (http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,513010,00.html)
PRICEVILLE, Ala. — A man shot and killed his estranged wife, their teenage daughter and two other relatives in rural north Alabama before returning to his home in a nearby town and killing himself the day before their divorce trial, authorities said Tuesday.
Travis Clemmons, chief investigator for the Lauderdale County sheriff's office, said Kevin Garner's body was found Tuesday afternoon near his home in Priceville, which burned to the ground overnight. He said Garner apparently shot himself in the chest.
Earlier in the day, authorities had found the other four bodies in a home in Green Hill, a small community near the Tennessee line in a nearby county. Those bodies were identified as Garner's estranged wife, Tammy, 40; their 16-year-old daughter, Chelsie; and Garner's sister and the sister's 11-year-old son, Clemmons said. He identified the sister as Karen Beaty of Illinois but did not have other information about her and the slain boy.
Click here for photos. (http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,6981,00.html)
He said the four were shot, apparently with a handgun. Investigators said the killings happened around midnight Monday.
It was one of eight mass shootings around the country in the last month that have left grief-stricken communities in shock. It's also the third mass killing in Alabama during that time.

Clemmons said a neighbor came across the street to the house Tuesday morning to visit but called authorities after seeing a body through glass in the door.
Clemmons said the divorce case appeared to be among the triggers of the violence.
"It wasn't just one particular thing, just everything happening at once," he said.
Court officials said the Garners had made an appearance in court Monday in advance of the trial, and nothing seemed unusual or indicated it would lead to killings.
"I just can't understand it," said Clemmons, "and with with a 16-year-old and an 11-year-old kid, there's nothing rational about it."
Jerry Knight, an attorney who represented Kevin Garner in the divorce case, said in an e-mail to The Associated Press that Garner "had a terrific work ethic and value system. I was terribly shocked and saddened by this unexpected tragedy."
Kevin Garner had worked at a Decatur chemical plant and Tammy Garner had been employed at a Huntsville department store.
In the divorce file, Tammy Garner sought custody of their daughter and alleged that her husband "has been both physically and emotionally abusive." He accused her of adultery.
He also accused his wife of taking $38,000 out of their joint bank account when they separated May 27, 2008.
Along with Garner's two-story house, which collapsed in the fire, a green Subaru Legacy belonging to Garner's wife was found burned in the Morgan County community of Somerville, less than 10 miles from the burned house.
The five deaths follow the stabbing deaths of four people in a home in Hueytown, near Birmingham, on March 7, and the shooting deaths of 10 people on March 10 by a gunman in south Alabama who also took his own life.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,513010,00.html

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:31 AM
So, the question to you, pro-gun advocates, are you enjoying this shooting spree?

62 ppl in a week....

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:32 AM
:sad::scared:

Obama,guns should be banned for individuals,have you realised this?:unsure:

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:34 AM
oh yeah and before you, NRA junkies, start mumbling about the right to hunt, all these ppl were killed from a handgun

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:45 AM
:sad::scared:

Obama,guns should be banned for individuals,have you realised this?:unsure:Exactly how would you accomplish this?

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:45 AM
:sad::scared:

Obama,guns should be banned for individuals,have you realised this?:unsure:

Sadly it's not that simple. The gun culture is so deep in the US and the gun lobby so strong change is very hard.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:49 AM
Sadly it's not that simple. The gun culture is so deep in the US and the gun lobby so strong change is very hard.There's the small matter of the Bill of Rights to contend with too.

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:51 AM
No offense to the US, or whether you like it or not,China does a better job on the gun control.:)I am shocked as the most powerful country in the world,the US can't handdle the gun issue,it's weird for me:shrug:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:56 AM
So, the question to you, pro-gun advocates, are you enjoying this shooting spree?

62 ppl in a week.... How about 114 killed each day in car crashes? We don't need cars for transportation, people got along fine without them for thousands of years and there are safe alternatives. But this isn't really about saving lives, is it? It's about guns, something you apparently don't like and probably don't own. So it's easy for you to say they should be banned. But you probably enjoy the convenience that cars afford, so the death toll is tolerable.

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:00 AM
How about 114 killed each day in car crashes? We don't need cars for transportation, people got along fine without them for thousands of years and there are safe alternatives. But this isn't really about saving lives, is it? It's about guns, something you apparently don't like and probably don't own. So it's easy for you to say they should be banned. But you probably enjoy the convenience that cars afford, so the death toll is tolerable.

What is you exact point?:confused:
So, what is a gun used to for an ordinary American people?:eek:Do peole really need guns for daily life as they need cars?:confused:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:01 AM
No offense to the US, or whether you like it or not,China does a better job on the gun control.:)I am shocked as the most powerful country in the world,the US can't handdle the gun issue,it's weird for me:shrug:Yeah, apparently China does a great job with the gun issue. The government may issue you a uniform and a gun to use against your own citizens but otherwise you are prohibited from owning one? I'm pretty happy with the way our founding fathers handled the "gun issue", thank you.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:03 AM
No offense to the US, or whether you like it or not,China does a better job on the gun control.:)I am shocked as the most powerful country in the world,the US can't handdle the gun issue,it's weird for me:shrug:

Again you don't understand American gun culture. China is not America two different cultures which handle things differently.


