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LegendsofTennis
Jun 21st, 2008, 02:32 AM
Most Humiliating Loss at Wimbledon?

(1994 Wimbledon June 22, 1994) 30 year old and Unseeded Lori Mcneil defeated Steffi Graf 7-5, 7-6 (7-5).

Graf became the first defending champion in the 108 year history of Wimbledon's coveted women's singles crown to discover herself dethroned in the 1st round. At Wimbledon, Graf's previous weakest efforts had come with 4th round defeats in '84 and '85. McNeil made a point of attacking both the net and Graf's unsteady backhand; time and again she pushed the German deep into her least favorite corner and was rewarded by a weak backhand into the net.

Graf bumbled through the first set, always playing catchup, only to double fault at set point after the match resumed at 5/5 after an hourlong rain delay. Graf broke McNeil in the third game of the 2nd set, and then went up by 4/2 after a rain delay, but McNeil broke her as she attempted to serve for the second set. Pushed into a familiar corner, Graf made a familiar mistake and dumped a backhand into the net. That same scenario cost her the set point she earned against McNeil in the 11th game. Two more errors in the tie breaker, a netted smash and a double fault, put Graf behind, 4/3, and once Lori went ahead, 6/3, with a backhand volley, Graf knew she was, quite literally, about to make the wrong kind of history.


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(1999 Wimbledon June 23, 1999) 16 year old and Unseeded Jelena Dokic defeated Martina Hingis 6/2 6/0.

It was only the third time in Wimbledon history that a top seed had lost an opening match. With a backhand return that popped out of bounds at match point, Hingis, the world's No. 1-ranked player, surrendered in only 55 minutes, 6/2, 6/0, to Dokic, a 129th-ranked Australian qualifier who pulled off the biggest Grand Slam upset of the Open era.

The Swiss Miss ( who won the title in 1997) had counted herself a favorite , instead, she became the 3rd top seeded woman since 1968 to falter in the first round of a major tournament. And Jelena (thus joined Lori McNeil, who upset Steffi Graf at Wimbledon in 1994, and Australia's Margaret Sawyer, who stunned Virginia Ruzici in the 1979 Australian Open. Dokic, who arrived in Australia 7 years ago by way of Serbia and Belgrade totally dominated Hingis. ''She's got all the shots in the book,'' Dokic said, ''and she can do anything. I mean, she's No. 1 in the world, but once I got going, I played very well. Everything worked today: I knew I had to keep it deep, play to her forehand, hit winners. I don't think there was any pressure at all, because she's the one who was supposed to win.''

''She played a great match,'' said Hingis, who noticed the crowd seemed partial to the underdog. ''They were clapping for her great shots, not against me. I just didn't make many winners. They had nothing to clap about.''

OsloErik
Jun 21st, 2008, 02:37 AM
In 1994, there were 16 seeds at slams. Lori McNeil was #20, had won Birmingham two weeks earlier, and was clearly a top-10 grass player even before that '94 semifinal.

By contrast, Dokic wasn't a player yet.

Renalicious
Jun 21st, 2008, 02:38 AM
The Dokic vs Hingis one because of the scoreline. :)

DimaDinosaur
Jun 21st, 2008, 04:43 AM
^^ BOTH of these reasons make me choose Dokic

Slutati
Jun 21st, 2008, 04:45 AM
Dokic...she humiliated Martina.

irma
Jun 21st, 2008, 04:45 AM
Steffi lost at wimbledon 94 because she met a very good grassplayer and she wasn't in the form of her life. She was still competive anyway
Hingis tanked at wimbledon because she lost at the french and rather wanted to be on the beach with a lover

It's even a shame to compare the two

RogerPete
Jun 21st, 2008, 05:21 AM
What makes Lori McNeil's victory more exceptional was that Steffi Graf had literally dominated the women's tour since winning the French Open in 1993.

