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Venus+Serena#1fan
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:12 AM
Considering their games at their Best* who would emerge a winner? why?

Forehand_Volley
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:13 AM
Let me guess.

Venus and Serena Williams.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:14 AM
Dementieva, Serena, Henin

The Daviator
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:19 AM
Probably Pierce, from that list I'd say Serena, just look at her at the US Open in 2002, just unplayable :worship:

So Disrespectful
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:24 AM
I'm glad someone said Pierce, because at her best no has a chance to even compete with her. It didn't happen too often, but when it did, it was magic.

danieln1
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Pierce and Lindsay

Sir Stefwhit
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:34 AM
I agree with giving Pierce the nod for being unbeatable at her best.

The thing about Serena and Justine is that they're capable of calling on their best when it counts the most. Serena at her best takes down everyone on that list (at their best) in straight sets.

Davenport plays closes to her best more often than anyone else on the list.

I think of all the players listed, as a Serena fan, the player that would worry me the most (at their best,) would be Venus.

iPatty
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:40 AM
As much as all of the idiots on here will say Serena, I will say Venus.

Her strokes and serve pack more of a punch, her volleys and transition game are so much better, and she is so much more athletic and graceful with her movement.

supergrunt
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Well Serena did beat Justine playing her best at Miami... and I've never seen Serena play her best and lose so.. Serena. :D

Wiggly
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Indeed, Pierce at her best is killing everyone in straights.

Pheobo
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Where's Pierce? She's scarier than anyone when she's at her best, imo.

Venus+Serena#1fan
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:50 AM
I say Serena at her peak. I was re watching her 02 Italian open Final match against Justine, her FH was so accurate and powerful, the bh as well, serve, speed, shotmaking etc; the winners just awesome.

Forehand_Volley
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:52 AM
I think on any given day, most of the top 10 that play their best can beat anyone else. However, its the H-2-H over a period of time which is the best indicator of who was the best player.

There is no possible way to gauge two players at their best during one match unless they both hit an extreme amount of winners and almost zero unforced errors. Because someone has to lose the match, fans of the losing opponent will always say that their fav wasn't playing their best. Its an excuse used widely in this forum to explain-away losses.

There is no single gauge for mental toughness, which is the ultimate reason why players win, even when two players are at their best or worst battling. Its why players like Henin, Serena and Venus can win championships when they aren't in their best form. Its about confidence during critical moments in matches that make you a champion.

Venus+Serena#1fan
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:54 AM
Yeah I'll add Pierce too though I think if someone like a Serena or Venus really played their best they could help defend against some of her winners and be more aggressive from a defensive position. They'd be evenly matched in all categories but Speed and defense would go to the sisters by alot.

*nvm i dont know how to edit the poll!

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:58 AM
I'll never perfectly understand "best".

Is a player's "best", their greatest point, set, or match? Or how about their greatest tournament? Or their greatest season? Or their peak five years? Or their best practice session?

Sure, we can say Mary Pierce's best is better than everyone else's, but she's actually played incredible tennis only a handful of times throughout her long career. Sharapova's "best" match was probably the Wimbledon '04 final, but that only happened one single time.

supergrunt
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:58 AM
Pierce... :rolleyes:

Sir Stefwhit
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:58 AM
As much as all of the idiots on here will say Serena, I will say Venus.

Her strokes and serve pack more of a punch, her volleys and transition game are so much better, and she is so much more athletic and graceful with her movement.

Why is it idiotic to pick Serena, not just over Venus, but over everyone on this list? If you've been paying attention over the last 10 years Serena's proved it more than once, that when she's on she's a major presence to contend with. There's no right or wrong answers because it's all subjective, but picking Serena isn't a bad pick at all. A case can be made for pretty much anyone on the list so none of the choices would be idiotic IMO. A good example of a moronic pick would be picking a second rate player like Patty, but no one would be crazy enough to even bring her up so never mind.

Back to Venus. Comparing her to Serena at her best:
Serve: Serena
Backhand: Tie
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety (slice, dropshots, lobs): Serena
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

It would be close but I still say Serena.

brent-o
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:59 AM
I'm glad someone said Pierce, because at her best no has a chance to even compete with her. It didn't happen too often, but when it did, it was magic.

I agree, I immediately thought Pierce when I saw the thread title. She might not be one of the most decorated of the Grand Slam Champions, but she is certainly hard to beat when she's playing her best.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:00 AM
I say Serena at her peak. I was re watching her 02 Italian open Final match against Justine, her FH was so accurate and powerful, the bh as well, serve, speed, shotmaking etc; the winners just awesome.

This is an absolutely wretched example for many reasons. You're trying to prove that Serena, at her best, is better than everyone else. So, what you do is pick a 7-6 6-4 match against Henin, who hadn't won a GS or reached #1 in the world, in a tough two-set match.

If you're in favour of Serena, why not go for a 6-1 6-2 drubbing of Sharapova at the Australian Open final this year - Serena, clearly unfit, beating someone who was pretty much at her six-month peak, or so.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:03 AM
Why is it idiotic to pick Serena, not just over Venus, but over everyone on this list? If you've been paying attention over the last 10 years Serena's proved it more than once, that when she's on she's a major presence to contend with. There's no right or wrong answers because it's all subjective, but picking Serena isn't a bad pick at all. A case can be made for pretty much anyone on the list so none of the choices would be idiotic IMO. A good example of a moronic pick would be picking a second rate player like Patty, but no one would be crazy enough to even bring her up so never mind.

Back to Venus. Comparing her to Serena at her best:
Serve: Serena
Backhand: Tie
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety (slice, dropshots, lobs): Serena
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

It would be close but I still say Serena.

Mental fortitude is sort of random. I mean, in Serena's peak year, she lost third sets that went to the limit against Rubin, Schnyder, and Henin. Venus, on the other hand, defeated Hingis in two matches, both three sets and in GS.

iPatty
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:04 AM
Why is it idiotic to pick Serena, not just over Venus, but over everyone on this list? If you've been paying attention over the last 10 years Serena's proved it more than once, that when she's on she's a major presence to contend with. There's no right or wrong answers because it's all subjective, but picking Serena isn't a bad pick at all. A case can be made for pretty much anyone on the list so none of the choices would be idiotic IMO. A good example of a moronic pick would be picking a second rate player like Patty, but no one would be crazy enough to even bring her up so never mind.

Back to Venus. Comparing her to Serena at her best:
Serve: Serena
Backhand: Tie
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety (slice, dropshots, lobs): Serena
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

It would be close but I still say Serena.

Why would you bring Patty into this? I don't understand. Typical from a Serena fan, though.

How I see it:

First Serve: Venus
Second Serve: Serena
Backhand: Venus
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety: Venus (how could you pick Serena? her slices are awful)
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

Forehand_Volley
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:10 AM
If you're in favour of Serena, why not go for a 6-1 6-2 drubbing of Sharapova at the Australian Open final this year - Serena, clearly unfit, beating someone who was pretty much at her six-month peak, or so.
It didn't take a tennis expert to see that Maria serving at under 100 mph first serves wasn't in some way hampered and not playing her best tennis in the 2007 Australian Open final. Serena's fans turned that final into Serena beating Maria at Maria's best and that Serena would dominate the tour.

