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LoveFifteen
Oct 24th, 2007, 11:25 PM
I met a girl from Afghanistan last night at dinner. She mentioned that she knows lots of Muslim girls from several Middle Eastern countries who only allow their boyfriends to have anal sex with them because they are saving their "virginity" until marriage. :tape:

She also mentioned that unbroken hymens are prized possessions.

Can other people who know more about this share their knowledge? I had no idea. Does that mean I'm still a virgin, too? :unsure:

Sally Struthers
Oct 24th, 2007, 11:33 PM
All I have to say is that if you've stuck it in anywhere on anyone or have been the recipient you're no virgin :o

~Cherry*Blossom~
Oct 24th, 2007, 11:45 PM
yeh, there was a girl in my school that only took it up the arse because she wanted to save her "virginity" for someone special. The fact that she started this when she was 12-13 and slept with so many different guys, I was surprised she even had the nerve to call herself a virgin.

Apoleb
Oct 25th, 2007, 01:09 AM
It's what I call "hypocrisy." The idea is that a man should ideally marry a virgin, and women aren't supposed to have sex before marriage. So ofcourse a woman fears of getting rejected by a future potential husband if he discovers that she isn't a virgin. It's not really a Muslim thing. The attitude was(and to some extent still is, in rural places) rampant among Middle Eastern Christians, in Europe before sexual liberation and all that, and I'd think in many parts of the world. It's just another part of sexist and misogynistic societies.

Wannabeknowitall
Oct 25th, 2007, 01:23 AM
I met a girl from Afghanistan last night at dinner. She mentioned that she knows lots of Muslim girls from several Middle Eastern countries who only allow their boyfriends to have anal sex with them because they are saving their "virginity" until marriage. :tape:

She also mentioned that unbroken hymens are prized possessions.

Can other people who know more about this share their knowledge? I had no idea. Does that mean I'm still a virgin, too? :unsure:

Well you're hearing one part of the story.
We didn't even hear the man's part of the story yet.
Speaking of Afghanistan, you'll find out if you know someone who has been in Afghanistan in the last 6 years, that there's more hypocrisy going on in that.
Afghanistan turns a blind eye to homosexuality.

So in some cases that these girls are letting their boyfriend fuck them in the ass, the boyfriends are allowing it because to them ass is ass.

The thing about unbroken hymen is something that is seen in many cultures and as usual there loopholes for everything.

And no, I will have to say, you're not a virgin.
Your boi-pussy had been hit by so many Argentines, that it's an Argentine pussy now. ;)

miffedmax
Oct 25th, 2007, 04:56 AM
It's like the '50s, when girls would blow or stroke guys and then claim they were virgins, which I guess technically they were.

I wonder why those aren't options.

LoveFifteen
Oct 25th, 2007, 04:59 AM
It's just surprising to me that they think they are still being good Muslims. I don't think Allah's prohibition of pre-martial sex was an open invitation to take it up the ass. At the same time, kudos to those straight people who explore the gloriousness that is anal sex! :hearts:

égalité
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:20 AM
The first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title was "LoveFifteen has an unbroken hymen? I don't believe it! :eek:"

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 07:37 AM
It's what I call "hypocrisy." The idea is that a man should ideally marry a virgin, and women aren't supposed to have sex before marriage. So ofcourse a woman fears of getting rejected by a future potential husband if he discovers that she isn't a virgin. It's not really a Muslim thing. The attitude was(and to some extent still is, in rural places) rampant among Middle Eastern Christians, in Europe before sexual liberation and all that, and I'd think in many parts of the world. It's just another part of sexist and misogynistic societies.

I don't think virginity played such a big role in Europe even before the sexual revolution, at least not in the way it plays in the Middle East.

mckyle.
Oct 25th, 2007, 07:39 AM
religion :sad: those poor people :sobbing:

venus_rulez
Oct 25th, 2007, 10:02 AM
How did you get from hi my name is Jon to so how many girls do you know who've taken it up the ass?

Yasmine
Oct 25th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Hypocrisy with a big H...

No Name Face
Oct 25th, 2007, 12:24 PM
is anyone else kinda weirded out that this was a dinner conversation?

that is all.

miffedmax
Oct 25th, 2007, 02:14 PM
Well, 0-15 was involved . . .;) :devil:

Donny
Oct 25th, 2007, 02:23 PM
A really big surgery among Muslim women about to get married is a procedure that replaces a broken hymen- apparently the women getting it done thinks it can give you back your virginity- or maybe they just intend to deceive their husbands to be.

Apoleb
Oct 25th, 2007, 03:26 PM
I don't think virginity played such a big role in Europe even before the sexual revolution, at least not in the way it plays in the Middle East.

Maybe not just before the sexual revolution (which was in the 60s anyway), but in Europe historically women who made sex before marriage and who lost their viriginity were always looked down upon. As I said, this isn't a Muslim thing. It's more of a cultural and social issue and it started to change in the West with the rise of feminism and sexual liberation. Some parts of the world are still lagging when it comes to those issues.

Infiniti2001
Oct 25th, 2007, 03:46 PM
It kills me that woman are subjected to such high standards where sex is concerned ---- and no one bats an eye for the men :fiery: Meanwhile, I sent 0-15's post to a friend who has lived in the middle esat, and he sent me this response.

