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View Full Version : Active Top-Players W/L Records at Premier/Tier II+ events


AnnaK_4ever
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:32 PM
Only currently active players who've been ranked in top-10 listed (with the exception of Kimiko Date and Alicia Molik)


OVERALL PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


S WILLIAMS .829 427-88
J HENIN .819 363-80
K CLIJSTERS .791 326-86
V WILLIAMS .788 482-130
M SHARAPOVA .786 242-66
A MAURESMO .722 426-164
S KUZNETSOVA .696 293-128
A IVANOVIC .692 164-73
C WOZNIACKI .675 83-40
E DEMENTIEVA .658 388-202
D SAFINA .653 213-113
A RADWANSKA .645 107-59
V AZARENKA .643 90-50
J JANKOVIC .633 236-137
N PETROVA .629 288-170
V ZVONAREVA .617 206-128
N VAIDISOVA .615 104-65
D HANTUCHOVA .583 257-184
J DOKIC .581 162-117
A CHAKVETADZE .577 131-96
P SCHNYDER .577 346-254
F PENNETTA .542 103-87
M BARTOLI .540 149-127


OUTDOOR HARDCOURTS PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


S WILLIAMS .858 253-42
J HENIN .823 167-36
K CLIJSTERS .806 179-43
M SHARAPOVA .797 137-35
V WILLIAMS .796 246-63
A MAURESMO .723 172-66
S KUZNETSOVA .708 165-68
E DEMENTIEVA .700 201-86
A IVANOVIC .679 76-36
C WOZNIACKI .671 49-24
A RADWANSKA .658 52-27
V AZARENKA .650 52-28
J JANKOVIC .640 135-76
V ZVONAREVA .634 102-59
N VAIDISOVA .632 55-32
A CHAKVETADZE .620 75-46
D SAFINA .619 96-59
P SCHNYDER .591 136-94
N PETROVA .589 113-79
D HANTUCHOVA .588 127-89
J DOKIC .570 69-52
M BARTOLI .548 86-71
F PENNETTA .544 56-47


CLAYCOURTS PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


J HENIN .872 102-15
K CLIJSTERS .766 49-15
V WILLIAMS .764 107-33
S WILLIAMS .757 78-25
A IVANOVIC .754 43-14
M SHARAPOVA .754 43-14
S KUZNETSOVA .752 79-26
D SAFINA .742 69-24
A MAURESMO .729 105-39
N PETROVA .686 72-33
J JANKOVIC .679 57-27
C WOZNIACKI .667 20-10
E DEMENTIEVA .664 77-39
V ZVONAREVA .662 53-27
P SCHNYDER .622 122-74
V AZARENKA .618 21-13
A RADWANSKA .618 21-13
J DOKIC .597 43-29
N VAIDISOVA .556 15-12
A CHAKVETADZE .553 26-21
D HANTUCHOVA .550 44-36
F PENNETTA .511 23-22
M BARTOLI .439 18-23


GRASSCOURTS PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


S WILLIAMS .877 50-7
V WILLIAMS .867 65-10
J HENIN .833 35-7
M SHARAPOVA .806 25-6
K CLIJSTERS .778 28-8
A RADWANSKA .769 20-6
C WOZNIACKI .765 13-4
A MAURESMO .727 40-15
N PETROVA .721 31-12
A IVANOVIC .714 15-6
S KUZNETSOVA .711 27-11
E DEMENTIEVA .690 29-13
M BARTOLI .667 24-12
N VAIDISOVA .652 15-8
D HANTUCHOVA .650 26-14
J DOKIC .630 17-10
V AZARENKA .615 8-5
J JANKOVIC .611 11-7
D SAFINA .600 12-8
F PENNETTA .588 10-7
V ZVONAREVA .577 15-11
A CHAKVETADZE .529 9-8
P SCHNYDER .400 10-15


INDOOR CARPET/HARDCOURTS PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


K CLIJSTERS .778 70-20
M SHARAPOVA .771 37-11
S WILLIAMS .767 46-14
J HENIN .728 59-22
V WILLIAMS .727 64-24
A MAURESMO .712 109-44
A IVANOVIC .638 30-17
D SAFINA .621 36-22
N PETROVA .610 72-46
V AZARENKA .600 9-6
N VAIDISOVA .594 19-13
D HANTUCHOVA .571 60-45
J DOKIC .559 33-26
E DEMENTIEVA .559 81-64
J JANKOVIC .550 33-27
F PENNETTA .538 14-12
V ZVONAREVA .537 36-31
P SCHNYDER .523 78-71
A RADWANSKA .519 14-13
M BARTOLI .500 21-21
A CHAKVETADZE .500 21-21
S KUZNETSOVA .489 22-23
C WOZNIACKI .333 1-2

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:39 PM
This stat suggests that the worst surface of Dementieva is Indoor Carpet/ Hardcourt and her 2 victories in TIER I tournaments were at Tokyo and Moscow

What a paradox Dementieva is

Dodoboy.
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Venus's 2001 clay season :drool: (except RG)

Direwolf
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:55 PM
By looking at the stats...

Hardcourts n Grasscourts are being dominated...
while clay n indoor/carpet are up for grabs

kwilliams
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Go team Williams! (except a little less so on indoor/carpet)

mboyle
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Not surprising. The sisters are the best active players, with Sharapova a pretty close third.

Dave.
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:50 PM
Lindsay :worship:
Lindsay indoors :bowdown: :eek:

These stats reflect Lindsay, Serena and Venus' position as the greatest active players.

sammy01
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:53 PM
jankovics numbers are realy poor. chak realy needs to improve on clay.

Sharapowerr
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:14 PM
Maria is 3th / 4th / 4th and 2 nd and a lot of people compare her with Ana who is 6th/7th/3th and 8th...

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:18 PM
Lindsay :worship:
Lindsay indoors :bowdown: :eek:

These stats reflect Lindsay, Serena and Venus' position as the greatest active players.