Wojtek
Jun 21st, 2008, 05:27 AM
How old is thread starter? :yawn: I saw this match - Steffi played ok but Lori was too good. Amazing service & volley :devil:
Hingis played awful almost tank this match

RogerPete
Jun 21st, 2008, 05:38 AM
Steffi lost at wimbledon 94 because she met a very good grassplayer and she wasn't in the form of her life.

Hingis tanked at wimbledon because she lost at the french and rather wanted to be on the beach with a lover

It's even a shame to compare the two

Graf regarded all her opponents as inherently inferior, and when she lost to someone, she would blame it on having an off-day, bad weather conditions or whatever, and would expect to have beaten them on an `average' day.

Graf would make her excuses in advance, citing a major injury just before a tournament began, and then saying after winning a round or two that she almost pulled out of the tournament before it started. That way, if she won she was perceived as an even greater heroine, and if she lost then the excuse was in place for her already.

OsloErik
Jun 21st, 2008, 05:47 AM
Graf regarded all her opponents as inherently inferior, and when she lost to someone, she would blame it on having an off-day, bad weather conditions or whatever, and would expect to have beaten them on an `average' day.

Graf would make her excuses in advance, citing a major injury just before a tournament began, and then saying after winning a round or two that she almost pulled out of the tournament before it started. That way, if she won she was perceived as an even greater heroine, and if she lost then the excuse was in place for her already.

Well, they were. There was not a player in the 90's that Graf didn't have her way with at one time or another. The only ones who come close are Seles and Navratilova. And both of them got torn apart by Graf on occasion.

Wrong again. Graf barely spoke in her press conferences. She would say what she thought was the cause of the match result, and she ALWAYS pointed out that the opponent is a legitimate cause for forehand errors. And then she would stop. She never took the bait.

The only top player that has ever to my knowledge given a laundry list of ailments before a tournament is Kim Clijsters. And she was generally broken anyways, so it was accurate. But you're misrepresenting a lot of things here. You can fault Graf for many things, but her professionalism and sportsmanship are beyond question.

RogerPete
Jun 21st, 2008, 06:03 AM
Wrong again. Graf barely spoke in her press conferences. She would say what she thought was the cause of the match result, and she ALWAYS pointed out that the opponent is a legitimate cause for forehand errors. And then she would stop. She never took the bait.

The only top player that has ever to my knowledge given a laundry list of ailments before a tournament is Kim Clijsters. And she was generally broken anyways, so it was accurate. But you're misrepresenting a lot of things here. You can fault Graf for many things, but her professionalism and sportsmanship are beyond question.

Graf, or her camp, would practically publicize the injury beforehand. When she would win, as she usually has over the years, even though everyone by then knew she was suffering from a bad back/ankle/period/father/cold/wrist/neck/toe/finger/sinus infection/etc., it would just add to her aura of invincibility.

If by some chance she were to actually lose, it could go without saying, by the Graf camp, that the injury was responsible, not the play of Graf or her opponent. The media would have the obit all ready in advance, as it were.

The ultimate lesson is that the only woman who can really beat Steffi is Steffi herself.

irma
Jun 21st, 2008, 06:47 AM
Graf, or her camp, would practically publicize the injury beforehand. When she would win, as she usually has over the years, even though everyone by then knew she was suffering from a bad back/ankle/period/father/cold/wrist/neck/toe/finger/sinus infection/etc., it would just add to her aura of invincibility.

If by some chance she were to actually lose, it could go without saying, by the Graf camp, that the injury was responsible, not the play of Graf or her opponent. The media would have the obit all ready in advance, as it were.

The ultimate lesson is that the only woman who can really beat Steffi is Steffi herself.

The German press didn't need Steffi to make a story. They simply liked drama
If Steffi had been in Henin's shoes during australian open 2007 imagine what they would have made up. Maybe the belgian press did too, but I got the feeling there wasn't much speculation what really happened with Henin's marriage. Now if it had been Steffi she probably would have been abused, cheated on and definitely being extremely depressed and etc.


And every topplayer should think that the match is always in their hands. I don't understand why people have a problem with that
If you don't believe that you are the best. Then how can you be the best?