Yes this is true for some women. I also know so many women in middle east who had anal sex with their servants (they always keep on young men as drivers and house servants) because the husband is away in Europe having tabu free sex. I lived in Dubai, I knew so many young men from India and Pakistan who worked as drivers in Arab homes on a very small salary , even lower than and average daily labour, and they were so happy with the "perks"

:eek:

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 04:04 PM
Maybe not just before the sexual revolution (which was in the 60s anyway), but in Europe historically women who made sex before marriage and who lost their viriginity were always looked down upon.

In theory, yes, but in practice it wasn't that strict. Which is why I said it was different. Of course, it depends on exactly which period of European history you're talking about, but the emphasis on female virginity isn't as strong as in the Middle eastern culture. Premarital sex, yes. But that's part of the whole religious thing. But generally my understanding is that if a woman has a man's word that he will marry her then they will have premarital sex anyway.

Also, keep in mind that social prestige like inheritances and titles were very, very important through all periods of European history. Things like virginity would've been overlooked for these.

Expat
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:02 PM
this is a issue everywhere
dont u think that the catholic church likes to lecture about abstinence a lot
just that the majority of catholics no longer care or listento the church

in the muslim world the women havent been "liberated" yet
by liberation i dont mean the right to have sex before marriage but the ability to choose for one self
in a society where they are dependent on men and more importantly oil revenues from the govt to maintain a standard of living it is to be expected

in all societies if women are earning or stepping out of the house they are more likely to be independent and in control of their body
not to say that they dont get abused inside purdahs
they do get abused by their uncles and cousins etc and if it comes out they are promptly married to the offending cousin

hingis-seles
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Nobody's a virgin if they're screwing around. Ofcourse, unbroken hymens are the be all and end all for women who haven't been married. Pre-marital sex is frowned upon. It has more to do as a cultural issue in that part of the world than a religious issue. Besides the men wanting to marry virgins, there's also the girl's family who would be put to shame if everyone found out there daughter was a "common whore" who sleeps around.

It's a load of shit. Very hypocritical. Like someone else in this thread said, it's how it was all over the world in history. Most of the third world are still lagging behind.

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:28 PM
All I'm seeing is a bunch of apologists. Same old, same old. I'm so not surprised.

Since when and where is there evidence that women in other parts of the world now or at other times in history engaged in anal sex before marriage? And anal sex after marriage with servants and other men? :confused: That's the crux of the issue here.

It's not just about sexism.

Expat
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:35 PM
All I'm seeing is a bunch of apologists. Same old, same old. I'm so not surprised.

Since when and where is there evidence that women in other parts of the world now or at other times in history engaged in anal sex before marriage? And anal sex after marriage with servants and other men? :confused: That's the crux of the issue here.

It's not just about sexism.

just go to the US itself
you will find lot of teens engaging in oral sex and anal sex even now
and claiming they are still virgins because they are "good girls"

its the value that society pays to virginity (in this it is hymens as proof of virginity)
look there are a lot of things wrong with the arab world right now
but in this issue i dont think islam is to be blamed
islam prohibits all premarital sex
these people are interpreting premarital sex in their "convenient" way

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:40 PM
just go to the US itself
you will find lot of teens engaging in oral sex and anal sex even now
and claiming they are still virgins because they are "good girls"

its the value that society pays to virginity (in this it is hymens as proof of virginity)
look there are a lot of things wrong with the arab world right now
but in this issue i dont think islam is to be blamed
islam prohibits all premarital sex
these people are interpreting premarital sex in their "convenient" way

I'm not blaming Islam. Apoleb said that this was the same in Arab CHRISTIAN cultures and I accepted that. But I also said that the situation wasn't exactly the same generally throughout European history.

But more importantly, I'm saying that the crux of the issue is definitely not the same all over the world, all throughout history. I mean, for one thing, that's a bold and stupid statement considering so many cultures throughout history.

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 05:42 PM
just go to the US itself
you will find lot of teens engaging in oral sex and anal sex even now
and claiming they are still virgins because they are "good girls"

And you'll also find many that aren't.

griffin
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:01 PM
Also, keep in mind that social prestige like inheritances and titles were very, very important through all periods of European history. Things like virginity would've been overlooked for these.

Well, no - titles and inheritance made virginity (and post-marital fidelity) MORE important, not less. They wanted to insure that a man's heir were HIS heirs.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Diana became engaged to Prince Charles, but one of her male relatives had to make a public declaration of her virginity, and apparently it's still a treasonable offense for a man to have sex with the wife of their heir to England's throne. The tradition doesn't spring from any moral value but the desire to control property, power and inheritance.

lalit's right about young American women engaging in oral and anal sex while considering themselves virgins - particularly among evangelical/fundamentalist peer groups, from the studies I"ve seen.

Aside from the hypocrisy and twisted logic, the other scary bit is that they rarely use condoms. Hey, they're virgins, and they're doing it with nice boys, right?

