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DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I have been very hesitant to jump on the bandwagon of "Serena intimidates Maria," "does Maria have an inferiority complex against Serena, etc etc." Maria just seems so mentally tough- too mentally tough to be intimidated by anyone.

However after listening to Michael Joyce (who I believe to be somewhat useless) say to Maria over and over again and again that she has to "believe" she can beat her, that's INDISPUTABLE confirmation that Serena has residence in Maria's head, so much so she's taken away her belief.

I can't think of ANY other player that would necessitate Joyce saying to Maria "you have to believe you can beat her." Maybe Venus on grass :shrug:

joão.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:54 PM
Clay + Serena = Mental choke

It was still a pretty decent match from Maria ON CLAY! :)

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:55 PM
The Dfs from Maria right after Serena banged a weak second serve in the corner for an outright winner showed how scared she was about putting in a weak serve....

hotandspicey
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Serena is in Maria's head, ova and ova and ova again! :lol: What a freaking match!!

doni1212
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Yeah, I agree. Once I heard Michael Joyce say all that, I knew it as well.

In The Zone
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Serena is definitely in Maria's head. Those double faults were absurd.

And those slides of Maria and those bunts .. oh please, no way she is winning RG.

Serenidad.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Serena's H2H with her Russian bit... "girls" :

v Sharapova : 5-2
v Myskina : 4-0
v Dementieva : 4-1
v Kuznetsova : 4-1
v Safina : 3-0
v Bovina : 2-0
v Likhovtseva : 4-1
v Zvonareva : 4-1
v Petrova : 6-1
v Kirilenko : 2-0
v Chakvetadze : 0-1

Does your player own a country?

doni1212
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:58 PM
Wow, those are great head to heads.

joão.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:58 PM
v Chakvetadze : 0-1 LOL?

Mikey B
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:58 PM
dont think she is.. that was an incredible final set from serena, maria had chances to win the match in two today... if serena was in maria's head, the score would have been 61/60 at best!

cant wait for the next match between them, if they're like the first and second set then we could have a real rivalry... at the moment its just one way traffic! after the 2nd set, i thought we were in for another AO semi final roller coaster!! but...

bellascarlett
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:58 PM
She is...:help: But Maria won a set again and fought well for two sets...:woohoo: That's a positive sign. :o

stkenyi
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Since Serena beat her like she stole something since wimbledon then I don't blame her for being scared. She knows Serena can come back anytime.

Serenidad.
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Not if Monroe is in her half. :haha:

Direwolf
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
0-1 to Chaky
who cant even win a match..

Morrissey
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Serena is an amazing champion you can just tell that Maria doesn't have the belief she can beat Serena.

Mikey B
Apr 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
wow maria's head to head looks pretty good now! lol! well, not wen you compare it chaky's!

Dave.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I think that Wimbledon 04 loss really hurt Serena, and then the YEC just made it worse. Serena has just been ruthless with Maria since 2004. There have been some close matches (like today), but Serena has always found her range in the end.

Destiny
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Anna C :fiery: She's coming for you next:p

Il Primo!
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Yeah, it's kind of true, I didn't believe it until today. But Maria was competitive today, considering the surface and the opponent, she derserves some props.

Tennisstar86
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:01 PM
doesnt she own most players?

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:01 PM
dont think she is.. if serena was in maria's head, the score would have been 61/60 at best!

Then why is Michael Joyce's mantra to Maria "You have to believe you can beat her..." or similar words? He's saying that, it seems, because he believes one of Maria's problems is she DOESN'T believe.

Hashim.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:01 PM
38-7:cool:

IceSkaTennisFan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:02 PM
She is...:help: But Maria won a set again and fought well for two sets...:woohoo: That's a positive sign. :o
It is and Maria has to remember that she had the first two sets on her raquet, so she is capable of beating Serena. It's just a matter of her mental strength. Of course, I don't think her serving woes are behind her, unfortunately. Had she not had so many double faults today, she would have probably been less flustered in the match. It's just so tough when you always have to worry about your own serve.

LudwigDvorak
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:02 PM
The matches are usually tight, at least. Serena's mental edge is what gives her that impressive H2H record. In particular, Likhovtseva and Kuznetsova gave/give her hell.

Good going Serena. :yeah:

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:03 PM
YEC 2004 seems like such a long time ago....:shrug:

:eek:

:help:

Serve_volley
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:03 PM
That loss to Anna..it must have been last year, right? Hmm, I don't remember. Either way if they ran into each other any time soon Serena would pa-hone Chalky. I expected Jankovic to be out of the top 10 first, but now it looks like Chakvetadze will be the new number eleven..

Morrissey
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Serena is the most talented and the best player on the WTA she has blasted Henin, Kuznetsova, Jankovic, and now Sharapova. It is clear and obvious when Serena is fit and motivated to play she is the best. The rankings don't tell the real story. The fact is Serena is a better player then Sharapova and her 5-2 record proves this fact.

LudwigDvorak
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:04 PM
That loss to Anna..it must have been last year, right? Hmm, I don't remember. Either way if they ran into each other any time soon Serena would pa-hone Chalky. I expected Jankovic to be out of the top 10 first, but now it looks like Chakvetadze will be the new number eleven..

Chakvetadze could not play at all until after Wimbledon and still be top ten. Only Hantuchova and perhaps Dementieva too risk leaving the top ten.

Mikey.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Serena lost to Anna in the YEC when she retired after losing the 1st set 4-6. To me that doesn't really count.

Destiny
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Maria is getting scared of Serena and her coach can see that

props to Maria for fighting :worship:

Mina Vagante
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:07 PM
This is true :)

IceSkaTennisFan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Serena lost to Anna in the YEC when she retired after losing the 1st set 4-6. To me that doesn't really count.
Me either. Which Williams sister beat Chaky during Fed Cup last year?

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Hmmmm...you could see it specially in the close and late situations. Serving for the 1st set: there came those df's. serving for the second set, she blows three straight sp's.

Good by Maria for winning a set again, though.

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Russians have won 5 of the last 16 majors, no country has won more in these last 4 years.
Serena was in all 5 Russian majors.
Remember, Serena went to Moscow last fall and got bounced by Lena. The true Czarina.

woosey
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
it was completely wrong of joyce to reveal that serena is in maria's head.

that's like tipping your hand. bad form on joyce's part.

i would not want my coach to say that in earshot of anyone.

Volcana
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
It may be, heavy stress on 'MAY', that the two previous losses, being so one-sided, really had an effect on Sharapova. And it may just be that some players do very well against certain other players. Venus always had trouble with Maggie Maleeva. Sometimes it just works out that way.

Tennisstar86
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Since Serena beat her like she stole something since wimbledon then I don't blame her for being scared. She knows Serena can come back anytime.

She did Steal something.... The Wimbledon Title....

I think that Wimbledon 04 loss really hurt Serena, and then the YEC just made it worse. Serena has just been ruthless with Maria since 2004. There have been some close matches (like today), but Serena has always found her range in the end.

I think thats it, its why Serena calls Maria overrated because since Maria beat Serena at Wimbledon people expected her to dominate like Serena did.....which hasnt happened.... Serena eats her weaties before she plays Maria thats for sure.... lol

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:08 PM
She is...:help: But Maria won a set again and fought well for two sets...:woohoo: That's a positive sign. :o

Agreed. She's making progress. I just think she'd be better off without Joyce and even distance her father a bit. I think she's is naturally a mentally strong girl, but the more you say "you have to believe..., etc, etc" the lack of believe becomes a "thing," so to speak- kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. I think she needs to figure it out on her own- without anyone. Then, she'll truly OWN her confidence. It'll come from within- not dependent on the outside influence.

GrafMariaPetraK
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:09 PM
Serena is the most talented and the best player on the WTA she has blasted Henin, Kuznetsova, Jankovic, and now Sharapova. It is clear and obvious when Serena is fit and motivated to play she is the best. The rankings don't tell the real story. The fact is Serena is a better player then Sharapova and her 5-2 record proves this fact.
How is a three set match getting blasted :rolleyes:

nhissan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:10 PM
well she won the Australian Open ya know?

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Russians have won 5 of the last 16 majors, no country has won more in these last 4 years.
Serena was in all 5 Russian majors.
Remember, Serena went to Moscow last fall and got bounced by Lena. The true Czarina.

:lol: Pathetic...WHOLE of Russia against Serena for majors won? Hmm..by that count: Serena alone has MORE majors than all of Russia combined! :eek: 8>5.

spiritedenergy
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Russians have won 5 of the last 16 majors, no country has won more in these last 4 years.
Serena was in all 5 Russian majors.
Remember, Serena went to Moscow last fall and got bounced by Lena. The true Czarina.

OMG are you a robot? :tape::help:

Demska
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Russians have won 5 of the last 16 majors, no country has won more in these last 4 years.
Serena was in all 5 Russian majors.
Remember, Serena went to Moscow last fall and got bounced by Lena. The true Czarina.

agreed.

Cp6uja
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Serena's H2H with her Russian bit... "girls" :

v Sharapova : 5-2
v Dementieva : 4-1

Does your player own a country?Maria beat her in Wimbledon FINAL and YEC FINAL and Lena beat her in tier-I FINAL. This three loses is realy paintfull for Serena and "worth" like 13 casual loses :devil:...

Serena have 30-9 H2H record in finals, but against Russians only 4-3.

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:13 PM
well she won the Australian Open ya know?

And Serena won Miami. How does that change the fact that Maria has not won a match against Serena in almost four years ?:confused:

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:13 PM
it was completely wrong of joyce to reveal that serena is in maria's head.

that's like tipping your hand. bad form on joyce's part.

i would not want my coach to say that in earshot of anyone.

AGREED!!! As a player, I would be PISSED!! It's ammunition for the enemy.

IceSkaTennisFan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Russians have won 5 of the last 16 majors, no country has won more in these last 4 years.
Serena was in all 5 Russian majors.
Remember, Serena went to Moscow last fall and got bounced by Lena. The true Czarina.
The only thing Lena is Czarina of is double faults. Maria gave her a good run for her money today, though.

Bruno71
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:14 PM
I couldn't say if Serena is in Maria's head, nor does Michael Joyce saying that necessarily mean it's true. Maria had one big problem today other than Serena herself, and that was serving from the near side. The wind looked like it was blowing from the left to right, so maybe that was it, I don't know. But Maria's serve in general was not consistent enough to win a match like this, where Serena was determined and focussed, as she always seems to be against Maria.

