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Volcana
Jun 9th, 2008, 03:42 AM
I don't like writing that. I rather like the old order. But 'generations' in the WTA are short things. An individual player might be dominant for a long time. But groups of players come and go in five-to-eight year periods. And with the retirements of Henin, Hingis and Clijsters, the cohort that was born from 1978-1983 has more or less had it's run. It's not to say that Venus or Serena can't win more slams. But constant presence in GS semis is clearly a thing of the past for both of them.


Couple that with the third member of the next generation getting her first slam, it now clear that the next generation has taken over. I didn't want to admit that Chris Evert had supplanted Billie Jean King. I didn't want to admit that Steffi Graf had supplanted Martina Navratilova. This is easier, cause it's group vs group, not individuals. But it's going to be Kuznetsova and Ivanovic and Sharapova and Jankovic who make more GS semis than they miss. Venus and/or Serena Williams may win a slam here and there, but third and fourth round exits are now becoming almost commonplace, rather than unheard-of.


We may be five years from clsoing the book on Gen80. But if you think about it, Davenport is from a previous tennisgen. All that's left of Gen80 is Venus, Serena and Elena Dementieva. And all three of them are less dominant than at their respective peaks.


It's not time to write the post-mortem yet, but youngsters had pretty much supplanted the old guard. Cie C'est la vie.

spiritedenergy
Jun 9th, 2008, 03:56 AM
I've stated that during the AO. People didn't believe me:shrug:. I think it really started there, even though 2007 gave a clear idea of what would come.

At AO 2008 the oldest semifinalist was Hantuchova; Sharapova had dismissed Henin, JJ Serena and Ana Venus. It was a clear indication.

VeeJJ
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:05 AM
yeah, but wat would be the old age for tennis??? JJ is 23 and good results are still gonna come for her.

DOUBLEFIST
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:08 AM
I think you both are premature.

If Vee, Serena or any other "old guard" player doesn't come away with a slam or two this year, then I think you can make that pronouncement. It sounds like you're basing your assessments on age, but let's not forget their have been some very premature exits from the game that have had nothing to do with age- Juju, Hingy and Kim. Though they, except for Juju, wouldn't necessarily dominate, they certainly would be factors in any tournament they entered to this day.

So basically, what I'm saying is, I hope you're not basing your assessments so much on the age of those still in they game as much as on the absence of those elite player outside the game.

Tennisstar86
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:11 AM
un-huh... remember 2004.... honestly its too soon to tell... Venus and Serena could easily make the semis of all the slams next year (save RG) and Henin could choose to come out of retirement as could clijsters next year... you just never know...

Whats the 3rd round exits becoming routine? lol Venus lost 3rd round at RG where shes always sucked... shes got the best/ tied with Ivanovic for best GS results in the previous 4.

AnomyBC
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:24 AM
Yup, it appears that way. I'm surprised at how few majors most of them won. In particular, I would have expected Serena to have won a lot more than 8 and Clijsters to have won a lot more than 1. I also would have expected Hingis to have won more than 5 and Davenport to have won more than 3. Henin actually wound up winning more than I expected (which sucks, because I hate her.) Venus and Mauresmo wound up winning about as many as I expected. Dementieva also did better than I expected, because I never expected her to get to a final.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see who wins the most out of the current generation, which includes Sharapova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Chakvetadze, Safina, Bartoli, Zvonareva, Radwanska, Szavay, Azarenka, Cornet, Vaidisova, Golovin, Kirilenko and Peer, among others.

(Edited to fix Hingis' major title count.)

Paneru
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Obit #(?) written for V&S! :cool:

Tennisstar86
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:32 AM
Yup, it appears that way. I'm surprised at how few majors most of them won. In particular, I would have expected Serena to have won a lot more than 8 and Clijsters to have won a lot more than 1. I also would have expected Hingis to have won more than 6 and Davenport to have won more than 3. Henin actually wound up winning more than I expected (which sucks, because I hate her.) Venus and Mauresmo wound up winning about as many as I expected. Dementieva also did better than I expected, because I never expected her to get to a final.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see who wins the most out of the current generation, which includes Sharapova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Kuznetsova, Chakvetadze, Safina, Bartoli, Zvonareva, Radwanska, Szavay, Azarenka, Cornet, Vaidisova, Golovin, Kirilenko and Peer, among others.

Hingis didnt end with 6.... Dementieva's days arent over yet neither are Serenas or Venus' lol.....

LudwigDvorak
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:35 AM
Blue = top five.
Red = top ten.

Ivanovic, Sharapova, Chakvetadze - 1987.
Safina. - 1986.
Kuznetsova, Jankovic - 1985.
Bartoli - 1984.
Dementieva, S. Williams - 1981.
V. Williams - 1980.

