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Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:32 AM
So with Serena's doubles gold and 3rd US Open (9th slam) who is greater?

Graf or Serena.


Hmm Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serena

kthxbye!

Slutati
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:34 AM
Tatiana

RenaSlam.
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:35 AM
Graf.

Next question.

Balltossovic
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:35 AM
Is this for real?

Volcana
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:36 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

starin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:36 AM
why is this even being asked??
someone feeling a little bitter that Serena won a slam??

Guess what Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Justine

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
why is this even being asked??
someone feeling a little bitter that Serena won a slam??

Guess what Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Justine

Aww you can't read :hug:
t.h.i.s t.h.r.e.a.d i.s a.b.o.u.t G.r.a.f v.s S.e.r.e.n.a

:wavey:

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Well I don't think Graf ever won the US Open in 2008, so I'm probably gonna have to go for the real winner of the US Open 2008: Venus Williams

HRHoliviasmith
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
graf, no contest.

Marty-Dom
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:42 AM
Of course Steffi is the top player in history of women's tennis.
But, Cat-Suit Serena, beats top form Steffi at least 4 out of 5 times. Today's Serena - hard to say.

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:43 AM
Uhm, Serena, by far.

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:43 AM
Of course Steffi is the top player in history of women's tennis.
But, Cat-Suit Serena, beats top form Steffi at least 4 out of 5 times. Today's Serena - hard to say.

LOL. how you say 'DEAD WRONG'

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:44 AM
Uhm, Serena, by far.

:hearts: the grand delusions of Serena fans :hearts:

alias
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:44 AM
Anna Kournikova beats both of them...

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:45 AM
Troll thread alert! :rolleyes:

starin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:45 AM
Aww you can't read :hug:
t.h.i.s t.h.r.e.a.d i.s a.b.o.u.t G.r.a.f v.s S.e.r.e.n.a

:wavey:

:lol:

You think I don't know the real reason this question is being asked?

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:46 AM
Troll thread alert! :rolleyes:

Quick question:
Do you feel the Serena > Justine thread is a troll thread?

starin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:47 AM
Quick question:
Do you feel the Serena > Justine thread is a troll thread?

No cuz it's a legitimate question. There was an argument that Justine could be greater before but now Serena has won another slam. So it needs to be reexamined. It's not ridiculous like comparing Graf to Serena.

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:48 AM
Quick question:
Do you feel the Serena > Justine thread is a troll thread?

No because it's true and Justine is actually pretty equal with Serena as far as achievements go so at least a rational argument could be made for both.

Comparing Serena to Graf is completely facetious and we know exactly what you are trying to do. :rolleyes:

irma
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:48 AM
Serena. Steffi's fashion ambitions only lasted a week or so.

égalité
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:50 AM
Who is Serena? Is she good?

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:52 AM
I feel like I am in heaven. Gplayer and Manatee both just said it is 'RIDICULOUS' to compare Graf and Serena.

:worship:Graf:worship:

Marty-Dom
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:53 AM
LOL. how you say 'DEAD WRONG'

Cat Suit Serena was the fastest, hardest hitting woman tennis player so far. The Serena that got to play Graf in 1999 was two levels below Cat Suit Serena. Watch some of her matches from 2002 USO- like the Davenport quarters. That was pretty much as dominating as anyone ever played against top class opposition. Same for 2003 Wimbledon.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:55 AM
Of course Steffi is the top player in history of women's tennis.
But, Cat-Suit Serena, beats top form Steffi at least 4 out of 5 times. Today's Serena - hard to say.

There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Danči Dementia
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:56 AM
Graf....hands down....there is NO question about it

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:57 AM
Truly a troll thread.

Could this thread be any more foolish. Graf of course.

Danči Dementia
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:58 AM
There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

:lol::rolleyes: you´ve posted a few times and one of your post says this....you are pathetic :rolleyes:

Wannabeknowitall
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Where's the are you out of you mind for this comparison selection?

I will bring up that I still believe that Serena can win 15-16 slams in singles in total.
Do I believe that that will be enough?
No.

Even if she won the box set I would still have to say Graf.