In The Zone
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:14 PM
AGREED!!! As a player, I would be PISSED!! It's ammunition for the enemy.

Serena will never be nervous against Maria now, for sure. She'll find out about this. Really, really bad by Joyce. He knows the mic exists, considering he used to hide it and pretend he didn't have it or turn it on.

Expat
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:15 PM
And Serena won Miami. How does that change the fact that Maria has not won a match against Serena in almost four years ?:confused:
till justine beat venus last year she hadnt beaten her in like 4 years too

they have played just 4 times in 4 years
keep that in mind
yes ree is in maria's head but masha is a very good player too

just the second best in terms of mental game

its not like the ridiculous head to heads that justine has against sveta or jelena

frenchie
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:16 PM
and she shouldn't have won at the YEC too

Badly injured Serena led 4-0 in the third!!

IceSkaTennisFan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:17 PM
They've only played now 4 times in the last 4 years. It's kinda hard to beat Serena when she's on like she was in all 3 matches they last played. Maria did well to get to a 3rd set with Serena today, although Maria did have her chances to take the first two sets. 2005 AO SF was so long ago.

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Russia started winning with Myskina. 16 majors ago, Serena has 2 of the last 16, Maria has 3, Sveta and Anastasia have one each.

Mina Vagante
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Yeap 4 straight vs Maria :drool:

Demska
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:18 PM
I'd rather have a Wimbledon and YEC title than a AO title and some other meaningless rounds.

LightWarrior
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:21 PM
Not to mention that Maria won that YEC match almost by default since she was leading 4/0 in the final set then injured her back. Maria's only actual real win was the 04' Wimbledon final, the only time Serena ever choked in a GS final (except when playing Venus in the beginning). I'm sure that huge disappointment gives her an extra drive/adrenalin everytime she plays Maria. Honestly I don't see Maria ever win against Serena in the future. Inferiority complex forever. I told you so !

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:21 PM
I'd rather have a Wimbledon and YEC title than a AO title and some other meaningless rounds.

Since YEC 2004- Maria has won two slams (USO 06 and AO 2008) so has Serena (AO 2005, AO 2007) :)

Kunal
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:22 PM
if anyone its rena

nhissan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Not to mention that Maria won that YEC match almost by default since she was leading 4/0 in the final set then injured her back. Maria's only actual real win was the 04' Wimbledon final, the only time Serena ever choked in a GS final (except when playing Venus in the beginning). I'm sure that huge disappointment gives her an extra drive/adrenalin everytime she plays Maria. Honestly I don't see Maria ever win against Serena in the future. Inferiority complex forever. I told you so !

it was her abs

UDACHi
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:22 PM
the 2004 yec was not even 3 and a half years ago..

Expat
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Not to mention that Maria won that YEC match almost by default since she was leading 4/0 in the final set then injured her back. Maria's only actual real win was the 04' Wimbledon final, the only time Serena ever choked in a GS final (except when playing Venus in the beginning). I'm sure that huge disappointment gives her an extra drive/adrenalin everytime she plays Maria. Honestly I don't see Maria ever win against Serena in the future. Inferiority complex forever. I told you so !

now thats a joke
maria is a very good player
give her some respect

Serve_volley
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Off topic, but I do hope Serena, Venus, and Daniela can establish themselves in the top 8 by the U.S. Open, the 6-10 positions are so wishy-washy. Dementieva is playing excellent, though, so it'd be tough to stop her.

As for Russians compared to Americans...Add Davenport and both Williams sister slams and see if they can match that. =P

I do like Sharapova and Kirilenko, though. But Kuznetsova has got to go..she makes so many finals and I understand she's frustrated she can't win them, but at least show a little happiness..

Slutati
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Serena is better than Maria.Always was and always will be.

topi11
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:24 PM
she's just better player, that's all

nhissan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:24 PM
And Serena won Miami. How does that change the fact that Maria has not won a match against Serena in almost four years ?:confused:

Maria can win tournaments without having to play Serena just like Justine/Venus

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Maria beat her in Wimbledon FINAL and YEC FINAL and Lena beat her in tier-I FINAL. This three loses is realy paintfull for Serena and "worth" like 13 casual loses :devil:...

Serena have 30-9 H2H record in finals, but against Russians only 4-3.

Still positive h2h, EVEN then. DANG, Serena is good. And she beat, no DESTOYED, Maria in the OZ open final..was painful for Maria too no?

topi11
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:25 PM
it's not about Pova's head it's all about Rena's talent

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:25 PM
If Serena wants to beat Russians, she should come to Moscow for Fed Cup.
In slams this year, it's Maria 1, the rest of the world zero

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Russia started winning with Myskina. 16 majors ago, Serena has 2 of the last 16, Maria has 3, Sveta and Anastasia have one each.

Hmmmm...and what happened to the other ones prior to that? Myskina et al were still in the draw no?

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:26 PM
Maria can win tournaments without having to play Serena just like Justine/Venus

OMG really ? Wow i thought to win a tournament you have to beat all the players in the draw (except yourself) and thats exactly what i stated in my first post. :rolleyes:

Demska
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:26 PM
Since YEC 2004- Maria has won two slams (USO 06 and AO 2008) so has Serena (AO 2005, AO 2007) :)

I meant each time they have met. Maria has won the more important matches

bandabou
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:26 PM
If Serena wants to beat Russians, she should come to Moscow for Fed Cup.

Ooohh..hmmm, Maria is on the team. What surface is it on? Clay? :scared:

Creideiki
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:27 PM
What a pointless stupid thread. Congratulations.

Dodoboy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Jelena owns China:angel:

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Prior to Myskina, only Russian men won majors.
Now it's the women's turn.

The Daviator
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Russia started winning with Myskina. 16 majors ago, Serena has 2 of the last 16, Maria has 3, Sveta and Anastasia have one each.

That has nothing to do with the thread, Serena owns the Russians when they play, that's the point.

Expat
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:28 PM
OMG really ? Wow i thought to win a tournament you have to beat all the players in the draw (except yourself) and thats exactly what i stated in my first post. :rolleyes:
its not maria fault that serena loses to jankovic

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:29 PM
I couldn't say if Serena is in Maria's head, nor does Michael Joyce saying that necessarily mean it's true.

Why else would he say it if he didn't believe it to be true? :shrug: Also, Maria didn't dispute it or even take offense at him saying it.

it's not about Pova's head it's all about Rena's talent

'Rena's talent cleared the room in Sharapova's head. ;)

Dodoboy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:29 PM
I hope their h2h after they retired will be something like 10-2 :drool:

LeRoy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:30 PM
God some people here are idiots :o. Maria has NOT BEATEN Serena in ALMOST four years does not mean that during this time Maria has not won titles.

40-0
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:30 PM
i wanna see this highlights anyone?

CanIGetAWhat
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:31 PM
When he repeatedly told Maria to BELIEVE she can beat Serena, he confirmed what I thought also. Serena intimidates Maria. Maria is scared of her.

LudwigDvorak
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Which Russians did she beat in finals? 04 Miami...'02 Leipzig, '04 Beijing, '07 Melbourne. There we go.

GS-TI-TII-TII v GS-TI-TI, WWW? :lol:

LightWarrior
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:32 PM
now thats a joke
maria is a very good player
give her some respect

What is a joke ? That she now kind of chokes everytime she plays Serena ?
And honestly I didn't like the inside joke with Joyce calling her a bitch or a dude or whatever. Talk about respect...

Destiny
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Since YEC 2004- Maria has won two slams (USO 06 and AO 2008) so has Serena (AO 2005, AO 2007) :)

:devil::worship:

Dodoboy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Monique, Kimika and LeTavia have already called Serena. She knows about Joyce :fiery:

spartanfan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:35 PM
Anyone remember this tournament?
Beijing, China.
September 20, 2004
Surface: HardcourtRoundOpponentW/LScoreRound of 32 Bye Round of 16 http://www.tenniscorner.net/images/h2h.gif (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=headtohead&player1id=WIS001&player2id=SAD004) Dinara Safina (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=players&playerid=SAD004) (RUS)W6-4 3-6 6-3Quarterfinals http://www.tenniscorner.net/images/h2h.gif (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=headtohead&player1id=WIS001&player2id=PEN001) Nadia Petrova (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=players&playerid=PEN001) (RUS)W6-2 4-1 retSemifinals http://www.tenniscorner.net/images/h2h.gif (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=headtohead&player1id=WIS001&player2id=ZVV001) Vera Zvonareva (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=players&playerid=ZVV001) (RUS)W6-2 6-3Final http://www.tenniscorner.net/images/h2h.gif (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=headtohead&player1id=WIS001&player2id=KUS003) Svetlana Kuznetsova (http://www.tenniscorner.net/index.php?corner=w&action=players&playerid=KUS003) (RUS)W4-6 7-5 6-4Serena the Russina Slayer!

Serve_volley
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:37 PM
RUSSIA v USA
Venue: Small Sport Arena "Luzhniki", Moscow (clay - indoors)

Russia
Svetlana Kuznetsova
Anna Chakvetadze
Dinara Safina
Elena Vesnina
Captain: Shamil Tarpischev

USA
Liezel Huber
Vania King
Ahsha Rolle
Madison Brengle
Captain: Zina Garrison


...wow. We lose. What the hell, Lindsay was gonna play and now she isn't. >_> And no, Maria isn't playing.

IceSkaTennisFan
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:38 PM
It's interesting how different players respond to Serena's aggressive game differently. If I were Mauresmo, I'd be even more scared of Serena 03 FO Serena catfest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE4fo9W9Yn4)

G1Player2
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Serena OWNS the Russians. End of story.

Olórin
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:42 PM
No doubt Maria is intimidated by Serena, but name me a player who isn't?
Maria fought really well in this match I thought though.

Volcana
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:44 PM
It's only four matches.

Bruno71
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:45 PM
Why else would he say it if he didn't believe it to be true? :shrug: Also, Maria didn't dispute it or even take offense at him saying it.

I'm not sure I would dispute it either, knowing the conversation was miked...would just want to let it go. I don't know, but I can see why that would give some credence to the theory.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:47 PM
I see what you're saying, but she did- albeit tacitly- take issue with is analysis of her ball toss.

