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only_one_maria
May 7th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Obviously Israel is in a difficult position and has a right to defend itself. But I think most people can see that it regularly oversteps the mark in its retaliation. Most people except Americans that is. Well, not all Americans, but pretty much the entire political class in America at least.

I think America is completely alone in this position, with a few allies who are determined to stick close to the US also reluctant to criticise Israel. But that's the thing. Any other countries that take an ultra pro-Israel stance are doing so merely because they are close to the US. Most British people were horrified by the Lebanon war in 2006 and it forced Tony Blair out of office sooner than he would have liked. Good. But I don't think Bush faced much pressure from his own country.

Do Americans just see the world very differently to the rest of us? And if so why? And please no-one suggest that the problem is that Europe is anti-semitic. As if people in Europe are more pro-muslim than pro-jew.

kwilliams
May 7th, 2008, 06:04 PM
I'm really uninformed on the subject but I think America was very involved in the establishment of Israel, though it was a British mandate that proposed the founding of Israel. Also I think many of Israel's original citizens came from America.

Also when you think about it Israel is a relatively strong power in the area and it's in America's interest to have an ally in the region.

Also Jewish Americans have much more power and are more involved in politics and judicial fields (both now and in the past) than Islamic Americans so the ruling elite's opinions are more in line with those of Jewish Americans.

samsung101
May 7th, 2008, 06:45 PM
Israel really oversteps the boundaries of good taste and good will when it
officially encourages citizens, teenagers, children, to strap bombs on, and
then, go into pizza parlors, weddings, funerals, schools, bus rides, streets,
private homes, and blow themselves up.

It also does this when they have national tv programs that demonize Arab children,
women, and men and spread lies about how they like to drink Jewish blood, and cut
off heads, and things like that.

Or promise to obliterate the Palestinian people, instead of trying to help create
a separate nation - as the UN originally tried to do decades ago.

Oh wait........that's not Israel.
That's the other side.

Israel is the size of a pea.
Surrounded by a hemisphere of anti-Israel nations who vocally call for the
elimination of Israel and the citizens.

The USA should be pro-Israel, as should the UK, it is a democracy. We should stand
by our friends, and Israel has proven itself to be our friend. It is a benefit to the
region, and for us.

Cam'ron Giles
May 7th, 2008, 06:45 PM
Why is America so pro-Israel?

Cause it's PERTY..:hearts:

starin
May 7th, 2008, 06:49 PM
well strategically Israel is the only strong Western Ally in the Middle East. And that's prolly why it garners so much support from Western countries (and not just the U.S.)

As for why the people of America support Israel so much...I'm not sure. It's a weird thing because anti-semitism still exists in the U.S. in a very small form but is still somewhat around in certain areas of the country. In the U.S. we hear about ultra conservative groups complaining about a left wing conspiracy that consists of Jews and gays.

I personally am very pro-Israel but I don't think that's true of the majority of Americans. I think the media here takes a somewhat pro-Israel slant on events that occur there. Also, Americans ideology meshes well with the notion that you have a right to defend your home w/ whatever force necessary...it's something that's ingrained in the general American ideology. And so that may be why Americans in general are supportive of Israel because as it plays out in the media here we often here Islamic extremists saying things like death to Israel, or that the only peace they will have is if Israel is eradicated. I mean that's pretty much all we hear so it's very hard not to side w/ Israel who, at least as it's played out in the media, is fighting only for the right to exist. And this comes at the heels of WWII which still lingers in the public consciousness.

Lastly, I remember watching some documentary or some news report and apparently there is a very strong Jewish/Pro Israel interest group here that is very well funded and lobbies very hard for the U.S. to support Israel. But I think that only affects U.S. policy on Israel in certain circumstancses where Israel might be in the wrong and the U.S. might want to side against them.


FYI someone was just convicted in the U.S. for spying for Israel and giving confidential security documents to Israeli spies. I was a little pissed about that...I mean U.S. has been Israel's strongest supporters, giving it billions of dollars for defense and they are spying on us and not just general spying but stealing security i.e. military documents. I'm sure there's a backstory but that's some bull shite right there.