Donny
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Well, no - titles and inheritance made virginity (and post-marital fidelity) MORE important, not less. They wanted to insure that a man's heir were HIS heirs.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Diana became engaged to Prince Charles, but one of her male relatives had to make a public declaration of her virginity, and apparently it's still a treasonable offense for a man to have sex with the wife of their heir to England's throne. The tradition doesn't spring from any moral value but the desire to control property, power and inheritance.

lalit's right about young American women engaging in oral and anal sex while considering themselves virgins - particularly among evangelical/fundamentalist peer groups, from the studies I"ve seen.

Aside from the hypocrisy and twisted logic, the other scary bit is that they rarely use condoms. Hey, they're virgins, and they're doing it with nice boys, right?

Well, going by pure statistics, if you're heterosexual, white, non IV drug using male or female, it is VERY unlikely that you'll contract AIDS relative to the rest of the country. Especially if you're only engaging in oral sex.

You're also less likely to become pregnant, obviously.

Apoleb
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:06 PM
I'm saying that the crux of the issue is definitely not the same all over the world, all throughout history.

I don't think people said "all" over the world. Saying that in "most" of the world there are or were similar attitudes isn't an exageration by any means. You have to be living in a cage or be totally ignorant about feminist issues to think that the issue of a woman's virginity and the hypocrisy on how women are treated in comparison to men when it comes to sex isn't a universal issue. Even in the West people haven't gotten over it. As I said, it's just that some parts are lagging more than others, and unfortunately the situation for women in the Gulf is one of the most horrible in the world.

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:10 PM
Well, no - titles and inheritance made virginity (and post-marital fidelity) MORE important, not less. They wanted to insure that a man's heir were HIS heirs.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Diana became engaged to Prince Charles, but one of her male relatives had to make a public declaration of her virginity, and apparently it's still a treasonable offense for a man to have sex with the wife of their heir to England's throne. The tradition doesn't spring from any moral value but the desire to control property, power and inheritance.


No I don't remember this, griff. But in case of royalty, I can imagine why this'll be a big issue with the whole heirs to the throne thing. I was talking more about those with considerable wealth and/or titles but not necessarily royalty. But I think you're missing point here. Are we talking about girls engaging in anal sex to keep virginity or not? The point in the OP is that the girl knew a lot of muslim girls who engaged in anal sex to circumvent this issue of remaining a virgin. I'm just saying that women in other parts of the world in other times in history hadn't necessarily been doing that - or at least not that I know of. They may abstain from sex altogether but so will their potential partners.

Okay, point taken about the evangelical girls but again that's not all of America.

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:12 PM
Well, no - titles and inheritance made virginity (and post-marital fidelity) MORE important, not less. They wanted to insure that a man's heir were HIS heirs.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember when Diana became engaged to Prince Charles, but one of her male relatives had to make a public declaration of her virginity, and apparently it's still a treasonable offense for a man to have sex with the wife of their heir to England's throne. The tradition doesn't spring from any moral value but the desire to control property, power and inheritance.


No I don't remember this, griff. But in case of royalty, I can imagine why this'll be a big issue with the whole heirs to the throne thing. I was talking more about those with considerable wealth and/or titles but not necessarily royalty. But I think you're missing point here. Are we talking about girls engaging in anal sex to keep virginity or not? The point in the OP is that the girl knew a lot of muslim girls who engaged in anal sex to circumvent this issue of remaining a virgin. I'm just saying that women in other parts of the world in other times in history hadn't necessarily been doing that - or at least not that I know of. They may abstain from sex altogether but so will their potential partners.

Okay, point taken about the evangelical girls but again that's not all of America.

Apoleb
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:18 PM
You think that women in Europe didn't do anal sex so they can still pretend to be virgins when the time comes for marriage? :lol: Really, this isn't the core issue if you think Islam tolerates anal sex before marriage. Anal sex is banned in Islam. The real issue here is people's attitude towards female virginity which was (and relatively still is) very similar across the world.

Expat
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:20 PM
i will give an example closer to my roots
in india there was a implicit assumption earlier that all girls are virgins till marriage
even now the expectation is that if you are going for an arranged marriage the groom would want a virgin
now due to the high desirability of virgins in india

and the delaying of marriage as more and more women are stepping into career oriented lives (the average age of marriage in india is going higher and higher and the age of puberty is falling lower and lower )
so there is a wider gap between hitting puberty and marriage compared to earlier
so this creates a huge gap of maybe 10 years or more
now you cant expect women to be sexually deprived that long
so more and more women are having bfs and affairs but not going all the distance
of course there are many who go the distance but as a proportion of women in india
it is still low but the pervcentage of people having premarital sex is rising
and it will keep on rising till it is considered normal or common and then it wouldnt be shocking at all
and if it wasnt the scare of AIDS
it virtually an epidemic in India more people would have been having sex
as an society allows its women to go out in the world the society loses its importance of virginity in favor of other things like employability and overall growth of the economy

on the other end muslims in india have still managed to keep their girls "intact"
however the flip side of this as they are dependent on fathers/brothers/husbands they end up in destitution and prostitution more once their benefactor dies or no longer cares for them

Donny
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Here's an interesting find about teens who participate in so called "viginity pledges":

