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Wannabeknowitall
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:38 AM
I know it just happened but the question will come up sooner than later.

Whose had the better career?
Discuss.

kwilliams
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:40 AM
So you wanted it to be sooner? :lol:

It's a tough call but because Serena has won all four slams I give the edge to her.

Volcana
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Do you want a career that's short, and incandescent, or long, but a roller-coaster? It's not better or worse, it's two careers that have been totally different.

In The Zone
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Serena held all 4 at the same time.

Wimbledon will be the kryptonite in Seles' resume. And also you know who.

Tennisstar86
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Serena's career isnt over.....

but Seles still has the lead IMO....she did so much in so little...and was taken out.

égalité
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:44 AM
Seles has 21 more titles. :shrug:

It's close though.

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:47 AM
While I believe their career achievements are close, the edge clearly goes to Serena.

They are equal in GS count, but Serena has won all four. Monica had a longer "dominant" period, and was probably more dominant at the time, but Serena has greater longevity.

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:48 AM
Seles has 21 more titles. :shrug:

It's close though.

I don't think that's enough to beat a Wimbledon though. It would be different if she had around eighty titles, but she only has twenty-one more.

Shvedbarilescu
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:53 AM
As things stand right now a decent case can be made in favour of both women. But it is too close for an undisputed opinion or anything close to it. In time if Serena sustains her current form she will overtake Seles but personally I still give the edge to Seles.

LeRoy.
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:53 AM
As a big Seles fan i have to say, Serena.

And i am so happy that it was a champion like Serena who equalled Monica's record and in all likelyhood will go ahead into two digits. :worship:

AcesHigh
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:55 AM
I'm pretty sure this was thoroughly discussed in another thread.

Seles>>Serena

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:56 AM
I'm pretty sure this was thoroughly discussed in another thread.

Seles>>Serena

If you saying that gets you to sleep at night, then so be it. But, I know those sour grapes are eating you up inside. :nerner:

Miss Amor
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:58 AM
Arguable,
serena fans and seles haters will say serena >seles
juju and demented fans will say seles> serena
seles fans wont care unless it is either www seles vs germans or www seles vs stefi
serena haters will 'lol u cant even compare them'

Renalicious
Sep 8th, 2008, 04:58 AM
It's Serena now I have to say. She's held all four majors while Seles hasn't. That just beats it I think.

AcesHigh
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:01 AM
If you saying that gets you to sleep at night, then so be it. But, I know those sour grapes are eating you up inside. :nerner:

Sour grapes at what? Seles beats Serena at every statistical category except she didn't win Wimbledon. If you think that one category is enough, then fine.. you have your obviously biased opinion.

I'll stick with Seles and her more weeks at #1, more titles, more YEC's, longer period of dominance, greater competition, etc.

Wannabeknowitall
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:06 AM
Sour grapes at what? Seles beats Serena at every statistical category except she didn't win Wimbledon. If you think that one category is enough, then fine.. you have your obviously biased opinion.

I'll stick with Seles and her more weeks at #1, more titles, more YEC's, longer period of dominance, greater competition, etc.

You know that when Seles was on tour, you only had to be in the top 16 to make the YEC.
You know that stat is shewed but yet you'll use it anyway.
Nice.

Dawn Marie
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:06 AM
Serena Willams, yet to say HAD is premature due to the obvious fact that Serena is still playing tennis.

Serena has 9 slams, countless titles, many doubles titles and 2 Gold medals. Serena has enough game to win more slams. Heck, she could retire with 15 slams. Of she has wimbledon titles. Seles will always be remembered for never owning the BIG one.

I like them both, but gotta state the obvious and give the edge to Serena.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:07 AM
It's Serena now I have to say. She's held all four majors while Seles hasn't. That just beats it I think.

Not by somebody stabbing her after she had won 10 of the last 12 major singles titles in the sport as a teenager.

There's a difference.

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:08 AM
Sour grapes at what? Seles beats Serena at every statistical category except she didn't win Wimbledon. If you think that one category is enough, then fine.. you have your obviously biased opinion.

I'll stick with Seles and her more weeks at #1, more titles, more YEC's, longer period of dominance, greater competition, etc.

How'd Seles have greater competition? She had ASV and Graf, which were formidable, but Navratilova was nearly in her mid-thirties. :rolleyes:

So, you think Davenport, Venus, Hingis, Justine Henin, Clijsters, Capriati, post stabbing Seles, Mary Pierce, Conchita Martinez, Amelia Mauresmo, aren't formindable competition. :rolleyes: And, just about all those players had better careers and were better players than ASV.