Somehow it was okay to use injury as an excuse for Serena's losses and not Maria's by Serena's fans. Seemed pretty shady and illogical to me.

Serena was not playing her best tennis at the Australian Open in 2007, nor was Maria Sharapova. Serena picked up on Maria's obvious weakness in the 2007 AO finals, such as Henin did Serena in the quarterfinals of the 2007 Wimbledon championships.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:10 AM
Why would you bring Patty into this? I don't understand. Typical from a Serena fan, though.

How I see it:

First Serve: Venus
Second Serve: Serena
Backhand: Venus
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety: Venus (how could you pick Serena? her slices are awful)
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

I don't think either of you are correct in examining the Williams' games. Are we deciding who has the better 'overall' "best" in terms of net, technique, groundstrokes, serves, etc?

Variety? I mean, it can go either way. Serena has a way better lop and dropshot, and Venus' slices aren't that great, either. In favour of Serena, I'd recommend her '03 Wimbledon win over Henin, and for Venus, the '00 US Open win of Hingis. But, it is still too close.

Venus' first serve...It is definitely faster than Serena's, but Serena's can hit more aces.

Sir Stefwhit
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:12 AM
I think on any given day, most of the top 10 that play their best can beat anyone else. However, its the H-2-H over a period of time which is the best indicator of who was the best player.

There is no possible way to gauge two players at their best during one match unless they both hit an extreme amount of winners and almost zero unforced errors. Because someone has to lose the match, fans of the losing opponent will always say that their fav wasn't playing their best. Its an excuse used widely in this forum to explain-away losses.

There is no single gauge for mental toughness, which is the ultimate reason why players win, even when two players are at their best or worst battling.

You're right and that's why it's totally subjective, but that's also why it's fun to discuss as well. You make a case for a player using H2H's, certain matches where player "x" was on, and any other reasoning you have to support your answer. It's like I said there really isn't a right or wrong answer.

If you flip the question and ask which player can beat you at her worse I think you get an even more interest debate going. I would probably pick Venus for that, because I've seen her play some awful tennis with mountains of errors and still find some miraculous way to win. To win when you're suckin' ass is a lot more impressive than winning while playing your best.

Of the players listed I think Davenport does the best job of being able to be close to her best when she's playing someone at their best. I can think of a few classics against Venus, Serena, Hingis,and Justine where that was the case.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:13 AM
It didn't take a tennis expert to see that Maria serving at under 100 mph first serves wasn't in some way hampered and not playing her best tennis in the 2007 Australian Open final. Serena's fans turned that final into Serena beating Maria at Maria's best and that Serena would dominate the tour.

Somehow it was okay to use injury as an excuse for Serena's losses and not Maria's by Serena's fans. Seemed pretty shady and illogical to me.

Serena was not playing her best tennis at the Australian Open in 2007, nor was Maria Sharapova. Serena picked up on Maria's obvious weakness in the 2007 AO finals, such as Henin did Serena in the quarterfinals of the 2007 Wimbledon championships.

It would be very difficult to prove that Sharapova was not healthy during that final seeing as she beat Clijsters in straight sets the round before, and I believe a top ten player the round before that.

Sharapova's serves were under 100 MPH because she was feeling extremely pressured that Serena crushed them in the opening games.

Henin in the quarterfinals of Wimbledon is a totally different story, mainly because Serena has a sprained thumb that insanely effected her backhand. She had no backhand. The US Open is a better example.

allhingis
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:14 AM
Martina Hingis at her best beat both Williams sister at the Australian Open 2001, so she´s pretty unbeatable at her best, circa 1997

Uranium
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:14 AM
I say Serena at her peak. I was re watching her 02 Italian open Final match against Justine, her FH was so accurate and powerful, the bh as well, serve, speed, shotmaking etc; the winners just awesome.

Venus and your sig,they have 6 GS doubles titles:D

Sir Stefwhit
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:15 AM
Why would you bring Patty into this? I don't understand. Typical from a Serena fan, though.


Why does someone have to be an idiot for just picking Serena? I don't understand. Typical from a Serena hater, though.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:18 AM
Martina Hingis at her best beat both Williams sister at the Australian Open 2001, so she´s pretty unbeatable at her best, circa 1997

This is where I just don't understand some peoples' think of thinking. Venus, Davenport, Serena, Capriati, Seles Sharapova, Graf, and every other power player have dominated Hingis. Yes, none of them came in '97, but they began the year after, and her wins against the powerplayers were getting fewer and further between. The '01 Australian Open matches were great examples, especially against Serena, but she practically revamped her fitness for that tournament. And, Venus' tennis in the next round was nothing short of astonishingly horrid.

Just think about it. Hingis serves her "best" serve, maybe in the high 90s, and Venus, Serena, Sharapova, and Davenport would murder it.

Forehand_Volley
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:18 AM
It would be very difficult to prove that Sharapova was not healthy during that final seeing as she beat Clijsters in straight sets the round before, and I believe a top ten player the round before that.

Sharapova's serves were under 100 MPH because she was feeling extremely pressured that Serena crushed them in the opening games.
Henin in the quarterfinals of Wimbledon is a totally different story, mainly because Serena has a sprained thumb that insanely effected her backhand. She had no backhand. The US Open is a better example.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Again, the double standards are futile.

You can't excuse-away S. Williams "thumb" loss at Wimbledon without identifying the reason why Sharapova's shoulder injury might have affected her play in the AO finals.

the jamierbelyea
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:20 AM
I agree with Mary Pierce, but it's so rare for that to happen.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:21 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Again, the double standards are futile.

You can't excuse-away S. Williams "thumb" loss at Wimbledon without identifying the reason why Sharapova's shoulder injury might have affected her play in the AO finals.

One, Maria didn't complain about her shoulder. Mainly because there was no injury - HELLO! She just beat Clijsters 6-4 6-2 the round earlier. She was perfectly fine!

Serena's thumb was taped up, and during the match, it wasn't like she miraculously smacked winners off her backhand!

cellophane
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:22 AM
It would be very difficult to prove that Sharapova was not healthy during that final seeing as she beat Clijsters in straight sets the round before, and I believe a top ten player the round before that.

Sharapova's serves were under 100 MPH because she was feeling extremely pressured that Serena crushed them in the opening games.


Not this BS AGAIN?????????? :yawn: Kim was AWFUL in that match, stop bringing it up already as proof of anything.

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:24 AM
Not this BS AGAIN?????????? :yawn: Kim was AWFUL in that match, stop bringing it up already.

Okay, then how about the match before that. Or the three before that.

allhingis
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:24 AM
This is where I just don't understand some peoples' think of thinking. Venus, Davenport, Serena, Capriati, Seles Sharapova, Graf, and every other power player have dominated Hingis. Yes, none of them came in '97, but they began the year after, and her wins against the powerplayers were getting fewer and further between. The '01 Australian Open matches were great examples, especially against Serena, but she practically revamped her fitness for that tournament. And, Venus' tennis in the next round was nothing short of astonishingly horrid.