Conveniently forgetting a certain someone with a better winning % than Lindsay.

OsloErik
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:19 PM
I assume you're counting red clay and green clay as "clay" without any qualifier attached?

Dave.
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Conveniently forgetting a certain someone with a better winning % than Lindsay.

Well they are the 3 greatest active players and I was saying that the fact they are in the top4/5 of every list here reflects that. Maria's still good though. ;)

Craig.
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:28 PM
Well they are the 3 greatest active players and I was saying that the fact they are in the top4/5 of every list here reflects that. Maria's still good though. ;)


So is Maria...

Not getting your point.

Adal
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Serena, Venus and Maria :worship:

Lindsay... well you're okay too, I guess.

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:32 PM
Well they are the 3 greatest active players and I was saying that the fact they are in the top4/5 of every list here reflects that. Maria's still good though. ;)

No this thread supports the claim that Serena and Venus are the two greatest active players. Lindsay is fourth on this list, so I don't see how that shows that she is part of the 3 greatest active players.:shrug:

Dave.
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:41 PM
No this thread supports the claim that Serena and Venus are the two greatest active players. Lindsay is fourth on this list, so I don't see how that shows that she is part of the 3 greatest active players.:shrug:

Because she is near the top of all surfaces, as are the WS. But Sharapova's numbers also look good, and with a number of years behind her, may surpass Lindsay.

Adal
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Because she is near the top of all surfaces, as are the WS. But Sharapova's numbers also look good, and with a number of years behind her, may surpass Lindsay.
She has already surpassed Lindsay. She has better Clay/Grass records and better overall.
:wavey:

RenaSlam.
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Venus and Serena will beat your fave if it is a Tier 2. :worship:

Mikey B
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:49 PM
nothing unexpected, serena, venus, lindsay and maria are the best active players, full stop! but nice to see the stats so thanks for posting!

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:50 PM
Disclaimer:

I'm not saying that Lindsay isn't one of the three best active players. But there are countless other statistics (money earned, titles won, weeks at #1, etc.) to help support this claim. However, this particular statistic doesn't.

Dave.
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:57 PM
She has already surpassed Lindsay. She has better Clay/Grass records and better overall.
:wavey:

Lindsay has the most wins on the list. :wavey:

Disclaimer:

I'm not saying that Lindsay isn't one of the three best active players. But there are countless other statistics (money earned, titles won, weeks at #1, etc.) to help support this claim. However, this particular statistic doesn't.

I was looking more at no. of wins. Pova's % of wins is great through, so if she keeps that up her place amongst the top will be looking very good.

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:01 PM
Yes, Lindsay is 4th in percentage, but Which one is really better?
I would chose to put her on top because for me 78.4 % of 811 is a lot better than 83.4% of 451(Serena) . Even a mile better than 78.8% of 273(Maria )


S WILLIAMS .834 376-75
V WILLIAMS .796 437-112
M SHARAPOVA .788 215-58
L DAVENPORT .784 636-175
A MAURESMO .729 403-150
A IVANOVIC .715 138-55
S KUZNETSOVA .699 248-107
E DEMENTIEVA .650 334-180
N VAIDISOVA .641 100-56
D SAFINA .637 163-93
N PETROVA .636 255-146
A RADWANSKA .635 61-35
J JANKOVIC .617 187-116
A CHAKVETADZE .605 115-75
V ZVONAREVA .599 163-109
J DOKIC .586 156-110
P SCHNYDER .586 332-235
D HANTUCHOVA .583 225-161
A SUGIYAMA .528 310-277
M BARTOLI .516 112-105

OsloErik
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:01 PM
She has already surpassed Lindsay. She has better Clay/Grass records and better overall.
:wavey:

You're operating under the assumption that she will maintain these rates of win/loss overall. That's optimistic. It's entirely possible that she will, but Lindsay isn't going to change a whole lot from this number (I, personally, don't expect her to play another season). Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality. She had a remarkable two-year stretch (2005-2006) where she was a very, very consistent player, reaching semifinals regularly. But since then, she has three-month patches of success followed by rough form. If that kind of trend keeps up, I'd be surprised if she remains ahead of Davenport on that list, even when she passes Davenport for slam wins overall.

Adal
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:03 PM
You're operating under the assumption that she will maintain these rates of win/loss overall. That's optimistic. It's entirely possible that she will, but Lindsay isn't going to change a whole lot from this number (I, personally, don't expect her to play another season). Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality. She had a remarkable two-year stretch (2005-2006) where she was a very, very consistent player, reaching semifinals regularly. But since then, she has three-month patches of success followed by rough form. If that kind of trend keeps up, I'd be surprised if she remains ahead of Davenport on that list, even when she passes Davenport for slam wins overall.
I'm talking about present, not future :yawn:

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:06 PM
I'm talking about present, not future :yawn:
So do you really believed in your heart that 78.8% of 273 is better than 78.4% of 811?
Dream on!!! .4%??????
811>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>273

MH0861
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:07 PM
The difference between Maria and Lindsay's overall percentage is pretty much 1 or 2 Sharapova losses :lol:

watchdogfish
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:14 PM
If you take into account how long Lindsay's been on tour, those are some pretty impressive stats.

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:17 PM
You're operating under the assumption that she will maintain these rates of win/loss overall. That's optimistic. It's entirely possible that she will, but Lindsay isn't going to change a whole lot from this number (I, personally, don't expect her to play another season). Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality. She had a remarkable two-year stretch (2005-2006) where she was a very, very consistent player, reaching semifinals regularly. But since then, she has three-month patches of success followed by rough form. If that kind of trend keeps up, I'd be surprised if she remains ahead of Davenport on that list, even when she passes Davenport for slam wins overall.

Well, you're assuming that Maria has already passed her peak, which is yet to be seen. Besides, you say that Maria is having trouble maintaining her level, but her winning % this year is the best of her career.

