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View Full Version : Who's the better player on clay???


ElusiveChanteuse
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:01 PM
I'm focusing on active players who have won a title in Roland Garros(including players who have not been offcially announcing their retirements).;)

1. Mary Pierce (2000)- 1 W,2 F and 1 QF in 15 appearances(44-14).Won Rome once and Palermo twice.
2. Jennifer Capriati (2001)- 1 W,3 SF and 2 QF in 11 appearances(39-10).Won Barcelona Olympics and Strasbourg once.
3. Serena Williams (2002)- 1 W,1 SF and 3 QF in 8 appearances(31-7) in RG.Won Rome once.
4. Anastasia Myskina (2004)- 1 W in 8 appearances(11-7).Won Palermo once.
5. Ana Ivanovic (2008)- 1 W,1 F and 1 QF in 4 appearances(19-3).Won Berlin once.

*doesn't include green clay events.:)

So who do you think is the best among these five players?
and please also make your rank 1-5 among them.

Mine are:
1. Jennifer Capriati
2. Mary Pierce
3. Serena Williams
4. Ana Ivanovic
5. Anastasia Myskina

Galsen
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:04 PM
even if she lost Serena healthy and focus she can beat anyone

Watching
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:10 PM
If Serena played 80% and any of those opponents played the same percentage (change to any other percentage you wish), she would win.

So Serena, then Capriati, then Pierce, then Ivanovic and finally Myskina.

Dodoboy.
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Serena, Capriati, Pierce, Ana then Myskina.

Kworb
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:13 PM
1. Serena
2. Pierce
3. Capriati
4. Myskina




5. Ivanovic

homogenius
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:24 PM
Pierce.She won all the big events on clay (RG, Rome, Hilton H. trashing Seles and Sanchez on her way, and Amelia A.) except Berlin (final), and has some finals as well.
She had also some good wins over Graf (#1), Seles, Sanchez, Hingis (#1), Martinez, Davenport (#1) in RG (and made 3 finals here, lost 2 against Sanchez and Henin).

I'd say Pierce, Capriati, Serena, Ana and Myskina.

AnnaK_4ever
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Pierce > Capriati > Serena > Ivanovic >>>>>>>>>>> Myskina

LucasArg
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Serena of course.

Brooklyn90
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:34 PM
1. Serena
2. Pierce
3. Capriati
4. Ana
5. Myskina

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:38 PM
It's hard to say Serena when she has only 2 red clay wins.

If Pierce plays to her abilities, I think she could wipe the floor with any of those on the list. Also, Ivanovic is only 20..a lot younger than anyone on that list.

LindsayRulz
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:38 PM
Pierce > Capriati > Serena > Ivanovic >>>>>>>>>>> Myskina

I agree.

morbidangle
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:38 PM
on clay...Pierce. Most RG finals seals it. Plus she was much bigger of a threat on clay than the others.
With all due respect, other than 2002, Serena has never reached a final on red clay. She hasnt reached the semifinals on red clay since 2003!

Carsten
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Jenny :worship:

DOUBLEFIST
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:47 PM
going by win percentage, obviously this question is skewed toward Ana, but I go with JCap. She played more on clay than Ana and has maintained a pretty good win percentage.

Serenidad.
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Pierce > Serena > Capriati > Myskina > Ivanovic.

Olórin
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:49 PM
It's hard to say Serena when she has only 2 red clay wins.

If Pierce plays to her abilities, I think she could wipe the floor with any of those on the list. Also, Ivanovic is only 20..a lot younger than anyone on that list.

What I don't get is that people (including "fans") always bring up that Serena has only ever one Rome once and RG once, as a reason for discouting her skills on clay compared to other elite players, but never bring up facts like Capriati never won Berlin or Rome, or that Pierce has only ever won 2 red clay titles tier one or above.

And in a thread discussing who is better on clay why are we not taking Green Clay into account? It's clay isn't it, and two well established tournaments are played on it.

Fact is Serena's record on clay is as good as any other of the elite clay courters. The only people who have substantially better records imo are Hingis and Henin.

It's a toss up between Serena and Pierce really.

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:54 PM
What I don't get is that people (including "fans") always bring up that Serena has only ever one Rome once and RG once, as a reason for discouting her skills on clay compared to other elite players, but never bring up facts like Capriati never won Berlin or Rome, or that Pierce has only ever won 2 red clay titles tier one or above.