*JR*
May 7th, 2008, 07:07 PM
As for why the people of America support Israel so much...I'm not sure. It's a weird thing because anti-semitism still exists in the U.S. in a very small form but is still somewhat around in certain areas of the country. In the U.S. we hear about ultra conservative groups complaining about a left wing conspiracy that consists of Jews and gays.
Who are more than offset politically by Christian fundamentalists who see Israel's existence as a Biblical requirement for the Second Coming.

ptkten
May 7th, 2008, 07:18 PM
Well first, Israel's one of the few democracies in the region so it's in our foreigh policy interest to keep them strong. They're probably the only country in the region that supports almost all of the United States' foreign policy objectives.

Additionaly, I think it would be irresponsible to overlook the fact that there is a substantial jewish population in the United States (40% of the World's population) especially in the Northeast who naturally have an interest in keeping Israel strong. New York City has the second largest Jewish population in the world (1.9 million in their metropolitan area) so it's really not all that surprising there's so much support. Most countries that have a substantial percentage of a certain religion or ethinic group would be supportive of another country that had similar demographics.

miffedmax
May 7th, 2008, 07:25 PM
Israel was the U.S.'s only friend during the Cold War in the Middle East (with the possible exception of Jordan). There's a large part of the American right that has had a hard time dealing with a multipolar world--witness the whole effort to paint the fictional N. Korea-Iran-Iraq axis as somehow presenting a threat to the U.S. on the same scale as the Soviet Union. However muddled their other thinking might be, there's also a sense that we "owe" Israel for standing beside us--they did fight at least one ***** war for us in 1973 and regularly supplied us with lots of info on Soviet-made weapons systems and tactics during the '60s and '70s.

It's also true that there is a very powerful Jewish lobby that influences the government and the media. I'm not saying its some kind of cabal that controls everything or anything--but it is a very large and well-organized group that is quick to write letters, phone calls, complain, whatever needs to be done to help shape coverage of stories out of the Middle East. There is now a growing network of similar Islamic organizations who espouse different views, but they are still smaller and less well-funded than their Jewish counterparts. As these organizations continue to grow, it will be interesting to see how much they influence the debate in this country.

There is also huge support for Israel among conservative Christians. They have a wide range of reasons for supporting Israel, ranging from it being a precondition for the "End Times" to a sense of obligation to Jesus's people to simply seeing Jews as the lesser of two evils (as opposed to Muslims).

The fact that many organizations ranging from the PLO to al Qaeda have chose terrorism (always a weapon of the weak) as a way to achieve their goals has turned off many Americans. Although the secular, socialist PLO and al Qaeda represent radically different agenda, for many Americans the image of the Middle East outside Israel is that of an AK-47 wielding, plane-blowing up maniac in a burnoose. Never mind that the overwhelming majority of Muslims reject terrorism or that the line between being a freedom fighter and a terrorist is very narrow--it's a very negative image and there is no doubt that the Palestinians are suffering in public perception because of the actions of a few radicals.

Also, America is a more overtly religious nation that most Western countries, and even many non-conservative Christians feel a sense of connection to Israel that simply isn't there for Syria, or Iraq, or Egypt.

Stamp Paid
May 7th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Aipac

Expat
May 7th, 2008, 07:43 PM
If Israel falls the next target of Muslim terrorists will be the Western world
so it is self preservation from America to keep Israel and Arabs fighting

don't know how Europe can be so naive to oppose Israel all the time when a demographic time bomb is ticking in their own states

saint2
May 7th, 2008, 07:51 PM
As if people in Europe are more pro-muslim than pro-jew.

Not Poland, rotfl...

Williamsser
May 7th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Because Israel believes in peace, while Arabs believe in suicide bombs and terrorism.

Stamp Paid
May 7th, 2008, 08:36 PM
Because Israel believes in peace, while Arabs believe in suicide bombs and terrorism.LOLz........

Pasta-Na
May 7th, 2008, 08:43 PM
many rich jews in U.S i heard.

Whitehead's Boy
May 7th, 2008, 08:48 PM
If Israel ceases to exist, Baby Jesus won't come back. America loves Baby Jesus, therefore America is pro-Israel.

Philbo
May 7th, 2008, 09:21 PM
Because Israel believes in peace, while Arabs believe in suicide bombs and terrorism.

What a grossly inaccurate and horrible over simplification.

Williamsser
May 7th, 2008, 09:42 PM
What a grossly inaccurate and horrible over simplification.

Really? Do you see Isrealis suicide bombing? I don't.

Philbo
May 7th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Really? Do you see Isrealis suicide bombing? I don't.