Chakvetadze was top five not very long ago, same as Serena. Serena and Elena will alternate the #5 position for awhile, probably. Bartoli will be exiting soon, and any range of Hantuchova (1983), Schnyder (1979), and Zvonareva (1984) will be ready to pounce.

So, of the top fifteen, the youngest are Radwanska and Szavay (89, 88 respectively). And they're the lowest ranked of the fifteen.

We still haven't entirely transitioned. Dementieva, Williams, Williams, Schnyder, Hantuchova, Zvonareva, and Bartoli are still around and in the top fifteen, although I'm not sure how much of a threat they are to the biggest titles (add in the word "consistently" if you're offended by this applying to your favorite), even with this transitional period up at the top.

It just amuses me Kuznetsova and Sharapova have been household names (to tennis fans) for at least half a decade now nearly. I guess it just shows how young they were when they broke out that they'll still be challenging for these titles for a few years to come.

What's most frustrating is that the sisters and Dementieva can't take advantage of this time period now, at least moreso than they are now. Oh well. I still have Lindsay for the remainder of this year...I'll treasure that as long as I can.

AnomyBC
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:35 AM
It sounds like you're basing your assessments on age

It has nothing to do with age, it's just based on the fact that the Belgians (and Hingis and Capriati and probably Davenport and Mauresmo very soon) are retired and the Williams sisters have both won only 2 major titles in almost 5 years. Unless the Williams make a comeback or the Belgians come out of retirement, then that generation is pretty much over. (I do think Serena will probably win at least 1 or 2 more major titles though.)

AnomyBC
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Hingis didnt end with 6....

Ugh, it was only 5 wasn't it? I think I'm still in denial about her losing to Majoli :sad:

Tennisstar86
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:43 AM
It has nothing to do with age, it's just based on the fact that the Belgians (and Hingis and Capriati and probably Davenport and Mauresmo very soon) are retired and the Williams sisters have both won only 2 major titles in almost 5 years. Unless the Williams make a comeback or the Belgians come out of retirement, then that generation is pretty much over. (I do think Serena will probably win at least 1 or 2 more major titles though.)

only 2 majors lol.... most players dont win 1..... They arent gonna win this all, but they are still winning them....I think its interesting that Serena who currently holds no major title will win 1 to 2 more while venus who holds wimbledon and dominates on grass is done...:tape:

kiwifan
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:47 AM
Its always safe to write off Venus and Serena during Clay Court Season...

...let's see how they do at Wimbledon and the US Open before we turn the page :armed:...

...although if you keep writing this crap every year, eventually you'll be correct. :p

Vlover
Jun 9th, 2008, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=kiwifan;13351857]Its always safe to write off Venus and Serena during Clay Court Season...

...let's see how they do at Wimbledon and the US Open before we turn the page :armed:...


I totally concur with you. If they put in a dismal performance in this phase of the season then I'll concede but presently I'm not there yet. The Sisters still have the game to contend with any of these top players. I'm still of the belief that they still have at least 2-3 years contention still left in them because I don't see any of these younger girls dominating the game like any of the veterans did.

RenaSlam.
Jun 9th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Ajde.

Dawson.
Jun 9th, 2008, 02:15 PM
i thinks its a bit too soon for this thread!

hingis-seles
Jun 9th, 2008, 02:32 PM
I remember this happened in '97-'99.

Hingis ruled in 1997 and the US Open that year had a Hingis-Venus final and Kournikova in the Wimbledon SF. Arantxa struggled, as did Monica. Steffi went into freefall and took most of the year off. It was predicted that Hingis, Venus, and Anna would rule the game.

In 1998, Serena made her presence felt, as did Hingis, Venus and Kournikova. However, after the Aussie we had a Seles-Sanchez Vicario final at RG and a Novotna-Tauziat final at Wimbledon. With two back-to-back old guard finals, Davenport (who sat on the cusp between the 2 generations) won the US Open. Hingis was the only player to represent teens in the final that year.

In 1999, Steffi and Lindsay won Slams, but Hingis and Serena both won Slams. Steffi and Jana left. Arantxa and Monica followed. Hingis and Davenport would become perennial finalists and semifinalists and Capriati-Williams X2 took over before Russia invaded us.

I feel like we're just creeping out of 1998 and heading into 1999 (if you compare stages of progression in the changing of the guard to the previous "major change").

ZeroSOFInfinity
Jun 9th, 2008, 02:55 PM
How I miss the old war screams of "Allez" and "Come On!"...

Then again, there's "Adje!" and... well, "Come On!" :lol:

miffedmax
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:46 PM
I'm afraid you have to concede the times are a-changin' when the last of the Old Guard at a major to be dismissed are Dementieva and Schynder, and they lost in the quarters.