And Seles not winning Wimbledon is huge. It's the greatest prize in tennis. If you don't win it, you are really automatically out of the running of being an all-time great. Even then, it's debatable if Serena is greater than Seles. I hapen to think that now, she is. Sorry your personal hatred of Serena is having you see otherwise.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:08 AM
So you wanted it to be sooner? :lol:

It's a tough call but because Serena has won all four slams I give the edge to her.

Gunther Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

Marty-Dom
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:09 AM
Sour grapes at what? Seles beats Serena at every statistical category except she didn't win Wimbledon. If you think that one category is enough, then fine.. you have your obviously biased opinion.

I'll stick with Seles and her more weeks at #1, more titles, more YEC's, longer period of dominance, greater competition, etc.

All great points except the competition part. Serena dominated in much tougher field.
Serena - brighter star.
Monica- larger star.

starin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Can we agree to take the stabbing out of the picture??
This is a judgment based on what they actually achieved not what they could've or should've achieved.

Serena > Seles.

Same # of slams but Serena has won all 4 and held all 4 at the same time. That bumps her up to an elite group and is not something that can overcome by more # of singles titles or more weeks at no.1.

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:10 AM
You know that when Seles was on tour, you only had to be in the top 16 to make the YEC.
You know that stat is shewed but yet you'll use it anyway.
Nice.

Wannabe, it is actually pretty debatable but Seles not winning Wimbledon hurts her tremendously. But, Aces High is pretty biased, although he says otherwise, especially when referencing Serena. He is so bitter that Serena just beat her and bitter that Serena is on the scene because Venus might have well over 10 slams if Serena was not playing.

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Sour grapes at what? Seles beats Serena at every statistical category except she didn't win Wimbledon. If you think that one category is enough, then fine.. you have your obviously biased opinion.

I'll stick with Seles and her more weeks at #1, more titles, more YEC's, longer period of dominance, greater competition, etc.

:shrug:

In person are you like incredibly funny and charismatic? Because some of the stuff you say, I mean it can only come from a Serena fan, with a ridiculously amazing sense of humour.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:12 AM
You know that when Seles was on tour, you only had to be in the top 16 to make the YEC.
You know that stat is shewed but yet you'll use it anyway.
Nice.

Bottom line: Steffi Graf's record is inflated and Monica Seles' record is deflated.

Dawn Marie
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:13 AM
The record shows Seles as owning 9 slams and not wimbledon. She was stabbed in the back, but the reality is nobody will ever know what Seles would do if the stabbing didn't happen.

The facts are that Serena Williams has the better career and she isn't retired yet.

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:14 AM
You know that when Seles was on tour, you only had to be in the top 16 to make the YEC.
You know that stat is shewed but yet you'll use it anyway.
Nice.

How does that change anything? There wasn't a year Monica won the YEC where she was outside the top 8. And when she won, there wouldn't be a player outside the top 8 who could have taken her out in a prestigious tournament anyway.

No matter how you look at it, the YEC is still the most prestigious tournament outside the majors. It's still what a lot of players work hard to qualify for, no matter how the format has changed.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:15 AM
The record shows Seles as owning 9 slams and not wimbledon.
.

From 1990 through April 1993 Steffi Graf was limited to winning only 3 of the major singles titles in women's tennis (3 out of 16 played during this time) ... Monica Seles, as a 2-handed teenage phenom, won 11 of these 16 singles titles (including 2 of the 5 in 1990 .. 4 of the 5 in 1991 .. 4 of the 5 in 1992 .. and the only 1 prior to the stabbing in 1993).

Anyone who wants to belittle the knife stabbing -- or brush it aside as if it had no significance -- has all of this to overcome.

No question about it, Monica Seles was easily the best player in women's tennis for the first half of the 1990s.

G1Player2
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:16 AM
How does that change anything? There wasn't a year Monica won the YEC where she was outside the top 8. And when she won, there wouldn't be a player outside the top 8 who could have taken her out in a prestigious tournament anyway.

No matter how you look at it, the YEC is still the most prestigious tournament outside the majors. It's still what a lot of players work hard to qualify for, no matter how the format has changed.

That's true but even you know that Serena has eclipsed Seles now faboozadoo. :shrug:

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:16 AM
She was stabbed in the back, but the reality is nobody will ever know what Seles would do if the stabbing didn't happen.



What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Dawn Marie
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:19 AM
I stated a fact. Nobody will never know what Seles would have done because she was stabbed. Monica is my third favorite all time player, but dude Serena has surpassed her tonight. The competition is fierce. It got really fierce in the early 90's till the present.
You simply can't take away from Serena's surpassing moment becasue of that madman parche.

