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chuvack
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:23 AM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

Miss Atomic Bomb
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Funniest thread of the year.. :haha: :haha:


ps:- Just for the note, WS >>>>>>>> all the people you mentioned COMBINED

bandabou
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:31 AM
Maybe..but the funny thing is: Those rival were supposed to outlast the sisters.

Josh.
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:33 AM
Great OP. :yeah:

chuvack
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Maybe..but the funny thing is: Those rival were supposed to outlast the sisters.


that's my point. The whole tour has crumbled apart, both the old and young generations. It's absolutley scary what has happened to the WTA in the last few years.

LudwigDvorak
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

I'd say Safina is overperforming. That's all I want to add.

Wojtek
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:44 AM
WTA sucks this days so much but they were the best at Wimbledon and Us Open. I just don't see better player at Wimbledon then Williams and Serena was too good in NY.

Probably Venus or Serena would win Wimbledon anyway but i don't think Serena would win Us Open with Clijsters, Henin, Sharapova and Mauresmo in top form.

Lunaris
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:45 AM
I was waiting for this thread to appear. In fact I was tempted to start one, just to see the havoc it would cause.

Apoorv
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:51 AM
Yes, Williams sisters have benefited esp since Henin's game evaporated between Nov. 2007 and Jan 2008 and she retired eventually. A Justine and Serena rivalry would have kept WTA alive. May be ivanovic would not have become no. 1 and would not have lost the confidence.

Hardiansf
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:33 AM
WTA sucks this days so much but they were the best at Wimbledon and Us Open. I just don't see better player at Wimbledon then Williams and Serena was too good in NY.

Probably Venus or Serena would win Wimbledon anyway but i don't think Serena would win Us Open with Clijsters, Henin, Sharapova and Mauresmo in top form.

:rolleyes::lol: Can you imagine what will happen if Williams Sisters always in top form? :tape::help:

markhingis
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:41 AM
I think only Henin could withstand Williams sisters. Other players depending on their days on and Williamses off.

bandabou
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Were winning before, during and after..

Wojtek
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:56 AM
:rolleyes::lol: Can you imagine what will happen if Williams Sisters always in top form? :tape::help:

Yes great tennis. Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Mauremso in top form = classic matches.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:02 AM
:lol: considering how Serena just absolutely PWND Henin in Miami, I seriously doubt Juju wanted to See Serena on another hardcourt, but you know what, I'll give you the whole Serena thing and Henin not being around, cause no one can argue with how Juju PWND Serena last year at the slams, so..., "sauce for the goose," so to speak. VENUS, however, makes your claim look ridiculous, at least as far as Wimby is concerned. Venus has OWNED Wimby no matter who the comer. When she didn't she was injured or grieving. So, your claim holds no water when it comes to Vee and Wimby.

Aaron.
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Serena and Venus win a major 2 seasons in a row and some people think about how weak the Womens game is dead.

Shut up for once the WS are champions stop acting like they are scrubs and cant win anything if thier rivals are playing

AnDyDog621
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:07 AM
if Venus or Serena had won the French Open...then this thread might be more valid.

Aaron.
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:07 AM
Funniest thread of the year.. :haha: :haha:


ps:- Just for the note, WS >>>>>>>> all the people you mentioned COMBINED Exactly

Aaron.
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I guess the same could be said about some other players too

Ana Ivanovic won RG cause Henin,Clijsters,Hingis didnt show up

:weirdo:

Wojtek
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I guess the same could be said about some other players too

Ana Ivanovic won RG cause Henin,Clijsters,Hingis didnt show up

:weirdo:

Good point :)

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:11 AM
The Williams won that matters, all the losers quited and lost to them because they weren't good enough. But anyway, It's great to see the low level of intelligence on GM being dropped by every thread. :yeah:

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:13 AM
if Venus or Serena had won the French Open...then this thread might be more valid.

If Dinara Safina had won, it would have been because all her opponents choked for her instead. :lol:

Zweli
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:24 AM
The thread is a total insult to the Williams hard work.
They have won two majors, unfortunately you have to live with it for the next 12 months.
Are you bitter or in denial?
In other words you want to tell us that the Williams have been responsible for retirements and sidelining major rivals.You are a joke.

frontier
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:24 AM
I think the thread should be...The Serbs recent success is due to the retirement or sidelining of their major rival...namely Justine who really terrorized them.:p
Kim Justine Ana have never stopped Venus at Wimbledon...even if Justine was still playing she was not going to stop these slams from happening this year

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:33 AM
I think the thread should be...The Serbs recent success is due to the retirement or sidelining of their major rival...namely Justine who really terrorized them.:p
Kim Justine Ana have never stopped Venus at Wimbledon...even if Justine was still playing she was not going to stop these slams from happening this year

:amen: :worship: :amen:

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:33 AM
The thread is a total insult to the Williams hard work.
They have won two majors, unfortunately you have to live with it for the next 12 months.
Are you bitter or in denial?
In other words you want to tell us that the Williams have been responsible for retirements and sidelining major rivals.You are a joke.

:d

AnDyDog621
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:52 AM
If Dinara Safina had won, it would have been because all her opponents choked for her instead. :lol:

Like I said, if Venus or Serena had won the French Open...then this thread might be more valid. If Dinara had won it...it would definitely be more valid than Venus or Serena.

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Like I said, if Venus or Serena had won the French Open...then this thread might be more valid. If Dinara had won it...it would definitely be more valid than Venus or Serena.

Oh ok, but I still like Dinara, I just dislike her ghosty-moan :D

eugreene2
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:16 AM
This thread is a joke but since you want to go there, I'll take the ride.

Here is my only statement:

The 2003 US Open and the 2004 Aussie Open should be stripped from Justine because Serena & Venus completely and utterly owned her on all courts except clay before the knee & abdominal injuries. (note: she had to cheat on clay at RG & venus was beating her on clay)

So let's not start playing the if game because my statement seems way more likely than yours. In 2007, Justine had to play the match of her life just to beat Venus at the Open and Venus won Wimbledon when she was around so QUIT the foolish talk.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:16 AM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud



I can't resist troll threads :devil: someone has to point out the obvious to you. Firstly, let me start with a fairly fundamental concept that some people still seem unable to grasp. Serena and Venus are different people. They were born in different years, started playing professional tennis in different years, they have had different careers and they have both had different major rivals.

Only one person on your list was a major rival to Serena, Justine Henin. Jelena Jankovic still is a major rival and she played arguably the best match of her Grand Slam career against Serena in the US Open Final recently. All the other head to heads are embarassingly in favour of Serena, so lets not even go there.

Justine retired but it was after being owned by Serena, during the middle of her winning streak, and greatest period of success this year. So please explain to me how Justine's retirement helped Serena's success when she was an active player for the majority of it?

RVD
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:17 AM
:haha: I actually LOVE these kinds of threads because OPs wind up getting pwned in the end...like Vee and Rena's opponents. :lol:

Anyway, didn't Serena wax Justine's azz before she retired?
In fact, didn't Maria wax Justine before she decided to give up?
And what is the H2H between Serena and those mentioned in the OPP?
Fact is, champions demonstrate their championship character by making comebacks, or reclaiming that champion status.
There is always new talent coming up, and there is always a lull in between...in any sport. :shrug:

Let's not disrespect these players when they clearly show us great matches like this past USO.

Now I'm waiting for the perennial "The Williams Sisters Will Never Win Another Slam" thread. :tape:
That thread is about due isn't it? :rolleyes:

RVD
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:20 AM
I can't resist troll threads :devil: someone has to point out the obvious to you. Firstly, let me start with a fairly fundamental concept that some people still seem unable to grasp. Serena and Venus are different people. They were born in different years, started playing professional tennis in different years, they have had different careers and they have both had different major rivals.

Only one person on your list was a major rival to Serena, Justine Henin. Jelena Jankovic still is a major rival and she played arguably the best match of her Grand Slam career against Serena in the US Open Final recently. All the other head to heads are embarassingly in favour of Serena, so lets not even go there.

Justine retired but it was after being owned by Serena, during the middle of her winning streak, and greatest period of success this year. So please explain to me how Justine's retirement helped Serena's success when she was an active player for the majority of it?:lol: :worship:
We said nearly the exact same thing only seconds apart. :D

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:22 AM
:lol: :worship:
We said nearly the exact same thing only seconds apart. :D

I know :lol:

Ahh well, a double bagel for Chuvack to munch on :lick:

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:27 AM
A champion in my opinion is Serena, she's one because she's been on top of the game for so long, she's been out by a surgery, she has come back, she fell again due to injuries, and then she came back again and is on top again.

Justine can't be called the greatest champion, since she really had no serious injury going on in her career to make such a comeback, and she quited when she was down, and didn't have it in her to fight back.

RVD
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:36 AM
I know :lol:

Ahh well, a double bagel for Chuvack to munch on :lick::lol: http://deephousepage.com/smilies/grinyes.gif

PLP
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:42 AM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

Great post. I think they only slight disagreement I have is that it should be they have 'benefited' from the rest of the field evaporating. This is obvious isn't it?
Would they still be winning majors anyway...of course!
Has the rest of the tour totally crumbled? Unfortunately yes.

Living_Legend
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Part of being a Grand Slam champion is being in physically peak condition for two weeks, there's no point in having great skills if your injuries mean you can hardly serve, or running for the ball is like having knives stabbed into your leg.

Saying that Serena won the US Open because her rivals weren't in top physical conditions, to me, is the same as saying Serena won the US open because so-and-so didn't have a good serve etc.

We may as well say the only reason why Serena won this US Open because Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal didn't have sex changes and started on the women's tour. People need to accept that Ree was the best player over the two weeks and therefore the rightful champion!!!

Jakeev
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Look nobody is gonna deny that the tour kinda caught up to the Williams sisters.

But in the end, you still have to get up early in the morning to outright beat a Williams week end and out and even though Justine might have done it four times in 07, Venus and Serena have only been getting better since then.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:59 AM
ummmm so what happened when the sisters weren't playing??? everyone else should give back their titles because the sisters were not playing :wavey: jh has to give up her 03 us open and 04 AO title, 07 us open title because clearly serena/venus were not in their best physical condition....so i'd say jh and the others have to give back their titles since obviously the sisters were sidelined

03- both left the tour due to career threatening injuries (give back your US Open jh)
04- came back but were not the same as the previous two years (give back your AO title jh, FO title Mys. Wimbly title Masha, US Open Kuzzy)
05- serena won AO then was sidelined the rest of the year/venus won wimbly and that was it (so give back your RG title jh and US Open title Kim)
06- both were sidelined with injuries the majority of the year (give back your AO and Wimbly titles MoMo, your RG title jh and your US Open title Masha)
07- serena couldn't sustain her momentum after winning AO/Miami and became out of shape, venus had anaemia and couldn't last in long matches but won wimbledon just cause its grass (give back your RG and US Open titles jh)
08- serena/venus played like **** in their QF and 3rd rd losses at the AO and RG (give back your AO title masha, but you can keep yours ana :angel: )

14 GS titles should belong to venus/serena since they were sidelined by injuries a lot and the others only won their titles because of this :)

winone23
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:22 PM
Maybe..but the funny thing is: Those rival were supposed to outlast the sisters.

:lol::lol::lol:Yes that is the funniest part. The same players praised for being so dedicated to the WTA, quit on it.

grudpill
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:24 PM
Venus Williams is the greatest grass court player of her generation, and one of the greatest of all time. She's simply better than every other player on the surface, which is why she wins it so often and makes the finals. If Henin was around in 2008, and Sharapova was fit and Clijsters was around, Venus still would have won Wimbledon. No other player dominates a surface as completely as Venus dominate grass.

Venus has given Sharapova two Wimby beatdowns in the past few years, before winning the title. An in-form Henin had the chance to face Venus in the 07 Wimby final, but choked against Bartoli. Not Venus' problem.

So Venus' Wimby wins basically come because she's superior to every player on the surface, no matter their form or talent. It has nothing to do with her benefitting from a weakened tour. If Venus was really benefitting, she'd be winning more than Wimbledon.

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Venus Williams is the greatest grass court player of her generation, and one of the greatest of all time. She's simply better than every other player on the surface, which is why she wins it so often and makes the finals. If Henin was around in 2008, and Sharapova was fit and Clijsters was around, Venus still would have won Wimbledon. No other player dominates a surface as completely as Venus dominate grass.

Venus has given Sharapova two Wimby beatdowns in the past few years, before winning the title. An in-form Henin had the chance to face Venus in the 07 Wimby final, but choked against Bartoli. Not Venus' problem.

So Venus' Wimby wins basically come because she's superior to every player on the surface, no matter their form or talent. It has nothing to do with her benefitting from a weakened tour. If Venus was really benefitting, she'd be winning more than Wimbledon.

Serena can beat her though, but she left it, next time she'll take that crown.

VishaalMaria
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:28 PM
A champion in my opinion is Serena, she's one because she's been on top of the game for so long, she's been out by a surgery, she has come back, she fell again due to injuries, and then she came back again and is on top again.

Justine can't be called the greatest champion, since she really had no serious injury going on in her career to make such a comeback, and she quited when she was down, and didn't have it in her to fight back.

But you're just limiting your post to injuries when personal issues can be discussed as well, and Justine had more personal issues in her career than injuries. That I know, but I didn't follow Justines career all the way so I'm not totally informed.

I do know that she came back from a viral infection and started to win slams again so that deserves some credit. And also, she went through her grandfathers death and became enstranged from her family and was still winning slams thereafter. Recently, she went through her divorce and came back to win ten titles in that year including two slams and the YEC.

So, yeah, Serena went through alot of injuries but Justine went through alot of personal issues and so in that respect both came back strong from being down and seemingly out in their careers. Therefore both, in my opinion, are considered great champions.

hablo
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06

I'm certain Amélie wouldn't agree or she wouldn't still be around on tour.

VishaalMaria
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:43 PM
First of all, her viral infection was no big deal, she could have came back after 2 months, but she wanted to train herself of at Etcheberry's center.

She was already enstranged from her family since she got married, which was her god damn own fault, and she should have listened.

Her grandfather is no big deal either, old people die, and she knew it months ahead.

Serena's and Venus's sister got shot, I think that's more painful than all the things she got through during her carreer. Combine it with injuries, it's a lot worse..


Firstly, how do you know her viral infection wasn't a big deal? Different things affect people in different ways no matter how small or big.

Secondly, it doesn't matter when you become enstranged from your family, it's still a lot of mental baggage for someone whether it's 2 months down the road or ten years. And what do you mean, she should have listened?

As for the grandfather comment, that was pretty harsh. But all the same, it still would have affected Justine.