Details
Because pledgers typically delayed sexual activity, had fewer sexual partners and married earlier than nonpledgers, the researchers "looked for explanations" as to why the differences in STD rates were not statistically significant, Bearman said, the Times reports (Washington Times, 3/19). The gap between pledgers and nonpledgers for high-risk behavior was statistically significant, with 2% of virgins who did not pledge reporting engaging in anal or oral sex, compared with 13% of those who did pledge (Washington Post, 3/19). According to Bruckner, the pledgers' increased likelihood of substituting oral or anal sex for vaginal intercourse puts them at risk of contracting STDs, according to Bruckner.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/21606.php

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:24 PM
You think that women in Europe didn't do anal sex so they can still pretend to be virgins when the time comes for marriage? :lol:

If you have any evidence for this I'd be happy to read it. ;)

They sure don't talk about this Jane Austen books, that's for sure. :lol:

And no I'm serious, evidence please if you have it.

griffin
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:31 PM
Okay, point taken about the evangelical girls but again that's not all of America.

Did anyone say it was?

Love15's lunch date isn't all of the Arab world.

And Victorian literature and epic costume dramas aren't all of female sexuality, either.

griffin
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:34 PM
They've found dildos hidden in the walls in old settlements where the economy had required men to be away from home for long periods of time.

Now, I can't say where the toys were "stored" when they weren't hidden in the walls, but it certainly indicates historically women have had more adventurous sex lives then your limited imagination would give them credit for.

Kart
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:39 PM
Well, going by pure statistics, if you're heterosexual, white, non IV drug using male or female, it is VERY unlikely that you'll contract AIDS relative to the rest of the country. Especially if you're only engaging in oral sex.


I guess they'll just have to content themselves with chlamydia, syphillis, gonorrhoea and herpes instead :D.

Sam L
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:41 PM
Did anyone say it was?

Love15's lunch date isn't all of the Arab world.

And Victorian literature and epic costume dramas aren't all of female sexuality, either.

They've found dildos hidden in the walls in old settlements where the economy had required men to be away from home for long periods of time.

Now, I can't say where the toys were "stored" when they weren't hidden in the walls, but it certainly indicates historically women have had more adventurous sex lives then your limited imagination would give them credit for.

That's fair enough, but dildos aren't necessarily anal sex.

Anyway, the thing that really bugs in this thread was the apologist behavior which so often pervades threads in which we talk about Islam or Arab culture. The "they were doing it everywhere too" attitude. And we're again taking a narrow Middle East-Europe view only. What about African women, Asian women, Mesoamerican and Aboriginal women? Pacific islanders?

By that same token, can I support the US to carpet bomb Iraq because you know they were doing it all the time in the past too? Why do apologists only come out in certain threads? Why are some countries and cultures criticized and held to a greater standard and yet others are always excused and justified in one way or the other?

Expat
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:48 PM
That's fair enough, but dildos aren't necessarily anal sex.

Anyway, the thing that really bugs in this thread was the

the apologist behavior u r seeing in this thread is something that is being used to explain why something is wrong
but we are not condoning it
the quran has a lot of things wrong in it starting from the world is flat bullshit

i just gave the example of india above

Why are some countries and cultures criticized and held to a greater standard and yet others are always excused and justified in one way or the other?
this is a pet peeve of mine too
why is islam treated with kid gloves
one has the right to mock jesus but not allah

but you are mixing the two
the crux here is women's rights and their utility to society
till arab society realizes the true worth of women as not just being baby producing machines we will continue to see this

griffin
Oct 25th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Who is apologizing? Or excusing? How is pointing out that this kind of hypocrisy is far from uncommon "apologizing"?

What annoys me about these threads is how much effort you expend hanging on to your own ignorance.

Apoleb
Oct 25th, 2007, 07:20 PM
You want evidence for the obvious? You think all European women were content with repressing their sexuality? :weirdo:

You're clearly very very desperate to make this issue something that it's not. I guess you'll be happy when people say that Arabs and Muslims are just very different, inferior people. No one was being apologetic or anything. It's a retarded attitude and unfortunatly a lot of the world (parts of the Muslim and Arabic world included) hasn't caught up yet. Just putting more perspective on this issue, that it's hardly Muslim or Arab at core.

BUBI
Oct 25th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Anal sex. ewww...


Do you know what's the difference between George Bush and gay men?

- Gay men know how to pull out of shit hole...

miffedmax
Oct 25th, 2007, 07:41 PM
It hasn't been that long since there was at least an assumption of virginity in the West.

I think lalit's post raises a valid point. It would seem that in largely agricultural societies, with younger marriage ages, it's at least somewhat reasonable to think young women will save themselves for marriage.

As societies transition into more urban, industrial or post-industrial settings, the marriage age tends to rise. It's less reasonable for a woman to put off sexual activity until she gets a proposal.

LIke I said, in the '40s and '50s a lot of woman in the US and Europe still placed a premium on being at least a "technical virgin" and heavy petting and oral sex were practiced by a lot of people. The availablity of the pill, and changing social mores mean that today very few of us expect to marry virgins.

A lot of people of other cultures are where we were, in terms of transitioning to urban-based economies, at the turn of the century. So it's not surprising to me that people are caught in that dichomoty of not getting married but still being at an age where they both want and need physical intimacy with a partner.