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:58 AM
There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

22 > 9

Simple math.

enchantrezz
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:04 AM
There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

For the sake of argument, one can only wish the stabbing never happened to shut up the haters. Even before that tragic incident happened, Steffi has already 11 grand slam singles titles under her belt. So please, no one would really know how things will turn out not only for Graf but also for Seles too.

starin
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:06 AM
I feel like I am in heaven. Gplayer and Manatee both just said it is 'RIDICULOUS' to compare Graf and Serena.

:worship:Graf:worship:

:weirdo: when have i ever said Serena was in anyway comparable to Graf??

abercrombieguy23
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:13 AM
You've got to be kidding me...

Graf pisses on Serena anyday

Balltossovic
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:17 AM
:weirdo: when have i ever said Serena was in anyway comparable to Graf??

I think they were trying to thank you for saying Serena isn't coparable to Graf:shrug:

Wojtek
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:22 AM
idiotic thread: Graf

ShirleyWilks
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:28 AM
graf was so overrated!

Dunlop1
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:38 AM
graf was so overrated!

If by overrated you mean the best to ever play on the women's field, then yes she is overrated.

ShirleyWilks
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:41 AM
If by overrated you mean the best to ever play on the women's field, then yes she is overrated.

Graf was very clearly demoted to No. 2 by Seles for 2.5 years before stabbing incident and Seles was cleaning up at grand slams. The stabbing incident is the only such incident I can think of where a fan of one player has injured another deliberately to heighen the status of his/her preferred player (and, sadly, achieved what he wanted!). To me this must be taken into account and makes Graf's accomplishments hollow. She's really overrated.

enchantrezz
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:07 AM
Graf was very clearly demoted to No. 2 by Seles for 2.5 years before stabbing incident and Seles was cleaning up at grand slams. The stabbing incident is the only such incident I can think of where a fan of one player has injured another deliberately to heighen the status of his/her preferred player (and, sadly, achieved what he wanted!). To me this must be taken into account and makes Graf's accomplishments hollow. She's really overrated.

You scared Serena might surpass Seles for the number of grand slam titles? they're tied 9-9 atm :angel:
Okay, if Serena wins more than Seles...blame Graf :lol:

mashamaniac
Sep 8th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Such a stupid poll!!!

TheFifthAvocado
Sep 8th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Jill Craybas

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Steffi Graf didn't have to compte with a sister just a year older than her. Her closest viable rival (4 years younger than her) was stabbed at the age of 19 when she was just starting to peak.

22>9 but I've never been one for just simply looking at numbers. I've always been a "why" person.

Steffi was GREAT. She's an all-time great. But I can honestly say that what Serena and Venus are achieving is far harder and greater given the context.

It's not a competition. But that's the way I see it.

SoClose
Sep 8th, 2008, 12:16 PM
:topic:
:worship:SERENA OF COURSE.

topi11
Sep 8th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Serena will win 10 more slams easily. Then maybe some more...

Martian Jeza
Sep 8th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Stupid poll and stupid answers by some of the WS fans again : not to be surprised to be honest...

Miss Amor
Sep 8th, 2008, 12:35 PM
serena

Dinayer
Sep 8th, 2008, 12:40 PM
OMG

:tape:

Kart
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:11 PM
Serena. Steffi's fashion ambitions only lasted a week or so.
:worship::worship::worship:

Stephieva
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:22 PM
Graf.

markdelaney
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:23 PM
why do people keep making polls where 2/3 of the people are under 25 and won't remember Graf at her peak ? It's like these top 100 songs of all time they do each year and 4 of the top 5 are by current bands/artists.

Graf won every slam at least 4 times so on achievement alone she is the greater.

At the end of Serena's career she may have won more slams so it's too early to compare them.

Sam L
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:31 PM
why do people keep making polls where 2/3 of the people are under 25 and won't remember Graf at her peak ? It's like these top 100 songs of all time they do each year and 4 of the top 5 are by current bands/artists.

Graf won every slam at least 4 times so on achievement alone she is the greater.

At the end of Serena's career she may have won more slams so it's too early to compare them.