Would you describe arabs going into israeli territory and setting up small towns (settlements) a 'peace loving' act?

Some jews are just as militant and violence-addicted as some of the arabs are. Ask Yitzhak Rabin whether his fellow citizens are peace loving - he died from a bullet shot by one of his own who couldnt stand the idea of peace with the arabs.

The Israel/palestine argument does not begin and end with suicide bombers, and you know it.

Stamp Paid
May 7th, 2008, 10:45 PM
Would you describe arabs going into israeli territory and setting up small towns (settlements) a 'peace loving' act?

Some jews are just as militant and violence-addicted as some of the arabs are. Ask Yitzhak Rabin whether his fellow citizens are peace loving - he died from a bullet shot by one of his own who couldnt stand the idea of peace with the arabs.

The Israel/palestine argument does not begin and end with suicide bombers, and you know it.You sure?

Philbo
May 7th, 2008, 11:49 PM
You sure?

Yeah, pretty sure.. I dont think any reasonable person can truley believe the argument is as simple as one side is all good and innocent, and the other side is completely bad and at fault in the whole mess.

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 12:01 AM
Yeah, pretty sure.. I dont think any reasonable person can truley believe the argument is as simple as one side is all good and innocent, and the other side is completely bad and at fault in the whole mess.

ROFL. Then I guess there are plenty of irrational people cause I've met tons of the people on the net who believe the same thing.

LOLz........

Indeed.

Philbo
May 8th, 2008, 12:11 AM
ROFL. Then I guess there are plenty of irrational people cause I've met tons of the people on the net who believe the same thing.



Indeed.

Oh i agree there are plenty of irrational people about this topic around (waiting for Sam L to appear soon ;)) but I am giving obamab the benefit of the doubt...

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 12:31 AM
If Israel falls the next target of Muslim terrorists will be the Western world
so it is self preservation from America to keep Israel and Arabs fighting

don't know how Europe can be so naive to oppose Israel all the time when a demographic time bomb is ticking in their own states


What a bunch bullshit. This is only happening in your head and you clearly have no idea about geopolitics.

And oh. Muslims are coming to eat you.

Expat
May 8th, 2008, 01:04 AM
What a bunch bullshit. This is only happening in your head and you clearly have no idea about geopolitics.

And oh. Muslims are coming to eat you.
i see wahabbi islamic ideology as no different in its worldview than nazism
if nazi material is banned in europe i see no reason why islamic material should not be banned too
no wonder the term "dhimmitude" arose from lebanon seeing your pandering towards muslims

have you seen the birth rates of native europeans and muslims in europe
if you had you wouldn't be questioning my post
sharia is only like 30 years from being applied over all of europe
in spain the population of muslims has grown from 50000 to a million in a decade and thats really scary
i can't even recognize barcelona any more and its catalan language is being slowly replaced by arabic on the streets who refuse to integrate into mainland europe
and i have stayed in dubai for 3 years so i know first hand how arabs treat non arab muslims forget non muslims like me
thats why i feel funny when i hear americans crying about racism
want to see discrimination
try being a non muslim in a muslim country

Sam L
May 8th, 2008, 02:34 AM
Well America is also PRO-Australia and we have our share of faults and blunders, but no one ever questions that.

I feel sorry for Israel and Israelis because they're constantly held to a different standard.

The EU led by Germany is pro-Israel anyway.

Friends stick together. And there's nothing you, the thread starter, can do about it. If you don't like it maybe you should move to countries that aren't friends with the UK, US and Israel. I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms. :)

Beefy
May 8th, 2008, 02:41 AM
A lot of people from Israel that I've met aren't really that fond of the relationship with the US, and they've said that the relationship with Turkey is more important

Direwolf
May 8th, 2008, 02:46 AM
i dont know what question that is..
but Israel is suppose to be a very sacred site...
its where the 3 main religion came from

Direwolf
May 8th, 2008, 02:52 AM
i see wahabbi islamic ideology as no different in its worldview than nazism
if nazi material is banned in europe i see no reason why islamic material should not be banned too
no wonder the term "dhimmitude" arose from lebanon seeing your pandering towards muslims

have you seen the birth rates of native europeans and muslims in europe
if you had you wouldn't be questioning my post
sharia is only like 30 years from being applied over all of europe
in spain the population of muslims has grown from 50000 to a million in a decade and thats really scary
i can't even recognize barcelona any more and its catalan language is being slowly replaced by arabic on the streets who refuse to integrate into mainland europe
and i have stayed in dubai for 3 years so i know first hand how arabs treat non arab muslims forget non muslims like me
thats why i feel funny when i hear americans crying about racism
want to see discrimination
try being a non muslim in a muslim country


I so agree with you in your first post...
that If Israel Falls...
Vatican would be next...
and the Modern Muslims would take over...

not all muslims are the same...
like Arad muslims think so highly of themselves..
comparing to the pakistani muslims
who believes in the good ol brotherhood...