Also I think Seles is sick and tired of hearing about her stabbing. Stop throwing this up all the time. She may read the board and get upset.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:22 AM
I stated a fact. Nobody will never know what Seles would have done because she was stabbed.

That is just it ... we DO know what happened when the stabbing took place. Steffi found herself winning 4 major events she had not won in a long time because the one who had been winning them (Seles) had been stabbed in the back with a sharp knife.

How hard is THIS to figure out? Seriously.

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:23 AM
What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Everything you have mentioned in this thread is absolutely irrelevant. We are comparing the career achievements of Seles and Serena. "Could've, would've, should've" means nothing. Yes, I do believe that Seles' record was deflated due to the stabbing, but we can't prove it. That's the past. And, if you want to bring injuries and setbacks into the equation, we can also use Serena's injuries and personal troubles.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:26 AM
"Could've, would've, should've" means nothing. Yes, I do believe that Seles' record was deflated due to the stabbing, but we can't prove it. That's the past.

The INTENT of Gunther Parche was to debilitate Seles .. it was the INTENT of Gunther Parche that the #2 player of that time (Graf) benefit from Seles being stabbed.

How are you missing this?

maddogz48
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:29 AM
Serena is greater. Seles needs to go win a Wimby title to be in the same league as Serena at the moment.

I can't wait to see Serena win her 10th Slam and hear people still say Seles is greater.

Dawn Marie
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:31 AM
Serena had knee surgery that could of stopped her from winng 3 slams??? Serena's sister died that could of stopped her from winning 7 slams.

P.S. Look, I feel your pain. Seles just lost to Serena as the all time great. It's hard to take cause we are tennis nuts. I understand your concern and your postings cause you're hurt a bit. One day someone will replace Serena and it will probably be hard to admit. I will probably post silly crap to make me feel a bit better. It's all good.

Tonight is Serena Williams and her fans nite and the irrational post aren't going to stand in our way.

tenfednad
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:38 AM
And, if you want to bring injuries and setbacks into the equation, we can also use Serena's injuries and personal troubles.

I believe I would rather go out with my own injuries rather than have a Graf fan stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife. I haven't asked Serena Williams, Tracy Austin or Andrea Jaeger this, but I believe they would prefer to leave tennis with their own injuries than with a Graf fan's knife plunged deep into their back out of jealousy.

Stamp Paid
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Who cares?
Serena is number 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~{X}~
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Its great to have all 4 titles, but I also take into account that Seles has 21 more career titles and more than double more weeks at number 1 than Serena right now. Serena is still playing so she can definitely add many more to her resume. Seles of course is retired but both were different types of careers. They are both great.

And this is a side note for something else, I just wish the tennis world and everyone would stop hyping Wimbledon up so much. Its old, yes, but the US Open is only like 1 or 2 years younger than Wimbledon, in my mind, its just as important. It may just seem not that way cause the US Open has changed venues 3 times and Wimbledon hasn't. But really, as the tennis world has changed and Wimbledon is played on a surface that is only played on less than a month, I'd say Wimbledon really shouldn't be the most important or highest valued anymore. Its tired "tradition" and lack of moving forward is why its considered so great? I really don't see Wimbledon as the biggest and most important. Not by the leaps and bounds everyone says it is.

But enough bickering people! Serena and Seles both have 9 Grand Slams, be joyful to the many memories Seles has given us, and be joyful for all Serena has and the many more she will! :D

Volcana
Sep 8th, 2008, 05:42 AM
I believe I would rather go out with my own injuries rather than have a Graf fan stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife. I haven't asked Serena Williams, Tracy Austin or Andrea Jaeger this, but I believe they would prefer to leave tennis with their own injuries than with a Graf fan's knife plunged deep into their back out of jealousy.This point may be petty, but that wound was not 'deep'. Physically, Seles could have been back on tour in three months. It was the depth of mental wound that did the damage.

daffodil
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:54 AM
It's a tough call.

Monica has more years in the Top 10.
Monica has more years ending #1.
Monica has more weeks @ #1.
Monica has more season-ending championships.
They are tied in Grand Slam match winning percentage @ 85%.
Monica leads Serena in winning percentage overall 83% to 82%.
But...

Serena has greater longevity.
Serena has the career Grand Slam.
Serena's won 4 in a ROW.

Serena's won WIMBLEDON, no other tournament compares, & she won it twice.