There's the small matter of the Bill of Rights to contend with too.

As you know the situation in America was a lot different back then. It really has nothing to do with modern America.

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:07 AM
How about 114 killed each day in car crashes? We don't need cars for transportation, people got along fine without them for thousands of years and there are safe alternatives. But this isn't really about saving lives, is it? It's about guns, something you apparently don't like and probably don't own. So it's easy for you to say they should be banned. But you probably enjoy the convenience that cars afford, so the death toll is tolerable.

here we go again... typical NRA crap. car accidents called ACCIDENTS for a reason. and if NRA can't comprehend the difference between the accident and the murder, then there is really nothing left to talk about.

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:09 AM
So,what does a gun mean for an ordinary people?Does every American people want a gun?

I am very much curious about the "gun culture:eek:" in USA.Could you please tell me more?Thank you:)

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:09 AM
What is you exact point?:confused:
So, what is a gun used to for an ordinary American people?:eek:Do peole really need guns for daily life as they need cars?:confused:Please define "need". How can people "need" something that's only been around for about 100 years? How can some people "need" a car, while others do not? I believe cars are a convenience, not a need.
The only thing I use guns for is hunting and trap/target shooting. Why should I not be able to do so? It doesn't make sense to prohibit me from doing so because someone else has used a firearm to break the law. If someone is inclined to break the law, making firearms illegal isn't going to stop them anymore than making cocaine possession illegal is going to stop anyone from snorting cocaine. And banning guns isn't going to make guns any less available than banning cocaine makes cocaine less available.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:10 AM
here we go again... typical NRA crap. car accidents called ACCIDENTS for a reason. and if NRA can't comprehend the difference between the accident and the murder, then there is really nothing left to talk about.I believe there are already laws prohibiting murder. And I'm no friend of the NRA.

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Please define "need". How can people "need" something that's only been around for about 100 years? How can some people "need" a car, while others do not? I believe cars are a convenience, not a need.
The only thing I use guns for is hunting and trap/target shooting. Why should I not be able to do so? It doesn't make sense to prohibit me from doing so because someone else has used a firearm to break the law. If someone is inclined to break the law, making firearms illegal isn't going to stop them anymore than making cocaine possession illegal is going to stop anyone from snorting cocaine. And banning guns isn't going to make guns any less available than banning cocaine makes cocaine less available.
well until the 60's black ppl were not allowed to ride on a bus with white ppl and that was also "normal" or "how it should be" or "cultural" to a lot...

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Again you don't understand American gun culture. China is not America two different cultures which handle things differently.




As you know the situation in America was a lot different back then. It really has nothing to do with modern America.The Bill of Rights has nothing to do with modern America?

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:15 AM
So,what does a gun mean for an ordinary people?Does every American people want a gun?

I am very much curious about the "gun culture:eek:" in USA.Could you please tell me more?Thank you:)

Not everyone wants a gun, I know I don't. The right to keep and bare arms is in the Bill of Rights. If you're curious about American gun culture you should read up on the Bill of Rigts. That's a good starting point then type in "American gun culture" in any search engine. Doing a search on the NRA is also good. It's a bit much to get into on here. Once you've done all that you'll see how things work in the US when it comes to guns.

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:15 AM
I believe there are already laws prohibiting murder. And I'm no friend of the NRA.

what's the point to prohibit the murder but not the weapon that most of those murders comitted with?

ps. hard to believe you are not a friend of NRA. well, maybe you are not a friend, but they definitely zombied you with their lies.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:17 AM
The Bill of Rights has nothing to do with modern America?

I'm talking about the times our forefathers lived in when they wrote it. They actually had reasons to bare arms. It's a totally different world and life in America has changed since then.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:21 AM
So,what does a gun mean for an ordinary people?Does every American people want a gun?

I am very much curious about the "gun culture:eek:" in USA.Could you please tell me more?Thank you:)Not every American wants to own a gun. But, up until fairly recently, nearly all Americans respected the right to do so if you choose. But it's somewhat human nature for people to want to impose their values on everyone, so people who don't like guns don't want anyone to have one, people who don't like abortion don't want anyone to have one, people who don't want to marry someone of the same sex don't want anyone to be able to, etc.

Hunting and firearms are long held traditions in many families, especially in rural America. So, it's really easy for city folk who don't share those traditions to wag their fingers at people who do and advocate taking that freedom away. This is especially ironic in light of the fact that gun violence is rampant in cities where firearm ownership is heavily restricted and firearms aren't so much part of the mainstream culture, while in rural areas where there are guns in nearly every home, gun violence is extremely rare.

RFSTB
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:22 AM
Please define "need". How can people "need" something that's only been around for about 100 years? How can some people "need" a car, while others do not? I believe cars are a convenience, not a need.
The only thing I use guns for is hunting and trap/target shooting. Why should I not be able to do so? It doesn't make sense to prohibit me from doing so because someone else has used a firearm to break the law. If someone is inclined to break the law, making firearms illegal isn't going to stop them anymore than making cocaine possession illegal is going to stop anyone from snorting cocaine. And banning guns isn't going to make guns any less available than banning cocaine makes cocaine less available.