It's not like we in the West got over this centuries ago and can look down our noses at others. It's really just been a generation or so.

And, of course, the double standard of men being able to screw around women not is hypocritical and unnaccpetable to me.

It's interesting, when I was in high school back in the day, there was actually a premium on being a "nice girl" and if the word got out you were having sex your reputation suffered. In college, your reputation suffered if you weren't getting laid, no matter what your gender. So it's a question we still struggle with today.

BUBI
Oct 25th, 2007, 08:17 PM
It's not like we in the West got over this centuries ago and can look down our noses at others. It's really just been a generation or so.
It doesn't matter how long ago. Should women be virgin before marriage is just a matter of opinion, there is no right or wrong in this. I'm 99% sure I will never marry a virgin, it's not important, but it would be disturbing to know she likes to take it in the ass :tape:

Hypocricy is something people never get over of...

Wigglytuff
Oct 25th, 2007, 08:53 PM
but dont teens who take a vow of abstinence do the same thing? have LOTS of anal and oral sex (mostly unprotected).

griffin
Oct 25th, 2007, 08:54 PM
:secret: see previous page

Yep, indeed.

Melly Flew Us
Oct 25th, 2007, 10:54 PM
....
Anyway, the thing that really bugs in this thread was the apologist behavior which so often pervades threads in which we talk about Islam or Arab culture. The "they were doing it everywhere too" attitude....
the people that you call apologists are trying to give you the benefit of their knowledge but you don't want to know.

and may i remind you that jane austen never talked about slavery in her novels (save for an implied hint in mansfield park) - does that mean it never existed? no, it was a topic never discussed in polite circles; which is why the british are great at talking about the weather.

just say what you really mean straight up - you know you want to.

LoveFifteen
Oct 25th, 2007, 11:13 PM
The reason this entered into our dinner conversation was because a man at the table had done contract work in the Middle East for a year. We asked him if it was hard to live in a place where he couldn't date. I said that I would go crazy if I had to go live in some country where I suddenly had to be celibate for a year or risk the death penalty. He quickly disabused us from the notion that most Muslims refrain from sexual activity before marriage. The Afghan girl then mentioned her many female friends who are proud of their morality for not yet getting fucked in the pussy, but only in the ass. And I was, "Daaaaamn, I never knew Muslim women were my sisters in spirit!!!" :holla:

Kart
Oct 26th, 2007, 12:05 AM
Interesting that the one muslim poster in this thread (that I'm aware of) and the only other post that (indirectly) quoted the opinion of someone that had actually been to the middle east have been dismissed as apologists.

I would have thought they were the most qualified to comment on Arab and muslim culture.

That is, of course, on the gross assumption that you're actually interested in accurate debate rather than axe-grinding.

BUBI
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:04 AM
Interesting that the one muslim poster in this thread (that I'm aware of) and the only other post that (indirectly) quoted the opinion of someone that had actually been to the middle east have been dismissed as apologists.

I would have thought they were the most qualified to comment on Arab and muslim culture.

That is, of course, on the gross assumption that you're actually interested in accurate debate rather than axe-grinding.

True...

It's not like we are heading towards perfect society here and should look down to other countries and primitive cultures that are "behind" us. Unfortunately this is a common attitude... Hypocricy is not a cultural thing.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:44 AM
You want evidence for the obvious? You think all European women were content with repressing their sexuality? :weirdo:

What's obvious? That European (and Mesoamerican and Aboriginal) women in the past were engaging in anal sex so they remain 'technical' virgins? Yes, I want evidence of this. There are lots of books of female sexuality, I'm sure you can find one. Or are we just going to assume that because they repressed their sexuality they would've done this? Are we going by assumptions or facts?

You're clearly very very desperate to make this issue something that it's not. I guess you'll be happy when people say that Arabs and Muslims are just very different, inferior people. No one was being apologetic or anything. It's a retarded attitude and unfortunatly a lot of the world (parts of the Muslim and Arabic world included) hasn't caught up yet. Just putting more perspective on this issue, that it's hardly Muslim or Arab at core.

Inferior people? Those are your words, not mine. Certainly cultures and religions are different. It's not just the Muslims and Arabs. Historically and even now, Chinese are different to the rest of us too. Aboriginal cultures is different to the rest of us too.

I love history and I want to learn more about history. And when people make stupid, blanket statements like, "it's how it was all over the world in history," sure I want to see evidence.

Can I also reiterate once again that I'm not talking about sexist attitudes against women. I'm talking about women who are using anal sex to keep themselves 'technical virgins'.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:48 AM
Interesting that the one muslim poster in this thread (that I'm aware of) and the only other post that (indirectly) quoted the opinion of someone that had actually been to the middle east have been dismissed as apologists.

I would have thought they were the most qualified to comment on Arab and muslim culture.

That is, of course, on the gross assumption that you're actually interested in accurate debate rather than axe-grinding.

Actually, if you can read, it's not what they have to say on Arab or muslim culture that I have a problem with. It's what they have to say on the rest of the world through all periods of human history. :lol:

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Who is apologizing? Or excusing? How is pointing out that this kind of hypocrisy is far from uncommon "apologizing"?