Mina Vagante
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:48 PM
Serena owning Russia :)

Optima
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:48 PM
It is my personal opinion that Serena Williams is not in Maria Sharapova's head.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:50 PM
It is my personal opinion that Serena Williams is not in Maria Sharapova's head.

It would seem Michael Joyce doesn't share your personal opinion.

Bruno71
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:50 PM
I see what you're saying, but she did- albeit tacitly- take issue with is analysis of her ball toss.

btw, isn't post #94 in the wrong thread. :weirdo:

Mods merged a few threads. :lol:

Optima
Apr 18th, 2008, 08:55 PM
It would seem Michael Joyce doesn't share your personal opinion.

Michael Joyce can believe whatever he wants.

Serena is the better player at the moment. Because someone is a better player than the other doesn't mean they are in their head. Serena has 8 slams, why is everyone surprised she's beating Maria? If Maria had 5+ slams or maybe more then that, and she kept losing to Serena, then I'd say she's in her head, but she doesn't.

nhissan
Apr 18th, 2008, 09:02 PM
I see what you're saying, but she did- albeit tacitly- take issue with is analysis of her ball toss.

btw, isn't post #94 in the wrong thread.

nope someone redirect just me thread in this one :smash:

harloo
Apr 18th, 2008, 09:03 PM
dont think she is.. that was an incredible final set from serena, maria had chances to win the match in two today... if serena was in maria's head, the score would have been 61/60 at best!

cant wait for the next match between them, if they're like the first and second set then we could have a real rivalry... at the moment its just one way traffic! after the 2nd set, i thought we were in for another AO semi final roller coaster!! but...

I don't buy it either. The reasoning is because you don't play and fight like that if somebody is in your head. Maria played very well in this match, she nearly had Serena in two sets. The difference is the movement and sheer explosiveness. They can match each other but Serena does things a little better when she's on. I think Maria is a bit more consistent with her game, but Serena knows how to turn a match around in a heartbeat. Serena's serves and returns puts a lot of pressure on her opponents regardless of who she plays. And Maria always has serving problems during matches, it's not because of Serena only.

heartBREAKeRS
Apr 18th, 2008, 09:09 PM
GO Serena....! I bet on Serena, now I got my money:=)

Knew she would win no matter what, always a champion:=)

calico_101
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:39 PM
Serena owns Maria because Maria moves like a turkey with one leg.

Can't see that changing dramatically over the course of her career

Even though Serena is fat she has that explosive quality to her movement. Great footspeed.

morningglory
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:41 PM
I don't buy it either. The reasoning is because you don't play and fight like that if somebody is in your head. Maria played very well in this match, she nearly had Serena in two sets. The difference is the movement and sheer explosiveness. They can match each other but Serena does things a little better when she's on. I think Maria is a bit more consistent with her game, but Serena knows how to turn a match around in a heartbeat. Serena's serves and returns puts a lot of pressure on her opponents regardless of who she plays. And Maria always has serving problems during matches, it's not because of Serena only.

Definitely. That's what makes her so good.
But Maria's made good progress though, I would say. It's not at all like the other two drubbings she got.

Denise4925
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Yep, and Venus is designing the interior. :p ;)

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Maria struggled thru 3 setters last week. The AMG match was 76 in the 3rd. The Alona match was long.
The final with Domi was a struggle. Maria on green clay is obviously not the same player as was in Melbourne.
She knew this draw and she knew she had played a lot last week. 3 hour matches.
That she played here showed me she is serious about learning to play her best on clay.
And though she didn't serve out the 1st set at 54 and the 2nd at 52, this was much better than last week. Anyone who saw those AI matches could see a huge forward move.
I don't know what that means for red clay, but Maria is very serious about becoming the best player she can be on every serface. And she turns 21 tomorrow.

jacobruiz
Apr 18th, 2008, 10:53 PM
Maria has definately improved on clay and just won her first title on it. But it's still her worst surface.

pov
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:01 PM
I have been very hesitant to jump on the bandwagon of "Serena intimidates Maria," "does Maria have an inferiority complex against Serena, etc etc." Maria just seems so mentally tough- too mentally tough to be intimidated by anyone.

However after listening to Michael Joyce (who I believe to be somewhat useless) say to Maria over and over again and again that she has to "believe" she can beat her, that's INDISPUTABLE confirmation that Serena has residence in Maria's head, so much so she's taken away her belief.

I can't think of ANY other player that would necessitate Joyce saying to Maria "you have to believe you can beat her." Maybe Venus on grass :shrug:

I don't know if he's useless but he needs to work on his approach to tennis pysch. Telling a player that will often work against them unless they are already feeling confident that they will win. It's very different to saying something like "I like a lot of what you've been doing. It's clear that you can win this! "

goldenlox
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:02 PM
It's her worst surface by far, but the level she played those first 2 sets probably puts her with Sveta, Ana and Jelena on clay.
She's getting there. Now I think she's going to play both Berlin and Rome.
She plays until she's exhausted. To reach Justine's level, there's still a long way to go.

The Daviator
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:05 PM
It's her worst surface by far, but the level she played those first 2 sets probably puts her with Sveta, Ana and Jelena on clay.
She's getting there. Now I think she's going to play both Berlin and Rome.
She plays until she's exhausted. To reach Justine's level, there's still a long way to go.

But still below Serena :p

dybbuk
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:06 PM
It's her worst surface by far, but the level she played those first 2 sets probably puts her with Sveta, Ana and Jelena on clay.
She's getting there. Now I think she's going to play both Berlin and Rome.
She plays until she's exhausted. To reach Justine's level, there's still a long way to go.

Do you sleep? At all? You always seem to magically appear in any thread to do with a Russian player. :unsure:

Denise4925
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:08 PM
I couldn't say if Serena is in Maria's head, nor does Michael Joyce saying that necessarily mean it's true. Maria had one big problem today other than Serena herself, and that was serving from the near side. The wind looked like it was blowing from the left to right, so maybe that was it, I don't know. But Maria's serve in general was not consistent enough to win a match like this, where Serena was determined and focussed, as she always seems to be against Maria.

The wind didn't stop for Serena when she was serving. :shrug: They both served from the same sides.

Alex72
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:09 PM
Serena is an amazing champion you can just tell that Maria doesn't have the belief she can beat Serena.

I really think you are right. There is a belief problem Maria must address, and the OP was spot on. It is a shame isn`t it that Serena wasn`t there to meet her at the AO, wasn`t it? ;) As it stands now, Pova is the only one this year to hold a slam trophy in her hands. The real discussion will unfold as we go through the other three...:)

Expat
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:13 PM
It's her worst surface by far, but the level she played those first 2 sets probably puts her with Sveta, Ana and Jelena on clay.
She's getting there. Now I think she's going to play both Berlin and Rome.
She plays until she's exhausted. To reach Justine's level, there's still a long way to go.

have given up on sveta i see if maria level is already up to her level
ana serena matchup on clay i am not sure
but jelena will start as favorite on clay against serena

Denise4925
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:19 PM
Serena owns Maria because Maria moves like a turkey with one leg.

Can't see that changing dramatically over the course of her career

Even though Serena is fat she has that explosive quality to her movement. Great footspeed.

Serena is NOT fat. :rolleyes:

Andy.
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:22 PM
Some of you need to take lessons at being good winners. Being happy is great but gloating, being arrogent and making agressive trashy and put down comments is hardly neccesary.

Dasha_
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Since Serena beat her like she stole something since wimbledon then I don't blame her for being scared.


:lol:


I just love what Serena sad about that 6-1 set - "In the third set I started to play the Serena game," :worship:

Russianboy
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:36 PM
But still below Serena :p

no, they are the same level. maria could have won 6-4 6-2 easily, but it was a hard 3 set match. they are almost equal on clay

Russianboy
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:37 PM
Some of you need to take lessons at being good winners. Being happy is great but gloating, being arrogent and making agressive trashy and put down comments is hardly neccesary.

some are just like like their fav player and will never change..
hard but true

Slutati
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:40 PM
Some of you need to take lessons at being good winners. Being happy is great but gloating, being arrogent and making agressive trashy and put down comments is hardly neccesary.
Oh please, tell that to "this is my home" Sharapova:rolleyes:

The Daviator
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:41 PM
no, they are the same level. maria could have won 6-4 6-2 easily, but it was a hard 3 set match. they are almost equal on clay

Yeah, and Lindsay could have won the Wimbledon semis 6-2 6-2, didn't happen.

Serena has 2 red clay titles, and just beat Maria on green clay, she's better.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Michael Joyce can believe whatever he wants.



Of course he can. And I would imagine he's in a closer position to evaluate her mental state than any of us. ;)

The fact is, yes, Serena's a great player- especially recently against Sha'po'. That's WHY she's in her head. That's how she got there. :lol: No one here is disputing the CAUSE, ie, "Serena is a great player..." It's just that the RESULT, ie, "Serena's in her head.." is so surprising against someone as mentally tough as Sha'po'.

You and some others are confusing the CAUSE with the RESULT.

Russianboy
Apr 18th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Yeah, and Lindsay could have won the Wimbledon semis 6-2 6-2, didn't happen.

Serena has 2 red clay titles, and just beat Maria on green clay, she's better.

serena is playing like 6 years longer?

still the match showed in wimbledeon that lindsay was not worse than maria.
maria won, but still, lindsay was playing her level, just like maria did today. ;)

tennistuff
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:19 AM
In a word . YES. For a few years the "Experts" where trying to say if you are not Russian you can not win in todays tennis. I guess they are not "Experts" Huh.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sam L
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Maria hasn't beaten her since that 2004 YEC final - which was a joke of a match considering Serena could barely move.

I think Serena is especially motivated to beat Maria because the latter intends to rule tennis like Serena had. But it's still too early and Serena will do whatever is in her power to stop the "upstart".

This happens with every generation and passing of the batons. From when Lenglen beat Wills to when Graf beat Seles.

tennistuff
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:28 AM
Maria hasn't beaten her since that 2004 YEC final - which was a joke of a match considering Serena could barely move.

I think Serena is especially motivated to beat Maria because the latter intends to rule tennis like Serena had. But it's still too early and Serena will do whatever is in her power to stop the "upstart".