LeRoy.
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:06 AM
What makes Lori McNeil's victory more exceptional was that Steffi Graf had literally dominated the women's tour since winning the French Open in 1993.
Thanks to you know who :o :help:

LeRoy.
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:10 AM
Staying on topic, like someone said Hingis didn't care about the result while Steffi did so the answer is Steffi :shrug:

Mattographer
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:13 AM
Dumb thread :rolleyes: The poster obviously knows nothing about Lori McNeil.

Mattographer
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:15 AM
Staying on topic, like someone said Hingis didn't care about the result while Steffi did so the answer is Steffi :shrug:
Most Humiliating loss at Wimbledon? :p

LeRoy.
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:17 AM
If Hingis cared about the result she would feel humiliated but she just didn't give a fuckity fuck while Steffi was rying hard to win the match so obviously she would feel humiliated after a 1st round loss. Also Steffi was the defending champion while Hingis was not.

Mattographer
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:23 AM
I suppose you're right but still... 2 and 0 is very bad even if she doesn't care :o I mean, she was #1 at the time!

Polikarpov
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:52 AM
I haven't seen the Steffi - McNeil match, but I'll go with that one. Simply because Steffi was defending champion while Hingis, didn't even want to be there.

morbidangle
Jun 21st, 2008, 08:12 AM
LegendsOfTennis, RogerPete is the same person. I am guessing these are new ID's of Selesrules. God knows how many ID's it has made on TennisForum.

ElusiveChanteuse
Jun 21st, 2008, 08:29 AM
Martina Hingis.:shrug:
Steffi was just having an off day perhaps and the scores were pretty close.

Calypso
Jun 21st, 2008, 08:36 AM
Martina won only 2 games against the Dok, so her loss is a lot more humiliating.

Also, Lori McNeil was a far more experienced player at that time of her career; Dokic was just getting started.

So definitely, Martina had the more embarassing loss. I can't choose which one I enjoyed better, though!:devil:

Anabelcroft
Jun 21st, 2008, 11:05 AM
Dokic,of course!

barmaid
Jun 21st, 2008, 12:03 PM
Martina was coming off the most humilating loss of her career losing to Graf at RG where she took the first set and was leading the 2nd before her legendary "melt down".:sad:..as a result she broke from her mother.:angel:...entered Wimbledon unprepared and mentally weak:rolleyes: but give Dokic credit she was a young talent who went on to have a decent career but Martina was "easy pickings" that year!:help: She couldn't wait to fly off with Ivo for "fun in the sun"! :confused::kiss::hearts: C'est la vie!:bounce:

barmaid:wavey:

Princess Fiona
Jun 21st, 2008, 01:41 PM
I remember both matches. Lori McNeil was in very good form (as has been stated before) and yes, it was a shock result, but there was potential for it to have been 'shockier' (is that a word? :eek: ;) ).

I remember watching Hingis vs. Dokic not quite believing what I was seeing. I accept that Hingis wasn't at her best at all but I do think that Dokic played very well on that day - I remember one of the UK journalists comparing her to Monica Seles after that match (I remember reading a Damir and Jelena article before the 1999 tournament, too! Some memories are coming back... ).

Dave.
Jun 21st, 2008, 01:43 PM
I think Martina's 1R loss in 2001 to Ruano-Pascual 6-4 6-2 is even worse than the Dokic loss.

Uranium
Jun 21st, 2008, 01:45 PM
Hingis has had a lot of bad losses at Wimbledon

NeeemZ
Jun 21st, 2008, 01:48 PM
I think Martina's 1R loss in 2001 to Ruano-Pascual 6-4 6-2 is even worse than the Dokic loss.

This would be more embarrasing I believe. This was completely unexpected and there really is no excuse for that loss, whereas her loss against Dokic can be somewhat linked to her confidence and the fact that she didn't wanna be there in the first place, considering the events of RG.