Scotso
May 8th, 2008, 03:40 AM
Friends stick together.

That's basically what it comes down to. The U.S. and Israel have a strong, brotherly relationship that goes back to Israel's founding. Often times they are the ONLY nation in the world that will stand with us on many issues. It's hard to find allies in this world, especially truly loyal ones.

Americans and Israelis share a lot of the same views and visions for the future. We work well together.

Scotso
May 8th, 2008, 03:41 AM
A lot of people from Israel that I've met aren't really that fond of the relationship with the US, and they've said that the relationship with Turkey is more important

.....

In what way?

I'm not saying that relations between Israel and Turkey are not important, but they certainly benefit more from their relationship with the United States.

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 05:11 AM
random bullshit

You're completely ignorant and have no understanding of Islam, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or US support for Israel. US supports Israel so they keep Muslims from destroying the "West"? :lol: Tell that to anyone who remotely understands geopolitics, and they will basically laugh at you.

Funny how you confuse Wahhabi Islam ideology with Muslims and Islam as a whole. But then again, that would even be a minor point to score considering all the crap you've already said.

Pasta-Na
May 8th, 2008, 05:29 AM
double standard :lol:

LeonHart
May 8th, 2008, 05:31 AM
US defends democratic states that are in hostile regions...I think that may be one of the regions. I'm for supplying Israel with weapons to defend itself but honestly I'd rather have a hands-off policy when it comes to defending Israel ><

BUBI
May 8th, 2008, 05:32 AM
You're completely ignorant and have no understanding of Islam, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or US support for Israel. US supports Israel so they keep Muslims from destroying the "West"? :lol: Tell that to anyone who remotely understands geopolitics, and they will basically laugh at you.

Funny how you confuse Wahhabi Islam ideology with Muslims and Islam as a whole. But then again, that would even be a minor point to score considering all the crap you've already said.

These days many americans believe that there is a muslim conspiracy to take over the world :lol:

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 06:01 AM
I don't buy that the US supports Israel because it's a democracy. Whether Arab countries were democracies or not probably wouldn't have changed much in the course of the conflict. The Arab public has always been antipathic to Israel ever since its creation. This is not "democracy" vs "dictatorship" like many want to believe. It's simply a fight over land, and the Arab public thinks that they have been unfairly treated by the British administration which allowed the immigration and settlement of "foreigners" on Arab land with the intent of making their own state. And second, the 1948 resolution is viewed as being unfair, and there's certainly a lot of reason to believe so. So basically, this is the root of the conflict. It's a land dispute and not dissimilar from other land disputes in the world.

Stamp Paid
May 8th, 2008, 06:02 AM
These days many americans believe that there is a muslim conspiracy to take over the world :lol:False. Although many Europeans....

Most non-Evangelical Americans have just been gooped into believing that Israel's best interests are one and the same with the US' best interests. And how peculiar, as an American I rarely hear of Israeli atrocities or of the US vetoes to UN resoultions admonishing Israel in the media....

LeonHart
May 8th, 2008, 06:16 AM
I don't buy that the US supports Israel because it's a democracy. Whether Arab countries were democracies or not probably wouldn't have changed much in the course of the conflict. The Arab public has always been antipathic to Israel ever since its creation. This is not "democracy" vs "dictatorship" like many want to believe. It's simply a fight over land, and the Arab public thinks that they have been unfairly treated by the British administration which allowed the immigration and settlement of "foreigners" on Arab land with the intent of making their own state. And second, the 1948 resolution is viewed as being unfair, and there's certainly a lot of reason to believe so. So basically, this is the root of the conflict. It's a land dispute and not dissimilar from other land disputes in the world.