Graf at her peak. When was that? When she was beating up mid-30s Navratilova or when she was beating up the bridesmaids in Seles's absence? And unfortunately, I'm old to have seen all that. :rolleyes:

Philbo
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:16 PM
Graf at her peak. When was that? When she was beating up mid-30s Navratilova or when she was beating up the bridesmaids in Seles's absence? And unfortunately, I'm old to have seen all that. :rolleyes:

LOL.. Cant believe we agree on something!!

DA FOREHAND
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Graf at her peak. When was that? When she was beating up mid-30s Navratilova or when she was beating up the bridesmaids in Seles's absence? And unfortunately, I'm old to have seen all that. :rolleyes:

When she came within a match of winning back to back Grand Slams:worship::worship:

How many times has Seles or Martina won the Grand Slam? The GRAND SLAM being all four majors the same calander year.



I'll give you a clue



zzzzzeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrroooooooo 0000000000000000000

123456789 (0)

n0ne

Nevuary

G-Ha
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:23 PM
Graf at her peak. When was that? When she was beating up mid-30s Navratilova or when she was beating up the bridesmaids in Seles's absence? And unfortunately, I'm old to have seen all that. :rolleyes:

when was that? perhaps 1988 when she won the Golden Slam. or maybe 1989 when she lost only 2 matches all year (86-2). or perhaps 1995-1996 when steffi won every single slam she entered. even 1999 wasn't bad, considering she spent much of '97 and '98 off tour due to injury, then has reconstructive knee surgery, and returns in '99 to win the French and makes the finals of Wimbledon.

steffi has so many years that are far superior to any other player, i can see how you'd have trouble narrowing down her peak. :)

cn ireland
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:26 PM
At the moment it'd definitely have to be Graf but who knows by the time Serena stops playing she could've passed her out.

sweetpeas
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:48 PM
Why!ask?

G&R
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:51 PM
graf without doubts

Marco Fernandes
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:55 PM
You gotta be kiding . That question is ridiculous.

Graf - 22 grand slams , 107 Sony Ericsson WTA Tour singles title
Serena - 9 grand slams , 32 Sony Ericsson WTA Tour singles title

Graf , by far

Marco Fernandes
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:59 PM
WS fans = DELUSIONAL

Thanx4nothin
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Graf's achievements >>>>>>>> Serena's
The opposition Graf had to play for the most part slightly < Serena's
Serena's potential tennis >>>>>>>> Graf's potential - I mean which great tennis player from the past hasn't said this - Evert has said it, Navratilova said it...etc etc Serena on top of her game is the best the tennis world has seen. Admittedly she hasn't been there.

Graf's current legacy ?? >>> Serena's - I'm not sure it is that much greater than you think, I mean Serena is a few slams from being in league with (not eqal to bth) BJK, Evert and Navratilova...I'd say that Serena won't ever level Evert and Martina on 18 but what the hey she plans to play until at least 2012 - thats 16 slams up for grabs...it's asking an infinite amount for her to win another 9/16 but is it asking too much for her to move comfortably into double digits...another 5/6 I dunno time will tell.

At the end of the day, Graf's career was her own and Serena has brought her own special brand of tennis to the game. Both are champions and if Serena does end comfortably in double digits with slams she will be remembered as one of the greatest of all time. When the GOAT question arises the result is only ever preference anyway, I mean I know of countless people who think Martina>>>Steffi, including BJK eventhough Steffi>>>>Slams than Navratilova. If Serena wins about 15 slams and a few more doubles and possibly more tier 1s etc...whilst having another go at the Olympics then I will say in my view she will be the GOAT, but I, being of sane mind body and health realise that others will disagree and have great cause to do so. I have respect for all the great champions, and this thread was nothing but an obvious ploy to get at Serena Williams fans. In case you haven't noticed, Steffi is done with tennis, sit back, get comfortable and watch the crowning of what may be another entrant into the all time greats...:drool:

Graf :worship:
But Serena also :worship:
Thread starter...how many slams do you have??:o

saint2
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:03 PM
Some people here have good sence of humor...But other don't have it at all...;)

Calypso
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Comparing the career of a 22 GS title retired legend with that of the winner of 9 GS with many years ahead of her and still winning big is kinda :weirdo:.