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:19 PM
If you take into account how long Lindsay's been on tour, those are some pretty impressive stats.
exactly- if you stay at 78.4% in 15 years career. Its something Maria could just be inspired to achieved, but for now with not even half of Lindsay's longetivity, she is already sidelined for months. How can you tell me now that she will maintain the .4% above Lindsay playing in the next 10 years?
Lindsay been there, done that!

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Top 4 are really impressive. I'd like to see in which categories Henin would be tops.

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Well, you're assuming that Maria has already passed her peak, which is yet to be seen. Besides, you say that Maria is having trouble maintaining her level, but her winning % this year is the best of her career.
so with this rate of how many matches Maria is playing, she has to play 500++++ more matches to match Lindsay total wins! and we are talking about 0.4% difference in percentage.

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:25 PM
so with this rate of how many matches Maria is playing, she has to play 500++++ more matches to match Lindsay total wins! and we are talking about 0.4% difference in percentage.

What does Maria's rate of play have to do with the difference in matches played unless you're speculating the difference between them will take a long time for Maria to fulfill? Well of course it will. Lindsay Davnenport is the grandma of the tour.
Maria's winning percentage this year is over 10% what Lindsay's is. At this rate, it won't even be a contest...

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:36 PM
What does Maria's rate of play have to do with the difference in matches played unless you're speculating the difference between them will take a long time for Maria to fulfill? Well of course it will. Lindsay Davnenport is the grandma of the tour.
Maria's winning percentage this year is over 10% what Lindsay's is. At this rate, it won't even be a contest...
You still dont get the point. Maria may get higher in percentage later on, yeah, but with how many wins? Top players now a days plays only when they are 100%, compare to Hingis and Lindsay era, where they play even with a cortizone shot at their foot but they still achieved a very good winning percentage.
Thats why for me, the total number of wins should be mattered. I'm sure when Lindsay was on her top of her game, she has higher percentage than maria of this year. Have you heard about Lindsay winning 4 tournaments in 4 weeks?

In The Zone
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:38 PM
I hope people will think twice about dissing Venus' on clay.

She is not dominant, no, but she is in every single match. Putting 7 of those together is tough but very possible.

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:43 PM
I hope people will think twice about dissing Venus' on clay.

She is not dominant, no, but she is in every single match. Putting 7 of those together is tough but very possible.

She's not even coming close to doing that on hardcourts. How could clay be better? Nobody's going to take Venus's achievements away on clay, but she hasn't been a factor for a really long time.

Craig.
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Lindsay has the most wins on the list. :wavey:

'Cause she's played for over 15 years. :rolleyes:

Olórin
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:46 PM
She's not even coming close to doing that on hardcourts. How could clay be better? Nobody's going to take Venus's achievements away on clay, but she hasn't been a factor for a really long time.

Where did he say she was better on clay than hardcourts?

You leave the rational comments to other people and carry on in your own world of fabrication, and incredible defensiveness to the very notion of Venus winning the French :lol:

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 07:54 PM
Where did he say she was better on clay than hardcourts?

You leave the rational comments to other people and carry on in your own world of fabrication, and incredible defensiveness to the very notion of Venus winning the French :lol:

ITZ by mentioning 7 in a row being possible was clearly talking about a major, that being the French. ITZ was also talking about how people put Venus down when it comes to clay. What I was saying is that she has a great list of credentials, but she hasn't been a factor on clay for years. Additionally, I'd look for Venus to become a factor again on hardcourts before I would look for her to potentially win a major on clay.

Now was that so difficult?

(Edited my typos :tape: )

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I assume you're counting red clay and green clay as "clay" without any qualifier attached?

Right.

Olórin
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:04 PM
ITZ by mentioning 7 in a row being possible was clearly talking about a major, that being the French.
Obviously, that was pretty clear in both of our posts.

ITZ was also talking about how people put Venus down when it comes to clay. What I was saying is that she has a great list of credentials, but she hasn't been a factor on clay for years.
A fair comment perhaps, although many would disagree, and you must realise it's merely your opinion that Venus isn't a factor on clay. Her past two clay seasons have been mediocre, it's true, but she's also showed promise in her matches against Jankovic and played some other great matches.

Additionally, I'd look for Venus to become a factor again on hardcourts before I would look for her to potentially win a major on clay.
Well this isn't what you said originally is it. And imo, she is as much a factor in hardcourt slams as any player out there who isn't named Serena. You would need to put together a pretty impressive post before you convinced me Venus isn't a factor in hardcourt slams.

homogenius
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:18 PM
thanks for the stats

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Top 4 are really impressive. I'd like to see in which categories Henin would be tops.

Henin's W-L ratio is .823 (167-36) on outdoor hardcourts -- behind only Serena,
.872 (102-15) on clay courts -- leader with a huge margin,
.833 (35-7) on grass courts -- third behind Venus and Serena,
.728 (59-22) indoors -- fourth behind Lindsay, Maria, and Serena.
Overall, her W-L ratio is .819 (363-80) -- behind only Serena.

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Obviously, that was pretty clear in both of our posts.


A fair comment perhaps, although many would disagree, and you must realise it's merely your opinion that Venus isn't a factor on clay. Her past two clay seasons have been mediocre, it's true, but she's also showed promise in her matches against Jankovic and played some other great matches.


Well this isn't what you said originally is it. And imo, she is as much a factor in hardcourt slams as any player out there who isn't named Serena. You would need to put together a pretty impressive post before you convinced me Venus isn't a factor in hardcourt slams.

You even said yourself Venus has been mediocre on clay. Playing a good match here an there against Jankovic isn't going to win you the French Open. Jankovic herself is only an RG semifinalist.

And since 2004, in hardcourt events tier 2 and up (both indoors and outdoors) Venus has only made it beyond the QF SIX times. That's barely more than once per year.

