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View Full Version : Navratilova tops The Times list of the Top 100 Players at Wimbledon of all time!


Philbo
Jul 2nd, 2008, 08:36 AM
1) Martina Navratilova
2) Billie Jean King
3)Chris Evert
4)Steffi Graf
5)Helen Wills/Moody
6) Pete Sampras
7) Louise Brough
8) Jimmy Connors
9) Boris Becker
10) John McEnroe

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article4176943.ece

OsloErik
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:09 AM
Venus at #13!

Might crack the top 10 in a couple days.

Sam L
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:25 AM
The 8-times Champion at #5? :confused:

Philbo
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:29 AM
"We devised a points system to reward all players reaching at least the last 16 in all the championships since the challenge round was abolished in 1922.
Players were given 1pt for making the last 16, 2pts for the quarter-final and 5pts for the semi-final. The runner-up was awarded 10pts while the champion received 15pts.
This produced a Top 100 list that, with ties, actually contained 102 players, 52 men and 50 women. The players came from all eras of the game but women dominate the top of the leaderboard, claiming the first five players. Pete Sampras is the best-placed man in sixth place, 83 points behind the top woman, Martina Navratilova"

tennisbear7
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:31 AM
Chris Evert above Venus/Pete/etc :barf::lol::spit:

FrOzon
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:42 AM
Should be 20pts for winners :shrug:

morbidangle
Jul 2nd, 2008, 09:50 AM
Evert above Graf??:lol:

Sally Struthers
Jul 2nd, 2008, 10:19 AM
borg and federer are not in the top 10? what kind of list is this? :shrug:

OsloErik
Jul 2nd, 2008, 10:42 AM
They used a points system, so players with longer/completed careers are obviously at an advantage. Federer has a quarterfinal and 5 wins, Borg has 5 wins and 1 final. Players like Evert, Connors, and Becker have less titles, but they reached the 2nd week 10-15 times each. Which adds up pretty quickly.

OsloErik
Jul 2nd, 2008, 10:46 AM
Chris Evert above Venus/Pete/etc :barf::lol::spit:

It's about the criteria. They give you points for every 4th round or better you compete in. Venus has reached the 4th round or better 8 times. Sampras, 10. Evert, 18. It's a numbers game.

Kart
Jul 2nd, 2008, 11:17 AM
Sounds like an odd ranking system but then again Martina N should be at the top so I suppose it's got some merit.

ElusiveChanteuse
Jul 2nd, 2008, 11:39 AM
Men and women can't be compared.:shrug:

joćo.
Jul 2nd, 2008, 11:43 AM
No Fed?

lavigne41
Jul 2nd, 2008, 11:45 AM
Maria's joined 72nd. :lol:

CrossCourt~Rally
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:31 PM
It's about the criteria. They give you points for every 4th round or better you compete in. Venus has reached the 4th round or better 8 times. Sampras, 10. Evert, 18. It's a numbers game.


That sounds about right:). If venus wins on saturday then she will zoom into the top 10 :bounce:.

tennislover
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:38 PM
:woohoo:

yeaaaahhhhhhhh!!!

tennislover
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:40 PM
Maria's joined 72nd. :lol:

:lol:

Uranium
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:42 PM
Venus will be #1 on the list one day:hearts:

Ryan
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:53 PM
Hingis #88. :cool: I'm just glad she made it on there with such a spotty Wimby record.

Grinder
Jul 2nd, 2008, 01:55 PM
The list lost all credibility when it didn't list Pete Sampras as number one.

Expat
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:05 PM
federer behind venus :confused:
evert ahead of graf WTF

GoDominique
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:08 PM
Sounds like an odd ranking system but then again Martina N should be at the top so I suppose it's got some merit.
It would be hard to come up with a system that does NOT put Navra at the top.

Philbo
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:12 PM
The list lost all credibility when it didn't list Pete Sampras as number one.

