PDA

View Full Version : Jelena Better have won that Match...


DOUBLEFIST
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:11 AM
Given all the opportunities Serena gave her early, late and in between.

That's got to be the weirdest Serena Williams loss I've EVER seen (and I've been watching her a long time).

It was almost as if Serena REFUSED to WIN! :weird: Instead of doing what she normally does and refuse to lose. She refused to move even reasonably well. (JJ had nothing to do with her poor movement). She refused to serve well (JJ had nothing to do with her poor serving). She refused to fight (JJ did nothing special to take away her spirit.)

It was just :weird: I've got a theory, but it's waaaay too incendiary to be aired publicly.

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:16 AM
i disagree, she looked much worse at the US open... At least here you saw some life in her.... she tried to battle back at the end, but too little to late, jankovic saw the finish line and ran for it. Serena pretty much gave her a 20 minute head start though

SharapovaFan16
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:16 AM
Delusional. Jelena played a much cleaner game, and played the longer rallies better.

GogoGirl
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:18 AM
All,

Do tell please. I agree w/you all the way. You are quite on point. I too have been watching Serena a long time. What's your theory?

Her serve alone (being the best in the biz) was off. Under 100 MPH? I mean really!

But alas, it is just a game. It is not rocket science. And none of those ladies will solve world hunger w/a ball and racket. The good news is Serena will live to play another tourney. Not that she needs to w/all her money and bling - mind you.

fufuqifuqishahah
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:21 AM
tell us your theory!!!! or at least pm ME if you want. :)

fufuqifuqishahah
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:22 AM
hm.... interesting.

DimaDinosaur
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:26 AM
ohhh, pm me your theory too pleaseeeee

starin
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:35 AM
PM me too :)

I will say Serena gave Jelena a lot of chances on her serve that normally Jankovic wouldn't have had. And :rolleyes: I know people will say I'm being bitter and a hater and blah blah but I just thought if Serena could serve like she normally does the match wouldn't gone the way it did. anyhoo JMHO disagree if you want. I like Jelena...she's cute at times but she needs to watch tapes of herself last year b4 Wimbledon and she'll see that she's not playing well. And I've watched Jankovic a lot...cuz she's in almost every single tournament.

DOUBLEFIST
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:36 AM
i disagree, she looked much worse at the US open... At least here you saw some life in her.... she tried to battle back at the end, but too little to late, jankovic saw the finish line and ran for it. Serena pretty much gave her a 20 minute head start though
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.

Delusional. Jelena played a much cleaner game, and played the longer rallies better.
All good points (except for the delusional part of course ;) ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.

mboyle
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:40 AM
I understand that Williams fans will be delusional because their emotional well being rests on the lie (formed when Serena had a brief, 1.5 year period of dominance in which it was almost true) that no one is good enough to beat Serena other than Serena herself. However, an unbiased analysis with its basis in facts (i.e. match statistics) reveals a far different picture.

What really happened is that Jankovic neutralized Serena's serve because she got most of them back really deep without much pace, allowing Jankovic to give Serena few free points on serve and also to get back to the center of the court. It was brilliant. From there, Jankovic kept the ball within a foot of the line on almost every shot, and did not miss. Jankovic had five more winners than UFEs. For a match of this caliber, that is very very solid indeed. But what's more striking, Jelena won 3 out of every 4 points when Serena put in a second serve.:eek: Serena's second delivery was rather slow, but so was Jelena's, yet Jelena managed to win 50% of second serve points. Jelena also capitalized on her break point opportunities--winning almost 50% of them. Against a player as mentally tough and with as big a serve as Serena, that's incredible and speaks volumes about Jelena's improved mental toughness.

But the biggest statistic that reveals that Serena was not nearly as big a factor as Jelena in this match's result, is the fact that Serena hit 34 winners to 36 UFEs--against a player as fast as Jankovic. Serena has won matches against top players with a -10 and even -15 numbers before. Granted, anytime a player is in the negatives, that does mean she's not zoning or playing her best, but anywhere within 5 of neutral shows that a player is playing well enough to win. Jelena was +5, so she was playing very well, but that was a bigger factor.

I think the truth is that Jelena's form of return takes away Serena's biggest advantage, and will until Serena becomes comfortable with serving and volleying.

mboyle
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:41 AM
Guys, obviously DoubleFist's theory is that Serena got paid off by a betting agency to throw the match.

mboyle
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:41 AM
Another important thing to look at: Jelena won a large majority of games that got to Deuce. Serena was not as mentally tough as she normally is, and Jelena was very mentally tough.

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:43 AM
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.


All good points (except for the delusional part of course ;) ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.

I meant her lackluster I dont care attitude at the US OPEN.... and no she was in much better shape when she won the title in 05... just look at pictures of it.... The "great" shape shes gotten in. she looks better but lets not kid ourselves, shes only lost maybe 15-20 pounds... And shes nowhere near as toned as she was in 05.... and lets not even talk about her 03 body....