OK then, let's just make nuclear weapons and rocket launchers available to everyone. Why ban those? Making them illegal isn't going to stop drug cartels and rogue regimes from acquiring them. :rolleyes:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:23 AM
well until the 60's black ppl were not allowed to ride on a bus with white ppl and that was also "normal" or "how it should be" or "cultural" to a lot...I'm not talking about "normal", "how it should be" or "cultural", I'm talking about need. And cars are a convenience, not a need.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:25 AM
what's the point to prohibit the murder but not the weapon that most of those murders comitted with?

ps. hard to believe you are not a friend of NRA. well, maybe you are not a friend, but they definitely zombied you with their lies.Is it necessary to insult me?

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:26 AM
A piece of very sad news brings us a very interesting debateI hate the gunshooting but I love this debate:)

You guys are all great with some great points:yeah:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:26 AM
OK then, let's just make nuclear weapons and rocket launchers available to everyone. Why ban those? Making them illegal isn't going to stop drug cartels and rogue regimes from acquiring them. :rolleyes:The right to bear arms, just like the right to free speech, is not unlimited.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:27 AM
A piece of very sad news brings us a very interesting debateI hate the gunshooting but I love this debate:)

You guys are all great with some great points:yeah:That's a very nice observation. I feel the same way.:wavey:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:30 AM
I'm talking about the times our forefathers lived in when they wrote it. They actually had reasons to bare arms. It's a totally different world and life in America has changed since then.What reasons did they have that we don't?

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:31 AM
Not every American wants to own a gun. But, up until fairly recently, nearly all Americans respected the right to do so if you choose. But it's somewhat human nature for people to want to impose their values on everyone, so people who don't like guns don't want anyone to have one, people who don't like abortion don't want anyone to have one, people who don't want to marry someone of the same sex don't want anyone to be able to, etc.
Hunting and firearms are long held traditions in many families, especially in rural America. So, it's really easy for city folk who don't share those traditions to wag their fingers at people who do and advocate taking that freedom away. This is especially ironic in light of the fact that gun violence is rampant in cities where firearm ownership is heavily restricted and firearms aren't so much part of the mainstream culture, while in rural areas where there are guns in nearly every home, gun violence is extremely rare.


Putting gun, abortion and same-sex marriage together is inappropriate for me.

Your gun could aim at me as in a gun spree,so I will oppose your gun possession,but your abortion and same-sex marriage will not affect me.so,from this point,gun should be banned.:)

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:42 AM
What reasons did they have that we don't?

Oh I dunno the whole British thing, that was still fresh in their minds. It made sense to have arms back then do to a possibility of another attack. Lots of families depended on hunting and it's not like you could dial 911 incase of an emergency.

Halardfan
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:47 AM
The proof of the pudding is in the eating...the gun culture in America is a significant factor in why America regulary has the highest murder rates of comparable western countries. I would argue that is a direct legacy of the right to bear arms.
Pro-gun people see all those deaths as a price worth paying.

So it will never get any better. The gun lobby is too strong, the mythology surrounding guns in America is too strong.

mckyle.
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:50 AM
There was also a murder-suicide in my hometown in Alabama this past weekend. We're usually not this crazy guys :o This recession has everyone :crazy:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:53 AM
Putting gun, abortion and same-sex marriage together is inappropriate for me.

Your gun could aim at me as in a gun spree,so I will oppose your gun possession,but your abortion and same-sex marriage will not affect me.so,from this point,gun should be banned.:)The only thing those examples have in common is that many people not only find them unacceptable for themselves, they wish to prohibit others from doing them as well. And such people formulate arguments to support their position that those things hurt everybody.
As for your proposition that my gun, or any gun, could be aimed at you in a gun spree, the reality of that is extremely unlikely. According to U.S. Department of Justice crime statistics, such crimes accounted for only 18 out of 14,121 homicides committed in the U.S. in 2004. The vast majority of murders were committed by and against family members, friends and acquantainces. Random shooting sprees make great headlines, but it is extremely unlikely that you or anyone is going to be the victim of one. You are far more likely to be killed by lightning. It's easy for anyone to keep firearms out of their home, which is your right. Just please, don't try to keep them out of my home, thank you. The odds of me turning that firearm against you are extremely slim.

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Has there been any governmental attempt to ban guns in the US,?Maybe it's time for the new administration to try this and make a national poll?:unsure:

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:59 AM
Oh I dunno the whole British thing, that was still fresh in their minds. It made sense to have arms back then do to a possibility of another attack. Lots of families depended on hunting and it's not like you could dial 911 incase of an emergency.And today, there is no possibility that my home could be attacked? Where I live, and in many parts of rural America (which still comprises most of the country), hunting is still an important food source for many families and dialing 911 does not bring about a speedy response. I live in a huge county, and on any given night, there are 2 deputies patrolling the county. The closest one, assuming he or she is available, may be an hour away.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:05 AM
Has there been any governmental attempt to ban guns in the US,?Maybe it's time for the new administration to try this and make a national poll?:unsure:Amending the Constitution is a very difficult thing to do, thank goodness. I can't see the day when the Constitution will be amended to alter the Bill of Rights. They are viewed as sacred and indelible rights by most Americans.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:06 AM
And today, there is no possibility that my home could be attacked? Where I live, and in many parts of rural America (which still comprises most of the country), hunting is still an important food source for many families and dialing 911 does not bring about a speedy response. I live in a huge county, and on any given night, there are 2 deputies patrolling the county. The closest one, assuming he or she is available, may be an hour away.