YOu just lost a fair bit of credibility by claiming that Pete should be above Navratilova in this list. By any standard, Martina has had a better Wimbledon career than Pete..

Infiniti2001
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:12 PM
I love Vee and all, but what ranking system has her about that dour dude Federer :shrug: :unsure:

OsloErik
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:15 PM
again, people, it's an objective list based off of specific criteria that reward players who consistently make it to the 2nd week. Federer's done it 6 times. Venus 6, Sampras 10, Evert 18. There's a reason for the rankings, not some anonymous forum poster making BS rankings for fun.

By the by, Sharapova's done it 4 times total. One win, two semis, one fourth round. That's a pretty paltry record, compared to many of the others on the list. The list isn't a composite of the players with the most potential at Wimbledon. It's a grade of results. And while Sharapova has damn good results for a 21 year old, the composite grades results, out of context, as if everyone retired today.

spencercarlos
Jul 2nd, 2008, 02:38 PM
Should be 20pts for winners :shrug:
Exactly they doubled the points from round to round (1-2-5-10-15) except from winning the whole thing, that is absolutely ridiculous.

I can imagine this system at Roland Garros and Arantxa would probably be ahead of Graf as well there :lol:

SAEKeithSerena
Jul 2nd, 2008, 03:35 PM
The list lost all credibility when it didn't list Pete Sampras as number one.

exactly.

Philbo
Jul 2nd, 2008, 04:07 PM
exactly.

How does Petes Wimbledon career beat Martina's?

Kart
Jul 2nd, 2008, 04:09 PM
It would be hard to come up with a system that does NOT put Navra at the top.
Fair point.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 2nd, 2008, 05:24 PM
where's Serena? :unsure:

Max565
Jul 2nd, 2008, 05:40 PM
Why are the men and women on the same list?

tennislover
Jul 2nd, 2008, 05:48 PM
again, people, it's an objective list based off of specific criteria that reward players who consistently make it to the 2nd week. Federer's done it 6 times. Venus 6, Sampras 10, Evert 18. There's a reason for the rankings, not some anonymous forum poster making BS rankings for fun.



true

G-Ha
Jul 2nd, 2008, 06:06 PM
again, people, it's an objective list based off of specific criteria that reward players who consistently make it to the 2nd week. Federer's done it 6 times. Venus 6, Sampras 10, Evert 18. There's a reason for the rankings, not some anonymous forum poster making BS rankings for fun.

i understand the criteria, but it's a rather ridiculous one to use as evidenced by evert being ahead of players like graf and sampras, who both have more singles titles than her and dominated wimbledon during various periods. at the end of the day, winning the title actually counts...no one remembers who made the quarters or semis consistently. at least navratilova still made the top even with this silly ranking system.

Grinder
Jul 2nd, 2008, 06:11 PM
That sounds about right:). If venus wins on saturday then she will zoom into the top 10 :bounce:.

YOu just lost a fair bit of credibility by claiming that Pete should be above Navratilova in this list. By any standard, Martina has had a better Wimbledon career than Pete..

By standard, ATP > WTA. Sampras is the greatest tennis player of all time.

End of discussion.

Call a :bs: on the "objective" list, the person who made the list conveniently determined the criteria in a way that it favors the players he/she wanted to be at the top.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 2nd, 2008, 06:38 PM
By standard, ATP > WTA. Sampras is the greatest tennis player of all time.

End of discussion.

Call a :bs: on the "objective" list, the person who made the list conveniently determined the criteria in a way that it favors the players he/she wanted to be at the top.

Exactly, except I'd say Federer is greater than Pete.

darkchild
Jul 2nd, 2008, 07:14 PM
Lindsay is the second best grass player of this generation, I can accept that.

LDVTennis
Jul 3rd, 2008, 12:07 AM
Martina's singles record at Wimbledon is overrated.

