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tenn_ace
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:12 PM
Coetzer? Sugyama? Who else would make this list?

RenaSlam.
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:13 PM
Sanchez-Vicario.

She looks hot as hell nowadays...better than she did on tour. :hearts:

CrossCourt~Rally
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Definetely ASV,Kim and Amanda Coetzer:bounce:. Special mention to Ai aswell =)

Elldee
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Clijsters and Henin and Serena.

Not that that's what you'd ever describe any of them as such but Kim was phenomenal.

tenn_ace
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:16 PM
Thought about her but I don't think she was really a retriever. She was only when she played Graf and Seles and was guite agressive when she played other players...

tenn_ace
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:17 PM
Clijsters and Henin and Serena.

Not that that's what you'd ever describe any of them as such but Kim was phenomenal.


going through a brain cramp? phone 411

Marionated
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:17 PM
Kim. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5v1dzy1UhqA that is fucking incredible.
And, of course, ASV and Jankovic.

Elldee
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:22 PM
Kim. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5v1dzy1UhqA that is fucking incredible.
And, of course, ASV and Jankovic.


And:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4EKndqm1Yw&NR=1

So entertaining.

thegreendestiny
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Myskina as a counterpuncher retrieves so well.

Ackms421
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Definitely Arantxia-Sanchez Vicario. She was the penultimate retriever... She had a defensive lob that made you gasp...

Freakan
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:46 PM
1. Safarova

swissmr
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:51 PM
Clijsters definitely the first that comes to mind.

Dave.
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:54 PM
Coetzer
Sanchez-Vicario
Clijsters
Jankovic?

tenn_ace
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:59 PM
why is everyone naming Kim? I don't think she was really a retriever

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2008, 11:59 PM
Venus. Though there are a lot more dimensions to her game. But when it comes to chasing down shots, nobody does it better.

Vamos.
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:03 AM
Jankovic. It makes the basis of her game...and she has had massive amount of success already, so she has to be up there!

sasha&tennis
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:04 AM
Venus. Though there are a lot more dimensions to her game. But when it comes to chasing down shots, nobody does it better.
Totally agree.

starin
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:06 AM
Venus and Serna :angel:

but seriously they don't play like retrievers but both at one point were the fastest girls on tour. Serena not so much anymore :sad:


ASV, Jankovic, Sugi, etc

young_gunner913
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:06 AM
Coetzer? Sugyama? Who else would make this list?

Her name is spelt Sugiyama.

Kim was great as well.

frenchie
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:08 AM
Dementieva is very fast too
and Mauresmo even if it hurts my mouth to say it!

ASP0315
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:16 AM
Arantxia-Sanchez Vicario
Henin
Clijsters
Jankovic (she is kind of 50% retireving player)

Vamos.
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Dementieva is very fast too
and Mauresmo even if it hurts my mouth to say it!

2 Grand Slams.

:bounce:

baleineau
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:37 AM
even the most aggressive players have to retrieve at some point, so naming Serena, Venus, Kim or Justine as the best retrievers is silly. yes they retrieve brilliantly but they are not "retrievers".

the best retrievers in the last 10-20 years have been:

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario incredible gets and evil defensive lobs
Amanda Coetzer an excellent scrambler
Conchita Martinez excellent retriever on the backhand side, completely neutralising the point with her defensive slice
Ai Sugiyama brilliant foot-speed and so consistent
Anna Smashnova will chase everything down and defend til the cows come home

it's a dying strategy in the power era.

but all of these girls listed built their games on getting one more ball over the net, defending and putting the onus on the opponent to hit a winner, forcing the opponent to take all of the risks. sometimes they were outplayed by a resilient and disciplined attacking performance, but more often than not they would frustrate more opponents into giving them the match. true retrievers.

Sir Stefwhit
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:46 AM
Cool thread. The retrievers never get the respect they deserve. Although most of my favorites aren't pure defensive players, most of them would still rank tops in their retrieving ability.

To the person who is confused as to why people are mentioning Clijsters, I'm even more confused why you would even ask that question. Yes, it's true that people always underestimated her aggressive game, but just because she had offensive weapons doesn't mean she also didn't have excellent retrieving ability, the two are not mutually exclusive. It's the opposite for both Venus and Serena with them people have the tendency to underestimate their defensive skills because of their offensive weapons.

My top retrievers:
1. Clijsters
2. Sanchez-Vicario
3. Coetzer / Anna Smashnova
4. Jankovic
5. Venus
6. Henin
7. Serena
8. Hingis
9. Jill Craybas
10. Graf

Sir Stefwhit
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:53 AM
honorable mention to Sugiyama, but I still think the players i listed would rank above her in their overall defensive skills- but not speed alone though.

Sir Stefwhit
Jul 19th, 2008, 12:56 AM
even the most aggressive players have to retrieve at some point, so naming Serena, Venus, Kim or Justine as the best retrievers is silly. yes they retrieve brilliantly but they are not "retrievers".

the best retrievers in the last 10-20 years have been:

it's a dying strategy in the power era.

but all of these girls listed built their games on getting one more ball over the net, defending and putting the onus on the opponent to hit a winner, forcing the opponent to take all of the risks. sometimes they were outplayed by a resilient and disciplined attacking performance, but more often than not they would frustrate more opponents into giving them the match. true retrievers.
There are some players who are pure defensive players, namely because they lack an effective offensive weapon, but just because they lack a weapon that doesn't mean that their defensive ability is superior to that of a player whose catagorized as an offensive player. Making a list of the best retrievers and leaving off a player because they aren't pure defensive players is beyond silly.

That's like saying Nadal shouldn't be listed because of his killer forehand and much improved killer backhand. Or worse yet, saying that because Nadal is so quick around the court that he isn't considered an offensive player. People sometimes want to put players in a box but the truth is most players can't fit into just one box, especially the top players; again, it's not something that's mutually exclusive.

Nicolás89
Jul 19th, 2008, 01:21 AM
Definitely Coetzer, at her peak she was the fastest player ever. ;)

Venus3000
Jul 19th, 2008, 01:46 AM
There are some players who are pure defensive players, namely because they lack an effective offensive weapon, but just because they lack a weapon that doesn't mean that their defensive ability is superior to that of a player whose catagorized as an offensive player. Making a list of the best retrievers and leaving off a player because they aren't pure defensive players is beyond silly.

That's like saying Nadal shouldn't be listed because of his killer forehand and much improved killer backhand. Or worse yet, saying that because Nadal is so quick around the court that he isn't considered an offensive player. People sometimes want to put players in a box but the truth is most players can't fit into just one box, especially the top players; again, it's not something that's mutually exclusive.

So true. I thought I was the only that found what he said silly. Listing Anna Smashnova ahead of Venus and Serena? Come on. Venus and Serena can get to balls on a tennis court Smashnova could only dream of getting too and even better not only can they get to those balls they can hit them back with power.

Your Nadal analogy was a good one. You are right on the money here.

What did Marion say about Venus after their Wimbledon final? Something that went like this:

"And she got to some balls I have never seen a tennis player get to on a court"

baleineau
Jul 19th, 2008, 02:02 AM
so you're saying that venus is a retriever? i've seen smashnova, coetzer and asv clobber the ball, but i wouldn't call them offensive players. no player is so inflexible that they only stick to one style on every point, and no player is so multi-dimensional that we cannot categorise them.

camille pin has served aces and service winners. does that make her a big server?

perhaps the question needs rephrasing? for me implies overall approach/mindset/style rather than ability to perform the task. coetzer would go out against most opponents looking to retrieve as many balls as she can and draw errors. venus would go out and look to be aggressive, lots of 1-2 punches.

Optima
Jul 19th, 2008, 02:11 AM
:rolls: at the person that said Safarova. God, she's at the point where she's too aggressive and her shots go batshit crazy, combined with the wild errors.

Though, if she got her game together, was consistent and kept improving, I feel she could match Venus on some level. Combining defensive and aggressive play.

tennisbear7
Jul 19th, 2008, 02:34 AM
Clijsters
ASV
Graf
Hingis
Henin
Venus
Serena (when she was fitter - don't take offence to this because Serena currently is no where as fast as she was in 2002/3)
Sugiyama
Jankovic

SV_Fan
Jul 19th, 2008, 02:44 AM
1. Kim Clijsters
2. Amanda Coetzer
3. Venus Williams
4. Ai Sugiyama
5. ASV
6. Serena Williams (in her prime was phenomenal)
7. Elena Dementieva is pretty good.
8. Justine Henin (USO 2007 semi is all I have to say)
9. Amelie Mauremo
10. Martina Hingis

OsloErik
Jul 19th, 2008, 03:00 AM
Sanchez-Vicario was the finest retriever/counter-puncher of the 90's. Martinez was quite a wall as well. Not exactly a retriever, but she was remarkably good at getting to balls you didn't think she would. Coetzer was less successful than both, but more of a true retriever than either.

More recently, I'd definitely put Clijsters in there. Her knack was both getting to the ball and taking control of the point from a defensive position. An ASV with power but no head, if you will. Venus Williams too is quite a terrific retriever. Her arms and legs are so long she can get to virtually anything. If she learned to slide a little better and hit with a little more topspin, she could pull off the RG-Wimbledon double at a Borg-like rate, that's how well she moves. I'll also go out on a limb and say that Venus is the best mover ever to win a slam when you add front-to-back movement with side-to-side.

Graf, too, was a terrific retriever. And like Clijsters, she could take control of a point from a defensive position. Actually, when Clijsters emerged, I thought she played like a stockier, less-stable version of Graf.

Vespertine69
Jul 19th, 2008, 03:12 AM
All time is hard, since my knowledge of any depth (records are fun to read, but they don't tell much about quite how a player played and won back in her day) but the names being mentioned seem mostly sane if we say that it's "top 5 retrievers of the past 20 years".

Sanchez Vicario definitely deserves her slot right up there... she was criticised for being too defensive by many people, but her defence was just so brilliant to watch, especially some of those matches with Steffi or Monica throwing the kitchen sink at her and seeing how she kept on throwing it back.

Clijsters also gets a major mention from me, as does Venus and a peak-speed Serena. I'd include Myskina too, surprised more people haven't gone for her... although Anastasia was prone to being a little errant when not zoning, she was a speedy demon around the court when she wasn't sulking. I'll give a mention to Jankovic too... but top 5! So hard to choose...

Warrior
Jul 19th, 2008, 03:45 AM
venus
serena
kim
asv
coetzer

Pheobo
Jul 19th, 2008, 03:49 AM
1.) Evert (duh)
2.) ASV
3.) Clijsters
4.) Capriati
5.) Coetzer

OsloErik
Jul 19th, 2008, 04:22 AM
1.) Evert (duh)

You know, I'm a huge Evert fan, but she simply wasn't quite fast enough to really be a retriever. She got to so many balls because she could consistently keep her opponent from pushing her out wide, but she rarely had to do the same side-to-side-to-side-to-side type epic points as ASV, Coetzer, Clijsters, etc. She probably won more long rallies than any other player, but she tended to be in charge of those rallies. Back then, she was a power player. And the only other power players tried to end points quickly, so she rarely faced someone who could jerk her around the court.

I guess Evert's case is a more extreme version of the Venus and Graf (and even Clijsters and Capriati) dilemma. She got to a lot of balls, but she was in charge of the rally. Venus and Graf (and Clijsters and Capriati) are/were great defenders, but all of them had control of points so frequently that it's hard really call them retrievers. But if I were to categorize those five, Evert had the most control of each rally, followed by Graf, Venus, Capriati, and Clijsters (although I'd be willing to switch Clijsters and Capriati if someone convinced me). But Evert just had so much more control of her rallies than a true retriever.

Nicolás89
Jul 19th, 2008, 04:35 AM
You know, I'm a huge Evert fan, but she simply wasn't quite fast enough to really be a retriever. She got to so many balls because she could consistently keep her opponent from pushing her out wide, but she rarely had to do the same side-to-side-to-side-to-side type epic points as ASV, Coetzer, Clijsters, etc. She probably won more long rallies than any other player, but she tended to be in charge of those rallies. Back then, she was a power player. And the only other power players tried to end points quickly, so she rarely faced someone who could jerk her around the court.

I guess Evert's case is a more extreme version of the Venus and Graf (and even Clijsters and Capriati) dilemma. She got to a lot of balls, but she was in charge of the rally. Venus and Graf (and Clijsters and Capriati) are/were great defenders, but all of them had control of points so frequently that it's hard really call them retrievers. But if I were to categorize those five, Evert had the most control of each rally, followed by Graf, Venus, Capriati, and Clijsters (although I'd be willing to switch Clijsters and Capriati if someone convinced me). But Evert just had so much more control of her rallies than a true retriever.

Even by the time, Evert was never a power player.
Chris was a great counter-pouncher which it's not the same as being a great retriever.

Medina
Jul 19th, 2008, 04:36 AM
where anabel.. geeze she is so quick and gets everything back. When shes on hard thats what makes her game better on that surfce. She gets it back.. thats y she is difficult to bet on clay also..

Aryman3
Jul 19th, 2008, 04:38 AM
My opinion:
1/Coetzer 2/Smashnova 3/A.Radwanska

ASP0315
Jul 19th, 2008, 04:59 AM
oh yes
i forgot Conchita Martinez, amanda coetzer, Jennifer Capriati were good as well.

Uranium
Jul 19th, 2008, 05:07 AM
Capriati on clay:inlove:, she was one of my favorites to watch on clay, she moved amazing on that surface.

I say
1. Henin
2. Venus
3. Jankovic
4. Dementieva
5. Capriati

OsloErik
Jul 19th, 2008, 05:40 AM
Even by the time, Evert was never a power player.
Chris was a great counter-pouncher which it's not the same as being a great retriever.

Can you think of anyone in the 1970's who could hit as deep and hard as Evert from the baseline? I mean, she obviously wasn't a power player by any standard today, but she was certainly hitting both shots with more power than virtually anyone of comparable game style in the 70's. It was enough power to keep her opponent from turning the tables in a point. There's a misconception that Evert just patted the ball over the net. She got it their with much more pace than she gets credit for. It didn't compare to the power that any of the serve and volleyers generated, but it was certainly more than her fellow baseliners implemented.

RJWCapriati
Jul 19th, 2008, 05:47 AM
Capriati

danieln1
Jul 19th, 2008, 06:15 AM
Clijsters, Arantxa, Shahar Peer, Coetzer and Jankovic, in other words, boring players to watch (except ASV)

Miss Amor
Jul 19th, 2008, 06:37 AM
i like labrador retrievers more than the golden retrievers..

andrewC
Jul 19th, 2008, 08:10 AM
Zheng and Jankovich to me manage to get a hell of a lot of balls back, Clijsters too when she was still playing :)

patricktav2003
Jul 19th, 2008, 09:28 AM
1 arantxa
2 kim
after dont forget Kuzzie!!
yes kim was a all around player but one of the best defensive game of all time you will never see what she did!
venus is a good one too

Jakeev
Jul 19th, 2008, 11:18 AM
Coetzer? Sugyama? Who else would make this list?
Just based on her results I think Araxnta Sanchez-Vicario is definitely the greatest retriever of the Open Era. She got to the finals of all the Slams, winning three; won singles and doubles titles galore and beat every major player that came across her path in her career.

It's interesting too when people talk about how slow the grass is at Wimbledon in the 00s. Araxnta played that tournament when it was a uber fast surface and still managed two finals. That's a testament too how good with her hands and her speed made up for her lack of power.

Sir Stefwhit
Jul 19th, 2008, 05:52 PM
...(being) a great counter-pouncher ... it's not the same as being a great retriever.
good point cuz I think people often confuse the two.

The games best retrievers come from a variety of kinds of players:

1. aggressive baseliners (Serena, Venus, Dementieva)
2. all around players (Hingis, Justine, Kuznetsova)
3. defensive players (ASV, Coetzer, Peer)
4. semi-aggressive players (Steffi, Jankovic, Clijsters)
5. Serve & Volleyers (Zina Garrison, ?- can't think of any others... :lol:)

Seyz
Jul 20th, 2008, 12:02 AM
I don't know of all time, but out of recent players I would say

Venus,
Jankovic
and Hingis

OsloErik
Jul 20th, 2008, 09:51 AM
good point cuz I think people often confuse the two.

The games best retrievers come from a variety of kinds of players:

1. aggressive baseliners (Serena, Venus, Dementieva)
2. all around players (Hingis, Justine, Kuznetsova)
3. defensive players (ASV, Coetzer, Peer)
4. semi-aggressive players (Steffi, Jankovic, Clijsters)
5. Serve & Volleyers (Zina Garrison, ?- can't think of any others... :lol:)

For serve and volleyers, both Navratilova and Novotna could run down a lot of shots all over the court.

IMPOSSIBLE
Jul 20th, 2008, 09:53 AM
Dementieva

Sharapowerr
Jul 20th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Clijsters

mal
Jul 20th, 2008, 02:25 PM
i like labrador retrievers more than the golden retrievers..
What about water spaniels?

Now, FETCH!

Il Primo!
Jul 20th, 2008, 02:39 PM
Mauresmo, Jankovic, Clijsters are the ones who first come to my mind.

spencercarlos
Jul 20th, 2008, 05:41 PM
good point cuz I think people often confuse the two.

The games best retrievers come from a variety of kinds of players:

1. aggressive baseliners (Serena, Venus, Dementieva)
2. all around players (Hingis, Justine, Kuznetsova)
3. defensive players (ASV, Coetzer, Peer)
4. semi-aggressive players (Steffi, Jankovic, Clijsters)
5. Serve & Volleyers (Zina Garrison, ?- can't think of any others... :lol:)
I dunno if this was sarcasm , but then every style could be a retriever by your logic.

A retriever for me is the kind of player whose game relies most of the time on getting the ball back, someone that does not overpower her oponnent, but outlast and outsmart them.
Sorry to include Venus and Serena in this category is ridiculous, same as Steffi, Kuznetsova or Clijsters.

True retrievers are Coetzer, Arantxa, Smashnova, Martinez. Players that could be out there all day long, and you knew you have to beat them because they were not going to miss a ball.

Todays retrieves comes in the version of Sugiyama, Jankovic, Cilbukova.

mirzalover
Jul 20th, 2008, 05:50 PM
Coetzer. Didnt she have a pretty good forehand when she needed to hit it hard or just to surprise the person she was playing?

Anabelcroft
Jul 20th, 2008, 05:56 PM
Coetzer
Sanchez-Vicario
Jankovic
Martinez
and maybe Radwanska in future...

thrust
Jul 20th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Justine, Venus, Kim, Serena, ASV- Not necessarily in that order.

tenn_ace
Jul 20th, 2008, 09:18 PM
I dunno if this was sarcasm , but then every style could be a retriever by your logic.

A retriever for me is the kind of player whose game relies most of the time on getting the ball back, someone that does not overpower her oponnent, but outlast and outsmart them.
Sorry to include Venus and Serena in this category is ridiculous, same as Steffi, Kuznetsova or Clijsters.

True retrievers are Coetzer, Arantxa, Smashnova, Martinez. Players that could be out there all day long, and you knew you have to beat them because they were not going to miss a ball.

Todays retrieves comes in the version of Sugiyama, Jankovic, Cilbukova.

I totally agree with you and that was the purpose of the thread :lol:

broncosven
Jul 20th, 2008, 10:31 PM
Nicole Pratt

Serenidad.
Jul 21st, 2008, 06:20 AM
Arantxia-Sanchez Vicario
Henin
Clijsters
Jankovic (she is kind of 50% retireving player)

99%