I really don't mind the whole hunting thing but hunting to survive is not the norm in modern America. What are the chances of your house being broken into? Especially living in an isloated rural area. I live in a urban setting and the chances of my place being broken into is pretty high but yet I live on without a gun.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:18 AM
I really don't mind the whole hunting thing but hunting to survive is not the norm in modern America. What are the chances of your house being broken into? Especially living in an isloated rural area. I live in a urban setting and the chances of my place being broken into is pretty high but yet I live on without a gun.Hunting to survive is not the norm in modern America, but it is still an important source of food for many people where I live. Even food shelves around here count on venison in the fall.

You used the possibility of an attack by the British as a reason for Americans to bear arms in the 18th century; my point is that the British aren't the only possible source of attack. As for home/personal protection, that isn't why I own firearms, it's purely for tradition and hunting. Most of the firearms I own are family heirlooms passed down from generation to generation. I helped each of my sons purchase their first hunting rifle and I fully expect those rifles to be passed on to their sons or daughters. I own no handguns and don't view my firearms as a source of protection, although I suppose they could be, most likely from an aggressive animal rather than a person.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:31 AM
Hunting to survive is not the norm in modern America, but it is still an important source of food for many people where I live. Even food shelves around here count on venison in the fall.

You used the possibility of an attack by the British as a reason for Americans to bear arms in the 18th century; my point is that the British aren't the only possible source of attack. As for home/personal protection, that isn't why I own firearms, it's purely for tradition and hunting. Most of the firearms I own are family heirlooms passed down from generation to generation. I helped each of my sons purchase their first hunting rifle and I fully expect those rifles to be passed on to their sons or daughters. I own no handguns and don't view my firearms as a source of protection, although I suppose they could be, most likely from an aggressive animal rather than a person.

Like I said I don't mind having guns for hunting as long as it's done humanly and the animal is actually used for food. You seem to have a respectful tradition of guns in your family and I admire that.

I just don't feel comfortable with the easy in which an average ciitzen can get a gun in this country. But either way you're guns are safe. We both know there is little to no chance that your guns will ever be taken away.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:42 AM
Like I said I don't mind having guns for hunting as long as it's done humanly and the animal is actually used for food. You seem to have a respectful tradition of guns in your family and I admire that.

I just don't feel comfortable with the easy in which an average ciitzen can get a gun in this country. But either way you're guns are safe. We both know there is little to no chance that your guns will ever be taken away.I appreciate that. Thank you.
I'm no less disturbed by gun violence, and other forms of violence, in our culture than the most adamant gun opponent. I believe American culture is far too violent. Readily available firearms may fuel the problem, but in my view they aren't the problem. I believe Canada and Switzerland are examples of countries where guns are ubiquitous and gun violence is far less common than in the U.S. Michael Moore raised some interesting questions about the causes of violence in our culture in the movie Bowling for Columbine, and they seem to be many and varied.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:48 AM
Like I said I don't mind having guns for hunting as long as it's done humanly and the animal is actually used for food. You seem to have a respectful tradition of guns in your family and I admire that.

I just don't feel comfortable with the easy in which an average ciitzen can get a gun in this country. But either way you're guns are safe. We both know there is little to no chance that your guns will ever be taken away.I agree. But the NRA and certain elements in the Republican party sure like to try scaring gun owners away from voting for any Democrat by claiming that all Democrats want to take our guns away. That's why I'm no friend to the NRA. I think they have a political agenda that reaches far beyond promoting responsible gun ownership and the right to bear arms.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:56 AM
I appreciate that. Thank you.
I'm no less disturbed by gun violence, and other forms of violence, in our culture than the most adamant gun opponent. I believe American culture is far too violent. Readily available firearms may fuel the problem, but in my view they aren't the problem. I believe Canada and Switzerland are examples of countries where guns are ubiquitous and gun violence is far less common than in the U.S. Michael Moore raised some interesting questions about the causes of violence in our culture in the movie Bowling for Columbine, and they seem to be many and varied.

Just look at our movies, tv, video games and music all to some extent glorify the gun. It's so deep rooted in our history it's very hard to get away from. If everyone respected the power of guns like you and you're family I wouldn't mind so much. Too many people abuse their right to bare arms.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 10:05 AM
Just look at our movies, tv, video games and music all to some extent glorify the gun. It's so deep rooted in our history it's very hard to get away from. If everyone respected the power of guns like you and you're family I wouldn't mind so much. Too many people abuse their right to bare arms.Very true. Another great example Moore gave was television news coverage. He compared American television news with Canadian, and the difference was thought provoking. While Canadian news reported largely on world, national and local politics, American news constantly throws murder, rape and other crimes in our faces. Even our news is violent.

