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View Full Version : Moment of Truth...well Post of Truth anyway..


thierry
Oct 12th, 2007, 08:17 PM
Ok Rena fans. I love you all. Y'all are the most devoted, crazy, schizophrenic, optimistic,gangsta,rude and obnoxious (proudly!) people i've ever met. And i love you all. But it's time to have THAT conversation.

In light of Serena's quaterfinals run (and i hate saying that as much as you hate reading it) it's time to ask....seriously....can Serena ever beat Justine again.

I have to say i'm concerned. I mean she's losing to freakin Kuzzie for crying out loud. I love Kuzzie but she is not worthy.

Let's face it...Justine(who i love also ...don't ask ...just let it go.... i love her) kinda has more game than Serena overall. My laptop just vibrated a little when i typed those words but i stand by them. Justine can do more on a tennis court than Serena. She's got more shots, more options, better mover, hear that people....she's FASTER than Serena on the court....again with the blasphemy but it's true....she will NEVER serve like Rena can but her return is almost there...i remember reading about how she practices TECHNIQUE....she practices how to hit groundies at this point in her career....that should tell you something. At this point if they play again i will have to give Justine the edge.

The question is this. Serena is still the best player of her generation. Based on results she is...no question...but for how much longer?

All you Serena fans..can you look me in the Avatar seriously and say with confidence that she will beat Justine next time they meet and however many times they meet after that? I'm almost more confident in Venus' chances at this point.

Maybe i'm being pessimistic but i assure you that i'm not. I just want Serena to take the crown soooooo bad but at the same time i will not cop out. We (Rena fans) HAVE to recognise the player that Justine is. There's no denying it. So there...serious replies only. You can call me out if you want to...just justify it with sound reasoning is all i ask.

Watching
Oct 12th, 2007, 08:32 PM
This is the Serena forum there are plenty of threads like this in GM?

However first of all Kuzzy is the no.2 in the world right now and don't forget she played really well against Serena in Stuttgart.

Secondly it is your opinion that Justine has more 'game' than Serena. She has more variety for sure but if Serena plays more and get's into even better shape there is no reason why she can't beat her consistently. She has the best serve and return in the game, super-powerful groundstrokes and great movement. Also it has always been my opinion that peak Serena is indeed unbeatable by anyone, ever.

So no she may not beat Justine next time they play but she is getting fitter and with that she can beat Justine again.

Sir Stefwhit
Oct 12th, 2007, 09:49 PM
What's so bad about losing to Kuzzy? She did beat Justine earlier this year. Serena's shown a consistency this year that she hasn't shown on tour for a long time. Losing three times to Justine isn't the best thing in the world, but right now Justine is on top of her game and more confident than ever. I don't think it's time to panic, all in all, this has been a great year for Serena. And it's likely she'll end the year in the top 5, let's not forgot where she started earlier this year.

Let the chips fall where they may, we can't be obsessed with keeping Serena ahead of Justine. For Serena it's important for her to play and stay healthy. If she can do that, everything else will fall into place- she's a great and the greats know how to get the job done. Keep the faith- or not, doesn't really matter cuz I'm a ride or die fan and I know we still got lots of 'highs' comin' our way, but be prepared for the occassional bad loses, they're par for the course.

Olórin
Oct 12th, 2007, 10:52 PM
SERIOUSLY NOW!

This isn't about Justine. She just happens to be the best player in the world at the moment, as far as I'm concerned. It's about Serena and her game. She has to look to herself to sort out her own problems, and she has to look into her heart, to see what she really wants. I believe she is doing both these things at the moment, and I'm proud of her. She will do her best. Also, she doesn't need to worry about Justine, she needs to worry Kuzzy. Justine's time will come.

Diesel
Oct 12th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Serena was here before, and she'll be here after Juju. Before this latest obstacle there were the greats who are either in the HOF or will be, and then there were the Jennifers, the Lindsays and Maria for example. Justine is just another in a long Serena Williams journey. Nothing special - just a footnote. It's a trip how Justine's fan constantly need to measure her up to Serena. Too cute.

And frankly I don't have to recognize a damn thing about Justine except that she topped Serena in 2007 head to head. She's the #1 ranked player for a reason. I can look you right in the avatar as you say and still feel, still claim Serena is a better player, hell person, and every match I always have confidence in Serena beating any player, that includes juju. It's how it's always been and always will be for me as a Serena fan until she retires.

Svetlana is a slam winner - she knows what it takes to win and on any given day, any player can win. It happened that with a player of her talent, it came together. There is nothing Serena has to feel bad about losing to Svetlana except that she lost. Serena has to take all her loses and even her wins and dissect them so she can see where she needs to improve, and what she did right. She's coming on up in her rankings and that will help her out especially at the beginning of the year so she won't have to struggle and fight so early on in major tournaments. She knows she's better than her ranking, we know it, the media, etc. It's simply time for her to do it.