As far as her form is concerned... it wasnt that great... Her serve was though... and she didnt have it today, or in her last match for that matter.... as someone else said she was living and dying bye it, even though she did infact play better, and clearly something else was on her mind... where is the interview.... tired of waiting...

mboyle
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:45 AM
But that was the USO, at the end of a disappointing year in which her fitness and motivation was a constant question. Quite frankly, while a lot of us hoped and believed otherwise, in retrospect her results weren't that surprising. This however was the top of the year, when she looked as fit as she's looked since late '02 and her form was arguably the best at the tournament and had been serving and moving fantastically.


All good points (except for the delusional part of course ;) ) but none of those points have anything to do with Serena's poor serving, crappy footwork (even in the early games which she won) or lack of fighting spirit. So while your points are good in a vaacuum, they're irrelevant to my question.

1. Serena didn't play well at the Hopman cup. She has looked fit, she had been serving well, but she hasn't moved well since 2003. Her footwork has always been a weakness (even when she was fast.) I saw a lot of "come ons" and Serena looked pissed when she lost. Her serving wasn't awful. She still had 4 aces and was at 56% first serves. Granted, it's not what she had been serving, but it wasn't like she was serving at 40% and 90MPH.

starin
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:46 AM
I understand that Williams fans will be delusional because their emotional well being rests on the lie (formed when Serena had a brief, 1.5 year period of dominance in which it was almost true) that no one is good enough to beat Serena other than Serena herself. However, an unbiased analysis with its basis in facts (i.e. match statistics) reveals a far different picture.

What really happened is that Jankovic neutralized Serena's serve because she got most of them back really deep without much pace, allowing Jankovic to give Serena few free points on serve and also to get back to the center of the court. It was brilliant. From there, Jankovic kept the ball within a foot of the line on almost every shot, and did not miss. Jankovic had five more winners than UFEs. For a match of this caliber, that is very very solid indeed. But what's more striking, Jelena won 3 out of every 4 points when Serena put in a second serve.:eek: Serena's second delivery was rather slow, but so was Jelena's, yet Jelena managed to win 50% of second serve points. Jelena also capitalized on her break point opportunities--winning almost 50% of them. Against a player as mentally tough and with as big a serve as Serena, that's incredible and speaks volumes about Jelena's improved mental toughness.

But the biggest statistic that reveals that Serena was not nearly as big a factor as Jelena in this match's result, is the fact that Serena hit 34 winners to 36 UFEs--against a player as fast as Jankovic. Serena has won matches against top players with a -10 and even -15 numbers before. Granted, anytime a player is in the negatives, that does mean she's not zoning or playing her best, but anywhere within 5 of neutral shows that a player is playing well enough to win. Jelena was +5, so she was playing very well, but that was a bigger factor.

I think the truth is that Jelena's form of return takes away Serena's biggest advantage, and will until Serena becomes comfortable with serving and volleying.

:tape: Did we watch the same match? Serena's big serve? where was that for a set and 1/2 where her avg. 1st serve was under 100mph? Is a serve consistently udner 100 mph a big serve? IMO you lost all credibility when you said Serena was barely a better mover than Vaidisova.

Serena avg. 1st serve for hte match: 101 mph
Serena avg. 2nd serve for the match: 81 mph

So Jankovic was defending against a huge serve that was avg. 101 mph??? I don't think she's ever faced a bigger serve than 101mph and 98 mph for a set and 1/2.

Jankovic actually had a faster 2nd serve than Serena. How many time has Serena served so slow on her 2nd serve? Jankovic was really returning well against those bombs Serena was consistently throwing down.

Can the og. poster pm their secret theory please?

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:48 AM
I understand that Williams fans will be delusional because their emotional well being rests on the lie (formed when Serena had a brief, 1.5 year period of dominance in which it was almost true) that no one is good enough to beat Serena other than Serena herself. However, an unbiased analysis with its basis in facts (i.e. match statistics) reveals a far different picture.

What really happened is that Jankovic neutralized Serena's serve because she got most of them back really deep without much pace, allowing Jankovic to give Serena few free points on serve and also to get back to the center of the court. It was brilliant. From there, Jankovic kept the ball within a foot of the line on almost every shot, and did not miss. Jankovic had five more winners than UFEs. For a match of this caliber, that is very very solid indeed. But what's more striking, Jelena won 3 out of every 4 points when Serena put in a second serve.:eek: Serena's second delivery was rather slow, but so was Jelena's, yet Jelena managed to win 50% of second serve points. Jelena also capitalized on her break point opportunities--winning almost 50% of them. Against a player as mentally tough and with as big a serve as Serena, that's incredible and speaks volumes about Jelena's improved mental toughness.

But the biggest statistic that reveals that Serena was not nearly as big a factor as Jelena in this match's result, is the fact that Serena hit 34 winners to 36 UFEs--against a player as fast as Jankovic. Serena has won matches against top players with a -10 and even -15 numbers before. Granted, anytime a player is in the negatives, that does mean she's not zoning or playing her best, but anywhere within 5 of neutral shows that a player is playing well enough to win. Jelena was +5, so she was playing very well, but that was a bigger factor.

I think the truth is that Jelena's form of return takes away Serena's biggest advantage, and will until Serena becomes comfortable with serving and volleying.