Look at her competition. For comparison purposes, I'll show Graf's and Sampras' competition:

Martina Navratilova

1978 Chris Evert (baseliner whose best surface was clay)
1979 Chris Evert
1982 Chris Evert
1983 Andrea Jaeger (baseliner, moonballer, who now claims she lost this match on purpose)
1984 Chris Evert (4th loss to Martina, in straight sets)
1985 Chris Evert (5th loss to Martina)
1986 Hana Mandlikova (great shotmaker, but what a mental basket case)
1987 Steffi Graf (finally some competition)
1990 Zina Garrison (serve and volley player, lucky 9th win)

Two of Martina's opponents never won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against Catalina Castano in 2004. Last loss was to Gisela Dulko in 2004. Last loss in final was to Conchita Martinez in 1994. Worst loss was to Patti Hogan in 1973 and Mima Jausovec in 1974.

Record against all-time great players: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Seles. Losing record against 3 out of 5 all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-0 to Goolagong, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Novotna, 0-1 to Martinez. Losing record to 4 out of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Wining Percentage = .896 (120/134)


Steffi Graf

1988 Martina Navratilova (Martina had won Wimbledon 8 times)
1989 Martina Navratilova (this gives Steffi a winning record against Martina on Wimbledon grass)
1991 Gabriela Sabatini (all court player, very good athlete)
1992 Monica Seles (power baseliner, had beaten Martina N. in the previous round)
1993 Jana Novotna (serve and volley player, very good athlete, had beaten Martina N. in previous round)
1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (all-court player on grass, great athlete)
1996 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario

All of Steffi's opponents won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against eventual champion Venus Williams in '99. Last loss was to Lindsay Davenport in '99 Final. Worst loss was to Nerida Gregory in 1983.

Record against all-time greats players: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 2-0 to Seles, 1-0 to V. Williams. Winning record against all, all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 5-0 to Novotna, 1-0 to Martinez, 2-0 to Hingis, 1-0 to V. Williams, 0-1 Davenport. Winning record against 6 of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning Percentage = .904 (75/83)


Pete Sampras

1993 Jim Courier (power baseliner)
1994 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player- great serve)
1995 Boris Becker (all court player-great serve)
1997 Cedric Pioline (all court player/baseliner)
1998 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player-great serve)
1999 Andre Agassi (power baseliner)
2000 Patrick Rafter (serve and volley player)

Record against all-time great players: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 2 out of 3 all time greats.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 3-1 to Ivanisevic, 1-0 to Stich, 0-1 to Krajicek, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 4 out of 6 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning percentage = .900 (63/70)

The Facts Speak For Themselves. Martina is Overrated!

LindsayRulz
Jul 3rd, 2008, 12:17 AM
Lindsay's #29 :)

fammmmedspin
Jul 3rd, 2008, 01:41 AM
Chris Evert above Venus/Pete/etc :barf::lol::spit:

Comes from the arbitary and in this case dumb points score. Evert lost a lot of finals so she ends up only losing five points each time compared to someone who won more.

PLP
Jul 3rd, 2008, 01:57 AM
I love the picture of Hingis on the front page of the article, very interesting choice out of everyone. :lol:
Even though she's only #88. Still she's on the list.

Philbo
Jul 3rd, 2008, 08:06 AM
Martina's singles record at Wimbledon is overrated.

Look at her competition. For comparison purposes, I'll show Graf's and Sampras' competition:

Martina Navratilova

1978 Chris Evert (baseliner whose best surface was clay)
1979 Chris Evert
1982 Chris Evert
1983 Andrea Jaeger (baseliner, moonballer, who now claims she lost this match on purpose)
1984 Chris Evert (4th loss to Martina, in straight sets)
1985 Chris Evert (5th loss to Martina)
1986 Hana Mandlikova (great shotmaker, but what a mental basket case)
1987 Steffi Graf (finally some competition)
1990 Zina Garrison (serve and volley player, lucky 9th win)

Two of Martina's opponents never won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against Catalina Castano in 2004. Last loss was to Gisela Dulko in 2004. Last loss in final was to Conchita Martinez in 1994. Worst loss was to Patti Hogan in 1973 and Mima Jausovec in 1974.