Although I'm partly blinded by the fact I'm a fan, I think it is a fact that Dementieva is actually off to her best start ever, though. She seems to have fixed a lot of her serve mechanics, but she's still a major headcase. I do think she has a decent chance at pulling off something, as her record against the young guns is better than her record against her contemporaries.

And I'd never count Venus and Serena out.

But overall, yes, we are seeing the Indian summer of some great women who have given us wonderful rivalries and years of great tennis.

InsideOut.
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:54 PM
un-huh... remember 2004.... honestly its too soon to tell... Venus and Serena could easily make the semis of all the slams next year (save RG) and Henin could choose to come out of retirement as could clijsters next year... you just never know...

Whats the 3rd round exits becoming routine? lol Venus lost 3rd round at RG where shes always sucked... shes got the best/ tied with Ivanovic for best GS results in the previous 4.


W-SF-QF-3R better than SF-4R-F-W? ok...:lol:

goldenlox
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:02 PM
The big break out was Safina, who turned 22 in April. If she is legit on all surfaces, that makes the younger group stronger.
But right now, Sharapova still seems like the best of the young group. And that hasn't changed for years.

AcesHigh
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:06 PM
Yea.. but this is old news. AO 2008 was the big shift. Serena, Venus, and Elena aren't done yet, but it seems like they're on their way out and I think only Serena, of that group, has the ability to win big titles consistently.

meyerpl
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:07 PM
I don't think anyone is saying Venus, Serena, Elena or anyone are done, they just don't dominate the game like they used to. You don't want to write them off any more than you'd write off an older baseball slugger with power and a career .320 average who has slipped into the .260's. They can still knock one out of the park. Venus and Serena are still capable of beating anyone and winning slams but the old order has clearly changed; it's reflected in tournament results and rankings. Legends who are still playing the game are a joy to see; enjoy watching them play while we still can.

I've seen the "old guard" change so many times I'm not too saddened by it anymore. It's made me more a fan of the game and less a fan of individual players, which has made being a fan a lot more fun.

Smackie
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:21 PM
I sort of agree with the original poster. Sometimes you just have to shift so the new generation of players can take over. We are definately on the 'turn' right now.

It's sad coz we have had some characters in the last generation. Of the big ones, only Serena and Venus left. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying they won't win any more GS titles but even if they do, it's not going to be like it used to be ie, when they played, they won or they got to the very very end of the tournement.

It's sad but we should at the same time be thankful that we witness some great tennis - which I don't think we will see again in the next 2-3 years.

I miss the time of the prev Big Four (V&S, Justine and Kim). That was probably the best time (for me at least) within the last 8 years or so.

DownTheLine21
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:31 PM
I'm afraid you have to concede the times are a-changin' when the last of the Old Guard at a major to be dismissed are Dementieva and Schynder, and they lost in the quarters.

Although I'm partly blinded by the fact I'm a fan, I think it is a fact that Dementieva is actually off to her best start ever, though. She seems to have fixed a lot of her serve mechanics, but she's still a major headcase. I do think she has a decent chance at pulling off something, as her record against the young guns is better than her record against her contemporaries.

And I'd never count Venus and Serena out.

But overall, yes, we are seeing the Indian summer of some great women who have given us wonderful rivalries and years of great tennis.

I definitely agree. Dementieva is so much more consistent now, and her serve is no longer a liability. I hate when people say that 2004 was her peak year. This may be true, but she's better than a 1R-F-1R-F GS record.

Apoleb
Jun 9th, 2008, 05:35 PM
Elena or anyone are done, they just don't dominate the game like they used to

I'm sorry but I have to point out that Demented never dominated anything. :o

I don't think the younger generation has "taken over." Serena is still 26, and will go as favorite into Wimbledon. That says a lot about who's taken over. Had Justine and Kim not retired the "previous generation" would still be in control. The analogy to 97/99 is not correct. The older generation then aside from Graf was getting demolished by the new comers.

miffedmax
Jun 9th, 2008, 07:08 PM
I've seen the "old guard" change so many times I'm not too saddened by it anymore. It's made me more a fan of the game and less a fan of individual players, which has made being a fan a lot more fun.

Except, of course, when said invidual is a foul-mouthed, self-contradicting, horseback riding brunette.

Slutiana
Jun 9th, 2008, 07:12 PM
:lol:

I can't wait to see them prove you guys wrong (Dementieva included).

meyerpl
Jun 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM
Except, of course, when said invidual is a foul-mouthed, self-contradicting, horseback riding brunette.Well.........naturally!

meyerpl
Jun 9th, 2008, 07:22 PM
I don't think the younger generation has "taken over."Not taken over, taking over.
It doesn't happen overnight, but rankings and tournament results are an objective measure and the handwriting is on the wall.

meyerpl
Jun 9th, 2008, 07:36 PM
But overall, yes, we are seeing the Indian summer of some great women who have given us wonderful rivalries and years of great tennis.Nicely put, Max, although it wouldn't sound as poetic if my doctor told me I'm in the "Indian summer" of my sex life.

