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View Full Version : Can we debunk some myths please??


AcesHigh
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:27 PM
I'd like to make a thread where we finally do some critical thinking, get away from the fancrazy partisanship, etc because there are some ridiculous things flying around here and I just want to make a space for people to point out what they think are ridiculous claims.

I'll start:

-Women's tennis is NOT dead. There are ups and downs and there's always a brightside and always a darkside. People said things were so great in 2000-2003 but people had complaints then too if you remember. Women's tennis kind of sucks right now, but we don't need to be reminded all the time.

-There's no way to know a player will "never win a slam". This claim has been made about Ana, Jelena, Elena, etc.

-Hitting harder does not equal better :rolleyes: There's a lot of Serena fans complaining that Serena doesn't hit as hard as she used to Why? She tried that for 3 years without success after 2003. She's finally getting smart and it took her awhile to adjust to a different racquet and different style of play. She's reaping the benefits now with more consistency. The claims that she's a pusher are even more ridiculous...it's called trying to stay in the point. Complain about lack of aggression, but hitting the ball hard is another thing.

-Your opponent matters. Just because you have success agianst player A,B, and C does not mean it will transfer to player D. There are such things as matchup issues that posters seem to ignore or forget.

-Because a player has a bad half-year or a bad year at all does not mean that player "SuCKss!!!" Because a player has a hot 3month run does not mean that player is the best thing since slicedbread. Longterm success is determined... well over the longterm. Players can improve and hit walls. It happens.

-Criticizing your favorite player does not make someone a hater.

And that's all i have for now.

brent-o
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:30 PM
I agree. But the ignoramuses on here are gonna rip you to shreds for it.

ShimSham
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:32 PM
I also agree.

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:50 PM
I agree. But the ignoramuses on here are gonna rip you to shreds for it.

ignorami ? :shrug: :unsure:


Insightful OP for sure though :yeah:

sammy01
Sep 5th, 2008, 11:57 PM
I'd like to make a thread where we finally do some critical thinking, get away from the fancrazy partisanship, etc because there are some ridiculous things flying around here and I just want to make a space for people to point out what they think are ridiculous claims.

I'll start:

-Women's tennis is NOT dead. There are ups and downs and there's always a brightside and always a darkside. People said things were so great in 2000-2003 but people had complaints then too if you remember. Women's tennis kind of sucks right now, but we don't need to be reminded all the time.

of course, womens tennis isn't dead but to me its going through one of those low points. im finding it painful to watch right now, as its just way to hit and miss and the top players struggle to play to a certain level week in week out these days.


-There's no way to know a player will "never win a slam". This claim has been made about Ana, Jelena, Elena, etc.

of course not but people can make educated guesses on wether players will win slams or not. the same way theres no way of knowing that a player will win a slam, like when players are touted as future slam champions, but its still ok to summise


-Hitting harder does not equal better :rolleyes: There's a lot of Serena fans complaining that Serena doesn't hit as hard as she used to Why? She tried that for 3 years without success after 2003. She's finally getting smart and it took her awhile to adjust to a different racquet and different style of play. She's reaping the benefits now with more consistency. The claims that she's a pusher are even more ridiculous...it's called trying to stay in the point. Complain about lack of aggression, but hitting the ball hard is another thing.

this is something i totaly agree with, i put up with a year of 'chkvetadze dosen't hit hard enough', now she hits harder and is not as good a player. anna do me a favour and go back to consistent anna. as for serena, if she got even fitter i would advocate her being ultra consistent because she could run around hitting deep shots and using her athletismem to win matches and it would take out the risk of spraying errors.


-Your opponent matters. Just because you have success agianst player A,B, and C does not mean it will transfer to player D. There are such things as matchup issues that posters seem to ignore or forget.

this is pretty much self explantory, as fan of chakvetadze i've learned not to underestimate anyone lol. though sometimes i do feel if certain players used their brains more they wouldn't have problems with other players.


-Because a player has a bad half-year or a bad year at all does not mean that player "SuCKss!!!" Because a player has a hot 3month run does not mean that player is the best thing since slicedbread. Longterm success is determined... well over the longterm. Players can improve and hit walls. It happens.

so true, there are some quality players out there not playing to their potential right now, but im sure they will sort whatever issues they have out and get back on track. there are also some other players that have taken advantage of this.


-Criticizing your favorite player does not make someone a hater.

please tell this to williams sisters fans because they dont get this concept. i have to put up with loads of shit for liking chaky, but i dont go round calling people haters. i often think the ones that post hater are the ignorant ones that can't accept others opinions.


And that's all i have for now.

i enjoyed replying to your post. it was almost like a conversation about tennis wooooooooooo.

AcesHigh
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:06 AM
:yeah: thanks guys. Feel free to add your own.