Just think about it. Hingis serves her "best" serve, maybe in the high 90s, and Venus, Serena, Sharapova, and Davenport would murder it.

Venus: Martina has a better H2H record
Davenport: Hingis won a lot of important matches against her
Capriati: the same
Seles: didn´t understand why you brought her to this

None of the players you mentioned dominated Hingis, since she had wins against all of them, and some pretty humiliating (AO 2001- 6-1 6-1 against Venus)

Sir Stefwhit
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:25 AM
How I see it:

First Serve: Venus
Second Serve: Serena
Backhand: Venus
Forehand: Serena
Movement: Venus
Transition game: Venus
Variety: Venus (how could you pick Serena? her slices are awful)
Net: Venus
Technique: Serena
Mental Fortitude: Serena

That's pretty reasonable. With regards to variety, I'm equally confused as to how you could pick Venus over Serena. Neither one is anything like Hingis, Mauresmo, or Justine, but Serena is light years ahead of Venus in that department. Venus hits hard deep and flat. Serena does the same and regularly incorporates spin, angles, and yes, slice. Ever since 2004 when Serena came back from her knee surgery you could tell she was a lot more confident with her slice. And since then it's been a regular go to shot of hers. Seriously, watch her matches and you'll see what I mean.

I do agree that her transition game isn't great and she sometimes comes to net on bluffs, but if she's playing at her best she's only coming to net put away the winner so that wouldn't matter much.

Truth be told, watching the top women go ahead to ahead while both being at their best is what it's all about. I like the game better today, but the rivalries in the old days were a lot more exciting. And the top players tended to bring the best out of each more often than they seem to do now of days. Hopefully we get better matches with both players playing to the best of their abilities.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:36 AM
This is where I just don't understand some peoples' think of thinking. Venus, Davenport, Serena, Capriati, Seles Sharapova, Graf, and every other power player have dominated Hingis. Yes, none of them came in '97, but they began the year after, and her wins against the powerplayers were getting fewer and further between. The '01 Australian Open matches were great examples, especially against Serena, but she practically revamped her fitness for that tournament. And, Venus' tennis in the next round was nothing short of astonishingly horrid.

Just think about it. Hingis serves her "best" serve, maybe in the high 90s, and Venus, Serena, Sharapova, and Davenport would murder it.

in that time period(late 90's realy 2000's)i think hingis's best first serve was a little higher than the high 90's sure thats where is was most of the time but i think it was more around 101 to 103..but in hingis' recent comeback she notched a few serves at 111 or 112 but i can only think of two times and i could probably count all of the times she exceeded 110 on one hand.

iPatty
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:37 AM
Why does someone have to be an idiot for just picking Serena? I don't understand. Typical from a Serena hater, though.

Is that an attempt to be clever? Try again. :o

You "try" to be funny and make fun of me instead of addressing why you brought Patty into a thread that has nothing at all to do with her?

I won't lie, I do hate Serena. But I also hate Venus. Yet I recognize that Venus at her best is better than Serena at her best.

iPatty
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:39 AM
That's pretty reasonable. With regards to variety, I'm equally confused as to how you could pick Venus over Serena. Neither one is anything like Hingis, Mauresmo, or Justine, but Serena is light years ahead of Venus in that department. Venus hits hard deep and flat. Serena does the same and regularly incorporates spin, angles, and yes, slice. Ever since 2004 when Serena came back from her knee surgery you could tell she was a lot more confident with her slice. And since then it's been a regular go to shot of hers. Seriously, watch her matches and you'll see what I mean.

I do agree that her transition game isn't great and she sometimes comes to net on bluffs, but if she's playing at her best she's only coming to net put away the winner so that wouldn't matter much.

Truth be told, watching the top women go ahead to ahead while both being at their best is what it's all about. I like the game better today, but the rivalries in the old days were a lot more exciting. And the top players tended to bring the best out of each more often than they seem to do now of days. Hopefully we get better matches with both players playing to the best of their abilities.

I agree Serena has more variety as far as top spin goes, but her spin doesn't kick off the court. That's why she played so well in the Melbourne final. She flattened out her shots and they went in. Too often she just hits these little puff forehands that are supposed to have top spin. So, she tries to hit top spin, she just isn't very effective at it. I don't count that as variety. :shrug:

Geisha
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Venus: Martina has a better H2H record
Davenport: Hingis won a lot of important matches against her
Capriati: the same
Seles: didn´t understand why you brought her to this

None of the players you mentioned dominated Hingis, since she had wins against all of them, and some pretty humiliating (AO 2001- 6-1 6-1 against Venus)

All of the players mentioned had a difficult time with Hingis at the beginning. Venus lost their first three matches in her first full year on Tour and won most of their final matches. Same with Lindsay. Hingis won the first five against Jennifer, then lost the next four.

What I'm trying to say is that the finesse game Hingis posessed only lasts so long. Unfortunately, power is greater than finesse, and once the power players learned how to play her, they regularly won.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:48 AM
That's pretty reasonable. With regards to variety, I'm equally confused as to how you could pick Venus over Serena. Neither one is anything like Hingis, Mauresmo, or Justine, but Serena is light years ahead of Venus in that department. Venus hits hard deep and flat. Serena does the same and regularly incorporates spin, angles, and yes, slice. Ever since 2004 when Serena came back from her knee surgery you could tell she was a lot more confident with her slice. And since then it's been a regular go to shot of hers. Seriously, watch her matches and you'll see what I mean.
I do agree that her transition game isn't great and she sometimes comes to net on bluffs, but if she's playing at her best she's only coming to net put away the winner so that wouldn't matter much.

Truth be told, watching the top women go ahead to ahead while both being at their best is what it's all about. I like the game better today, but the rivalries in the old days were a lot more exciting. And the top players tended to bring the best out of each more often than they seem to do now of days. Hopefully we get better matches with both players playing to the best of their abilities.

OK, if I was to watch this years wimbledon QF against Henin, i definatley think it wasnt apart of her arsenal. Her slices sat up so bad and gave Henin plenty of time for her big swings. And for anyone who blames serena's terrible slices on her thumb, the french open QF was the same stuff except worse because it was on clay.

But as for the variety I think its pretty much evan between Venus and Serena.

Dropshot:equal in ability, but serena overuses it slightly
Slice:Serena now that she has had to use it so much because of her thumb injury.
topspin and short angles:serena, venus has a flatter game
Net: Venus definately has the edge over serena there

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:48 AM
This is an absolutely wretched example for many reasons. You're trying to prove that Serena, at her best, is better than everyone else. So, what you do is pick a 7-6 6-4 match against Henin, who hadn't won a GS or reached #1 in the world, in a tough two-set match.