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Very true. Another great example Moore gave was television news coverage. He compared American television news with Canadian, and the difference was thought provoking. While Canadian news reported largely on world, national and local politics, American news constantly throws murder, rape and other crimes in our faces. Even our news is violent.

Sadly I vaguely remember Bowling for Columbine, I'll have to watch it again. I've given up on the local news many moons ago. Such utter sensationalist trash. It's like watching Extra or E news.

Lin Lin
Apr 8th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Anyway,hope no more victims of gun shooting:(

tennisbear7
Apr 8th, 2009, 10:22 AM
I've got nothing against responsible ownership of guns, but when everybody has access to them, it becomes a problem because guns can become weapons to vent out anger and frustration. So, the solution would be to ban them and only give license to those who do not have serious criminal pasts, IMO. That's what they did in Australia. Very proud to say that the laws seriously toughened up after the 1996 massacre in Tasmania, and nothing of the sort has happened since. Those who demonstrate responsibility are given the right to bear arms. Those who aren't, shouldn't be given the choice.

I'm not quite sure why this concept is hard to understand. I'm sure it has to do with the gun culture in the States.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 10:27 AM
I've got nothing against responsible ownership of guns, but when everybody has access to them, it becomes a problem because guns can become weapons to vent out anger and frustration. So, the solution would be to ban them and only give license to those who do not have serious criminal pasts, IMO. That's what they did in Australia. Very proud to say that the laws seriously toughened up after the 1996 massacre in Tasmania, and nothing of the sort has happened since. Those who demonstrate responsibility are given the right to bear arms. Those who aren't, shouldn't be given the choice.

I'm not quite sure why this concept is hard to understand. I'm sure it has to do with the gun culture in the States.First off, guns can't be "banned" in the U.S. unless the Bill of Rights is amended, which is extremely unlikely. However, in the U.S., if you are a convicted felon (serious criminal) or have been diagnosed with a major psychotic disorder, you are prohibited by law from owning or possessiong firearms.

tommyk75
Apr 8th, 2009, 11:32 AM
Hmm... Do people need jobs? Duh, right? Well, people often need cars to get to their jobs, especially somewhere like L.A., where the public transportation system may as well not exist. And that cocaine analogy is ridiculous. If cocaine was legal, it WOULD be a whole lot more available. And finally, hunting sucks.

tennisbear7
Apr 8th, 2009, 12:19 PM
First off, guns can't be "banned" in the U.S. unless the Bill of Rights is amended, which is extremely unlikely. However, in the U.S., if you are a convicted felon (serious criminal) or have been diagnosed with a major psychotic disorder, you are prohibited by law from owning or possessiong firearms.

But because guns are so prevalent in the first place, it's easier to get your hands on them.

The major qualm I have with guns is the fact that it's readily available and there for use when you're angry or feeling violent. The more guns you have available, the more they're going to be used. It's not rocket science. And it's no wonder that the USA has a lot of massacres these days. It comes down to accessibility, and when guns are as accessible as they are in the States, you get murders and rampages.

The question is whether people are going to do something about it, instead of putting up defences and said that criminals would get them anyway. A lot of people who use guns haven't offended or been a criminal until they've actually shot 10, 20 in a mall.

saint2
Apr 8th, 2009, 12:52 PM
Sad story. Condolences to all affected.

Whats also sad that there are some clowns who use tragic accidents to promote their strange lobby.

TeenAce doesn't like the guns. I also don't like, so here we have something common. But what differ us is thet he thinks he has a RIGHT to enforce his belief on others. I don't think I have that rights. Guys , who do You think You are to ban/allow anyone to buy/use things like guns ? NWO creators ? Think about Yourself...

Scotso
Apr 8th, 2009, 12:56 PM
So, the question to you, pro-gun advocates, are you enjoying this shooting spree?

62 ppl in a week....

Yeah, of course! :D

Nothing makes us pro-gun advocates happier than a nice afternoon killing spree. :yippee:

I'm going to go make some popcorn so I can sit back and enjoy the CNN story.

madlove
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:01 PM
sad sad world!

saint2
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:03 PM
I think we should end with than absourdous nonsence like "its not cars kill people, its people kill people".

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/fatal-accident-statistics.html

What do U think? Ban a cars ? To make us safer ?

tenn_ace
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:14 PM
Is it necessary to insult me?

Didn't intend to... What I was trying to say is that NRA brainwashed you.

Scotso
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:29 PM
This guy obviously went nuts. These are people he knew and could get close to, it wouldn't have been hard for him to kill them even if he didn't have access to a gun.


Amending the Constitution is a very difficult thing to do, thank goodness. I can't see the day when the Constitution will be amended to alter the Bill of Rights. They are viewed as sacred and indelible rights by most Americans.

Yes, the Bill of Rights are sacred. It's the most important part of the Constitution. The only time they would ever make changes would be to increase our rights, not decrease them. It won't happen.


What are the chances of your house being broken into? Especially living in an isloated rural area. I live in a urban setting and the chances of my place being broken into is pretty high but yet I live on without a gun.

Have you been robbed? Did you catch the person in there? Did he try to rape you? Did he threaten your life? If any of those things happened, you might be singing a different tune.