This happens with every generation and passing of the batons. From when Lenglen beat Wills to when Graf beat Seles.

Yes they keep saying Serena is done. And she keeps showing them she is not.

Slutati
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:28 AM
Of course she owns her.But then again Serena owns pretty much everyone:shrug:

The Daviator
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:29 AM
All these threads :rolls:

Serena is not going to win every match with Maria, but she'll always lead the H2H IMO, she knows what to do against Maria, but like I say, Ma-Sha's good enough to beat Serena if she's off.

Dawn Marie
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:31 AM
Of course she owns her.But then again Serena owns pretty much everyone:shrug:
what they said.:-)

Ben.
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:32 AM
All these threads :rolls:

Serena is not going to win every match with Maria, but she'll always lead the H2H IMO, she knows what to do against Maria, but like I say, Ma-Sha's good enough to beat Serena if she's off.

Pretty much on the spot there :)
And yes why all these threads :lol: but thats WTAWorld for you though.

goldenlox
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:33 AM
I don't know if you can judge a green clay match as Maria's best surface, or proof that she can't beat someone.
Maria beat Serena 2 of 3 times when Maria was 17.
They still have not met since then, with Maria able to serve, except now on green clay.

I would consider today a big move forward on clay for Maria, who supposedly can't play on clay.

tennistuff
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:36 AM
what they said.:-)

But the issue is if Serena loses a match or two the haters start writing her obit. "she is done, it's over, she does not want to play anymore etc." But then when she put her mind to it. She can beat anyone out there. But you watch memories are short.;)

The Daviator
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:36 AM
I love how people go on and on about Maria not being able to serve in 2007, discrediting Serena's wins.

Yet they'll bandy about YEC 2004 as if that was a legit win for Maria :rolleyes:

tennnisfannn
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:37 AM
I don't know if you can judge a green clay match as Maria's best surface, or proof that she can't beat someone.
Maria beat Serena 2 of 3 times when Maria was 17.
They still have not met since then, with Maria able to serve, except now on green clay.

I would consider today a big move forward on clay for Maria, who supposedly can't play on clay.
Wimby 04 is the only one that really counts though. At the YEC Serena waas serving at 61 kms per hour compare to her average which is usually in the 200 or 180(in miles). That is not a subjective assessment but factual.

goldenlox
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:39 AM
The 2005 AO was a close match. Each match has it's own backstory.
I hope they play a lot more. Maria is going to be around for a while.

Tennisstar86
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:41 AM
except Maria could serve in 07 when They met in Miami and the Austrailian open. The problem is Serena's pressure on return is what causes maria to double fault... Regardless of how "well" marias shoulder feels she'll double fault against Serena cause shes trying to up the juice on the second serve so serena doesnt ram it down her throat....

vettipooh
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:44 AM
I don't know if you can judge a green clay match as Maria's best surface, or proof that she can't beat someone.
Maria beat Serena 2 of 3 times when Maria was 17.
They still have not met since then, with Maria able to serve, except now on green clay.

I would consider today a big move forward on clay for Maria, who supposedly can't play on clay.


You are so dense. :lol: She'll be 21 tomorrow. She supposedly improved since 17 and she still can't beat Serena again.......yet.

Bounty Hunter
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:45 AM
I don't recall Serena ever purchasing Maria, so I don't think she owns her. :unsure:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:52 AM
'own' is not the word I would use.

Right now, there are a certain variety of ways that Sharapova plays. There are a certain vareity of ways Serena plays. And it happens that one of the combinations of Serena's play and Sharapova's play is very one sided in favor of Serena. It's like in chess, an opponent may beat you all the time with, say, the Ruy Lopez (http://chess.about.com/od/improveyouropenings/ss/bloc6000.htm). But if you manage to disrupt it, you split the games 50-50. So every match where your opponent plays white becomes a matter of forcing him out of that opening.


Serena gets Sharapova into matches where Sharapova is trying to make her shots better by hitting harder. That's just playing to Serena's strength. Of course, hitting accurate shot hard IS Sharapova's strength, but this isn't a situation where that tactic favors her.


Given time, however, Sharapova will find out how to use her skills to beat what Serena's doing to her. Then it'll be Serena's turn to adapt.

tennistuff
Apr 19th, 2008, 01:57 AM
'own' is not the word I would use.

Right now, there are a certain variety of ways that Sharapova plays. There are a certain vareity of ways Serena plays. And it happens that one of the combinations of Serena's play and Sharapova's play is very one sided in favor of Serena. It's like in chess, an opponent may beat you all the time with, say, the Ruy Lopez (http://chess.about.com/od/improveyouropenings/ss/bloc6000.htm). But if you manage to disrupt it, you split the games 50-50. So every match where your opponent plays white becomes a matter of forcing him out of that opening.


Serena gets Sharapova into matches where Sharapova is trying to make her shots better by hitting harder. That's just playing to Serena's strength. Of course, hitting accurate shot hard IS Sharapova's strength, but this isn't a situation where that tactic favors her.


Given time, however, Sharapova will find out how to use her skills to beat what Serena's doing to her. Then it'll be Serena's turn to adapt.

If I play someone and they have not beat me in 4 years. I think that would qualify as owning. In a sports content. Of course.

tennistuff
Apr 19th, 2008, 03:02 AM
You are so dense. :lol: She'll be 21 tomorrow. She supposedly improved since 17 and she still can't beat Serena again.......yet.

True:bounce:

Volcana
Apr 19th, 2008, 03:03 AM
If I play someone and they have not beat me in 4 years. I think that would qualify as owning. In a sports content. Of course.If I've only lost four matches in a row, I'm not so concerned. Lindsay Davenport beat Venus Williams five straight times between Stanford 1998 and Stanford 1999, and eight of the first nine times they played. What's the current head-to-head? 14-13. Davenport never owned Venus. Venus just needed time to figure out how to beat her.

Then Venus had a period when she won six straight times against Davenport, and nine of ten. Then Davenport won the next four in a row.


'owned' is a nice word for trash talk, but it doesn't mean much without a pretty big sample size.

carling
Apr 19th, 2008, 03:04 AM
At the moment, yes, Serena owns Maria.

GLips
Apr 19th, 2008, 04:56 AM
Serena gets Sharapova into matches where Sharapova is trying to make her shots better by hitting harder. That's just playing to Serena's strength. Of course, hitting accurate shot hard IS Sharapova's strength, but this isn't a situation where that tactic favors her.


This is exactly what happened today and Maria just needs to play her own game... you would think that she would try SOMETHING new after being embarassed the two times before today. But there will be hope for her against Serena soon... hopefully

bandabou
Apr 19th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Just a bad match-up for Maria. Everything she does well, Serena does better.

she serves pretty good? Serena is the serving queen.
Maria hits hard? Serena can AND handle the pace AND hit it harder AND track it down better.
Maria likes rhythm? Serena loves it even better.

Own is a big word. But this isn't surprising...Maria is from the same school/mold of Lindsay Davenport and we all know how that h2h turned out.

Pureracket
Apr 19th, 2008, 08:42 AM
I notice is most during the serves. Sharapova came out the first two games of the match firing from all cylinders. AFter Serena settled into the match, there was a marked difference from MS.

austennis
Apr 19th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Maria never feared Serena in the beginning and dont believe she does now.. she might fear her returns of serve but anymore i refuse to believe

starin
Apr 20th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Which Russians did she beat in finals? 04 Miami...'02 Leipzig, '04 Beijing, '07 Melbourne. There we go.

GS-TI-TII-TII v GS-TI-TI, WWW? :lol:

umm... i guess this thread got merged into another..

Serena continues reign as Czarina of Russia :angel:

39-8


GS-TI-TI-TII-TII v. GS-TI-TI

5-3 in finals.

supergrunt
Apr 20th, 2008, 08:20 PM
Serena's just the better player.

Russianboy
Apr 20th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Serena's just the better player.

coming from a williams fan :tape:

goldenlox
Apr 20th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Since a Russian won the only major this year, she's the Czarina.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 20th, 2008, 08:37 PM
Serena don't live in Maria's head, Henin too beat Maria, 4 times in a row, and what happened in USOpen final , Maria beat her in straight sets, Maria learn from her defeats against Serena, I'm sure, if she won the first set during Charleston, she could won the match in two.
All your thread are so pathetic, it's seems you try to reassure yourself:rolleyes:

supergrunt
Apr 20th, 2008, 09:16 PM
coming from a williams fan :tape:

Well she beat her the last four times- that's not really subjective. :shrug:

Volcana
Apr 20th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Maria never feared Serena in the beginning and dont believe she does now.. she might fear her returns of serve but anymore i refuse to believe"You have to BELIEVE you can beat her." Sound familiar?


Sharapova probably didn't think past the next point at seventeen. Youth conveys that level of single-mindedness on some. Venus was like that too. Just aim for the lines and hammer the living shit out of the ball. Age brings doubt. (Unless you're Chris Evert.) At age 21, not one, not two, but three different players have treated Sharapova macadam facing a roadgrader.

And then there's the 2005 OZ match, where it was famously said, 'Maria is playing better, but somehow Serena is winning'. Think about that match being in Sharapova's memory bank when she ISN'T playing better. Or the fact that Serena tried to find a way to win the 2004 YEC match when she couldn't extend her arm over her head.


All this sounds like I'm buying the 'in her head' argument, which I really don't. But I have to admit there are indications.


I think the main thing is simply Serena grew up with, and still practices against, a faster version of Maria Sharapova. Serena doesn't even think 'If I can beat Venus, I can beat Maria'. She knows it. The stuff she thinks about when playing Sharapova are built on that axiom. She probably would have preferred not to lose Wmbledon in 2004 to learn to take Sharapova seriously, but the price of success can indeed be high.

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Apr 20th, 2008, 10:16 PM
I personally believe that Serena is in everybody's head, not just Maria's. Every player knows that if Serena come out firing or digs down deep at any point, its all over. Arthur Ashe once commented on the "fear factor" that the best top players bring into a match, and Serena definitely has that working in her favor.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 20th, 2008, 10:33 PM
I'm really sure Maria isn't scared about Serena, she is just 21 years old and look at all she win in her career already, 3 GSlams, 1YEC, she has a strong mental, when she come in a court, it's to win, she doesn't think about the player on the other side, but she just focus on her own game and what she need to do and if she does very well, she can win.