With regards to the Williams sisters, I mentioned that both Serena [obv including Venus with regards to Yetunde] and Justine have gone through alot of personal and physical issues. It isn't a competition, but both have had a hard time dealing with such things.

That's all I'm saying, it isn't just Serena that has come back from negativity in her life to become a champion.

miss molly
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:50 PM
First of all, her viral infection was no big deal, she could have came back after 2 months, but she wanted to train herself of at Etcheberry's center.

She was already enstranged from her family since she got married, which was her god damn own fault, and she should have listened.

Her grandfather is no big deal either, old people die, and she knew it months ahead.

Serena's and Venus's sister got shot, I think that's more painful than all the things she got through during her carreer. Combine it with injuries, it's a lot worse..


Disgusting post.

winone23
Sep 11th, 2008, 12:57 PM
I'm really sick of these threads the Williams sisters have 16 slams combined. Venus has been in 13 slams finals and Serena has been in 12 slams finals. One sister has made it to at least one slam final in 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003,2004, 2005, 2007, and 2008. Several eras have come and gone and the Williams sisters are still winning slams. Give credit where credit is due and stop the BS.

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:02 PM
Disgusting post.

Nothing more disgusting than Justine fans.

new-york
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Serena playing well was always gonna win a lot anyway.

And Venus at Wimz when playing well often results as a win.

miss molly
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Nothing more disgusting than Justine fans.

Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

HRHoliviasmith
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:23 PM
I guess the same could be said about some other players too

Ana Ivanovic won RG cause Henin,Clijsters,Hingis didnt show up

:weirdo:

good point!

the only person I can agree with is possibly justine and MAYBE (a big fat one) sharapova as being any real competition. as for hingis being on that list ---> :lol:.

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:24 PM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

Serena Williams won 9 singles slams (all of them)
Serena Williams won 7 doubles slams (all of them)
Serena Williams won 2 mixed doubles slams ..
Serena Williams has held the #1 spot for a year straight
Serena Williams has won 2 doubles gold medals
Serena Williams has been more injured and is still playing...
Serena Williams can with one more Roland Garros have a double career slam
Serena Williams found her form and trashed Henin in Miami, she could have double-bageled her
Serena Williams is the most complete player since 2000

Do we need continue?

---

Saying that Serena won without Justine is completely the same as saying Justine won without Serena. Anyway how you look at it, Serena is a champion, Justine is a sad quiter.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:25 PM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

Wow the ability to string together a coherent line of thought is really troublesome for some on this board isn't it. :lol:

You call him out on his post then proceed with a reply that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what he said about Justine or her issues, hilarious. :haha:

Oh my :lol:

winone23
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:25 PM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

With that said let's discuss Justine, Wimbledon, and Venus. :devil:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:26 PM
With that said let's discuss Justine, Wimbledon, and Venus. :devil:

i was gonna stay out of this but this is too funny :rolls:

brehondavis
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:31 PM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

This is interesting....so using this rationale, I guess it is ok for me to assume that the only reason that the rest of the tour won grand slams between UsOpen 03 and Wimbledon 05 was because Serena was injured and had surgery; Venus was injured also; and they both were dealing with court issues and the death of their sister?

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:33 PM
First of all, her viral infection was no big deal, she could have came back after 2 months, but she wanted to train herself of at Etcheberry's center.

She was already enstranged from her family since she got married, which was her god damn own fault, and she should have listened.

Her grandfather is no big deal either, old people die, and she knew it months ahead.

Serena's and Venus's sister got shot, I think that's more painful than all the things she got through during her carreer. Combine it with injuries, it's a lot worse..

as a serena fan i gotta call you out on this though glenn....this is NOT cool....:o argue about everything on court and bla bla but do not say that death and what's not with her family and her infection were not important or serious :o that's very very disrespectful

Bijoux0021
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:37 PM
This thread is a joke but since you want to go there, I'll take the ride.

Here is my only statement:

The 2003 US Open and the 2004 Aussie Open should be stripped from Justine because Serena & Venus completely and utterly owned her on all courts except clay before the knee & abdominal injuries. (note: she had to cheat on clay at RG & venus was beating her on clay)

So let's not start playing the if game because my statement seems way more likely than yours. In 2007, Justine had to play the match of her life just to beat Venus at the Open and Venus won Wimbledon when she was around so QUIT the foolish talk.
:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Malva
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:43 PM
The Williams recent success is due to the retirement/sidelining of their major rivals

I strongly disagree. This statement has no merit besides being provocative. It is not even worth discussing.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:46 PM
WTA sucks this days so much but they were the best at Wimbledon and Us Open. I just don't see better player at Wimbledon then Williams and Serena was too good in NY.

Probably Venus or Serena would win Wimbledon anyway but i don't think Serena would win Us Open with Clijsters, Henin, Sharapova and Mauresmo in top form.

Your assumption is those players would have to be in top form. Well guess what Serena in top form would have a winning h2h against any female player past or present.

AcesHigh
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Dumb original post.. but some additional dumb posts in backlash. The only players that would have been able to challenge Serena at USO would be a HEALTHY and INSPIRED Maria Sharapova and Justine Henin. Sharapova wasn't healthy and Henin wasn't inspired. End of story.

As for Venus? You'd probably need Mauresmo, Davenport, Henin or Sharapova playing at their best to stop her at Wimbledon.. she hasnt had success elsewhere so I dont think it would make a difference other than that.

mapaliey
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:51 PM
tati golovin is major rival ???....troll

Andy T
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:52 PM
GM is SO predictable! Substitute "Williams" with "Russians" or "Henin" and it'd be like GM in 2003/4/5.

Malva
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:53 PM
As for Venus? You'd probably need Mauresmo, Davenport, Henin or Sharapova playing at their best to stop her at Wimbledon.. she hasnt had success elsewhere so I dont think it would make a difference other than that.

One should not overlook that Venus was playing very well at the US Open and her loss against her sister doesn't change that. I equally can imagine her taking the title.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:57 PM
But you're just limiting your post to injuries when personal issues can be discussed as well, and Justine had more personal issues in her career than injuries. That I know, but I didn't follow Justines career all the way so I'm not totally informed.

I do know that she came back from a viral infection and started to win slams again so that deserves some credit. And also, she went through her grandfathers death and became enstranged from her family and was still winning slams thereafter. Recently, she went through her divorce and came back to win ten titles in that year including two slams and the YEC.

So, yeah, Serena went through alot of injuries but Justine went through alot of personal issues and so in that respect both came back strong from being down and seemingly out in their careers. Therefore both, in my opinion, are considered great champions.
viral infection? If I recall correctly....and I do, she came back a muscle bound ball basher, the Cljisters swore she was juicing. you decide.:wavey:

you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig.:tape:

DA FOREHAND
Sep 11th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Justine 2-7 -v- Venus Williams and you call that a major rival? Round these parts that's called Venus' bytch!

missvarsha
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:15 PM
I would say the Williams recent success is due to their re-dedication to the game.

No one in their right mind ever questioned their talent, just their drive. For the record, the same courtesy should be extended to Henin (maybe Fatty Kim as well ?). An exceptional player who just didn't want to do it anymore.

In a hypothetical case where you had Serena, Venus, Justine and Maria playing full schedules, I would imagine they would rack up pretty even H2Hs. All of those players are (were) good enough in the last few years to be able to challenge each other consistently and not be constantly "pwned" as the rabid fans claim.

AcesHigh
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Justine 2-7 -v- Venus Williams and you call that a major rival? Round these parts that's called Venus' bytch!

H2H in the last 4 years? 1-0

VishaalMaria
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:30 PM
H2H in the last 4 years? 1-0


I'm sure if they played more times, Venus would still have a winning head to head record with Justine.

Justine played her best at the US Open last year, and even a "up and down" Venus in that match gave her the sternest test.

AcesHigh
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:38 PM
I'm sure if they played more times, Venus would still have a winning head to head record with Justine.

Justine played her best at the US Open last year, and even a "up and down" Venus in that match gave her the sternest test.

Yes, because Venus's many successes in the past 4 years make this obvious? That sternest test was still a straight-sets win for Justine.

Venus pre-2003 and post-2003 are two different players even though it hurts me to say taht.
I'm sure her record was positive against Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Davenport before 2003, but if you just look at the H2H after her return, it's a combined 3-11 for Vee.

Henin would have closed the gap.. especially since that's one of the best matches Venus played on hardcourt in the last four years and she still lost. :sad:

eugreene2
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:42 PM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

Once more & again, I have to call people out. Yes, Justine dominated 2007 but that's it where the Williams' are concerned. Justine GREATLY benefitted from Serena's knee & Venus' Abdominal surgeries in 2003. Remember that Serena completely WAXED her at the '03 Wimbledon. It was an embarrassing match. It was highly UNLIKELY THAT Justine was going to win the '03 US Open or '04 Australian against Serena. She's the one that benefitted from injuries.

Let's just give all the young ladies credit for the slams they won & stop playing this stupid IF game. Fact is:

Serena has 9
Venus has 7
Justine has 7

END OF DISCUSSION

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:47 PM
Henin would have closed the gap.. especially since that's one of the best matches Venus played on hardcourt in the last four years and she still lost. :sad:

Yes, but on the positive side you could argue that it was Henin's best match ever. I don't think she's ever played so well against such a quality opponent.

eugreene2
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Henin would have closed the gap.. especially since that's one of the best matches Venus played on hardcourt in the last four years and she still lost. :sad:

Everybody keeps acting like Venus played great & still lost. That is a myth. Venus played a good match but she was up & down in that match & made 40 errors. Congrats to Justine for winning. She deserved the title but let's stop acting as if Venus played great.

harloo
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:52 PM
What I find interesting is that people never mention anything about Henin's meltdown period before she left. Remember Sharapova trounced her at the AO, Serena waxed her in Miami, Bartoli came from behind to steal her Wimbledon dreams, and Safina defeated he on clay. This was the beginning of the Henin decline and instead of staying on the tour to work things out like her competitors(Venus, Serena) she decided to take the easy road.

I think some people need to realize that all champions have a period when they're not winning consistently. Some give up but others stay the course and fight like hell. Serena won the U.S. Open because she refused to give up after having dismal results at the slams for YEARS. Those qtr. final loses would of easily discouraged many top players but Serena remained positive. There wasn't anybody past or present who was going to stop Serena from holding the U.S. Open trophy. If you can't accept that and move on then you're delusional at best.

Tech1
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:54 PM
http://www.baacode.co.uk/users/www.baacode.co.uk/upload/fruit_grapes.jpg

frontier
Sep 11th, 2008, 02:58 PM
http://www.baacode.co.uk/users/www.baacode.co.uk/upload/fruit_grapes.jpgVERY FUNNY:rolls:

SAEKeithSerena
Sep 11th, 2008, 03:04 PM
:rolleyes::lol: Can you imagine what will happen if Williams Sisters always in top form? :tape::help:
exactly. miss henin and miss sharapova and miss amelie would be a lot worse off.

so f*&! this thread.:fiery:

shell
Sep 11th, 2008, 03:08 PM
as a serena fan i gotta call you out on this though glenn....this is NOT cool....:o argue about everything on court and bla bla but do not say that death and what's not with her family and her infection were not important or serious :o that's very very disrespectful

My sentiments exactly. Players all go through difficult times, because that is life. How it affects them is personal and none of our business, and certainly not open to rivalry comparisons. One tragedy vs. another tragedy discussions are rude and disrespectful. One injury/illness vs. another injury/illness is also disrespectful. What are we going to say...thumb > virus, knee < shoulder. Come on people.

Calypso
Sep 11th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Were winning before, during and after..


Exactly. And its not like the people mentioned did not benefit from the sisters' indifferent form and prolonged absences from the tour. All those players won so many slams in the sisters absence.

Galsen
Sep 11th, 2008, 03:49 PM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

ah ah ah ah ah :lol::tape:first at all it wasn't Venus or Serena's fault if they were injured or they retired and when Serena and Venus in 2006 were so bad ??? Henin own Williams okay but i will switch for nothing Miami 08 6-2 6-0
Maria is always choke against Serena Mauresmo I hope it's a joke:eek:? 10-2 bye bye so it's a lil bit true and very wrong

Timariot
Sep 11th, 2008, 03:49 PM
It's always the same thing:

Navratilova & Evert benefitted from injuries of Mandlikova and Austin.

Graf was a benefactor of Seles stabbing.

Hingis' success was due to injuries of Graf and Seles being overweight.

Venus & Serena won a lot because Hingis and Davenport suffered a mental and physical burnout.

Henin & Clijsters in turn started winning after Williamses lost interest or were always injured.

etc.etc. There's always going to be lots of asterisks, it's a fact which has to be acknowledged. That is not a problem, problem are overzealous fans who argue "But with xxxxxx it's different!"

kwilliams
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I think only Henin could withstand Williams sisters. Other players depending on their days on and Williamses off.

I completely agree!

Galsen
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:07 PM
hmm another good question how many players won a GS at 81st Ranking?? and Wimbly 23rd ranking??? and eventually all GS between US 03 + AO 04 + US 04 + all GS 2006 William's weren't there

Destiny
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:09 PM
What a slap on the face

Who cares anyway they won go suck it :ras:

Dawn Marie
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:16 PM
This thread is so dumb that I' not wasting my time debating it. LMAO.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:16 PM
What I find interesting is that people never mention anything about Henin's meltdown period before she left. Remember Sharapova trounced her at the AO, Serena waxed her in Miami, Bartoli came from behind to steal her Wimbledon dreams, and Safina defeated he on clay. This was the beginning of the Henin decline and instead of staying on the tour to work things out like her competitors(Venus, Serena) she decided to take the easy road.

I think some people need to realize that all champions have a period when they're not winning consistently. Some give up but others stay the course and fight like hell. Serena won the U.S. Open because she refused to give up after having dismal results at the slams for YEARS. Those qtr. final loses would of easily discouraged many top players but Serena remained positive. There wasn't anybody past or present who was going to stop Serena from holding the U.S. Open trophy. If you can't accept that and move on then you're delusional at best.

:worship:

Mind you, these would be some of the same folkers bashing Serena for being gracious or not 'giving enough credit' and yet look at the threadstarter's content :lol:

Geisha
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:16 PM
I like where you are going with this, although I don't agree with some of your examples.

In my opinion, the successes of Venus and Serena is based more on their own states than the states of their rivals. Clijsters and Mauresmo? You have to be kidding me. Serena was way out of shape and was a wildcats at the 2006 US Open and she took a set off her, 6-0! Their games have never matched up well. Clijsters gave the sisters trouble, but only near the ladder stages of their rivalry. Kim began dominating just as Serena and Venus got injured and lost their consistency. Sharapova is the only person who I believe has the natural talent and abilities to play with the sisters, but she's been receiving beatsowns from then for three years now!!



It's always the same thing:

Navratilova & Evert benefitted from injuries of Mandlikova and Austin.

Graf was a benefactor of Seles stabbing.

Hingis' success was due to injuries of Graf and Seles being overweight.

Venus & Serena won a lot because Hingis and Davenport suffered a mental and physical burnout.

Henin & Clijsters in turn started winning after Williamses lost interest or were always injured.

etc.etc. There's always going to be lots of asterisks, it's a fact which has to be acknowledged. That is not a problem, problem are overzealous fans who argue "But with xxxxxx it's different!"

hankqq
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:17 PM
:bigclap: congrats guys-you've done it again :haha:

carling
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:47 PM
Yet another stupid-ass thread. If this statement is true of the Williams (which it clearly isn't) the same would apply to Ivanovic, Jankovic, and Sharapova. What about Steffi Graf? Would she had won all those slams if Seles had not been stabbed? Hell no! But nobody ever begrudges Steffi her accomplishments. She is revered as the great champion that she was. Why not give V&S the same respect?

I find it deeply disturbing the way some people on this messageboard go out of their way to down the Williams sisters. When someone mentions racism as a reason for the endless and unnecessary hits against them, people say you're playing the race card, but if shoe fits, fucking wear it.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but what's the motivation behind them? Some of you should really be ashamed of yourselves.

Serenita
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:56 PM
:wavey:

iWill
Sep 11th, 2008, 04:57 PM
What I find interesting is that people never mention anything about Henin's meltdown period before she left. Remember Sharapova trounced her at the AO, Serena waxed her in Miami, Bartoli came from behind to steal her Wimbledon dreams, and Safina defeated he on clay. This was the beginning of the Henin decline and instead of staying on the tour to work things out like her competitors(Venus, Serena) she decided to take the easy road.

I think some people need to realize that all champions have a period when they're not winning consistently. Some give up but others stay the course and fight like hell. Serena won the U.S. Open because she refused to give up after having dismal results at the slams for YEARS. Those qtr. final loses would of easily discouraged many top players but Serena remained positive. There wasn't anybody past or present who was going to stop Serena from holding the U.S. Open trophy. If you can't accept that and move on then you're delusional at best.

Yeah someone should've told Justine about the "NO BITCH-ASSNESS" rule maybe she'd still be playing. :shrug:

The Daviator
Sep 11th, 2008, 05:02 PM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

Serena won Wimbledon in 2003, and beat a certain Justine in the semis ;) (6-3 6-2)

Serena and Justine are the same age, Justine won Slams between 2003 and 2007, Serena won her first in 1999 and her most recent in 2008, and is still going :p

Anyway, as for the OP, Venus + Serena = The best.

The Dawntreader
Sep 11th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Serena won Wimbledon in 2003, and beat a certain Justine in the semis ;) (6-3 6-2)

Serena and Justine are the same age, Justine won Slams between 2003 and 2007, Serena won her first in 1999 and her most recent in 2008, and is still going :p

Anyway, as for the OP, Venus + Serena = The best.

What's OP?

Is it Omni-present? I suck at abrieviation:lol:

Timariot
Sep 11th, 2008, 05:09 PM
I like where you are going with this, although I don't agree with some of your examples.
In my opinion, the successes of Venus and Serena is based more on their own states than the states of their rivals. Clijsters and Mauresmo? You have to be kidding me. Serena was way out of shape and was a wildcats at the 2006 US Open and she took a set off her, 6-0! Their games have never matched up well. Clijsters gave the sisters trouble, but only near the ladder stages of their rivalry. Kim began dominating just as Serena and Venus got injured and lost their consistency. Sharapova is the only person who I believe has the natural talent and abilities to play with the sisters, but she's been receiving beatsowns from then for three years now!!

But of course. With Venus and Serena, it's whole different thing, right?

QED.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 11th, 2008, 05:18 PM
H2H in the last 4 years? 1-0

Awe yes...well that changes everything.:rolleyes:

It's convient to say what a player woulda coulda shoulda when they've already taken a bow and called it quits. I'll give you this much. Henin "might" have evened the h2h if they played five matches at RG.:tape:

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 11th, 2008, 05:58 PM
As for Venus? You'd probably need Mauresmo, Davenport, Henin or Sharapova playing at their best to stop her at Wimbledon...

Funny thing is, she's faced all those players at Wimby and shut them down (except for Momo, I think :scratch: ), so those players weren't stopping her a t Wimby.

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 06:03 PM
But of course. With Venus and Serena, it's whole different thing, right?

QED.

Get over yourself. Coming into this thread and jumping straight for the moral high ground. It's sickening :rolleyes:

Olórin
Sep 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM
What's OP?

Is it Omni-present? I suck at abrieviation:lol:

It means Original Poster :p Who is certainly not omni present :lol:

Marshmallow
Sep 11th, 2008, 07:27 PM
I feel flattered!!! I'm sure the OP won't admit it, but I'm certain this post was inspired by my thread from last year: Weak Field, Justine's Dominance - a question! (http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=328275).

Lets be real, the only major rival we can be talking about is Henin. Sharapova hasn' beaten Serena since 2004 and from Charleston we now all know Serena is in Maria head, belief to beat Serena aint there. Plus Maria has yet to even take a set of Venus at Wimbledon - Venus on grass is a momumental task.

Had Justine carried on playing at 2007 level would Vee and Ree still have won their slams... that's not an easy question to answer, Serena is better than 2007 and she wasn't annahilated by Henin in any of their meetings. You can't also forget that before being thrashed 6-0 6-2 or whatever it was, Henin had whooped her previous round opponents by similar scorelines and was announcing she was well again. She didn't even make the final at Wimbledon last year.

In any case, the aim back then was just to highlight some contextual factors that a lot of people over look - most likely because we all seem to prefer the simple facts. But what I learnt from the post last year was that, it boils down to shoulda, coulda woulda... and we overlook the simplest fact of all - weak or strong, what going on on the tour in reality ... is all there is. Justine benefited last year from a weaker elite feild (it was her stronger rivals fault for not staying fit and healthy). In reality, there no-one to be blame for Justine burning out... at the end of the day she just did not have the longevity of the WS in her cards.

It just is what it is... Venus won a record 5th wimbledon, Serena her 9th slam - undisputed best of the generation, and both sisers having won slams in 2007. If you stick to shoulda coulda woulda... any player that was won a slam since 2003 has benefit from Serena's drop in form. :shrug:

cehowardrx7
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

Spare me this crap. You play what you got. FYI, if Serena and Venus had not went off into "Starland" with the acting and the designing, it would have been a very different tennis world, you can be sure of that. What ever happened to your HOPES( the players you listed), it is all in the game. It is call "grits,guts,heart". Maybe the ones you listed didn't posses those qualities. :)

BTW, it is usual fanfare to diss a minority when they WIN!! :)

They did same thing to Jackie Robinson.

Check out what they did to WENDELL SCOTT, when he took a ragged jalopy and won a NASCAR race. They found a mistake in the scoring. Just like you are looking for mistakes in the genius of Serena & Venus!! Ha ha..

Read it and weep!! :)

GogoGirl
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Hey All,

First of all, congratulations to Serena Williams for winning her third US Open.

The bottom line is the Sisters are still here to take on all opponents/rivals/takers.

Serena crushed Justine in Miami this year. Justine has never beaten Serena so roundly. www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdBO-08f7jM

I also think Justine quit because Dinara beat her. I don't think she wanted to start losing to these power babes that decided to keep her on her back foot by hitting to her backhand. I always felt the best way to attack her was to hit to it. If she didn't have time to set up, she couldn't get the ball back as deep or as an offensive shot.

Anyballs, Serena and Venus aren't afraid of these players out here. They believe in letting their rackets do the talking. They go in feeling they should win every match - but realistically understand that at times, that is not going to happen.

I love the fact that they are still here. They've proved me wrong a couple of times. I thought they would be gone by now. I'm glad they're still standing and willing to deal with the tour. I think Serena might retire sooner like her mother said. Wouldn't it be something if she married that fine Common? Ooh-la-la.

Bijoux0021
Sep 11th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Dumb original post.. but some additional dumb posts in backlash. The only players that would have been able to challenge Serena at USO would be a HEALTHY and INSPIRED Maria Sharapova and Justine Henin. Sharapova wasn't healthy and Henin wasn't inspired. End of story.

As for Venus? You'd probably need Mauresmo, Davenport, Henin or Sharapova playing at their best to stop her at Wimbledon.. she hasnt had success elsewhere so I dont think it would make a difference other than that.
The way Serena has been bitch-slapping Sharapova lately, and the way Serena thrashed Justine at Miami, a healthy and inspired Sharapova and Henin would not have been much of a challenge to Serena at this year's USO.

Serena took a lot of bashings last year from her haters and the media for her "lucky shots" comment, so there's no way she would have let Henin got the better of her again if healthy. The 6-2 6-0 whipping Serena gave Henin in Miami was just a little taste of what to come. Serena said in her interview afterwards that she was disappointed it was not in a Grand Slam. So we all could sense how much she was looking forward to playing Henin this year. Lucky for Henin, she saw what was coming and got the good sense to quit.

Regarding Sharapova, when Serena plays her these days, Serena not only want to beat her, she wants to humiliate her. Too bad that Serena is not as motivated to beat everyone else on tour as she does Sharapova.

As for Venus, except for Mauresmo whom I believe Venus hasn't played at Wimbledon, Davenport, Henin and Sharapova haven't stopped Venus from winning Wimbledon playing at their best. It's the other way around.

Stop being delusional, AcesHigh!

Mashafaaaaan
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:20 PM
Regarding Sharapova, when Serena plays her these days, Serena not only want to beat her, she wants to humiliate her. Too bad that Serena is not as motivated to beat everyone else on tour as she does Sharapova.

I don't think Serena wanted to humiliate Sharapova during OA and Miami; she just played an awesome tennis because she knew she has to play like that to beat Maria.

améliemomo
Sep 11th, 2008, 09:34 PM
henin retirement opened the doors that were closed by her cause she was too strong for the kind of serena or venus williams.(US Open 07)
as for sharapova if she was at her best like she was at the AO,I think she would be the real challenge at this us open for both williams.
In both slam they won,they didnt face real opposition cause the best were not good enough and being ousted by lower players.
Venus didnt beat any real danger at wimbledon except serena in the finale. The same for serena.
So yes Im tempted to say that williams success is deserved but well helped by the lack of "real opposition" on the tour. A rival that has everything to challenge and beat them.

venus_rulez
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:05 PM
Venus didnt beat any real danger at wimbledon except serena in the finale. The same for serena.
So yes Im tempted to say that williams success is deserved but well helped by the lack of "real opposition" on the tour. A rival that has everything to challenge and beat them.



Even if they benefitted from "not beating any real danger" what would that matter anyway? Serena has won 2 previous US opens and Venus won Wimbledon the year before and 3 other times.

shell
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:18 PM
The way Serena has been bitch-slapping Sharapova lately, and the way Serena thrashed Justine at Miami, a healthy and inspired Sharapova and Henin would not have been much of a challenge to Serena at this year's USO.

Serena took a lot of bashings last year from her haters and the media for her "lucky shots" comment, so there's no way she would have let Henin got the better of her again if healthy. The 6-2 6-0 whipping Serena gave Henin in Miami was just a little taste of what to come. Serena said in her interview afterwards that she was disappointed it was not in a Grand Slam. So we all could sense how much she was looking forward to playing Henin this year. Lucky for Henin, she saw what was coming and got the good sense to quit.

Regarding Sharapova, when Serena plays her these days, Serena not only want to beat her, she wants to humiliate her. Too bad that Serena is not as motivated to beat everyone else on tour as she does Sharapova.

As for Venus, except for Mauresmo whom I believe Venus hasn't played at Wimbledon, Davenport, Henin and Sharapova haven't stopped Venus from winning Wimbledon playing at their best. It's the other way around.

Stop being delusional, AcesHigh!

I did not see a beating in the USO that would reflect the type of match against Justine you seem to keep imagining would happen. Serena played well, but your whole post indicates Serena would just roll through the whole field, including a health Pova and an inspired Justine, and beat them 0&0. I disagree, and have not seen play like that this year.

Maybe AcesHigh and I have been watching different matches than you.

Dave.
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:19 PM
Venus has won Wimbledon against her best rivals before, nobody was stopping her before so any absences or injuries had no effect on that whatsoever. However outside of Wimbledon Venus' results have remained average, so again nothing has really had an effect.

As for Serena and the rest of the top players, the retirement of Henin has clearly been good for them. Most of the top players who were losing to Henin last year have had improved results this year. So Serena beat her in Miami, that doesn't at all mean she would have repeated that in a slam, and the level Henin was playing in Miami was alot lower than what she produced in 2007.

shell
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Spare me this crap. You play what you got. FYI, if Serena and Venus had not went off into "Starland" with the acting and the designing, it would have been a very different tennis world, you can be sure of that. What ever happened to your HOPES( the players you listed), it is all in the game. It is call "grits,guts,heart". Maybe the ones you listed didn't posses those qualities. :)

BTW, it is usual fanfare to diss a minority when they WIN!! :)

They did same thing to Jackie Robinson.

Check out what they did to WENDELL SCOTT, when he took a ragged jalopy and won a NASCAR race. They found a mistake in the scoring. Just like you are looking for mistakes in the genius of Serena & Venus!! Ha ha..

Read it and weep!! :)

What on earth are you talking about?

shell
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:24 PM
henin retirement opened the doors that were closed by her cause she was too strong for the kind of serena or venus williams.(US Open 07)
as for sharapova if she was at her best like she was at the AO,I think she would be the real challenge at this us open for both williams.
In both slam they won,they didnt face real opposition cause the best were not good enough and being ousted by lower players.
Venus didnt beat any real danger at wimbledon except serena in the finale. The same for serena.
So yes Im tempted to say that williams success is deserved but well helped by the lack of "real opposition" on the tour. A rival that has everything to challenge and beat them.

I am also tempted to agree here. Serena has certainly upped the play level this year, but the OP has a point in that some of the major opposition is out now (Pova and Henin)

sammy01
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:27 PM
I think only Henin could withstand Williams sisters. Other players depending on their days on and Williamses off.

yeah i agree, it might also explain the fact that serena hasn't won a slam since '03 with henin in th draw.

youizahoe
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:48 PM
as a serena fan i gotta call you out on this though glenn....this is NOT cool....:o argue about everything on court and bla bla but do not say that death and what's not with her family and her infection were not important or serious :o that's very very disrespectful

I don't care, I'm harsh. Justine did things in the past that were disrespectful too. I just get angry when Serena or Venus get bashed, that they win and are fortunate to do so.