However, on tennis ability alone, I agree with the poster who said catsuit Serena was possibly the most devastating player women's tennis has ever seen.

zlove
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:20 PM
is this a serious question?
i love serena but... :weirdo:

OsloErik
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:28 PM
We have this discussion MAYBE when Serena wins her next French Open. Until then, there's nothing to talk about. Graf goes into the top 5 on every surface. I don't think anyone else, ever, can claim that. Evert comes closest.

If we're talking about them matching up...well, I think it would be pretty even. I'd give the edge to Graf on clay, Serena on a slow hardcourt, even on grass and fast hardcourt.

Xian
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:31 PM
lol not a fan of Serena or Graf

but to name Serena in the same sentence as Graf is ridiculous. Graf had talent and brain while Serena has the muscles. I mean you can also ask: Whats the better literature- Tolstoi or "the Sun":help::help:

comfortably.numb
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:39 PM
lol not a fan of Serena or Graf

but to name Serena in the same sentence as Graf is ridiculous. Graf had talent and brain while Serena has the muscles. I mean you can also ask: Whats the better literature- Tolstoi or "the Sun":help::help:
So you're saying that Serena simply "muscled" her way to 9 GS singles titles? You're the one without a brain. :o

Anyway, Graf > Serena. And that will never change as Serena is not nearly close enough to Graf in terms of accomplishments and probably never will be. This shouldn't even be a discussion but I've seen more moronic threads on this forum. This ranks up there though.

thrust
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:41 PM
graf, no contest.

CORRECT!!

OsloErik
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:48 PM
lol not a fan of Serena or Graf

but to name Serena in the same sentence as Graf is ridiculous. Graf had talent and brain while Serena has the muscles. I mean you can also ask: Whats the better literature- Tolstoi or "the Sun":help::help:

Let's be perfectly clear on this: Serena is one of the best tennis minds of the past 20 years. I'd put Hingis, Graf, and MAYBE Henin above her. But that's absolutely it. Serena has more in her arsenal than any player around. She simply has less use for it than players, like Hingis, who relied on it to win. Watch the way Serena opens up the court with her backhand. She places her serve better than any woman in history. Her footwork is exceptional.

The unfair quality of Serena's athleticism is that it hides how much actually thought goes into that stroke production, that point construction. In reality, it augments it. She's not a natural athlete like Venus or Graf. In order to get to the point where she can best exploit the tools of her game, she has to be at a very, very high level of fitness. The problem is that when she's there, very few players hang in long enough for her to demonstrate it.

Serena doesn't have a flashy game, like Henin or Graf, or even a bells-and-whistles game like Henin. But every one of her strokes is absolutely effective. Just for consideration: Serena's average serve speed hovers in the 100-105 range on 1st and 80-85 range on 2nd, pretty consistently, when she's fit. Henin's usually hovered in the 100-110 range on 1st and 90-95 range on 2nd. But Serena's 2nd serve, which is slower than the average 2nd serves of Mauresmo, Kuznetsova, Sharapova, Venus, and Ivanovic, is far more devastating. If it were a question of muscles, all five of those players have pretty brutish muscle power. Thing is, they don't have as good a handle on putting the ball in the perfect spot with letting their opponent know it. It's more than a function of muscle; it's a function of linking what she's worked for (her fitness and musculature) and her natural gifts (height, for example, and hand-eye coordination) with her mental prowess as a player.

If I were picking a doubles partner, I would pick Serena. Because she knows how to change up her play in situations that require changes. Hingis played singles like doubles. So did Navratilova. Serena plays like two separate disciplines.

markdelaney
Sep 8th, 2008, 09:06 PM
Graf at her peak. When was that? When she was beating up mid-30s Navratilova or when she was beating up the bridesmaids in Seles's absence? And unfortunately, I'm old to have seen all that. :rolleyes:


Last time Graf beat Navratilova in a slam was when Martina was 31, which by any intelligent person's knowledge is not mid-30s.

Martian Jeza
Sep 8th, 2008, 09:09 PM
is this a serious question?
i love serena but... :weirdo:

Nope, you only love glory :)

OsloErik
Sep 8th, 2008, 10:18 PM
I feel like I am in heaven. Gplayer and Manatee both just said it is 'RIDICULOUS' to compare Graf and Serena.

:worship:Graf:worship:

Floating up there with Graf's career.