When I lived in the country, our house was broken into three times in four years. It hsn't happened once since we have lived in the city. Isolated areas are perfect targets for criminals because there's no one around to catch them.


You used the possibility of an attack by the British as a reason for Americans to bear arms in the 18th century; my point is that the British aren't the only possible source of attack.

The right to bare arms was originally created to protect Americans from our own government. :shrug: We had just come out of a war in which our former masters used military force to try to subjugate us. They wanted a deterrent to keep the same thing from happening with our own government.


Most of the firearms I own are family heirlooms passed down from generation to generation.

I have a MP40 and a lugar that that my grandfather took off of dead Nazis.


Like I said I don't mind having guns for hunting as long as it's done humanly and the animal is actually used for food.

Treated like humans? :p


But because guns are so prevalent in the first place, it's easier to get your hands on them.

The question is whether people are going to do something about it, instead of putting up defences and said that criminals would get them anyway. A lot of people who use guns haven't offended or been a criminal until they've actually shot 10, 20 in a mall.

It's true, though, criminals would get them anyway. I mean, they're criminals, why would they be concerned with the law? :p Someone who wants to massacre people in a mall with a gun will be able to get one. The government tried to ban alcohol and failed. They tried to ban drugs and failed. The tried to ban prostitution and failed. Firearms would be no different. If someone wants something bad enough, they'll find a way to get it.

bad_angel_109
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:42 PM
:speakles: wtf is up with all these shootings and crap? its all crazy shit. like i said before in the other thread, if ur gonna kill urself DONT take others with u. coz thats a fucken selfish thing to do :fiery:

Solitaire
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:45 PM
Have you been robbed? Did you catch the person in there? Did he try to rape you? Did he threaten your life? If any of those things happened, you might be singing a different tune.

When I lived in the country, our house was broken into three times in four years. It hsn't happened once since we have lived in the city. Isolated areas are perfect targets for criminals because there's no one around to catch them.

Treated like humans? :p


Lot's of what if's there I try not to live by those. Many people get raped, assaulted, and their homes broken into but still don't feel the need to get a gun.

And I was rasied in a rural area one road town we didn't have one break in nor new anyone who did. Since living in an urban area a few of my neighbors have been robbed, still no guns. Experiences differ but there's a reason why crime rates are higher in cities.

And yes humanely treated with some respect for their life.

brickhousesupporter
Apr 8th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Republicans need to do something about this quick......They are losing their constituency.

saint2
Apr 8th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Thos "anti gunners" haven't answer simple question- Why someone else (government) hav to decide what I am alowed to own and what Im not ? Who gave it thos rights ? Can anyone (anyone!) answer...

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Hmm... Do people need jobs? Duh, right? Well, people often need cars to get to their jobs, especially somewhere like L.A., where the public transportation system may as well not exist. And that cocaine analogy is ridiculous. If cocaine was legal, it WOULD be a whole lot more available. And finally, hunting sucks.A. Cars are a convenience, not a necessity. B. Cocaine is available to anyone who is motivated to buy it. B. Then don't hunt.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 02:16 PM
Didn't intend to... What I was trying to say is that NRA brainwashed you.In that case, you either didn't read my posts or you lack the capacity to comprehend them.....and I don't intend to insult you either.

Infiniti2001
Apr 8th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Yeah, apparently China does a great job with the gun issue. The government may issue you a uniform and a gun to use against your own citizens but otherwise you are prohibited from owning one? I'm pretty happy with the way our founding fathers handled the "gun issue", thank you.

Enough said :cool:

Halardfan
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:11 PM
Very true. Another great example Moore gave was television news coverage. He compared American television news with Canadian, and the difference was thought provoking. While Canadian news reported largely on world, national and local politics, American news constantly throws murder, rape and other crimes in our faces. Even our news is violent.

The heart of the matter is this, America has notably more of a problem with gun violence than comparable western countries, the question is why. I dont think it random, something is happening.

My theory is that its due to several factors, the media as you mention could be one of those. My suggestion is simply that the right to bear arms is another contributory factor, not the only one. Its a complex formula, which is why as you say Canada has much less of a problem than America despite having plenty of guns.

fufuqifuqishahah
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:16 PM
This isn't an issue of guns (though I think they should be eliminated from the planet), it's an issue of society, the problems that these people are facing, etc.

Though less likely, who isn't to say they wouldn't have died if he didn't have a gun? Guns make the killings easier though... less to think about... you probably think about the process of murder much more if your stabbing someone or pushing them off a cliff.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:19 PM
The heart of the matter is this, America has notably more of a problem with gun violence than comparable western countries, the question is why. I dont think it random, something is happening.

My theory is that its due to several factors, the media as you mention could be one of those. My suggestion is simply that the right to bear arms is another contributory factor, not the only one. Its a complex formula, which is why as you say Canada has much less of a problem than America despite having plenty of guns.America has a problem with violence in general. If we're going to try to address it, I don't think tinkering with the Bill of Rights is the place to start. For one thing, it's never going to happen. The Bill of Rights are widely regarded as sacred and indelible; the corner stone of our liberty. It's unthinkable that the Constitution will ever be amended to alter the Bill of Rights.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:24 PM
This isn't an issue of guns (though I think they should be eliminated from the planet), it's an issue of society, the problems that these people are facing, etc.