If you're in favour of Serena, why not go for a 6-1 6-2 drubbing of Sharapova at the Australian Open final this year - Serena, clearly unfit, beating someone who was pretty much at her six-month peak, or so.
Well at Venus's peak, she lost a match 1-6 1-6 (in a semi of a slam!) and lost first round of a slam...in straight sets.

Serena > Venus

And I'm more of a fan of the ladder.

Also Serena vs. Sharapova is too easy because there is not a single thing Sharapova can do better than Serena (or Venus). She relies on her consistency and their inconsistency, if thats not there, lights out.

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:50 AM
Also, Venus can't lob, her slice is better now due to her net game and Serena's dropshots are horrible.

The only thing that really separates the two when all goes well is the second serve. Because even when people say she was at her best, she still averaged 5 or 6 doubles per match (sometimes even in the double digits). While Serena could go through matches with 10 aces, and 0-2 double faults.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:51 AM
All of the players mentioned had a difficult time with Hingis at the beginning. Venus lost their first three matches in her first full year on Tour and won most of their final matches. Same with Lindsay. Hingis won the first five against Jennifer, then lost the next four.

What I'm trying to say is that the finesse game Hingis posessed only lasts so long. Unfortunately, power is greater than finesse, and once the power players learned how to play her, they regularly won.

I definely agree.
I think everyone just got used to Hingis' game and learned how to handle it by overpowering her if they could(and not to many people could do it consistantly).

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:53 AM
has Venus ever had a match with zero double faults?

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Is that an attempt to be clever? Try again. :o

You "try" to be funny and make fun of me instead of addressing why you brought Patty into a thread that has nothing at all to do with her?

I won't lie, I do hate Serena. But I also hate Venus. Yet I recognize that Venus at her best is better than Serena at her best.


I can understand how you can hate serena(ex. her remarks after the 2007 US Open QF lol "lucky shots" and saying hingis didnt have proper education in a 99 us open interview)

but why can you hate venus??? sure she was outspoken in her early years of her career but how could you now??

Dunlop1
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:05 AM
Threads like this are stupid. I can easily say Justine is unbeatable at her best since she put the smackdown on Serena (the supposed best) 3 times in a row on the highest stages and on 3 different surfaces including 2 surfaces that should favour Serena (plus she beat her sister on that Surface as well who some are saying is the best).

But tards will give excuses about peak this and injury that :yawn:

First of all, what is your criteria for measuring one's best?

And isn't it LAME to say Pierce's best trumps all when she supposedly plays her best once a millenium? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say she was 'tree-ing' on those days, as opposed to playing her best?

The short answer is there is no person who is unbeatable at their best. Serena never had a year where she didn't lose a match. Even when she was winning consecutive slams. Neither did Venus at consecutive slam finals. Neither did Justine with consecutive finals last year, and 2 out of 3 slams this year. They have all lost.

NOONE is unbeatable at their best.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:14 AM
I think Venus is tough at her best.

Who could forget the 2005 Wimbledon SF where she and Maria Sharapova pretty much raised the bar as far as quality. Venus i guess played about as close to her best as it gets and Maria definately wasnt playing badly. Venus just would cover like 3 winners in one rally and then hit a winner herself. She also used the net and her serve to put pressure on the Sharapova game. I think that thats one of the highest quality matches of all time.And when i say highest quality matches of all time i mean both players are playing well.

Rivals of this match would have to be Serena vs Monica Toronto 2001 SF and Serena vs Capriati 2002 YEC.

Venus+Serena#1fan
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:16 AM
This is an absolutely wretched example for many reasons. You're trying to prove that Serena, at her best, is better than everyone else. So, what you do is pick a 7-6 6-4 match against Henin, who hadn't won a GS or reached #1 in the world, in a tough two-set match.

If you're in favour of Serena, why not go for a 6-1 6-2 drubbing of Sharapova at the Australian Open (http://wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=324505&page=2#) final this year - Serena, clearly unfit, beating someone who was pretty much at her six-month peak, or so.

Umm no need to be so angry at the example..... I wasn't saying that Serena's level in the 7-6 6-4 defeat of Justine in Rome 02 was her "best", but just recently watching that match from her dominant phase reminded me of the tennis she is capable of playing (at times in that match).

And yes in Oz final this year she played some of her best ever, in that level i would say she is unbeatable.

And I don't think threads like this are stupid. They can be fun to discuss in as long as people don't act like angry baboons.

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:18 AM
has Venus ever had a match with zero double faults?
Its happened before, but rarely. However, in all fairness, very few players can go through a match without double faulting

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:21 AM
Its happened before, but rarely. However, in all fairness, very few players can go through a match without double faulting

well whenever she did it it must have been a big deal.

Ive always wondered why she never tried to learn how to hit more of a kick serve like serena. Her slice second serve has little margin for error and sits up if she doesnt hit it hard.

If venus wanted to, would it be possible for her to develop a kick serve in the offseason??

Aryman3
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:25 AM
Only Pierce

HeninFan_2008
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:25 AM
Justine at her best is unbeatable.

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:31 AM
Umm no need to be so angry at the example..... I wasn't saying that Serena's level in the 7-6 6-4 defeat of Justine in Rome 02 was her "best", but just recently watching that match from her dominant phase reminded me of the tennis she is capable of playing (at times in that match).

And yes in Oz final this year she played some of her best ever, in that level i would say she is unbeatable.

And I don't think threads like this are stupid. They can be fun to discuss in as long as people don't act like angry baboons.
The problem is that Serena's game can be nullified. I seriously think she wouldn't be able to beat a peak Steffi Graf, simply because Graf can nullify her game, much like Federer does to most everyone.

Serena relies on pace and speed, however with a heavy slice it throws her balance off. Couple that with playing an athletic equal, you're in trouble.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:33 AM
Alot of people say Pierce...
Does anyone know of a match i could watch to prove it???
and if ur awesome u'd give me the link to it but u dont have to

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:35 AM
well whenever she did it it must have been a big deal.

Ive always wondered why she never tried to learn how to hit more of a kick serve like serena. Her slice second serve has little margin for error and sits up if she doesnt hit it hard.

If venus wanted to, would it be possible for her to develop a kick serve in the offseason??
Any 4.0+ player knows how to hit a proper kick serve. Venus has been having second serve issues her whole career - she herself said that its the shot she needs to improve most when she was 10. TEN! Its all mental. I'm guessing it might have stemmed from her trying to hit her first serve really hard, and losing a bit of confidence and just trying to get it in.

She can hit kick serves, she does occasionally - she just hits poor ones. I just wish that when she's losing points on her second serve because it goes to the same spot all the time anyway, she'd just hit a kick one. It might be 74 MPH, but its better than nothing.

You saw her do that against Henin actually.

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Alot of people say Pierce...
Does anyone know of a match i could watch to prove it???
and if ur awesome u'd give me the link to it but u dont have to
Hilton Head 2000. I believe she beat Seles and Sanchez-Vicario losing a total of 4 or 5 games.

She also beat Serena 1 and 2 that year I believe.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:40 AM
Any 4.0+ player knows how to hit a proper kick serve. Venus has been having second serve issues her whole career - she herself said that its the shot she needs to improve most when she was 10. TEN! Its all mental. I'm guessing it might have stemmed from her trying to hit her first serve really hard, and losing a bit of confidence and just trying to get it in.