In the Cold War the US were very protective of democratic states...and I feel it been passed down to now. Remember, our politicians now still have the cold war vividly in their minds. (Yes they're that old :lol:) That and there is a big Jewish population in the US. We're like the safe havens for the Jews lol. But we owe a lot to them too, like when Einstein came over and came up with the special relativity formula. You know...the formula that gave us the atomic bomb to end World War II.

Stamp Paid
May 8th, 2008, 06:24 AM
In the Cold War the US were very protective of democratic states...and I feel it been passed down to now. Remember, our politicians now still have the cold war vividly in their minds. (Yes they're that old :lol:) That and there is a big Jewish population in the US. We're like the safe havens for the Jews lol. But we owe a lot to them too, like when Einstein came over and came up with the special relativity formula. You know...the formula that gave us the atomic bomb to end World War II.Like all those ones we saved and helped in Africa....LOLz.

Africans did far more than Jews to help build this country...where is the love?? :sad:

BTW who taught you this revisionist history?? :awww: And special relativity gave us the ability to create an atomic weapon? You sound a fool. And unfortunately, you sound so American aux même temps.

A Magicman
May 8th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Well America is also PRO-Australia and we have our share of faults and blunders, but no one ever questions that.

I feel sorry for Israel and Israelis because they're constantly held to a different standard.

The EU led by Germany is pro-Israel anyway.

Friends stick together. And there's nothing you, the thread starter, can do about it. If you don't like it maybe you should move to countries that aren't friends with the UK, US and Israel. I'm sure they'll welcome you with open arms. :)


Yom huledet sameach, by the way. :)

LeonHart
May 8th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Like all those ones we saved and helped in Africa....LOLz.

Africans did far more than Jews to help build this country...where is the love?? :sad:

BTW who taught you this revisionist history?? :awww: And special relativity gave us the ability to create an atomic weapon? You sound a fool. And unfortunately, you sound so American aux mÍme temps.


...do you not know your physics? For Christ sakes do some research before you tell someone they sound like a fool.

hwanmig
May 8th, 2008, 06:41 AM
Because Jews are America's elite.

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 06:41 AM
...do you not know your physics? For Christ sakes do some research before you tell someone they sound like a fool.


Uhm, what's the link between special relativity and nuclear fission?

Stamp Paid
May 8th, 2008, 06:44 AM
...do you not know your physics? For Christ sakes do some research before you tell someone they sound like a fool.Yes, do you? E=MC^2 is useful in understanding how much energy is gonna be released in a fission reaction, but the formula itself is not really necessary to developing the weapon used by Americans on Nagasaki and Hiroshima....

and everything else you said (re: geopolitics, Cold War History, etc.) made you sound the fool. The Einstein mess was just the icing, especially since he had very little to do with the Manhattan Project anyway. American History 1101 much??

LeonHart
May 8th, 2008, 06:48 AM
Uhm, what's the link between special relativity and nuclear fission?

It was both the concept of special relativity and quantitative theory that created the atomic bomb :p

Einsteinís famous formula E=mc2 says that mass and energy can turn into each other. It was first published by H. Poincare. E stands for energy (http://www.conservapedia.com/Energy), m is mass (http://www.conservapedia.com/Mass), and c is the speed of light (http://www.conservapedia.com/Speed_of_light). So, if you increase the energy of a substance, for example by heating it, it gains a minute amount of mass. It was later realized that if you split an atom apart, as in a nuclear explosion, it loses a tiny amount of mass and you release a huge amount of energy (http://www.conservapedia.com/Energy).

LeonHart
May 8th, 2008, 06:53 AM
Yes, do you? E=MC^2 is useful in understanding how much energy is gonna be released in a fission reaction, but the formula itself is not really necessary to developing the weapon used by Americans on Nagasaki and Hiroshima....

and everything else you said (re: geopolitics, Cold War History, etc.) made you sound the fool. The Einstein mess was just the icing, especially since he had very little to do with the Manhattan Project anyway. American History 1101 much??

Does it make you feel better to put down people? :hug:

Whatever, I don't know much about the Israel thing, just giving some input on what I learned in AP US History, and the book I read for one of my reports "Exodus." Maybe next time you could help give some information on the subject rather than put people down. I don't know maybe it'll make you look less like an asshole :)

mariahdg
May 8th, 2008, 06:54 AM
ultimate goal: Money

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 07:02 AM
It was both the concept of special relativity and quantitative theory that created the atomic bomb :p

Einsteinís famous formula E=mc2 says that mass and energy can turn into each other. It was first published by H. Poincare. E stands for energy (http://www.conservapedia.com/Energy), m is mass (http://www.conservapedia.com/Mass), and c is the speed of light (http://www.conservapedia.com/Speed_of_light). So, if you increase the energy of a substance, for example by heating it, it gains a minute amount of mass. It was later realized that if you split an atom apart, as in a nuclear explosion, it loses a tiny amount of mass and you release a huge amount of energy (http://www.conservapedia.com/Energy).

