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Volcana
Feb 19th, 2008, 04:10 AM
"Sport is that child we raised with money but not love, who we allowed to grow up amid privilege but no values except to win at all costs." - Bill Rhoden
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/sports/baseball/15rhoden.html?ref=baseball

The article refers to baseball. But consider the shrieks of Sharapova (and Venus, and Seles, and a host of others), the squeaks of Ivanovic, the Karantancheva steroids, Justine Henin and "the Hand", Capriati and her argument that she deserved to benefit by demonstrably bad calls because she'd been victimized by them, and of course, the coaching and the bathroom breaks. The relation to tennis begins to come into focus.

Few of you (Fingon will) remember 1968, and the beginning of open tennis. And the arguments against it. Chief among those arguments, tennis was a sport built on honor and honesty and sportsmanship beyond all else, and professionalism would ruin that. That dishonesty in the relentless pursuit of the money that comes with winning would become the norm.

It was said that Arthur Ashe could just raise an eyebrow over a bad call and the chair umpire would overrule. His reputation for honesty was so bulletproof that if he questioned a call, there was NO doubt he was right. Who among today's players is given that kind of respect? And who has earned it? Who COULD earn it? The amounts of money involved are so huge, the concept of honor so vanishing, that one simply can NOT assume that a player holds their reputation higher than the millions they can win. Think about it. Venus Williams' children, should she have any, will never have to work, if Venus invests wisely. Speaking as a parent, that's an assurance for my children I only wish I had.

When I was a kid, sports was said to build character, and teach the values of discipline, respect, honesty and hard work. 'Honesty' has somehow been lost. It used to be that losing honestly and honorably was better than winning by taking every shotcut and advantage possible. No longer so. Predictably so, some would say.

So, to re-visit that old argument, that so few here will remember, was the move to open tennis ultimately a mistake? Tennis has lost both it's honor AND it's popularity. What has it gained? For the players, money. But what of the sport itself?

Sam L
Feb 19th, 2008, 06:00 AM
It's true. I think you make a lot of good points actually. But don't forget Graf turning a blind eye in the '99 RG final. That's another example.

Junex
Feb 19th, 2008, 06:04 AM
Sadly, this is not just in sports...
in this days, it is beyond sports!
money has become so powerful that when the stakes are higher, values & honor are thrown out the window....

there are a few who still regard values and honor priceless.... the select few...
but the people who are cast in the limelight, the rich and the famous... the politicians have become the epitome of dishonor and disgrace, and yet they are still put up in a high pedestal such that we the common mass would think.... It is OK....

Sad really...but I have learned to accept that this is human's destiny...a road to a doomed existence!....

that is why i never made a family of my own... I am afraid for my children.....

Who said there will be change....?
As long as people lived by the currency..
as long as politicians and politics are run by money...
there won't be no CHANGE...
People are easily corrupted!!!!!

darrinbaker00
Feb 19th, 2008, 06:06 AM
All sports have become corrupted by money. Period. Next topic, please.

DOUBLEFIST
Feb 19th, 2008, 07:22 AM
...that is why i never made a family of my own... I am afraid for my children.....

The only way to change the world is to teach the children we raise to change it. In absence of raising "changed" children, expect more of the same from the world, understanding that the reasoning of your own choice has had a hand in it. :shrug:


As for sports, the issue is not the money in the game it's the INDIVIDUALS in the money, so to speak. It takes a strong individual to determine integrity and absolution are not for sale.

Junex
Feb 19th, 2008, 08:07 AM
The only way to change the world is to teach the children we raise to change it. In absence of raising "changed" children, expect more of the same from the world, understanding that the reasoning of your own choice has had a hand in it. :shrug:


As for sports, the issue is not the money in the game it's the INDIVIDUALS in the money, so to speak. It takes a strong individual to determine integrity and absolution are not for sale.

I am just over dramatic in my first post....
actually i am gay so there would be little desire for me to have children...:angel:

But If I have to have children, i would raise them to be of good values.
And I will teach them not to learn not to look-up to other people...
to stick to their own values and follow fairly the rules of the land...
to ignore the previledges of others but be mindful to the needs of the many...