She can hit kick serves, she does occasionally - she just hits poor ones. I just wish that when she's losing points on her second serve because it goes to the same spot all the time anyway, she'd just hit a kick one. It might be 74 MPH, but its better than nothing.

You saw her do that against Henin actually.

In what match??? the US Open this year???

I remember Venus hit a few serves that looked like they kicked against Bartoli in the wimbledon final...they look aiight

HeninFan_2008
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:40 AM
Juju needs to work on her kick serve.

sgsox
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Juju needs to work on her kick serve.

she doesnt really have one either...but her second serve is a little better than Venus's though.

CJ07
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:55 AM
In what match??? the US Open this year???

I remember Venus hit a few serves that looked like they kicked against Bartoli in the wimbledon final...they look aiight
I can't remember when, but basically she was losing point after point, and then she finally hit a kick serve that suprised Henin and caused her to miss the return. I remember because they showed the MPH at 74, trying to highlight Venus's issue.

This also happened against Serena '03 OZ when after getting her second serve killed, she finally hit a kick serve. However, Serena was ready for it and forced an error anyway.

And you're confusing a kick serve with a topspin serve. She does have one of those, which when executed isn't too bad. In reality, only a handful of women players hit true kick serves. Serena, Molik, Stosur, and Davenport are to name a few.

starin
Nov 25th, 2007, 03:56 AM
I agree Serena has more variety as far as top spin goes, but her spin doesn't kick off the court. That's why she played so well in the Melbourne final. She flattened out her shots and they went in. Too often she just hits these little puff forehands that are supposed to have top spin. So, she tries to hit top spin, she just isn't very effective at it. I don't count that as variety. :shrug:

:worship:
Thank you. Gawd i was so tired of watching Serena hit these "top spin" shots that barely land past the service line. And just sit up perfectly to be smacked away. All year since after Miami she's been doing that. I mean she was getting into extended rallies with Molik (who is slow as hell and was still able to track down the majority of Serena's shots) and other clay court type players who hit their shots with nothing on them. HOWEVER, she didn't use to play like that. She used to get much more depth and hit the ball much flatter than she is now. Hopefully this is just a phase to just get control over strokes again. Something changed after Miami..maybe just injuries and what not.

And you call someone an idiot for picking Serena over Venus and then you get all upset when they take a shot at you. Grow up. If you're going to insult someone at least have the stones to take what they throw back at you instead of acting all high and mighty as if you weren't the first one to throw mud.

starin
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:02 AM
Juju needs to work on her kick serve.

Why? her slice 2nd serve is very effective.
IMO its what's been winning her matches. Both Serena and Venus could barely return it with anything on it.

Pierce and Sprem are pretty incredible when they are playing well. Also, Venus too.

But I'm biased my favorite matches have been: Venus def. Sprem Berlin SF 2004
Venus def. Pierce Wimbledon 2005 2nd set.

Venus barely survived those matches and Pierce in particular wasn't playing her absolute best (few bad errors at crucial times).

Serenidad.
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:28 AM
Pierce is scary. ;(

She could just sit there and bang and bang. From return of the first serve onward you were just running around until she went for the winner.

HeninFan_2008
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:32 AM
If Pierce was soooo scary, why only 2 slams? She was a mental midget.

égalité
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:35 AM
I hate these "best" questions. We don't know and will never know what anyone's "best" is.

But anyway, Mary Pierce. Let's be serious.

fioredeliberi
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:42 AM
Justine at her best will beat anybody at her best.
Obvious.

justine schnyder
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:46 AM
Frim what we know now I think it's Henin, WS,Davenport and Pierce too

-VSR-
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:47 AM
Venus.

Forehand_Volley
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:58 AM
If Pierce was soooo scary, why only 2 slams? She was a mental midget.
Mary was a physical midget, if you will. Her body couldn't withstand the pounding she put on the tennis ball.

If Mary had been physically gifted to withstand the punishment it took, she would have won more grand slam events.

If you saw the 1994 French Open semifinals when Mary Pierce walloped then #1 Steffi Graf (seven-time French Open Champion) 6-2, 6-2, you would understand why Mary was so scary. Mary overpowered Graf shot-for-shot and in a way that no one had previously been able to accomplish against Graf. Not even Monica Seles.

Mary exhibited raw power that would make her competitive in any generation of women's tennis, past, present or future. She controlled the tempo of her matches with her odd ticks (straightening her necklace, playing with her french ponytail) before her service motions. And while some people and players might have been annoyed by her ability to control the tempo of matches, it was Mary, full of grace, the Diva, that always shined through.

venus_rulez
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:02 AM
Why are people saying Pierce is unbeatable at her best? The second set of the 05 Wimbledon Quarter final, she didn't get broken at all in the second set, was smacking winners everywhere, and despite 5 set points she still lost? Why? Because she was playing someone who could not only retrieve her shots, but with interest.

I think it's more surface specific then anything. Serena probably beats everyone at their best on a hardcourt, Henin on clay, and Venus on grass.

Whichever poster said that Venus could still probably beat you at her worst, is probably correct. It's rare, even on her worst days to see her get steamrolled. For all the stinkers she's had (I'm thinking her Roland Garros losses) most have still been highly competitive or she had real looks to get back in the match.

OsloErik
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:13 AM
Venus, Mary Pierce, Svetlana Kuznetsova...

I've seen them all play points, games, sets, and not quite matches, but close to it, where their opponent could do absolutely nothing.

I'd also contend that if you give Navratilova and Graf modern equipment and training, and their peak abilities, they would roll over pretty much everyone. Navratilova hit her fastest ever serve in a mixed doubles match in 2003. That's what the equipment can do.

Henpova
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:43 AM
Well Serena did beat Justine playing her best at Miami... and I've never seen Serena play her best and lose so.. Serena. :D

True Juju was playing at her best till she rolled her ankle. Its hard to keep play at your best when you do that. Lucky it was not to bad, but I am sure it F her game up.

@Sweet Cleopatra
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:54 AM
good morning ,
I think they all ( exept Ivanovic ) reached top 1 cause they were unbeatable at their best , and now Henin's unbeatable ,

mckyle.
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:56 AM
Let me guess.

Venus and Serena Williams.

duh. didn't you know?

the answer to everything is Serena?

:hearts:

LindsayRulz
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:58 AM
Pierce.

GrafMariaPetraK
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:35 AM
people saying Pierce:tape: :help: :haha: :haha: :spit: :spit:

kittyking
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:51 AM
I don't think Brie will win this one...

skanky~skanketta
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:58 AM
One, Maria didn't complain about her shoulder. Mainly because there was no injury - HELLO! She just beat Clijsters 6-4 6-2 the round earlier. She was perfectly fine!

Serena's thumb was taped up, and during the match, it wasn't like she miraculously smacked winners off her backhand!
um, she beat clijsters cuz clijsters played like utter shit...just like she'd been doing almost all tournament long. not because sharapova was playing outstandingly.

plantman
Nov 25th, 2007, 07:01 AM
I don't think Brie will win this one...