Thanks for brushing up my high school physics.

Stamp Paid
May 8th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Does it make you feel better to put down people? :hug:

Whatever, I don't know much about the Israel thing, just giving some input on what I learned in AP US History, and the book I read for one of my reports "Exodus." Maybe next time you could help give some information on the subject rather than put people down. I don't know maybe it'll make you look less like an asshole :)Sorry! I just expect people to know what they are talking about before they speak. And I can't hide the condescension when I see ignorance. I just couldn't take, not at 3 AM. :(

And AP US History........:tape:

Philbo
May 8th, 2008, 09:15 AM
America supports democracies, only as long as that democracy toes the line the USA dictates to it and follows instructions and policies set out by big brother.

HAMAS (for all their faults) are a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. The USA refuses to even speak to them.

Hugo Chavez is another democratically elected leader whom the US have actively tried to have overthrown.

This simplistic view of the USA as helping only the good guys and being against the bad guys is so laughable, but perpetuated by the MSM to the point where people just accept the shit they see on the nightly news as the only side of the story.

justine schnyder
May 8th, 2008, 09:42 AM
America supports democracies, only as long as that democracy toes the line the USA dictates to it and follows instructions and policies set out by big brother.

HAMAS (for all their faults) are a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT. The USA refuses to even speak to them.


This simplistic view of the USA as helping only the good guys and being against the bad guys is so laughable, but perpetuated by the MSM to the point where people just accept the shit they see on the nightly news as the only side of the story.


Hamas might be a democrat elected goverment but it hurts everybody!
It hurts the jews in Israel and the muslims in Gaza.
It hurts the chances for peace and it hurts its own citizens (I think I've heard they stopped the water/electric supplies and said we did it..) and not to mention all the suiciding bombs we had here!

Beefy
May 8th, 2008, 10:11 AM
.....

In what way?

I'm not saying that relations between Israel and Turkey are not important, but they certainly benefit more from their relationship with the United States.

Because Turkey is the only Muslim state that recognises Israel, and because of their position on the map. If Turkey was like the other countries in the area, who knows what would or would've happened

Most of the Israeli's I know have said that by showing a strong relationship with the US makes things worse, because people hate Israel, hate the US, and when the two have such a strong relationship, it becomes worse

Philbo
May 8th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Hamas might be a democrat elected goverment but it hurts everybody!
It hurts the jews in Israel and the muslims in Gaza.
It hurts the chances for peace and it hurts its own citizens (I think I've heard they stopped the water/electric supplies and said we did it..) and not to mention all the suiciding bombs we had here!

I understand. But ask any of the Palestinians who VOTED for Hamas, and they would tell you the Israeli Govt is another democratically elected govt who 'hurts everybody'.

THe Israeli govt ignores THEIR OWN peace accords and continue to establish new settlements in the heart of Palestine territory - why is this act not considered aggressive and just as damaging to peace in the region?

I could write just as much criticism of the Arab side in the conflict as I have so far the Israeli's, but I feel the majority of people are so quick to see the arguments in this mess in absolute terms - one side is right, the other wrong.

BOTH sides have blood on their hands in this mess.

selesfan1
May 8th, 2008, 02:59 PM
Maybe they feel Israel is the foothold to spreading "democracy" in the region.

gotthebend
May 8th, 2008, 03:00 PM
I feel no one can figure this question out or convince others of his/her view in this generation...next century manybe.
Not even Asian countries are sans ideology/prejudice related to Middle East.

Williamsser
May 8th, 2008, 03:01 PM
You're completely ignorant and have no understanding of Islam, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or US support for Israel. US supports Israel so they keep Muslims from destroying the "West"? :lol: Tell that to anyone who remotely understands geopolitics, and they will basically laugh at you.

Funny how you confuse Wahhabi Islam ideology with Muslims and Islam as a whole. But then again, that would even be a minor point to score considering all the crap you've already said.

Would you live in an Arab country where gays are executed?