What annoys me about these threads is how much effort you expend hanging on to your own ignorance.

Sorry, griff. But that's what it looks like where I'm sitting.

Look at the original post and the few posts following. Posters have recognized that this sort of hypocrisy goes on. Come on, griff, no one's stupid here. We all know this kind of thing happens one way or another.

What I do have a problem is is when two apologists come in here making excuses for why these girls have to go through what they go through - one in an Islamic country. By saying it happens everywhere or all throughout history, they're basically saying that this is justified.

It's okay because they were doing it too.

We see this type of attitude all the time though. Terrorism, violence and religious persecution.

When are people going to admit that there are some aspects of Islamic culture that are wrong? Never, because they're too busy apologizing.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:16 AM
the people that you call apologists are trying to give you the benefit of their knowledge but you don't want to know.

and may i remind you that jane austen never talked about slavery in her novels (save for an implied hint in mansfield park) - does that mean it never existed? no, it was a topic never discussed in polite circles; which is why the british are great at talking about the weather.

That Jane Austen comment was a joke and wasn't meant to taken literally.

just say what you really mean straight up - you know you want to.

I have. I don't like people who are apologizing and justifying this especially from people who won't be doing the same thing if it were western countries or culture that are under scrutiny.

Wigglytuff
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:42 AM
:secret: see previous page

Yep, indeed.

well they dont call it a short cut for nothing. :lol: :lol:

Dementieva_Dude
Oct 26th, 2007, 05:22 AM
When are people going to admit that there are some aspects of Islamic culture that are wrong? Never, because they're too busy apologizing.

Who are you to say that another culture is 'wrong', while others are 'right'? Just because you personally don't condone the practice, and YOUR sense of peronal morality is offended, it doesn't make any action 'wrong'. You state your desire to learn about history...I don't think you'll learn much if you view every differing action and viewpoint as wrong. Comparing cultural practices is like comparing apple sauce and elephants...it can't be easily done, and it requires much thought and an open mind (two things often lacking in some of these threads :tape:)

Quite frankly, if the practice works in their culture, good for them. I'm not going to judge what other people do in their bedrooms, since I don't want anyone judging what I do in mine.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Who are you to say that another culture is 'wrong', while others are 'right'?

Who am I? Who are we? There are plenty of people in this thread that's said it's wrong. Am I the only one that said it's wrong? No. So either address everyone sharing the same opinion or take your personal axe to grind somewhere else.

I, personally, don't care what muslims do and don't do in their beds or in their countries. It's, literally, the last thing on my mind. I. DON'T. CARE.

The only reason I responded in this thread was that other people were saying that what is happening with these Muslim girls is wrong and they're trying to justify it by saying that it's happened all over the world through periods of history without evidence to back it up and with apologist overtones.

Like I said, I don't care what they do, I'm not judging them. I don't even think about them. But don't try and apologize for them by making inaccurate historical comparisons.

Dementieva_Dude
Oct 26th, 2007, 06:13 AM
Who am I? Who are we? There are plenty of people in this thread that's said it's wrong. Am I the only one that said it's wrong? No. So either address everyone sharing the same opinion or take your personal axe to grind somewhere else.

I, personally, don't care what muslims do and don't do in their beds or in their countries. It's, literally, the last thing on my mind. I. DON'T. CARE.

The only reason I responded in this thread was that other people were saying that what is happening with these Muslim girls is wrong and they're trying to justify it by saying that it's happened all over the world through periods of history without evidence to back it up and with apologist overtones.

Like I said, I don't care what they do, I'm not judging them. I don't even think about them. But don't try and apologize for them by making inaccurate historical comparisons.

You're right, I wrongly accused you of being the only one with that view point, and there are others. I apologize for singling you out.

However, you're sending people on a wild goose chase...you want evidence of a practice that was AT BEST hidden and probably culturally shunned, and you want them to find evidence. The best evidence that can be found on the topic is probably oral (no pun intended), and therefore is open to criticism since it is not written in stone...

But for future reference, you may not think you're judging, but saying something is wrong is judging something :)

Kart
Oct 26th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Actually, if you can read, it's not what they have to say on Arab or muslim culture that I have a problem with. It's what they have to say on the rest of the world through all periods of human history. :lol:

Perhaps you could furnish your argument with a few quotes ?

All I see is posters commenting that it's not a problem isolated just to the Middle East - perhaps I've missed the particular bits that have upset you.

I don't see anyone saying 'it's okay/justified because it happens over the world.'

If it's a conclusion you've drawn by reading between the lines then I'd venture it's you that's not very good at reading.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 02:42 PM
Perhaps you could furnish your argument with a few quotes ?

All I see is posters commenting that it's not a problem isolated just to the Middle East - perhaps I've missed the particular bits that have upset you.

So you admit that you were wrong? Thanks. If you've missed it go back and read it again because I've clearly highlighted the bits that upset me.

I don't see anyone saying 'it's okay/justified because it happens over the world.'

If it's a conclusion you've drawn by reading between the lines then I'd venture it's you that's not very good at reading.