I pick Serena.

daffodil
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:56 AM
I believe I would rather go out with my own injuries rather than have a Graf fan stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife. I haven't asked Serena Williams, Tracy Austin or Andrea Jaeger this, but I believe they would prefer to leave tennis with their own injuries than with a Graf fan's knife plunged deep into their back out of jealousy.

Serena did ask somebody to kill her sister during her prime, either.:rolleyes:

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 8th, 2008, 07:56 AM
Seles has 21 more titles. :shrug:

It's close though.

I have a feeling that if you asked Monica if she'd trade those other 21 titles for a Wimby, she'd say "yes."

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2008, 08:41 AM
I have a feeling that if you asked Monica if she'd trade those other 21 titles for a Wimby, she'd say "yes."

If those 20 something titles were the ones she won after being stabbed, I doubt she'd give up one of them. Those titles immortalized her and made her who she will be remembered for.

20 some titles are what a great deal of good players win in their entire careers (21 titles are 66% of Serena's total, for instance). And 120+ weeks at #1 (the difference between Monica and Serena) are an extraordinary accomplishment achieved by only Graf, Nav, Evert, Hingis, and Seles herself.

So what gives? Clearly these accomplishments are more significant than many of you are letting on.

And don't get me started on the YEC. The history books don't care that a few of the players don't care.

Kart
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:19 PM
That is just it ... we DO know what happened when the stabbing took place. Steffi found herself winning 4 major events she had not won in a long time because the one who had been winning them (Seles) had been stabbed in the back with a sharp knife.

How hard is THIS to figure out? Seriously.
Clearly less hard than figuring out that returning banned users that broken records draw attention to themselves far more quickly.

markdelaney
Sep 8th, 2008, 01:29 PM
Compare their records by the age of 19 and 5 months and then you'll know the answer.

thrust
Sep 8th, 2008, 03:18 PM
Its great to have all 4 titles, but I also take into account that Seles has 21 more career titles and more than double more weeks at number 1 than Serena right now. Serena is still playing so she can definitely add many more to her resume. Seles of course is retired but both were different types of careers. They are both great.

And this is a side note for something else, I just wish the tennis world and everyone would stop hyping Wimbledon up so much. Its old, yes, but the US Open is only like 1 or 2 years younger than Wimbledon, in my mind, its just as important. It may just seem not that way cause the US Open has changed venues 3 times and Wimbledon hasn't. But really, as the tennis world has changed and Wimbledon is played on a surface that is only played on less than a month, I'd say Wimbledon really shouldn't be the most important or highest valued anymore. Its tired "tradition" and lack of moving forward is why its considered so great? I really don't see Wimbledon as the biggest and most important. Not by the leaps and bounds everyone says it is.

But enough bickering people! Serena and Seles both have 9 Grand Slams, be joyful to the many memories Seles has given us, and be joyful for all Serena has and the many more she will! :D
SO TRUE! Wimbledon has been over-hyped for no real reason. Good Post overall!

LeRoy.
Sep 8th, 2008, 06:23 PM
Kart's name is no longer in BOLD. Does that mean he is no longer a mod/admin ? :p

Watching
Apr 27th, 2009, 04:14 PM
I'm not sure this is the most sizeable thread on this topic but it's the one I found. Given Serena claimed her 10th slam and added a few extra weeks at #1 is she definitely greater than Seles now?

Lucemferre
Apr 27th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Compare their records by the age of 19 and 5 months and then you'll know the answer.

Then Hingis is greater than Serena, venus, justine and even navratilova :weirdo:

mboyle
Apr 27th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Then Hingis is greater than Serena, venus, justine and even navratilova :weirdo:

I think the poster's point was we should only look at Seles pre-stabbing.

I am torn about this. On the one hand, the reality is the injury itself, while not superficial, was not career ending. If Seles had returned to the tour in good shape, she would have dominated again. She could have returned by mid 1994, but even if she had returned in 95, she would have been able to dominate for at least three more years, probably ending with 15/16 slams.

Instead, Monica ate her emotions, and as a result was able to win only one more slam. The fact that she did this stems directly from the stabbing, of course, but she did have a choice. Thus, I cannot excuse her post-stabbing record entirely. Serena has wasted some of her talent as well, to be sure. She should have more than fifteen slams by now, but doesn't work as hard as others.

debopero
Apr 27th, 2009, 04:49 PM
I'm pretty sure this was thoroughly discussed in another thread.

Seles>>Serena

could u explain? :lol:

mne22
Apr 27th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Cases can be made for both. Serena has the same amount of Australians, More Wimbledon, More USO. Seles has more French Opens. Serena has also won 4/4 to Seles' 3/4. At the slams, Serena has definitely had a better slam career.
Serena also leads Tier I titles 10 to 9.