Dave.
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:09 AM
I'd like to make a thread where we finally do some critical thinking, get away from the fancrazy partisanship, etc because there are some ridiculous things flying around here and I just want to make a space for people to point out what they think are ridiculous claims.

I'll start:

-Women's tennis is NOT dead. There are ups and downs and there's always a brightside and always a darkside. People said things were so great in 2000-2003 but people had complaints then too if you remember. Women's tennis kind of sucks right now, but we don't need to be reminded all the time.

-There's no way to know a player will "never win a slam". This claim has been made about Ana, Jelena, Elena, etc.

-Hitting harder does not equal better :rolleyes: There's a lot of Serena fans complaining that Serena doesn't hit as hard as she used to Why? She tried that for 3 years without success after 2003. She's finally getting smart and it took her awhile to adjust to a different racquet and different style of play. She's reaping the benefits now with more consistency. The claims that she's a pusher are even more ridiculous...it's called trying to stay in the point. Complain about lack of aggression, but hitting the ball hard is another thing.

-Your opponent matters. Just because you have success agianst player A,B, and C does not mean it will transfer to player D. There are such things as matchup issues that posters seem to ignore or forget.

-Because a player has a bad half-year or a bad year at all does not mean that player "SuCKss!!!" Because a player has a hot 3month run does not mean that player is the best thing since slicedbread. Longterm success is determined... well over the longterm. Players can improve and hit walls. It happens.

-Criticizing your favorite player does not make someone a hater.

And that's all i have for now.


I agree, it's tiring to keep reading how bad women's tennis is. It's made twice as worse for fans on here who have to keep reading that. This era was always going to have a hard time following what was the best era the WTA has ever seen (1997-2003). With the absence of Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Sharapova etc. of course we are going to have a few new names at the top. But people make the mistake of thinking these new top players are there by default. NO. It's because they improved. The problem is we get too many big matches that fail to deliver. There is still quality and alot of potential, it's just faded in with some ugly matches too. Plus there isn't so much of the contrast in styles or the added off-court drama (though there's still some of that :lol:) that there used to be.

Another point I agree with is the one about matchups and players losing because they didn't play well. That is one of the most overused and ridiculous excuses people use. Most of the time, the reason for a player not playing well is their opponent is doing something right. Professional tennis players, who spend their whole lives playing tennis, very rarely lose a match because they didn't play up to a certain standard. If that does happen on a semi-regular basis, they need to get a new job.



Another point I want to make was brought up earlier in another thread. The term "pusher" is far too overused by some as a bad thing. It's not that bad if it wins matches, and it doesn't necessarily show lack of talent or courage. I wish people would stop taking away from player's wins just because they were a "pusher". If someone can win by "pushing" then the other player was not good enough in the first place.

supergrunt
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:15 AM
I agree with some things and disagree with others. I personally feel that if a player is CONSTANTLY castigated by someone then yes, that person is a hater. Call me paranoid all you want but it is the truth.

AcesHigh
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:16 AM
Another point I want to make was brought up earlier in another thread. The term "pusher" is far too overused by some as a bad thing. It's not that bad if it wins matches, and it doesn't necessarily show lack of talent or courage. I wish people would stop taking away from player's wins just because they were a "pusher". If someone can win by "pushing" then the other player was not good enough in the first place.

I was actually trying to make this point. Pusher has a negative connotation. The term i prefer is counterpuncher and there's nothing negative about it. it's a legitimate style. Whatever gets you a "W" matters. People are maybe too used to power tennis.

supergrunt
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:20 AM
I will add something:

If you see a thread and it looks like it might possibly upset you here is a tip: do not enter it. In addition, do not go into a thread just to put "This is boring", "Stupid thread", "No one cares". Well obviously soemone care denough to take the time out of their day to post thoose three words.

BuTtErFrEnA
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:21 AM
the one about serena is true....but everyone keeps saying "if she plays like that against...she'll lose easily"....quite sick of it especially from serena fans especially

sammy01
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM
i guess the whole 'pusher' thing is tennis prefrence, because i tend to think if player can force errors to win the match its clever, but others think its boring, or cowerdice. i would prefer to see longer rallies end on forced errors than short rallies ending in unforced errors. i do think jelena can become too defensive but its her way of handling pressure, the same way as big hitters start going for huge winners when under pressure.
i personaly would like less power in womens tennis, i used to prefer womens tennis because there was longer rallies but we dont get this anymore.

AcesHigh
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM
I will add something:

If you see a thread and it looks like it might possibly upset you here is a tip: do not enter it. In addition, do not go into a thread just to put "This is boring", "Stupid thread", "No one cares". Well obviously soemone care denough to take the time out of their day to post thoose three words.