I take back what I said, but anyhow I don't like Henin and never will. But there's nothing worse than someone close being shot, I can tell, my best friend was shot a few years ago, and my grandfather died recently of a prolonged downhill battle with cancer, and I'm easier over the last, since we knew it would come anyway.

vettipooh
Sep 11th, 2008, 10:56 PM
I don't think Serena wanted to humiliate Sharapova during OA and Miami; she just played an awesome tennis because she knew she has to play like that to beat Maria.


And how does Maria have to play to beat Serena? :haha: :rolleyes:
Can we infer then, that Maria's best is no longer good enough to beat Serena?;)

Marshmallow
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:42 PM
yeah i agree, it might also explain the fact that serena hasn't won a slam since '03 with henin in th draw.

You know, players play other tournaments during the year, and Serena has won tournaments with Henin in the draw, noteably Miami.

On the whole I think it's a little funny how the tone of a lot of posts is that Henin was sort of unbeatable since 2003. Prior to 2007, it was one slam a year. In the other slams she played she was clearly not playing USO 2007 form... arguably Serena in 2008 form/or had she summoned AO 2007 final form could have beaten her, or Venus for that matter.

In any case, should, woulda, coulda tends to end with ... but did not/reality. Reality is Henin burnt out - mentally (which is what burnout is... thus the no will thing) soon after winning more than one slam since 2003. The tour is now what it is, and history what it is. Henin 7 slams, Serena 9 and counting.

The Dawntreader
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:56 PM
As far as the oringinal post goes, apart from Henin the other challengers were nowhere Venus and Serena at Slam level. Also the apparent 'in-built weaknesses' of Safina and Dementieva is a crappy argument because it doesnt detract at all from Venus and Serena winning Slams. If that's the argument, then half the draw have in-built weaknesses':lol:

IMO it just shows how great the WS's are, to be winning Slams consistently in the last two years.

sammy01
Sep 11th, 2008, 11:56 PM
You know, players play other tournaments during the year, and Serena has won tournaments with Henin in the draw, noteably Miami.

On the whole I think it's a little funny how the tone of a lot of posts is that Henin was sort of unbeatable since 2003. Prior to 2007, it was one slam a year. In the other slams she played she was clearly not playing USO 2007 form... arguably Serena in 2008 form/or had she summoned AO 2007 final form could have beaten her, or Venus for that matter.

In any case, should, woulda, coulda tends to end with ... but did not/reality. Reality is Henin burnt out - mentally (which is what burnout is... thus the no will thing) soon after winning more than one slam since 2003. The tour is now what it is, and history what it is. Henin 7 slams, Serena 9 and counting.

oh of course, i just think serena's biggest rival calling it quits is obviously only going to benefit her.

Bitter Blue Bong
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:12 AM
oh of course, i just think serena's biggest rival calling it quits is obviously only going to benefit her.


Just as Serena's absence after Wimbledon 2003 unquestionably helped Henin. This is not directed toward you, but there's certainly some revisionist history being written here. Henin was not some unstoppable force at any major other than the French. She never won Wimbledon, so I don't see how her presence was going to stop Venus from winning there. Her absence (especially as defending champ) at the USO helped Serena, just as her sole victory at the AO (in 2004) was helped by the fact that the defending champ Serena didn't play.

Justine still hadn't reached Serena's slam total when she retired, lost to her in the last hardcourt match they played (winning a total of what, two games?), so in the end, all that matters is that Justine retired with 7 slams and Serena has 9 slams and counting. Tennis is cyclical and we all know that. One person's injury/retirement is another's gain.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:25 AM
I dont want to show a disrespect for 2008 Wimbledon and USOpen performances of Serena and Venus. They won the trophies fair and fair. However, the WTA is in a truly awful state. Take a look at the condition of the former rivals and supposed up-and-coming challengers and tell me the Williams arent beneficiaries:


Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud

not to mention smaller scale disasters of players once touted as the "future of womens tennis" like Shahar Peer, Sania Mirza, Michaella Krajicek, Tamira Paszek, Lucie Safarova, etc. If the WTA was in any kind of normal shape I doubt the Williams would be able to winning GS titles, except maybe at Wimby. Safina and Dementieva are really the only players this year performing up to standard, but both suffer from serious built-in weaknesses that kept them from winning a GS this year.

No different from Justine & Kim taking advantage of the WS who, during those years, were either absent from the tour or injured most of the time and out of form. Now they are healthy. :shrug: Last time Serena played Justine, she bagelled her. Last time Serena played Maria, she whipped her like a step child for the, oh I don't know, third or fourth time in a row. Anyone who is the best in the field is going to take advantage when other players who are not at their best or gone from the tour.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:27 AM
WTA sucks this days so much but they were the best at Wimbledon and Us Open. I just don't see better player at Wimbledon then Williams and Serena was too good in NY.

Probably Venus or Serena would win Wimbledon anyway but i don't think Serena would win Us Open with Clijsters, Henin, Sharapova and Mauresmo in top form.

The only time Henin or anyone else beat Serena or Vee on hardcourt or grass was when they weren't in top form.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:29 AM
:lol: considering how Serena just absolutely PWND Henin in Miami, I seriously doubt Juju wanted to See Serena on another hardcourt, but you know what, I'll give you the whole Serena thing and Henin not being around, cause no one can argue with how Juju PWND Serena last year at the slams, so..., "sauce for the goose," so to speak. VENUS, however, makes your claim look ridiculous, at least as far as Wimby is concerned. Venus has OWNED Wimby no matter who the comer. When she didn't she was injured or grieving. So, your claim holds no water when it comes to Vee and Wimby.

DF, Serena was not in top form last year during those three quarterfinal slam matches.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:35 AM
Get over yourself. Coming into this thread and jumping straight for the moral high ground.

Given the double standards exhibited in this thread, what's to expect?

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:36 AM
The only time Henin or anyone else beat Serena or Vee on hardcourt or grass was when they weren't in top form.
Wow, how convenient. :rolleyes:

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:36 AM
Just as Serena's absence after Wimbledon 2003 unquestionably helped Henin. This is not directed toward you, but there's certainly some revisionist history being written here. Henin was not some unstoppable force at any major other than the French. She never won Wimbledon, so I don't see how her presence was going to stop Venus from winning there. Her absence (especially as defending champ) at the USO helped Serena, just as her sole victory at the AO (in 2004) was helped by the fact that the defending champ Serena didn't play.

Justine still hadn't reached Serena's slam total when she retired, lost to her in the last hardcourt match they played (winning a total of what, two games?), so in the end, all that matters is that Justine retired with 7 slams and Serena has 9 slams and counting. Tennis is cyclical and we all know that. One person's injury/retirement is another's gain.

Fairly stated. We will never know if any of the GS titles would have turned out different if one of the top contenders didn't or couldn't play. In any event, we probably missed some great tennis that might have been played. GS stats are GS stats.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:52 AM
Coming from you, i'll take that as a compliment:cool:

Serena was number one in 2003, got injured and lost it to Kim in August. Justine became number one in October 2003 and finished the year as number one. She was number one in 2004 (from January to September), 2006 (finished the year as number one), 2007 (number one almost the whole year) and 2008 (from January until her retirement). Justine retired on 14th May 2008, Serena is number one again in September 2008.

Justine won her first Grand Slam in June 2003 and the last at US Open 2007. She won 7 Grand slams and beat Serena in 3 of them (RG 2003, RG 2007, US Open 2007). Since June 2003, Serena won 3 Grand Slams and never beat Justine to win them: AO 2005 (Justine’s injury, didn’t play) and 2007 (Justine’s divorce, didn’t play), US Open 2008 (Justine retired).

:haha: :haha: :haha: :tape::help:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:55 AM
One should not overlook that Venus was playing very well at the US Open and her loss against her sister doesn't change that. I equally can imagine her taking the title.

I second that.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:56 AM
Justine 2-7 -v- Venus Williams and you call that a major rival? Round these parts that's called Venus' bytch!

:haha: :haha: This is a good thread. It's good to see all WS fans coming together on this. :D

Mightymirza
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:56 AM
Serena maybe but not venus...

vettipooh
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:59 AM
oh of course, i just think serena's biggest rival calling it quits is obviously only going to benefit her.

But the tables were about to be turned, that's why justine quit.:shrug: Serena was starting to show great form again and justine saw/knew what was coming. The writing was on the wall, and Justine's answer was to quit while she was ahead. No harm in that. After that 2007 form, it would have been a disgrace to be subjected to ass whooping after ass whooping. When the going got tough, the weakling turned and ran.:lol:

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:02 AM
DF, Serena was not in top form last year during those three quarterfinal slam matches.

Then she needed to work on that form. Wimbly had some injury issues, but the other two were up to her.

And I think she has worked on her form and fitness, hence some of the more recent results. But you are entering the shoulda, whoulda, coulda arguement that has no basis.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:03 AM
Yet another stupid-ass thread. If this statement is true of the Williams (which it clearly isn't) the same would apply to Ivanovic, Jankovic, and Sharapova. What about Steffi Graf? Would she had won all those slams if Seles had not been stabbed? Hell no! But nobody ever begrudges Steffi her accomplishments. She is revered as the great champion that she was. Why not give V&S the same respect?

I find it deeply disturbing the way some people on this messageboard go out of their way to down the Williams sisters. When someone mentions racism as a reason for the endless and unnecessary hits against them, people say you're playing the race card, but if shoe fits, fucking wear it.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but what's the motivation behind them? Some of you should really be ashamed of yourselves.

Gotta spread some reputation around before giving it to carling again. :D

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:15 AM
But the tables were about to be turned, that's why justine quit.:shrug: Serena was starting to show great form again and justine saw/knew what was coming. The writing was on the wall, and Justine's answer was to quit while she was ahead. No harm in that. After that 2007 form, it would have been a disgrace to be subjected to ass whooping after ass whooping. When the going got tough, the weakling turned and ran.:lol:

this is the reason i realy don't like williams sisters fans. justine quit bcause she had had enough, i highly doubt, actualy i would go as far as to bet that serena and venus had absolutely nothing to do with justines decision.

just another ignorant post from a williams fan thinkng everyones elses life revolves around venus or serena because theirs does! :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:16 AM
Wow, how convenient. :rolleyes:

As it's convenient for the OP to state the exact SAME THING about the rest of the field, but I don't see you rolling your eyes at that. :lol:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:18 AM
Then she needed to work on that form. Wimbly had some injury issues, but the other two were up to her.

And I think she has worked on her form and fitness, hence some of the more recent results. But you are entering the shoulda, whoulda, coulda arguement that has no basis.

And, that's exactly what she did. :shrug:

If I'm entering the "you are entering the shoulda, whoulda, coulda arguement that has no basis", I'm in the same room as the OP.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:20 AM
this is the reason i realy don't like williams sisters fans. justine quit bcause she had had enough, i highly doubt, actualy i would go as far as to bet that serena and venus had absolutely nothing to do with justines decision.

just another ignorant post from a williams fan thinkng everyones elses life revolves around venus or serena because theirs does! :rolleyes:

And, that statement is the reason why the WS fans don't like YOU!!! :wavey:

vettipooh
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:21 AM
this is the reason i realy don't like williams sisters fans. justine quit bcause she had had enough, i highly doubt, actualy i would go as far as to bet that serena and venus had absolutely nothing to do with justines decision.

just another ignorant post from a williams fan thinkng everyones elses life revolves around venus or serena because theirs does! :rolleyes:

I highly doubt that's the real reason you don't like Williams Sisters fans...you're not man enough to reveal it.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: And if you're looking for ignorant posts, then you don't have to look too far...charity begins at home.:lol:

Uranium
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:23 AM
And, that statement is the reason why the WS fans don't like YOU!!! :wavey:

:worship:

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:24 AM
this is the reason i realy don't like williams sisters fans. justine quit bcause she had had enough, i highly doubt, actualy i would go as far as to bet that serena and venus had absolutely nothing to do with justines decision.

just another ignorant post from a williams fan thinkng everyones elses life revolves around venus or serena because theirs does! :rolleyes:

Sammy, you won't win this one :) You will just get blasted. But I agree with you on the point that Justine didn't retire because of the WS, singular or plural. Let them have their fantasies, it doesn't matter in the end.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:25 AM
this is the reason i realy don't like williams sisters fans. justine quit bcause she had had enough, i highly doubt, actualy i would go as far as to bet that serena and venus had absolutely nothing to do with justines decision.

just another ignorant post from a williams fan thinkng everyones elses life revolves around venus or serena because theirs does! :rolleyes:

Naah, he/she is just trolling. I think so anyway.

By the way, it is actually not well known that Seles stabbed herself. She knew that Steffi was about to turn it around and did not want to linger around to face that...:rolleyes:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:27 AM
Naah, he/she is just trolling. I think so anyway.

By the way, it is actually not well known that Seles stabbed herself. She knew that Steffi was about to turn it around and did not want to linger around to face that...:rolleyes:

Meanwhile, before Justine retired, she got thrashed by three different players in a row. It seems more likely that ours is less of a fantasy and more of a fact.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:28 AM
As it's convenient for the OP to state the exact SAME THING about the rest of the field, but I don't see you rolling your eyes at that. :lol:

OP? What or who is OP?

As a matter of fact, I made that very point in my first post to this thread, remember? Somewhat surprisingly, only person to dispute that was...a Williams fan. How about that.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Sammy, you won't win this one :) You will just get blasted. But I agree with you on the point that Justine didn't retire because of the WS, singular or plural. Let them have their fantasies, it doesn't matter in the end.

i know ;), none of them have disagreed with me they've just tried to insult me.

p.s not every williams fan is like this, sadly its way too many to be a coincidence.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Meanwhile, before Justine retired, she got thrashed by three different players in a row. It seems more likely that ours is less of a fantasy and more of a fact.

Now wait a minute. Didn't someone just claim that Justine retired because she knew that Serena was getting back to shape? Now it is because she was losing to everyone?

Uranium
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:31 AM
For the record, Justine retired because she was burnt out which led to the beat downs she received from the players this season and I am sure her knee injury(I think she had a knee injury can't remember) also made it hard on her.
But to say the WS success is because the players aren't there is stupid.
Venus- Wimbledon 2005 and 2007 beat top players like Maria, Lindsay, Ivanovic, and Sveta. Wimbledon 2008 beat Serena and Elena.
Serena in AO 2007 beat 6 seeds and beat Maria losing 3 games. USO beat a hot Safina, a confident Venus, and a determined JJ.
I think the whole retiring of their rivals is irrelevant.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:31 AM
Meanwhile, before Justine retired, she got thrashed by three different players in a row. It seems more likely that ours is less of a fantasy and more of a fact.

or you could stop being so blind to the fact that by dubai henin was already showing signs that she had had enough, and for her announcement to come so quickly after berlin tells you it had been something in her mind for a while. why am i bothering :confused:

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:39 AM
For the record, Justine retired because she was burnt out which led to the beat downs she received from the players this season and I am sure her knee injury(I think she had a knee injury can't remember) also made it hard on her.
But to say the WS success is because the players aren't there is stupid.
Venus- Wimbledon 2005 and 2007 beat top players like Maria, Lindsay, Ivanovic, and Sveta. Wimbledon 2008 beat Serena and Elena.
Serena in AO 2007 beat 6 seeds and beat Maria losing 3 games. USO beat a hot Safina, a confident Venus, and a determined JJ.
I think the whole retiring of their rivals is irrelevant.