Outside of slams/Tier I... #1 weeks, YEC, overall titles, and pretty much everything else go to Seles.

It is a matter of what you value more really does Serena's 2 Wimbledon + 1 extra Tier I + Serena Slam(winning all four in general AND holding them at the same time) > 2 more YEC, 20 extra titles(10 being Tier III and below), more #1 weeks, and a longer dominant period?

That is what this question really comes down to. Serena has built a career on basically winning at the biggest stages nearly 50% of her titles are from slams + Miami alone. It's a tough question I think had Seles captured Wimbledon and was missing another slam or even had a better record at Wimbledon I could go for her.

Matt01
Apr 27th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Given Serena claimed her 10th slam and added a few extra weeks at #1 is she definitely greater than Seles now?


No.

DA FOREHAND
Apr 27th, 2009, 05:37 PM
It's a tough call.

Monica has more years in the Top 10.
Monica has more years ending #1.
Monica has more weeks @ #1.
Monica has more season-ending championships.
They are tied in Grand Slam match winning percentage @ 85%.
Monica leads Serena in winning percentage overall 83% to 82%.
But...

Serena has greater longevity.
Serena has the career Grand Slam.
Serena's won 4 in a ROW.

Serena's won WIMBLEDON, no other tournament compares, & she won it twice.

I pick Serena.


h2h goes to Serena
Serena still adding to her legacy, and has two Wimbledon singles titles.

Monica looks better than Ezra.

Serena's career > Monica's

Matt01
Apr 27th, 2009, 05:41 PM
h2h goes to Serena


Irrelevant cause their matches all happended after Seles' comeback.

kiwifan
Apr 27th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Love Seles but it is obviously Serena.

I like to give Seles intangible credit for what happened to her but what you give to Seles you must take away from Steffi not Serena. :shrug:

AnywhereButHome
Apr 27th, 2009, 06:26 PM
serena>>>>>>>>>>seles

mne22
Apr 27th, 2009, 06:38 PM
Irrelevant cause their matches all happended after Seles' comeback.

So lets say Serena lost to Seles each of those times and had a 0-7 H2H with Seles. Do we say irrelevant because it happened after Seles' comeback?

I feel for Seles, and it seems she herself is getting over what has happened to her. However, the fact that Monica only won one slam after her stabbing can, in some ways, be contributed to Monica. Absolute refusal to get into proper shape or undergo a consistent training regimen until virtually the real very end -- 2002. Yes, the stabbing cost her slams, years of her prime, and countless other intangible, immeasurable hardships... but Monica could have worked harder in many of those years and put herself in a better position to be successful so we couldn't even be having this conversation by now.

By the time Seles was playing Serena, she could have gotten closer to her peak than what she was. It's not all that guys fault for all the shortcomings that happened to her ever and ever and ever. I love Monica, but this is too often used as the ultimate scapegoat. Oh why didn't Monica win that '02 SF against Hingis @ OZ. SHE WAS STABBEDEDEDED! Why did Monica lose this match, that match, etc.

Vlover
Apr 27th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Compare their records by the age of 19 and 5 months and then you'll know the answer.
:bs: The age and pace each individual wins majors is irrelevant to how many you eventually win.:tape:

Serena with double digits and winning all four majors is definitely above Seles now in my book.

nat75
Apr 27th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Comparing a normal injure with being stabbed is just plain silly. Would you guys even contemplate go back to your jobs if you were stabbed by a nutso on your desks right now??

Volcana
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:06 PM
Whose had the better career?Just so I'm clear, this is, 'Who had a better career?' NOT 'Who was greater?'

Steffica Greles
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:09 PM
I think now Serena's won more slams, we have to go with Serena.

thrust
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:37 PM
SO TRUE! Wimbledon has been over-hyped for no real reason. Good Post overall!

SO TRUE!

nat75
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:40 PM
You're quoting yourself?? :lol:

Kart
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:42 PM
Clearly less hard than figuring out that returning banned users that broken records draw attention to themselves far more quickly.

What really annoys me about this line is that it could have been great if it had made sense.

On topic, Serena has had a greater career.

It's no big problem - Monica is still a star :hearts:.

thrust
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:45 PM
I stated a fact. Nobody will never know what Seles would have done because she was stabbed. Monica is my third favorite all time player, but dude Serena has surpassed her tonight. The competition is fierce. It got really fierce in the early 90's till the present.
You simply can't take away from Serena's surpassing moment becasue of that madman parche.