Russianboy
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:48 AM
Well she beat her the last four times- that's not really subjective. :shrug:

that's why angelika roesch is a much better player than dementieva cuz she is leading the H2h 3-1 :lol:

homogenius
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:52 AM
I personally believe that Serena is in everybody's head, not just Maria's. Every player knows that if Serena come out firing or digs down deep at any point, its all over. Arthur Ashe once commented on the "fear factor" that the best top players bring into a match, and Serena definitely has that working in her favor.

She lost it for some years but it seems to be back slowly.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:54 AM
that's why angelika roesch is a much better player than dementieva cuz she is leading the H2h 3-1 :lol:

Yeah the same thing about Venus Williams, she is not a better player than Justine Henin, and she leads 7/2 in H2H against Henin.

debby
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:06 PM
that's why angelika roesch is a much better player than dementieva cuz she is leading the H2h 3-1 :lol:

I didn't know Roesch won eight GS neither Dementieva had a great service with 3 Slams :tape:

Dorcas Monjimbo
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:07 PM
The truth is Maria knows Serena is better than her and she gets shaky and scared each time she has to confront her on the court. Her service and double errors are evidence.

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:10 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.

homogenius
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:13 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.



She didn't feel it enough in the quarters of Charleston.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:16 PM
Her service and double errors are evidence.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:I'm sorry but last meeting, Maria served well against Serena, she could win the first set, beside she dominated Serena in the 1set, in the second too. One more time, I'm sure if she won the first set, she could win the match in two, but it's beauty of tennis, you have to take your chances and if you don't you lose.
It's so pathetic to say, she scared about Serena because she made double faults:lol::lol:

Dan23
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:36 PM
She didn't feel it enough in the quarters of Charleston.Well thought out reply :o

People are getting carried away a little with this stuff. Things can change so quickly.


... but it's beauty of tennis, you have to take your chances and if you don't you lose..Correct....but without theories like those in this there'd be no discussion ;).

Mikey.
Apr 21st, 2008, 12:58 PM
I think Serena is in Maria's head to some extent. But the fact that she had chances to take the 1st set and that she won the 2nd set will help her a lot, considering she lost in their last 2 meetings 1 & 2 and 1 & 1. Hopefully it gives her a big confidence boost and hopefully she will learn from her mistakes this time.

Vlover
Apr 21st, 2008, 03:37 PM
Serena is definitely playing on her psyche because after the surprise Wimbledon win Maria was made to believe that she has surpassed the Sisters especially after she defeated a handicapped Serena again at the YEC she thought this was true. Now that reality has set in and she realized its not as easy as they were telling her she has her doubts just like all the other players. The fact is your chances against Serena depends on how well or badly she is playing on that day.

Russianboy
Apr 21st, 2008, 04:17 PM
it's always about how someone is playing. not just serena. that's just arrogant to say this. if maria plays like at the aussie open and serena like she did on the quaterfinal day, maria would have won.
but actually it just depends on how u are playing and not ur opponent. and it's equal who ur opponent is.

rjd1111
Apr 21st, 2008, 06:11 PM
It is and Maria has to remember that she had the first two sets on her raquet, so she is capable of beating Serena. It's just a matter of her mental strength. Of course, I don't think her serving woes are behind her, unfortunately. Had she not had so many double faults today, she would have probably been less flustered in the match. It's just so tough when you always have to worry about your own serve.

Her serving problems were caused by Serena. Serena's
return of serve is the best in the business. Players
are afraid to hit her a second serve. So they have to
put everything they can on it so it doesn't come back
at them harder than they hit. This leads to mistakes.

This also puts pressure on their first serves. They
have do everthing they can to get it right so they
don't have to hit a second serve.

Added to this is the fact that sometimes Serena can
smack a first serve back at em too.

Hence, serve % goes down and double faults go up.

" Williams then broke Zvonareva a second time, taking advantage of two consecutive double-faults.
"She always puts pressure on you, so you always have to go for a bigger serve and eventually your serve percentage goes down," said Zvonareva, who ended with eight double-faults. "I accepted I would have some double-faults today and I knew it was going to happen when I was coming into the match. It's just too bad to have two of them in a row."

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:38 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.

:lol: Funny poster..has a knack of playing with numbers, just to make her look right.

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:40 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:I'm sorry but last meeting, Maria served well against Serena, she could win the first set, beside she dominated Serena in the 1set, in the second too. One more time, I'm sure if she won the first set, she could win the match in two, but it's beauty of tennis, you have to take your chances and if you don't you lose.
It's so pathetic to say, she scared about Serena because she made double faults:lol::lol:

Coulda, shoulda, woulda..she had it on her racket you say? Then why didn't she win the 1st set then?

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:51 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.

Sure, she FEELS like she can win any tournament, but how strong that feeling is must have something to do with whether Serena's in the tournament or not...

"You gotta believe that you're gonna beat this... girl." = This girl has you psyched out.

"This girl has you psyched out." = This girl's IN YOUR HEAD! :shrug:

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:55 PM
Serena was in every major Maria has won.
That doesn't bother her. She's there to win the major, and she has the last one and 2 of the last 6.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:57 PM
Serena was in every major Maria has won.
That doesn't bother her. She's there to win the major, and she has the last one and 2 of the last 6.

So we're to believe YOU and not Michael Joyce...? :haha:


"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" :haha:

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 08:59 PM
She won the AO. Serena played the last 4 majors and didn't get past the quarters in any of them.

bandabou
Apr 21st, 2008, 09:02 PM
Serena was in every major Maria has won.
That doesn't bother her. She's there to win the major, and she has the last one and 2 of the last 6.

2 out of 6! Wow, she sure's dominating!

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 21st, 2008, 09:06 PM
She won the AO. Serena played the last 4 majors and didn't get past the quarters in any of them.

dodging the issue are we...? :lol:

Did Maria play SERENA in any of those majors?

See, I can EASILY admit that Juju was in Serena's head, but you- even after hearing Michael Joyce all but say it- still dwell in denial. :haha:

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 09:14 PM
Maria didn't play Serena at the AO.
That isn't Maria's fault, and it isn't weakness to win a major without losing a set.

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 21st, 2008, 09:21 PM
:haha:

part of me thinks that this thread will turn into (Indian Wells and the W.S. Pt. 2 :lol::scared: )

rjd1111
Apr 21st, 2008, 10:40 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.

Beatdown by Jankovic???

Janko:

"Oh, my God," she said in that throaty, theatrical voice. "Just hit a winner, but away from me. I don't want to see that ball near my body or anywhere else.
"Just amazing power. To be honest, it's like heavyweight champion and I'm a feather champion, you know? That's how I felt. I cannot match up against her. Just too much power for me to handle, especially on a good day where she's playing well. It's amazing. I need to -- I need to improve some of the things, but I will never be like that.
At one point, Jankovic glanced at actor Woody Harrelson sitting courtside and made a humorous connection.
"I was thinking that one of the actors was in that movie, if you know, 'White Men Can't Jump,'" Jankovic said, as everyone in the press room began laughing, anticipating the punch line. "I was feeling when I was playing that match, I thought, 'White Girls Can't Play.'"

GrafMariaPetraK
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:16 PM
I think Maria played well her level went down in the last set,while Serena stepped it up, but i don't know why so many Williams fans hate Maria.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:17 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.

NOTHING TO ADD

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:19 PM
Maria won 2 of the last 6 majors. So I'm thinking Maria feels she can win any tournament.
Serena is holding no majors and has won only one in over 3 years. And just got beat down by Jankovic.
I think if anyone has mental issues, it's Serena at majors.


Well, Maria has won 2 majors in the last 3 years and Serena has won 1 major in that tiem frame. If Maria is as dominant as you say she is, then she should be trumping Serena in the major count and before this year they would have been tied in slam counts. You forgot to mention that Serena was injured almost the entire year in 2006 and was injured during the latter half of 2007 because of the calf and thumb injury she sustained at Wimbledon.

Maria Sharapova has played in EVERY slam during that time period and has only one 2 slams.

If we take a look, Serena has won 2 of the last 10 slams she has played and this is included when she was clearly injured.

Since that same time, Maria has won 2 of 13 slams and was healthy in all of them.

:wavey:

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:20 PM
NOTHING TO ADD


Well, Serena WAS achieving winning 4 majors in a row at the age Maria is now so maybe goldenlox is bitter.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:22 PM
Since that same time, Maria has won 2 of 13 slams and was healthy in all of them.

:wavey:

WRONG she wasn't healthy during OA, RG and WIMBLEDON 2007 and RG 2006.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:22 PM
WRONG? sh wasn't healthy during OA, RG and WIMBLEDON 2007.


Yes, she was. Otherwise she would have beaten Kim Clijsters in OZ. She didn't mention anything about an injury in her post match losses. :shrug:

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:24 PM
Well, Serena WAS achieving winning 4 majors in a row at the age Maria is now so maybe goldenlox is bitter.

Serena was alone on the wta tour, who was able to win a Gslam, Serena and Serena:lol::lol:, now the concurrence is harder, look at yourself, she won a GSlam every 2 years and always AOpen since 2003:rolleyes:

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:27 PM
Serena was alone on the wta tour, who was able to win a Gslam, Serena and Serena:lol::lol:, now the concurrence is harder, look at yourself, she won a GSlam every 2 years and always AOpen since 2003:rolleyes:


And! A slam is a slam. Maria's GS results haven't been as impressive. Her last slam before OZ this year was back in 2006. And, remember, Serena was injured and played only 4 tournaments throughout 2006.

Also, Maria is at the age where she should be dominating. Remember, at this age Serena, Venus and even Justine had long match win streaks and won majors back to back, something Maria has yet to do and probably won't do anytime soon.

VishaalMaria
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:28 PM
WRONG she wasn't healthy during OA, RG and WIMBLEDON 2007 and RG 2006.

Look, are you still on this "I hate Serena because she beat Maria so I'm going to leech of the weak points of others to make Maria look good" thing?

Just get over it. It's been a few days now. Serena beat Maria. Serena is the better player and always has been.

And oh yeah

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:............... .............................. :weirdo::weirdo:.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:29 PM
Look, are you still on this "I hate Serena because she beat Maria so I'm going to leech of the weak points of others to make Maria look good" thing?