Yes, transitions in sports get easier the more you've lived through. I had a hell of a time wrapping my brain around the idea that Helen Wills Moody wouldn't be dominating Wimbledon anymore, didn't you?

Volcana
Jun 9th, 2008, 08:53 PM
I think you both are premature.

If Vee, Serena or any other "old guard" player doesn't come away with a slam or two this year, then I think you can make that pronouncement. It sounds like you're basing your assessments on ageNot age, or rather, not only age, but consistency of performance. Venus, for example is still capable of winning slams. But the last few years have seen more and more exits in the first week of a slam. Look at 2006-2008

2006 r1 QF r3 --
2007 -- r3 CH SF
2008 QF r3

By comparison, from 2000 thru 2003, Venus played 14 slams and made the final 9 times.


The larger point, though, is the elite players, it's the next level. There are only five players over age 25 in the entire top twenty, and none of them are consistently in the semis of the slams. As I said in the opening post though, we may be five years from closing the book Venus, Serena, Hingis, Kournikova, Henin, Clijsters class of players. But Chakvetadze, Ivanovic, Sharapova, Kuznetsova, Jankovic, Safina etc have to be considered established players now, while the new names are Radwanska, Szavay And Cornet. And Vaidisova is only 19, even now.

LudwigDvorak
Jun 9th, 2008, 09:03 PM
Yea.. but this is old news. AO 2008 was the big shift. Serena, Venus, and Elena aren't done yet, but it seems like they're on their way out and I think only Serena, of that group, has the ability to win big titles consistently.

Elena is on her way out? :o I know you like her, but come on...she's having a great season with a solid grand slam record.

Serena and Elena are definitely not on the way out, not soon at least. Serena was having the second best season up until the Berlin QF, now she's "on the way out." Venus is "only" a major factor on grass and a definite factor on the summer hardcourts, but when all of that encompasses two grand slams, Venus is doing fine. And Elena will always be a dangerous opponent regardless of circumstance.

Are they dominating? No. Is anyone dominating? Not really.

Marshmallow
Jun 10th, 2008, 01:10 AM
I agree Volcana :yeah: In simple terms, Venus and Serena are past their peaks, and a new Generation of quality players are reaching theirs. It's their time to shine. But Venus and Serena are still very capable of making noise consistently IMO. Serena's form this year has been pretty good, her clay run wasn't the best - but coming into her favourite time of year, if she can stay healthy and hungry, she's capable of making it clear that this new order is not Waxing just yet. Venus is inconsistent, but she too can put the new order in their place - if only on occasions when there stars align :D

But definitely, Ana, Maria, Svetlana and Jelena are ones to watch. Their era is is flow.

AcesHigh
Jun 10th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Elena is on her way out? :o I know you like her, but come on...she's having a great season with a solid grand slam record.

Serena and Elena are definitely not on the way out, not soon at least. Serena was having the second best season up until the Berlin QF, now she's "on the way out." Venus is "only" a major factor on grass and a definite factor on the summer hardcourts, but when all of that encompasses two grand slams, Venus is doing fine. And Elena will always be a dangerous opponent regardless of circumstance.

Are they dominating? No. Is anyone dominating? Not really.

By on their way out, I simply mean that they are reaching the last years of their careers. I don't expect to see any of the 3 in the top 5-10 in 5 years. Serena could still win several of the slams+Olympics. Same with Elena. I barely mean that Serena and Venus aren't the same forces they were and Elena won't be around forever.

AcesHigh
Jun 10th, 2008, 07:55 AM
Elena is on her way out? :o I know you like her, but come on...she's having a great season with a solid grand slam record.

Serena and Elena are definitely not on the way out, not soon at least. Serena was having the second best season up until the Berlin QF, now she's "on the way out." Venus is "only" a major factor on grass and a definite factor on the summer hardcourts, but when all of that encompasses two grand slams, Venus is doing fine. And Elena will always be a dangerous opponent regardless of circumstance.

Are they dominating? No. Is anyone dominating? Not really.

And about Elena.. I was just really disappointed this RG with Kuzy and Elena. I was hoping so bad either of them would win it and they both blew a big chance, and their losses were somewhat shocking and hard to take. So it's just hard to keep faith in both.
All these letdowns and implosions make me wonder whether Elena has the mental fortitude or simple consistency to win a major title or stay in the top 5. That's probably affecting my expectations of her.