Also I think Seles is sick and tired of hearing about her stabbing. Stop throwing this up all the time. She may read the board and get upset.

Had she not been stabbed she probably would not have become depressed which caused the eating disorder which caused her to be overweight and out of shape when she returned to the WTA tour. Had she been in her best shape she probably would have won the first USO final against Graf and the FO final against ASV, at least.

SAEKeithSerena
Apr 27th, 2009, 09:52 PM
serena>seles now that she has ten slams.

Volcana
Apr 27th, 2009, 10:26 PM
Compare their records by the age of 19 and 5 months and then you'll know the answer.Martina Navratilova won her first slam singles title at 23 21. Is your argument that Seles had a better career (the topic of the thread) than Navratilova becaise she won at a younger age?

Dawn Marie
Apr 27th, 2009, 10:38 PM
Serena is still active. So to make up a thread about who HAD the better career is not logical to debate. Serena is not retired and Seles has already left the singles game for good.

youizahoe
Apr 27th, 2009, 10:43 PM
Give serena the FO and she'll be clearly leading Seles with a multiple career slam.

Dawn Marie
Apr 27th, 2009, 10:44 PM
Had she not been stabbed she probably would not have become depressed which caused the eating disorder which caused her to be overweight and out of shape when she returned to the WTA tour. Had she been in her best shape she probably would have won the first USO final against Graf and the FO final against ASV, at least.
Nobody knows what the effects of the stabbing had on her personally but Seles. Personally, if she was mentally fit enough to come back and play singles after the stabbing then why not get in shape? I refuse to blame the stabbing on her eating disorder. It was many factors. I am not going to make excuses for Monica either. She either had the choice to get in the best shape of her life or not. Playing the victim will get you nowhere. Seles fans just refuse to stop playing Monica as this victim. She is a survivor.

Volcana
Apr 27th, 2009, 10:53 PM
Here are their respective career records.
........................ Seles ... S Williams
...........................................
slam titles singles ..... 9 ...... 10
slam titles doubles ..... 0 ...... 7 *
(slam doubles played ... 14 ...... 17)
slam titles mixed ....... 0 ...... 2

career titles singles ... 53 ..... 33
career titles doubles ... 6 ...... 13
Olympic singles ......... 0 ...... 0
Olympic doubles ......... 0 ...... 2

Weeks-at-#1 ............. 178 .... 60(?) I have no idea

h2h ..................... 1 ...... 4

Fed Cup champ ........... ? ...... 1 (?)
__________________________________________________ _________
One might recall, Monica Seles actually played doubles. Quite possibly more than Serena. Serena played 17 doubles slams to Monica's 14, but Seles more often played non-slam doubles. And successfully. She won Rome a couple times. If you include their respective doubles careers, this isn't really a discussion.
__________________________________________________ ____

But to just look at singles

........................ Seles .... S Williams
...........................................
slam titles singles ...... 9 ...... 10
career titles singles ... 53 ...... 33
Weeks-at-#1 ............ 178 ...... 60(?) I have no idea
h2h ...................... 1 ....... 4
Fed Cup champ ............ ? ....... 1 (?)

thrust
Apr 27th, 2009, 11:07 PM
You're quoting yourself?? :lol:

OOPS! Senior moment-LOL!!

Steffica Greles
Apr 27th, 2009, 11:14 PM
Martina Navratilova won her first slam singles title at 23. Is your argument that Seles had a better career (the topic of the thread) than Navratilova becaise she won at a younger age?

She was 21 in July 1978.

Watching
Apr 27th, 2009, 11:16 PM
Serena has 70 something weeks at no.1 now I think and I think Serena def edges it...by a mile if you include doubles...interesting to see Seles played grandslam doubles - she just didn't win.

VivalaSeles
Apr 28th, 2009, 01:45 AM
Fed Cup champ ........... ? ...... 1 (?)

Fed Cup champ ............ ? ....... 1 (?)

Monica helped the US win the Fed Cup three times: 1996, 1999 and 2000 :)

VivalaSeles
Apr 28th, 2009, 01:52 AM
Though Monica did not play in the finals of the 1999 Fed Cup, she was part of the team. A question for the experts: is she only credited with 1996 and 2000?

Volcana
Apr 28th, 2009, 09:53 PM
She was 21 in July 1978.I stand corrected, and make the correction. Thanx.

Doesn't change the point tho'.