*Jool*
Jun 21st, 2008, 02:02 PM
Of course Hingis's

Lori :hearts:

OsloErik
Jun 21st, 2008, 02:40 PM
Graf, or her camp, would practically publicize the injury beforehand.

...

If by some chance she were to actually lose, it could go without saying, by the Graf camp, that the injury was responsible, not the play of Graf or her opponent. The media would have the obit all ready in advance, as it were.

You're getting Steffi's camp confused with the German media. She despised the media, of any country, and her camp was certainly not responsible for that kind of publicity. Unlike Clijsters (or Sabatini, now that I think about it), Graf's team never released official statements about her physical problems until she was having surgery. The German media made all kinds of speculation, but Steffi and her camp were always silent until directly asked in a mandatory press conference.

cn ireland
Jun 21st, 2008, 04:27 PM
I don't think Dokic beating Hingis was humiliating as it was obvious that Jelena was going to be a great player so I went for Graf's defeat!

danieln1
Jun 21st, 2008, 05:39 PM
Graf´s defeat was way worse because Dokic is a much better player than Mcneil, also Graf loved grass and won a lot of Wimbledon titles, while Martina won only one, beating nervous wreck choker Novotna in the final

jj74
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:39 PM
Ther's no comparision, in fact Lori lost in the semis in a tight third set against the eventual champion Conchita Martinez.
Dokic was out of the top 100 when she defeated Martina

Slumpsova
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:48 PM
Graf lost bc during that time of her life she has a big problem with her father and tax. Hingis lost bc she has a problem with her mom. these 2 matches are tied.

i think the most humiliating lose is Henin to Daniilidou. even though Eleni is a good grass courter but noone expected that since Justine is the former finalist and reached the semis last time she played :o

Princess Fiona
Jun 21st, 2008, 07:48 PM
I don't think Dokic beating Hingis was humiliating as it was obvious that Jelena was going to be a great player so I went for Graf's defeat!

Yes, Jelena had great potential (and still has great potential - I'm pleased she is doing well again :) ) but I don't think she'd really done anything (with respect to Jelena) to make too many people think she could go out and beat Hingis like that. I remember (I seem to be having a lot of memories today ;) ) Sue Barker on the BBC talking to somebody about the match and how unexpected it was. And it was an overwhelming scoreline, too...

Nicolás89
Jun 21st, 2008, 08:03 PM
Hingis', but Martina clearly tanked that match. ;)

pov
Jun 21st, 2008, 10:22 PM
Graf regarded all her opponents as inherently inferior,
Not so. Graf was always very insecure, was driven by feeling she needed to prove herself. Yeah she did make excuses, etc but that was because of her insecurities,

Erakovic
Jun 21st, 2008, 10:35 PM
Dokic for sure.

Almost like the Karlovic-Hewitt match

Apoleb
Jun 21st, 2008, 10:36 PM
Not so. Graf was always very insecure, was driven by feeling she needed to prove herself. Yeah she did make excuses, etc but that was because of her insecurities,

Now I know why Steffi and Justine understand so well each other. :D

Shvedbarilescu
Jun 21st, 2008, 10:54 PM
If Hingis cared about the result she would feel humiliated but she just didn't give a fuckity fuck while Steffi was rying hard to win the match so obviously she would feel humiliated after a 1st round loss. Also Steffi was the defending champion while Hingis was not.

Hingis may not have given a damn or felt humiliated herself, but in terms of how others percieved the match she was most certainly humiliated and her reputation definately took a dip.

Sam L
Jun 21st, 2008, 11:52 PM
Steffi. Monica was stabbed and she still couldn't win Wimbledon. :eek:

Martina was suffering from the abuse she suffered in Paris so it's excusable. It's a miracle she even turned up.

OsloErik
Jun 22nd, 2008, 12:48 AM
Graf´s defeat was way worse because Dokic is a much better player than Mcneil, also Graf loved grass and won a lot of Wimbledon titles, while Martina won only one, beating nervous wreck choker Novotna in the final

Dokic at 16 vs. McNeil at 30? McNeil was a far superior player. She was pushing the top 20, had won a grass title WEEKS earlier, and would have been seeded in the modern day.