If you think that's the point of my argument, you've clearly missed my point. I do not think Apoleb nor hingis-seles condone this. In fact, they've made it quite clear. But they've also diverted the attention away from the issue at hand to one not so close to home. It's like, "I condemn terrorism but..." This is, of course, nothing new and a rather clever tactic.

So Kart, you've shown on two occasions that you have reading comprehension problems - which interestingly, begs the question how did you get your qualifications? - and perhaps this description is more appropriate to yourself rather than me: "That is, of course, on the gross assumption that you're actually interested in accurate debate rather than axe-grinding."

Of course, you must've thought this was a good opportunity to try and get back at me for the "Drugs companies" thread but instead you just shot yourself in the foot. Childish but nice try. Don't expect me to respond to your posts again.

Now, begone!

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 02:49 PM
You're right, I wrongly accused you of being the only one with that view point, and there are others. I apologize for singling you out.

Thank you although apology is really not necessary. :)

However, you're sending people on a wild goose chase...you want evidence of a practice that was AT BEST hidden and probably culturally shunned, and you want them to find evidence. The best evidence that can be found on the topic is probably oral (no pun intended), and therefore is open to criticism since it is not written in stone...

I agree. But the only reason why I'm asking for evidence is that they made the bold assertions. Of course, I understand that it was in their desperate attempts to divert the attention away but still it would've been sufficed to say that sexism existed and continues to exist.

But for future reference, you may not think you're judging, but saying something is wrong is judging something

I absolutely agree with this and also what you said in your earlier post about not judging what people do in their bedrooms. I apologize too for my judgmental behavior. I don't have a problem, per se, with these girls or their partners for these actions. I have to admit that I came into this thread and judged them. But I do realize how wrong this can be because I don't want people judging me or my partner for what I do in my bedroom. I think it's an important lesson actually. Thanks. :)

Wigglytuff
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:22 PM
So you admit that you were wrong?

wtf??

:lol: :lol: :help:

you no read berry good!!!


seriously though, griff this is why i took the short cut. i have seen this all before. sam l takes this as a chance to talk about how muslims are evil incarnate (take candy from babies, destroy society, blah blah blah). a few people are like "yeah, he's right". the rest of the posters however, try, unsuccessfully, to talk logic with this lot and it all turns into this.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:25 PM
wtf??

:lol: :lol: :help:

you no read berry good!!!


seriously though, griff this is why i took the short cut. i have seen this all before. sam l takes this as a chance to talk about how muslims are evil incarnate (take candy from babies, destroy society, blah blah blah). a few people are like "yeah, he's right". the rest of the posters however, try, unsuccessfully, to talk logic with this lot and it all turns into this.

Didn't griff teach you a lesson or two on reading in the Harry Potter thread? Child, please. :haha:

Pasta-Na
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:35 PM
y not having sex with the nose or somewhere else? :shrug: :p

griffin
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Sorry, griff. But that's what it looks like where I'm sitting.

...

What I do have a problem is is when two apologists come in here making excuses for why these girls have to go through what they go through - one in an Islamic country. By saying it happens everywhere or all throughout history, they're basically saying that this is justified.

It's okay because they were doing it too.


Posters reference similar behavior among teens in the US, particularly within a specific religious group - one even links you to specific statistics. Posters repeatedly use phrases like "hypocrisy" "double-standard" and "stupidity" to describe the behavior.

You see "apologists" and "so it's ok" and "no proof"

Once again, you are only willing to SEE what you are looking for in the first place.

Honestly, you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

Pasta-Na
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Didn't griff teach you a lesson or two on reading in the Harry Potter thread? Child, please. :haha:

first China, then Russia, now Middle East Countries :rolleyes: :weirdo:

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:48 PM
Posters reference similar behavior among teens in the US, particularly within a specific religious group - one even links you to specific statistics. Posters repeatedly use phrases like "hypocrisy" "double-standard" and "stupidity" to describe the behavior.

You see "apologists" and "so it's ok" and "no proof"

Once again, you are only willing to SEE what you are looking for in the first place.

Honestly, you really need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

But, griffin, you're missing the point. You see this all the time. Start a thread on terrorism and they'll start talking about Nazis and the crusades. Start a thread on burqas and they'll start talking about Amish and Orthodox Jews.

The tactic is to deflect the focus away from the issue. Why do you think they do this?

If they have the right to use this tactic, I also have the right to call on them for using that tactic. And I also have the right to deflect the focus back onto the real issue that is talking about: "muslim girls and their sexual practices". NOT evangelical American girls, not medieval European women.

I have the right to want to talk about muslim girls.

Kart
Oct 26th, 2007, 03:54 PM
Of course, you must've thought this was a good opportunity to try and get back at me for the "Drugs companies" thread but instead you just shot yourself in the foot. Childish but nice try. Don't expect me to respond to your posts again.


Your ability to extrapolate from fact to fiction is remarkable :lol:.

It's unfortunate that you're not capable of moving on from that other thread to the topic at hand here.

Still, it's understandable, given that you made a fool of yourself in there as well.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Your ability to extrapolate from fact to fiction is remarkable :lol:.

It's unfortunate that you're not capable of moving on from that other thread to the topic at hand here.

Still, it's understandable, given that you made a fool of yourself in there as well.