2moretogo
Oct 13th, 2007, 01:43 AM
Serena will be fine... This may be juju's time right now, but Serena has found that drive again. I think that Juju QF loses and the loss to Kuzy in Stuggart are good for Serena. It hasn't been easy and its not getting any easier and I deep down, I don't think Serena would have it any other way.

As far as variety, I think this is and will always be an area where Serena is/will be underrated. Ree's got "all" the shots but quite honestly, she rarely has to use them. That's why I think that Justine presents a welcome and interesting challenge right now. (See Miami final) Serena will figure her out, as she did all my other faves and I see (injuries for either aside) a great rivalary forming.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 13th, 2007, 02:44 AM
pessimist much :rolleyes: this is the Serena Williams forum....only positive things plz....if you want to spew negatives and say how she can't beat a player and shouldn't be losing to THE #2 PLAYER IN THE WORLD.....then go to GM :o I'm gonna bad rep you for just coming in here with that....this isn't GM, just to reiterate....and talking about Serena lacks variety....though she may not use it look back to some of her matches especially as recently as Miami if you wanna see variety...she may not use it all the time cause you know what...she doesn't need it....if YOU can't handle that then that is YOUR problem not ours... :o good day

Jeff
Oct 13th, 2007, 03:45 AM
Am I confident that Serena can defeat Justine? No doubts. That's all i have to say about that ;)

StarDuvallGrant
Oct 13th, 2007, 04:25 AM
I don't fear any player that Serena faces. It's not to say that the player across the net isn't good, but I believe in Serena so much and many of us do too.

1000
Oct 13th, 2007, 10:54 PM
I do think Serena will beat Justine many more times before one of them retires, but I also believe Justine will beat Serena some to

vettipooh
Oct 14th, 2007, 12:53 AM
:rolleyes: thierry, You have the option to delete your own thread. :rolleyes:

2moretogo
Oct 14th, 2007, 02:02 AM
why delete the thread, its given us an opportunity to talk about things, personally I think that Serena fans spam GM too much when the threads should be posted here first....

With such an exciting on and off court player as Serena its a shame that it is so quiet in here.

StarDuvallGrant
Oct 14th, 2007, 02:16 AM
why delete the thread, its given us an opportunity to talk about things, personally I think that Serena fans spam GM too much when the threads should be posted here first....

With such an exciting on and off court player as Serena its a shame that it is so quiet in here.


I do agree especially w/some of the repeat offenders, but not seeing the connection w/the thread topic.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 14th, 2007, 02:46 AM
not at all :o this could count as spam

2moretogo
Oct 14th, 2007, 04:11 AM
I have to admit that I am relatively new to this part of wtaworld, so I don't know if the poster is a spammer or not. I would just say that if he is you know expose him, it doesn't mean that this thread can't turn into something positive, as 99.9999% of the posts in here are. Thierry spoke his piece and the rest of us said our piece backing up Serena and our faith in her abilities. I guess that's what I mean.

williamsluva
Oct 14th, 2007, 04:15 AM
I gotta admit after the USO I wondered the same thing too for a while, well I did believe that serena at her best would beat henin even after all the losses shes had, but I just didnt know if she could beat henin in this form, in the forseeable future. And I was quite worried because of the fact that serenas MOVEMENT is always a damn issue, fair enough, pressure hurts your groundies but she shouldnt look so "heavy" and I dont mean shes overweight I mean she moves as if she is. At the Aussie she was pretty damn fast even though she looked more unfit than she did at the uso or wimbledon, but from what i saw at stuttgart she still moves as though shes heavy. The person who made this thread said that henin is faster than her YES and Serena 02 was faster than henin is right now.

Right now serena is known as "the fighter", the woman with the will to win even when she hasnt played tournaments in months, and the woman with the best serve (and ability to hold) in the game. But "way back when", she was known as the best power baseliner, and she was feared for her ability to not only chase down everything but return it (even when on her back foot) with interest, She also had the biggest return game around because she saw the ball so early (like her sister) BUT she also had the explosiveness in her legs to get to those serves in a split second.

In terms of an all round, more complete player, I coulda sworn that martina hingis got create more shots than Clijsters, davenport, capriati or even one of the "no names" shes lost to this year. In terms of the greats many believed Steffi to be more complete than monica in terms of shot making. Brad gilbert said Agassi was more complete than pete, Federer said that Nadal is one dimensional and predictable like hewitt.

Serena may not use all the shots (although one shot ive not seen much of is that great topspin lob) but she does have quite a few, her slice is reasonable (esp for someone who usually doesnt slice), her punching volleys are also pretty good (considering shes a basliner) ive seen her use drops shots, not all were great but there were some fairly good ones (again I doubt she even practices this shot she uses it so rarely) and she has an underatted mind (tactical mind) that is overshadowed by her raw strength and athleticism. But in any case she never really has to use most of those other things (and that goes for her mind as well, Robert Landsorp said "when you can strike the ball well you dont need any damn strategy", she only really calls on it when in trouble or, well u saw what happened to kuzzy).