McNeil would have been on anyone's list of potentially dangerous floaters before the tournament. Also worth pointing out that Graf's ego was smarting from the '94 French semifinal against Pierce, her worst loss at a slam, and it was her first match on grass in a year. That was a match starred on everyone's draw as one to watch.

Dokic, by comparison, was a complete unknown. She didn't exist, as far as a tennis player goes, until after that match.

The comparison would be like Arantxa Rus (unknown teenager) beating, say, Maria Sharapova (young top 5er) in the first round this year (can't happen, I know, but...) versus Tammy Tanasugarn beating Venus Williams in the 1st round. Which is more embarrassing? Seems obvious to me...

Hingiswinsthis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:32 AM
real tennis fans know that Hingis tanked that match with Dokic. She didn't care, she went to the beach the next day and probably had a romantic time with her boy friend at the time ;-)

bobcat
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:33 AM
McNeil was a former top 10 player and former top 5 doubles player, had just won Birmingham, and had beaten Graf before at the year end championships. Dokic was still unheard of. Hingis' loss was by far worse. But I agree that her loss to VRP topped the Dokic loss.

Shimizu Amon
Jun 22nd, 2008, 07:40 AM
McNeil vs Graf was a fight (even when Graf wasn't on her best), the match Dokic vs Hingis was just embarrassing.

MLF
Jun 22nd, 2008, 09:34 AM
Dokic is a much better player than Mcneil

I guess you have never seen Lori McNeil playing and don't know much about her.

Graf and McNeil had many very hard fought matches over the years, Lori was the worst possible 1st round draw for her.

Joseph73
Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:52 AM
Graf´s defeat was way worse because Dokic is a much better player than Mcneil, also Graf loved grass and won a lot of Wimbledon titles, while Martina won only one, beating nervous wreck choker Novotna in the final

McNeil was one of the top ten grass-court players at that time.

Joseph73
Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:54 AM
Graf lost bc during that time of her life she has a big problem with her father and tax. ...

Graf didn't have any problems in 1994 with her father and taxes.
Actually she had a problem with taxes even in 1994. But she didn't know that then .... :lol:

Joseph73
Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:57 AM
Steffi. Monica was stabbed and she still couldn't win Wimbledon. :eek:

Martina was suffering from the abuse she suffered in Paris so it's excusable. It's a miracle she even turned up.

Graf won many Wimbledon titles with Seles in the field.
She even played Monica twice in Wimbledon.

Monica won 4 of 28 games ... :tape:

rolandg
Jun 22nd, 2008, 02:59 PM
Graf won many Wimbledon titles with Seles in the field.
She even played Monica twice in Wimbledon.

Monica won 4 of 28 games ... :tape:

Oh great, Calimero's back.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 03:32 PM
I guess you have never seen Lori McNeil playing and don't know much about her.

Graf and McNeil had many very hard fought matches over the years, Lori was the worst possible 1st round draw for her.

Graf appeared at the press conference afterwards, you could tell she'd been crying and was horribly devastated by the loss.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 03:41 PM
Dokic at 16 vs. McNeil at 30? McNeil was a far superior player.

Graf's record as a #1 and at Wimbledon were superior to what the young Hingis' had in her 1999 loss to Dokic. Graf's historic first round Wimby loss to a Thirty year old and past her prime McNeil was extremely more shocking. This was the first time in the history of Wimbledon that a defending champ has been ousted in the opening round.

morbidangle
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:04 PM
Ultimate battle! Cali Vs Selesrules!

Go Cali kick Selesrules' ass! :lol::lol:

morbidangle
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:07 PM
Graf appeared at the press conference afterwards, you could tell she'd been crying and was horribly devastated by the loss.
Stop making new Ids.. and stop lying about Steffi... You're such a loser!

markdelaney
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:14 PM
Hingis' defeat to Ruano-Pascual was more humiliating in my opinion

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:19 PM
Ultimate battle! Cali Vs Selesrules!