But the world we are leaving is scary...
People values the money.
people are so focused on how to get rich...
Rich people and their lifestyles are shoved in our throat....
and the world that is governed by money....is scary.....

Mr_Molik
Feb 19th, 2008, 08:17 AM
It's true. I think you make a lot of good points actually. But don't forget Graf turning a blind eye in the '99 RG final. That's another example.
:haha: turned a blind eye to what? hingis behaving like a petulant child?

*JR*
Feb 19th, 2008, 01:33 PM
You want a real scandal, try the raiding of tax money that should repair the crumbling American infrastructure to replace perfectly sound baseball/football stadiums that were in service for 30 years or less with new ones where the elite can rent skyboxes to remain separate from ordinary ppl. (Which the NY Times article linked to doesn't address).

Remember last summer's bridge collapse in Minneapolis? It happened during the construction (financed by a 1% sales tax in the metro area) of a replacement for the Metrodome of the type described above. Compared to that, cheating to win a competition pales by comparison. (When you have 40 plus metro areas that can sustain a team competing for around 30 franchises in a sport, this counterproductive bidding war was quite predictable).

starr
Feb 19th, 2008, 01:53 PM
It was said that Arthur Ashe could just raise an eyebrow over a bad call and the chair umpire would overrule. His reputation for honesty was so bulletproof that if he questioned a call, there was NO doubt he was right.

I'm sure Ashe would be laughing if he read that statement. He would have loved it if it were true. :lol: :lol: I do understand your point however. I think a better way to put it was that when his opponent questioned a call, and Ashe affirmed that the ball was out, the competitor was sure that Ashe was being honest.

But look at some other players who played at the same time Ashe played -- and before he played too. Nastase was not a trustworthy guy. And before that -- Gonzales! Probably the original bad boy of tennis -- and his early years of playing were before the open era. Also the whole thing about professionalism ruining the sportsmanship and honesty of the game because it would just be a pursuit of winning and money is the sort of argument that made the guys who started the pro tour so mad. There was complete dishonesty before the open era. Players were paid under the table and everyone pretended they were not. Players were paid not just on their results but on who they knew and kowtowed to and who they flattered. The guys who started the tour thought that being paid straight out on their results put honesty back in the game.

Sometimes we distort the past to make a point about our present circumstance. The past is usually just as complicated and as full of nuance as our current time. The issues may be different, but human beings tend to be the same.

bwahahahahaha
Feb 19th, 2008, 02:07 PM
:haha: turned a blind eye to what? hingis behaving like a petulant child?

Watch the match again idiot. Graf waited there as if she didn't see the mark when she could easily point it like the "classy" champion her fans want us to believe she is. No wonder Justine's idol is Steffi.

matty
Feb 19th, 2008, 02:49 PM
JUNEX:
"But If I have to have children, i would raise them to be of good values.
And I will teach them not to learn not to look-up to other people...
to stick to their own values and follow fairly the rules of the land...
to ignore the previledges of others but be mindful to the needs of the many..."



I know that's the right thing to do, but I kinda want mine to be a tennis pro! :rolleyes:

GoDominique
Feb 19th, 2008, 03:07 PM
Ah, Volcana and Sam L. My favourite retarded pseudo-intellectuals.

Volcana
Feb 19th, 2008, 04:47 PM
All sports have become corrupted by money. Period. Next topic, please.Hardly. Biathlon? Croquet? Ultimate Frisbee?

More to the point, so what if a lot of sports have been corrupted by money? The question is whether that's an aspect of the culture/sport we seek to change? As a parent, do you actively encourage your child to cheat? Or to play within the rules,. even if it means a loss to a cheater?

'Next topic, please'? No. This one still interests me. But feel free to move almog if you like.
You want a real scandal, try the raiding of tax money that should repair the crumbling American infrastructure to replace perfectly sound baseball/football stadiums that were in service for 30 years or less with new ones where the elite can rent skyboxes to remain separate from ordinary ppl. (Which the NY Times article linked to doesn't address).