Yes, on all counts. Justine was burnt out, Justine had a chronic knee injury (which I believe but do not know for fact had much more to do about her retirement than she has confessed), and in the end it has nothing to do about a rivals form, fitness or results - other than the obvious missing major rivalry. Goodness these threads get messy.

We need to just acknowledge that winning any GS is a hell of a tough feat.

southpaw58
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:40 AM
It is what it is. I could of said the same thing about NUMEROUS other Grandslam victories and also rank shifts.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:46 AM
Haven't gone to MTF lately, but I bet without checking that there is similar thread going on about Federer...

danieln1
Sep 12th, 2008, 01:51 AM
When I thought I had seen some dumbest threads ever, this one is the worst of all!
If someone put the head to head records of those players, you bet the williams sisters will have a winning record against the majority of them, and I think every player on that infamous list lost to a sister, so it´s bullshit this thread...

bridgepea
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:07 AM
By the same token it could be said that as a result of the Williams Sisters, players who were touted to be dominating the tour have had to retire. Justine Henin had a very good year in 2007 where she beat Serena in 3/4 majors. Does anyone really think that Justine would have been able to do that in 2008. I dont think so. The first thing that has happened this year with Justine/Serena was that Serena gave Justine just 2 games - 2 games and beat her as if she stole something. Sharapova, prior to the injury got beat by Serena. Mauresmo, got beat by Serena at Wimbledon. The fact is that the Sisters have always been a factor, they have always been there to rise to any and every channel. The problem is this and will always be this - there are no worthy challengers to the Williams Sisters.

spartanfan
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:10 AM
I'd say Safina is overperforming. That's all I want to add.
LOL. It's funny cause it's true.:lol:

HRHoliviasmith
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:21 AM
Naah, he/she is just trolling. I think so anyway.

By the way, it is actually not well known that Seles stabbed herself. She knew that Steffi was about to turn it around and did not want to linger around to face that...:rolleyes:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Aaron.
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:24 AM
Kim Clijsters: Quit the WTA at age 23
Justine Henin: Quit the WTA at age 25 (after owning Williams in '07)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 has been a non-year for her after Aus Open
Ana Ivanovic: Played like average Top 30 player at Wimby/USO
Amelie Mauresmo: Satisfied & complacent with her 2 GS in '06
Nicole Vaidisova: Supposed next WTA big star is a train wreck
Tati Golovin: Repeated injuries destroy her chances to be top player
Sveta Kuznetsova: Appears simply not to give a damn
Jelena Jankovic: The weakest #1 player in the history of pro tennis
Anna Chakvetadze: Her 2007 successes now appear simply a fluke
Martina Hingis: Her comeback had potential but ended with a thud





Lets refresh your memory since you seem to forgot the H2H's

Serena's H2H's of her so called rivals :tape:

7-1 Clijsters :lol:
7-6 Henin
5-2 Sharapova :rolleyes:
1-0 Ivanovic
10-2 with Mauresmo one of her wins coming on clay and one coming in 2006 :help:
4-0 Vaidisova your looking stupid now OP
2-0 Golovin
4-1 Kuznetsova
4-3 Jankovic
7-6 Hingis
51-20 H2H's over rivals with 12 losses coming from 2 players

so Serena has a winning H2h over all those players you mentioned so thier success is because they didnt play? Those H2H's prove you wrong and dumb

lets look at Venus

Henin 7-2
Clijsters 6-4
Sharapova 2-3 :sad:
Ivanovic 4-1
Mauresmo 5-3
Vaidisova 1-1 only win coming on clay
Golovin 0-2 only wins coming on clay
Kuznetsova 3-4
Jankovic 3-4
Hingis 10-11
Chakvetadze 2-1

43-36 vs Rivals

with Venus your argument is a little valid but not much Henin,Clijsters,Sharapova,Ivanovic,Mauresmo,Vaidis ova,Golovin,Kuznetsova did not beat Venus on grass.

about 10 losses from Venus come from clay but did she win the French Open? No she lost in round 3

Anyways your argument is dumb. Find another hobby WS won grandslams this year dont take anything away from it hater.

Bitter Blue Bong
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:37 AM
If someone put the head to head records of those players, you bet the williams sisters will have a winning record against the majority of them, and I think every player on that infamous list lost to a sister, so it´s bullshit this thread...

Kim Clijsters: 4-6 vs. Venus, 1-7 vs. Serena
Justine Henin: 2-7 vs. Venus, 6-7 vs. Serena
Maria Sharapova: 3-2 vs. Venus, 2-5 vs. Serena
Ana Ivanovic: 1-4 vs. Venus, 0-1 vs. Serena
Amelie Mauresmo: 3-5 vs. Venus, 2-10 vs. Serena
Nicole Vaidisova: 1-1 vs. Venus, 0-4 vs. Serena
Tatiana Golovin: 2-0 vs. Venus, 0-2 vs. Serena
Svetlana Kuznetsova: 4-3 vs. Venus, 1-4 vs. Serena
Jelena Jankovic: 4-3 vs. Venus, 3-4 vs. Serena
Anna Chakvetadze: 1-2 vs. Venus, 1-0 (retirement) vs. Serena
Martina Hingis: 11-10 vs. Venus, 6-7 vs. Serena
Lindsay Davenport: 14-13 vs. Venus, 4-10 vs. Serena

Combined record vs. Venus and Serena: 77-117 (.397)

PLP
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:43 AM
I don't think this thread is meant to diss Venus or Serena. It is just a different spin on what we already know IMHO, they have both outlasted all of their main, most interesting and talented rivals. As a fan of tennis it makes me sad because the rivalries just aren't there currently, but maybe Venus and Serena will continue their rivalry at least in the latter stages of slams. I know it's a bit off-topic, but can anyone think of a better current rivalry than Venus vs. Serena? Is any current rivalry even close? :confused:

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:51 AM
I don't think this thread is meant to diss Venus or Serena. It is just a different spin on what we already know IMHO, they have both outlasted all of their main, most interesting and talented rivals. As a fan of tennis it makes me sad because the rivalries just aren't there currently, but maybe Venus and Serena will continue their rivalry at least in the latter stages of slams. I know it's a bit off-topic, but can anyone think of a better current rivalry than Venus vs. Serena? Is any current rivalry even close? :confused:

jj vs either venus or serena, she realy gives them trouble and i would back her on clay over them both. its prehaps the only real rivalry there is in womens tennis right now.

RFSTB
Sep 12th, 2008, 03:53 AM
The same can be said of the opposite: The other players only rose to the top after the sidelining of the Williams sisters (due to a variety of reasons, injuries, personal interests, love life, parents' divorce, family tragedy...)

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:23 AM
The same can be said of the opposite: The other players only rose to the top after the sidelining of the Williams sisters (due to a variety of reasons, injuries, personal interests, love life, parents' divorce, family tragedy...)

that is being ignored ;)

kiwifan
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:25 AM
Bottom line the Sisters are better than everyone who isn't currently playing so I couldn't care less about who's missing.

When Venus and Serena are playing winning tennis, they beat everyone - check the head to heads!

I think Jelena J. is the only one including retired/injured players with a winning head to head and she was in the final where Serena played winning tennis and won. :dance:

Tennisstar86
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:36 AM
Kim Clijsters: Still only won 1 slam....
Justine Henin: Henin played 07... and Venus still WON wimbledon.... Serena won AO (granted neither Henin nor Venus played)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 was the same as 2007.... once again shes won a slam 1 every two years...
Ana Ivanovic: Overhyped....
Amelie Mauresmo: Was she ever a factor for the Willaims sisters? the year she won slams was when the WS werent playing well....
Nicole Vaidisova: She saw the warning signs to stay away from Radek
Tati Golovin: Never had a chance to be a top player....
Sveta Kuznetsova: 1 slam wonder....
Jelena Jankovic: actually has been playing great tennis and doesnt belong on your list
Anna Chakvetadze: people said last year she was a fluke. guess you should have listened....
Martina Hingis: Martina hasnt won a slam this century... You forget she was around when Venus won her first slams this wasnt any difference.

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 06:55 AM
The same can be said of the opposite: The other players only rose to the top after the sidelining of the Williams sisters (due to a variety of reasons, injuries, personal interests, love life, parents' divorce, family tragedy...)

Say It Again!!!

1+ :yeah:

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:01 AM
When I thought I had seen some dumbest threads ever, this one is the worst of all!
If someone put the head to head records of those players, you bet the williams sisters will have a winning record against the majority of them, and I think every player on that infamous list lost to a sister, so it´s bullshit this thread...

Very true, and ya know the "HATERS" always come with the "bullshit", that's all they got!!;)

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:09 AM
that's my point. The whole tour has crumbled apart, both the old and young generations. It's absolutley scary what has happened to the WTA in the last few years.

It is always scary to SOME PEOPLE when minorities show that ANYBODY can be good/great/champion given and equal chance to play.

Most likely you would like it to go back to the old days, whereas, miniorites couldn't get a equal shot to compete.. Sheesh, I recall when they said blacks couldn't play basketball...:lol:

Yes, I am that old..:lol:

Been around along time, heard the same bullshit over and over everytime a minority breaks a barrier..

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:10 AM
I don't think the knee-injury had was any cause for the retirement, Serena's knee injury was far worse, and it's close to becoming chronic, since she hurts it almost 2 times a year.

Justine, like Federer, had won too much in a short time, which causes oversatisfaction leading into burning out. But I think, if she would have come back after a break, she could have still give a hard time to Serena. Right now we could need something like that, since the only hard players left in the circuit are Venus, Dinara and Jelena.

Oh well, some are talking she might be back in '09. I'd do it if I was her, she's still #3 in my opinion.

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:16 AM
Kim Clijsters: Still only won 1 slam....
Justine Henin: Henin played 07... and Venus still WON wimbledon.... Serena won AO (granted neither Henin nor Venus played)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 was the same as 2007.... once again shes won a slam 1 every two years...
Ana Ivanovic: Overhyped....
Amelie Mauresmo: Was she ever a factor for the Willaims sisters? the year she won slams was when the WS werent playing well....
Nicole Vaidisova: She saw the warning signs to stay away from Radek
Tati Golovin: Never had a chance to be a top player....
Sveta Kuznetsova: 1 slam wonder....
Jelena Jankovic: actually has been playing great tennis and doesnt belong on your list
Anna Chakvetadze: people said last year she was a fluke. guess you should have listened....
Martina Hingis: Martina hasnt won a slam this century... You forget she was around when Venus won her first slams this wasnt any difference.

Yeah I do wanna add, if Kim had the toughness she had against Jelena or Serena, she would have beaten Henin in each slam final, but she was too nice to finish it off.

Serena Williams won the 2007 on motivation, not even a Venus or Henin would have beaten that, and I'd bet my life on it, if were possible.

We are quite unlucky that Kuznetsova can't hold her great form, or we would have had some serious entertaining matches!

Amelie Mauresmo is a great player, she can volley super well (when her ego is up and not down). She's kinda like Henin, but less mental tough and a bit less technical.

Jelena Jankovic she could be a slam-contest, if she cuts out her choking on the exciting moments, time and experience will help her with it.

Jakeev
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:36 AM
Kim Clijsters: 4-6 vs. Venus, 1-7 vs. Serena
Justine Henin: 2-7 vs. Venus, 6-7 vs. Serena
Maria Sharapova: 3-2 vs. Venus, 2-5 vs. Serena
Ana Ivanovic: 1-4 vs. Venus, 0-1 vs. Serena
Amelie Mauresmo: 3-5 vs. Venus, 2-10 vs. Serena
Nicole Vaidisova: 1-1 vs. Venus, 0-4 vs. Serena
Tatiana Golovin: 2-0 vs. Venus, 0-2 vs. Serena
Svetlana Kuznetsova: 4-3 vs. Venus, 1-4 vs. Serena
Jelena Jankovic: 4-3 vs. Venus, 3-4 vs. Serena
Anna Chakvetadze: 1-2 vs. Venus, 1-0 (retirement) vs. Serena
Martina Hingis: 11-10 vs. Venus, 6-7 vs. Serena
Lindsay Davenport: 14-13 vs. Venus, 4-10 vs. Serena

Combined record vs. Venus and Serena: 77-117 (.397)

:worship:

Too bad though nobody thought about doing this earlier in the thread which would have been gone by now:lol:

chuvack
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:16 AM
I don't think this thread is meant to diss Venus or Serena. It is just a different spin on what we already know IMHO, they have both outlasted all of their main, most interesting and talented rivals. As a fan of tennis it makes me sad because the rivalries just aren't there currently, but maybe Venus and Serena will continue their rivalry at least in the latter stages of slams. I know it's a bit off-topic, but can anyone think of a better current rivalry than Venus vs. Serena? Is any current rivalry even close? :confused:


A lot of people missed of my main points, which is that not only have the Williams sisters rivals evaporated, NEW RIVALS of the sisters from a younger generation have failed to emerged (and dont tell me Ivanovic or Sharapova or Jankovic has been a rival to the Williams sisters in 2008). The collapse of all these young players is for me the truly disturbing sign for the future of the WTA.

chuvack
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:26 AM
viral infection? If I recall correctly....and I do, she came back a muscle bound ball basher, the Cljisters swore she was juicing. you decide.:wavey:




and there are people as well who have sworn that Venus and Serena were juicing. So if I were you I wouldn't start playing that dirty innuendo game because it can be used against your favs as well, not only Henin.

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Venus has won Wimbledon against her best rivals before, nobody was stopping her before so any absences or injuries had no effect on that whatsoever. However outside of Wimbledon Venus' results have remained average, so again nothing has really had an effect.

As for Serena and the rest of the top players, the retirement of Henin has clearly been good for them. Most of the top players who were losing to Henin last year have had improved results this year. So Serena beat her in Miami, that doesn't at all mean she would have repeated that in a slam, and the level Henin was playing in Miami was alot lower than what she produced in 2007.

I just don't think Henin can be put in the same argument as Mauresmo or Sharapova. Henin was mentally injured, not physically. The reason she had a crap 2008 was because she didn't have it in her anymore - she was no longer a champion. If she continued to play tournaments, Serena would have beaten her eight times out of ten. 6-2 6-0 is unheard of for Henin. 6-4 6-0 is unheard of for Henin. I think Serena benefitted from the fact that Henin lost her motivation, but what kind of ridiculous argument is that? It's different to say that, you know, Sharapova was playing great this year, and then she got seriously injured, and now she's gone from the game. But, Henin is a non-issue for me.

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:32 AM
Kim Clijsters: Still only won 1 slam....
Justine Henin: Henin played 07... and Venus still WON wimbledon.... Serena won AO (granted neither Henin nor Venus played)
Masha Sharapova: 2008 was the same as 2007.... once again shes won a slam 1 every two years...
Ana Ivanovic: Overhyped....
Amelie Mauresmo: Was she ever a factor for the Willaims sisters? the year she won slams was when the WS werent playing well....
Nicole Vaidisova: She saw the warning signs to stay away from Radek
Tati Golovin: Never had a chance to be a top player....
Sveta Kuznetsova: 1 slam wonder....
Jelena Jankovic: actually has been playing great tennis and doesnt belong on your list
Anna Chakvetadze: people said last year she was a fluke. guess you should have listened....
Martina Hingis: Martina hasnt won a slam this century... You forget she was around when Venus won her first slams this wasnt any difference.

:lol: When Mauresmo was winning GS, Venus and Serena were barely playing. Golovin, please. Chakvetadze, please.

Louis Cyphre
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:33 AM
I can`t see whats the problem :scratch: The guy tells you that sisters are currently the best WTA players, that no one from the rest of the girls are real competition to them and you still act like a bunch of idiots. If its not simple enough for your brains like "she is a goddess" you can`t understand it. And you start with the same old song "haters"... reading some of the comments I`m asking myself are you a bunch of 10-15 y.o. kids who think that there is a world conspiracy against the sisters? Why you act so defensive when someone try to express a different opinion that there is a few players that match sisters tennis abilities?! Yes they are one of the best (currently the best no doubt) but without Clijsters, Henin , Sharapova, Hingis and Davenport its easy , there is no competition and no one says that its sister`s fault but it`s a fact. The WTA is just a joke right now and if Venus and Serena retire soon it will be like a club championship with no real TOP players. Dont you agree ?

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:34 AM
At the end of the day, the record books don't remember which potential greats decided to have babies or get injured or want to retire for whatever reason. The history books will remember the players who lasted the tough years, and won for decades. Venus and Serena are those players.

chuvack
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:35 AM
The only time Henin or anyone else beat Serena or Vee on hardcourt or grass was when they weren't in top form.


False assertion. Henin beat Venus at 2007 USO, and Venus was in top form - although Venus and all the Williams supporters tried their best to deny the fact, that Henin had simply run Venus into the ground in that match. Serena was also in top form at 2007 FO when Justine beat her (edit, sorry, not HC or grass).

Mashafaaaaan
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Lets refresh your memory since you seem to forgot the H2H's

Serena's H2H's of her so called rivals :tape:

7-1 Clijsters :lol:
7-6 Henin
5-2 Sharapova :rolleyes:
1-0 Ivanovic
10-2 with Mauresmo one of her wins coming on clay and one coming in 2006 :help:
4-0 Vaidisova your looking stupid now OP
2-0 Golovin
4-1 Kuznetsova
4-3 Jankovic
7-6 Hingis
51-20 H2H's over rivals with 12 losses coming from 2 players

so Serena has a winning H2h over all those players you mentioned so thier success is because they didnt play? Those H2H's prove you wrong and dumb

lets look at Venus

Henin 7-2
Clijsters 6-4
Sharapova 2-3 :sad:
Ivanovic 4-1
Mauresmo 5-3
Vaidisova 1-1 only win coming on clay
Golovin 0-2 only wins coming on clay
Kuznetsova 3-4
Jankovic 3-4
Hingis 10-11
Chakvetadze 2-1

43-36 vs Rivals

with Venus your argument is a little valid but not much Henin,Clijsters,Sharapova,Ivanovic,Mauresmo,Vaidis ova,Golovin,Kuznetsova did not beat Venus on grass.

about 10 losses from Venus come from clay but did she win the French Open? No she lost in round 3

Anyways your argument is dumb. Find another hobby WS won grandslams this year dont take anything away from it hater.

Why are you rolling Maria, she is the only one(except Venus) who beat Serena in GS final:worship:
About Venus H2H against Maria, you can cry because Venus has no chances ot beat Maria on hardcourts.:p

Louis Cyphre
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:37 AM
At the end of the day, the record books don't remember which potential greats decided to have babies or get injured or want to retire for whatever reason. The history books will remember the players who lasted the tough years, and won for decades. Venus and Serena are those players.

true and noone disagree with that :shrug:

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:38 AM
I can`t see whats the problem :scratch: The guy tells you that sisters are currently the best WTA players, that no one from the rest of the girls are real competition to them and you still act like a bunch of idiots. If its not simple enough for your brains like "she is a goddess" you can`t understand it. And you start with the same old song "haters"... reading some of the comments I`m asking myself are you a bunch of 10-15 y.o. kids who think that there is a world conspiracy against the sisters? Why you act so defensive when someone try to express a different opinion then there is a few players that match sisters tennis abilities?! Yes they are one of the best (currently the best no doubt) but without Clijsters, Henin , Sharapova, Hingis and Davenport its easy , there is no competition and no one says that its sister`s fault but it`s a fact. The WTA is just a joke right now and if Venus and Serena retire soon it will be like a club championship with no real TOP players. Dont you agree ?

How is Clijsters going to play with a child and no motivation? How is Henin going to play with 'nothing left'? Is Sharapova going to start serving with her left arm? Is Davenport going to send Jagger to an adoption agency? Is Hingis going to get a prosthetic foot? Is Mauresmo going to find a magical herb that heals her appendix surgery and allows her to compete fully? These players are not the problem. In every era, top players come and go. They reach their prime, and then go downhill. It is up to the younger generations to take their spot. Vaidisova, Golovin, and who else? So, obviously the best, lasting, and most talented players are left - Venus and Serena.

The Tour is not in poor shape. Two of the best GS finals in recent memory involved both sisters. They've won five titles this year, two doubles victories, and are finally putting tennis back on the map in the States.

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:40 AM
False assertion. Henin beat Venus at 2007 USO, and Venus was in top form - although Venus and all the Williams supporters tried their best to deny the fact, that Henin had simply run Venus into the ground in that match. Serena was also in top form at 2007 FO when Justine beat her (edit, sorry, not HC or grass).

The Henin/Venus match is debatable. I happen to think she wasn't injured or anemic or whatever, but I don't think she played her best. She hit many errors at the beginning of both sets, and the final three points of the match were unforced errors, as well. But, we can go on and on with this one.

Geisha
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Why are you rolling Maria, she is the only one(except Venus) who beat Serena in GS final:worship:
About Venus H2H against Maria, you can cry because Venus has no chances ot beat Maria on hardcourts.:p

7-5 in the third set in Miami, no?

Mashafaaaaan
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:44 AM
And how does Maria have to play to beat Serena?[/B] :haha: :rolleyes:
Can we infer then, that Maria's best is no longer good enough to beat Serena?;)

Are you fuckin' kiddin' me? Did u see their last meeting Maria almost beat Serena in straights sets and Serena played very well(always against Maria) you know as I know Maria's best level in unbeteable, why Maria didn't meet Serena during OZ:sad::sad::sad:

Mashafaaaaan
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:50 AM
7-5 in the third set in Miami, no?

Well, not no chances, but few chances:lol:

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:00 AM
False assertion. Henin beat Venus at 2007 USO, and Venus was in top form - although Venus and all the Williams supporters tried their best to deny the fact, that Henin had simply run Venus into the ground in that match. Serena was also in top form at 2007 FO when Justine beat her (edit, sorry, not HC or grass).

Serena wasn't at her best, at best Serena never loses, certainly not in 2 sets.

Mashafaaaaan
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:08 AM
Serena wasn't at her best, at best Serena never loses, certainly not in 2 sets.

Well, at her best Henin never loses too, same thing for Maria, Venus, Davenport. It's too easy to say that.
BTW can you tell me a match where Serena played well and lost ? Because when I read you, it seems Serena never play well when she lost:rolleyes:

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:17 AM
Well, at her best Henin never loses too, same thing for Maria, Venus, Davenport. It's too easy to say that.
BTW can you tell me a match where Serena played well and lost ? Because when I read you, it seems Serena never play well when she lost:rolleyes:

Hmmm. I can't really pick a match, when Serena loses it mostly caused by herself, errors etc... But FO 2007 wasn't her best level by far. I'd say wimbledon final '08, she was playing a bit better, but still not at her best.

Anybody knows, when Serena's playing her best, she never loses, that's what all greatest tennis legends are saying. Even when Serena's not at her best, it still takes most players to take a long time to beat them, and only one was able to do that, Justine.

Same for Sharapova.

Louis Cyphre
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:22 AM
Hmmm. I can't really pick a match, when Serena loses it mostly caused by herself, errors etc...



Do you have any idea how stupid and ridiculous that sounds :lol:

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:31 AM
Kim Clijsters: 4-6 vs. Venus, 1-7 vs. Serena
Justine Henin: 2-7 vs. Venus, 6-7 vs. Serena


I find it bit dishonest from many Williams fans to at same breath dismiss Martina's record against the sisters "because most of her victories came when Venus and Serena were still starting their careers" and at the same time tout their records against the Belgians.

Henin and Venus met only once after 2003, and Henin won that match in straights. Similarly, Venus and Clijsters met only three times after 2003, and Clijsters won two of those matches. Serena and Clijsters NEVER met after 2003. Ie. their "rivalry" skipped entire period of Clijsters' hardcourt dominance.

Of course, we can't KNOW if Serena would have continued to beat Clijsters all the time if draw deities had seen it fit for them to meet. I'm sure most people agree that in the end, she's the better player. However, common sense says that it is somewhat unlikely.I remind you that first 8 matches between Venus and Hingis went 6-2 to Martina. Had she retired at that point, would Hingis fans touted her dominance over next superstar Venus? I know I would have! Errr, crap, that doesn't make me look very good. :help: Umm...well, aaaanyways...the point is, that tables sometimes turn. Once upon a time, it was said that Federer was Hewitt's bitch: series was 7-2 in favour of Hewitt. They were of same age (Fed is six months younger) so there was no reason to expect that to change, right? Well, whaddayaknow, now the series is 7-14. Ooops.

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Do you have any idea how stupid and ridiculous that sounds :lol:

It's the truth. Get over it. Navratilova even said it. If Serena loses, it's mostly caused by making too many errors. Look at all her matches she lost, she made tons of errors.

Louis Cyphre
Sep 12th, 2008, 09:58 AM
It's the truth. Get over it. Navratilova even said it. If Serena loses, it's mostly caused by making too many errors. Look at all her matches she lost, she made tons of errors.

you forgot to add "lucky shots" too :devil:

youizahoe
Sep 12th, 2008, 10:01 AM
you forgot to add "lucky shots" too :devil:

There were some lucky shots, but that's the same for every player, you can't hit lucky shots when u want them. I don't blame a loss on that.

starin
Sep 12th, 2008, 10:12 AM
Were winning before, during and after..

pretty much sums it up. Been winning slams since 1999. and there's only been 2 years since then where neither won a slam. 2004- coming back from injury and the murder of their sister.
and 2006 where both were dealing w/ injuries and missed over half the year.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 12:15 PM
There were some lucky shots, but that's the same for every player, you can't hit lucky shots when u want them. I don't blame a loss on that.
Players' luck with her shots tends to be directly proportionate on time spent on practice courts... :)

Seriously, amount of errors players make tends to depends on amount of risks they take with their shot. Some players prefer to play it safe, some like to keep margins small. A player who takes lots of risks with her shots, cannot expect them to go in every time, and thus is bound to have "bad days". It's just something which has to be accepted.

Tennisstar86
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:26 PM
I find it bit dishonest from many Williams fans to at same breath dismiss Martina's record against the sisters "because most of her victories came when Venus and Serena were still starting their careers" and at the same time tout their records against the Belgians.

Henin and Venus met only once after 2003, and Henin won that match in straights. Similarly, Venus and Clijsters met only three times after 2003, and Clijsters won two of those matches. Serena and Clijsters NEVER met after 2003. Ie. their "rivalry" skipped entire period of Clijsters' hardcourt dominance.

Of course, we can't KNOW if Serena would have continued to beat Clijsters all the time if draw deities had seen it fit for them to meet. I'm sure most people agree that in the end, she's the better player. However, common sense says that it is somewhat unlikely.I remind you that first 8 matches between Venus and Hingis went 6-2 to Martina. Had she retired at that point, would Hingis fans touted her dominance over next superstar Venus? I know I would have! Errr, crap, that doesn't make me look very good. :help: Umm...well, aaaanyways...the point is, that tables sometimes turn. Once upon a time, it was said that Federer was Hewitt's bitch: series was 7-2 in favour of Hewitt. They were of same age (Fed is six months younger) so there was no reason to expect that to change, right? Well, whaddayaknow, now the series is 7-14. Ooops.

You mean Clijsters 2 month Dominance? I mean lets just be real....

2003 was not the start of Henin/ Clijsters Career... They both were play tennis in 1999.... one year after Serena's first year on tour.

People like to say oh... Henin didnt play great tennis until 2003... magically at the French open were she cheated and won. Wrong... Henin didnt start winning until Venus and Serena werent around.

Dave.
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:35 PM
It's the truth. Get over it. Navratilova even said it. If Serena loses, it's mostly caused by making too many errors. Look at all her matches she lost, she made tons of errors.

Errors don't 'just happen' all the time. They are caused by her opponents.

homogenius
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:40 PM
Hmmm. I can't really pick a match, when Serena loses it mostly caused by herself, errors etc... But FO 2007 wasn't her best level by far. I'd say wimbledon final '08, she was playing a bit better, but still not at her best.

Anybody knows, when Serena's playing her best, she never loses, that's what all greatest tennis legends are saying. Even when Serena's not at her best, it still takes most players to take a long time to beat them, and only one was able to do that, Justine.

Same for Sharapova.

:spit:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:48 PM
You mean Clijsters 2 month Dominance? I mean lets just be real....

2003 was not the start of Henin/ Clijsters Career... They both were play tennis in 1999.... one year after Serena's first year on tour.