Learn to read next time before jumping on posters. :wavey:

griffin
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:12 PM
The tactic is to deflect the focus away from the issue. Why do you think they do this?

You mean like how, right now, you're trying to deflect focus away from the fact that your arguments have been quite shredded in this thread? Why do you think you do this?

I am not the one missing the point ;)

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:20 PM
You mean like how, right now, you're trying to deflect focus away from the fact that your arguments have been quite shredded in this thread? Why do you think you do this?

I am not the one missing the point ;)

;) Hardly.

Oh you take it lightly now but consider what is happening with Iran. What's their nuclear excuse? "They do it too".

Anyway, I would not have even posted in this thread if a certain poster didn't start talking about Arab Christians, Europeans before the sexual revolution and the rest of the world. ;) The actual sexual thing is really a non-issue for me.

griffin
Oct 26th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Anyway, I would not have even posted in this thread if a certain poster didn't start talking about Arab Christians, Europeans before the sexual revolution and the rest of the world.

Trust us Sam, we know that. You're probably the only person in this thread who doesn't see your biases.

Wigglytuff
Oct 26th, 2007, 05:44 PM
Learn to read next time before jumping on posters. :wavey:

:lol: :lol: :lol: oh dear. you of all people should not... oh nevermind, lost cause.

Sam L
Oct 26th, 2007, 06:10 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: oh dear. you of all people should not... oh nevermind, lost cause.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=309364&page=11

Enough said. :haha:

LoveFifteen
Oct 26th, 2007, 06:18 PM
Oh my God, my thread on butt sex got hijacked! :sobbing:

I was more hoping for hot Middle Eastern boys to talk about how they love giving it to their girls from behind. :drool:

griffin
Oct 26th, 2007, 06:48 PM
:lol:

Sorry, Lovie, I'll try to stay focused (or stay out of it) next time :cool:

James
Oct 26th, 2007, 07:16 PM
Oh my God, my thread on butt sex got hijacked! :sobbing:

I was more hoping for hot Middle Eastern boys to talk about how they love giving it to their girls from behind. :drool:

I have a feeling you'd be even more interested in hot Middle Eastern boys talking about giving it to you from behind, but I might be wrong. ;)

On topic: Sad that these girls would actually resort to this just to keep their virginity, at least in their eyes.

An aside: I wonder what the conclusion would be if someone actually studied this thread for a study on how to debate with respect.

Expat
Oct 26th, 2007, 07:18 PM
I have a feeling you'd be even more interested in hot Middle Eastern boys talking about giving it to you from behind, but I might be wrong. ;)


i was about to say the same thing about 0-15
but i have never seen ever a middle eastern boy here

Wigglytuff
Oct 26th, 2007, 07:48 PM
Oh my God, my thread on butt sex got hijacked! :sobbing:

I was more hoping for hot Middle Eastern boys to talk about how they love giving it to their girls from behind. :drool:

:sad: :sad: i think in the future if you start a thread like this you should make it clear that Sam L and his hate mongering are NOT welcomed and that all posts should be about, or relating to, butt sex. :) :)

Apoleb
Oct 26th, 2007, 07:51 PM
but i have never seen ever a middle eastern boy here

*waves*

Expat
Oct 26th, 2007, 07:56 PM
*waves*
i thought u were brazilian

Apoleb
Oct 26th, 2007, 08:00 PM
i thought u were brazilian

No. That's the flag of Christmas island. I put it because the name sounds cool. I'm Lebanese, but I dunno if being Christian (born) too still counts as Middle Eastern. :unsure:

Expat
Oct 26th, 2007, 08:11 PM
No. That's the flag of Christmas island. I put it because the name sounds cool. I'm Lebanese, but I dunno if being Christian (born) too still counts as Middle Eastern. :unsure:lebanese are definitely middle eastern but arent christians migrating to europe /australia/ etc from lebanon nowadays
or u still in lebanon

Apoleb
Oct 26th, 2007, 08:17 PM
lebanese are definitely middle eastern but arent christians migrating to europe /australia/ etc from lebanon nowadays
or u still in lebanon

They've always been migrating, but yeah lately more because of the political situation there. There is still a very strong community which makes 30/40% of the population. I'm currently a student in the US, but I go back there whenever I get the opportunity.

Expat
Oct 26th, 2007, 08:23 PM
They've always been migrating, but yeah lately more because of the political situation there. There is still a very strong community which makes 30/40% of the population. I'm currently a student in the US, but I go back there whenever I get the opportunity.
good that u love your country

miffedmax
Oct 26th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Oh my God, my thread on butt sex got hijacked! :sobbing:

I was more hoping for hot Middle Eastern boys to talk about how they love giving it to their girls from behind. :drool:

I guess I have more in common with LoveFifteen than I thought :haha:


(The stories all start "I am a student at a large Middle Eastern University . . .)

griffin
Oct 26th, 2007, 10:34 PM
(The stories all start "I am a student at a large Middle Eastern University . . .)


I think LoveFifteen's would start "I am a large student at...."

Expat
Oct 26th, 2007, 10:40 PM
I think LoveFifteen's would start "I am a large student at...."
how about extra large remember his condom thread