Record against all-time great players: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Seles. Losing record against 3 out of 5 all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-0 to Goolagong, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Novotna, 0-1 to Martinez. Losing record to 4 out of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Wining Percentage = .896 (120/134)


Steffi Graf

1988 Martina Navratilova (Martina had won Wimbledon 8 times)
1989 Martina Navratilova (this gives Steffi a winning record against Martina on Wimbledon grass)
1991 Gabriela Sabatini (all court player, very good athlete)
1992 Monica Seles (power baseliner, had beaten Martina N. in the previous round)
1993 Jana Novotna (serve and volley player, very good athlete, had beaten Martina N. in previous round)
1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (all-court player on grass, great athlete)
1996 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario

All of Steffi's opponents won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against eventual champion Venus Williams in '99. Last loss was to Lindsay Davenport in '99 Final. Worst loss was to Nerida Gregory in 1983.

Record against all-time greats players: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 2-0 to Seles, 1-0 to V. Williams. Winning record against all, all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 5-0 to Novotna, 1-0 to Martinez, 2-0 to Hingis, 1-0 to V. Williams, 0-1 Davenport. Winning record against 6 of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning Percentage = .904 (75/83)


Pete Sampras

1993 Jim Courier (power baseliner)
1994 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player- great serve)
1995 Boris Becker (all court player-great serve)
1997 Cedric Pioline (all court player/baseliner)
1998 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player-great serve)
1999 Andre Agassi (power baseliner)
2000 Patrick Rafter (serve and volley player)

Record against all-time great players: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 2 out of 3 all time greats.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 3-1 to Ivanisevic, 1-0 to Stich, 0-1 to Krajicek, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 4 out of 6 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning percentage = .900 (63/70)

The Facts Speak For Themselves. Martina is Overrated!

So tragically clutching at straws lol.. this post warmed my heart to know how much it must irritate LDV Tennis that Martina is virtually accepted universally as a superior player to Steffi on grass.
Suffer LDV, suffer lol

Philbo
Jul 3rd, 2008, 08:07 AM
By standard, ATP > WTA. Sampras is the greatest tennis player of all time.

End of discussion.

Call a :bs: on the "objective" list, the person who made the list conveniently determined the criteria in a way that it favors the players he/she wanted to be at the top.

It would be 'end of discussion' if the actual Ratings were based on 'best of all time', but it wasnt. It was rating players performance at wimbledon and wimbledon only, therefore your point is mute...

homogenius
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:28 AM
Martina's singles record at Wimbledon is overrated.

Look at her competition. For comparison purposes, I'll show Graf's and Sampras' competition:

Martina Navratilova

1978 Chris Evert (baseliner whose best surface was clay)
1979 Chris Evert
1982 Chris Evert
1983 Andrea Jaeger (baseliner, moonballer, who now claims she lost this match on purpose)
1984 Chris Evert (4th loss to Martina, in straight sets)
1985 Chris Evert (5th loss to Martina)
1986 Hana Mandlikova (great shotmaker, but what a mental basket case)
1987 Steffi Graf (finally some competition)
1990 Zina Garrison (serve and volley player, lucky 9th win)

Two of Martina's opponents never won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against Catalina Castano in 2004. Last loss was to Gisela Dulko in 2004. Last loss in final was to Conchita Martinez in 1994. Worst loss was to Patti Hogan in 1973 and Mima Jausovec in 1974.