:haha:

hingisGOAT
Nov 25th, 2007, 08:25 AM
All of the players mentioned had a difficult time with Hingis at the beginning. Venus lost their first three matches in her first full year on Tour and won most of their final matches. Same with Lindsay. Hingis won the first five against Jennifer, then lost the next four.

What I'm trying to say is that the finesse game Hingis posessed only lasts so long. Unfortunately, power is greater than finesse, and once the power players learned how to play her, they regularly won.

But Hingis herself was much more of an attacking player early in her career... most of those later losses had as much to do with Martina's regression as her opponents' progression...

cherboy
Nov 25th, 2007, 08:33 AM
Pierce and Lindsay

I LOVE YOU!!!! you steal my words!!! :)
mary and lindsay 4ever!:bounce:

Renalicious
Nov 25th, 2007, 08:50 AM
I'd say Mary (she is very RARELY at her best though), Venus and Serena.

LudwigDvorak
Nov 25th, 2007, 08:55 AM
A lot of players against a lot of other players.

evan2907
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:13 AM
Nobody

Justine, Serena, Venus, Lindsay, Mary already lost at their best.

Zauber
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:14 AM
The whole question as posed is an auximoron.
It assumes the oppenent does not determine the level of play.
No one can play their best against every oppent.
Every oppenent opposes you in a different way affecting your own play in incountable ways.
The whole assumption as often expaused on this board "what happens if a player plays their best is silly".

Watching
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:16 AM
No doubt in my mind it is Serena.
People who say the Venus first serve is better should just look at the US Open ace counts when they were younger. She hit just as many unreturnables as Venus as well.

And people shouldn't compare Henin's Wimb QF against Serena to 07 OZ final. Those performances were lightyears from each other.

@Sweet Cleopatra
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:19 AM
who's Brie you're always speaking about ?

Watching
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:22 AM
Nobody

Justine, Serena, Venus, Lindsay, Mary already lost at their best.

Name a time Serena lost when she played her best. :wavey:

evan2907
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:24 AM
who's Brie you're always speaking about ?

Brie Whitehead. She won only one match in her career and lost many times 0/6.:lol:
http://www.itftennis.com/womens/players/activity.asp?player=100079416

ViennaCalling
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:28 AM
people saying Pierce:tape: :help: :haha: :haha: :spit: :spit:

:rolleyes: I guess you never saw a match with a "In-Form-Mary". :help:

Sean.
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:29 AM
I'm going to be brave and say Ana.

She is inconsistant and cant stay at her best. But 1st Set against Sveta YEC, she was scary nobody would have stood a chance. If she had kept it up!

evan2907
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:34 AM
Name a time Serena lost when she played her best. :wavey:

She lost many times against Capriati, Venus and she was at her best. She was at her best in 2002-2003 when Justine beat her 3 times.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:39 AM
Monica Seles

Nothing to do against her when she is playing her best tennis

égalité
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:44 AM
Name a time Serena lost when she played her best. :wavey:

What a loaded question :weirdo: You can say that about tons of players and blame every loss on them "not playing their best."

Besides, players "not being at their best" can be a result of their opponent. Case in point: 2001 AO QF. Serena made errors because of Hingis, not because of Serena. It's not fair to ride Serena's losses off as her "not being at her best" when her opponents prevent her from playing at her best. And you can say this about anyone. That's why it's a stupid question to begin with.

Dan23
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:53 AM
Pointless discussion really...all those players at their best would beat any opponent since the opponent wouldnt get much of a look in and wouldnt be able to play their best.

What youre really asking is whos best is the best?? ...and the thread turns into a 'vote for your fave' poll

Donny
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:00 AM
What a loaded question :weirdo: You can say that about tons of players and blame every loss on them "not playing their best."

Besides, players "not being at their best" can be a result of their opponent.

Not really. Most semi intelligent people can distinguish playing poorly from being unable to outplay your opponent.

This is why when low ranked players get double bagelled by top ten players, we don't think to ourselves how poorly the other player must've played- we comment on how much better the winner was.

Just because Justine was able to run Venus around the court at the USO doesn't mean Venus wasn't moving well. Just because Serena was capable of returning Venus' first serve doesn't mean Venus wasn't serving well all the times they've played. Just like there's a difference between Serena losing to Bammer and Serena losing to Henin.

It's a subjective analysis, of course, but you're just propping up a strawman here.

Watching
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:20 AM
She lost many times against Capriati, Venus and she was at her best. She was at her best in 2002-2003 when Justine beat her 3 times.

Your quoting a period of time there. Sure Serena played at a high level and played 'her best' level quite a few times in that period, that does not mean that every match in that period should be judged as her best performance though.

Example she had match points against her at AO 03 against Loit I think. Does that mean if Loit had won the match Serena had lost at her best and Loit is a better player? No, because Serena didn't play well then.

Justine and Serena have only played 3 matches where one of them played close to their best: YEC 01 - Serena, Wimbledon 03 - Serena, Miami 07 Justine for the most part of the match.

Mauresmo Fan
Nov 25th, 2007, 01:54 PM
pierce no 1 can touch her at her beat

Ballbasher
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:03 PM
Henin/Serena from the list,but like many others said it's Pierce.

Andy.
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Mary Pierce her ball striking and power is just scary.

buckyohare
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:27 PM
Anyone who can hit an Ace is unbeatable at their best. The moment they fail to produce an Ace is the moment they aren't at their best. But at their best they would hit Aces all match long and are thus unbeatable.

Demska
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Dementieva, Pierce, Justine, Davenport, Ivanovic, Sharapova.

MistyGrey
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:34 PM
Nobody is unbeatable.

But Pierce's best was the greatest display of tennis IMO.

debopero
Nov 25th, 2007, 02:45 PM
She lost many times against Capriati, Venus and she was at her best. She was at her best in 2002-2003 when Justine beat her 3 times.

But she was not playing her best in those matches. The only times Jen beat her is when she made literally 60+ errors and Jen only hit about 8 winners.

égalité
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Not really. Most semi intelligent people can distinguish playing poorly from being unable to outplay your opponent.

This is why when low ranked players get double bagelled by top ten players, we don't think to ourselves how poorly the other player must've played- we comment on how much better the winner was.

Just because Justine was able to run Venus around the court at the USO doesn't mean Venus wasn't moving well. Just because Serena was capable of returning Venus' first serve doesn't mean Venus wasn't serving well all the times they've played. Just like there's a difference between Serena losing to Bammer and Serena losing to Henin.

It's a subjective analysis, of course, but you're just propping up a strawman here.