Go Cali kick Selesrules' ass! :lol::lol:

Selesrules???:tape::help: You sound like a brainless grafan. There's no hope for that condition.:lol:

morbidangle
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:21 PM
Selesrules???:tape::help: You sound like a brainless grafan. There's no hope for that condition.:lol:
:lol: Not everyone is intelligent enough to create 100 ID's u know! :lol:

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:23 PM
McNeil was one of the top ten grass-court players at that time.

If Graf wins, you yell "Steffi is the KNIFE Greatest!". And if Steffi loses, you yell "Steffi wasn't in top form!"...:lol::lol::lol:

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:26 PM
:lol: Not everyone is intelligent enough to create 100 ID's u know! :lol:

Wow Grafan - I'm thrown off by that intelligent retort.:lol::lol::lol:

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:52 PM
Graf didn't have any problems in 1994 with her father and taxes.
Actually she had a problem with taxes even in 1994. But she didn't know that then .... :lol:

It's amazing and fascinating that her 22** GS** aren't enough for these freakazoids, every Graf loss is due to *unprecedented*, unimaginable, inconceivable, yada, yada, yada, crisis.

Take your pick "sinus, back, knee, bad cold, media witchhunt, having her period on the court, peter Graf. ab strains, 3 year slump due to daddygate, and so forth and so..." And if people don't buy into this schzerhezade list of 1001 excuses it's because the meanies they "don't like" Graf.. :lol::lol:

AND in addition to that, you add that when Graf wasn't #1, Seles really wasn't the dominant player, she really wasn't up to par, was bound to start slippping,. it was apparent Graf was going to regain #1 conincidentally right when Seles gets stabbed....:help::lol:

OsloErik
Jun 22nd, 2008, 04:55 PM
Graf appeared at the press conference afterwards, you could tell she'd been crying and was horribly devastated by the loss.

Any time the world #1 loses to an unseeded player it's embarrassing. But McNeil was hardly some scrub without any game. Everyone who knew anything about tennis could tell that McNeil would be a battle. McNeil had already beaten Graf, had something like 8 grass matches under her belt (in singles alone) that season, and possessed a very dangerous game.

For the casual fan, Graf was more surprising. But for the real fans, Hingis was more humiliating. Because it demonstrated the decline of Hingis as a player, from someone who was hungry for every win to a player who was broken and no longer had the passion. And the fact that a 16 year old nobody whose career fizzled exposed that is even more embarrassing. Hingis might not have been humiliated, but she was numb. It doesn't matter that she didn't care, because everyone else in the top 20 cared, and Hingis never won another slam.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:11 PM
Hingis may not have given a damn

I can hardly blame Hingis for feeling that way. She has been roasted by the press and the rowdy French fans for her conduct at the French final, and she has also had some kind of parting of ways with her mother. It seems like suddenly a lot of things are going wrong in her life, something she is not quite used to. So far life had been primarily rosy, and suddenly things seem to be falling apart.

The least a proud girl can do in these circumstances is to put up an appearance of invulnerability.

OsloErik
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:12 PM
AND in addition to that, you add that when Graf wasn't #1, Seles really wasn't the dominant player, she really wasn't up to par, was bound to start slippping,. it was apparent Graf was going to regain #1 conincidentally right when Seles gets stabbed....:help::lol:

I've run the numbers before, largely because I was curious, and it's not as clear cut as Seles dominating Graf. It's closer to Seles dominating everyone else.

From the French Open in '87 to the Aussie Open in '90 (a 12 slam period) she lost 7 matches.
From the French Open in '90 to the Aussie Open in '93 (a 12 slam period) she lost 21 matches.

Seles beat her a whopping 4 times in that '90-'93 period. Seles wasn't the one to knock Graf off her throne. It was Sabatini (8 wins) and Novotna (3 wins) who did the most surprising damage. Seles was clearly a great player, and the two were clearly going to begin a great rivalry. But Seles doesn't explain why 8 of the 9 matches Sabatini won, in her career, against Graf were in this period, or 3 of Novotna's 4, or Capriati's only win, or McNeil's first, or Garrison's first since 1984, and so on.

Yes, Seles was the best player in the world. But can you honestly say it's because she was dominating Graf? This isn't a Henin-Kuznetsova relationship (16-2? 16-3?), or even a Navratilova-Evert relationship (where the pendulum shifts dramatically). The two barely played enough to call it rivalry. Why? Because others were doing the work FOR Seles. Which doesn't take away from Seles' achievements, obviously, but doesn't exactly indicate that she was dealing with Graf at her very best.

The stabbing is tragic, nobody can deny it, but listen to Seles in any interview and she highlights that she isn't bitter. Take a page out of your book; I promise it will make you a happier person.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:23 PM
I've run the numbers before, largely because I was curious, and it's not as clear cut as Seles dominating Graf. It's closer to Seles dominating everyone else.



When Monica Seles got stabbed, Graf, who had won only 3 GS in 3 1/3 years rose like a phoenix and won 4 straight GS.

Her rise coincided with Seles Stabbing. That is a fact. And it just kills Grafans who wants to pretend the stabbing never happened. Thus all his squacking that during Seles dominant period she *never* dominated Graf. Well, it's hard to dominate someone who doesn't step up to the plate.:lol:

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:42 PM
obviously, but doesn't exactly indicate that she was dealing with Graf at her very best.



Steffi Graf was as good as she could be, given that she didn't have the self-confidence and "aura of intimidation" that comes with knowing (and your opponent's knowing) that you are clearly the best player in the world. Seles robbed her of that.

Seles and Graf squared off for 3 years when both were at peak before the stabbing. Seles DOMINATED the confrontation 8-2/3-1. What else is there to say?

rolandg
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:44 PM
Can this thread be closed?

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:47 PM
Seles beat her a whopping 4 times in that '90-'93 period.

Monica could only beat the players who were good enough to advance through the draw. It wasn't Monica's fault that Steffi lost so many semifinals and quarterfinals in those days .. but, again, Seles won the majority of matches in those years when she did play Steffi Graf.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:49 PM
It was Sabatini (8 wins) and Novotna (3 wins) who did the most surprising damage.

No, Sabatini played with more confidence against Graf because she knew that, thanks to Seles, Graf was no longer the best. Her attitude was probably "hey, if that kid Seles can beat Graf, why can't i...?"

Same with the other top players.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 05:54 PM
This isn't a Henin-Kuznetsova relationship (16-2? 16-3

Seles damaged Graf's confidence, and raised the confidence of the other top players, enough to make Graf more vulnerable to losing.

It's pretty easy to grasp, if you have an open mind.

worldtennis
Jun 22nd, 2008, 06:07 PM
But Seles doesn't explain why 8 of the 9 matches Sabatini won, in her career, against Graf were in this period,


Graf was never worse than #2 when Seles was on top, and she still beat players like ASV, Capriati, McNeil and Novotna more times than not during that time frame. She beat Sabatini the last 4 times they played *before* Seles got stabbed, after Sabatini was knocked out of FO and W 1992.

So when Seles was stabbed, everyone could see that Graf's confidence would soar now that her only obstacle to being 'best' had been removed. They knew they'd lost that edge that came from Graf being down on herself due to not being the best.

It really isn't hard to figure - we see it all the time in other sports as well.

manu32
Jun 22nd, 2008, 06:23 PM
what's is seles doing in this thread??? ( poor thread by the way)....stop this BS ...tomorrow is another day (and today also.)

John.
Jun 22nd, 2008, 06:45 PM
No comparison - Hingis's

hingis44
Jun 22nd, 2008, 07:42 PM
IN 1999, Martina came to lose at the french open and for me at wimbledon sha had a lack of envy to play. And Dokic was a good player also