OsloErik
Sep 8th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Cat Suit Serena was the fastest, hardest hitting woman tennis player so far. The Serena that got to play Graf in 1999 was two levels below Cat Suit Serena. Watch some of her matches from 2002 USO- like the Davenport quarters. That was pretty much as dominating as anyone ever played against top class opposition. Same for 2003 Wimbledon.

Fastest would be Graf circa 1989. Hardest hitting would be Pierce every 3 years or so from 1994-2005. Combining the two? Venus, 2001.

BEST hitting, I'll give you, because even though you were in a rally, nobody could do anything with those shots, and she had the most forward propulsion topspin from a woman in history (Nadal's topspin as opposed to Conchita's topspin, if people want to know what forward propulsion means). But don't use Davenport's loss as analogous to how Graf would play. Graf was among the best defenders in history. Davenport, among the worst. I know it's just an example of one of Serena's best matches, but there's literally no way to figure out how they would have matched up at their comparative bests. Graf was the finest mover ever, and she had a kill shot at least on par with Serena's best. Serena's a great mover, and she has kill shots on both sides, but I don't think either is quite as good as Graf's forehand. And I also feel like Graf would drive her crazy with the slice backhand. That's a rallying shot that Seles couldn't get under, and Seles could get under anything. Serena's got the better serves AND returns, but Graf could extend the points better. It's really hard to say.

And for a massacre of top-quality competition, I still have to go with Clijsters over Mauresmo at the 2003 Tour Championships final. Mauresmo had just knocked out Henin in the semis and went on to win Fed Cup the next two weeks, but Clijsters just tore her apart. It's the match that makes me think of how much that woman could have achieved had she not lost the 2001 French final.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 8th, 2008, 10:44 PM
Let's be perfectly clear on this: Serena is one of the best tennis minds of the past 20 years. I'd put Hingis, Graf, and MAYBE Henin above her. But that's absolutely it. Serena has more in her arsenal than any player around. She simply has less use for it than players, like Hingis, who relied on it to win. Watch the way Serena opens up the court with her backhand. She places her serve better than any woman in history. Her footwork is exceptional.

The unfair quality of Serena's athleticism is that it hides how much actually thought goes into that stroke production, that point construction. In reality, it augments it. She's not a natural athlete like Venus or Graf. In order to get to the point where she can best exploit the tools of her game, she has to be at a very, very high level of fitness. The problem is that when she's there, very few players hang in long enough for her to demonstrate it.

Serena doesn't have a flashy game, like Henin or Graf, or even a bells-and-whistles game like Henin. But every one of her strokes is absolutely effective. Just for consideration: Serena's average serve speed hovers in the 100-105 range on 1st and 80-85 range on 2nd, pretty consistently, when she's fit. Henin's usually hovered in the 100-110 range on 1st and 90-95 range on 2nd. But Serena's 2nd serve, which is slower than the average 2nd serves of Mauresmo, Kuznetsova, Sharapova, Venus, and Ivanovic, is far more devastating. If it were a question of muscles, all five of those players have pretty brutish muscle power. Thing is, they don't have as good a handle on putting the ball in the perfect spot with letting their opponent know it. It's more than a function of muscle; it's a function of linking what she's worked for (her fitness and musculature) and her natural gifts (height, for example, and hand-eye coordination) with her mental prowess as a player.

If I were picking a doubles partner, I would pick Serena. Because she knows how to change up her play in situations that require changes. Hingis played singles like doubles. So did Navratilova. Serena plays like two separate disciplines.

Henin, Hingis are at least a notch below Serena Williams.

don't get it twisted. One ran out of the game twice, and the other quit because she couldn't find the motivation.


Serena Williams is the best of her generation....Which is still well behing Steffi Graf

Dave.
Sep 8th, 2008, 11:11 PM
Graf had the greater overall career. Even if you add in Serena's tremendous doubles achievements, Graf still has a number of titles and grand slams more than Serena. There is no doubt that Serena played in a tougher generation though.

They played two matches which ended 7-5 in the final set, in 1999, a year where they both won grand slams. I think a 1988 Graf vs 2002 Serena would be similarly close.

But away from the matchup, when you look at what actually matters (their achievements), it is a complete mis-match.