People like to say oh... Henin didnt play great tennis until 2003... magically at the French open were she cheated and won. Wrong... Henin didnt start winning until Venus and Serena werent around.

people also ignore this :yeah:

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Well it wasn't like Venus and Serena couldn't beat those people. Actualy in the years after... 03/04, they barely played them.

eugreene2
Sep 12th, 2008, 03:00 PM
Henin and Venus met only once after 2003, and Henin won that match in straights. Similarly, Venus and Clijsters met only three times after 2003, and Clijsters won two of those matches. Serena and Clijsters NEVER met after 2003. Ie. their "rivalry" skipped entire period of Clijsters' hardcourt dominance.

Did this person just use Clijsters and dominance in the same sentence? I must have been in a coma during that period.

VishaalMaria
Sep 12th, 2008, 03:32 PM
False assertion. Henin beat Venus at 2007 USO, and Venus was in top form - although Venus and all the Williams supporters tried their best to deny the fact, that Henin had simply run Venus into the ground in that match. Serena was also in top form at 2007 FO when Justine beat her (edit, sorry, not HC or grass).


Justine was on top form, but Venus wasn't;

Justine had two days rest after her quaterfinal win against Serena [7-6 6-1]; in contrast Venus had less than a day rest after her late night win over Jelena [7-6 in the third]. Justine was therefore energised and in top form, Venus wasn't.

It's easy to say that both were playing their best when its been a good match, but in this case it simply isnt true. Venus has played better hard court matches before and after that semi-final in 2007; as a fan I can honestly say that.

The way I see it is, Justine had to [maybe] play her ultimate best to win and it's a good thing Venus made a match out of it. But in the grand scheme of things, it took a lot out of Justine to win the US Open, and a at what cost? Few months later she retired.

LudwigDvorak
Sep 12th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Basically...

Elena Dementieva is god and renders this entire argument pointless.

:yeah:

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 12th, 2008, 03:46 PM
Basically...

Elena Dementieva is god and renders this entire argument pointless.

:yeah:

hmm i guess we also overlooked this rather important fact

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:23 PM
I can`t see whats the problem :scratch: The guy tells you that sisters are currently the best WTA players, that no one from the rest of the girls are real competition to them and you still act like a bunch of idiots. If its not simple enough for your brains like "she is a goddess" you can`t understand it. And you start with the same old song "haters"... reading some of the comments I`m asking myself are you a bunch of 10-15 y.o. kids who think that there is a world conspiracy against the sisters? Why you act so defensive when someone try to express a different opinion that there is a few players that match sisters tennis abilities?! Yes they are one of the best (currently the best no doubt) but without Clijsters, Henin , Sharapova, Hingis and Davenport its easy , there is no competition and no one says that its sister`s fault but it`s a fact. The WTA is just a joke right now and if Venus and Serena retire soon it will be like a club championship with no real TOP players. Dont you agree ?

I fail to see how you are blind to the whole premise of this thread. It's spelled out as clear as day to you - The Williams sisters' recent success is only due to the retirement of the likes of Justine, Kim or the sidelining of Amelie, Maria. As a Serena fan, you think after having her win a slam and being on such a high, that I am supposed to be 'okay' with a thread that basically states she wouldn't have had this slam otherwise - that's supposed to be a compliment :scratch: I'm left asking myself how you can't see your logic is rather stupid. Serena is great but Henin is gone and Maria is hurt, jump for joy :bounce:

This thread wouldn't have appeared if Serena, or Venus for that matter, hadn't won a slam this year. Please continue not understanding of the intentional slight, goodness :help:

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:40 PM
Justine was on top form, but Venus wasn't;

Justine had two days rest after her quaterfinal win against Serena [7-6 6-1]; in contrast Venus had less than a day rest after her late night win over Jelena [7-6 in the third]. Justine was therefore energised and in top form, Venus wasn't.


The women's quarters at USO are played on Tuesday and Wednesday, semis on Friday, so Venus had almost two days off between her quarterfinal and her semifinal match. She lost fair and square and your excuses are irrelevant :wavey:

And please don't even get me started about her supposed "anemia".

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Errors don't 'just happen' all the time. They are caused by her opponents.


Exactly.


pretty much sums it up. Been winning slams since 1999. and there's only been 2 years since then where neither won a slam. 2004- coming back from injury and the murder of their sister.
and 2006 where both were dealing w/ injuries and missed over half the year.


Nice to see that the WS are one player again when it suits the WS fans :rolleyes:

Also nice to see that the excuses are flying again.

Fact is that since 2001, Venus has't won a single Slam outside of grass and since 2005, she hasn't even made a Tier II or above final off grass :spit: (Serena is admittedly much better in that regard) I know that the truth hurts but sometimes the Venus fans have to endure the sad facts.

AcesHigh
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Fact is that since 2001, Venus has't won a single Slam outside of grass and since 2005, she hasn't even made a Tier II or above final off grass :spit: (Serena is admittedly much better in that regard) I know that the truth hurts but sometimes the Venus fans have to endure the sad facts.

We're fine with that as long as she keeps collecting Wimbledon trophies and climbing the list of greats while other players have fallen by the wayside ;)

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2008, 04:55 PM
We're fine with that as long as she keeps collecting Wimbledon trophies and climbing the list of greats while other players have fallen by the wayside ;)


As long as she keeps losing early at the non-grass tourneys, I 'm fine with that, too ;)

Demska
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:03 PM
Agree 100% :worship:

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:05 PM
At the end of the day, the record books don't remember which potential greats decided to have babies or get injured or want to retire for whatever reason. The history books will remember the players who lasted the tough years, and won for decades. Venus and Serena are those players.

Can't be said any better than that. :yeah:

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Exactly.

Nice to see that the WS are one player again when it suits the WS fans :rolleyes:

Also nice to see that the excuses are flying again.

Fact is that since 2001, Venus has't won a single Slam outside of grass and since 2005, she hasn't even made a Tier II or above final off grass :spit: (Serena is admittedly much better in that regard) I know that the truth hurts but sometimes the Venus fans have to endure the sad facts.

Also, nice to see the HATERS at it again too!!:lol::lol::lol:

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Also, nice to see the HATERS at it again too!!:lol::lol::lol:


Yes, I dare to criticise the WS and their fans so I must be a hater ;)

brickhousesupporter
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:32 PM
For all the people arguing about this......You are only as good as your record says you are!

HippityHop
Sep 12th, 2008, 05:41 PM
As long as she keeps losing early at the non-grass tourneys, I 'm fine with that, too ;)

You might be fine with it. However, I'll bet that the people who count (the players on the tour) would gladly give up those non-grass tourney titles for a single Wimbledon.

bandabou
Sep 12th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Nonsense...the stats clearly show that it doesn't matter what era: Serena had few, if any rivals. Once she got past the QF of a major, didn't matter who was there or wasn't.

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 06:57 PM
Nonsense...the stats clearly show that it doesn't matter what era: Serena had few, if any rivals. Once she got past the QF of a major, didn't matter who was there or wasn't.

"once she got past the QF" :devil:
Just had to say it...the devil made me do it :)

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 06:58 PM
i know ;), none of them have disagreed with me they've just tried to insult me.

p.s not every williams fan is like this, sadly its way too many to be a coincidence.

:lol: We've all disagreed with you.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Now wait a minute. Didn't someone just claim that Justine retired because she knew that Serena was getting back to shape? Now it is because she was losing to everyone?

So, we're all supposed to be of the same opinion because we are fans of the same person? :scratch:

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:02 PM
:lol: We've all disagreed with you.

no you didn't, i said henin didn't retire because of the williams sisters, are you saying she did?

you all got pissy because i pulled up a deluded williams fan thinking life revolves around venus and serena.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:02 PM
or you could stop being so blind to the fact that by dubai henin was already showing signs that she had had enough, and for her announcement to come so quickly after berlin tells you it had been something in her mind for a while. why am i bothering :confused:

I think you are blind if you don't know that Justine is the type of person to get going when the going gets tough. She has always lacked virtue. One need only look to how she behaved on court. Besides, unlike you, I can't read minds. I can only go from her actions and her actions stated to me that she knew what she was about to be in for and she quit while she was still on top.

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:06 PM
I can`t see whats the problem :scratch: The guy tells you that sisters are currently the best WTA players, that no one from the rest of the girls are real competition to them and you still act like a bunch of idiots. If its not simple enough for your brains like "she is a goddess" you can`t understand it. And you start with the same old song "haters"... reading some of the comments I`m asking myself are you a bunch of 10-15 y.o. kids who think that there is a world conspiracy against the sisters? Why you act so defensive when someone try to express a different opinion that there is a few players that match sisters tennis abilities?! Yes they are one of the best (currently the best no doubt) but without Clijsters, Henin , Sharapova, Hingis and Davenport its easy , there is no competition and no one says that its sister`s fault but it`s a fact. The WTA is just a joke right now and if Venus and Serena retire soon it will be like a club championship with no real TOP players. Dont you agree ?

Spare me!! :lol:

Babe Ruth hit all the home runs, when the Negro league was kept out of MLB. Can't you see the point? You haters are the ones coming up with the excuses, not the Williams sisters' fans. We/they don't need any excuses, the trophies speak for us.

Not only that, the sisters learned how to play tennis in a back alley, with a bunch of used tennis balls, and a crazy old man reading out of a book coaching them.

Put that in your "hate cup" and suck on dat one for a while!!!:lol:

All we want to know is who won. And dat was Serena!!

Read it, and weep!!:lol:

You can keep all the excuses and trade them amongst you haters..

Thank you kindly, :lol::lol:

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:06 PM
I think you are blind if you don't know that Justine is the type of person to get going when the going gets tough. She has always lacked virtue. One need only look to how she behaved on court.

realy because she didn't give up when her mum died, didn't give up when it looked like the williams sisters would dominate in '02 eraly '03, didn't give up when sidelined with that disease thing she had, didn't give up when heavily critsized for pulling out of the oz open final. need i go on, she was a tough cookie any person who knew tennis knew this and also knew her fight and drive was 1 of her greatest assets. when this had gone she was a shell of herself.

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:08 PM
I think you are blind if you don't know that Justine is the type of person to get going when the going gets tough. She has always lacked virtue. One need only look to how she behaved on court. Besides, unlike you, I can't read minds. I can only go from her actions and her actions stated to me that she knew what she was about to be in for and she quit while she was still on top.

But this lacks logic...
You state that you can't read minds, but yet actions "speak" to you...as if you know what is behind someones actions.

Timariot
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:09 PM
You mean Clijsters 2 month Dominance? I mean lets just be real....


What? Clijsters was dominant hardcourt player through 2005 - won US Open and 7 other hardcourt titles, including IW+Miami. Surely people don't have this short memory?

2003 was not the start of Henin/ Clijsters Career... They both were play tennis in 1999.... one year after Serena's first year on tour.


I'm not even sure what the point here is, but back in 1999 Henin and Clijsters were losing to all kind of low-ranked players and seldom had a chance to play top names. By the way, Serena began to play in WTA events in 1997.

People like to say oh... Henin didnt play great tennis until 2003... magically at the French open were she cheated and won. Wrong... Henin didnt start winning until Venus and Serena werent around.´

Wow, thanks from sending this thread back to post #1. Whadda tool :rolleyes:

In fact, had you actually followed tennis instead of spending all your time writing to messageboards, you would have noticed that either Serena or Venus or both were playing on each of Henin's Slam wins except USO 2003. Mind you, they were not necessarily always playing very well, but didn't you just estabilish that it's enough that they are present? Big factor in Henin's ascendancy to #1 player was that she remodelled her forehand so that she could hit it deep with topspin and dictate the points, like an ATP claycourter. Of course, in RG2003 her, shall we say, questionable ethics, undoubtely helped her a bit, but she had straight-setted Serena on clay in their previous meeting, so it perhaps wasn't such a huge fluke despite everything.

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:16 PM
I think you are blind if you don't know that Justine is the type of person to get going when the going gets tough. She has always lacked virtue. One need only look to how she behaved on court.


You're telling other people that they are blind when it comes to Justine. That's ironic. :rolleyes:

zlove
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:19 PM
what a stupid thread thats probably already been discussed 10000000 times :smash: :yawn:
why cant people just accept that the WS will always be one of the top players regardless of the competition
get over it :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:30 PM
False assertion. Henin beat Venus at 2007 USO, and Venus was in top form - although Venus and all the Williams supporters tried their best to deny the fact, that Henin had simply run Venus into the ground in that match. Serena was also in top form at 2007 FO when Justine beat her (edit, sorry, not HC or grass).

No, what you're saying is a falsehood. Venus was not in top form. She may have just won Wimbledon, but she had some health issues in 2007 US Open. Namely, she was suffering from severe anemia and still gave Henin a hard time. Serena was not in top form at the 2007 French Open. Stop lying. She did not play any clay warm-ups before RG '07 and hardly any tennis after AO '07 because she had dental surgery.

cehowardrx7
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:31 PM
what a stupid thread thats probably already been discussed 10000000 times :smash: :yawn:
why cant people just accept that the WS will always be one of the top players regardless of the competition
get over it :rolleyes:

When a miniority wins big, haters always seek out some fault.

Example, when Tiger Woods won that last Major with a fracture leg, the HATERS said he was FAKING!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, that Serena and Venus have put down their side careers (acting/designing), they be kickin major butt!!:lol:

So, it is only natural that the haters come with the bullshit!!:lol:

I enjoy it...:lol:

By the way, I am a Seles fan too, and Graff would not have won all those slams if it wasn't for a real crazy hater stabbing Seles..

Dam, I got that one out....:lol:

But, it is big fun listening to the haters whine...:lol: :lol:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:35 PM
How is Clijsters going to play with a child and no motivation? How is Henin going to play with 'nothing left'? Is Sharapova going to start serving with her left arm? Is Davenport going to send Jagger to an adoption agency? Is Hingis going to get a prosthetic foot? Is Mauresmo going to find a magical herb that heals her appendix surgery and allows her to compete fully? These players are not the problem. In every era, top players come and go. They reach their prime, and then go downhill. It is up to the younger generations to take their spot. Vaidisova, Golovin, and who else? So, obviously the best, lasting, and most talented players are left - Venus and Serena.

The Tour is not in poor shape. Two of the best GS finals in recent memory involved both sisters. They've won five titles this year, two doubles victories, and are finally putting tennis back on the map in the States.

:worship::worship::worship:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:41 PM
Did this person just use Clijsters and dominance in the same sentence? I must have been in a coma during that period.

:lol::lol::lol:

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:41 PM
When a miniority wins big, haters always seek out some fault.

Example, when Tiger Woods won that last Major with a fracture leg, the HATERS said he was FAKING!!!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, that Serena and Venus have put down their side careers (acting/designing), they be kickin major butt!!:lol:

So, it is only natural that the haters come with the bullshit!!:lol:

I enjoy it...:lol:

By the way, I am a Seles fan too, and Graff would not have won all those slams if it wasn't for a real crazy hater stabbing Seles..

Dam, I got that one out....:lol:

But, it is big fun listening to the haters whine...:lol: :lol:

Howard - This arguement has been going on since the beginning of time, or rather since around 2000 - 2001. I see you have been around for 11 posts. Don't get so excited.

And having read your 11 post post history, 9 of them are nasty ones in this thread, and the other 3 involve calling people trailer trash.

Nice start. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:43 PM
I fail to see how you are blind to the whole premise of this thread. It's spelled out as clear as day to you - The Williams sisters' recent success is only due to the retirement of the likes of Justine, Kim or the sidelining of Amelie, Maria. As a Serena fan, you think after having her win a slam and being on such a high, that I am supposed to be 'okay' with a thread that basically states she wouldn't have had this slam otherwise - that's supposed to be a compliment :scratch: I'm left asking myself how you can't see your logic is rather stupid. Serena is great but Henin is gone and Maria is hurt, jump for joy :bounce:

This thread wouldn't have appeared if Serena, or Venus for that matter, hadn't won a slam this year. Please continue not understanding of the intentional slight, goodness :help:

OMG Kudos on this post. :lol: :worship::worship::worship:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:46 PM
And please don't even get me started about her supposed "anemia".

Please get started on her anemia Dr. Matt00. I'd love to hear this. :lol:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Yes, I dare to criticise the WS and their fans so I must be a hater ;)

You ARE a hater. :lol: Sooooooooo delusional, you are.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:48 PM
You might be fine with it. However, I'll bet that the people who count (the players on the tour) would gladly give up those non-grass tourney titles for a single Wimbledon.

Justine for one. ;) You know she'd gladly give up one of those RG's just for one Wimby. :haha:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:50 PM
no you didn't, i said henin didn't retire because of the williams sisters, are you saying she did?

you all got pissy because i pulled up a deluded williams fan thinking life revolves around venus and serena.

No, I'm saying she retired because she was scared shitless Serena was coming after her and she was right. :)

I'm not pissy at all. :)

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:52 PM
No, I'm saying she retired because she was scared shitless Serena was coming after her and she was right. :)

I'm not pissy at all. :)

:lol: :lol: :yeah: LMMFAO!!! :haha:

bandabou
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:53 PM
"once she got past the QF" :devil:
Just had to say it...the devil made me do it :)

:lol: Has a better strike-rate once she got past the QF than your idol.
12-2 in SF and 9-3 in F..only 3 players have beaten her after a QF and all went on to win the title.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:53 PM
denise you're totaly spamming this thread. you have an opinion, which is cool, as do others it may be the same as yours it may not, but you realy need to chill and let them have their opinion. to me at the moment it just seems like you doth protest too much.

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:54 PM
:lol: Has a better strike-rate once she got past the QF than your idol.
12-2 in SF and 9-3 in F..only 3 players have beaten her after a QF and all went on to win the title.

Somehow I think the irony was lost on you.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:57 PM
realy because she didn't give up when her mum died, didn't give up when it looked like the williams sisters would dominate in '02 eraly '03, didn't give up when sidelined with that disease thing she had, didn't give up when heavily critsized for pulling out of the oz open final. need i go on, she was a tough cookie any person who knew tennis knew this and also knew her fight and drive was 1 of her greatest assets. when this had gone she was a shell of herself.

Didn't her mother die before she even started playing professional tennis? :confused:

Why should she give up when the WS dominated in '00-'03? She didn't have anything to lose.

Why should she give up during '04 when she had "that disease thing", she was dominating and there were no Venus and Serena around?

:haha: She "didn't give up when heavily critisized for pulling out of the oz open final"? Because she gave up DURING the final. :lol:

Need I go on? And, I beg to differ...gamesmanship and cheating was her greatest asset, next to her talent. She was weak and too weak just to rely on her talent alone. A great champion never loses their fight.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 07:58 PM
But this lacks logic...
You state that you can't read minds, but yet actions "speak" to you...as if you know what is behind someones actions.

:scratch:

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Justine was on top form, but Venus wasn't;

Justine had two days rest after her quaterfinal win against Serena [7-6 6-1]; in contrast Venus had less than a day rest after her late night win over Jelena [7-6 in the third]. Justine was therefore energised and in top form, Venus wasn't.

It's easy to say that both were playing their best when its been a good match, but in this case it simply isnt true. Venus has played better hard court matches before and after that semi-final in 2007; as a fan I can honestly say that.

The way I see it is, Justine had to [maybe] play her ultimate best to win and it's a good thing Venus made a match out of it. But in the grand scheme of things, it took a lot out of Justine to win the US Open, and a at what cost? Few months later she retired.

:bowdown: You tell em Zaddy http://**************/forums/images/smilies/humor/smiley-cheer.gif

I think that's an important point that is often overlooked. Henin had a 2 setter, or 1 set from match reports (a lot of people say Serena stopped trying in the second), then 2 days off (or almost 3 days according to Matt01). Venus on the other hand, had to battle back from a set down against Jankovic of all people, edging it out in the third set. After this draining encounter, she had 1 day off.

Venus played well against Henin, but how much did she have in the tank? Questions were raised a couple of week earlier after her loss against Chakvetadze (Venus went from Wimbledon, to WTT to Fed cup). Lets also not forget she's had problems with Anemia. And all the while, their match was tight.

Considering this, I think to assume Henin would have won future matches is premature. But we'll never know - one player has quit/thrown in the towel, and the other has shown some incredible longevity.

Dave.
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:01 PM
How is Clijsters going to play with a child and no motivation? How is Henin going to play with 'nothing left'? Is Sharapova going to start serving with her left arm? Is Davenport going to send Jagger to an adoption agency? Is Hingis going to get a prosthetic foot? Is Mauresmo going to find a magical herb that heals her appendix surgery and allows her to compete fully? These players are not the problem. In every era, top players come and go. They reach their prime, and then go downhill. It is up to the younger generations to take their spot. Vaidisova, Golovin, and who else? So, obviously the best, lasting, and most talented players are left - Venus and Serena.

The Tour is not in poor shape. Two of the best GS finals in recent memory involved both sisters. They've won five titles this year, two doubles victories, and are finally putting tennis back on the map in the States.

I agree with most of the players you mentioned that have disappeared, but Davenport is 32 now with a baby and still playing part-time at least. But when she was playing full-time she didn't have any letdown like those others. She has had better longevity than Serena and Venus, and anyone else who has played in the last decade.


I think you are blind if you don't know that Justine is the type of person to get going when the going gets tough. She has always lacked virtue. One need only look to how she behaved on court. Besides, unlike you, I can't read minds. I can only go from her actions and her actions stated to me that she knew what she was about to be in for and she quit while she was still on top.

What a load of BS. Justine is one of the greatest fighters the game has ever seen. She has come through more than her fair share of difficulties before and during her career. If you really believe that Serena was the reason the then world number 1 retired then you are extremely biased or you just don't know anything. Justine was mentally and physcially burnt out by this year. The same thing happened before but she kept on playing and got a very serious virus from it.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Didn't her mother die before she even started playing professional tennis? :confused:

Why should she give up when the WS dominated in '00-'03? She didn't have anything to lose.

Why should she give up during '04 when she had "that disease thing", she was dominating and there were no Venus and Serena around?

:haha: She "didn't give up when heavily critisized for pulling out of the oz open final"? Because she gave up DURING the final. :lol:

Need I go on? And, I beg to differ...gamesmanship and cheating was her greatest asset, next to her talent. She was weak and too weak just to rely on her talent alone. A great champion never loses their fight.

great champions dont say their opponent hit lucky shots when shes just been beat either.

also serena will lose her fight to compete 1 day, does that mean she isn't a great champion.

darrinbaker00
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Venus and Serena's recent successes aren't due to the retirement/sidelining of their major rivals; their recent successes are due to the fact that they're both really, really good. Justine Henin didn't retire because she "saw Serena coming" and got scared; she retired because after being #1 for so long, making tons of money and reconciling with her dad and brothers, she no longer had the proverbial "chip on her shoulder" she needed to play her best tennis. Got it? Good.

OK, moderators, you may lock this thread now. THE OMNISCIENT ONE HAS SPOKEN! :worship:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:03 PM
denise you're totaly spamming this thread. you have an opinion, which is cool, as do others it may be the same as yours it may not, but you realy need to chill and let them have their opinion. to me at the moment it just seems like you doth protest too much.

That's your opinion. :yeah:

homogenius
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:08 PM
No, what you're saying is a falsehood. Venus was not in top form. She may have just won Wimbledon, but she had some health issues in 2007 US Open. Namely, she was suffering from severe anemia and still gave Henin a hard time. Serena was not in top form at the 2007 French Open. Stop lying. She did not play any clay warm-ups before RG '07 and hardly any tennis after AO '07 because she had dental surgery.

A "severe anemia" which didn't stop her from winning Wimby, play her best match outside grass since forever against Henin at USO and make the trip (just after USO) to Asia to play 3 MM in a row.mmm...

As for Serena and her dental surgery it was in February if I believe this :
http://www.zimbio.com/Serena/articles/4/Serena+Williams+can+party+but+can+t+write

So after that she still won Miami (and was in good shape)...
Oh and she DID play some clay warm-ups (at Charleston she retired against CHan, and she lost in QF of Rome in the tie-break of 3rd set against Schnyder).
Anyway, Serena didn't lose the match against Justine because of her form (which was not that bad, beating Safina in the 4th round 2 and 3).She just failed to show up mentally and Henin had just to be solid to beat her in straights.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:08 PM
And please don't even get me started about her supposed "anemia".

:speakles:

What was supposed about it? Venus even took a portion of the clay court season out this year to get tests done to ensure she wouldn't be suffering the health issues that have hampered her in the past, like in her match again Henin at the USO 2007 for example!

Madd666
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Didn't her mother die before she even started playing professional tennis? :confused:

Why should she give up when the WS dominated in '00-'03? She didn't have anything to lose.

Why should she give up during '04 when she had "that disease thing", she was dominating and there were no Venus and Serena around?

:haha: She "didn't give up when heavily critisized for pulling out of the oz open final"? Because she gave up DURING the final. :lol:

Need I go on? And, I beg to differ...gamesmanship and cheating was her greatest asset, next to her talent. She was weak and too weak just to rely on her talent alone. A great champion never loses their fight.

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player hits the ball on purpose AT the opposition when the opposition is at the net - oooh the irony. :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player has one of the most withdrawals from a match when losing :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player is a known juicer! Seems she's back on da juice again :tape:

You really are totally deluded! I'm not even a fan of Justine but fair's fair, come on, if you are going to enter into a debate at least look at what you are talking about objectively.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:10 PM
What a load of BS. Justine is one of the greatest fighters the game has ever seen. She has come through more than her fair share of difficulties before and during her career. If you really believe that Serena was the reason the then world number 1 retired then you are extremely biased or you just don't know anything. Justine was mentally and physcially burnt out by this year. The same thing happened before but she kept on playing and got a very serious virus from it.

Waa, waa, waa Somebody call the whambulance. :baby: Justine has always been weak with a low self-esteem. It was obvious in her life off court and on court. Serena is the sole reason she left. She is a tennis player and she knows when Serena is in form and she saw this in Miami. She knew her name was going along side Maria's name, in the "YOU'LL NEVER BEAT ME AGAIN, BITCH" column, along with a certified resolution stating, "Be it resolved, I Serena Williams will be taking your No. 1 ranking from you at a GS this year...NOW THEREFORE, be ready or be gone". :lol:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:16 PM
great champions dont say their opponent hit lucky shots when shes just been beat either.

also serena will lose her fight to compete 1 day, does that mean she isn't a great champion.

Yes they do, Serena said it about Justine, didn't you hear? :)

Serena will never lose her fight. She will retire one day though.

sammy01
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:19 PM
ok denise you're plain delusional, i give up.

darrinbaker00
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:20 PM
:haha: says a poster who's favourite player hits the ball on purpose AT the opposition when the opposition is at the net - oooh the irony. :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player has one of the most withdrawals from a match when losing :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player is a known juicer! Seems she's back on da juice again :tape:

You really are totally deluded! I'm not even a fan of Justine but fair's fair, come on, if you are going to enter into a debate at least look at what you are talking about objectively.

Serena is a bully (has quite a lot in common with her fans on this board I see - especially you) and the only way that she can win is because other players are shit scared of the way she looks. You imagine facing someone on the opposite side of the net who looks like this - it must be terribly frightening and must put them off their game! Unless you are Craybass, Sun, Srebotnik - all those scrubs that beat her :haha:

On top of that you've got the hairy unshaven armpits! Ewwwwwwwwwww :help: Does the woman have no pride? :lol:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7ym7eUhrhW-YVM:http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/greyhawk/images/ape.gif
Two-and-out for you.....

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:21 PM
ok denise you're plain delusional, i give up.

No, you are. But unlike you and Justine...I never give up. :)

HippityHop
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:21 PM
:haha: says a poster who's favourite player hits the ball on purpose AT the opposition when the opposition is at the net - oooh the irony. :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player has one of the most withdrawals from a match when losing :lol::lol:

:haha: says a poster who's favourite player is a known juicer! Seems she's back on da juice again :tape:

You really are totally deluded! I'm not even a fan of Justine but fair's fair, come on, if you are going to enter into a debate at least look at what you are talking about objectively.

Serena is a bully (has quite a lot in common with her fans on this board I see - especially you) and the only way that she can win is because other players are shit scared of the way she looks. You imagine facing someone on the opposite side of the net who looks like this - it must be terribly frightening and must put them off their game! Unless you are Craybass, Sun, Srebotnik - all those scrubs that beat her :haha:

On top of that you've got the hairy unshaven armpits! Ewwwwwwwwwww :help: Does the woman have no pride? :lol:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7ym7eUhrhW-YVM:http://www.afn.org/~afn09454/greyhawk/images/ape.gif

I see the slimebag finally crawled out of it's sewer.

shell
Sep 12th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Venus and Serena's recent successes aren't due to the retirement/sidelining of their major rivals; their recent successes are due to the fact that they're both really, really good. Justine Henin didn't retire because she "saw Serena coming" and got scared; she retired because after being #1 for so long, making tons of money and reconciling with her dad and brothers, she no longer had the proverbial "chip on her shoulder" she needed to play her best tennis. Got it? Good.

OK, moderators, you may lock this thread now. THE OMNISCIENT ONE HAS SPOKEN! :worship:

THE OMNISCIENT ONE HAS SPOKEN! And that is good enough for me :D
Close this puppy down now....or else Denise will pull up every post from page 1 to page 16 just to make some comment.

We don't need to read it all over again.