This post jumps around alot but bottom line, I really think shes gonna beat henin again, I just think that shes gonna struggle the first time, considering shes not as fast as she used to be and she hasnt got all the confidence she used to after the losses, PLUS the uso was the first example of henin actually playing well in order to win a match against rena. That last line is one of the reasons I really believe that Serena can do it and then go on to have a much more dominant H2H, FO Serena gave the match to her she was more scared than serena until she like 4-3 up inthe 2nd, Wimbledon an injured serena with almost no backhand came very very close to winning that first set, won the 2nd, and came close to squaring things in the 3rd set, Even at the USO serena served for the 1st.

After Serena wins 1 Then we will be back on even terms, after she wins 2 in a row, itll be "run back to paris bitch"

Nabalonge
Oct 14th, 2007, 04:52 AM
The question is this. Serena is still the best player of her generation. Based on results she is...no question...but for how much longer?



Serena's slams are significant and very important. But we must look at how Serena has impacted the game of tennis and how she's one of the few players in the women's game who is recognized outside of tennis. She may not end up with the most slam titles or tournament titles of her generation group but her place in women's tennis history has been safe for a long time.

This thread can be and it is a positive idea sharing thread. I think though too many times we see that Serena and Justine fans do not have an amicable relationship and although we've seen some Justine fans come and post in this forum, inroads weren't made because with time they showed they weren't honest, so some Serena fans remain wary.

williamsluva
Oct 14th, 2007, 11:02 AM
Serena's slams are significant and very important. But we must look at how Serena has impacted the game of tennis and how she's one of the few players in the women's game who is recognized outside of tennis. She may not end up with the most slam titles or tournament titles of her generation group but her place in women's tennis history has been safe for a long time.

This thread can be and it is a positive idea sharing thread. I think though too many times we see that Serena and Justine fans do not have an amicable relationship and although we've seen some Justine fans come and post in this forum, inroads weren't made because with time they showed they weren't honest, so some Serena fans remain wary.

The person said best "PLAYER" in terms of accomplishments on the court. Serena williams is the most famous tennis player of all time with her sister. Only Kournikova and Sharapova rival her in terms of how well known they are, and in terms of achievements (what shes done for black females) as well as being known in countries where they dont see all the supermodel mags and crap, serena is most well known, thats never gonna change.

But Will her tennis achievements (4 consecutive slams blah blah blah) stand up as the best of her generation for much longer? I guess its a valid question seeing how Henin is closing in.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 14th, 2007, 12:12 PM
wow your attitude changed quite drastically towards this topic once serena was losing :lol:

Olórin
Oct 14th, 2007, 01:34 PM
Yeah I thought that too! :lol:

Wasn't the question though will Serena be able to beat Henin rather than will Henin be greater?

On that second issue, Henin has closed the gap this year, but Serena is still clearly ahead, and Serena is likely to win a slam next year (more than one I hope!), and I would be surprised if Justine won two again.

Nabalonge
Oct 14th, 2007, 03:52 PM
The person said best "PLAYER" in terms of accomplishments on the court. Serena williams is the most famous tennis player of all time with her sister. Only Kournikova and Sharapova rival her in terms of how well known they are, and in terms of achievements (what shes done for black females) as well as being known in countries where they dont see all the supermodel mags and crap, serena is most well known, thats never gonna change.

But Will her tennis achievements (4 consecutive slams blah blah blah) stand up as the best of her generation for much longer? I guess its a valid question seeing how Henin is closing in.


I read the person's thread and fully understood what he/she was saying. Thank you. My answer, if it confused you, wasn't solely based on Serena's status off the tennis court, rather encompassed everything that Serena is. In terms of her legacy being set, on the tennis court that is, I repeat, "She may not end up with the most slam titles or tournament titles of her generation group but her place in women's tennis history has been safe for a long time. Greatest of her generation or not.

thierry
Oct 15th, 2007, 05:30 PM
I'm a little insulted that people think i'm an impostor. I've put in the time..trust me.....i have JOURNAL entries that read like a little five year old boy who just got kissed by Halle Berry or something...in that i was absolutely ecstatic from Serena wins. I have other entries that you would seriously think i just found out i had leukemia...from Serena losses...so don't question that please......Serena's rally from 5-1 down to Clijsters at 03 Oz semi? anyone remember that?....to me that was and remains the greatest comeback by Serena that i've ever seen.

On the other hand i loved Justine from day one. How could you not? She had pluck...swagger....that Justine walk is a walk of a woman who knows what she wants from her tennis racket. Seriously...watch Juju get up from the chair at a changeover as she goes to serve/receive....if that's not confidence i don't know what is. I also fell for her 'story' much like i did vee and rena. It's amazing to me how people don't see that Serena and Justine are kind of the same....the most alike players on tour to me.

To those serena fans who want to be devoted to her and only her more power to you. I am a realist. On ANY day...i would rather Serena beat Justine...actually i would Rather Serena completely obliterates her....but i love them both. If you can't get that then that's kind of junior high of you.

If i didn't care about Serena then why the post?

Anyway, my fears have been alayed a little after watching a youtube highlight of her semi against Sveta. It's safe to say this is the fittest she's looked since the 05 Oz when she was still kinda like Slam Serena but was beginning the descent down fitness hill. This is the best she's looked since then...any serious and mature Serena fan would admit that.

I have hope and will never give up but the question lingers.

Hopefully a Zurich final will offer some perspective.

Soothing
Oct 15th, 2007, 07:14 PM
The problem I see with Serena seriously being competitive again against Justine or making it back to #1 is her inability to subtain a high level of play. I went to 2 of her Open matches and she seems only to elevate when she has to. Smart yes, why elevate if you can win without going the extra mile. However in order to improve the duration of high level play shouldn't the objective be to utilize it as much and as long as possible to improve consistency? This has always been a weak point in the Williams game. Commentatators have pointed this out since they started playing and in Serena's case the footwork has also been an issue at times even when playing her best. The duration of high play in the early years was subtain for greater periods of time. These 2 weaknesses have increased over time and inactivity. Can she improve, I'm certain she can. It will take time and effort,which she seems willing to do. I also believe that without a doubt her place in the history of the game is VERY important to her, that being said she will do whatever neccesary to protect it. As theirry posted from what can be seen I don't think her weight is as big an issue as people make it. You can definitely she the definition is back in her upper body. So there are some positives and negatives and I'm sure with her strong will and talent she will suceed in her goals. As she stated she wouldn't be out there if she didn't think she could do it.

Olórin
Oct 15th, 2007, 07:52 PM
The problem I see with Serena seriously being competitive again against Justine or making it back to #1 is her inability to subtain a high level of play. I went to 2 of her Open matches and she seems only to elevate when she has to. Smart yes, why elevate if you can win without going the extra mile. However in order to improve the duration of high level play shouldn't the objective be to utilize it as much and as long as possible to improve consistency? This has always been a weak point in the Williams game. Commentatators have pointed this out since they started playing and in Serena's case the footwork has also been an issue at times even when playing her best. The duration of high play in the early years was subtain for greater periods of time. These 2 weaknesses have increased over time and inactivity. Can she improve, I'm certain she can. It will take time and effort,which she seems willing to do. I also believe that without a doubt her place in the history of the game is VERY important to her, that being said she will do whatever neccesary to protect it. As theirry posted from what can be seen I don't think her weight is as big an issue as people make it. You can definitely she the definition is back in her upper body. So there are some positives and negatives and I'm sure with her strong will and talent she will suceed in her goals. As she stated she wouldn't be out there if she didn't think she could do it.

You have nailed it in this post. I started a thead about Serena's consistency and you have summed up my thoughts perfectly :yeah:

Diesel
Oct 15th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Like whomever you like. But it's way passed old Justine fans pushing the Justine/Serena issue when it's not necessary. Do those of you who claim to dig both want a cookie for that accomplishment?

2moretogo
Oct 16th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Well Serena is the bomb diggity. I think AO was great, but that is not reality, and I truly believe that this fall will do Serena the best in the long run. As I have said before she has all the shots, Moscow was interesting because she seemed to have forgotten to get her ass to the net. I know Oracene and Richard have asked her to do more of this, as well as stop being lazy with that backhand. You know I just have faith Serena and Venus will get used to these non-ball bashers and know that the game has changed, yet again. Please give them an opportunity to do this.

Serendy Willick
Oct 16th, 2007, 06:45 AM
I'm a little insulted that people think i'm an impostor. I've put in the time..trust me.....i have JOURNAL entries that read like a little five year old boy who just got kissed by Halle Berry or something...in that i was absolutely ecstatic from Serena wins. I have other entries that you would seriously think i just found out i had leukemia...from Serena losses...so don't question that please......Serena's rally from 5-1 down to Clijsters at 03 Oz semi? anyone remember that?....to me that was and remains the greatest comeback by Serena that i've ever seen.

On the other hand i loved Justine from day one. How could you not? She had pluck...swagger....that Justine walk is a walk of a woman who knows what she wants from her tennis racket. Seriously...watch Juju get up from the chair at a changeover as she goes to serve/receive....if that's not confidence i don't know what is. I also fell for her 'story' much like i did vee and rena. It's amazing to me how people don't see that Serena and Justine are kind of the same....the most alike players on tour to me.

To those serena fans who want to be devoted to her and only her more power to you. I am a realist. On ANY day...i would rather Serena beat Justine...actually i would Rather Serena completely obliterates her....but i love them both. If you can't get that then that's kind of junior high of you.

If i didn't care about Serena then why the post?

Anyway, my fears have been alayed a little after watching a youtube highlight of her semi against Sveta. It's safe to say this is the fittest she's looked since the 05 Oz when she was still kinda like Slam Serena but was beginning the descent down fitness hill. This is the best she's looked since then...any serious and mature Serena fan would admit that.

I have hope and will never give up but the question lingers.

Hopefully a Zurich final will offer some perspective.


Then I have an idea for you. How about going to a JUSTINE forum and never comming back here?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

vettipooh
Oct 17th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Then I have an idea for you. How about going to a JUSTINE forum and never comming back here?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

;)

harloo
Oct 17th, 2007, 02:31 AM
I'm a little insulted that people think i'm an impostor. I've put in the time..trust me.....i have JOURNAL entries that read like a little five year old boy who just got kissed by Halle Berry or something...in that i was absolutely ecstatic from Serena wins. I have other entries that you would seriously think i just found out i had leukemia...from Serena losses...so don't question that please......Serena's rally from 5-1 down to Clijsters at 03 Oz semi? anyone remember that?....to me that was and remains the greatest comeback by Serena that i've ever seen.

On the other hand i loved Justine from day one. How could you not? She had pluck...swagger....that Justine walk is a walk of a woman who knows what she wants from her tennis racket. Seriously...watch Juju get up from the chair at a changeover as she goes to serve/receive....if that's not confidence i don't know what is. I also fell for her 'story' much like i did vee and rena. It's amazing to me how people don't see that Serena and Justine are kind of the same....the most alike players on tour to me.

To those serena fans who want to be devoted to her and only her more power to you. I am a realist. On ANY day...i would rather Serena beat Justine...actually i would Rather Serena completely obliterates her....but i love them both. If you can't get that then that's kind of junior high of you.

If i didn't care about Serena then why the post?

Anyway, my fears have been alayed a little after watching a youtube highlight of her semi against Sveta. It's safe to say this is the fittest she's looked since the 05 Oz when she was still kinda like Slam Serena but was beginning the descent down fitness hill. This is the best she's looked since then...any serious and mature Serena fan would admit that.

I have hope and will never give up but the question lingers.

Hopefully a Zurich final will offer some perspective.


Players forums are usually for the fans of players. As you'll notice most of us come to this area of the website to escape the childish remarks, petty attacks, and unwarranted criticism heaped on our favorite player. So if you're a fickle/neutral Serena fan it's best you post your ramblings in General Messages. Or considering you're a Justine fan you could shower her will praise in her forum.

Can you please respect the Serena fans who are here and stay out of this section with your negativity? :wavey:

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 17th, 2007, 02:32 PM
ty....at least there are some who think this is not warranted in a player section....this is not where you come and say 'i doubt serena can beat jh again' this is the section where you say 'jh may have won these times but you can bet your ass that serena will win whenever they meet next'......besides you're not as neutral as you say if you think that by her losses to jh that its the end of serena in that h-2-h battle....

Olórin
Oct 17th, 2007, 03:41 PM
I think you guys are being a 'lil harsh on thierry. I know the original post wasn't that positive, but it wasn't exactly hating on Serena either. Just perhaps looking at the negatives a little too much.

I didn't realise you were a Justine fan thierry until you made that second post, and to be honest I do think it's odd when someone is a fan of Justine and Serena, as in my opinion they couldn't be more different people or players. But I respect that you enjoy seeing both winning.

However, on the whole Serena fans do tend to be a positive bunch, so perhaps if you want a good reception, maybe word things a bit more carefully, and mention the positives in a post, as well as the negatives :shrug: Also, as I said before I'm not sure Justine is really all that relevant at the moment. Serena has enough on her plate without worrying about the Belgian.

harloo
Oct 17th, 2007, 09:55 PM
I think you guys are being a 'lil harsh on thierry. I know the original post wasn't that positive, but it wasn't exactly hating on Serena either. Just perhaps looking at the negatives a little too much.

I didn't realise you were a Justine fan thierry until you made that second post, and to be honest I do think it's odd when someone is a fan of Justine and Serena, as in my opinion they couldn't be more different people or players. But I respect that you enjoy seeing both winning.

However, on the whole Serena fans do tend to be a positive bunch, so perhaps if you want a good reception, maybe word things a bit more carefully, and mention the positives in a post, as well as the negatives :shrug: Also, as I said before I'm not sure Justine is really all that relevant at the moment. Serena has enough on her plate without worrying about the Belgian.

How are we being harsh on thierry? Do you see any Serena fans in Justine's forum posting gm type messages? All I'm saying is respect the player forums because they were created for a reason. They aren't for non-fans to start conflict and drama. I've read posts here from fans criticizing Serena on her performance but thierry's post is entirely different. He goes out of his way to praise Justine and discredit Serena. If you're so fascinated by Justine then go to her players forum and have a field day.:confused:

StarDuvallGrant
Oct 18th, 2007, 03:22 AM
I think you guys are being a 'lil harsh on thierry. I know the original post wasn't that positive, but it wasn't exactly hating on Serena either. Just perhaps looking at the negatives a little too much.

I didn't realise you were a Justine fan thierry until you made that second post, and to be honest I do think it's odd when someone is a fan of Justine and Serena, as in my opinion they couldn't be more different people or players. But I respect that you enjoy seeing both winning.

However, on the whole Serena fans do tend to be a positive bunch, so perhaps if you want a good reception, maybe word things a bit more carefully, and mention the positives in a post, as well as the negatives :shrug: Also, as I said before I'm not sure Justine is really all that relevant at the moment. Serena has enough on her plate without worrying about the Belgian.


To be fair, Thierry's posting history, it's been positive towards Serena (and Venus), however in general having Justine fans in a Serena forum doesn't go down too well because there's no respect as a foundation. History shows both sides often debate the posters rather than the subject. I've always been amused by these Justine fans who claim they also like Serena. But whenever things get tough, they side with Justine, they never see a bad word, post or thing another Justine fan has thrown Serena's way or a Serena fan's way, better yet one of my favorites - they show their disappointment at Serena's words/behavior and lose respect for her :lol: It's like they lie to your face and when the opportunity springs, they show who they really are. And it's not pretty. And for me, I hate the feeling like these Ju-Rena fans are forcing themselves on those of us who don't care to interact with them. Whatever objectivity in posting between me and Justine fans goes out the window when it just seems fake and forced.

Interesting subject matter, but Serena's obit has been written before, prematurely, and we've seen her rise time and time again.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 18th, 2007, 03:28 AM
couldn't agree more...it's not about being harsh....but that's a GM discussion....not a Serena forum "discussion" where more praise is going to JH

thierry
Oct 18th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I was hoping for a more mature discussion. It's funny coz that's why i DIDN'T go to the gm coz i thought it was going to be another 'let's talk about something completely different from the post' thread. Well that happened here also it seems.

Remember people what the post was about? it's not about me and others like me who can like two players at one time (shocking concept) ...i like Roger and Rafa too.

If you guys out there think i'm being negative then that's too bad. Lucky for me it's YOU people that are feeling the negativity. I'm just trying to have an objective discussion.

JH has won 8 very high quality titles this year and it seems there's gonna be a ninth come sunday...and maybe a 10th..you know...that big one that we're all waiting for..she is currently having the best season a woman has had since a certain Serena Williams won four slams in a row.

...Serena will have to play absolutely flawless tennis to beat JH. This fact may stick in your craw but deal with it, it's true. It's not easy for me to admit it. People say Serena has all the shots....if you are a serious Tennis fan...you know that Serena doesn't have a backhand slice...i'm not saying she can't slice it...she can slice a backhand but when have you ever seen her consistently using it as a tactical piece in a tennis match?...first time i saw her slicing more than thrice in a match was when she played you know who at the french...of course the results were disastrous.Same for the drop shot...she can drop shot a tennis ball i'm sure but is it a weapon in her arsenal that she can call on?....don't think so....Serena's drop shots are high and awkward.... face it people...JH has more finesse and style and is a much more complete player than Serena.

Serena has more raw tennis talent than any woman playing today. It's really that simple. However, justine is the harder worker. Serena has the bigger heart, by inches,but in their last matches we ALL saw a little fear staring across the net at JH.

I am NOT a finicky tennis fan. I will stick to the objective truth(as best as i know it) no matter how pissed of people get. Facts are facts.

Anyway....what i want is for serena, justine, ivanovic and chakvetadze to be in the same round robin group. That is when i will get a true sense of where Serena's game is. None of those girls are ball bashers....they all have interesting brainy and what people call 'tennissy' games....and if Serena comes out with even two wins from that group then i will be sitting pretty waiting for 08 Oz.....but if chakvetadze and ivanovic esp play like they can(with JH, playing well seems to be a given these days) it's gonna be an interesting time for Ms Williams.

Having said all that i still love Serena....i.love her to death....if you guys don't believe me then go screw yourselves....i'm done trying to prove it. This is a tennis board...where people exchange opinions...it's not a mindless cheering squad....for me it isn't anyway.

I can't wait to go Rena and Roddick double up in an exo in Omaha and I CANNOT WAIT!

Soothing
Oct 18th, 2007, 07:28 PM
thierry, just wanted to comment on your post, don't agree with all you stated, but will defend your right to state your opinion. Do you really think that Serena needs to have a consistent sliced backhand or drop shot to beat Henin? Notice I said consistent, because both are good, when properly executed.

IMO Serena needs to play her game period. Everytime she's tryed to employ a shot that isn't a natural part of her game it's been disasterous. I do agree, she will have to find the level that she had at the AO final in order to significantly challenge Justine, once she manages to do this, the mentally fragile Henin will crack. IMO What's missing is Serena's ability to slow things down, think it thru on court, the way she did in Miami.

Serena and Venus barring injury, will not, let Henin continue this win streak against them. They've had to figure out adversaries before and will do so again. Henin is beatable and the pressure to beat them both everytime they play will catch up to her. As to the fear you spoke of, I don't think so, flustration, yes. Serena's lost the last few times they've met, but each and everytime she is gaining some knowledge of what it will take to be victorious. It will happen:devil: :devil:

Diesel
Oct 18th, 2007, 07:52 PM
It's funny Thierry because you sound quite immature when you call some Serena fans immature, finicky, mindless, not realists. You expect more from others than you're willing to give :rolleyes:

Anyway, say what you want, deal with what you get back. Especially when you don't seem to remember what the hell you were asking. Is your thread about Serena beating Justine again or is it about her being the best of her generation? Pick a question, stick to it and deal with the answers or you can go screw yourself -- how mature of you by the way, must be the Justine fan part in you :)

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 19th, 2007, 11:56 AM
LMAO!!! that last sentence was great diesel :spit:


but seriously though.....how can anyone see this as objective with the amount of praise being thrown JH's way and the amount of negativity thrown serena's way all in the name of being "objective"???

2moretogo
Oct 19th, 2007, 01:13 PM
thierry, i think your question was asked and answered by several people. So I don't see that this thread was completely derailed from the beginning. I noticed that your posts has a lot of JH, so I can see where people might take issue with your statements/intentions.

Diesel
Oct 19th, 2007, 01:45 PM
LMAO!!! that last sentence was great diesel :spit:


but seriously though.....how can anyone see this as objective with the amount of praise being thrown JH's way and the amount of negativity thrown serena's way all in the name of being "objective"???


Thierry came in here posting his opinion like it was fact. You don't go into any discussion telling people to face things just because you see a matter one way. Who does he really think he is and did he think that type of language was conducive to any sort of objective discussion when he didn't start off as objective? I already know the answer to that is yes, because although he loves us Serena fans he's put himself on a pedastal far above us. Give me a break. As it is, why hasn't he responded to individual posts rather than taking everyone on at large? Serena fans don't think as one entity - there are numerous posts he could have taken on and just ignored the other ones he didn't like. He didn't come in here for a moment of truth.

BuTtErFrEnA
Oct 19th, 2007, 06:35 PM
well he did get some truth....he got the truth that he's not wanted :devil: tell him keep his blasted jh nonsense in her forum or in GM....btw good rep coming for that one sentence ;)lol i've never read something so funny (then again anything insulting jh is usually quite funny :angel: )

Kabezya
Oct 21st, 2007, 06:58 PM
Let the chips fall where they may, we can't be obsessed with keeping Serena ahead of Justine. For Serena it's important for her to play and stay healthy. If she can do that, everything else will fall into place- she's a great and the greats know how to get the job done. Keep the faith- or not, doesn't really matter cuz I'm a ride or die fan and I know we still got lots of 'highs' comin' our way, but be prepared for the occassional bad loses, they're par for the course.


I can't add anything to this. I agree completely.

williamsluva
Oct 24th, 2007, 04:48 AM
wow your attitude changed quite drastically towards this topic once serena was losing :lol:

If your referring to me, no i made the statements on the same day.

And Yes serena will definatley be remembered for what she did for the game, yes I still believe she has more than enough talent to kick henins ass at her best, and that once she gets one win over her she will constantly be able to. Thats once she gets her form back though, and shes already one of the older ladies of the tour the injuries keep piling on and physically things are gonna get harder and harder each year regardless of the fact that shes the most talented player ever.

So my stance on whether her achievements ON THE COURT, as a singles player, whether they will stand the test of time with henin closing the gap IN TERMS OF ACHIEVEMENTS (although her game has also gotten alot stronger than it used to be as is her body and her mind... though If Miami and Wimbledon are anything to go by, Serena at less than her best can either beat or at the very least put a huge test for henin playing her absolute best tennis, now its just a matter of Serena believing that again), that is something i still stand firm on, It is a possibility if injuries keep piling up like this, problem is that Henin wont go away, so even when serena finds her best tennis again and starts beating her, Henin will still be there unless she gets what is comin to her. With all these injuries and with the dip in form and confidence henin could very well go on and win a few more majors, take out the gold next year and win this years yec, she is very close to serena in terms of on court achievements (as a singles player) only lacking wimbledon, then she will have the career golden slam (but thats still a big IF! IF she wins it).


At the end of the day, looking at the greatest of the generation in terms of on court achievements people side step the doubles achievements, Serena has the potential, to go out for the next 4 years or so and show that shes better than justine by winning even more majors, nobody can argue with stats, but her achievements arent gonna stand up IF she and henin were to end their careers with the same amount of slams (and Henin winning wimbledon) but with henin having a slight winning record over her. I know we as fans will always know that she is better and the serena slam is unmatched by any in her generation, but in terms of history people will only see the numbers.


That is why i put forth the question on whether her achievements as they currently are, would stand the test of time, and to reiterate, i firmly believe that when she is healthy and hungry, she can and will do it. But from the last few months things havent looked too good and she just needs another kick.

williamsluva
Oct 24th, 2007, 04:56 AM
The problem I see with Serena seriously being competitive again against Justine or making it back to #1 is her inability to subtain a high level of play. I went to 2 of her Open matches and she seems only to elevate when she has to. Smart yes, why elevate if you can win without going the extra mile. However in order to improve the duration of high level play shouldn't the objective be to utilize it as much and as long as possible to improve consistency? This has always been a weak point in the Williams game. Commentatators have pointed this out since they started playing and in Serena's case the footwork has also been an issue at times even when playing her best. The duration of high play in the early years was subtain for greater periods of time. These 2 weaknesses have increased over time and inactivity. Can she improve, I'm certain she can. It will take time and effort,which she seems willing to do. I also believe that without a doubt her place in the history of the game is VERY important to her, that being said she will do whatever neccesary to protect it. As theirry posted from what can be seen I don't think her weight is as big an issue as people make it. You can definitely she the definition is back in her upper body. So there are some positives and negatives and I'm sure with her strong will and talent she will suceed in her goals. As she stated she wouldn't be out there if she didn't think she could do it.


Hallelujiah, Hallelujiah, Hallelujiah, Hallelujiah!!!!

So right. there is too much attachment to mom and dad too, true she can get into great form with those 2, but their abilities are limited as well, plus I doubt oracene pushes Serena as hard as Richard used to back when they had something to prove, u need energy from your coach to feed off. and some 10 years later Venus still has many glitches in her game, namingly that second serve, so they could definatley do with a fresh perspective for a little while at least.

Ive heard that their practice sessions are really boring too, Hit cross court, hit down the line, then serve 100s of serves on either side to all three parts of the box, and then volleying and approach practice. Its true that hte most basic are the most effective but they arent very motivating, especially when uve been doing it for at least 5 hours a day at least 5 days a week since you were a pre-teen.

williamsluva
Oct 24th, 2007, 05:33 AM
...Serena will have to play absolutely flawless tennis to beat JH. This fact may stick in your craw but deal with it, it's true. It's not easy for me to admit it. People say Serena has all the shots....if you are a serious Tennis fan...you know that Serena doesn't have a backhand slice...i'm not saying she can't slice it...she can slice a backhand but when have you ever seen her consistently using it as a tactical piece in a tennis match?...first time i saw her slicing more than thrice in a match was when she played you know who at the french...of course the results were disastrous.Same for the drop shot...she can drop shot a tennis ball i'm sure but is it a weapon in her arsenal that she can call on?....don't think so....Serena's drop shots are high and awkward.... face it people...JH has more finesse and style and is a much more complete player than Serena.

Serena has more raw tennis talent than any woman playing today. It's really that simple. However, justine is the harder worker. Serena has the bigger heart, by inches,but in their last matches we ALL saw a little fear staring across the net at JH.

!


Thierry, she won in miami this year right?? did she use alot of finesse to win that match??

Ok you love federer right?? Nadal was owning his ass on hard courts and clay courts (surprise surprise, finesse is very effective on clay), and twice nearly took him out on grass (yeh he lost at the YEC last year but everyone knows his form took a huge dive after Wimbledon, and every non-biased observer also knows he played nearly 30 matches singles and doubles during 1 1/2 months of the clay court season and had nothing left in the hamburg final), u know the great King Federer himself said after the 06 French open final that Nadal was 1 dimensional and predictable like hewitt and there was "nothing special" about his game (he didnt praise him until he was able to win wimbledon, thats when he puckered up to backtrack cos something finally went his way). Nadal also nearly beat him this year at wimbledon, Yes rafa approaches the net more often, and he actually has a decent slice backhand, but at the end of the day, he is usually just hitting his normal ground strokes, hes not trying to mix up every second ball, he plays what he knows and is just plain good at what he does, thats how he wins, He tried serve volleying for most of the 1st set of his loss to hewitt at queens last year, he lost that set, then the second set he just stayed back and won it comfortably (and retired from the match), when you go with what you know, what you know is that you can always count on WHAT YOU KNOW lol.

If serenas forehand and backhand come together like they did at the Aussie, if her serve also comes out of hiding, and her return too, oh and she gets her momvement, then she is able to keep each of those things close to her form in the aussie final (ok she can be 5% less than wat she was there). The only thing she needs to ADD ON to her "best game" is a few more approaches to the net, The way serena played in australia, if she were able to play that way at wimbledon she woulda straight setted Henin, and even at the USO it woulda been a VERYYY close battle and Ill tell you what hening woulda been on the back foot. Sure sure, serena would have made more unforced errors etc and henin is better than Maria, but theres an old saying I dont know the exact phrasing "It is better to do Few things Very well, than to do Many things poorly", and its something we use in strength training, athletic conditioning and fighting, a black belt knows 10 ways to block a punch, but u see many black belts get beaten up by the seasoned street fighter who knows 2-3 moves exceptionally well.


IF your still not convinced, Look at how David Nalbandian beat Federer this week, Henman said "U need to serve like roddick, have the groundies and Attacking return of Agassi, The court speed heart and mentality or Hewitt, and my (Tims) Volleys to beat federer", Yet Nalby has always troubled federer but he has a great sense of his capabilities, he knows that even though he can slice the ball and volley well, his strengths are his return and ground game, He just does that really well, he has never tried to be someone hes not against federer, and U watch their h2h hes always given him huge probs because of that, and federer is the female... I mean male, version of Henin).