Remember last summer's bridge collapse in Minneapolis? It happened during the construction (financed by a 1% sales tax in the metro area) of a replacement for the Metrodome of the type described above. Compared to that, cheating to win a competition pales by comparison. (When you have 40 plus metro areas that can sustain a team competing for around 30 franchises in a sport, this counterproductive bidding war was quite predictable).Actually, I consider that to be part and parcel of the same problem. There's not only corruption within professional sports, professional sports begins to corrupt the society around it. New York City is another place that routinely gives away money for frivolities while ignoring infrastructure. The Yankees and Mets, both among the most lucrative sports franchises in the world both have deals for partial public financing of new stadiums. I don't blame them for asking for the money. But when you have roads and schools and bridges in disrepair, now important is a sports stadium?

Forehand_Volley
Feb 19th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Watch the match again idiot. Graf waited there as if she didn't see the mark when she could easily point it like the "classy" champion her fans want us to believe she is. No wonder Justine's idol is Steffi.
I've watched that match several times (archived), generally accompanied with popcorn.

Hingis fit throwing and unsportsman-like conduct in that GS final screwed her mentally for the rest of her career. Even momma had to escort her back on-court. On that day in 1999, I knew Hingis would never again win a GS final. I was right.

Knowing what we know now about Hingis, I just wonder if her "odd" on-court behaviors in the 1999 French Open final was actually Hingis coming down from a cocaine high.

Destiny
Feb 19th, 2008, 05:08 PM
With Money comes CORRUPTION
its sad but true

Jem
Feb 19th, 2008, 05:52 PM
"Few of you (Fingon will) remember 1968, and the beginning of open tennis. And the arguments against it. Chief among those arguments, tennis was a sport built on honor and honesty and sportsmanship beyond all else, and professionalism would ruin that. That dishonesty in the relentless pursuit of the money that comes with winning would become the norm.
Think about it. Venus Williams' children, should she have any, will never have to work, if Venus invests wisely. Speaking as a parent, that's an assurance for my children I only wish I had.
I understand where you're coming from, Volcana, but don't completely agree. Tennis and sport suffer from what has happened to society, as much as the "professionalism" of the game. Tennis pre-1968 had its share of problems; they didn't call amatuerism shamatuerism for nothing.
In the old days, most folks played the lines as they were called. It was the player's job to play tennis and the linesmen's job to call the lines. I would say there was a belief that everything would even out in the long run
As for children, I have no desire to leave mine in a position where they would not be required to work. Yes, I desire to leave them a nest egg of sorts, but I think the key is to leave them with a desire to pursue honest gain and meaningful work. Having something meaningful to do -- and meaningful relationships with your family, friends and God -- is the key to happiness in life. I think the worst thing in the world a parent could do for a child is to put him or her in a situation where they would never have to work ... or to teach them that nothing matters beyond the pursuit of wealth. Both situations would create very dreary existences.

Volcana
Feb 19th, 2008, 07:16 PM
I understand where you're coming from, Volcana, but don't completely agree. Tennis and sport suffer from what has happened to society, as much as the "professionalism" of the game. Tennis pre-1968 had its share of problems; they didn't call amatuerism shamatuerism for nothing.
In the old days, most folks played the lines as they were called. It was the player's job to play tennis and the linesmen's job to call the lines. I would say there was a belief that everything would even out in the long run
As for children, I have no desire to leave mine in a position where they would not be required to work. Yes, I desire to leave them a nest egg of sorts, but I think the key is to leave them with a desire to pursue honest gain and meaningful work. Having something meaningful to do -- and meaningful relationships with your family, friends and God -- is the key to happiness in life. I think the worst thing in the world a parent could do for a child is to put him or her in a situation where they would never have to work ... or to teach them that nothing matters beyond the pursuit of wealth. Both situations would create very dreary existences.I understand where you're coming from, but don't entirely agree. Never having to work, and having 'meaningful' work, are not mutually exclusive concepts. I know a day care worker who's family left her so much money at age 18 that she need never have worked. She chooses to, and does a fine job in a vocation that she might not otherwise have been able to afford. Without inherited wealth, she would have needed to do something more lucrative.

venus_rulez
Feb 19th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I don't think that the pursuit of money is always about greed. I think a lot of people would love to know that they are financially secure. Many many many people are a paycheck away from being homeless and going without food, so why wouldn't people want to get as much money as they could.