Didn't think so.

gotthebend
May 8th, 2008, 03:04 PM
I don't buy that the US supports Israel because it's a democracy. Whether Arab countries were democracies or not probably wouldn't have changed much in the course of the conflict. The Arab public has always been antipathic to Israel ever since its creation. This is not "democracy" vs "dictatorship" like many want to believe. It's simply a fight over land, and the Arab public thinks that they have been unfairly treated by the British administration which allowed the immigration and settlement of "foreigners" on Arab land with the intent of making their own state. And second, the 1948 resolution is viewed as being unfair, and there's certainly a lot of reason to believe so. So basically, this is the root of the conflict. It's a land dispute and not dissimilar from other land disputes in the world.
:worship:

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 05:21 PM
Would you live in an Arab country where gays are executed?

Didn't think so.

Let's see.

I'm gay and I lived 18 years in an Arabic country and gays are not executed there.

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 05:21 PM
I understand. But ask any of the Palestinians who VOTED for Hamas, and they would tell you the Israeli Govt is another democratically elected govt who 'hurts everybody'.

THe Israeli govt ignores THEIR OWN peace accords and continue to establish new settlements in the heart of Palestine territory - why is this act not considered aggressive and just as damaging to peace in the region?

I could write just as much criticism of the Arab side in the conflict as I have so far the Israeli's, but I feel the majority of people are so quick to see the arguments in this mess in absolute terms - one side is right, the other wrong.

BOTH sides have blood on their hands in this mess.

Great post.

Maybe they feel Israel is the foothold to spreading "democracy" in the region.

ROFL. Israel is probably one reason why Arab dictators have survived.

Expat
May 8th, 2008, 05:56 PM
You're completely ignorant and have no understanding of Islam, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or US support for Israel. US supports Israel so they keep Muslims from destroying the "West"? :lol: Tell that to anyone who remotely understands geopolitics, and they will basically laugh at you.

Funny how you confuse Wahhabi Islam ideology with Muslims and Islam as a whole. But then again, that would even be a minor point to score considering all the crap you've already said.
i know about the 1917 1948 1967 etc
and the fact that post the cold war people were questioning america's support for israel
and yes Osama is a creation of the CIA and Saudi Arabia i know that too
to fight jihad against the unholy atheist Soviet Union
however when you see the funding of mosques all over the world 95% of them are funded by saudi oil money which only teach wahabbi supremacist islam
blame me for not distinguishing between saudi islam and islam but thats the only islam thats being exported out of arabia
idont see shiism or sufism being even extolled in any of the mosques in the western world
what you said may be true in the years just after the cold war
but post 9/11 when the biggest enemy of america is radical islam
so it makes no sense for them to abandon their most loyal ally in the fight against radical islam
basically only israel has the gumption to go against the jihadis without thinking much of human rights which is needed to fight against radical terrorists

as for lebanon i know it has no laws against homosexuality
but pray tell me why are lebanese christians and all other arabic christians leaving the muslim states if life as a dhimmi is so good???

Apoleb
May 8th, 2008, 06:26 PM
as for lebanon i know it has no laws against homosexuality
but pray tell me why are lebanese christians and all other arabic christians leaving the muslim states if life as a dhimmi is so good???

I think it would a good idea if you stop making a fool of yourself. You pretty much have no idea what you're talking about. Christians are dhimmis in Lebanon? :lol:

But keep rambling for all I care.

BTW, are you like Lord Nelson Part II? It's like he's been reincarnated.

Sam L
May 9th, 2008, 04:36 AM
I could write just as much criticism of the Arab side in the conflict as I have so far the Israeli's,

You could, but you don't.

Beefy
May 9th, 2008, 04:38 AM
Not a lot do Sammy

fifiricci
May 9th, 2008, 07:57 AM
Also, Americans ideology meshes well with the notion that you have a right to defend your home w/ whatever force necessary...it's something that's ingrained in the general American ideology.


Yes and I think this is the root of the problem. A lot of Americans seem to think they invented democracy and sticking up for the downtrodden! Isn't it amazing then, that democracy was founded by the Greeks, thousands of years ago and thousands of years before the cowboys in the white hats arrived on the scene! I think it's this assumed "ownership" of democracy that a lot of us bad old European democracies find so irritating about the US.