While i agree her "dominance" is often alittle too much (IMO... as she had a great 1.5 years, and spotty results elsewhere, whereas Venus, Davenport, Hingis, are viewed as being far lesser players when they were on the top for much longer than her challenging for titles) however, you're analysis of the match is just bad...

Her movement was horrid, and she served her first serve in the 1rst set at 87 mph...... Her mind was def elsewhere...Jelena played a solid match....but not anymore solid than she has in the past.. nothing special, nothing new....as I said Serena let Jelena see the finish line and then when she tried to come back, Jelena slammed the door...

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:54 AM
1. Serena didn't play well at the Hopman cup. She has looked fit, she had been serving well, but she hasn't moved well since 2003. Her footwork has always been a weakness (even when she was fast.) I saw a lot of "come ons" and Serena looked pissed when she lost. Her serving wasn't awful. She still had 4 aces and was at 56% first serves. Granted, it's not what she had been serving, but it wasn't like she was serving at 40% and 90MPH.

Serena Willaims: Slowest First serve at 128 kmh = 79.5 mph......
:rolleyes:

DOUBLEFIST
Jan 22nd, 2008, 04:54 AM
IMO you lost all credibility when you said Serena was barely a better mover than Vaidisova.

Exactly. Which is why he's sooo desperately trying to troll bait me with ludicrous assertions. Everybody knows Serena's serving today was atypical- especially her pace. To ignore that is simply..., well, you said it. Incredible. :lol:

Bruno71
Jan 22nd, 2008, 05:06 AM
While i agree her "dominance" is often alittle too much (IMO... as she had a great 1.5 years, and spotty results elsewhere, whereas Venus, Davenport, Hingis, are viewed as being far lesser players when they were on the top for much longer than her challenging for titles) however, you're analysis of the match is just bad...

Her movement was horrid, and she served her first serve in the 1rst set at 87 mph...... Her mind was def elsewhere...Jelena played a solid match....but not anymore solid than she has in the past.. nothing special, nothing new....as I said Serena let Jelena see the finish line and then when she tried to come back, Jelena slammed the door...

In the past, she had a 2-2 record against Serena.

They showed a bit of the AO 4R match between the 2 of them during the telecast. I maintain that while JJ may have been a little flat compared to her recent form, Serena won that match on GREAT defense to offense play. Her movement, to my eyes, looked spectacular, and she sent every single shot back with interest. That Serena will beat Jelena 9 out of 10 times. The Serena we saw today, the one with poor footwork and a droopy attitude, will lose to Jelena 9 out of 10 times.

Tennisstar86
Jan 22nd, 2008, 05:11 AM
In the past, she had a 2-2 record against Serena.

They showed a bit of the AO 4R match between the 2 of them during the telecast. I maintain that while JJ may have been a little flat compared to her recent form, Serena won that match on GREAT defense to offense play. Her movement, to my eyes, looked spectacular, and she sent every single shot back with interest. That Serena will beat Jelena 9 out of 10 times. The Serena we saw today, the one with poor footwork and a droopy attitude, will lose to Jelena 9 out of 10 times.

Exactly... i didnt really watch AO last year...and didnt realize how intense Serena was there.... The replay they showed.... Just wow.... i definately did not see that serena all rest of 07 or have not seen her in 08....even though shes lost the weight....

DOUBLEFIST
Jan 22nd, 2008, 05:11 AM
...That Serena will beat Jelena 9 out of 10 times. The Serena we saw today, the one with poor footwork and a droopy attitude, will lose to Jelena 9 out of 10 times.

Agreed. Absolutely agreed.

starin
Jan 22nd, 2008, 05:17 AM
In the past, she had a 2-2 record against Serena.

They showed a bit of the AO 4R match between the 2 of them during the telecast. I maintain that while JJ may have been a little flat compared to her recent form, Serena won that match on GREAT defense to offense play. Her movement, to my eyes, looked spectacular, and she sent every single shot back with interest. That Serena will beat Jelena 9 out of 10 times. The Serena we saw today, the one with poor footwork and a droopy attitude, will lose to Jelena 9 out of 10 times.

hmm.. I kind of disagree. The Serena that serves avg. 1st serve at 101 mph and avg. 2nd serve at 81 mph (short in the box) will lose to Jankovic 10/10.

The Serena who has a serve will beat this Jankovic (the one that played today) 10/10

Serena that is serving okay with poor footwork and droopy attitude will lose to Jankovic of first 3/4 of last year 9/10.

Serena that is playing well will beat Jankovic 9/10.
IMO Jelena played poorly and was lucky to catch Serena on an extremely off day. I remember Jankovic beating Serena in LA and Serena played well (not great but well) and Jankovic played great there and won in straigh sets pretty comfortably. Today she caught a break.

mboyle
Jan 22nd, 2008, 05:54 AM
Exactly. Which is why he's sooo desperately trying to troll bait me with ludicrous assertions. Everybody knows Serena's serving today was atypical- especially her pace. To ignore that is simply..., well, you said it. Incredible. :lol:

I must admit I didn't start watching until 3-1 second set. I take it her serve was really off in the first set, but for those three service games I saw her, she wasn't serving badly. Jelena was just returning well.