Record against all-time great players: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Seles. Losing record against 3 out of 5 all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 0-1 to Court, 1-0 to BJK, 5-2 to Evert, 1-0 to Goolagong, 1-2 to Graf, 0-1 to Novotna, 0-1 to Martinez. Losing record to 4 out of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Wining Percentage = .896 (120/134)


Steffi Graf

1988 Martina Navratilova (Martina had won Wimbledon 8 times)
1989 Martina Navratilova (this gives Steffi a winning record against Martina on Wimbledon grass)
1991 Gabriela Sabatini (all court player, very good athlete)
1992 Monica Seles (power baseliner, had beaten Martina N. in the previous round)
1993 Jana Novotna (serve and volley player, very good athlete, had beaten Martina N. in previous round)
1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (all-court player on grass, great athlete)
1996 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario

All of Steffi's opponents won a major title, at Wimbledon or elsewhere. Last win at Wimbledon was against eventual champion Venus Williams in '99. Last loss was to Lindsay Davenport in '99 Final. Worst loss was to Nerida Gregory in 1983.

Record against all-time greats players: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 2-0 to Seles, 1-0 to V. Williams. Winning record against all, all-time great players.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 1-0 to Evert, 2-1 to Navratilova, 5-0 to Novotna, 1-0 to Martinez, 2-0 to Hingis, 1-0 to V. Williams, 0-1 Davenport. Winning record against 6 of 7 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning Percentage = .904 (75/83)


Pete Sampras

1993 Jim Courier (power baseliner)
1994 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player- great serve)
1995 Boris Becker (all court player-great serve)
1997 Cedric Pioline (all court player/baseliner)
1998 Goran Ivanisevic (serve and volley player-great serve)
1999 Andre Agassi (power baseliner)
2000 Patrick Rafter (serve and volley player)

Record against all-time great players: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 2 out of 3 all time greats.

Record against other Wimbledon Champions: 3-0 to Becker, 2-0 to Agassi, 3-1 to Ivanisevic, 1-0 to Stich, 0-1 to Krajicek, 0-1 to Federer. Winning record against 4 out of 6 Wimbledon Champions.

Winning percentage = .900 (63/70)

The Facts Speak For Themselves. Martina is Overrated!

Not again :rolleyes:.You already post the same kind of shit in a "best grass court player thread".
Some of your attempts to describe players are funny though : Evert (with several wins at Wimbledon) is a "baseliner whose surface was clay" but Sanchez is an "all court player on grass and a great athlete" lol
Same with Mandlikova that you described as a "great shotmaker but a mental basket case" while you conveniently avoided to talk about Novotna's mental forfitude (or lack of...)
Actually, seeing the opposition she faced, one could make an argument about Graf's record being overrated at Wimbledon....

Bottom line : no one would put Graf above Navratilova on grass and at Wimbledon.Deal with it.

Philbo
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:51 AM
Not again :rolleyes:.You already post the same kind of shit in a "best grass court player thread".
Some of your attempts to describe players are funny though : Evert (with several wins at Wimbledon) is a "baseliner whose surface was clay" but Sanchez is an "all court player on grass and a great athlete" lol
Same with Mandlikova that you described as a "great shotmaker but a mental basket case" while you conveniently avoided to talk about Novotna's mental forfitude (or lack of...)
Actually, seeing the opposition she faced, one could make an argument about Graf's record being overrated at Wimbledon....

Bottom line : no one would put Graf above Navratilova on grass and at Wimbledon.Deal with it.
Its absolutely pathetic.
By most people's reckoning, Chris Evert is in the Top 5 of all time. Yet LDV seems to think she was lesser competition than the likes of Sabatini, Sanchez, Novotna etc. As I said, clutching at straws...

As it was, Steffi was voted the Most overrated player of the 20th century by Sports Illustrated (from memory), LDV must still be trying to deflect that unwanted slur on Steffi's record lol...