Just get over it. It's been a few days now. Serena beat Maria. Serena is the better player and always has been.

And oh yeah

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:............... .............................. :weirdo::weirdo:.

:lol: We all know this, but the fact is that the Maria fans really think that Maria looks forward to playing the WS. She'd rather face any other player besides Henin on clay. Maria is 1-4 in slams against Venus and Serena and 3 of those losses have been blowouts.

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:33 PM
Maria can play the next 20 majors, and then she will still be 25.
Justine Venus and Serena all know the clock is ticking on their window to win majors.
Amelie and Lindsay already had their alarm go off.
Maria's future looks great.
And Venus has won 2 majors since 2001, when Nicole was 12.
Serena has won 2 since July 2003.
They aren't getting younger.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:34 PM
And! A slam is a slam. Maria's GS results haven't been as impressive. Her last slam before OZ this year was back in 2006. And, remember, Serena was injured and played only 4 tournaments throughout 2006.

Also, Maria is at the age where she should be dominating. Remember, at this age Serena, Venus and even Justine had long match win streaks and won majors back to back, something Maria has yet to do and probably won't do anytime soon.

But she dominate so far this season, win a Gslam without losing 1 set, and crush the N1 6460, she is dominating so far this start of the season,you don't wanna admit that. Me, I noticed Gslams, and Serena can't exceed QF of a GSlam nowadays so please. Stay quiet.

Nicolás89
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:36 PM
Well, Maria has won 2 majors in the last 3 years and Serena has won 1 major in that tiem frame. If Maria is as dominant as you say she is, then she should be trumping Serena in the major count and before this year they would have been tied in slam counts. You forgot to mention that Serena was injured almost the entire year in 2006 and was injured during the latter half of 2007 because of the calf and thumb injury she sustained at Wimbledon.

Maria Sharapova has played in EVERY slam during that time period and has only one 2 slams.

If we take a look, Serena has won 2 of the last 10 slams she has played and this is included when she was clearly injured.

Since that same time, Maria has won 2 of 13 slams and was healthy in all of them.

:wavey:

Well, Maria doesn't spell all the injuries she has as Serena does.

For the record,
'05 US Open - Injured (she admitted on 2006)
'06 RG - Injured (only clay tournament she played on 2006)
'07 Australian - Injured (she said on Tokyo the following week, shoulder problems)
'07 RG - Injured (the same as AO)

What you say it's not actually true.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:37 PM
Maria can play the next 20 majors, and then she will still be 25.
Justine Venus and Serena all know the clock is ticking on their window to win majors.
Amelie and Lindsay already had their alarm go off.
Maria's future looks great.
And Venus has won 2 majors since 2001, when Nicole was 12.
Serena has won 2 since July 2003.
They aren't getting younger.

It doesn't matter. Maria is at that age where most tennis greats have the most memorable and most successful parts of their careers. Venus, Justine and Serena were No.1 and winning slams back to back at the age Maria is now. Age really doesn't have much to do with it especially since Serena has won 3 straight tournaments and Venus winning Wimbledon easily at the age of 27 crushing Sharapova along the way.

Maybe Sharapova will dominate at age 25 who knows, and that's 16 slams away and not 20. But as of now, she has shown to just be a consistent player who wins slams every couple of years and hasn't shown that she can consistently dominate, for even a short span, like Justine, Serena, Venus and even Capriati has done.

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:38 PM
If Maria is healthy, she wouldn't be 2 points from losing to Pin.
2007 is over. Maria is healthy now, holding a major and #1 in the race.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:39 PM
But she dominate so far this season, win a Gslam without losing 1 set, and crush the N1 6460, she is dominating so far this start of the season,you don't wanna admit that. Me, I noticed Gslams, and Serena can't exceed QF of a GSlam nowadays so please. Stay quiet.

She is not dominating. She won a slam, it's true, but we have to wait until Wimbledon, US Open, and the French Open are over with to see if she actually dominated. She has shown that she is consistent in the slams and good enough to win one every couple of years but hasn't shown that she is able to dominate the slams and win them back to back like Venus, Serena and Justine have.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:41 PM
If Maria is healthy, she wouldn't be 2 points from losing to Pin.
2007 is over. Maria is healthy now, holding a major and #1 in the race.


:bs: Maria has had lots of close encounters in the majors. In fact, in 2004, when Maria won Wimbledon, she was 3 points from losing to Amy Frazier and also lost to Ai Sugiyama as well. She was healthy. Otherwise, she wouldn't have beaten Kim Clijsters in straight sets. No matter how well she was playing though, she was not gonna beat Serena in that final. No chance.

Also, at this point last year Serena was #1 in the race and holding a major. We have to see at the end of the year how she stacks up and if she can win majors more than once every 2 years.

VishaalMaria
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:42 PM
But she dominate so far this season, win a Gslam without losing 1 set, and crush the N1 6460, she is dominating so far this start of the season,you don't wanna admit that. Me, I noticed Gslams, and Serena can't exceed QF of a GSlam nowadays so please. Stay quiet.

I've noticed these days that you're really bitter. 7-5, 4-6, 6-1. One set point saved in the first set. The difference between Maria and Serena is, Serena is a better tennis player both physicaly and mentally. And last year, when Serena DID play Maria in a slam she blitzed her 6-1 6-2. This is all about Serena and Maria so there's no need to scrap the barrel here and always mention the whole QF thing. Fair enough if this was Serena V Justine, then feel free to mention those loses but Serena in those QFs was not facing Maria. So that point is not relevant.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:43 PM
I've noticed these days that you're really bitter. 7-5, 4-6, 6-1. One set point saved in the first set. The difference between Maria and Serena is, Serena is a better tennis player both physicaly and mentally. And last year, when Serena DID play Maria in a slam she blitzed her 6-1 6-2. This is all about Serena and Maria so there's no need to scrap the barrel here and always mention the whole QF thing. Fair enough if this was Serena V Justine, then feel free to mention those loses but Serena in those QFs was not facing Maria. So that point is not relevant.


Well, they can bring up Serena-Justine all they want. When Serena was healthy, and not playing with an injured thumb, we saw how she disposed of Justine earlier this year in Miami. :lol:

VishaalMaria
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:45 PM
If Maria is healthy, she wouldn't be 2 points from losing to Pin.
2007 is over. Maria is healthy now, holding a major and #1 in the race.

I'm glad you said that, so there are NO excuses now; since Serena recently beat Maria it means Serena is the better tennis player, both physically and mentally. And is this not what everythings down for? Being the best?

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:45 PM
Maria just played the best major of her life at age 20.
Nothing but positives there. I keep typing 2 out of 6, if she wins one more this year it's 3 of 9, maintains 33% in recent years, for a young player.
If Maria wins 2 more this year, that's domination. One more major is probably POY.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:46 PM
Maybe Sharapova will dominate at age 25 who knows, and that's 16 slams away and not 20. But as of now, she has shown to just be a consistent player who wins slams every couple of years and hasn't shown that she can consistently dominate, for even a short span, like Justine, Serena, Venus and even Capriati has done.

Williams dominate thanks to their power, there wasn't any girl who could hit the ball very harder like them, now it's totally different, they win a Gslam every 2 years, they aren't regular like Sharapova and Justine.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:48 PM
Maria just played the best major of her life at age 20.
Nothing but positives there. I keep typing 2 out of 6, if she wins one more this year it's 3 of 9, maintains 33% in recent years, for a young player.
If Maria wins 2 more this year, that's domination. One more major is probably POY.


Like I said speculation. AT 20, Serena had already won the French Open and was completing the Serena slam. Venus had just won back to back slams at age 20 and so did Justine. Maria has yet to show that kind of dominance. And :lol: at 2 of 6. Wow, that's soooooo dominant. That sure measures up to Serena winning 5 of 6 slams, Venus winning 4 of 6 slams and Justine winning 3 of 6 slams at one point. :lol:

VishaalMaria
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:49 PM
Williams dominate thanks to their power, there wasn't any girl who could hit the ball very harder like them, now it's totally different, they win a Gslam every 2 years, they aren't regular like Sharapova and Justine.

Well isn't that the case for Maria too? She won a slam in 2004, then two years later won another one. And then another two years later one another one. Which totally debunks your whole statement. :tape:

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:49 PM
We don't know, but Maria's 21 to 26 years are still ahead of her, not behind her.
And this is her best start to any year of her career. The year she turned 21.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:50 PM
Williams dominate thanks to their power, there wasn't any girl who could hit the ball very harder like them, now it's totally different, they win a Gslam every 2 years, they aren't regular like Sharapova and Justine.


Venus and Serena have won just as many majors as Maria has in the last 3 years. And yes, I am counting Oz 2005 which wasn't too far from 3 years ago.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:51 PM
We don't know, but Maria's 21 to 26 years are still ahead of her, not behind her.
And this is her best start to any year of her career. The year she turned 21.


Like I said speculation. We don't know what will Maria will do in that tiemframe. We only know now. And now, Maria has shown she can win a major every couple of years, and not dominate them like the players she consistently loses too (Serena, Venus, Justine.)

Nicolás89
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:51 PM
Maria could still win the next three slams, she would then dominate at age 21, just as Justine and Serena.

Il Primo!
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:52 PM
Yes, she was. Otherwise she would have beaten Kim Clijsters in OZ.

So what? Venus got injured during 03 Wimbledon SF and still whoop Kim's ass after the rain delay.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:53 PM
Well isn't that the case for Maria too? She won a slam in 2004, then two years later won another one. And then another two years later one another one. Which totally debunks your whole statement. :tape:


Yeah, he's really making a fool out of himself. It's hard to believe that Serena and Venus have been just as successful in the majors the last couple years as Maria has, but it's the truth. Not bad for aging players. ;) And meanwhile owning Maria 4-0 in that same time period in slams.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:53 PM
Maria could still win the next three slams, she would then dominate at age 21, just as Justine and Serena.