Though less likely, who isn't to say they wouldn't have died if he didn't have a gun? Guns make the killings easier though... less to think about... you probably think about the process of murder much more if your stabbing someone or pushing them off a cliff.You are correct, it would be nice if guns could be eliminated from the planet. But that isn't going to happen, nor are the things going to occur necessary to change the Bill of Rights in the U.S. So, how about looking at doing things that are possible, like putting people who commit crimes with firearms behind bars for a long, long time. I'm a strong advocate of reducing our prison population, in part to keep prison beds available for violent criminals.

saint2
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:28 PM
This isn't an issue of guns (though I think they should be eliminated from the planet), it's an issue of society, the problems that these people are facing, etc.

No, it isn't issue of society, its issue of fundamental individual rights.

I'll repeat my question: Why someone else (government) hav to decide what I am alowed to own and what Im not ? Who gave it thos rights ? Can anyone (anyone!) answer...

Of course it would be the best if guns would not exist at all, but how U gonna do this? Turn back time and prevent guys who invented firearms before do this ? Or maybe restrict individual freedom by governmental regulations? Treat everyone as a potential murderer ? In the name of what ? Safe society ? Yes, pigs on farm are also "safe" if owner "cares" about them. But we're not pigs. We are human beings.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:34 PM
Alright people, we're never going to agree on guns so let's change the subject to something we can all agree on like.....abortion.

Halardfan
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:39 PM
America has a problem with violence in general. If we're going to try to address it, I don't think tinkering with the Bill of Rights is the place to start. For one thing, it's never going to happen. The Bill of Rights are widely regarded as sacred and indelible; the corner stone of our liberty. It's unthinkable that the Constitution will ever be amended to alter the Bill of Rights.

I agree that it wont happen, though I argue that it should.

America's founding fathers had some ideas that were good and profound and noble, that played an important part in western democracy as we know it today. But they were men like anyone else and were capable of making mistakes, or at least shaping laws that may have been appropriate then but whose time has passed. For me, the right to bear arms is one such mistake.

Again, I dont want to come across as lazily anti-American, in many ways America is a great, inspirational country, and the vast majority of Americans Ive come across down the years have been warm and friendly people, full of an optimism that most of us cynical Europeans lost a long time ago.

Its just being brought up without the notion of a “Right to bear arms” its difficult to grasp such a notion and its sacred place in American society. Just as it might be difficult for many Americans to imagine an America without it.

Halardfan
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:42 PM
No, it isn't issue of society, its issue of fundamental individual rights.

I'll repeat my question: Why someone else (government) hav to decide what I am alowed to own and what Im not ? Who gave it thos rights ? Can anyone (anyone!) answer...

Of course it would be the best if guns would not exist at all, but how U gonna do this? Turn back time and prevent guys who invented firearms before do this ? Or maybe restrict individual freedom by governmental regulations? Treat everyone as a potential murderer ? In the name of what ? Safe society ? Yes, pigs on farm are also "safe" if owner "cares" about them. But we're not pigs. We are human beings.

Every society makes those decisions, there are any number of things which society deems its illegal to do. No nation offers absolute freedom to do what you wish, nor would that be desirable.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:45 PM
I have a MP40 and a lugar that that my grandfather took off of dead Nazis.

That's cool, it's not only a family heirloom but a piece of history as well. I have my grandfather's shotgun, a Remington model 11-48. It's older than I am, and I'm no spring chicken. Someday, it will belong to one of my sons.

saint2
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:47 PM
Every society makes those decisions, there are any number of things which society deems its illegal to do. No nation offers absolute freedom to do what you wish, nor would that be desirable.

Then show me thos society, let me talk with him/her maybe I'll convince society to my points. I've never seen any society, never talk with society, so please don't create abstract figures...

clementine
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:51 PM
No thread?

Deadly court shooting in Germany

The shooting occured while an inheritance case was being heard.

At least two people have been killed and several others injured in a shooting in a courthouse in Germany.

Police said that several shots were fired during the incident at the administrative court in the town of Landshut in Bavaria, about 450km south of the capital, Berlin.

The attacker is believed to have shot himself after killing a woman.

Elisabeth Waitzinger, a court spokeswoman, said the 60-year-old gunman and his victim were related.

The shooting occured at about 1015 (0815 GMT) while an inheritance case was being heard.

Armed officers were called in to secure the area around the courthouse.

There was no immediate information on the gunman's identity or a possible motive.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7987236.stm

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Its just being brought up without the notion of a “Right to bear arms” its difficult to grasp such a notion and its sacred place in American society. Just as it might be difficult for many Americans to imagine an America without it.I believe you hit the nail on the head. Very well put indeed! Although in America, with greater numbers living in urban settings and more families in which hunting and firearms are not part of their lives and family traditions, there are many Americans with your point of view. America's attitude toward firearms is likely to evolve and change, but I can't foresee the day when Americans, in the numbers necessary do do so, would support stripping anything from the Bill of Rights.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Every society makes those decisions, there are any number of things which society deems its illegal to do. No nation offers absolute freedom to do what you wish, nor would that be desirable.You are absolutely correct. Nor does America offer absolute freedom to bear arms. No person convicted of a felony or diagnosed with a major mental illness may own or possess firearms, nor may any person possess fully automatic firearms. Anytime I've purchased a firearm, I'm subjected to a backround check and waiting period. I can't just get pissed-off and go buy a gun.