Philbo
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:55 AM
Funny how LDV bemoans Hana Mandlikova as being a 'mental basket case' - when two of Graf's wimbledon wins were handed to her by 'mental basket cases' who had the game, but not the nerve, to defeat Graf on grass.
Wimbledon 1991 - Sabatini serves for it at 5-4 and 6-5 (or whatever it was) and chokes, cant get the job done..

Wimbledon 1993 - Novotna up 4-1 40-15, then cant get another shot in court..

Its Graf's wimbledon record that is overated due to her opponents being mental basket cases. Martina had the toughest opponent mentally EVER to overcome (Evert).

LDVTennis
Jul 3rd, 2008, 04:53 PM
So tragically clutching at straws lol.. this post warmed my heart to know how much it must irritate LDV Tennis that Martina is virtually accepted universally as a superior player to Steffi on grass.
Suffer LDV, suffer lol

Not irritated at all. A recent article by Joel Drucker, at ESPN, titled "Where does Henin rank among the greats?," shows that editorial opinion is trending in Steffi's direction. She's now almost universally acknowledged as the best player ever by the people making the important editorial decisions. It was just a matter of time. Hard to match up anything anyone else did to Steffi's calendar year grand slam and 4 wins at every major.

But, I can see why you would be irritated and clutch at the straw that was this stupid article in the Times of London. With Martina falling on such other lists, what other options did you have?

It is a just a matter of time, though, before people such as Joel Drucker at ESPN start to examine Martina's record at Wimbledon. Sure she won 9 times, but that's not the whole story. When the whole story gets told, just how glorious will it look that Martina has: (1) a LOSING record at Wimbledon against 4 out of 7 Wimbledon Champions, including Margaret Court and Steffi Graf; and (2) a LOSING record at Wimbledon against 3 out of 5 all-time great players, including Margaret Court and Steffi Graf.

It doesn't get more overrated than that. Can't wait to read Joel Drucker's article on that.:drool:

LDVTennis
Jul 3rd, 2008, 05:46 PM
Not again :rolleyes:.You already post the same kind of shit in a "best grass court player thread".
Some of your attempts to describe players are funny though : Evert (with several wins at Wimbledon) is a "baseliner whose surface was clay" but Sanchez is an "all court player on grass and a great athlete" lol
Same with Mandlikova that you described as a "great shotmaker but a mental basket case" while you conveniently avoided to talk about Novotna's mental forfitude (or lack of...)
Actually, seeing the opposition she faced, one could make an argument about Graf's record being overrated at Wimbledon....

Bottom line : no one would put Graf above Navratilova on grass and at Wimbledon.Deal with it.

Who cares if Chris won 3 times. Chris lost to Martina 5 times in a Wimbledon Final. That's the definition of ineptitude on grass.

Chris' disadvantage vs. Martina on grass was that she was not a great athlete. What a difference it would have made if Chris had had the speed and agility to track down Martina's first volley, to play an all-court defense/game plan.

You know who had that kind of speed, Steffi and Arantxa. And, because Arantxa had that kind of speed, she was never athletically outclassed by Steffi at Wimbledon.

As to who was the bigger mental case. Sorry, there's no comparison between Novotna and Mandlikova. Novotna ended up winning Wimbledon, Mandlikova didn't despite being the superior, grass court player coming into the 1981 Final.

Furthermore, if Novotna was such a mental case, how is it that she managed in '93 on her way to the finals to beat Sabatini in the Qtrs and Navratilova in the Semi? So, Novotna only becomes a mental case when Steffi's standing across the net from her. And, we know that because she lost to Steffi after being up 4-1 in the third. Well, if that is the definition of a mental case, add Martina N. to the list of mental cases for she was in a similar situation in the '88 Wimbledon final and the '89 US Open final.

As to Graf being overrated at Wimbledon?

That's not what the facts lead us to believe. Consider this:

Steffi has a winning record at Wimbledon against all the all-time great players, including Martina N., Evert, and V. Williams.

Steffi has a winning record at Wimbledon against 6 of 7 former Wimbledon Champions, including Martina N., Evert, Hingis, V. Williams.