AcesHigh
Apr 28th, 2009, 11:44 PM
Seles... for now. At least IMHO

mauresmofan
Apr 28th, 2009, 11:52 PM
I don't think it's fair to compair Seles with anyone because nobody knows if she ever reached her peak, nobody knows how many slams she could have or would have won, all we're left with are statistics but statistics don't show what being stabbed can do to a persons confidence so for me Seles deserves to be credited alongside the greatest of the greats because she was not given the opportunity to win all 4 slams and rewrite the history books the way that only she could possibly have.

Steffica Greles
Apr 29th, 2009, 12:15 AM
I'm Seles' biggest fan, but OF COURSE it's fair to compare her with other players.

She was unfortunate, she had to deal with it, and she dealt with it. That's life. Heavens above, for all we know one or two or more of the players could have been raped, or abused by their husbands, or they might have eating disorders of their own. Who knows what goes on. It's guaranteed that life's crap sometimes. Look at Althea Gibson - she overcame the colour bar, but had she failed to win slams, would you place an asterix next to her name? "Would have been the greatest ever had she not been black in the 1950s"? Of course not. She will be judged for what she achieved in spite of the obstacles before her. Don't forget she was aged 30 before she won slams because of the colour bar.

This is life. This is tennis. Life is part of tennis, and tennis is part of life.

Almost all of us would agree Seles' career was interrupted, and that she would have won several more slams at least. But that's not how her career ended up.

VivalaSeles
Apr 29th, 2009, 12:20 AM
I'm Seles' biggest fan, but OF COURSE it's fair to compare her with other players.

She was unfortunate, she had to deal with it, and she dealt with it. That's life. Heavens above, for all we know one or two or more of the players could have been raped, or abused by their husbands, or they might have eating disorders of their own. Who knows what goes on. It's guaranteed that life's crap sometimes. Look at Althea Gibson - she overcame the colour bar, but had she failed to win slams, would you place an asterix next to her name? "Would have been the greatest ever had she not been black in the 1950s"? Of course not. She will be judged for what she achieved in spite of the obstacles before her. Don't forget she was aged 30 before she won slams because of the colour bar.

This is life. This is tennis. Life is part of tennis, and tennis is part of life.

Almost all of us would agree Seles' career was interrupted, and that she would have won several more slams at least. But that's not how her career ended up.

Everything you say is absolutely correct and I thoroughly agree with you. BUT, though what happened to Monica was perhaps not «as bad» as what others had to overcome, there is one slight difference: Monica had to go through it because she was the best tennis player at that time, she had to go through it because she was playing tennis on a tennis court. Obviously, this makes returning to a tennis court much more difficult, much more complex. Her fears were brought about and were related to tennis.

Steffica Greles
Apr 29th, 2009, 12:30 AM
Everything you say is absolutely correct and I thoroughly agree with you. BUT, though what happened to Monica was perhaps not «as bad» as what others had to overcome, there is one slight difference: Monica had to go through it because she was the best tennis player at that time, she had to go through it because she was playing tennis on a tennis court. Obviously, this makes returning to a tennis court much more difficult, much more complex. Her fears were brought about and were related to tennis.

This is 'best seller' stuff really.

It must have been truly terrible what happened to Seles, but life threw down a challenge to her. She would almost inevitably have faced injuries in her early 20s (as almost all teen phenomenons do) and would have had to deal with them.

Yes I agree she'd have won perhaps up to 18 slams had she not been stabbed. But she didn't, and she could have done. And for that reason, she won't ever have the numbers. That's just the way it is.

VivalaSeles
Apr 29th, 2009, 12:47 AM
It must have been truly terrible what happened to Seles, but life threw down a challenge to her. She would almost inevitably have faced injuries in her early 20s (as almost all teen phenomenons do) and would have had to deal with them. Yes I agree she'd have won perhaps up to 18 slams had she not been stabbed. But she didn't, and she could have done. And for that reason, she won't ever have the numbers. That's just the way it is.
Indeed. There is no disputing a word you said. I just wanted to point out the uniqueness of the challenge Monica had to face. Let's be honest: her father's death was perhaps a much more painful event, but she had no problem playing «through it». Playing tennis - perhaps - helped her forget «for an instant» what had happened and could have a somewhat cathartic function. She couldn't play «through» the stabbing, simply because playing tennis must have reminded her of the stabbing at every moment. Enough of the psychological stuff. She did what she did. And I admire her for it :)

Stamp Paid
Apr 29th, 2009, 01:13 AM
I think with Serena's 10th slam and her return to #1, they are about equal now. Serena has to win more slams and rack up more weeks at #1 to say she is >>> Seles

SM
Apr 29th, 2009, 10:35 AM
how about comparing Monica's career at 21 years old with serenas when she was also 21 to make it fair :)

auah5
Apr 29th, 2009, 11:13 AM
Steffi Graf > Serena Williams
Steffi Graf > Monica Seles

If there was no stabbing accident, Steffi Graf = Monica Seles > Serena Williams

With the stabbing accident and no injuries for Serena, Monica Seles = Serena Williams

At the end, Steffi Graf is the best! ;)

auah5
Apr 29th, 2009, 11:18 AM
People just forgot that Monica's career is actually much better than Serena during her domination, but unfortunately Stefi and Serena fan stabbed her :p .