Noctis
Sep 8th, 2008, 11:13 PM
Both :kiss:

OsloErik
Sep 9th, 2008, 12:41 AM
Henin, Hingis are at least a notch below Serena Williams.

don't get it twisted. One ran out of the game twice, and the other quit because she couldn't find the motivation.


Serena Williams is the best of her generation....Which is still well behing Steffi Graf

I'm talking purely about thought-process on court. Would you put them below Serena in terms of their tennis mind? Put a player with Henin's tennis thought-process on court with another 3 inches of height and 20+ pounds of muscle, I think she'd be pretty tough to beat. Hingis perhaps more so.

I think Graf had the perfect physique for tennis in her generation. Henin and Hingis didn't; they adapted, but they could only succeed because of what they could do in terms of placement, variety, etc. Serena's got all that, but I don't think I'd rate her placement or variety (except on the serve ;) ) as above Henin and Hingis.

OZTENNIS
Sep 9th, 2008, 12:58 AM
Who is the better PLAYER? Serena Williams > Steffi Graf
Who has the better RECORD? Steffi Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serena Williams

If Steffi played like she did in the 80's/90's now, she would struggle to be top 20 at best. But, if she grew up in this age, she would definitely have a bigger serve and a better backhand.

But, Steffi is, without a doubt, the greatest of the two. Her results were phenomenal, to say the least. No one will ever again achieve what she achieved.

LDVTennis
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:23 AM
If Steffi played like she did in the 80's/90's now, she would struggle to be top 20 at best. But, if she grew up in this age, she would definitely have a bigger serve and a better backhand.

The Steffi of '96 would be No. 1 in today's game.

No one in today's top 10 matches Graf's fitness level of '96.
No one in today's top 10 moves as well as Graf did in '96.
No one in today's top 10 has a shot like Graf's forehand of '96.
No one in today's top 10 is as determined and dedicated as Steffi was to play great tennis.

Mightymirza
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:25 AM
OMG WTF??? Is it even a question?? :rolleyes: maybe u cud have asked graf or WSs..:p Even then the answer would be stefanie :)

Fingon
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:39 AM
I've never been a Graf fan, but come on.
Serena a better player, based on????

There are many good players in paper, the great player are made on the court, winning matches, and titles.

Serena is probably the best player of her generation and beyond, but any comparisson is ridiculous.

22 grand slams, Serena will never get even close to that, how old is Serena? 26? she needs to win 13 Grand Slams, equivalent to winning all the grand slams in the next 3 years and then one more.

At an more realistic, but optimistic rate of 2 slams a years, she would need 7 years, playing consistently well every single one of them. Serena has never done that, she had a dominant 2002, then she won 2 slams in 2003 but has not been able to win more than one since, has shown flashes of her dominance, but not consistency at that level to win that number of GSs.

Serena excels on hardcourts and grass, and is good, but not great on clay, Graf was excellent on all surfaces.

And the statement "if Steffi played like she did in the ..." makes no sense, Graf played like that because that was the way tennis was played then, that's what she needed to win.

What makes you think that if Serena, or Venus, or Justine or Kim could adapt their game to win in today's tennis Graf wouldn't? (assuming she would be young enough to play at a high level of course.

True, Graf benefited of an aging Navratilova, but what player didn't benefit from a prior champion ageing? Serena herself did, Venus, Hingis, everyone, there is always someone good who retires at some point.

Also, Graf benefited from Seles' stabbing, yes, the competition between the two was fierce, Monica was winning more grand slams but their head-to-heads were pretty close.

No doubt that Monica was at Steffi's level, they were two great player, yes, Monica was taken away, but Arantxa, Conchita and others also benefited from that, but it was Graf who took the slams.

Yes, her biggest opponent was taken away, and she killed the rest, if you were comparing Monica with Steffi it would be valid point, but it's irrelevant against other players. Probably Graf wouldn't have won so many slams, but it was something out of anyone's control. You could say Serena was lucky there wasn't a "Monica" in her era.

mashamaniac
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:51 AM
Isn't serena 28?? according to wtatour.com she was born in 1980 which would be 28,of course at USO commentators said 27...which one is true?

gumoll
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:52 AM
what a dumb thread :spit:

rjd1111
Sep 9th, 2008, 02:59 AM
So with Serena's doubles gold and 3rd US Open (9th slam) who is greater?

Graf or Serena.


Hmm Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serena

kthxbye!


Graf was better than BJK. Serena is better than Graf.

And 20 years from now when the next great player comes

along, She will be better than Serena.

It is a fact of nature that athletes get better each

generation and I can't understand why this truth is

so hard for some people to grasp.

friendsita
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:02 AM
Serena

rjd1111
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:04 AM
No because it's true and Justine is actually pretty equal with Serena as far as achievements go so at least a rational argument could be made for both.

Comparing Serena to Graf is completely facetious and we know exactly what you are trying to do. :rolleyes:


Just how is Juicy's achievments equal to Serena's

fammmmedspin
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:04 AM
The Steffi of '96 would be No. 1 in today's game.

No one in today's top 10 matches Graf's fitness level of '96.
No one in today's top 10 moves as well as Graf did in '96.
No one in today's top 10 has a shot like Graf's forehand of '96.
No one in today's top 10 is as determined and dedicated as Steffi was to play great tennis.
Add to which.

The better players in the top 10 are just learning the merits of a sliced ball - for good reasons when everyone can return otherwise. Graf would slice them to death.
Graf had one of the fastest serves of her time around 100mph.. People she was faster than then are hitting 115 MPH now with new technology rackets.
No one in the current top ten with the exception of JJ (who can rarely hit a winner) can rally for very long - no one could sustain the ASV-Graf 20 minute game at Wimbledon.
Apart from the numbers the comparison with Serena has to ask who they beat and whilst Graf was beating the generations before and after her own in GS finals Serena's main opposition has been her sister.

mashamaniac
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:05 AM
Who is the better PLAYER? Serena Williams > Steffi Graf
Who has the better RECORD? Steffi Graf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Serena Williams

If Steffi played like she did in the 80's/90's now, she would struggle to be top 20 at best. But, if she grew up in this age, she would definitely have a bigger serve and a better backhand.

But, Steffi is, without a doubt, the greatest of the two. Her results were phenomenal, to say the least. No one will ever again achieve what she achieved.

Believe me if you're not a good player you won't make records (what are serena's record comparing w/graf?)! now steffi has the best records of the history of tennis men or women,that'd make everything clear!

sammy01
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:13 AM
Graf's achievements >>>>>>>> Serena's
The opposition Graf had to play for the most part slightly < Serena's
Serena's potential tennis >>>>>>>> Graf's potential - I mean which great tennis player from the past hasn't said this - Evert has said it, Navratilova said it...etc etc Serena on top of her game is the best the tennis world has seen. Admittedly she hasn't been there.

Graf's current legacy ?? >>> Serena's - I'm not sure it is that much greater than you think, I mean Serena is a few slams from being in league with (not eqal to bth) BJK, Evert and Navratilova...I'd say that Serena won't ever level Evert and Martina on 18 but what the hey she plans to play until at least 2012 - thats 16 slams up for grabs...it's asking an infinite amount for her to win another 9/16 but is it asking too much for her to move comfortably into double digits...another 5/6 I dunno time will tell.

At the end of the day, Graf's career was her own and Serena has brought her own special brand of tennis to the game. Both are champions and if Serena does end comfortably in double digits with slams she will be remembered as one of the greatest of all time. When the GOAT question arises the result is only ever preference anyway, I mean I know of countless people who think Martina>>>Steffi, including BJK eventhough Steffi>>>>Slams than Navratilova. If Serena wins about 15 slams and a few more doubles and possibly more tier 1s etc...whilst having another go at the Olympics then I will say in my view she will be the GOAT, but I, being of sane mind body and health realise that others will disagree and have great cause to do so. I have respect for all the great champions, and this thread was nothing but an obvious ploy to get at Serena Williams fans. In case you haven't noticed, Steffi is done with tennis, sit back, get comfortable and watch the crowning of what may be another entrant into the all time greats...:drool:

Graf :worship:
But Serena also :worship:
Thread starter...how many slams do you have??:o

this post is so delusional. the poster tries to lull you into thinking their being fair, whilst trying to push how great serena is and downplay graf at every turn.

serena fans only want serena to be compared to players shes better than, so no wonder they dont like this thread.

rjd1111
Sep 9th, 2008, 03:46 AM
Isn't serena 28?? according to wtatour.com she was born in 1980 which would be 28,of course at USO commentators said 27...which one is true?