And in a thread discussing who is better on clay why are we not taking Green Clay into account? It's clay isn't it, and two well established tournaments are played on it.

Fact is Serena's record on clay is as good as any other of the elite clay courters. The only people who have substantially better records imo are Hingis and Henin.

It's a toss up between Serena and Pierce really.

It's not. The results PIerce has are more impressive (1 RG win, 3 finals) and multiple wins over great claycourters.

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 09:56 PM
And Serena elite on clay? What great claycourters has she beaten and she's only been to the RG semi's twice. And she's won red clay titles in one year.. that's it.

homogenius
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:17 PM
What I don't get is that people (including "fans") always bring up that Serena has only ever one Rome once and RG once, as a reason for discouting her skills on clay compared to other elite players, but never bring up facts like Capriati never won Berlin or Rome, or that Pierce has only ever won 2 red clay titles tier one or above.

And in a thread discussing who is better on clay why are we not taking Green Clay into account? It's clay isn't it, and two well established tournaments are played on it.

Fact is Serena's record on clay is as good as any other of the elite clay courters. The only people who have substantially better records imo are Hingis and Henin.

It's a toss up between Serena and Pierce really.

Additionnal stats :

Titles :
Pierce 6 (RG, Rome, Hilton H, Amelia I., Palermo x2)
Capriati 4 (RG, Olympics, Charleston, Strasbourg)
Serena 3 (RG, Charleston, Rome)
Ivanovic 2 (RG, Berlin)
Myskina 2 (RG, Palermo, Sarasota)

Finals :
Pierce 9 (RG x2, Berlin, Rome, Amelia I. x2, Houston, Hambourg, Palermo)
Capriati 3 (Berlin, Rome, Hilton, H.)
Serena 2 (Berlin, Charleston)
Ivanovic 1 (RG)
Myskina 1 (Istambul)

TOP10 wins at RG :
Pierce 6(Graf #1, Seles #3, Hingis #1, Martinez #5, Davenport #1, Schnyder #10)
Capriati 5(Fernandez #8, Serena #7, Hingis #1, Dokic #9, Serena #7)
Ivanovic 4(Mauresmo #3, Kuzy #3, Sharapova #2, Jankovic #3)
Serena 3(Capriati #1, Venus #2, Mauresmo #5)
Myskina 3 (Venus #9, Capriati #6, Dementieva #10)

Without dismissing Serena's skills on clay, I think it's more a battle between Pierce and Capriati, and Pierce is ahead imo.She had better results, especially at RG with 3 finals (the last one reached at 30 years old)and a 1 win.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:25 PM
Pierce , Capriati , Serena , Myskina and Ivanovic in that order

Olórin
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:29 PM
It's not. The results PIerce has are more impressive (1 RG win, 3 finals) and multiple wins over great claycourters.

Pierce's RG results are better overall which why I would give her an edge. I still feel that when they both play well on clay it's a toss up though, considering Serena's movement. Way to ignore the rest of my post btw :lol:

Pierce doesn't have multiple wins over any more great clay courters than Serena, once again you totally bias your arguments against Serena.

ASP0315
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:34 PM
Definetly pierce.

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:37 PM
Pierce's RG results are better overall which why I would give her an edge. I still feel that when they both play well on clay it's a toss up though, considering Serena's movement. Way to ignore the rest of my post btw :lol:

Pierce doesn't have multiple wins over any more great clay courters than Serena, once again you totally bias your arguments against Serena.

My bias against Serena? I've been rooting for her since 1999 when I was 12. Just because I'm a fan, doesn't mean I can't see the obvious. The only thing that makes Serena's career comparable to clay elite is her French Open title. Take that out and she has nothing but a title at Rome. Not even another final at RG or a few other semi's. IMO, it's biased to say it's a toss up between Serena and Pierce b/c 1W+2RU>>1W and Pierce's blitzing of Graf is greater than anything Serena has done on clay.

Olórin
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:45 PM
My bias against Serena? I've been rooting for her since 1999 when I was 12. Just because I'm a fan, doesn't mean I can't see the obvious. The only thing that makes Serena's career comparable to clay elite is her French Open title. Take that out and she has nothing but a title at Rome. Not even another final at RG or a few other semi's. IMO, it's biased to say it's a toss up between Serena and Pierce b/c 1W+2RU>>1W and Pierce's blitzing of Graf is greater than anything Serena has done on clay.