:yeah:

Slutati
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:23 AM
Love it :yeah:
Also, debunk is such a cool word :hearts:

sammy01
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:28 AM
I will add something:

If you see a thread and it looks like it might possibly upset you here is a tip: do not enter it. In addition, do not go into a thread just to put "This is boring", "Stupid thread", "No one cares". Well obviously soemone care denough to take the time out of their day to post thoose three words.

yes and no. the thread dawn marie made about venus last night was an example of a thread where i felt the need to go in and pull her up on her bullshit. the thread was a complete joke in which she contridicted herself and indirectly insulted people without care. i agree on threads where it dosen't realy effect you or a person has no particular opinion to just leave them lone. like i wouldn't post in a dani thread unless there was a reason, as she does nothing for me but there are others that she does and there just as entitled to threads about her.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:39 AM
sorry aces', but you get no props from me for stating the obvious, well meaning though you may be. For the record, pushing is a legit' strategy. It, imo, is a very unpleasing boring style when played exclusively like JJ, but it is legit tactically.

Marshmallow
Sep 6th, 2008, 12:55 AM
I think the OP is a little patronizing - but considering I'm more than fed up with some of the common posts on here, like the relentless need to remind people how much better the tour could be ATM, perhaps necessary.

I'm not so sure about the Serena one too. I'm not sure if pushing means the same thing to everyone. I think the barometer for Serena's game for many people in recent times has been THAT match in the AO final 2007. I think it demonstrated to a lot of people that she could still play THAT style - so perhaps that raises questions about the reason as to why she went from being successful with it in 2003 and not the next 3 years. What injury did she have in 2003, I can't remember... did it impact her movement, footwork maybe?
Anyway, the point would be that people use the word pusher to mean she's not being as aggressive as she can be, and as a consequence with her not so stellar movement, she ends up on the defensive at the hands of some ova. I'd like to know why Serena can't produce 2007 AO final style tennis more often. She's a great stratergist and a smarter player than she is given credit for - but still don't know for sure why she isn't more aggressive. Just thinking out loud... *waits for someone to show me up :lol:*

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 6th, 2008, 01:30 AM
marsh', well said. It is a bit of a mystery to me why she doesn't employ that style more often. She's more than capable of playing that way, but she's always had a tendency to to ease off the gas against certain players and get caught up in more of a cat and mouse game than first strike game- epic Capriati matches come to mind.

When Serena is at her best, she is a free swinging, first striking, highwire act. But who knows, maybe she's simply adding another dimension.

drake3781
Sep 6th, 2008, 01:32 AM
Fortunately, I very rarely hear the word "pusher" used here, and I despise it. It has a very snobby tone to it, as if to say, that game is worse than another game, and it implies that the person saying it could do better.

Same as "club player" which is only more annoying. Both extremely condescending and snobby, when as 99% of the time used by people who themselves are not up to that level.

Aaron.
Sep 6th, 2008, 01:33 AM
I have one. Dont call someone a pusher if you dont know what one is.

Optima
Sep 6th, 2008, 01:35 AM
Fortunately, I very rarely hear the word "pusher" used here, and I despise it. It has a very snobby tone to it, as if to say, that game is worse than another game, and it implies that the person saying it could do better.

Same as "club player" which is only more annoying. Both extremely condescending and snobby, when as 99% of the time used by people who themselves are not up to that level.

:worship:

People who use the term "pusher" and "club player" annoy me to no end. They think they're tennis elites and refuse to accept that players all play differently. If "pushers" and "club players" are so shit, the more "talented" and "harder hitting aggressive baseliners" should beat the shit out of them.

Love the thread, Aces. Spot on.

AcesHigh
Sep 6th, 2008, 01:50 AM
I'm not so sure about the Serena one too. I'm not sure if pushing means the same thing to everyone. I think the barometer for Serena's game for many people in recent times has been THAT match in the AO final 2007. I think it demonstrated to a lot of people that she could still play THAT style - so perhaps that raises questions about the reason as to why she went from being successful with it in 2003 and not the next 3 years. What injury did she have in 2003, I can't remember... did it impact her movement, footwork maybe?
Anyway, the point would be that people use the word pusher to mean she's not being as aggressive as she can be, and as a consequence with her not so stellar movement, she ends up on the defensive at the hands of some ova. I'd like to know why Serena can't produce 2007 AO final style tennis more often. She's a great stratergist and a smarter player than she is given credit for - but still don't know for sure why she isn't more aggressive. Just thinking out loud... *waits for someone to show me up :lol:*

AO final 2007 is one case of your matchups and opponent mattering. Sharapova didn't play like crap but she wasnt totally in form either. I'm a little tired of "if only Serena could play like htat final". Um.. she could if she had the same opponent for 7 matches every slam.

The reality is Sharapova was a player who couldnt move well, didn't have much variety, and a serve taht wasn't at it's best but wouldnt have bothered Serena too much anyway since she's one of the better players on tour. Maria didn't really have a plan B and couldnt start to dink and dunk her way through, change pace or S&V.

So although Serena played flawless precision power tennis.. her opponent had a lot to do with it. That would not have happened to Henin, Venus, vintage Hingis, Lindsay etc. For the Serena who turned her game around to focus on precision, angles and controlled power, Sharapova was the perfect opponent.

And another reality? No one can click like that for 7 matches per tournament. That kind of flawless play is really a rarity even for the greatest players. She's smart becasue she knows she's not going to be hitting lines every match so she has a more conservative style of play.

Marshmallow
Sep 6th, 2008, 02:31 AM
AO final 2007 is one case of your matchups and opponent mattering. Sharapova didn't play like crap but she wasnt totally in form either. I'm a little tired of "if only Serena could play like htat final". Um.. she could if she had the same opponent for 7 matches every slam.

The reality is Sharapova was a player who couldnt move well, didn't have much variety, and a serve taht wasn't at it's best but wouldnt have bothered Serena too much anyway since she's one of the better players on tour. Maria didn't really have a plan B and couldnt start to dink and dunk her way through, change pace or S&V.

So although Serena played flawless precision power tennis.. her opponent had a lot to do with it. That would not have happened to Henin, Venus, vintage Hingis, Lindsay etc. For the Serena who turned her game around to focus on precision, angles and controlled power, Sharapova was the perfect opponent.

And another reality? No one can click like that for 7 matches per tournament. That kind of flawless play is really a rarity even for the greatest players. She's smart becasue she knows she's not going to be hitting lines every match so she has a more conservative style of play.

Perhaps. But Serena herself has spoken about the aggressive mind set, standing closer to the baseline at least, praising herself for executing it in that match and the need to do it more often. My issue would be this. Take Sharapova V Henin 2007-2008 and Serena V Henin 2007-2008. Maria had the most success against Henin by serving well/big and going for big shots early, it was an effective stratergy. Serena can do this as the AO 2007 final demonstrates, but what frustrated me most about Serena's matches against Henin (Miami and FO especially) was how Serena compromised this effective stratergy (the one that Henin feared her for) - by throwing in some attempted variety shot, effectively checking out of rallies, as though she was hung up on trying to prove to the world that she was more than big shots. Miami isn't the best example as maybe Henin got tight, but Serena didn't really start to claw her way back until she employed a more aggressive attitude, especially in the tenth game of the second set.

Not being able to produce this form all the time goes without saying, but 'more often' doesn't mean all the time. It's just hard to understand exactly in what proportions a lack of confidence (to employ a more aggressive mindset), fitness issues, 'the rest of the tour catching up', and trying to show more variety in her game - have played in producing the Serena we see today. But I do think she'd be winning more matches with the aggressive mindset, than the let me show you my variety game - against all types of players.

brent-o
Sep 6th, 2008, 03:16 AM
ignorami ? :shrug: :unsure:


Insightful OP for sure though :yeah:

Funny thing is I thought about that, but I like ignoramuses better.

DOUBLEFIST
Sep 6th, 2008, 04:37 AM
...as though she was hung up on trying to prove to the world that she was more than big shots....Not being able to produce this form all the time goes without saying, but 'more often' doesn't mean all the time. It's just hard to understand exactly in what proportions a lack of confidence (to employ a more aggressive mindset), fitness issues, 'the rest of the tour catching up', and trying to show more variety in her game - have played in producing the Serena we see today. But I do think she'd be winning more matches with the aggressive mindset, than the let me show you my variety game - against all types of players.

Soooo AGREED! I think this is fantastic analysis of the 'Serena Conundrum.'

This is why I hope it is an "adding onto, process" thing and not an "exchanging this style for that" thing for her. Something comes to mind about a baby and bath water.

As to more on point of the thread, I've never considered Serena a "pusher" though she does "push" from time to time, but always as a tactic rather than modus operandi. But I think it's to each his own. I, for one, can't stand pushers. I loath that style, but I don't deny its effectiveness. I just hate pitty-pat tennis. I prefer high octane tennis. I'm a fan of a typical, American style, all-court "pressing game. Serve big, hug the baseline, take the ball early as possible, open up the court as quickly as possible, get into the net as soon as possible and put the ball away!!! :bounce:

pov
Sep 6th, 2008, 04:44 AM
:yeah:

AnomyBC
Sep 6th, 2008, 06:07 AM
-There's no way to know a player will "never win a slam".

I don't know. I think you can never know for sure who WILL win a slam, but guessing the players who have no chance is usually pretty easy :lol:

JadeFox
Sep 6th, 2008, 08:17 AM
I can think of another one and it's fairly easy.

No player deserves to win anything that they haven't won yet. That includes the top players. Only the people who ACTUALLY WIN THE TOURNAMENT deserve to win it.