In recent years Israel has way overstepped the mark and it's infantile for people to think that Isreal = inherently good and all the Arab states = inherently evil. Given 9/11 etc I'm sure though that that is exactly what your government in the US wants you to believe because it helps the Bush administration to propagandise you more easily about its disastrous foreign policy.

Joseph73
May 10th, 2008, 02:42 PM
Obviously Israel is in a difficult position and has a right to defend itself. But I think most people can see that it regularly oversteps the mark in its retaliation. Most people except Americans that is. Well, not all Americans, but pretty much the entire political class in America at least.

I think America is completely alone in this position, with a few allies who are determined to stick close to the US also reluctant to criticise Israel. But that's the thing. Any other countries that take an ultra pro-Israel stance are doing so merely because they are close to the US. Most British people were horrified by the Lebanon war in 2006 and it forced Tony Blair out of office sooner than he would have liked. Good. But I don't think Bush faced much pressure from his own country.

Do Americans just see the world very differently to the rest of us? And if so why? And please no-one suggest that the problem is that Europe is anti-semitic. As if people in Europe are more pro-muslim than pro-jew.



Obviously Americans are more pro-democracy and anti-dictatorships than Europeans. No wonder, as most European countries have been dictatorships now and then in the past. The USA has not.

@Sweet Cleopatra
May 10th, 2008, 04:07 PM
i don't no .... but arabs are not easy they will make america regret ...

Scotso
May 10th, 2008, 07:57 PM
I've known some pretty hot, easy Arabs. Mmmhmmm.

Monica_Rules
May 10th, 2008, 09:48 PM
I've always assumed its because a lot of the big money spinners in the US are jewish?

wta_zuperfann
May 10th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Here's the real reason why: Americans continually hear of Arab "terrorism" not realizing much of this violence is actually being committed by Israeli provocateurs disguised as Palestinians.


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/who-are-the-palestinian-terrorists/

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee261/FrankPilla/palestine_terrorist.jpg

Joseph73
May 10th, 2008, 11:03 PM
Here's the real reason why: Americans continually hear of Arab "terrorism" not realizing much of this violence is actually being committed by Israeli provocateurs disguised as Palestinians.


http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/who-are-the-palestinian-terrorists/

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee261/FrankPilla/palestine_terrorist.jpg

:lol::lol::lol:

Philbo
May 22nd, 2008, 10:52 AM
You could, but you don't.

Thats correct. Reason being, there are enough brainwashed idiots like yourself around to spout off about how victimised the poor, defenseless Israelites are. I see you as a product of someone who relies on the nightly news for a 'balanced' portrayal of the whole Israel/Palestine conflict.

fufuqifuqishahah
May 22nd, 2008, 03:51 PM
well strategically Israel is the only strong Western Ally in the Middle East. And that's prolly why it garners so much support from Western countries (and not just the U.S.)

As for why the people of America support Israel so much...I'm not sure. It's a weird thing because anti-semitism still exists in the U.S. in a very small form but is still somewhat around in certain areas of the country. In the U.S. we hear about ultra conservative groups complaining about a left wing conspiracy that consists of Jews and gays.



Yes there's anti-semitism, but it's not that much really. The anti-semitism sentiment is mostly by conspiracy theorist people. Anti-muslim sentiment seems to be greater.

But I think in general, the American public is not informed on the issue or does not care enough about the issue, so there really is no chance for public uproar about what is going on.... And for the ones that are not well informed enough but would like to take a stance, it's harder to take a stance when so many of your friends are Jewish...

Williamsser
May 22nd, 2008, 04:13 PM
Thats correct. Reason being, there are enough brainwashed idiots like yourself around to spout off about how victimised the poor, defenseless Israelites are. I see you as a product of someone who relies on the nightly news for a 'balanced' portrayal of the whole Israel/Palestine conflict.

Would you live in an Arab country where gays are executed?

Philbo
May 22nd, 2008, 04:34 PM
Would you live in an Arab country where gays are executed?
What does that have to do with the price of fish?

Where I would or wouldnt live is irrelevant to the discussion going on in this thread.

Williamsser
May 22nd, 2008, 06:00 PM
What does that have to do with the price of fish?

Where I would or wouldnt live is irrelevant to the discussion going on in this thread.

I didn't think so.

tranquill
Jun 5th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Here an Israeli commentator warns of pogroms coming in America in response to Jewish participation in liberal movements. A curious read.
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-anti-semitism-in-america.htm