She won't win French Open if Serena or Justine she faces and she wont win Wimbly if she faces a healthy Venus. US Open...who knows? :shrug:

goldenlox
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:54 PM
If Maria wins 2 of the next 3, it's domination.
I don't care about domination.
I just want the most majors and the most titles and the most prizemoney of this generation.
If she wins one or two a year, that's fine.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:55 PM
Well isn't that the case for Maria too? She won a slam in 2004, then two years later won another one. And then another two years later one another one. Which totally debunks your whole statement. :tape:

Maria won on every surface, except clay since 2004, Wiwis win the same GSlam:rolleyes: beside when she won a Gslam, she totally dominate all the players, she lost only 1 set during USopen 2006, she didn't lost 1 set during AOpen 2008, she is very consistent in GSlam, not like Serena and Veus who save matchpoints and have up and down:rolleyes:

VishaalMaria
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:55 PM
To be honest, I don't know why we are going off topic and talking about slams. The fact of the matter is, Serena IS in Marias head as evidenced by the fact that, in their last encounter, Serena was mentally tougher [as she fought for that first set] AND, the indisputable evidence; Michael Joyce [straight from the horses mouth] made it clear to the whole world that Maria didn't have the belief she can beat Serena. Have you noticed, their matches really took a turning point when Serena saved those match points at the AO 05? Since then Serena has been in Maria's head.

I just don't see why Maria fans are arguing what Michael Joyce said. Straight from the horses mouth, yet they can't accept the truth and so bring up other irrelevant facts such as the amount of slams Maria has won in a time period. Now that IS telling.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:56 PM
If Maria wins 2 of the next 3, it's domination.
I don't care about domination.
I just want the most and the most titles and the most Prizemoney of this generation.


Well, Maria still has not done that and if she continues to win majors only once every two years, it certainly won't happen.

G1Player2
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:57 PM
To be honest, I don't know why we are going off topic and talking about slams. The fact of the matter is, Serena IS in Marias head as evidenced by the fact that, in their last encounter, Serena was mentally tougher [as she fought for that first set] AND, the indisputable evidence; Michael Joyce [straight from the horses mouth] made it clear to the whole world that Maria didn't have the belief she can beat Serena. Have you noticed, their matches really took a turning point when Serena saved those match points at the AO 05? Since then Serena has been in Maria's head.


Maria's game is similar to Lindsay Davenport's who Serena OWNS. Not surprised that Serena matches up well against Maria. Maria is pretty one dimensional so at their best Serena hits just as accurate, powerful and has the better serve.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 21st, 2008, 11:57 PM
She won't win French Open if Serena or Justine she faces and she wont win Wimbly if she faces a healthy Venus. US Open...who knows? :shrug:

What did you say during Aopen 2008, she had a tough draw, she's never gonna beat Henin, and what happen, she won.
And don't forget, Serena can lose against Jankovic, Ivanovic even in a GSlam, Venus too.

VishaalMaria
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:00 AM
Maria won on every surface, except clay since 2004, Wiwis win the same GSlam:rolleyes: beside when she won a Gslam, she totally dominate all the players, she lost only 1 set during USopen 2006, she didn't lost 1 set during AOpen 2008, she is very consistent in GSlam, not like Serena and Veus who save matchpoints and have up and down:rolleyes:

You're an idiot. There's nothing wrong with having a good fight and saving match points to win a match. That's what has made Serena and Venus the champions today. And thats why Maria finds it tough, in this case, to play Serena because of the mental toughness of Serena. Because she gets an easy ride that, when she faces somewhat of a challenge, most of the time she wilts. I mean, for example, look at Wimbledon 07; Maria was bltizing all of her opponents until she came up against Venus and that's when Maria got blitzed. So, sometimes it's not good playing easy matches; they dont toughen you up when you need to be tough.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:00 AM
Maria's game is similar to Lindsay Davenport's who Serena OWNS. Not surprised that Serena matches up well against Maria. Maria is pretty one dimensional so at their best Serena hits just as accurate, powerful and has the better serve.

Wrong, how do you explain Davenport can't beat Henin since Henin is at her best level, Maria her, beat Henin 3 times included 2 during a GSlams. 6464 US Open and 6460 OZ. Maria's game is not one dimensional, what the hell.

G1Player2
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:02 AM
Wrong, how do you explain Davenport can't beat Henin since Henin is at her best level, Maria her, beat Henin 3 times included 2 during a GSlams. 6464 US Open and 6460 OZ.

:weirdo:

VishaalMaria
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:03 AM
What did you say during Aopen 2008, she had a tough draw, she's never gonna beat Henin, and what happen, she won.
And don't forget, Serena can lose against Jankovic, Ivanovic even in a GSlam, Venus too.

Again, it's really pathetic; you bring in other players to make the Williams sisters look bad and therefore making Maria look better. This thread is about Serena and Maria. It has got nothing to do with Jelena and Ana.

Nicolás89
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:03 AM
She won't win French Open if Serena or Justine she faces and she wont win Wimbly if she faces a healthy Venus. US Open...who knows? :shrug:

Justine would have won the US Open '03 if Serena was there or the Australian Open '04?
Serena probably wouldn't have won a few of her slams either if Davenport and Venus were healthy back in '02 and '03.

G1Player2
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:04 AM
Justine would have won the US Open '03 if Serena was there or the Australian Open '04?
Serena probably wouldn't have won a few of her slams if Davenport and Venus were healthy back in '02 and '03.

Venus was healthy inn 2002 and 2003. And Davenport? :lol: Serena owns Davenport. And what does this have to do with what I just said?

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:05 AM
Again, it's really pathetic; you bring in other players to make the Williams sisters look bad and therefore making Maria look better. This thread is about Serena and Maria. It has got nothing to do with Jelena and Ana.

You said she can't beat Henin and Serena Williams if they play well, but maybe she don't have to face them, Jankovic can beat Serena, we saw that during OZ. STOP.

VishaalMaria
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:06 AM
You said she can't beat Henin and Serena Williams if they play well, but maybe she don't have to face them, Jankovic can beat Serena, we saw that during OZ. STOP.

Weak.

Matt01
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:08 AM
Wrong, how do you explain Davenport can't beat Henin since Henin is at her best level, Maria her, beat Henin 3 times included 2 during a GSlams. 6464 US Open and 6460 OZ. Maria's game is not one dimensional, what the hell.


Us Open: Henin had back problems. OZ: Henin had knee injury :angel:

(I'm not serious, I'm just using the same tactics some other people here would use :p The reality is, though, that Henin clearly leads the head-to-head with one-dimensional Pova. )

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:11 AM
Henin clearly leads the head-to-head with one-dimensional Pova. )

So what? It's Maria who beat her easily in OZ although Henin lead 6/2:rolleyes:

Nicolás89
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:11 AM
Venus was healthy inn 2002 and 2003. And Davenport? :lol: Serena owns Davenport. And what does this have to do with what I just said?

That you can't just say "if this player is......", you just never know, as no one could knew Serena wouldn't play the US Open '03 and the AO '04.

Venus was healthy at 2003? Ok.

goldenlox
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:15 AM
Henin might lead the h2h, but Maria won the USO 2006 and AO 2008 with Justine in the draw.
h2h's don't mean much compared to winning majors.
Sveta leads Maria 4-1 h2h outdoors, one of my favorite stats.
It didn't help Sveta win the AO.

G1Player2
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:17 AM
Henin might lead the h2h, but Maria won the USO 2006 and AO 2008 with Justine in the draw.
h2h's don't mean much compared to winning majors.
Sveta leads Maria 4-1 h2h outdoors, one of my favorite stats.
It didn't help Sveta win the AO.


Perhaps your right but not in the case of Maria when she faces Venus and Serena. Since you like to use the last 3 years so much, Maria is 0-4 against Venus and Serena in slams since then and Venus and Serena have went on to win the slam while at it. ;)

goldenlox
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:21 AM
I never said Venus and Serena and Justine were not excellent players.
They are.
But they were all in the AO draw, and they aren't getting any younger.
Maria said this spring that's she's still growing into her body.
She's a huge girl, and there is a possibility she is still not at her peak.
It makes the future fun.

Mashafaaaaan
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:25 AM
You are tiring, Maria don't look at the stats when she plays Serena, Henin or Venus or anyone else, everymatch is a new match and she has her chances to win it.
The h2h mean nothing to her, she always said that, even when she leads 5/0, she think she can lose. It's the same thing when she is leading by some players, it's a new match, and she can win.

Matt01
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:32 AM
Maria can play the next 20 majors, and then she will still be 25.
Justine Venus and Serena all know the clock is ticking on their window to win majors.
Amelie and Lindsay already had their alarm go off.
Maria's future looks great.
And Venus has won 2 majors since 2001, when Nicole was 12.
Serena has won 2 since July 2003.
They aren't getting younger.


Sharpie is a Top player since 2004 when she won her first major, only 1 year before Justine won her first one. Justine is a Top player since 2001/2002, that's not much longer than Sharpie, either. Justine has won 7 majors since 2003, Pova only 3 since 2004, that's a big difference.

And Sharpie's clock is ticking as well. Her shoulder won't hold up forever, and we have seen the beat-downs she is getting (see 2007) when her serve doesn't work.
She isn't getting any younger, either.
If I was her, I would concentrate on winning the Slams now instead of waiting until Justine and Serena have retired.

scorpio64
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:36 AM
I was at the match and yes Serena may have been in Maria's head , but this was a great match that most folks including Maria probably did not think that on clay this would be such a close match. I think that this will give Maria confidence considering the previous scores. Serena is still the better athlete and has better shot selection, but if Maria plays like this on grass and other fast courts she will always have a shot and if she serves any better she will win some. They both were so much better than the other players in Charleston. The tournament died after their match.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:37 AM
Maria didn't play Serena at the AO.
That isn't Maria's fault, and it isn't weakness to win a major without losing a set.You continue to miss the mark (intentionally, apparently, because of your absurdly weak position).

The issue is whether Serena is in Maria's head. Clearly, based on Maria's own coaches comments, she is. And you have not even remotely convinced otherwise- other than wishful thinking. Yet you continue to bring up victories in which- while they are sincerely to Maria's credit- she didn't have to face Serena Williams.

Of course, as you say, that's not Maria's fault, but- yet again- that's beside the point.

Fault is not the issue.

What happens when Maria doesn't face Serena is not the issue (except, perhaps, in a comparative way that only further illustrates my point).