Irony is that you can't see the obvious which is that is not you're not a fan. I've been reading your posts for over a year and I find it very hard to regard you as a fan. Of Venus yes, but Serena no.

Only a title at Rome, short term memory loss? What about Charleston? Don't even think of saying it's on Green Clay, because the Charleston winner has actually done better at RG in the past ten years than the Rome Champion. Once again you bias your arguments to make Serena look as lacking as possible.

I was talking about overall ability shown on clay when I said it was a toss up between Serena and Mary. The OP never said base your opinion on stats only.

Achievements wise Mary does have the edge, but that's all it is, an edge. Their achievements are of the same order.

Olórin
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:48 PM
Additionnal stats :

Titles :
Pierce 6 (RG, Rome, Hilton H, Amelia I., Palermo x2)
Capriati 4 (RG, Olympics, Charleston, Strasbourg)
Serena 3 (RG, Charleston, Rome)
Ivanovic 2 (RG, Berlin)
Myskina 2 (RG, Palermo, Sarasota)

Finals :
Pierce 9 (RG x2, Berlin, Rome, Amelia I. x2, Houston, Hambourg, Palermo)
Capriati 3 (Berlin, Rome, Hilton, H.)
Serena 2 (Berlin, Charleston)
Ivanovic 1 (RG)
Myskina 1 (Istambul)

TOP10 wins at RG :
Pierce 6(Graf #1, Seles #3, Hingis #1, Martinez #5, Davenport #1, Schnyder #10)
Capriati 5(Fernandez #8, Serena #7, Hingis #1, Dokic #9, Serena #7)
Ivanovic 4(Mauresmo #3, Kuzy #3, Sharapova #2, Jankovic #3)
Serena 3(Capriati #1, Venus #2, Mauresmo #5)
Myskina 3 (Venus #9, Capriati #6, Dementieva #10)

Without dismissing Serena's skills on clay, I think it's more a battle between Pierce and Capriati, and Pierce is ahead imo.She had better results, especially at RG with 3 finals (the last one reached at 30 years old)and a 1 win.

Some more stats from wtatour.com

Winning % on clay
Serena 79%
Capriati 72%
Pierce 69%

Also, worth bearing in mind that Pierce achieved a lot at a later age, which Serena has not even reached yet...so the list is still a work in progress. The arguments for Capriati and Pierce are easier to make, but Serena's achievements are comparable enough for her not to be dismissed from the discussion by anyone imo.

AnomyBC
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:53 PM
1. Ivanovic
2. Pierce
3. Capriati
4. Serena
5. Myskina

If Ivanovic retired right now, then Pierce would be #1, but I think by the end of her career Ivanovic will easily have more clay titles than any of those other girls. I mean, she's only 20 and she's already pretty close to even with the rest of them in terms of achievements on clay. That's pretty impressive.

homogenius
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:00 PM
Some more stats from wtatour.com

Winning % on clay
Serena 79%
Capriati 72%
Pierce 69%

Also, worth bearing in mind that Pierce achieved a lot at a later age, which Serena has not even reached yet...so the list is still a work in progress. The arguments for Capriati and Pierce are easier to make, but Serena's achievements are comparable enough for her not to be dismissed from the discussion by anyone imo.

lol.She's hardly dismissed from the discussion : she's leading the poll.
Pierce is simply better on this one (and even Capriati is).Most of her achievments on clay were before 2001(cause after 2000, her only full seasons at a competitive level were 2004 and 2005).Serena had a great opportunity this year (with henin out).She came with a good preparation on clay, only to lose to Srebotnik in the 3rd.So time goes by for Serena too, and I don't see her make a final at 30 like Pierce did (but who knows...).

Without even regarding achievements, the wins Pierce had on clay against great clay players (trashed Seles and Sanchez in Hilton H., losing only 3 games, beat Graf 6-2 6-2 at RG, defeated Hingis, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez several times etc...)are just more impressive than what Serena had been able to produce on this surface.

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:11 PM
Irony is that you can't see the obvious which is that is not you're not a fan. I've been reading your posts for over a year and I find it very hard to regard you as a fan. Of Venus yes, but Serena no.

Only a title at Rome, short term memory loss? What about Charleston? Don't even think of saying it's on Green Clay, because the Charleston winner has actually done better at RG in the past ten years than the Rome Champion. Once again you bias your arguments to make Serena look as lacking as possible.

I was talking about overall ability shown on clay when I said it was a toss up between Serena and Mary. The OP never said base your opinion on stats only.

Achievements wise Mary does have the edge, but that's all it is, an edge. Their achievements are of the same order.

Ok... it's obvious from an internet forum who I root for in my private time? I've never made any disparaging remarks about Serena or given her any unwarranted criticism. I've praised her many times and repeatedly said she's possibly shown the ability to be the greatest player of all time.
I'm not one of the fanatics who live in a dream world like a lot of fans here, although there is that contigent in every fan base.

That being said, green clay and red clay are not the same and some irrelevant correlation is not going to make that any different. And fine, let's not just base this on stats. What has Serena shown on clay.. that makes her look any better than Capriati or Pierce? All of her weapons are made less effective on the surface and her inconsistency can be taken advantage of. Serena is such a great player that she STILL has great results on clay, but she didn't have to face Graf, Seles or ASV. Even if we include all clay tournaments, I still think it's not even really close.
Her biggest obstacle was JCap who she has a 3-3 record against on clay and who I wouldnt even consider one of the greater claycourters to begin with.
Pierce meanwhile has had IMPRESSIVE wins against Graf, ASV, and Hingis who were much better than anything Serena has had to deal with with the exception of Henin post AO 2003.
Pierce was terribly inconsitent and has dealt with various injuries and issues, but when she was ON, she was better than anyone on this list on clay.

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:14 PM
lol.She's hardly dismissed from the discussion : she's leading the poll.
Pierce is simply better on this one (and even Capriati is).Most of her achievments on clay were before 2001(cause after 2000, her only full seasons at a competitive level were 2004 and 2005).Serena had a great opportunity this year (with henin out).She came with a good preparation on clay, only to lose to Srebotnik in the 3rd.So time goes by for Serena too, and I don't see her make a final at 30 like Pierce did (but who knows...).

Without even regarding achievements, the wins Pierce had on clay against great clay players (trashed Seles and Sanchez in Hilton H., losing only 3 games, beat Graf 6-2 6-2 at RG, defeated Hingis, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez several times etc...)are just more impressive than what Serena had been able to produce on this surface.

Thanks :) if i had been able to read this first, I wouldnt have had to make my own post.

Dodoboy.
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:20 PM
Winning % on clay
Serena 79%
Capriati 72%
Pierce 69%

That says a lot :cool:

AcesHigh
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:22 PM
Winning % on clay
Serena 79%
Capriati 72%
Pierce 69%

That says a lot :cool:

It shows you how inconsistent Pierce's career has been, marked by flashes of brilliance.

I must say that's a pretty good % Serena has there though.

shap_half
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:28 PM
This is definitely Mary's. Right now, I might even put Serena at #4. I think people's judgement is clouded by the fact that Serena played really well for a stretch and allow that to determine her placing on such a list. Strictly clay, Ana has made one more final than Serena at RG and has 1 more red clay title.

morbidangle
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:30 PM
lol.She's hardly dismissed from the discussion : she's leading the poll.
Pierce is simply better on this one (and even Capriati is).Most of her achievments on clay were before 2001(cause after 2000, her only full seasons at a competitive level were 2004 and 2005).Serena had a great opportunity this year (with henin out).She came with a good preparation on clay, only to lose to Srebotnik in the 3rd.So time goes by for Serena too, and I don't see her make a final at 30 like Pierce did (but who knows...).

Without even regarding achievements, the wins Pierce had on clay against great clay players (trashed Seles and Sanchez in Hilton H., losing only 3 games, beat Graf 6-2 6-2 at RG, defeated Hingis, Seles, Sanchez, Martinez several times etc...)are just more impressive than what Serena had been able to produce on this surface.
Not just that, Pierce actually has a winning head to head against Graf, Seles, Hingis,Martinez and Sanchez Vicario on clay. I mean Serena is more accomplished than Mary on everyother surface, but on clay Mary has clearly done better. 3 RG finals >>>> 1.

Il Primo!
Jun 7th, 2008, 11:33 PM
Actually, I think Ana's game is just perfect on clay.

Sund7101
Jun 8th, 2008, 01:08 AM
Capriati, Pierce, S. Williams, Myskina, Ivanovic

RenaSlam.
Jun 8th, 2008, 01:15 AM
Pierce > Serena > Capriati > Myskina > Ivanovic.