All of Steffi's opponents in the Final won at least one major at Wimbledon or elsewhere.

And, how about this... At Wimbledon, Martina Navratilova did not win her last match against the woman (Steffi Graf) who would go on to dominate Wimbledon for the next decade, but Steffi Graf did. In the '99 Wimbledon Qtrs, Steffi defeated the current Wimbledon champion and 2008 Finalist Venus Williams. So, while in 2004, Martina could only dream of beating the Williams' sisters on grass, Steffi had already shown she could.

Deal with that!

Wimbledon9
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:21 PM
What is it with these Steffi Graf fans, they cannot accept when a newspaper
with a point system proves that Martina is the best Wimbledon champion. I can tell you that Martina lost the final of 1988 because she hardly could lift her arm because of a shoulderproblem. She even managed to win the first set with that shoulder. An expert like tennisplayer John Alexander asked her coach after the match what was wrong with Martina he saw that she could hardly serve.I am not totally using this as an excuse although you Graf fans come up with all her injuries as an excuse I call this as a fact. Serve and volleyplayers are late bloomers and there was a small thing as her defection. Even with all these obstacles she is the best grasscourt player. I will never tell that Martina N. was the best claycourt player because she was not. I still do not understand why there is such hate for Martina on this board she does not deserve this at all.

Marshmallow
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:29 PM
Venus at #13!

Might crack the top 10 in a couple days.

What does her current result do for her ranking (I can't find the list :tape: :help:)

7 finals out of (the last) 9 appearances is pretty impressive.

Kart
Jul 3rd, 2008, 09:33 PM
Honestly, I'm far more of a Steffi fan than I'll ever be a Martina N fan but really, how can anyone rate Steffi's record at Wimbledon above Martina's with any seriousness ? :lol:

If anything, acknowledging Martina's supremity in SW19 reflects better on the times Steffi beat her there.

thrust
Jul 3rd, 2008, 10:10 PM
I doubt that Helen W-M ever lost a match at Wimbledon, probably not more than one. Among women: H W-M, Navratilova, King, Graf, Brough, Venus. I rate King over Graf and Brough over Venus because they won in eras when there were many good grass court players, as three of four were played on grass. Men: Sampras, Borg,Laver, Federer, McEnroe. Laver, had he not been barred from Wimbledon for 5 years and Rosewall for 11, probably would be ranked higher. It is WINS that shoud count, not semis, quarters etc.. To rank Evert so high is silly.

morbidangle
Jul 3rd, 2008, 10:12 PM
Honestly, I'm far more of a Steffi fan than I'll ever be a Martina N fan but really, how can anyone rate Steffi's record at Wimbledon above Martina's with any seriousness ? :lol:

If anything, acknowledging Martina's supremity in SW19 reflects better on the times Steffi beat her there.
Agreed! I am a huge Steffi fan, but no way can I say that she had a better record on grass than Martina Navratilova! This is the only slam where Martina scores over Steffi.

morbidangle
Jul 3rd, 2008, 10:16 PM
What is it with these Steffi Graf fans, they cannot accept when a newspaper
with a point system proves that Martina is the best Wimbledon champion. I can tell you that Martina lost the final of 1988 because she hardly could lift her arm because of a shoulderproblem. She even managed to win the first set with that shoulder. An expert like tennisplayer John Alexander asked her coach after the match what was wrong with Martina he saw that she could hardly serve.I am not totally using this as an excuse although you Graf fans come up with all her injuries as an excuse I call this as a fact. Serve and volleyplayers are late bloomers and there was a small thing as her defection. Even with all these obstacles she is the best grasscourt player. I will never tell that Martina N. was the best claycourt player because she was not. I still do not understand why there is such hate for Martina on this board she does not deserve this at all.
:bs:
Her serve was questionable only in the early stages of the third set, and mainly because of the way Steffi was returning. She got beaten by a far better player on the day.

Philbo
Jul 4th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Honestly, I'm far more of a Steffi fan than I'll ever be a Martina N fan but really, how can anyone rate Steffi's record at Wimbledon above Martina's with any seriousness ? :lol:

If anything, acknowledging Martina's supremity in SW19 reflects better on the times Steffi beat her there.

Its LDV Tennis we are dealing with here. Alternate reality and all that stuff...

Philbo
Jul 4th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Not irritated at all.

I beg to differ. Listen to your fellow Steffi fans :)

Philbo
Jul 4th, 2008, 08:27 AM
She's now almost universally acknowledged as the best player ever by the people making the important editorial decisions.
But, I can see why you would be irritated and clutch at the straw that was this stupid article in the Times of London. With Martina falling on such other lists, what other options did you have?

.:drool:
I also had this option...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_blogs/scorecard/daily_list/2008/05/greatest-female-athletes-of-all-time.html

5/13/2008 03:06:00 PM
Greatest Female Athletes of All Time


By Lang Whitaker, SI.com



1. Babe Zaharias: Though she dominated the sports world, she lived in an era when the athletic accomplishments of women weren't exactly celebrated. Still, Babe hit five home runs in a baseball game, won three Olympic medals in track and field, was an All-American in basketball and won dozens of golf tournaments.


2. Jackie Joyner-Kersee: After scoring more 1,000 points as a basketball player at UCLA, Joyner-Kersee made her mark on the world as a heptathlete, winning seven Olympic medals (three golds).


3. Martina Navratilova: While many consider Billie Jean King the greatest female tennis player of all time, I'm going with Martina, who won 18 Grand Slam titles as a singles player and 31 in doubles. She also reeled off 74 consecutive wins at one point, and even King called her the greatest singles, doubles and mixed-doubles player "who ever lived."


4. Sonja Henie -- The Norwegian skater is known for revolutionizing figure skating by injecting style and structure to her routines. She won three Olympic gold medals and 10 world championships, then went on to organize skating tours and star in films.


5. Cheryl Miller: The greatest Miller family baller compiled a 132-4 record in high school, including one legendary game in which she scored 105 points in the first half. At USC, she was a four-time All-American and finished fifth on the NCAA Women's all-time charts in scoring and third in rebounding.


Dont see Steffi anywhere lol!!! Go and cry about it LDV....

renstar
Jul 4th, 2008, 08:39 AM
Chris Evert above Venus/Pete/etc :barf::lol::spit:

Um just for your information even though Chris _only_ won it 3 times (which is still a good number of times, she was finalast _7_ times!! and Semi Finalist _7_ times.......... A truly amazing record, and if not For Martina Navratilova the best Wimbledon player in History I how many of those 7 finals could she have converted to a win.

To those who think Chris was a fluff player think again, one of the best in history!

Philbo
Jul 4th, 2008, 09:00 AM
Um just for your information even though Chris _only_ won it 3 times (which is still a good number of times, she was finalast _7_ times!! and Semi Finalist _7_ times.......... A truly amazing record, and if not For Martina Navratilova the best Wimbledon player in History I how many of those 7 finals could she have converted to a win.

To those who think Chris was a fluff player think again, one of the best in history!

Totally agree.. Which makes Martina's 9 Wimbledons more impressive. Beating a fellow Top 5 best of all time player in so many wimbledon matches.

Conversely, Martina could well have ended up with a couple more French titles if Chris wasnt so dominant on clay...

renstar
Jul 4th, 2008, 09:35 AM
nice lil youtube Martina documentary piece on her Wimbledon success.. poor lil zina garrison didnt stand a chance for Martina Claiming her historic 9th!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu0OLtyn6I

OsloErik
Jul 7th, 2008, 03:35 AM
Venus moves up to #10, 1 point (a 4th round or better result) away from #9 with Boris Becker.