To put things into perspective, Dinara Safina has made it beyond the QF of hardcourt events tier 2 and up 5 times already in 2008 alone. And just to Add to this statistic:
Ana and Pova: 3 each.
Dementieva and Rena: 4 each
Sveta: 5
Jankovic: 6

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Henin's W-L ratio is .823 (167-36) on outdoor hardcourts -- behind only Serena,
.872 (102-15) on clay courts -- leader with a huge margin,
.833 (35-7) on grass courts -- third behind Venus and Serena,
.728 (59-22) indoors -- fourth behind Lindsay, Maria, and Serena.
Overall, her W-L ratio is .819 (363-80) -- behind only Serena.

Oy.

Olórin
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:35 PM
You even said yourself Venus has been mediocre on clay. Playing a good match here an there against Jankovic isn't going to win you the French Open. Jankovic herself is only an RG semifinalist.

Venus has clearly been very streaky in general for the past 5 years. All ITZ (and now I) are trying to do, is acknowledge that she has the ability to put 7 matches together. It only need happen once. Stranger things have happened, she knows how to get it done and with Henin gone I think the French winners will be quite random over the next few years.


And since 2004, in hardcourt events tier 2 and up (both indoors and outdoors) Venus has only made it beyond the QF SIX times. That's barely more than once per year.
And this get's the prize for most useless stat? Before we see how many finals Venus is averaging a year, let's just remind ourselves that Venus has lost to the eventual champion the past three times she's played the US Open and given them the longest run for their money. Let's also not lose sight of what a major contender she was for the AO this year. I would say her third best title shot behind 2003 and 2002. She is still making these opportunities, and still in a position to win new tournament in the very latest years of her career.


To put things into perspective Thanks for reminding me that Dinara is ranking 5 places higher than Venus due to an outstanding 2008.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:37 PM
Additional numbers : Titles and finals (correct me cause there are surely some errors)

Davenport 26t. 20f.
V.Williams 17t. 11f.
Mauresmo 14t. 12f.
S.Williams 12t. 2f.
Pierce 5t. 11f. :p
Petrova 5t. 5f.
Dementieva 4t. 1f.
Kuzzy 3t. 9f. :o
Sharapova 3t. 1f.
Date 2t. 2f. :p
Chakvetadze 2t. 1f.
Ivanovic/Safina 2t.
Schnyder 1t. 5f.
Hantuchova 1t. 4f.

etc...

Put in perspective the W-L ratio imo.

Those are Tier II titles and finals only.
This thread is about players records at Tier II and above events.

Matt01
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:41 PM
And this get's the prize for most useless stat? Before we see how many finals Venus is averaging a year, let's just remind ourselves that Venus has lost to the eventual champion the past three times she's played the US Open and given them the longest run for their money. Let's also not lose sight of what a major contender she was for the AO this year. I would say her third best title shot behind 2003 and 2002. She is still making these opportunities, and still in a position to win new tournament in the very latest years of her career.


What??? I must have missed that :lol:
That's even more ridiculous than your strange thoughts about Venus winning RG. :p

Olórin
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:42 PM
What??? I must have missed that :lol:


What else is new? ;)

Matt01
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:45 PM
;)

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:50 PM
'Cause she's played for over 15 years. :rolleyes:
but she got 200++ wins more than the second, by playing only a few more years?
also, how many players have 78.4% playing for 15 years?

homogenius
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:50 PM
Those are Tier II titles and finals only.
This thread is about players records at Tier II and above events.

oups my bad :p I'm multitasking...

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:54 PM
And this get's the prize for most useless stat? Before we see how many finals Venus is averaging a year,

How is that a useless stat in a thread discussing winning percentage in tier 2 and above events. In almost 5 years, Venus has only made it beyond the QF 6 times in hardcourt events. Are you trying to argue that she's a factor? :tape: I'm not even counting finals... So venus's SF in Bangalore is her best hardcourt result.
I gave you a pretty long list of ladies whose results dwarf Venus's.

slydevil6142
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:22 PM
How is that a useless stat in a thread discussing winning percentage in tier 2 and above events. In almost 5 years, Venus has only made it beyond the QF 6 times in hardcourt events. Are you trying to argue that she's a factor? :tape: I'm not even counting finals... So venus's SF in Bangalore is her best hardcourt result.
I gave you a pretty long list of ladies whose results dwarf Venus's.

Venus has been inconsistent over the years but lets put your "stat" in context. How many Tier 2 or over events has she even played? 6 Times beyound the Quarters isnt alot but Venus hardly even plays these days. Venus hasnt played a full summer season since 2004 ( where she tradinally use to dominate)..... in 05 she played 1 event... in 06 none..... in 07 one event... and 08 none. In my mind Venus really hasnt played enough during her best time of the year which is hurting her stats more than anything else.

darkchild
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:32 PM
:worship::worship:Lindsay on clay:worship::worship:

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:32 PM
Venus has been inconsistent over the years but lets put your "stat" in context. How many Tier 2 or over events has she even played? 6 Times beyound the Quarters isnt alot but Venus hardly even plays these days. Venus hasnt played a full summer season since 2004 ( where she tradinally use to dominate)..... in 05 she played 1 event... in 06 none..... in 07 one event... and 08 none. In my mind Venus really hasnt played enough during her best time of the year which is hurting her stats more than anything else.

At the end of the day, in 25 tournaments she's played on hard since 2004, tier 2 and up, she's only made the SF 6 times.

Tennisstar86
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:34 PM
who says Venus cant play on clay.....?

young_gunner913
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Lindsay the Carpet Queen? :eek:

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:49 PM
You're operating under the assumption that she will maintain these rates of win/loss overall. That's optimistic. It's entirely possible that she will, but Lindsay isn't going to change a whole lot from this number (I, personally, don't expect her to play another season). Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality. She had a remarkable two-year stretch (2005-2006) where she was a very, very consistent player, reaching semifinals regularly. But since then, she has three-month patches of success followed by rough form. If that kind of trend keeps up, I'd be surprised if she remains ahead of Davenport on that list, even when she passes Davenport for slam wins overall.

Well, you're assuming that Maria has already passed her peak, which is yet to be seen. Besides, you say that Maria is having trouble maintaining her level, but her winning % this year is the best of her career.


To prove that your assumption is unfounded, here is Maria's record at Tier 2 and above events broken down year by year:

2002
Year: 1-1 (.500)
Career: 1-1 (.500)

2003
Year: 8-10 (.444)
Career: 9-11 (.450)

2004
Year: 38-14 (.731)
Career: 47-25 (.653)

2005
Year: 48-12 (.800)
Career: 95-37 (.720)

2006
Year: 56-8 (.875)
Career: 151-45 (.770)

2007
Year: 34-9 (.791)
Career: 185-54 (.774)

2008
Year: 30-4 (.882)
Career: 215-58 (.788)

As you can see, Sharapova has improved her career winning percentage each year since 2003, and her yearly winning percentage has been better than the previous year's winning percentage with 2003 and 2007 being the lone exceptions. Most importantly, she has had four consecutive years with a winning percentage higher than her current career average of 78.8%. Thus, it seems that your assertion that Maria is having difficulty maintaining her quality is based more on conjecture than fact.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Henin's W-L ratio is .823 (167-36) on outdoor hardcourts -behind only Serena,
.872 (102-15) on clay courts -- leader with a huge margin,
.833 (35-7) on grass courts -- third behind Venus and Serena,
.728 (59-22) indoors -- fourth behind Lindsay, Maria, and Serena.
Overall, her W-L ratio is .819 (363-80) -- behind only Serena.

:drool:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:02 PM
To prove that your assumption is unfounded, here is Maria's record at Tier 2 and above events broken down year by year:

2002
Year: 1-1 (.500)
Career: 1-1 (.500)

2003
Year: 8-10 (.444)
Career: 9-11 (.450)

2004
Year: 38-14 (.731)
Career: 47-25 (.653)

2005
Year: 48-12 (.800)
Career: 95-37 (.720)

2006
Year: 56-8 (.875)
Career: 151-45 (.770)

2007
Year: 34-9 (.791)
Career: 185-54 (.774)

2008
Year: 30-4 (.882)
Career: 215-58 (.788)

As you can see, Sharapova has improved her career winning percentage each year since 2003, and her yearly winning percentage has been better than the previous year's winning percentage with 2003 and 2007 being the lone exceptions. Most importantly, she has had four consecutive years with a winning percentage higher than her current career average of 78.8%. Thus, it seems that your assertion that Maria is having difficulty maintaining her quality is based more on conjecture than fact.

maria for this season at least will have boosted stats simply because of her start to the season...and won't be playing anymore so she can't lose anymore or win anymore.....but you can't say the entire season was outstanding and that she maintained her quality...but whatever...the importance of what olso was saying is that in 05-06 she got the name semi pova because of how incredibly consistent she was at everything she played....now she has great runs then horrible patches :shrug: its not that hard to comprehend

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:02 PM
:drool:

:lol:

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:07 PM
maria for this season at least will have boosted stats simply because of her start to the season...and won't be playing anymore so she can't lose anymore or win anymore.....but you can't say the entire season was outstanding and that she maintained her quality...but whatever...the importance of what olso was saying is that in 05-06 she got the name semi pova because of how incredibly consistent she was at everything she played....now she has great runs then horrible patches :shrug: its not that hard to comprehend

No, what is not so hard to comprehend is that even w/ these two years of Maria "not being able to maintain her level" (actually, it's more like she hasn't been able to stay healthy and play enough) her winning percentage has been higher than her current career mark of 78.8%. So why would it be "optimistic", as Oslo said, to think that she can maintain this career percentage, at least for the foreseeable future?

Tamus
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:12 PM
By the way, her winning percentage from her "remarkable" 2005-2006 was .839, and during her "rough" 2007-2008 it was .831. What a huge difference. :rolleyes:

olivero
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Agnieszka on grass :drool:

sammy01
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:52 PM
ok 1st, maria stats this year look better than they should because of the 2 walkovers shes given, to me her year is 32-6, its a bug bear of mine that stats don't include walkovers because if you start a tournament and don't win it therefore you lose, be it by defeat, retirement or walkover.

as for venus being a threat on hard or clay at slams, shes not. i don't see how you can say she has the capabilty to win 7 matches in a row therefore shes a threat, well so does davenport and mauresmo dosen't mean their factors to win slams. the fact that 'she gets beat by the champion' only tells me that theres better players in the draw than her capable of winning. her record off of grass is very poor and has shown no signs to me that she is going to win a non grass slam. for the last 2 years venus's record in the 3 other slams is the same as chakvetadzes (who is talentless trash according to most) and shes not considered a threat to win these majors so why is venus?

as for davenport she to me is 3rd in the accomplishments list with maria 4th, win loss ratios are a nice indicator but its career stats that define it, though maria has plenty of time to change this.

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 11:04 PM
her record off of grass is very poor and has shown no signs to me that she is going to win a non grass slam. for the last 2 years venus's record in the 3 other slams is the same as chakvetadzes (who is talentless trash according to most) and shes not considered a threat to win these majors so why is venus?


Well there is one difference-- Venus has done it before. ;)
Not to say that Chaky is talentless trash, or any trash at all for that matter. You should know I quite like her by now.

sammy01
Sep 26th, 2008, 11:10 PM
Well there is one difference-- Venus has done it before. ;)
Not to say that Chaky is talentless trash, or any trash at all for that matter. You should know I quite like her by now.

yes but i covered that in davenport/mauresmo they have done it before dosen't mean their going to do it again. the chak comparison was because her slam record at the other 3 majors is very close to venus's in the last 2 years. you realy can't go on form or titles won from 7 or 8 years ago as an indicator to the present.

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Well in women's tennis, people often think that if you win a major and play excellently, like Venus on grass, that you should be able to win anywhere. Amelie and Davenport haven't been winning majors or even making deep runs.

Il Primo!
Sep 27th, 2008, 12:26 AM
Screw the sisters. It's all about Maria!

Tennisstar86
Sep 27th, 2008, 12:31 AM
ok 1st, maria stats this year look better than they should because of the 2 walkovers shes given, to me her year is 32-6, its a bug bear of mine that stats don't include walkovers because if you start a tournament and don't win it therefore you lose, be it by defeat, retirement or walkover.

as for venus being a threat on hard or clay at slams, shes not. i don't see how you can say she has the capabilty to win 7 matches in a row therefore shes a threat, well so does davenport and mauresmo dosen't mean their factors to win slams. the fact that 'she gets beat by the champion' only tells me that theres better players in the draw than her capable of winning. her record off of grass is very poor and has shown no signs to me that she is going to win a non grass slam. for the last 2 years venus's record in the 3 other slams is the same as chakvetadzes (who is talentless trash according to most) and shes not considered a threat to win these majors so why is venus?

as for davenport she to me is 3rd in the accomplishments list with maria 4th, win loss ratios are a nice indicator but its career stats that define it, though maria has plenty of time to change this.

Because Chak had cakewalk draws? and Venus lost to inform players at the Us Open. Venus has won the Open before and been to the finals of the other two........

and people dont give Venus great odds to win the FO especially.... I'd say Venus winning the FO at this point (she had her chances in the past) would be as shocking if Chaky actually ever won a slam....

Josh.
Sep 27th, 2008, 12:36 AM
Daniela in ever list :eek:

OsloErik
Sep 27th, 2008, 03:24 AM
I'm talking about present, not future :yawn:

Why on earth would you talk about a 22 year old who still has several years to her career to a 32 year old who could theoretically re-retire any second now? Hingis had a win/loss that was in the .800's after her first three years on the tour. Who would've thought that Venus would have a better one in the end?

Tamus
Sep 27th, 2008, 04:01 AM
Why on earth would you talk about a 22 year old who still has several years to her career to a 32 year old who could theoretically re-retire any second now? Hingis had a win/loss that was in the .800's after her first three years on the tour. Who would've thought that Venus would have a better one in the end?

So. The world could theoretically blow up tomorrow and we would all cease to exist. What's your point?

This thread is about active players and their current W-L records (i.e. winning percentage.) Maria Sharapova is currently ahead of Lindsay Davenport in that particular statistic. That's all that Adal said, which is much more relevant to the thread than any speculation of what winning percentage players are going to retire with or total wins or anything like that. All that talk is well and good, but don't call out a poster for making a statement that is very relevant to the thread's original topic. And I'm curious, why the speculation on what winning percentage Maria will retire with? Again, all of these players are active; why not speculate about all of them? :confused:

Ciarán
Oct 4th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Very Interesting! :yeah:

Dav.
Oct 4th, 2008, 02:21 PM
I calculated Tatiana Golovin's for fun:

OVERALL WIN-LOSS RECORD at TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.6047 104-68 (#14: Between Jankovic and Chakvetadze who has .6042)

OUTDOOR HARDCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.6047 52-34 ( #15: Between Zvonareva and Schnyder)

CLAYCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.600 15-10 (#16: Between Hantuchova and Chakvetadze)

GRASSCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.556 5-4 (#18: Between Zvonereva and Sugiyama)

INDOOR CARPET/HARDCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.627 32-19 (#7: Between Vaidisova and Safina)

Not too bad considering the injuries and the fact she's literally never played healthy or played any matches prior to red clay and grass seasons since 2004.

I'm interested to see what Kournikova's would be, too.

Dav.
Oct 4th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Anna Kournikova:

OVERALL WIN-LOSS RECORD at TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.620 171-105 (#14: Between Jankovic and Chakvetadze)

OUTDOOR HARDCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.626 77-46 (#14: Between Safina and Zvonareva)

CLAYCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.639 39-22 (#13: Between Demenetieva and Schnyder)

GRASSCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.667 16-8 (#12: Between Dementieva and Bartoli)

INDOOR CARPET/HARDCOURT TIER II and ABOVE EVENTS
.534 39-34 (#14: Between Chakvetadze and Schnyder)

Anna really had an amazing record until her injury in 2001 and an even more spectacular one in the years of 1997-2000. Her poor record after the aforementioned injury to her retirement is really the reason she isn't higher on the lists.

BTW, if I miscalculated anything, please let me know. I was in a bit of a hurry and might have missed something or accidently counted a lower tier event...

Temperenka
Oct 4th, 2008, 03:53 PM
I hate these stats. Nicole 6th on indoor behind the WS, Maria, Lindsay, and Amelie. Everything else got hurt by this year. Nicole...according to this stat, you should be competitive. Son of a bitch, Radek.
Good stat!

OsloErik
Oct 4th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Lindsay :worship:
Lindsay indoors :bowdown: :eek:

These stats reflect Lindsay, Serena and Venus' position as the greatest active players.

Conveniently forgetting a certain someone with a better winning % than Lindsay.

Problem in this pair of posts: Tamus assumes that dave. is referring solely to the winning %.

Well they are the 3 greatest active players and I was saying that the fact they are in the top4/5 of every list here reflects that. Maria's still good though. ;)

So is Maria...

Not getting your point.

No this thread supports the claim that Serena and Venus are the two greatest active players. Lindsay is fourth on this list, so I don't see how that shows that she is part of the 3 greatest active players.:shrug:

This thread doesn’t actually support any claims about who is the greatest active player. Win/Loss records don’t mean squat until players have retired. In 1993, Monica Seles had a better Tier II+ Win/Loss record than Navratilova, Graf, and probably even Evert. Things got in the way. It’s naïve to assume that, at this moment, Sharapova’s position at #3 on this list is indicative that she will end her career there; she could end it above the Williams sisters, she could end it below Ivanovic. We just don’t know. Greatness, mid-career, cannot be quantified by a single statistic, and surely not Win/Loss records that are so fluid from season to season.

She has already surpassed Lindsay. She has better Clay/Grass records and better overall.
:wavey:

Again, here, Adal is assuming that in this discussion of GREATNESS, the actual % is the figure most germane to the conversation. Unfortunately, comparing players separated by what, 10 years or so, doesn’t lend itself to comparison. This is a statistic where your position on the list is not fixed; is Sharapova ahead on this list AT THE MOMENT? Obviously, yes. But that doesn’t mean she will stay there. It’s not as if Sharapova has won her 4th slam and has thus moved AHEAD of Davenport (and Capriati) on that list, which will likely not change. This is a list you can slip down on. That doesn’t indicate greatness. The 4 tenths of a percentage difference is approximately equal to one or two Sharapova losses. So no, this doesn’t prove beyond any doubt that Sharapova is greater than Davenport. The fact that her numbers are more affected by each given match is indicative of that. It doesn’t necessarily prove Davenport is greater (because, well, she’s not ahead on the list of %, which is the primary discussion tool here), but it leaves both options open, with pros and cons to both.

Lindsay has the most wins on the list. :wavey:

I was looking more at no. of wins. Pova's % of wins is great through, so if she keeps that up her place amongst the top will be looking very good.

This is where dave. finally articulates which numbers he is looking at. A little late in the game, but it’s a nice gesture anyway.

You're operating under the assumption that she will maintain these rates of win/loss overall. That's optimistic. It's entirely possible that she will, but Lindsay isn't going to change a whole lot from this number (I, personally, don't expect her to play another season). Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality. She had a remarkable two-year stretch (2005-2006) where she was a very, very consistent player, reaching semifinals regularly. But since then, she has three-month patches of success followed by rough form. If that kind of trend keeps up, I'd be surprised if she remains ahead of Davenport on that list, even when she passes Davenport for slam wins overall.

I'm talking about present, not future :yawn:

In discussions of greatness the present state of a single statistic, particularly one that isn’t a permanent statistic (i.e. this transient stat, vs. overall titles or matches), is pretty weak evidence. Just saying. And the yawn wasn’t necessary.

Well, you're assuming that Maria has already passed her peak, which is yet to be seen. Besides, you say that Maria is having trouble maintaining her level, but her winning % this year is the best of her career.

Yes, her winning % out of 35 matches or so is remarkable when compared to seasons where she plays 60-65 matches. And if she continues to play 40 or so matches a year, in all likelihood she’ll remain #3 (or even higher, actually) on that list. But if we’re talking about greatness, winning 700+ matches is remarkable. To win that money with a 78+% ratio, even more remarkable. So Sharapova might end her career with an Evert-esque win/loss record. But she won’t have the titles of the others in that category. Until she matches high quality with any degree of quantity, she doesn’t figure into the discussion of Win/Loss records indicating CAREER greatness. Her career is too young. There’s too much more she is capable of doing, both to further her cause (likely) or harm her cause (also possible). I’m not a fan of Sharapova, not by any stretch, but I would far prefer her to have a 2006 like season, where she’s steady for 75% and exceptional for 25% of the year, than 2008 where she’s exceptional for 25% and inactive for 75% of the year. And 2006 was her best year by any standard I can think of.

To prove that your assumption is unfounded, here is Maria's record at Tier 2 and above events broken down year by year:

2002
Year: 1-1 (.500)
Career: 1-1 (.500)

2003
Year: 8-10 (.444)
Career: 9-11 (.450)

2004
Year: 38-14 (.731)
Career: 47-25 (.653)

2005
Year: 48-12 (.800)
Career: 95-37 (.720)

2006
Year: 56-8 (.875)
Career: 151-45 (.770)

2007
Year: 34-9 (.791)
Career: 185-54 (.774)

2008
Year: 30-4 (.882)
Career: 215-58 (.788)

As you can see, Sharapova has improved her career winning percentage each year since 2003, and her yearly winning percentage has been better than the previous year's winning percentage with 2003 and 2007 being the lone exceptions. Most importantly, she has had four consecutive years with a winning percentage higher than her current career average of 78.8%. Thus, it seems that your assertion that Maria is having difficulty maintaining her quality is based more on conjecture than fact.

Let me rephrase my “assertion” then. Originally, I wrote: “Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality”. Now, I’ll write: “Sharapova is already facing the problem of maintaining her quality AND ANY RESPECTABLE LEVEL OF QUANTITY”. Does that work better? She’s doing great at keeping her winning % for 3 months. And then she’s gone for 9. Quality is terrific; I’m all for it. But if you can’t keep up a decent quantity of wins, who cares? You’re not going to make an impression on the GOAT list if you aren’t winning titles, and if you only play 40 matches a year, there are only so many titles you can win.

maria for this season at least will have boosted stats simply because of her start to the season...and won't be playing anymore so she can't lose anymore or win anymore.....but you can't say the entire season was outstanding and that she maintained her quality...but whatever...the importance of what olso was saying is that in 05-06 she got the name semi pova because of how incredibly consistent she was at everything she played....now she has great runs then horrible patches :shrug: its not that hard to comprehend

TeAmWiLlIaMs says something similar, but not quite accurate: she doesn’t have horrible patches in terms of playing. She has horrible patches because she ISN’T playing. From 1993 through 2005 (the year Davenport first played all four slams to the last year she played all four slams), she averaged 64.5 matches a year. From 2003 through this season, Sharapova has averaged 56.8 matches a year. That represents two entire tournaments more per year. And Sharapova is in the peak years for playing large numbers of matches. So yes, Sharapova very well may maintain her very impressive Win/Loss record. But even if she plays 13 full seasons on the tour (which Davenport has done), it’s extremely unlikely she’ll have Davenport’s raw numbers of matches. Winning .4% more often compared to your total number of tournaments in a negligible difference; winning 200 more matches is a dramatic difference.

And I’ll give you that dave. started talking about this issue in a weird, weird way (since I would also assume that the conversation would revolve around W/L %, since that’s the thread topic), but since we’re discussing greatness, not who wins this stat (since that’s not a discussion but a number, and Sharapova wins by .4%, clearly) it’s relevant.

OsloErik
Oct 4th, 2008, 05:02 PM
I hate these stats. Nicole 6th on indoor behind the WS, Maria, Lindsay, and Amelie. Everything else got hurt by this year. Nicole...according to this stat, you should be competitive. Son of a bitch, Radek.
Good stat!

Her position that high is especially remarkable since she hasn't won a title at that level yet. It means she goes DEEP in the draw everywhere indoors.

LudwigDvorak
Oct 8th, 2009, 05:42 AM
I'd love to see an update for this.

Tennisstar86
Oct 8th, 2009, 05:55 AM
Venus stay off the indoor courts....

DragonFlame
Oct 8th, 2009, 10:35 AM
Yeah, i'd love an update on this too if annak has the time! :D Especially with the belgians back in the mix.

Journeywoman
Oct 8th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Henin and Clijsters reinserted and Davenport taken out.

Craig.
Oct 8th, 2009, 10:27 PM
Yes, I would like an update as well.

fouc
Oct 8th, 2009, 11:30 PM
Aga is such a grass GOAT! :hearts: ;)

miffedmax
Oct 9th, 2009, 12:53 AM
Instead of by surface, I think we need a breakdown of Lena's W/L with and without bangs.

V's a star
Oct 9th, 2009, 12:56 AM
:haha: Venus #1 on clay
Eat it!

Svetlana.
Oct 9th, 2009, 01:05 AM
:haha: Venus #1 on clay
Eat it!

as of last year she's been leading with a big margin :lol:

V WILLIAMS .777 101-29
S WILLIAMS .771 74-22
A IVANOVIC .765 39-12
M SHARAPOVA .755 37-12


Ivanovic should drop from the top 5 now

OsloErik
Oct 10th, 2009, 05:28 AM
Oh good lord, I remember this thread. It was an absolute abortion of a discussion with about 8 people missing connections every single post.

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 10th, 2009, 08:01 PM
updated through to Beijing final.

tennis-insomniac
Oct 10th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Serena is the only one who got an "A" in the class

Alex03Maccy
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:00 PM
momo's always in these lists, so classy :sad:

frenchie
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:06 PM
yeah Wozniacki and Radwanska's numbers are horrible!
Sure!

Journeywoman
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Jankovic not a single 70%+ category. :tape:

Craig.
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:19 PM
CLAYCOURTS PREMIER/TIER II and above RECORD


A IVANOVIC .754 43-14
M SHARAPOVA .754 43-14

:eek:

Journeywoman
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:22 PM
He's counting green clay.

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:37 PM
He's counting green clay.

Masha's red clay courts W/L ratio is almost the same though.

terjw
Oct 10th, 2009, 09:58 PM
Kimmie :hearts:

DragonFlame
Oct 10th, 2009, 10:12 PM
Can we put justine back in? :D

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 10th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Can we put justine back in? :D

The evil witch is yet to regain her power.

DragonFlame
Oct 10th, 2009, 10:23 PM
The evil witch is yet to regain her power.

AnnaK :ras:

;)



Promise me you won't forget it! :lol:

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 10th, 2009, 10:28 PM
I'll add Justine in the end of the season ;)

Ah, what the hell! I'll add her right now!

P.S.
Done.

terjw
Oct 10th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Sisters and Belgians are the top 4 in three of the five lists and in the top 5 in all five of the lists. :worship: :worship:

Only other player to break into the top 4 of any of the lists is Shriekapova.

OsloErik
Oct 12th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Masha's red clay courts W/L ratio is almost the same though.

One of those weird things. We (that is, most of us) think of Ivanovic as one of the better clay courters of her generation, and someone who could legitimately be a multiple-champion at the French, and Sharapova as a mediocre clay courter, but in reality Sharapova is very consistent on the clay. Her only really "bad" stretches were 2003, when she was 15 or 16, and 2006-2007, when she played 3 tournaments total on clay, and other than that she's been a very impressive 35-10 on dirt, 29-9 on the red. It's not as if she's beating the top clay courters on the tour in that stretch, but she's not losing to many players who AREN'T top clay courters. I'd bet it's safe to say that trend is likely to continue.

Ivanovic, meanwhile, has a two-year stretch of exemplary clay-court results (and form, I might add), but a fairly patchy record other than that. Still a solid 17-9, but it's hardly the kind of consistency you'd expect from someone who can be so dominant.

I personally hope that 2010 brings a return to elite clay tennis. It would be so exciting if Ivanovic regained her form, Clijsters plays some events, Henin maintains the magic, Safina stops imploding, and Kuznetsova stays sharp. Doubly exciting if Serena got more consistent on the clay and Venus hit a hot streak. Clay tennis is a blast when the rallies are high quality and the points won intelligently.

thrust
Oct 12th, 2009, 10:55 PM
Not surprising. The sisters are the best active players, with Sharapova a pretty close third.

Not if you include Kim and Justine as active players. In that case: Serena, Justine, Kim, Venus, then Sharapova. Venus is only ahead of the Belgians on grass, while Justine is Queen of Clay and very close to Serena on Hard Courts.

Corswandt
Oct 14th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Clay tennis is a blast when the rallies are high quality and the points won intelligently.

Which is never.

DragonFlame
Oct 14th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Which is never.

Just wait a little longer, justine will be on the dirt soon. :wavey:

;)

cecilija
Oct 14th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Just wait a little longer, justine will be on the dirt soon. :wavey:

;)

He'd enjoy it only if she were to suck 2008 style :p

OsloErik
Oct 14th, 2009, 07:12 PM
Which is never.

French Open, 1999 ;)

But seriously, there are occassional gems. A few of the Petrova-Henin matchups in 2006 were terrific, Hingis made clay season exciting for a little while, and Jankovic's 2007 and 2008 clay campaigns produced a bunch of good matches.

AnnaK_4ever
Nov 6th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Updated after the Season Ending Championships.