A total ban on guns in America? Even if it could be legislated, how would it be inforced? The BTAF can't just search people's homes and people aren't likely to just offer their guns up for the taking. Can you imagine the spectacle? "Grandpa, there's a man from the BTAF at the door. He wants all your guns. Yeah, I know they were your father's and his father's too, but it seems your trap shooting and deer hunting days are over."

Scotso
Apr 8th, 2009, 05:16 PM
That's cool, it's not only a family heirloom but a piece of history as well. I have my grandfather's shotgun, a Remington model 11-48. It's older than I am, and I'm no spring chicken. Someday, it will belong to one of my sons.

Does it still work?

I love old guns (and before someone attacks me, I don't have ammunition for any of them), especially when they're tied to major events in history. Warfare is pretty much the one constant of human civilization, so weapons are a big part of history.

My uncle also has one of the old style Colt revolvers that belonged to my family eons ago, which I should get when he kicks the bucket. It's beautiful, gold plated and has been sealed in a glass container for a looooong time, so it looks completely new. I think it's from the late 1800s, but it could be early 1900s. I don't remember. I also have a lot of medals and one of the millions of French flags that were flown all over Paris after it was liberated. I'm not a materialist person and don't care about "stuff," so these are definitely my most prized possessions and probably the only think I would run to save if my house was on fire. Aside from Mr. Kitty, that is.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Does it still work?

I love old guns (and before someone attacks me, I don't have ammunition for any of them), especially when they're tied to major events in history. Warfare is pretty much the one constant of human civilization, so weapons are a big part of history.

My uncle also has one of the old style Colt revolvers that belonged to my family eons ago, which I should get when he kicks the bucket. It's beautiful, gold plated and has been sealed in a glass container for a looooong time, so it looks completely new. I think it's from the late 1800s, but it could be early 1900s. I don't remember. I also have a lot of medals and one of the millions of French flags that were flown all over Paris after it was liberated. I'm not a materialist person and don't care about "stuff," so these are definitely my most prized possessions and probably the only think I would run to save if my house was on fire. Aside from Mr. Kitty, that is.Oh yeah, you've gotta save Mr. Kitty. I'd do the same for Dave the dog. Grandpa's shotgun works great, it's a 1954 model that I've had for about 20 years and never had any trouble with as long as I don't use Winchester ammunition. I've never used it to hunt, I don't hunt game birds or waterfowl, I just use it to shoot sporting clays. It's a really nicely balanced, comfortable gun to shoot. My son has an old Ithaca 20 gauge that he got from his great-uncle that kicks like a mule compared to it.
Hang on to your family antiques if you can, they'll only grow in value to you. They sound awesome.

RFSTB
Apr 8th, 2009, 06:48 PM
The right to bear arms, just like the right to free speech, is not unlimited.

So where do you draw the limit?

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 07:24 PM
So where do you draw the limit?There are lots of limits. Many have already been mentioned in this thread; you can't have guns if you're a convicted felon or have been diagnosed with a serious mental illness, you can't own a machine gun, you can't have rocket launchers, bazookas, nukes. etc. There are laws restricting how firearms are transported & concealed, there are mandatory waiting periods for purchasing firearms, the list goes on and on.

miffedmax
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:13 PM
I personally have never understood how, in the minds of some, "licensing" and "registering" firearms is the same thing as banning them.

I do think a cohesive, national policy would be nice, since everything we have now is a patchwork. But I wouldn't support a total ban.

meyerpl
Apr 8th, 2009, 08:23 PM
I personally have never understood how, in the minds of some, "licensing" and "registering" firearms is the same thing as banning them.

I do think a cohesive, national policy would be nice, since everything we have now is a patchwork. But I wouldn't support a total ban.I would have no problem with gun registration any more than I do with registering my car or dog or these two hands of mine that are registered weapons. (I'm joking, my hands were made for loving, not fighting. Well, one of them was anyway.) In fact, it may assist law enforcement in identifying and recovering my firearms if they're ever stolen.

Williamsser
Apr 8th, 2009, 09:02 PM
In 1992, during the LA riots, police refused to enter Koreatown. The Korean merchants were forced protect their properties with guns. Today, the Korean merchants who used guns have properties that are still standing today, while those without guns had their properties burned down.

BKTw-UHalZc

Scotso
Apr 10th, 2009, 02:22 AM
So where do you draw the limit?

Nuclear weapons. :p

barboza
Apr 10th, 2009, 02:37 PM
So,what does a gun mean for an ordinary people?Does every American people want a gun?

I am very much curious about the "gun culture:eek:" in USA.Could you please tell me more?Thank you:)

Omg, you're like totally retarded. Of course not every American wants to own a gun. What a stupid question. It's like asking if every Chinese eat Lo Mein every day for the rest of his or her a life.