And most intelligent people can recognize that "your best" depends on your opponent, but maybe you're only semi intelligent :hug:. Something that's a winner against one player might be a set-up for a passing shot by a different opponent. I'm not talking about high-ranked players double-bageling nobodies. I'm talking about top players facing each other. They're not just going to play their games and roll over their opponents. There are going to be things they're unable to do and shots they're unable to make because of their opponents.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:46 PM
an example of Mary Pierce at her best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFbzPNNHWvw

ViennaCalling
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:49 PM
an example of Mary Pierce at her best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFbzPNNHWvw

:drool: I can watch this video every day :hearts:

Henin had no chance on this day - Mary's shots were unbelievable good (and scary :scared: ) :bowdown:

Dave.
Nov 25th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I think at their very best, Mary Pierce or Serena Williams are just unbeatable. But it really doesn't matter because they obviously don't produce their best on a regular basis.

Lindsay Davenport is the most consistent of the players who are capable of beating everyone, and she consistently reaches a certain level every time she steps onto the court, and that is more important.

bie
Nov 25th, 2007, 05:04 PM
H2H Justine Mary 4-1
IMO it really depends on the day: the circumstances as there are the fitness, the weather(rain delays, wind, heath) and the opponent's play.
Everyone can beat anyone in the top 10 for that matter. http://209.85.12.236/4750/155/emo/knipoog.gif

LucasArg
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Serena. Mostly if her serve is on.

Il Primo!
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:13 PM
If Pierce was unbeatable at her best, she'd count much more than 2 slams :yawn:.

Anyways this kind of question can't be solved. But I still think that neitheir Pierce, nor Davenport, nor Ivanovic (:haha: )are in the mix.

GrafMariaPetraK
Nov 25th, 2007, 06:19 PM
:rolleyes: I guess you never saw a match with a "In-Form-Mary". :help:

:lol: yes i have and i stll stand by what ive said:p

VeeReeDavJCap81
Nov 25th, 2007, 07:37 PM
I remember watching a match with Mary Pierce in San Diego in 2005, and the first like 4 or 5 games I've NEVER seen anyone play so scary.

manu32
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:18 PM
serena..clay,hard,grass....

ViennaCalling
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:24 PM
If Pierce was unbeatable at her best, she'd count much more than 2 slams :yawn:.

Anyways this kind of question can't be solved. But I still think that neitheir Pierce, nor Davenport, nor Ivanovic (:haha: )are in the mix.

She was injured too often.

mashamaniac
Nov 25th, 2007, 09:44 PM
I Wonder What Made You Put Ivanovic In There?

Dunlop1
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:02 PM
an example of Mary Pierce at her best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFbzPNNHWvw

I was hoping someone would bring up this example as Mary playing her best.

First of all, Justine was playing like ass this tournament. She couldn't get her serve in and was making a TON of errors. IN her match against Sugiyama (before she faced Pierce) she led 4-0 in the first set, before allowing Ai to win the next SIX GAMES to win the set 6-4.
Do you think Justine of this year would lose a set 4-6 to Sugiyama after being up 4-0???
She couldn't get her serves in all match. SHe played horrendously. Pierce had her own agenda after being drubbed at the RG final by Justine and made an ass off.

Even then Pierce's best could only beat a seriously out of form Justine 6-3, 6-4. That's just one break each set.

Plus Kim was playing some of her best tennis that tournament and all summer long as was Pierce. (I believe they were 1 and 2 in the US Open series standings) We know who eventually won the US Open.

Case closed. No one is unbeatable at their best.

Sure, certain players can put on amazing displays of tennis at their best, but to say their unbeatable is not logical.

The only player I would say is unbeatable at his best is Federer (and even then I have my reservations). Serena, Pierce, Justine, Venus, Davenport etc all need to up their best to be considered unbeatable IMO.

antonella
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Henin by a mile.

No Name Face
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Serena.
Unfortunately we haven't seen that level in a while minus the AO final against sharpie

Tennisstar86
Nov 25th, 2007, 10:33 PM
Venus... her Movement athleticism and 130 mph Bombs cant be matched.....

Matt01
Nov 25th, 2007, 11:06 PM
Peak Pierce. No one else :p

John.
Nov 25th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Pierce when she is on is unbeatable

RG 94 (until the final) and Hilton Head 2000 - She was barely losing games

Tamus
Nov 25th, 2007, 11:17 PM
good morning ,
I think they all ( exept Ivanovic ) reached top 1 cause they were unbeatable at their best , and now Henin's unbeatable ,

The most sensible post in the entire thread - and it comes from sweet cleo. :help:

Tamus
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:15 AM
If you're in favour of Serena, why not go for a 6-1 6-2 drubbing of Sharapova at the Australian Open final this year - Serena, clearly unfit, beating someone who was pretty much at her six-month peak, or so.

It would be very difficult to prove that Sharapova was not healthy during that final seeing as she beat Clijsters in straight sets the round before, and I believe a top ten player the round before that.

Sharapova's serves were under 100 MPH because she was feeling extremely pressured that Serena crushed them in the opening games.

It's ignorant posts like these that make me want to puke.

Maria's statistics from final three AO matches:

Final vs. S. Williams
1st Serve %: 51
Double Faults: 6
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 167 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 139 km/h
Winners/UE: 12/13

Semi vs. Clijsters
1st Serve %: 60
Double Faults: 8
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 168 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 143 km/h
Winners/UE: 27/33

Quarter vs. Chakvetadze
1st Serve %: 69
Double Faults: 6
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 164 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 136 km/h
Winners/UE: 32/41

You can speculate as to whether or not Maria was injured during that tournament all you want, but it's pretty clear that she wasn't at her "peak" going into the final.


As far as the thread topic is concerned, any of the top players can be considered unbeatable at their best. There is NEVER a match with two players playing at their best; it is impossible. Any of the players mentioned, save maybe Ivanovic, will beat anyone in the world if she plays her best. The problem is it is very rare for one to play his/her best. Furthermore, it's difficult to determine what their best is.

Tennisstar86
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:21 AM
It's ignorant posts like these that make me want to puke.

Maria's statistics from final three AO matches:

Final vs. S. Williams
1st Serve %: 51
Double Faults: 6
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 167 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 139 km/h
Winners/UE: 12/13

Semi vs. Clijsters
1st Serve %: 60
Double Faults: 8
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 168 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 143 km/h
Winners/UE: 27/33

Quarter vs. Chakvetadze
1st Serve %: 69
Double Faults: 6
Avg. 1st Serve Speed: 164 km/h
Avg. 2nd Serve Speed: 136 km/h
Winners/UE: 32/41

You can speculate as to whether or not Maria was injured during that tournament all you want, but it's pretty clear that she wasn't at her "peak" going into the final.


As far as the thread topic is concerned, any of the top players can be considered unbeatable at their best. There is NEVER a match with two players playing at their best; it is impossible. Any of the players mentioned, save maybe Ivanovic, will beat anyone in the world if she plays her best. The problem is it is very rare for one to play his/her best. Furthermore, it's difficult to determine what their best is.

lol ignorant post like the one you made.... that is Sharapova's best.... Heck 69% percentage is a good statistic... not many serve higher than that. And sharapova isnt known for kickin out the bombs..... the stats pretty much show that her best just wasnt good enough And as the other "ignorant" poster stated... Sharapova played/ served worse in the final because of how fierce Serena was playing.. Anyone watching the match saw that SErena lit a fear in Sharapova and i dont mean a "omg im afraid i think shes gonna hurt me....

It was a "OMG shes hitting so well... I dont know what to do to beat her.....) anyone who plays tennis knows that in warmups you can in fact sike yourself out of match just by worrying about how well the person your playing appears to hit the ball.....


Sharapova and Ivanovic shouldnt even be in this arguement IMO.....

Donny
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:40 AM
And most intelligent people can recognize that "your best" depends on your opponent, but maybe you're only semi intelligent :hug:. Something that's a winner against one player might be a set-up for a passing shot by a different opponent. I'm not talking about high-ranked players double-bageling nobodies. I'm talking about top players facing each other. They're not just going to play their games and roll over their opponents. There are going to be things they're unable to do and shots they're unable to make because of their opponents.

Faulty logic again. You're implying that a qualitative assessment of someone's game during a match is based on the score at the end. This isn't true. That's as silly as assuming that the second best chess player in the world suddenly starts playing "worst" when they face the best player on earth. Yes, they'll probably lose- but no, they didn't all of a sudden play like crap. They were just beaten. It's as silly as assuming that an undefeated arm wrestler suddenly weakens the moment they lose to someone. No, they were just bettered. And so on.

Example: Roddick got blown out in the AO semis by Federer. His serving allowed him to basically breeze through his service games for the first week of play. Then he proceeded to lose seven service games when playing Roger. Does this mean his serve was slower, or less well placed than in the other matches? No, it just means Federer's return of serve> Roddick's serve.

serena_venus4eva
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:41 AM
here is an example of maria at her best http://youtube.com/watch?v=uiPlQmBySPo
Anyway I would go with venus

Farina Elia Fan
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I really think when Lindsay is seeing the ball well and most importantly serving well, she is untouchable :shrug:

Tamus
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:51 AM
lol ignorant post like the one you made.... that is Sharapova's best.... Heck 69% percentage is a good statistic... not many serve higher than that. And sharapova isnt known for kickin out the bombs..... the stats pretty much show that her best just wasnt good enough And as the other "ignorant" poster stated... Sharapova played/ served worse in the final because of how fierce Serena was playing.. Anyone watching the match saw that SErena lit a fear in Sharapova and i dont mean a "omg im afraid i think shes gonna hurt me....

It was a "OMG shes hitting so well... I dont know what to do to beat her.....) anyone who plays tennis knows that in warmups you can in fact sike yourself out of match just by worrying about how well the person your playing appears to hit the ball.....


Sharapova and Ivanovic shouldnt even be in this arguement IMO.....

Look, the ignornat poster stated that Maria's serve speed was affected by Serena, which it clearly was not. I'll give you the arguement that Serena affected her serve %, but this is still based on speculation. (I mean, Sharapova served at 52% against Garbin in that tournament - I guess it's really scary to play Garbin as well.) It's still clear that Maria was not at her "peak" in that tournament, any unbaised, non-ignorant person can see this. And that 69% first serve against Chakvetadze was more of an aberration than the norm - she served at 60% against Pin, 52% against Garbin, 66% against Rodionova, and 62% against Zvonareva. Not horrible statistics, but not her best either. Add all the double faults that she threw in all tournament and it's obvious she was not at her "peak".

Tamus
Nov 26th, 2007, 12:53 AM
That being said, Serena still played damn well in the final and there wasn't much that Maria could've done to stop her.

WIMBLY2004
Nov 26th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Mary Pierce, when she is in the zone, she is scary, she is just so unlucky with injuries.

LUIS9
Nov 26th, 2007, 05:29 AM
I really think when Lindsay is seeing the ball well and most importantly serving well, she is untouchable :shrug:

I want to agree and in essence this is true, sure Davenport at her very finest is just about the worst opponent you want to face. Her returns are just crushing and her ground strokes and angles are just pathetic they are so good. Nevertheless even at her very best, Serena at her best can blow past her with pace and her "unreal" serve it' ridiculous how good it can be; and Venus' movement and unstoppable desire to chase down balls and return them with ferocity always got the better of Davenport even at her best or near best.

I think both Venus and Serena at their very best are pretty much unbeatable. That hypothetical match never took place but we've seen glimpses of what can happen when these two athletic titans are playing well at the same time, the returns are amazing and the athletic majesty is unsurpassed, the aussie 2003 encounter had some rally's that were sick.

I guess this case is given rest by none other than Steffi Graf. Well I guess Seles at her very best gets inside this debate easily. Did we ever get to see the very best of Seles, certainly the precursor of if for sure.

Watching
Nov 26th, 2007, 07:51 AM
Henin is leading the poll? Whilst Henin displays an extremely high level consistently I don't think personally her peak level could match a Pierce or Williams.

Rex59
Nov 26th, 2007, 09:31 AM
When Venus is at her best she is better than everyone else playing at their best. Matter of fact, Venus has the most talent of any women's player "ever". Her first serve when on is lethal. Her movement is second to no one. Her groundstrokes, both forward and two-handed backhand when hit with accuaracy, disarms her opponent. Her net game, when executed with precision and placement, augments her ground game and makes her even more dangerous. The only person beating Venus most times is Venus, for she sets the tone and the tempo in nearly all of her matches, save for her matches with Sprem, who is the only player that I have seen dictate to her. Unfortunately, most times she plays down to the level of her opponent, making nondescript players look like all-time greats. Her inconsistencies and erratic play drives her supporters crazy. She can look inept with a weak opponent, then dominate a highly ranked player. IMO, she has blown a magnificent opportunity to be the best by such inconsistent play. However, I will still say that when Venus is playing her best she can dismiss anyone on Tour and it doesn't matter what her opponent has to offer. When she is at her best, there is simply no comparison.

MistyGrey
Nov 26th, 2007, 09:45 AM
an example of Mary Pierce at her best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFbzPNNHWvw

Thats not peak Pierce... she was playing great, but not her absoloute best. Peak Pierce was at 94RG,95 AO,00 Hilton Head, 05 San Diego, and a different matches at various different events...

Petersmiler
Nov 26th, 2007, 09:46 AM
Round and round and round and round and round we go.

stefi62
Nov 26th, 2007, 09:51 AM
From that list Serena

but first name that came to my mind: Mary Pierce!

Meghanns Journey
Nov 26th, 2007, 11:27 AM
Justine Henin :)

aimee20
Nov 26th, 2007, 11:38 AM
when i was 12,i thought tennis was so easy because of peak Pierce.
you just need to paint the line here and there..it just looks so effortless.

CORIA01
Nov 26th, 2007, 11:43 AM
pierce?
Clijsters?

MatchpointPRT
Nov 26th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I think Mary Pierce should be in the list... because when she´s at her best she doesnt give many chances with her big shots...

darice
Nov 27th, 2007, 12:28 PM
i'm biased cause she's my fav but it's gotta be rena. at her best she is just so awesome!!! i just totally luv how rena just raises and raises her game when she's at her best. :worship: