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View Full Version : Something interesting about the Williams sisters H2H


Sam L
Feb 20th, 2009, 09:54 AM
You can divide this rivalry into two halves. Pre-2004 and post-2004.

Before 2004 was a story of Venus leading the H2H early but Serena catching up and then completely dominating. Serena led this 7-5 including winning the last 6 matches. That culminated with the 2003 Wimbledon final. That was the end of an era.

Post 2004, Venus leads the H2H 4-2. I find that really interesting. If she wins this Dubai match, she'll have 5-2, that's a pretty big lead. As far as grand slam success is concerned during that whole time Serena has 4 grand slams and Venus has 3 Wimbledons. So fairly close but the H2H are in Venus's favour so far.

I just thought it was really interesting how you could divide this rivalry in half. It'll be really interesting to see who wins.

tennnisfannn
Feb 20th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Theirs is probably the most underrated rivalry in any sport.

ElusiveChanteuse
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Theirs is probably the most underrated rivalry in any sport.

due to family decision?:shrug:

OsloErik
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:12 AM
Theirs is probably the most underrated rivalry in any sport.

True on some levels, but it's also a hard rivalry to get behind. Most of their matches are fairly flat. There are a few gems, but a lot of them are just uncomfortable. Add to it that the fan base of both players tends to overlap much more than even Agassi-Sampras or Connors-Borg or Evert-Navratilova or any other rivalry I can think of. A lot of people tune in to watch it, but how many of those people are die-hard supporters of one sister and not the other? What %? I'd guess maybe 5 or 10 % have an opinion and the rest watch because it's two superstars and they play tennis well.

Wojtek
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Theirs is probably the most underrated rivalry in any sport.

Their matches aren't so good. Graf- Seles, Graf-ASV, Navratilova- Evert were much better.

Even Hingis-Venus or Serena- Capriati were much better

MaBaker
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Interesting indeed.

Nickk
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:33 AM
Before 2004, Serena led 7-5, though, not 7-4.:wavey:

volta
Feb 20th, 2009, 10:37 AM
i think the main prob with their rivalry was that they had that "it's my sister on the other side of net" thing going on, imo they got over it now (mainly cuz they realised that they dont have much more time on tour) and just want to really fight point by point and that's why her latest matches have been pretty good (USOPEN , Bangalore etc..)

court70
Feb 20th, 2009, 12:14 PM
You can divide this rivalry into two halves. Pre-2004 and post-2004.

Before 2004 was a story of Venus leading the H2H early but Serena catching up and then completely dominating. Serena led this 7-4 including winning the last 6 matches. That culminated with the 2003 Wimbledon final. That was the end of an era.

Post 2004, Venus leads the H2H 4-2. I find that really interesting. If she wins this Dubai match, she'll have 5-2, that's a pretty big lead. As far as grand slam success is concerned during that whole time Serena has 4 grand slams and Venus has 3 Wimbledons. So fairly close but the H2H are in Venus's favour so far.

I just thought it was really interesting how you could divide this rivalry in half. It'll be really interesting to see who wins.

There's is what I call a rivalry not that crap that people keep bringing up about serena and maria's rivalry there's no rivalry between those two. Lindsay, vee and ree were rivals Hingis, vee and serena were rivals...

bandabou
Feb 20th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Agreed..their matches are getting more intense.

vwfan
Feb 20th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Actually there are really three phases:
pre 2002 Venus dominated (Venus led 5-1)
2002-2003 Serena dominated (Serena 6-0, five of which were slam finals)
post 2003 pretty evenly matched and much more competitive, with slight Venus advantage (4-2).

So far, Serena still has the better part of the rivalry with a 5-2 lead in h2h in Grand Slam finals.:mad:

Beny
Feb 20th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Their matches in past 2002 etc were utterly boring.

On the other hand, the Wimbledon final (08) and US Open semi(08) was the best that women's tennis can produce.


Didn't see the Lena-Venus match but most people said Venus played great. Saw Serena yesterday-played enormously well,stunning.

If they keep this form and play the same tennis today, it can be one of the best matches all time, why not? Both play so well these days

bjurra
Feb 20th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Not a single comment so far that several of their past matches had a predecided winner?

I have no idea myself but I have heard many people (including some people close to the tour) claiming that.

Miss Amor
Feb 20th, 2009, 02:18 PM
Not a single comment so far that several of their past matches had a predecided winner?

I have no idea myself but I have heard many people (including some people close to the tour) claiming that.

Venus must've been really dumb then as she agreed to lose 4 Grandslam finals in a row to Serena :confused:

bjurra
Feb 20th, 2009, 02:21 PM
Venus must've been really dumb then as she agreed to lose 4 Grandslam finals in a row to Serena :confused:

Hehe, my post read "several of their matches", not "every single one".

vwfan
Feb 20th, 2009, 02:29 PM
Venus must've been really dumb then as she agreed to lose 4 Grandslam finals in a row to Serena :confused:exactly.:tape:

Vlover
Feb 20th, 2009, 02:38 PM
True on some levels, but it's also a hard rivalry to get behind. Most of their matches are fairly flat. There are a few gems, but a lot of them are just uncomfortable. Add to it that the fan base of both players tends to overlap much more than even Agassi-Sampras or Connors-Borg or Evert-Navratilova or any other rivalry I can think of. A lot of people tune in to watch it, but how many of those people are die-hard supporters of one sister and not the other? What %? I'd guess maybe 5 or 10 % have an opinion and the rest watch because it's two superstars and they play tennis well.
You can understand why this is so different is due not only to the blood connection but more importantly the emotional connection of Venus and Serena. They both had to work through their conflicts of individual interests publicly with millions watching. No other siblings have had to do this in such a public way on such a big stage before therefore I think it is remarkable that they have done this without compromising their close bond which I think is more important to them than the titles.

spartanfan
Feb 20th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Theirs is probably the most underrated rivalry in any sport.
Agreed, well put.

rjd1111
Feb 20th, 2009, 07:04 PM
You can divide this rivalry into two halves. Pre-2004 and post-2004.

Before 2004 was a story of Venus leading the H2H early but Serena catching up and then completely dominating. Serena led this 7-4 including winning the last 6 matches. That culminated with the 2003 Wimbledon final. That was the end of an era.

Post 2004, Venus leads the H2H 4-2. I find that really interesting. If she wins this Dubai match, she'll have 5-2, that's a pretty big lead. As far as grand slam success is concerned during that whole time Serena has 4 grand slams and Venus has 3 Wimbledons. So fairly close but the H2H are in Venus's favour so far.

I just thought it was really interesting how you could divide this rivalry in half. It'll be really interesting to see who wins.

Am I wrong. You seem to be missing one. they have played 19 times.

I think your 1st number should be 7-5.

treufreund
Feb 20th, 2009, 08:40 PM
According to the official Sony Ericsson Website, the two sisters were tied at 9-9 in their head to head before today. Today with a 7-6 win in the third set, VENUS moves ahead 10-9. :woohoo:

Serenita
Feb 20th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Venus must've been really dumb then as she agreed to lose 4 Grandslam finals in a row to Serena :confused:
:worship:

Sam L
Feb 21st, 2009, 01:09 AM
Am I wrong. You seem to be missing one. they have played 19 times.

I think your 1st number should be 7-5.
Yes, sorry. Corrected.

Venus now leads 5-2 since 2004. If she can win the French Open and Wimbledon that'll really shake things up. :)

OsloErik
Feb 21st, 2009, 04:35 AM
You can understand why this is so different is due not only to the blood connection but more importantly the emotional connection of Venus and Serena. They both had to work through their conflicts of individual interests publicly with millions watching. No other siblings have had to do this in such a public way on such a big stage before therefore I think it is remarkable that they have done this without compromising their close bond which I think is more important to them than the titles.

While I completely agree and sympathize with how difficult their match-up must be for them, I still maintain that it remains rocky viewing. Some matchups are almost guaranteed to be blockbusters (Serena-Capriati, Venus-Davenport jump to mind) and make for good viewing, but with the sisters...it's a grab-bag. You just don't know if it will be an uneven error-fest (Roland Garros '02, for example) or a show-stopper (US Open '08). And it's hard to get excited about something when you've got a pretty good shot of witnessing a poor quality match, regardless of the cause. On a mass-viewership level, of course. I think anyone with any sort of concern for tennis and the personality component finds the matches fascinating for the contrasts between the two, even when the match is ugly (RG '02).

tennnisfannn
Feb 21st, 2009, 04:53 AM
While I completely agree and sympathize with how difficult their match-up must be for them, I still maintain that it remains rocky viewing. Some matchups are almost guaranteed to be blockbusters (Serena-Capriati, Venus-Davenport jump to mind) and make for good viewing, but with the sisters...it's a grab-bag. You just don't know if it will be an uneven error-fest (Roland Garros '02, for example) or a show-stopper (US Open '08). And it's hard to get excited about something when you've got a pretty good shot of witnessing a poor quality match, regardless of the cause. On a mass-viewership level, of course. I think anyone with any sort of concern for tennis and the personality component finds the matches fascinating for the contrasts between the two, even when the match is ugly (RG '02).
It is so easy to pick on RG 02 when there are no gurantees there will be blockbusters even aginst their best/worst nimesis, Capriati matches were good against rena but we also ahve forgotten the 6/1 6/1 loss to serena at wimby 04, even venus hingis had great heights but also had the 6/1 6/1 drubbing by Hingis ao 01. You have have to look at the whole picture. Federe nadal had the pitiful FO 08 and a fantastic wimby 3 weeks later.

Brooks.
Feb 21st, 2009, 05:21 AM
Serena doesn't really have the chance to play Venus at the slams or Miami(where she plays her best tennis) b/c Venus usually loses early everywhere except Wimbledon.:shrug:

OsloErik
Feb 21st, 2009, 06:44 AM
It is so easy to pick on RG 02 when there are no gurantees there will be blockbusters even aginst their best/worst nimesis, Capriati matches were good against rena but we also ahve forgotten the 6/1 6/1 loss to serena at wimby 04, even venus hingis had great heights but also had the 6/1 6/1 drubbing by Hingis ao 01. You have have to look at the whole picture. Federe nadal had the pitiful FO 08 and a fantastic wimby 3 weeks later.

I can only think of four Venus-Serena matches that I'd like to look at again, and that's after reviewing their complete head to head twice. That's a pretty small number seeing how many times they've played. I can think of half a dozen Hingis-Venus matches off the top of my head that were good enough to watch again. I'm not saying that all their matches were crap (or that all the Serena-Capriati matches were GOAT matches, or what have you) but I do think that they have a disproportionate number of mediocre matches considering they are two of the best players of the past 30 years, and even if they are sisters and the drama factor increases (and thus the ratings), it's very hard to get excited about the quality of their match ups. You can be hopeful, but I have trouble getting pumped up for it.

AnywhereButHome
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:50 AM
Venus2005/06/07/08/09 >>>>>>> Serena/05/06/07/08/09

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2009, 08:58 AM
Yep..the surgery took more off Serena: movement just isn't there anymore.

vwfan
Feb 21st, 2009, 02:10 PM
Serena doesn't really have the chance to play Venus at the slams or Miami(where she plays her best tennis) b/c Venus usually loses early everywhere except Wimbledon.:shrug:hmmmm Miami 2005 QF comes to mind! Venus defeats Serena 6-1, 7-6 when she was the defending Australian Open Champion.

let's see, oh yeah U.S. Open 2005 Venus defeats Serena 4th round in two sets.

Serena is devastating at the Aus Open, but the U.S. Open is the only other Grand Slam she has won since 2004 and we don't need to re-live the QF match there.

If you're going to be nasty and bitter ReeReeFan, at least be accurate.

Some of you guys are just:help: over the match yesterday. They have played 19 times and Serena has had her fair share of wins along the way and perhaps the most important ones.

Yet a few of you "so-called" Williams fans are upset about a match that was incredibly close, could have easily gone either way, and are even hoping Venus loses today. :confused:

That's just wrong.

spencercarlos
Feb 21st, 2009, 02:25 PM
Venus2005/06/07/08/09 >>>>>>> Serena/05/06/07/08/09
4 Slams > 3 Slams
5 Slam finals > 3 slam finals
#1 ranking vs not even top 5 :lol: This is ridiculous.

:wavey:

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2009, 03:54 PM
Just makes you think...against Serena Vee can come up with all those clutch aces, but she loses tamely to some Suarez Navarro??!! :help: :confused:

AcesHigh
Feb 21st, 2009, 03:56 PM
Can people stop bringing up the AO match? :confused: Matchups matter! :lol: Carla played lights out tennis that day and her tennis was a baaaad matchup for Vee. End of story. Venus lost, let's move on and stop comparing every win or loss to it.

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2009, 04:15 PM
No, it's just curious...since 2003 or 2004, Venus has a pretty convincing 5-2 h2h lead against Serena...but has losing h2h against Davenport, Kim, Jankovic (even on grass! :help:), Penetta?!!!,...just mind-boggling.

vwfan
Feb 21st, 2009, 06:46 PM
No, it's just curious...since 2003 or 2004, Venus has a pretty convincing 5-2 h2h lead against Serena...but has losing h2h against Davenport, Kim, Jankovic (even on grass! :help:), Penetta?!!!,...just mind-boggling.she played better than Serena 5/7 of the times they've met! :shrug: That's all.

She beat Davenport when it mattered most ;) and Pennetta too in a final.

JJ is a bad matchup for her, even when she is playing well and on grass. But I suspect that h2h will be changing too. At least, I hope.

Anyway, let it go. Serena will have another chance to even the h2h and I suspect she will come ready to die on the court to do it. :lol:

vwfan
Feb 21st, 2009, 06:48 PM
4 Slams > 3 Slams
5 Slam finals > 3 slam finals
#1 ranking vs not even top 5 :lol: This is ridiculous.

:wavey:
hey nutjob. the thread is about h2h, so 5 > 2.

starin
Feb 21st, 2009, 06:51 PM
yeah I don't think it's fair to count Venus' wins over unfit and uninterested Serena of 2005. That was right before she took a long break from tennis. I would say only look at their H2H post 2006 when both made comebacks. So Venus lead Serena 3-2 which means imo they're pretty even atm.

The Dawntreader
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:00 PM
yeah I don't think it's fair to count Venus' wins over unfit and uninterested Serena of 2005. That was right before she took a long break from tennis. I would say only look at their H2H post 2006 when both made comebacks. So Venus lead Serena 3-2 which means imo they're pretty even atm.

:rolleyes:

Venus3000
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:18 PM
yeah I don't think it's fair to count Venus' wins over unfit and uninterested Serena of 2005. That was right before she took a long break from tennis. I would say only look at their H2H post 2006 when both made comebacks. So Venus lead Serena 3-2 which means imo they're pretty even atm.

Ok. Should we not count Serena wins over Venus in Win Final 02(shoulder injury) or Win Final 03(torn ab). I'm sure Venus would glady trade those two wins in 2005 for the two wins in the wim finals.

starin
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:26 PM
Ok. Should we not count Serena wins over Venus in Win Final 02(shoulder injury) or Win Final 03(torn ab). I'm sure Venus would glady trade those two wins in 2005 for the two wins in the wim finals.

No. my point is posters are trying to take Venus and Serena's H2H since 2005 of 5-2 and make something significant out of it. I'm just saying those wins over Serena in 2005 hardly have any bearing on the matchup now in 2009. If you're going to include 2005 why not include they're whole H2H. IMO Serena and Venus had one career from 97/98-2005. After 2003 they completely declined from injury and family tragedy, until 2006 where they barely played and fell off the map. 2007 was a reboot for them w/ both making it back in the top 10 after falling out of the top 50. Their H2H from 2007 when both made comebacks is 3-2 for Venus, let's top this 5-2 nonsense, it's a nice stat but it's a misleading one.

sweetpeas
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:29 PM
Venus must've been really dumb then as she agreed to lose 4 Grandslam finals in a row to Serena


Right! That's some mean love!:lol::wavey:

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:33 PM
she played better than Serena 5/7 of the times they've met! :shrug: That's all.

She beat Davenport when it mattered most ;) and Pennetta too in a final.

JJ is a bad matchup for her, even when she is playing well and on grass. But I suspect that h2h will be changing too. At least, I hope.

Anyway, let it go. Serena will have another chance to even the h2h and I suspect she will come ready to die on the court to do it. :lol:

U think soo?? :lol: ;)

Venus3000
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:40 PM
No. my point is posters are trying to take Venus and Serena's H2H since 2005 of 5-2 and make something significant out of it. I'm just saying those wins over Serena in 2005 hardly have any bearing on the matchup now in 2009. If you're going to include 2005 why not include they're whole H2H. IMO Serena and Venus had one career from 97/98-2005. After 2003 they completely declined from injury and family tragedy, until 2006 where they barely played and fell off the map. 2007 was a reboot for them w/ both making it back in the top 10 after falling out of the top 50. Their H2H from 2007 when both made comebacks is 3-2 for Venus, let's top this 5-2 nonsense, it's a nice stat but it's a misleading one.

No it's actually 5-2, all matches count.

But I agree that for all matches one has to look at the circumastances which why I've always said the people who say Serena is better than Venus on grass just because she leads 2-1 in wim. finals are silly. Well Venus did play injured in the finals she lost. But that doesn't change the fact Serena still leads 2-1 in wim. finals.

If we were to look at it the way you are looking at it, we would have to basically throw out half the matches played on the wta tour including alot of Venus losses post 2003 and as much as I would like to do that you can't do it.

AcesHigh
Feb 21st, 2009, 07:58 PM
No. my point is posters are trying to take Venus and Serena's H2H since 2005 of 5-2 and make something significant out of it. I'm just saying those wins over Serena in 2005 hardly have any bearing on the matchup now in 2009. If you're going to include 2005 why not include they're whole H2H. IMO Serena and Venus had one career from 97/98-2005. After 2003 they completely declined from injury and family tragedy, until 2006 where they barely played and fell off the map. 2007 was a reboot for them w/ both making it back in the top 10 after falling out of the top 50. Their H2H from 2007 when both made comebacks is 3-2 for Venus, let's top this 5-2 nonsense, it's a nice stat but it's a misleading one.

It makes sense to include 2004 onwards because they both had a return b/c of a long layoff. It's Serena's fault if she was out of shape and Serena at 2005 Miami was the same Serena who won AO that year so I dont see why it's a big deal. Their h2h has 3 phases like people have said. 1998-2001 where Venus was the better player for most of that time, 2002-2003 where Serena was untouchable and post-2003 where Serena's fitness has been an issue and Venus has been the fitter player but mentally weak and stuck in a slow process of finding her game again.

vwfan
Feb 21st, 2009, 09:48 PM
U think soo?? :lol: ;)Yep I do.

Can you envision Henin v. Capriati U.S. Open semi-final. Well, Henin will have nothing on Serena in her next match against Venus.

For Venus' safety I hope it is NOT a grandslam final to boot!:devil:

PizzaMan
Feb 21st, 2009, 10:15 PM
4 Slams > 3 Slams
5 Slam finals > 3 slam finals
#1 ranking vs not even top 5 :lol: This is ridiculous.

:wavey:

Depends on one's perspective. Casual fans regard Wimby as more important than anything else, and regard AO as the least important of the slams (if they even know that it exists). I think a casual fan might very well take 3 Wimbys over 3 AOs and 1 USO.

Hard core fans might be more in line with your thinking.

As far as H2H is concerned, is it the case that since 2004 Serena can only beat Venus if Venus chokes? Venus should've won their 2008 USO match. I don't recall what happened in Serena's other win, as to whether she really won it or Venus lost it.

As someone posted yesterday, Serena's greater success and higher ranking in recent years is because Serena plays other players better than Venus plays them. But H2H, Venus has the edge in recent years. But the edge is tiny; some of those matches could've gone either way.

bandabou
Feb 21st, 2009, 10:45 PM
Not if you already have 2 wimbledons by beating Venus in the finals..then winning on multiple surfaces becomes the greater feat.