What IS the issue is whats been happening when Maria faces Serena. Clearly, Michael Joyce feels like Serena adversely affects Maria mentally. Of course you blind yourself to that clear fact, dodging the question, bringing up whatever irrelevant facts you can, raising the issue of Maria's career horizon, how much time she has, blah, blah, blah. All of which MIGHT be true but have nothing to do with the issue of this thread.

You would do yourself and your credibility a service by simply admitting it. It doesn't take away from Maria's great achievements. It just simply is what it is.

Il Primo!
Apr 22nd, 2008, 12:40 AM
GoldenTrollx is a lost cause. Argue with real human beings to beging with. That @chick is bugging on the same sentences. I mean seriosuly, give it up alrealy.

serenafan08
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:07 AM
This has been an issue for a long time - after Serena came back in Australia in 2005, she's always been in Maria's head. Even Maria admitted a few weeks later in Indian Wells after a long match that she started thinking back to Australia. She beat somebody (can't remember who) like 7-5 in the third set, and she said that she kept remembering how she wasn't able to close it out against Serena in Australia. Then last year, losing 1, 2 and 1, 1 definitely was proof. That match in Miami was the worst I have seen Maria play; she had zero confidence in herself that day - that's why she lost so bad. I know her shoulder was bothering her and that probably added to her anxiety. The fact of the matter is that Serena does everything better than Maria - she moves better, volleys better, serves better, and has better tactics. And when her groundstrokes click Serena can outhit anyone. Some of Serena's returns were just downright scary! No one does that to Maria except Serena.

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:24 AM
How does Michael Joyce telling Maria that she needs "to believe" proof that Serena is in Maria's head? There's no doubt that Serena's gotten the better of Maria the past year and a half, but him saying that doesn't prove anything. Maybe I'm missing something. Sharapova played a bad match, made way too many unforced errors, and was too passive. If she was struggling like that aginst any good player, Michael would have told her that she needs "to believe". Maria had a VERY similar match to this in Indian Wells against Sveta. Missed opportunities, flashes of brilliance, and then a flat third set. Is Sveta in Maria's head?

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:30 AM
...If she was struggling like that aginst any good player, Michael would have told her that she needs "to believe".

I simply disagree. Maria wouldn't NEED to be told that, imo. I don't know how much or what level of competitive sport you've played, but in my experience, when a coach goes to the "you've got to believe..." rhetoric, it's because his/her players are vulnerable to mentally collapsing.

Maria had a VERY similar match to this in Indian Wells against Sveta. Missed opportunities, flashes of brilliance, and then a flat third set. Is Sveta in Maria's head? I don't know. You'd have to ask Michael Joyce if he told her she had to "believe" then too. ;)

Anyway, Yours is a Poor analogy.

Sveta hasn't PASTED Maria the last few times they've played, and Sveta isn't Serena- eight time grand slam champion- Williams.

homogenius
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:33 AM
GoldenTrollx is a lost cause. Argue with real human beings to beging with. That @chick is bugging on the same sentences. I mean seriosuly, give it up alrealy.

:spit:

homogenius
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:38 AM
Maria's game is not one dimensional, what the hell.

So what are the "multidimensions" of Maria's game ? Does she has a plan B or C when plan A doesn't work ?

Dan23
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:45 AM
I simply disagree. Maria wouldn't NEED to be told that, imo. I don't know how much or what level of competitive sport you've played, but in my experience, when a coach goes to the "you've got to believe..." rhetoric, it's because his/her players are vulnerable to mentally collapsing.

I don't know. You'd have to ask Michael Joyce if he told her she had to "believe" then too. ;)

Anyway, Yours is a Poor analogy.

Sveta hasn't PASTED Maria the last few times they've played, and Sveta isn't Serena- eight time grand slam champion- Williams.
Joyce has said similar things in the past during other set breaks. I dont see why its such a big deal though, all this 'in the head' business. Conversely Maria is in Serena's head because she seems to feel the need to drive herself 110% when competing against Maria, and that is indirectly a show of respect.
If Maria didnt think she could win every time she played regardless of the opponent why would she bother. There are long term goals, far more important than that single match and that H2H. As GL points out in a roundabout way, it means nothing when the next match starts and for players like Maria/Serena GS battles are the most important....on those battles they've each got a shot in so far.

Dan23
Apr 22nd, 2008, 03:52 AM
So what are the "multidimensions" of Maria's game ? Did she has a plan B or C when plan A doesn't work ?
:yawn: Plan A, B, C crap. How is that what being multidimensional is?
Its being able to vary the attack to suit the situation, both physically and mentally while allowing a margin for error when needed and not being too predictable. Both Maria's ground strokes and her serve have a range of variation to make them unpredictable enough. Her backhand especially has a wide margin of error.

homogenius
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:01 AM
:yawn: Plan A, B, C crap. How is that what being multidimensional is?
Its being able to vary the attack to suit the situation, both physically and mentally while allowing a margin for error when needed and not being too predictable. Both Maria's ground strokes and her serve have a range of variation to make them unpredictable enough. Her backhand especially has a wide margin of error.

I just disagree.Maria's game IS one dimensionnal.She just plays this game very very well.She has no variety really (all the talk about her dropshops, slice etc...please.She tried two dropshots against Serena and looked ridiculous).

On the plan A, B,C etc...When you look at some players like Henin, Mauresmo they are able to change her game if plan A doesn't work (go to the net, variate the effects and pace of the bal etc...).Even Serena is able to do that to a lesser extent (like in Miami's final last year).Sharapova is not able to do that yet.

homogenius
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:04 AM
btw : it's not an insult to say that she's one dimensional.The way she plays is very effective most of the time.

Svetlana.
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:16 AM
GoldenTrollx is a lost cause. Argue with real human beings to beging with. That @chick is bugging on the same sentences. I mean seriosuly, give it up alrealy.

at least she never starts personal attacks like you for instance.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:25 AM
Joyce has said similar things in the past during other set breaks.

Name them. I'd like to hear how similar they are. If you can't or they aren't than my point still stands.

I dont see why its such a big deal though, all this 'in the head' business.

It is probably one of the MOST IMPORTANT issues in ALL of sport. If an opponent can get into your head and make you doubt that you have the ability to beat them, you probably won't. Talk to players who faced Michael Jordan throughout the '90s. I'm sure they'd tell you about the "in the head" factor. It's fundamental.

Conversely Maria is in Serena's head because she seems to feel the need to drive herself 110% when competing against Maria, and that is indirectly a show of respect.

No argument there, just a distinction. One is positive "in the head," and one is negative.

If Maria didnt think she could win every time she played regardless of the opponent why would she bother.

Of course. The same could be said of Brie Whitehead.

The point is, it's a matter of degrees and fortitude. To what DEGREE does she believe and does she have the mental FORTITUDE to maintain that belief when the pressures on. Clearly, Joyce felt like it (the "fortitude") needed some shoring up.

....on those battles they've each got a shot in so far. Serena has two. '05 AO & and '07. ;) :p

faboozadoo15
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:43 AM
I simply disagree. Maria wouldn't NEED to be told that, imo. I don't know how much or what level of competitive sport you've played, but in my experience, when a coach goes to the "you've got to believe..." rhetoric, it's because his/her players are vulnerable to mentally collapsing.

I don't know. You'd have to ask Michael Joyce if he told her she had to "believe" then too. ;)


Who said Maria NEEDED to be told she needs to told to believe in the first place? This was Joyce's decision to try to inspire Maria on a changeover. All good coaches try to get their players to exercise visualization, believing, executing. Maria did a poor job in excuting in the first set of the match. She had a set point and served for the set. She squandered several leads. She was making loads of easy errors. Any coach would try to get their player to believe in themself, their game, their shots.

Why would you need to ask Joyce about whether he told Maria to believe when playing Sveta? :weirdo: There wasn't on court coaching, and all players lose matches-- and when you're losing, you need to believe you can come back. Are you new to this?

Dan23
Apr 22nd, 2008, 04:51 AM
btw : it's not an insult to say that she's one dimensional.The way she plays is very effective most of the time.I dont want to sound like a broken record but we'll have to agree to disagree :p Watch closely from the front row at one of her matches.


Name them. I'd like to hear how similar they are. If you can't or they aren't than my point still stands.I cant reel off every comment Joyce has made but he generally selects them from a very short list.

It is probably one of the MOST IMPORTANT issues in ALL of sport. If an opponent can get into your head and make you doubt that you have the ability to beat them, you probably won't. Talk to players who faced Michael Jordan throughout the '90s. I'm sure they'd tell you about the "in the head" factor. It's fundamental.Yes but everything here is never ending, over analysed speculation. Its very one dimensional :rolleyes: :lol:

No argument there, just a distinction. One is positive "in the head," and one is negative.:lol: we have different types of 'in the head' now?

Of course. The same could be said of Brie Whitehead.Is everyone that has pwned Brie in her head as well?

The point is, it's a matter of degrees and fortitude. To what DEGREE does she believe and does she have the mental FORTITUDE to maintain that belief when the pressures on. Clearly, Joyce felt like it (the "fortitude") needed some shoring up.I'd tell Maria that too if it was 1 set all against any player. He wants to encourage her.

Serena has two. '05 AO & and '07. ;) :ptrue that 05 SF was basically a final...

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 22nd, 2008, 05:06 AM
Who said Maria NEEDED to be told she needs to told to believe in the first place?

Obviously JOYCE thought she needed to be told.


All good coaches try to get their players to exercise visualization, believing, executing.

Thus proving my point. A good coach will address the area in which his player is in need. Joyce addressed Maria's BELIEF and her ball toss. Time again he admonished her to not to worry about what's going on on the other side of the net and to concentrate on her own game. If you can't see WHY he was saying that, you're simply in denial. It's self evident.

Any coach would try to get their player to believe in themself, their game, their shots.
If a player is executing poorly, the coach addresses WHY. Joyce didn't address Maria's belief in her "shots" or her "execution". He addressed Maria's belief that she could WIN- that she could beat Serena.

If your competing and find yourself in a constant position where your coach has to convince you that you can win, it's because you're potentially being defeated MENTALLY, ie, IN THE HEAD!

Why would you need to ask Joyce about whether he told Maria to believe when playing Sveta? :weirdo: There wasn't on court coaching...You're the one that brought up the Sveta situation. I was just illustrating how silly the comparison was. The point being, we don't know what he said to Sveta and therefore don't know what the issue was, so you bringing it up senseless.