Serena will be 27 later this month.

Belmont Lad
Sep 9th, 2008, 06:20 AM
Silliest poll ever made on WTA forums. As phenomenal as Serena is, she is leagues away from being in the same rarified air of Steffi.

alias
Sep 9th, 2008, 06:25 AM
:haha:
I thought this was a joke poll?! :confused:

Kampi
Sep 9th, 2008, 06:45 AM
Seriously, Serena is a great champion, no doubt. But when it comes down to Graf's achievements, she is not even close and never will be. Remember 22 GS wins and 107 tournament wins to beat for Serena. I mean you don't even need to be a fortuneteller to know, that Serena won't beat any of Steffi's tournament records. She only will beat her in price money soon, but that's not really comparable anymore, because todays payments, especially at the slams, are much higher than during Steffi's career.

OsloErik
Sep 9th, 2008, 07:12 AM
Graf was better than BJK. Serena is better than Graf.

And 20 years from now when the next great player comes

along, She will be better than Serena.

It is a fact of nature that athletes get better each

But do they really? There are some players who, with the advances in technology, really do translate across all eras. Margaret Court, BJK, Navratilova, and Graf are four prominent ones I can think of. They each had the attitude towards training, the hands, and the ambition to win in pretty much any era.

A stat I like to remind people of now and then is that Navratilova hit her fastest serve in 2004. That's how much the technology aids players. With the kind of conditioning Navratilova had in the mid-80's, I think she could easily have been a top, top player today. Granted, there is more depth in terms of the players that can BEAT the top, top players than there was back then, but there are a handful that I really do believe could hold their own, titles-wise, today.

Also, just to think about it from an athleticism point of view, the women's heptathlon has hovered in the 6700-7000 range since the 1980's. WITHOUT point-scale shifts, like there are in the decathlon. Not the same sport, but as a barometer of athleticism it's pretty indicative.

Sam L
Sep 9th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Last time Graf beat Navratilova in a slam was when Martina was 31, which by any intelligent person's knowledge is not mid-30s.

It's called a figure of speech. And by the way, what was Steffi Graf doing at age 31? That'll give you an indication as to whether 31 is a good age for a tennis player or not.

Graf's Golden Years 88-89 came when Navratilova and Evert were in their 30s and Monica Seles was a 14-15 year-old.

Graf's Second Coming 93-96 came when Seles was stabbed.

Let's not even go there about what an intelligent person should be thinking, shall we? :rolleyes:

Olórin
Sep 9th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Silliest poll ever made on WTA forums. As phenomenal as Serena is, she is leagues away from being in the same rarified air of Steffi.

Leagues away?

I've been avoiding this thread. But I've been seeing two extremes of the argument which I think are ridiculous. Obvious Graf has a superior legacy to Serena, but in no way is she leagues away. She moves in the highest circle of all time greats, which Serena does not yet occupy.

There's more to greatness than stats and records. Steffi dominated for longer, won more slams, was more of an all surface player than Serena. In fact to date, she has been a greater champion than Serena in every way.

But we've got to look at the context, and Steffi said herself in a german book called Grand Slam that women's tennis has more depth now than when she was playing. She said how hard it would be for any woman to do the Grand Slam again. She said it was a good thing for women's tennis. Women's tennis has more depth and in the first part of Serena's career when she won 7/9 of her slams, there were more elite players to challenge for slams as well. No I'm not saying this makes Serena greater than Steffi, and I'm not saying this makes Serena's achievements even comparable. But lets not delude ourselves and make out like Serena has to win 19 slams before she can be compared to Graf. Different achievements will be made in different eras. Serena needs to establish herself in her own era more securely before all this comparison with the greats of other eras starts.

Also, to the OP why only compare Serena and Graf? Steffi Graf is no greater a tennis player than Christine Marie Evert, Martina Navratilova or Margaret Court. You can't compare champions at point blank and you can't quantify greatness.