Ok, being honest, Monica Seles is more intimidating during her prime.

Just because Serena is an active player now and her fans are everywhere here of course they will vote for Serena, duh..

The Dawntreader
Apr 29th, 2009, 11:28 AM
I agree to an extent about not using the stabbing as the issues that derailed Seles's Slam tally. While it was truly a shocking and debilitating thing to happen, you can't nessecarily say she would've won countless Slams anyway. She never won Wimbledon pre '93, so why would she have been more likely to do so if she hadn't been stabbed.

If we take Seles's stabbing into account, than why not Maureen Connoly too? She had a horse-riding accident that ended her career immediately and at the time she was virtually unbeatable. At least Seles had a second shot at her career.

auah5
Apr 29th, 2009, 12:42 PM
I do believe She should have won wimbley if that accident didnt happen. Poor her.

bandabou
Apr 29th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Serena already has more majors than Seles..and can be count on to add to her tally.

Really, Serena's to be the most underrated double-digits major winner ever.

BlameSerena
Apr 29th, 2009, 01:23 PM
I do believe She should have won wimbley if that accident didnt happen. Poor her.

I believe that Serena would have won the 2004 USO if it hadn't been for a slew of bad calls. I'm not comparing a stabbing to bad calls, but I'm just pointing out that every player can play the "If" game. As horrible and tragic as the stabbing incident was, it happened...just as things have happened in Serena's life that have probably stopped her from achieving optimum success at certain slams.

Serena has 10 slams, so I'll go with her. Serena has a chance widen the gap as she is still actively winning majors.

auah5
Apr 29th, 2009, 01:29 PM
I know this thread is useless :p coz most of them are Serena fans anyway Lol.

Vlover
Apr 29th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Serena has to win more slams and rack up more weeks at #1 to say she is >>> Seles
Serena winning her 10th major automatically moves her into the double digit category of players above Seles, therefore winning more will only widen the gap. Plus Serena's ability to win majors on all four surfaces and hold all four trophies at the same time is better than weeks at #1, knowing that the #1 status is not that prestigious any more.

spartanfan
Apr 29th, 2009, 03:13 PM
Serena hands down. Serena has won all four majors and held them all at the same time. Plus she has won all the Grand Slam Doubles and two Olympic Gold Metals in Doubles and two GS in Mixed Doubles. Enough said.

homogenius
Apr 29th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Seles

BlameSerena
Apr 29th, 2009, 04:07 PM
I know this thread is useless :p coz most of them are Serena fans anyway Lol.

So, if most people posting were Seles fans, I guess you wouldn't think this thread is useless :p. Serena has 10 slams and that alone makes her better in *my* opinion. The fact that I'm a fan of Serena's is secondary to the tennis facts.

hingis-seles
Apr 29th, 2009, 05:00 PM
The stabbing skewed tennis history. It changed the course of women's tennis and destoryed a career. But, it didn't destroy a champion. For Monica Seles, to recover from that horrific assault and return to the tennis court was a victory in itself. To remain a force in women's tennis for years to come after her comeback, including winning a Slam, all the while suffering from an eating disorder and being overweight, is a tribute to the talent she had.

Having said all that, there is no question that Serena has surpassed Monica.

Miss Amor
Jul 11th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Has to be Serena now.

Dodoboy.
Jul 11th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Anymore backing Seles?

Justin SW
Jul 11th, 2009, 01:43 PM
I believe that Serena would have won the 2004 USO if it hadn't been for a slew of bad calls. I'm not comparing a stabbing to bad calls, but I'm just pointing out that every player can play the "If" game. As horrible and tragic as the stabbing incident was, it happened...just as things have happened in Serena's life that have probably stopped her from achieving optimum success at certain slams.

Serena has 10 slams, so I'll go with her. Serena has a chance widen the gap as she is still actively winning majors.

:worship: Well said. I'll add that Serena's career was shadowed from 2003 to 2006 by the murder of her siter Yetunde. :sad: