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Forehand_Volley
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:32 PM
The Henin Era
(c. 2003-present)

I was asked by three people to start a thread about Henin's career since her ascent in 2003. She has been YE #1 for 3 of the past 5 years and her career stats since the year she won her first major explain why.

This thread is intended on celebrating Henin's accomplishments since her ascent in the WTA began in 2003. She's often overlooked for her accomplishments when compared to today's power players, but her numbers tell how she's surpassed her more powerful peers during this time period.

No one in the WTA has collectively been better than Henin the past five years. I looked at Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova and the Williams Sisters numbers as well. I posted Clijsters and Davenports numbers in another thread because they were closest to Henin.

Henin has won more tournaments, won more single majors, made it to more semifinals and finals...and the list goes on. Her H-2-H record against today's top 20 since the year she won her first major really tells why she's been so great the past five years. Henin doesn't have a losing record to anyone in the top 20.

She's reached the semifinals 55 times of the 63 tournaments she's played since 2003. :eek:

She's reached the finals 42 times of the 63 tournaments she's played since 2003.:eek:

She won 33 of the 42 times she reached the finals in tournaments she's played since 2003.:eek:


Let's look at the numbers year-by-year:

2007 (FO Champion, USO Champion, #1 Ranking, YEC Winner)
Tournaments Played (14)
Semifinals (14)
Finals (12)


2006 (#1 YE Ranking, FO Champion, YEC Winner)
Tournaments Played (13)
Semifinals (12)
Finals (10)

2005 (FO Champion)
Tournaments Played (9)
Semifinals (5)
Finals (5)

2004 (Olympic Champion, AO Champion)
Tournaments Played (9)
Semifinals (7)
Finals (5)

2003 (#1 YE Ranking, French and USO Champion)
Tournaments Played (18)
Semifinals (17)
Finals (11)



Grand Slam Singles Victories since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (7) Olympic Gold (1)
S. Williams (4)
V. Williams (2)
M. Sharapova (2)
A. Mauresmo (2)
A. Myskina (1)
S. Kuznetsova (1)
K. Clijsters (1)



Weeks at Number One since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (96+)
L. Davenport (60)
A. Mauresmo (39)
S. Williams (35)
K. Clijsters (19)
M. Sharapova (14)


Tournament Wins since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (34)
K. Clijsters (24)
A. Mauresmo (16)
M. Sharapova (16)
L. Davenport (14)



There seems to be an overwhelming perception that Justine is only a clay court player. However, her hardcourt results would surprise many since the year she won her first grand slam title in 2003. Henin has won more tournaments on hardcourt than she has clay :eek: :


Henin Hardcourt Record and tournament wins since 2003:

139-19 (88%)

17 out of Henin's 29 tournament wins since her ascent in 2003 have been on hardcourt.:eek:


Henin Claycourt Record since 2003:

75-6 (93%)

10 out of Henin's 31 tournament wins since her ascent in 2003 have been on clay.



Henin vs Today's Top 20 Since Her Ascent in 2003 (91-18):

Henin has a winning record against every player in the today's top 20 and one tie since 2003. :eek:

Henin v 2 Svetlana Kuznetsova (14-2)
Henin v 3 Jelena Jankovic (9-0)
Henin v 4 Ana Ivanovic (3-0)
Henin v 5 Maria Sharapova (6-2)
Henin v 6 Serena Williams (5-2)
Henin v 7 Anna Chakvetadze (3-0)
Henin v 8 Venus Williams (1-1)
Henin v 9 Daniela Hantuchova (1-0)
Henin v 10 Elena Dementieva (4-2)
Henin v 11 Marion Bartoli (3-1)
Henin v 12 Nadia Petrova (10-2)
Henin v 13 Amelie Mauresmo (8-5)
Henin v 14 Dinara Safina (4-0)
Henin v 15 Nicole Vaidisova (4-0)
Henin v 16 Shahar Peer (1-0)
Henin v 17 Patty Schnyder (6-1)
Henin v 18 Tatiana Golovin (3-0)
Henin v 19 Martina Hingis (2-0)
Henin v 20 Agnes Szavay (0-0)


Not Included (since Henin's ascent in 2003):

Henin v K. Clijsters (8-5)
Henin v L. Davenport (8-0)
Henin v J. Capriati (3-0)
Henin v M. Seles (2-0)
Henin v M. Pierce (4-1)

Henin Wins Olympic Gold (2004) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTz_V3xbjEA
No Strings: Henin (Part I of III) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUWVt3qluNY&mode=related&search=
No Strings: Henin (Part II of III) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AErElDWrh3E&mode=related&search=
No Strings: Henin (Part III of III) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwjcWZawsqk

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42016000/gif/_42016734_henin_options_416.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42025000/gif/_42025432_henin_attack4.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42016000/gif/_42016738_henin_serving_416.gif

supergrunt
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:44 PM
in the absence of the Williamses

Meghanns Journey
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:44 PM
This fantastic and clearly puts everything into perspective. I do agree that at times Justine's greatness and dominance is overlooked but I get the feeling that Justine likes it that way. She wants the titles and top ranking without a lot of the attention that comes with it.

Alyssa :)

shap_half
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:45 PM
yay Justine!!! keep going! keep going! :bounce:

Conor
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:46 PM
in the absence of the Williamses

Being fit and able to play is all part of being a tennis player too :rolleyes:

Amazing stats :worship:

jujufreak
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:46 PM
what an awesome thread :worship: :worship: :worship:

I think I'll come and read here every day :D

Justine, you're amazing :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

AllezH1
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:49 PM
Allez Justine! The best player of this generation!

Forehand_Volley
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:50 PM
in the absence of the Williamses
No.

Both Serena And Venus Williams was playing tennis in every year from 2003 and 2007. Injuries curtailed their participation at times, but over a five year period, its tough to discredit Henin's accomplishments. When you consider Henin's lengthy absence in 2004, all of these women in the WTA dealt with their own personal illness and injury over the past five years.

Serena and Venus each won (9) tournaments since the year Henin won her first major title, which has been five years.

Injury has become so woven in the fabric of the WTA, that in my opinion, it can't be used to discredit other players accomplishments over a five year period. Over a two year period, yes. But not five years.

Serena and Venus are two of the greatest of All-Time in my opinion. But Henin is proving herself to be as well. And that doesn't take away from Serena and Venus' accomplishments. Give credit where credit is due.

Matt01
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:51 PM
in the absence of the Williamses

Absent for the whole time from 2003 till now? :lol:

supergrunt
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:52 PM
when they played a lot they beat her.

Meghanns Journey
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Being fit and able to play is all part of being a tennis player too :rolleyes:

Amazing stats :worship:

That's what makes Justine's domainance even more incredible. When she first turned pro she was injured so often. There was no way to predict that she would turn things around and have this great career! And she's not done yet!!

Alyssa :)

Dexter
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Amazing feet. ;)

supergrunt
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:53 PM
but of course not if they played four tournaments a year

LindsayRulz
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Impressive stats by Henin! :)

supergrunt
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:54 PM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

Wayn77
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:55 PM
Truly awesome stats from Justine: kind of underlines why she is soo difficult to beat in 2007.

Amelie Mauresmo's 5 wins stand out for me:
must have been that deep, high-bouncing top-spin backhand of hers - keeping Ju way back behind the baseline.

They have played 12 times: do we know the surfaces of their meetings?

Conor
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:57 PM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

*Ahem* :rolleyes: I do believe this thread is about the last 5 years :o ...

sheyna
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:58 PM
I'm going to print it out and put it in a nice frame next to my framed pictures of Justine and her many, many trophies :) I have a Justine wall in my spare room :lol:

kabuki
Aug 19th, 2007, 11:59 PM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

Maybe, but clearly Justine is the best of the last 4 years. The next few years will decide who has the best career. I know who I'll be rooting for. :lol:

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:00 AM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

Oh shut up! Jealousy is really bad for your health. Stop ruining a Justine thread. If you don't like Justine why come in here.

Go away ... shoo, shoo, shoo

Kitten63
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Awesome stats from Justine

Ceri
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Really interesting, thanks for posting :)

Conor
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:00 AM
I'm going to print it out and put it in a nice frame next to my framed pictures of Justine and her many, many trophies :) I have a Justine wall in my spare room :lol:

:lol: Class, you'll have to take a picture for us ;)

Slutiana
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:00 AM
amazing feet!!!!1111 as pointed out before and great stats. Yes Venus and serena have had major injuries and as the two best players of this generation, im sure those stats would be different but amazing stats. I think it makes henin sound even greater when you think there's only 2 other players in the world who could have acually changed this. No one else even came close. :worship:

From a williams fan;)

CrossCourt~Rally
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:01 AM
:worship: MASTERFUL :worship:

kabuki
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Oh shut up! Jealousy is really bad for your health. Stop ruining a Justine thread. If you don't like Justine why come in here.

Go away ... shoo, shoo, shoo


:secret: This is GM.

kabuki
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:03 AM
amazing feet!!!!1111 as pointed out before and great stats. Yes Venus and serena have had major injuries and as the two best players of this generation, im sure those stats would be different but amazing stats. I think it makes henin sound even greater when you think there's only 2 other players in the world who could have acually changed this. No one else even came close.

Please tell me that is a joke!!!!1111

Conor
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:03 AM
amazing feet!!!!1111 as pointed out before and great stats. Yes Venus and serena have had major injuries and as the two best players of this generation, im sure those stats would be different but amazing stats. I think it makes henin sound even greater when you think there's only 2 other players in the world who could have acually changed this. No one else even came close.

Yes she does have rather nice feet doesnt she? :devil: ;) :lol:

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:03 AM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

:banghead:

justine is the best player of the past 5 years

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:06 AM
there are more than 5 years in a decade :p

miss molly
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:06 AM
Incredible stats, really impressive. :worship: Justine:worship:
:nerner: to those people who thought she would never achieve anything.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Truly awesome stats from Justine: kind of underlines why she is soo difficult to beat in 2007.

Amelie Mauresmo's 5 wins stand out for me:
must have been that deep, high-bouncing top-spin backhand of hers - keeping Ju way back behind the baseline.

They have played 12 times: do we know the surfaces of their meetings?

13 times since the year Henin won her first major. 14 total.

2007 International Womens Open Grass Henin
2007 Dubai Tennis Championships Hardcourt Henin
2006 Masters Greenset Henin
2006 Masters Greenset Mauresmo
2006 Wimbledon Grass Mauresmo
2006 German Open Clay Henin
2006 Australian Open Hardcourt Mauresmo
2005 Rogers Cup Hardcourt Henin
2004 Olympic Games Hardcourt Henin
2004 Bausch & Lomb Clay Mauresmo
2004 Adidas Cup Hardcourt Henin
2003 Masters (Tour Championship) Hardcourt Mauresmo
2003 German Open Clay Henin

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:09 AM
[QUOTE=Forehand_Volley;11450721]
Serena and Venus each won (9) tournaments since the year Henin won her first major title, which has been five years.

You are welcome to laud Justine's accomplishment but at the expense of Venus and Serena. I noticed you would like to dismiss their serious injuries which have caused them to be away for lengthy periods during this time. It's good for Justine that she made good on of the opportunity. Its no secret that the sisters hardly played tournaments because they hardly had healthy patches during this period. If you really want an honest discussion and comparison then you cannot dismiss the main cause for lack of paly by the sisters.:tape:

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:10 AM
:scratch: hey, but the thread starter....emm...:hopeless: :awww:

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:11 AM
13 times since the year Henin won her first major. 14 total.

2007 International Womens Open Grass Henin
2007 Dubai Tennis Championships Hardcourt Henin
2006 Masters Greenset Henin
2006 Masters Greenset Mauresmo
2006 Wimbledon Grass Mauresmo
2006 German Open Clay Henin
2006 Australian Open Hardcourt Mauresmo
2005 Rogers Cup Hardcourt Henin
2004 Olympic Games Hardcourt Henin
2004 Bausch & Lomb Clay Mauresmo
2004 Adidas Cup Hardcourt Henin
2003 Masters (Tour Championship) Hardcourt Mauresmo
2003 German Open Clay Henin


Thank you for all your hardwork Forehand_Volley. It's a great deal of information and something for a fan to keep.

Hopefully you will update it next year when she is even stronger :lol: :drool:

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:11 AM
and btw justine just need one slam more to become the best player of the decade.

Direwolf
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:12 AM
Go Venus and Henin..!!!
woohoo...!!!
pls.. meet in the USO..!!
SFs or Finals only..

Conor
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE]

You are welcome to laud Justine's accomplishment but at the expense of Venus and Serena. I noticed you would like to dismiss their serious injuries which have caused them to be away for lengthy periods during this time. It's good for Justine that she made good on of the opportunity. Its no secret that the sisters hardly played tournaments because they hardly had healthy patches during this period. If you really want an honest discussion and comparison then you cannot dismiss the main cause for lack of paly by the sisters.:tape:

:o Well how is it Justine managed to stay healthy for most of the last few years? Its all part of the game...

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:17 AM
No.

Both Serena And Venus Williams was playing tennis in every year from 2003 and 2007. Injuries curtailed their participation at times, but over a five year period, its tough to discredit Henin's accomplishments. When you consider Henin's lengthy absence in 2004, all of these women in the WTA dealt with their own personal illness and injury over the past five years.

Serena and Venus each won (9) tournaments since the year Henin won her first major title, which has been five years.

Injury has become so woven in the fabric of the WTA, that in my opinion, it can't be used to discredit other players accomplishments over a five year period. Over a two year period, yes. But not five years.

Serena and Venus are two of the greatest of All-Time in my opinion. But Henin is proving herself to be as well. And that doesn't take away from Serena and Venus' accomplishments. Give credit where credit is due.



You are welcome to laud Justine's accomplishment but at the expense of Venus and Serena. I noticed you would like to dismiss their serious injuries which have caused them to be away for lengthy periods during this time. It's good for Justine that she made good on of the opportunity. Its no secret that the sisters hardly played tournaments because they hardly had healthy patches during this period. If you really want an honest discussion and comparison then you cannot dismiss the main cause for lack of paly by the sisters.:tape:

Tournaments Played By Justine Henin since the year she won her first major title in 2003: 59 (29 wins)

Tournaments Played By Serena Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 41 (9 wins)

Tournaments Played By Venus Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 52 (9 wins)

Looks like Venus almost played as many tournaments as Henin in the past five years.. Serena not far behind.

It doesn't take away anything Serena and Venus have accomplished. We're celebrating Justine's accomplishments over the past five years in this thread and I have in no way attempted to diminish what Serena and Venus have accomplished during their career.

jujufreak
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:17 AM
*sigh* some people love to live in the past, don't they :)

Luckily we've got someone to cheer for who's THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WTA FOR THE PAST FIIIIIIIIIIVE YEARS :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:18 AM
and btw justine just need one slam more to become the best player of the decade.
Well, I don't know about that :lol:

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:18 AM
:banghead:

justine is the best player of the past 5 years

On clay for sure! On other surfaces I'm certainly not convinced.

The Daviator
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:18 AM
I'm sure someone can make a similar thread about Serena from 1999-2003, you have to look at a player's entire career, I mean you're obviously going to have great stats if you only look at a player's golden period :shrug:

soomaal
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:21 AM
No.

Both Serena And Venus Williams was playing tennis in every year from 2003 and 2007. Injuries curtailed their participation at times, but over a five year period, its tough to discredit Henin's accomplishments. When you consider Henin's lengthy absence in 2004, all of these women in the WTA dealt with their own personal illness and injury over the past five years.

Serena and Venus each won (9) tournaments since the year Henin won her first major title, which has been five years.

Injury has become so woven in the fabric of the WTA, that in my opinion, it can't be used to discredit other players accomplishments over a five year period. Over a two year period, yes. But not five years.

Serena and Venus are two of the greatest of All-Time in my opinion. But Henin is proving herself to be as well. And that doesn't take away from Serena and Venus' accomplishments. Give credit where credit is due.

I totally agree! Thanks for all that - very impressive of justine. I am sure that she will end up as one of the greatest of the game, if she is not there already. This is something for juju fans to be proud of and non-juju fans to just respect and appreciate. As a Venus fan I can only hope that they meet in the US Open Final. :drool: :drool:

Slutiana
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:21 AM
*sigh* some people love to live in the past, don't they :)

Luckily we've got someone to cheer for who's THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WTA FOR THE PAST FIIIIIIIIIIVE YEARS :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:p

thrust
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:21 AM
Forehand Volley- Great stats work and reply to the frustrated Williams fan. The Sisters are indeed great, but Justine is in their league whether they like it or not.

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:22 AM
[QUOTE=Vlover;11450855]

Tournaments Played By Justine Henin since the year she won her first major title in 2003: 59 (29 wins)

Tournaments Played By Serena Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 41 (9 wins)

Tournaments Played By Venus Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 52 (9 wins)


:yeah:

Vlad Tepes
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:24 AM
[QUOTE]

You are welcome to laud Justine's accomplishment but at the expense of Venus and Serena. I noticed you would like to dismiss their serious injuries which have caused them to be away for lengthy periods during this time. It's good for Justine that she made good on of the opportunity. Its no secret that the sisters hardly played tournaments because they hardly had healthy patches during this period. If you really want an honest discussion and comparison then you cannot dismiss the main cause for lack of paly by the sisters.:tape:

Do you honestly fail to realize that this is not Justine's fault and that being a great tennis player also involves being able to stay fit and compete in a healthy number of tournaments. We have no way of knowing how things would stand today, had the WS played every tournament Justine entered, maybe the present #1 would have beaten them as well. However, this is beyond the point and I don't see anyone complaining that Justine could have achieved more if it hadn't been for that virus.

Amazing stats, Justine, you'll always be my queen! :kiss: :worship: :hearts:

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:30 AM
On clay for sure! On other surfaces I'm certainly not convinced.

Would this convince you?

Most Hardcourt tournament victories in the past five years, since the year Henin won her first major title in 2003:

Clijsters (18) USO Champ (2005)
Henin (17) USO Champ (2003) AO Champ (2004)
Sharapova (12) USO Champ 2006
Davenport (10)

Were you aware that Henin has only won 10 tournaments on clay in the past five years?

Most of Henin's tournament successes have come on hardcourt.

Matt01
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:31 AM
[QUOTE]

You are welcome to laud Justine's accomplishment but at the expense of Venus and Serena. I noticed you would like to dismiss their serious injuries which have caused them to be away for lengthy periods during this time. It's good for Justine that she made good on of the opportunity. Its no secret that the sisters hardly played tournaments because they hardly had healthy patches during this period. If you really want an honest discussion and comparison then you cannot dismiss the main cause for lack of paly by the sisters.:tape:

Yeah, we all know that the poor Williams sisters are always somehow injured, but Justine wasn't untroubled form being injured either. She got seriously ill in 2004 when she was DOMINATING the tour. In 2005 she lost about another 4 months because of injuries/illnesses. You could also claim that ther stats would have been even more impressive without these hindrances. But we are not doing because we can only judge what actually happended on court with the players are fit enough to play...

On clay for sure! On other surfaces I'm certainly not convinced.

Well, that is your problem only. The stats are obvious and unambiguous.

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I've got one stat for ya... 8>6
You Justine fans just get so insecure :p
I will agree that in 2006 Justine was the best player... and whatever other year she did really well.. I forget; was it 2003?

pkilli
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:35 AM
Wow..these are truly amazing stats! As a devoted Ju fan, I didn't even realize all these accomplishments in numbers! :bounce:

Hope Ju continues playing like this and may god bless her with the best of health!

Thanks Forehand_Volley for putting these stats! You are my hero! :worship:

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:36 AM
She's the most accomplished player of the last five years. Very big difference.

For instance, Steffi Graf is by far the most accomplished woman in the Open Era. Is she the best? Not by a long shot.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:39 AM
I'm sure someone can make a similar thread about Serena from 1999-2003, you have to look at a player's entire career, I mean you're obviously going to have great stats if you only look at a player's golden period :shrug:

Fortunately for the rest of us all players are judged by their entire career and not by a selective period.:D I guess they have to be very selective in order to keep them happy.

Anyway I'm very happy with my faves overall career. Even when they are struggling they are still giving the competition hell.:worship:

spokenword73
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:41 AM
That's the trouble with stats. You can pick and choose to make them prove anything you want.

Not to say JH is not a great player. She obviously has had lots of success. But what happens if you were to break down stats another way like mph serve, forehead winners v backhand winners, df per match, or other categories crucial to tennis. Would she still be the best player?

:shrug:

It's like Barry Bonds the baseball player. Sure he has the most homeruns ever, but what about his other stats. Not so good.

Another way JH is like BB is that neither gets much love from sponsors, advertisers, endoresments, etc. Wonder why?

darrinbaker00
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:41 AM
She's the most accomplished player of the last five years. Very big difference.

For instance, Steffi Graf is by far the most accomplished woman in the Open Era. Is she the best? Not by a long shot.
How else can you objectively measure who's best?

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:43 AM
How else can you objectively measure who's best?

You can't objectively measure who's best, unless you have some set of criteria everyone agrees on when judging it. Does every serious tennis commentator, player, critic, and historian agree on stats to determine who's best? Does every fan? Obviously not.

This whole debate is by definition opinionated.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:45 AM
Fortunately for the rest of us all players are judged by their entire career and not by a selective period.:D I guess they have to be very selective in order to keep them happy.

Anyway I'm very happy with my faves overall career. Even when they are struggling they are still giving the competition hell.:worship:
I chose the period during which Henin won her first major title and #1 ranking and went forward to the present. Today. The amazing consistency since her ascent continues throughout a five year period.

You are more than welcome to compare your favs stats from the same period when they won their first major and go forward until today. Caution. Your mileage may vary.

moon
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:47 AM
I chose the period during which Henin won her first major title and #1 ranking and went forward to the present. Today. The amazing consistency since her ascent continues throughout a five year period.

You are more than welcome to compare your favs stats from the same period when they won their first major and go forward until today. Caution. Your mileage may vary.

Most consistent? yes.
Best? No.

The Daviator
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:48 AM
I chose the period during which Henin won her first major title and #1 ranking and went forward to the present. Today. The amazing consistency since her ascent continues throughout a five year period.

You are more than welcome to compare your favs stats from the same period when they won their first major and go forward until today. Caution. Your mileage may vary.

But if you're going to start from when she hit #1, then you're obviously going to have great stats, since no-one gets to #1 without great stats and several Slams except for L. Davenport of course :lol: :o

darrinbaker00
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:48 AM
You can't objectively measure who's best, unless you have some set of criteria everyone agrees on when judging it. Does every serious tennis commentator, player, critic, and historian agree on stats to determine who's best? Does every fan? Obviously not.

This whole debate is by definition opinionated.
If that's the case, then you can't definitively say that Steffi Graf isn't the greatest player of the Open Era. That's just your opinion.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:50 AM
That's the trouble with stats. You can pick and choose to make them prove anything you want.

Not to say JH is not a great player. She obviously has had lots of success. But what happens if you were to break down stats another way like mph serve, forehead winners v backhand winners, df per match, or other categories crucial to tennis. Would she still be the best player?
Yes. Henin's results over the past five years is another measure of how she is killing power tennis in my opinion. Most of the women in the top 10 can serve harder, hit harder groundstrokes, etc. etc. But the diminutive Belgian produces results. Results = success. Again, that's just my personal opinion.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:51 AM
But if you're going to start from when she hit #1, then you're obviously going to have great stats, since no-one gets to #1 without great stats and several Slams except for L. Davenport of course :lol: :o

Exactly. That's what so silly about this thread. You're basically picking the number one player, examining their career during their peak, while they're still AT their peak, and saying they're the winningest player.

Well, duh.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:51 AM
[QUOTE=Forehand_Volley;11450952]Would this convince you?
Henin USO Champ (2003) AO Champ (2004)

Quite frankly I'm more impressed by this:
Serena Williams - USO (2) AO (3) W (2) Miami (4)
Venus Williams - USO (2) W (4) Miami (3)

Sorry if my standards are high but I'm more interested in tournies where the best in the game all come to play.;)

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:51 AM
Most consistent? yes.
Best? No.
The numbers tell a different story. The results tell a different story.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:53 AM
If that's the case, then you can't definitively say that Steffi Graf isn't the greatest player of the Open Era. That's just your opinion.

Of course not. The best I can do is present facts and anecdotes to prove my argument.

Stamp Paid
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:54 AM
Not surprising at all.
Bravo Justine. I wonder who'll be the Top Player of the 2000s once all is said and done.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 12:56 AM
[QUOTE]

Quite frankly I'm more impressed by this:
Serena Williams - USO (2) AO (3) W (2) Miami (4)
Venus Williams - USO (2) W (4) Miami (3)

Sorry if my standards are high but I'm more interested in tournies where the best in the game all come to play.;)
It would be great for Venus and Serena had they had those results during the period when Henin has produced better tennis in the past five years since her ascent in 2003.

Unfortunately for you as a fan, its not happened.

And as sorry as I am for you that you can't provide better results for Venus and Serena since 2003, when Henin won her first major and attained the #1 ranking, I'm beginning to question your true motives in this thread. And I don't believe they are good motives either.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:00 AM
Not surprising at all.
Bravo Justine. I wonder who'll be the Top Player of the 2000s once all is said and done.
That is a very good question. I think a lot will depend on the performance of Justine, Venus, Serena, Maria, Amelie, and Jelena and a few others in the next three years. At that point, history will begin revealing itself and give us a clearer idea of who the top player will be.

DefyingGravity
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:01 AM
Justine has accomplished so much. The all star generation of GS Winners (between 2001-2007) of Capriati, Venus, Serena, Justine, Kim, Maria, and Amelie will be in the hall of fame. No doubt of it!

Look at what they've all done:

Serena (8 GS, career GS, 3 time AUS champ)
Justine (6 GS, 4 time RG champ)
Venus (6 GS, 4 time Wimb champ)
Jennifer (3 GS, 2 time AUS champ)
Maria (2 GS, Wimb and USO champ)
Amelie (2 GS, AUS and Wimb champ)
Kim (1 GS, USO champ)

Titles collectively in their careers:
185 titles in seven years (26 titles on average per year for those seven, with Capriati contributing 7 in that amount of time)

Venus-35 titles
Justine-35 titles
Kim - 34 titles
Serena - 28 titles
Amelie - 24 titles
Maria - 16 titles
Jennifer - 14 titles

Those two have the most of any active WTA player. Justine will surely surpass that.

Justine will win Wimbledon if she doesn't try so hard!

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:02 AM
Exactly. That's what so silly about this thread. You're basically picking the number one player, examining their career during their peak, while they're still AT their peak, and saying they're the winningest player.

Well, duh.

winningest :scratch:

What does that mean? :confused:

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:04 AM
Of course not. The best I can do is present facts and anecdotes to prove my argument.

Isn't that what Forehand_Volley is doing with Justine? Presenting facts and stats, so what's the difference?

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:04 AM
winningest :scratch:

What does that mean? :confused:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/winningest

Definition of winningest from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary with audio pronunciations, thesaurus, Word of the Day, and word games:

One entry found for winningest.

Main Entry: win·ning·est
Function: adjective
: having achieved the most wins <the winningest coach in football>


You're welcome.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:06 AM
[QUOTE]Henin's results over the past five years is another measure of how she is killing power tennis in my opinion.

Outside of clay she only killed Kim to aquire her other major wins so don't get carried away. She is still unable to make it through 2-3 power players at a major tournie.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:10 AM
But if you're going to start from when she hit #1, then you're obviously going to have great stats, since no-one gets to #1 without great stats and several Slams except for L. Davenport of course :lol: :o
Well, Lindsay really left me feeling odd about this five year period. She is the only one besides Henin to end a calendar year at number one in the past five years and she did it twice. Her results in 2004 and 2005 were great, but the lack of wins at the majors and her overall performance since Henin's ascent wasn't as consistently good as Henin's. Clijsters was another player with similar great play, but falling short. H-2-H really told the story.

However, Clijsters was the only player to win more hardcourt titles than Henin during this period. 18 to Henin's 17.

Matt01
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE]

Quite frankly I'm more impressed by this:
Serena Williams - USO (2) AO (3) W (2) Miami (4)
Venus Williams - USO (2) W (4) Miami (3)

Sorry if my standards are high but I'm more interested in tournies where the best in the game all come to play.;)

Justine was "absent" when Serena won 2 of her 3 AO titles, and one of her Miami titles. Justine was "absent" when Venus won 2 of her 3 Miami titles. You see, "the best in the game" didn't all come to play there ;)

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:16 AM
And as sorry as I am for you that you can't provide better results for Venus and Serena since 2003,

You are wasting your sympathy because what could be more recent than this:
2007 AO Champion - Serena Williams:worship:
2007 Wimbledon Champion - Venus Williams:worship:
I'm quite happy with such results!:bounce:

I'm beginning to question your true motives in this thread. And I don't believe they are good motives either.

The feeling is mutual.:p

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:17 AM
Outside of clay she only killed Kim to aquire her other major wins so don't get carried away. She is still unable to make it through 2-3 power players at a major tournie.
I would suggest you provide more than just ambiguous statements in your attempt to diminish Henin's accomplishment over the past five years. Clijsters and Davenport were consistently the other best players statistically during this five year period (haven't forgotten about Amelie), but Henin had a combined 16-5 H-2-H record against Clijsters and Davenport. Add Amelie to that and Henin's H-2-H against all three players is 24-10.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE=Vlover;11451107]

Justine was "absent" when Serena won 2 of her 3 AO titles, and one of her Miami titles. Justine was "absent" when Venus won 2 of her 3 Miami titles. You see, "the best in the game" didn't all come to play there ;)

The same can be said for Serena and Venus when Justine won USO '3 and
AO '4 so you lost that arguement too.:p Try harder!:lol:

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:23 AM
The same can be said for Serena and Venus when Justine won USO '3 and
AO '4 so you lost that arguement too.:p Try harder!:lol:
Just two majors? I thought there were more, but its not my argument to lose.

By the way, Venus lost in the third round of the '04 Australian Open, the same major that Henin won. Let's all try to be more factual.

felipe2004
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:28 AM
in the absence of the Williamses
Justine is 4-3 against Williams sisters in these five years you know ;)

DefyingGravity
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:34 AM
2003
Venus Williams def. Justine Henin
Justine Henin def. Serena Williams
Justine Henin def. Serena Williams
Serena Williams def. Justine Henin
2-2

2004
DNP
2005
DNP
2006
DNP
2007
Serena Williams def. Justine Henin
Justine Henin def. Serena Williams
Justine Henin def. Serena Williams
Justine Henin def. Serena Williams

4-3

Felipe is right. However, 4-2 against Serena Williams, 0-1 against Venus.

I think Venus could beat Justine even if she's a little off, because she can take the net away from Justine, and even though Justine's passing shots are stellar...they're stellar when they get in the court or over the net against a good volleyer, and since Venus has the reach...mmm....I think Venus could still be Justine.

felipe2004
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:36 AM
in the absence of the Williamses
Serena played 12 tournaments and Venus played 16 tournaments in 2004, while Justine played only 9.
Serena played 10 tournaments and Venus played 12 in 2005, while Justine played only 9.
Guess what? Justine had a better year in both those years ;)

danieln1
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:36 AM
In comparison to the Williams sisters, Henin is the better player! Much more complete game, not just brainless ball bashing all the time...

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:40 AM
[QUOTE=Forehand_Volley;11451229in your attempt to diminish Henin's accomplishment over the past five years.

I'm not trying to diminish Justine's accomplishments. I'm just not allowing you to elevate Justine's accomplishments by discrediting Venus' and Serena's career. Their careers didn't begin in 2003 so why should I discount their successes pre '03 just to make Justine fans feel good.

Each champion had a period when they had peak years and can produce stats to support that but what is relevant is the present. Let's wait and see how she peforms at the majors before your "great" proclaimation. Yes, she's a great clay court player but I have great reservations for everything else. She has to win big like everyone else.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:40 AM
In comparison to the Williams sisters, Henin is the better player! Much more complete game, not just brainless ball bashing all the time...

It it requires no brainpower, why doesn't EVERY player do it?

Kworb
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:43 AM
Justine is at least as good as the Williams sisters and undoubtedly the best player of the past five years. It's not even a discussion.

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:48 AM
I guess based off of stats, Justine has been the best in the past 5 years.. based on tennis ability, it is a different story- atlesat in my opinion. :)

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:53 AM
In comparison to the Williams sisters, Henin is the better player! Much more complete game, not just brainless ball bashing all the time...

Obviously tennis doesn't need much brains to play because the brainless ball bashing is killing all these complete games. Judging by results ball bashing is leading!:yeah:

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE]

but what is relevant is the present.

Justine Henin - 6 Tourneys, 1 GS & World No. 1
Serena Williams - 1 Tourney & 1 GS & World No. 8
Venus Williams - 1 Tourney & 1 GS & World No. 13

How much more present do you want? I can do the win loss ratio if you want but Justine would still come out the winner? ;)

AllezH1
Aug 20th, 2007, 01:58 AM
Yes.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:10 AM
I'm not trying to diminish Justine's accomplishments. I'm just not allowing you to elevate Justine's accomplishments by discrediting Venus' and Serena's career.
I think enough factual data has been provided by myself in the original article to substantiate my claim that Henin's record since the year of her first grand slam title (a five year period) has been better than any other tennis player on the planet. Henin's continued stellar play has continued to this very day when she won her 17th hardcourt title, Tier I Toronto. That's seven more than she's won on clay during this period.

Having said that, a few defensive fans have failed in their attempt to diminish her accomplishments on hardcourt, in the grand slam events and against other players whose results since Henin's ascent during the past five years haven't been as stellar. You have been one of them in my opinion. I compared Henin's accomplishments with every top player the past five years, not just Serena and Venus Williams.

Even from an entire career standpoint, Henin has proven herself to be quite competitive with anyone from this generation. However, I have been most interested in how Henin is handling her career since breaking through at the majors in 2003, and she's continually shown the consistency worthy of a great champion. Perhaps not that of Graf, Evert or Navratilova at the present, but certainly Henin has proven she has the potential of carving out a career which is noteworthy historically. The next three to five years will reveal to us all the significance of Henin's career when compared to others of her and previous generations.

Does that make Venus and Serena any less of a champion and what they have accomplished historically? No. But you can't turn your head away from what's happened in tennis the past five years just because it doesn't favor who you like better on a tennis court. If Venus and Serena had numbers over the past five years that could remotely challenge Henin over the past five years, they would have equally been appearent. I underscored Venus as being the only top 20 player to have a winning record (1-0) against Henin in the past five years. But it stops there. I can't change the history of the past five years and neither can you. Accept it.

Expat
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:13 AM
the only thing i will concede is that she is focused on tennis and very consistent whereas the Williams sisters are either injured or distracted and yes she is the best clay courter out there
good effort by Justine to gather whatever opportunity came in her hands

Venus and Serena rule
hopefully they can stay fit and motivated

bottomline she is consistent not the best
she dominated in an era when the golden era of women's tennis was fading

Volcana
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:19 AM
I believe you thread title contains a false premise. Or at least an unproven one. Henin is the winningest player in the WTA in the past five years. That doesn't necessarily mean she's the best. An analogy might be made to Martina Hingis in 2000. She won five Tier I tournaments, plus the YEC, was ranked #1 the entire year, and was named ITF Player of the Year. She wasn't the best player on the tour.

I fully expect Henin to finish the year ranked #1. But if Venus or Serena finishes this year winning two slams, they're the best player. They just happened to miss some time with injury.

urklerlay
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:29 AM
The length of this thread cracks me up!

"Winningest" usually, and I say, "usually", translates into the "best" -- and anything else is purely speculation.

Ntour
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Yes she does have rather nice feet doesnt she? :devil: ;) :lol:

yeah in one of the changeovers in the toronto final she changed her sock and i couldn't stop looking at her sexy little foot

Serenidad.
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Justine is good. I'll admit that, everyone can admit that. All the past professionals who are still around tennis will tell you, Serena is the best. When you mention Justine's facts you forgot to mention that. Serena has the highest winning percentage amongst active players, the most grandslams amongst active players, and a winning H2H against Henin. =)

Everyone knows Serena is the best player of her era, and if she wanted to even more. Henin is good, but she is surely not Serena!

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:30 AM
I believe you thread title contains a false premise. Or at least an unproven one. Henin is the winningest player in the WTA in the past five years. That doesn't necessarily mean she's the best. An analogy might be made to Martina Hingis in 2000. She won five Tier I tournaments, plus the YEC, was ranked #1 the entire year, and was named ITF Player of the Year. She wasn't the best player on the tour.

I fully expect Henin to finish the year ranked #1. But if Venus or Serena finishes this year winning two slams, they're the best player. They just happened to miss some time with injury.
Here's the problem I have with your Martina analogy. You are only basing results of ONE year, vs my five year span of Henin's career since she won her first major.

No player on this planet has won more majors, more tournaments, more weeks at number one, or has a better record against today's top twenty over the past five years since Henin's first year of her inaugural slam win than Henin.

I stand by Henin as being the best player on the planet since she won her first major, five years ago. No one comes close. And until a tennis player can win more majors, win more tournaments, be number one for more weeks than Henin since she first won her inaugural slam event, the argument is futile.

In my humble opinion, of course.

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:33 AM
Wow! 29-18. :bounce: Since 2003, Justine is better than both Williams sisters combined. :ras: :lol:

:secret: BTW, has it been mentioned that Justine has been Numero Uno ALL YEAR :yeah: except for that brief period when her Aussie points came off. :lol: :haha:

some serious sour grapers in this thread. :rolleyes: :tape: :lol:

:hatoff:

CJ07
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:35 AM
At their Best:

Serena > Venus > Justine

Average:

Serena > Justine > Venus

Consistency:

Justine > Venus > Serena

Overall:

Serena > Venus >= Justine

Just my opinion

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:35 AM
I believe you


Shoulda stopped right there. ;)

:haha:

Oy vey! :help:

franny
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:39 AM
I've got one stat for ya... 8>6
You Justine fans just get so insecure :p
I will agree that in 2006 Justine was the best player... and whatever other year she did really well.. I forget; was it 2003?

Insecure is having to go onto a thread made clearly by the fan of one player to laud the accomplishments of one player and then to try to diminish those accomplishments. It's not necessary. The thread is celebratory, why come and be negative? What one should have done, in this situation is to create a thread to celebrate one's own favorite player. There is no need to bring negativity to a thread, and then to claim that the original starter and fans of she whom the thread is celebrating are insecure is quite pathetic, in my opinion.

ampers&
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:44 AM
I despise Justine. But even I can admit she's been, far and away, the best player the last 5 years. Better than Serena. Better than Venus. Better than everyone. Her consistency is truly outstanding. Not to mention she's a damn good player. I don't know how anyone could rationally argue against it.

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:45 AM
Besides, there's no need for Justine fans to be insecure: the numbers speak for themselves. Unlike SOME fans :hehehe: (and you know who you are ;) ), we don't need to use Justine's injuries/illnesses as a...errr...ummm. crutch! :p But Justine is certainly to blame for certain other players' lack of focus. She uses her Juju to hynotize them into complacency. :hehehe:

:lol:

freeandlonely
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:46 AM
:lol: Class, you'll have to take a picture for us ;)

Good idea:D

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:46 AM
I despise Justine. But even I can admit she's been, far and away, the best player the last 5 years. Better than Serena. Better than Venus. Better than everyone. Her consistency is truly outstanding. Not to mention she's a damn good player. I don't know how anyone could rationally argue against it.

Operant word being "rationally". ;)

LUIS9
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:49 AM
I despise Justine. But even I can admit she's been, far and away, the best player the last 5 years. Better than Serena. Better than Venus. Better than everyone. Her consistency is truly outstanding. Not to mention she's a damn good player. I don't know how anyone could rationally argue against it.

Ditto, she'l never be my favorite but she earned my respect quite some time ago. At times I do find my self consciously rooting against her, oh look she can get overpowered easily by big two handed backhands when taken early and to the corners. Nevertheless, her fitness, stamina and determination are unquestionable and her commitment to tennis speaks for itself. Now thats commendable.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:51 AM
[QUOTE=Forehand_Volley;11451512]Here's the problem I have with your Martina analogy. You are only basing results of ONE year, vs my five year span of Henin's career since she won her first major.
No player on this planet has won more majors, more tournaments, more weeks at number one

The comparsion is quite fitting and you would spot it if you would only take the blinders off. Here is why?

Hingis peak year was '97- where she won three different majors. '98-2000 she won the AO twice and numerous other tournaments and finished #1.

Justine peak '03-'04 she won three different majors and has only won FO since plus numerous other tournaments and finished #1. You are obviously trying to convince us that these smaller tournaments are more valued than the majors and therefore determines how "great" a player is. You can comfort yourself with that but the rest of us know that is :bs:

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:52 AM
The length of this thread cracks me up!

"Winningest" usually, and I say, "usually", translates into the "best" -- and anything else is purely speculation.

Says who?

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:54 AM
What one should have done, in this situation is to create a thread to celebrate one's own favorite player. There is no need to bring negativity to a thread, and then to claim that the original starter and fans of she whom the thread is celebrating are insecure is quite pathetic, in my opinion.
Believe it or not, Henin is not my favorite player.:eek: I hope that doesn't upset Henin's fans. But I do respect her acccomplishments.

I am amazed and perplexed what she's managed to do with her career the years since her first major win, battling all these taller, more powerful players. Her resolve is quite remarkable. The type of determination only a unique champion could possess.

Its as if she understands she will never outhit or overpower them and has become quite comfortable in grinding-out matches and using her mental attributes to its fullest advantage. That is what makes her so unique. Henin has gotten a lot of mileage out her career thusfar. And she only seems to be getting better in some areas.

She's using her talents to its fullest ability and that's great to see in any tennis player or person living their life.

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:59 AM
The length of this thread cracks me up!
"Winningest" usually, and I say, "usually", translates into the "best" -- and anything else is purely speculation.

Depends on what you're winning. Some players win tier 3's and lower and I don't equate that winning majors and super tier 1's defeating the top players in the process. :rolleyes:

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Believe it or not, Henin is not my favorite player.:eek: I hope that doesn't upset Henin's fans. But I do respect her acccomplishments.

I am amazed and perplexed what she's managed to do with her career the years since her first major win, battling all these taller, more powerful players. Her resolve is quite remarkable. The type of determination only a unique champion could possess.

Its as if she understands she will never outhit or overpower them and has become quite comfortable in grinding-out matches and using her mental attributes to its fullest advantage. That is what makes her so unique. Henin has gotten a lot of mileage out her career thusfar. And she only seems to be getting better in some areas.

She's using her talents to its fullest ability and that's great to see in any tennis player or person living their life.

:bigclap: :yeah:

harloo
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:00 AM
Justine is the most consistent injury free player of the last five years. Venus and Serena don't play enough what's there to argue? I still think Serena is the best female tennis player to ever pick up a racket. However for the last few years she's hasn't been focused on the game and injuries have plagued her. It's interesting because Serena still holds two more slams than Justine but we'll see how that pans out. Will Justine surpass Serena in the slam count? Of course Justine missed two opportunities to silence the critics when she lost the 2006 AO and Wimbledon finals to Amelie. :)

freeandlonely
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:01 AM
Definitly Venus and Serena are great. (Hingis as well)
Justine Henin accomplished more in recent years.
And their all-time status racing not end yet.
So there are something we can only tell when they all retire.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:01 AM
Believe it or not, Henin is not my favorite player.:eek: I hope that doesn't upset Henin's fans. But I do respect her acccomplishments.

I am amazed and perplexed what she's managed to do with her career the years since her first major win, battling all these taller, more powerful players. Her resolve is quite remarkable. The type of determination only a unique champion could possess.

Its as if she understands she will never outhit or overpower them and has become quite comfortable in grinding-out matches and using her mental attributes to its fullest advantage. That is what makes her so unique. Henin has gotten a lot of mileage out her career thusfar. And she only seems to be getting better in some areas.

She's using her talents to its fullest ability and that's great to see in any tennis player or person living their life.

Justine hits harder than most players on tour. I can think of only a handful who generate more powerful shots off of both wings.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:03 AM
The comparsion is quite fitting and you would spot it if you would only take the blinders off. Here is why?

Hingis peak year was '97- where she won three different majors. '98-2000 she won the AO twice and numerous other tournaments and finished #1.

Justine peak '03-'04 she won three different majors and has only won FO since plus numerous other tournaments and finished #1. You are obviously trying to convince us that these smaller tournaments are more valued than the majors and therefore determines how "great" a player is. You can comfort yourself with that but the rest of us know that is :bs:
Were you aware that Henin has won more single majors since her inaugural win five years ago than any other woman tennis player on the planet?

When will you begin to rationally and factually discuss this subject matter? This makes the fifth time I've had to correct your purposeful historical errors. And maybe those historical errors are of great comfort to you along with the malignant denial.

You are not interested in discussing reality. Its now obvious you are trolling for attention.

Whatever the case, you are now on ignore.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:03 AM
Insecure is having to go onto a thread made clearly by the fan of one player to laud the accomplishments of one player and then to try to diminish those accomplishments. It's not necessary. The thread is celebratory, why come and be negative? What one should have done, in this situation is to create a thread to celebrate one's own favorite player. There is no need to bring negativity to a thread, and then to claim that the original starter and fans of she whom the thread is celebrating are insecure is quite pathetic, in my opinion.

This is a discussion board. We discuss things here. In other words, if someone posts something, they are implying that other have the right to agree or disagree, as they see fit.

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:04 AM
I still think Serena is the best female tennis player to ever pick up a racket.

Thank goodness for the First Amendment, but seriously, one word:

:secret: Steffi. :secret:

;)

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:06 AM
Thank goodness for the First Amendment, but seriously, one word:

:secret: Steffi. :secret:

;)

Serena is like Graf with a better backhand, a better serve, and slightly slower.

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:08 AM
Serena is like Graf with a better backhand, a better serve, and slightly slower.

And a few less Slams. ;)

:rolleyes:

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:08 AM
Justine hits harder than most players on tour. I can think of only a handful who generate more powerful shots off of both wings.
Well, I'm not a fan of the power index, but I am curious to see how Henin fared against Petrova and Jankovic. You think Henin hits harder than them, Sharapova, Clijster, Amelie, Davenport, Venus and Serena? Interesting.

Apoleb
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:10 AM
Serena is like Graf with a better backhand, a better serve, and slightly slower.

lol

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:12 AM
I'm not trying to diminish Justine's accomplishments. I'm just not allowing you to elevate Justine's accomplishments by discrediting Venus' and Serena's career. Their careers didn't begin in 2003 so why should I discount their successes pre '03 just to make Justine fans feel good.

Each champion had a period when they had peak years and can produce stats to support that but what is relevant is the present. Let's wait and see how she peforms at the majors before your "great" proclaimation. Yes, she's a great clay court player but I have great reservations for everything else. She has to win big like everyone else.

no one said anything about the sisters till you and supertard came here :banghead:

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:15 AM
I guess based off of stats, Justine has been the best in the past 5 years.. based on tennis ability, it is a different story- atlesat in my opinion. :)

:speakles: :bowdown:

DavenportForever
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:19 AM
in the absence of the Williamses

oh please. being fit and healthy is part of being a tennis players. Also learning how to limit your distractions.

Nicolás89
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:21 AM
I believe you thread title contains a false premise. Or at least an unproven one. Henin is the winningest player in the WTA in the past five years. That doesn't necessarily mean she's the best. An analogy might be made to Martina Hingis in 2000. She won five Tier I tournaments, plus the YEC, was ranked #1 the entire year, and was named ITF Player of the Year. She wasn't the best player on the tour.

I fully expect Henin to finish the year ranked #1. But if Venus or Serena finishes this year winning two slams, they're the best player. They just happened to miss some time with injury.

why if serena or venus wins more slams than justine this year proves that their are the best and that justine has won more slams on the past five years doesnt prove the same?.:wavey:

DavenportForever
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:22 AM
why if serena or venus wins more slams than justine this year proves that their are the best and that justine has won more slams on the past five years doesnt prove the same?.:wavey:

totally agree

hingisGOAT
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:26 AM
lmao @ those sour-ass grapes from vlover

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 03:47 AM
lmao @ those sour-ass grapes from vlover

:baby: I've noticed Hingis fans have now become Justine's surrogates.:lol: Serena and Venus have now left her behind so now they are on the Justine bandwagon.:haha: Good luck with that too.;) :wavey:

saniamania
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:24 AM
No.

Both Serena And Venus Williams was playing tennis in every year from 2003 and 2007. Injuries curtailed their participation at times, but over a five year period, its tough to discredit Henin's accomplishments. When you consider Henin's lengthy absence in 2004, all of these women in the WTA dealt with their own personal illness and injury over the past five years.

Serena and Venus each won (9) tournaments since the year Henin won her first major title, which has been five years.

Injury has become so woven in the fabric of the WTA, that in my opinion, it can't be used to discredit other players accomplishments over a five year period. Over a two year period, yes. But not five years.

Serena and Venus are two of the greatest of All-Time in my opinion. But Henin is proving herself to be as well. And that doesn't take away from Serena and Venus' accomplishments. Give credit where credit is due.

extremely well put:worship:

jazzfuzion
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:31 AM
Serena played 12 tournaments and Venus played 16 tournaments in 2004, while Justine played only 9.
Serena played 10 tournaments and Venus played 12 in 2005, while Justine played only 9.
Guess what? Justine had a better year in both those years ;)

Thank you.This says everything clearly.

I guess they say your real self is only as delusional as your message board self.

Sad.

starin
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:35 AM
how pointlessly and stupidly bias and overall worthless.

How Serena not so Quitely became the Best Player in the past 9 years.

Serena has won 8 slams.
Henin 6 slams
Venus 6 slams
Everyone else less than that.

Also How Sharapova loudly became best player under 21 since 2004.
She has won 2 slams.

And how Mauresmo has tied Justine as the best player since 2006.
Justine and Mauresmo tied with 2 slams.

How Venus became the best player since 2007 Wimbledon. She has won one slams while noone else has won any.

:rolleyes:

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:37 AM
no one said anything about the sisters till you and supertard came here :banghead:

it was comnig anyway :(

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:38 AM
how pointlessly and stupidly bias and overall worthless.

How Serena not so Quitely became the Best Player in the past 9 years.

Serena has won 8 slams.
Henin 6 slams
Venus 6 slams
Everyone else less than that.

Also How Sharapova loudly became best player under 21 since 2004.
She has won 2 slams.

And how Mauresmo has tied Justine as the best player since 2006.
Justine and Mauresmo tied with 2 slams.

How Venus became the best player since 2007 Wimbledon. She has won one slams while noone else has won any.

:rolleyes:
Whether any of us like it or not, this is Henin's Era, from the year she won her first slam until the present. And until any player(s) can surpass or stop her results (slam wins, tournament wins, weeks at number one) it will continue to be Henin's Era.

AcesHigh
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:39 AM
how pointlessly and stupidly bias and overall worthless.

How Serena not so Quitely became the Best Player in the past 9 years.

Serena has won 8 slams.
Henin 6 slams
Venus 6 slams
Everyone else less than that.

Also How Sharapova loudly became best player under 21 since 2004.
She has won 2 slams.

And how Mauresmo has tied Justine as the best player since 2006.
Justine and Mauresmo tied with 2 slams.

How Venus became the best player since 2007 Wimbledon. She has won one slams while noone else has won any.

:rolleyes:


:worship: Very well put. Threads like these can be a little ridiculous at times.

AcesHigh
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:40 AM
Whether any of us like it or not, this is Henin's Era, from the year she won her first slam until the present. And until any player can surpass her results, it will continue to be Henin's Era.

:haha: how is it Henin's era?? If i'm not mistaken, she was a big-time player back in 2001 too. Please..:rolleyes:

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:42 AM
Justine fans are really pushing it here. :(

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:42 AM
:haha: how is it Henin's era?? If i'm not mistaken, she was a big-time player back in 2001 too. Please..:rolleyes:
She hadn't won a grand slam event in 2001. Henin's Era began the moment the year she won her first slam event in 2003. And no one has been able to overtake her historically since.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:44 AM
Justine fans are really pushing it here. :(
Because history knocked you upside the head?

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:45 AM
Whether any of us like it or not, this is Henin's Era, from the year she won her first slam until the present. And until any player(s) can surpass or stop her results (slam wins, tournament wins, weeks at number one) it will continue to be Henin's Era.

You're just putting artificial limits on what defines an era.

What's so special about five years ago, besides it being when Justine won her firts major? If anything, 1999 was the beginning of this generation.

And Serena is def. the greatest going that criteria.


So, Serena's been the greatest player for the past nine years.

Serena's been the greatest player for the past eight years.

Serena's been the greatest player for the past seven years.

And so on.

Apoleb
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:47 AM
She has been the best player since 2003. That's quite obvious. She won more slams than anybody else and has been BY FAR the most consistent.

She still has to show that she's the best in this era cause atm Serena still is. For this, she has to pass Serena's overall and 2002/2003 accomplishments.

supergrunt
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:48 AM
Because history knocked you upside the head?

Lets see.. history
Serena leads 6-5
Venus leads 7-1
Serena has 8 slams
Venus is tied at 6

I know the history but I thought the Williams fans were living in the past. Make up your mind; past or present? :hehehe: :p

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:53 AM
She has been the best player since 2003. That's quite obvious. She won more slams than anybody else and has been BY FAR the most consistent.

She still has to show that she's the best in this era cause atm Serena still is. For this, she has to pass Serena's overall and 2002/2003 accomplishments.
The next three to five years will tell us who is the best of this Era. Someone in the WTA will have to step it up to stop Henin because she's not slowing down any. And if Henin's record against today's top 20 since Henin's Era began in '03 (when she won her first slam) is any indication, it will take a huge effort on someone's part.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:56 AM
The next three to five years will tell us who is the best of this Era. Someone in the WTA will have to step it up to stop Henin because she's not slowing down any. And if Henin's record against today's top 20 is any indication, it will take a huge effort on someone's part.

All that needs to happen is for Serena to win a slam a year, like Justine's doing now. That doesn't seem too unlikely.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:01 AM
All that needs to happen is for Serena to win a slam a year, like Justine's doing now. That doesn't seem too unlikely.
Henin is the only player from her generation to win a singles grand slam event for five years in a row. No one else from this generation has done that, ever. Its that type of consistency which is propelling Henin historically.

Serena Williams, Maria Sharapova and Venus Williams have that ability. There's no doubt.

But from the other WTA players standpoint, how do you unravel what Henin has slowly and quietly achieved over the past five years? Henin has endured a divorce, family problems, an accusation of doping, a severe long-term viral illness, two highly publicized on-court scandals (2003 and 2006), Fed Cup controversies, and a ton of bad press over the years. Yet she still plows forward and maintains this great record and focus since her first slam win in 2003.

How do you beat that? Seriously. Everything imaginable has been thrown at her and she still wins. Its kinda crazy how someone can put all of those distractions out of their sight and keep focus on winning. Very few people could do that. I believe Henin is the toughest of her generation for that fact.

Its been Henin vs The World, and she's winning.

hingisGOAT
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:22 AM
Its been Henin vs The World, and she's winning.

Indeed. 10 pages in, and only two posters vocally disagree: supergrunt and vlover. that pretty much says it all :tape:

starin
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:24 AM
Whether any of us like it or not, this is Henin's Era, from the year she won her first slam until the present. And until any player(s) can surpass or stop her results (slam wins, tournament wins, weeks at number one) it will continue to be Henin's Era.

wow how is this an era?
dont' be such a idiot
Henin is the best player right now at this moment because she's no.1 and she's a real no.1 not the faux no.1's that have been around the last few years.

You arbitrarily chose 2003 as the starting year to compare Henin to other players. When if you go back one year to 2002 Henin immediately doesn't become the best player anymore. lol.
And if we're going to do a comparison where we only start when a player won their first slam. Then why not do it for Serena? ohhh yeah that's right cuz if you do that then Henin becomes 2nd banana. how convenient for you. like i said before, what a useless thread.

tae04
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:30 AM
I'm a Williams fan and I can admit the greatness of Henin. People be real. She was just in like 5 straight slam finals. She makes it at least to the semis of every tournament she plays 85-90% of the time. She should be applauded, nobody else has played at a higher win rate then her.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:30 AM
wow how is this an era?
dont' be such a idiot
Have you seen your avatar?

Henin is the best player right now at this moment because she's no.1 and she's a real no.1 not the faux no.1's that have been around the last few years.

You arbitrarily chose 2003 as the starting year to compare Henin to other players. When if you go back one year to 2002 Henin immediately doesn't become the best player anymore. lol.
And if we're going to do a comparison where we only start when a player won their first slam. Then why not do it for Serena? ohhh yeah that's right cuz if you do that then Henin becomes 2nd banana. how convenient for you. like i said before, what a useless thread.

Incorrect. And if you had read the thread in its entirety, you would have viewed that explanation before blurting.

2003 was the first year that Henin won a grand slam title, which began her streak of five straight years of grand slam wins, hence, Henin's Era. And until any of the current players in the WTA can surpass Henin's grand slam totals, tournament wins, record vs the top 20, semifinal appearances, weeks at number one, etc. etc. while she is still winning consecutive grand slam event years, it will continue to be Henin's Era. At the point Henin is no longer winning grand slam tournaments, begins losing consistently to top 20 players, it will no longer be Henin's Era.

So, if you disagree with me. Tell me. Who in the last five years, since Henin's grand slam streak began, has proven themselves to be a better tennis player H-2-H, total slam wins, weeks at number one, semifinal appearances, tournament wins, etc. etc.

Hold off on the personal attacks, Junior. You don't want to rattle my cage.

David55
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:31 AM
wow how is this an era?
dont' be such a idiot
Henin is the best player right now at this moment because she's no.1 and she's a real no.1 not the faux no.1's that have been around the last few years.

You arbitrarily chose 2003 as the starting year to compare Henin to other players. When if you go back one year to 2002 Henin immediately doesn't become the best player anymore. lol.
And if we're going to do a comparison where we only start when a player won their first slam. Then why not do it for Serena? ohhh yeah that's right cuz if you do that then Henin becomes 2nd banana. how convenient for you. like i said before, what a useless thread.
A multiple slam winner's "best years" almost always start with the year when they won their first slam. Serena is a glaring exception because she won her first several years before she won her 2nd.

Donny
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:33 AM
A multiple slam winner's "best years" almost always start with the year when they won their first slam. Serena is a glaring exception because she won her first several years before she won her 2nd.

Yea, but his point was, Henin's best years still haven't exceeded Serena's best years, and Serena happens to still be winning slams.

Henin's been the best player since she won her first slam, but the same is also true of Serena.

tae04
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:34 AM
there are more than 5 years in a decade :p

And there is more than the 1.5 years Serena was dominate. Besides that Serena has been injured and erratic. Serena has wasted 4 years. She should have about 13-15 slams right now!

mirzalover
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:39 AM
I dont see why anyone is getting up set over this. Ok since 2003 she has won six slams, 4 french( three in a row) and some other ones. She has been the best player to me since 2004 since serena still won 2 slams in 2003 so I wouldn't call that a year that in this so called henin era. Plus people dont really care about so called eras they remember good matches and people who have ass loads of slams. Right now Justine Serena and Venus will ne remember most, and if things stay like they are it will be Serena, Venus and Justine tied.

David55
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:40 AM
Yea, but his point was, Henin's best years still haven't exceeded Serena's best years, and Serena happens to still be winning slams.

Henin's been the best player since she won her first slam, but the same is also true of Serena.
Yeah, but OTOH in the last couple years Serena has been clawing her way just to get 1 slam every 2 years whereas Justine has been steadily winning a slam per year and winning other titles and keeping a very high ranking.
Justine is not totally dominating. No one has done that since Serena in '02, but Justine is overall "the best" of the last few years, by default.

majuu
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:41 AM
The thing that is honestly f***ing HILARIOUS is that this thread originally had nothing to do with Serena or the Williamses....Justine fans and other players' fans could appreciate the thread and praise her accomplishments, but then comes the usual rabble of GM trolls who dislike Justine so much they have to make it into another Serena is better then Justine thread. Special mention goes to supergrunt who cant seem to ever post a thread unless it contains the word 'Serena'.

Hashim.
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:18 AM
:yeah:

Sam L
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:22 AM
A new Queen ascends to the throne. :bowdown:

mdterp01
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:31 AM
As the title shows, Justine is the best player over the past 5 years. The best player of her generation as was said by others? No.

AcesHigh
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:40 AM
Justine has only won more than 1 slam in a year once. She is just consistent over the last few years, while other players have been better during those years.

In 2003, Serena was the best player and only because of her injury did she fall off the map.
In 2004, sharapova was the best player
In 2005 it was Kim
In 2006, Mauresmo was the best player.

I don't see how it can be "Henin's era" when she was even the best player for any year during her "reign"???

JustineTime
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:45 AM
Henin is the only player from her generation to win a singles grand slam event for five years in a row. No one else from this generation has done that, ever. Its that type of consistency which is propelling Henin historically.

Serena Williams, Maria Sharapova and Venus Williams have that ability. There's no doubt.

But from the other WTA players standpoint, how do you unravel what Henin has slowly and quietly achieved over the past five years? Henin has endured a divorce, family problems, an accusation of doping, a severe long-term viral illness, two highly publicized on-court scandals (2003 and 2006), Fed Cup controversies, and a ton of bad press over the years. Yet she still plows forward and maintains this great record and focus since her first slam win in 2003.

How do you beat that? Seriously. Everything imaginable has been thrown at her and she still wins. Its kinda crazy how someone can put all of those distractions out of their sight and keep focus on winning. Very few people could do that. I believe Henin is the toughest of her generation for that fact.

Its been Henin vs The World, and she's winning.

WOW! :eek:

I consider myself fairly competent with the written word, but I don't know if I could have said it that concisely or succinctly. WOW!

I already repped you for that post earlier, so all I can do at this point is :hatoff:.

Wow. Nicely done. Well put. :yeah: :bigclap:

mdterp01
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:51 AM
Justine has only won more than 1 slam in a year once. She is just consistent over the last few years, while other players have been better during those years.

In 2003, Serena was the best player and only because of her injury did she fall off the map.
In 2004, sharapova was the best player
In 2005 it was Kim
In 2006, Mauresmo was the best player.

I don't see how it can be "Henin's era" when she was even the best player for any year during her "reign"???

Good point. However, tennis is more than about the slams. It is what you'll be most remembered for. However, the thread starters stats about Justine's record since 2003 is very good. She's been very consistent and deserves the kudos in being consistent since 2003. However, I wouldn't call it dominance because even though the 4 grand slams aren't the only part of the year, the slams ARE the most important tourneys of the year. A truly dominant player wins multiple slams a year and is not just a locked in guarantee at one of them.

darrinbaker00
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:55 AM
I don't know about anyone else, but all the hair-splitting in this thread has been cracking me up. If Justine Henin is the most consistent player over the last five years, and she's had the best results over the last five years, then she's been the best player over the last five years. Does that take away from what others have accomplished during that time? Of course not, but since 2003, Justine has been The Woman.

littlebin
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:26 AM
In 2003, Justine was the best player. 2 Slams and 2 Semi in Slams definitely are better than Serena's 2 Slams and 1 Semi and 1 DNP.
Also more titles and more prize money in WTA tour in 2003 for Justine. No doubt a better year than Serena.

Serena loss less matches, but she didn't finish the whole season.
Injury is part of tennis, Serena played a power tennis beyond her body, deal with it.


Justine has only won more than 1 slam in a year once. She is just consistent over the last few years, while other players have been better during those years.

In 2003, Serena was the best player and only because of her injury did she fall off the map.
In 2004, sharapova was the best player
In 2005 it was Kim
In 2006, Mauresmo was the best player.

I don't see how it can be "Henin's era" when she was even the best player for any year during her "reign"???

mdterp01
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:30 AM
Yes, I will deal with Serena having the most slams of any active player and being the ONLY player who can play such little tennis, be ranked 81, and come out of nowhere to win a GRAND SLAM any time. I'll deal with it just fine. :lol:

But yes, there is a bunch of hair splitting to this thread as was said. Justine has been the best female tennis player since 2003. The stats tell the tale. Her mental toughness is right there at the top and she is an all court player who has an amazing game for her height. That alone is remarkable in my book. Definitely not a player I root for, but a player whose tennis is beautiful to watch. Her backhand is DA BOMB!!

ZeroSOFInfinity
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:40 AM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

Since when do you change from an annoying troll to the Incredible Sulk? :help:

JakenPhx
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:42 AM
I was asked by three people to start a thread about Henin's career since her ascent in 2003. She is on the cusp of being YE #1 for 3 of the past 5 years and her career stats since the year she won her first major explain why.

This thread is intended on celebrating Henin's accomplishments since her ascent in the WTA began in 2003. She's often overlooked for her accomplishments when compared to today's power players, but her numbers tell how she's surpassed her more powerful peers during this time period.

No one in the WTA has collectively been better than Henin the past five years. I looked at Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova and the Williams Sisters numbers as well. I posted Clijsters and Davenports numbers in another thread because they were closest to Henin.

Henin has won more tournaments, won more single majors, made it to more semifinals and finals...and the list goes on. Her H-2-H record against today's top 20 since the year she won her first major really tells why she's been so great the past five years. Henin has a winning record over every player in the top 20 over the past five years with the exception of Venus Williams.

She's reached the semifinals 51 times of the 59 tournaments she's played since 2003. :eek:

She's reached the finals 38 times of the 59 tournaments she's played since 2003.:eek:

She won 29 of the 38 times she reached the finals in tournaments she's played since 2003.:eek:


Let's look at the numbers year-by-year:

2007 (FO Champion, #1 Ranking, USO TBD, YEC TBD)
Tournaments Played (10)
Semifinals (10)
Finals (7)


2006 (#1 YE Ranking, FO Champion, YEC Winner)
Tournaments Played (13)
Semifinals (12)
Finals (10)

2005 (FO Champion)
Tournaments Played (9)
Semifinals (5)
Finals (5)

2004 (Olympic Champion, AO Champion)
Tournaments Played (9)
Semifinals (7)
Finals (5)

2003 (#1 YE Ranking, French and USO Champion)
Tournaments Played (18)
Semifinals (17)
Finals (11)



Grand Slam Singles Victories since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (6) Olympic Gold (1)
S. Williams (4)
V. Williams (2)
M. Sharapova (2)
A. Mauresmo (2)
A. Myskina (1)
S. Kuznetsova (1)
K. Clijsters (1)



Weeks at Number One since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (78+)
L. Davenport (60)
A. Mauresmo (39)
S. Williams (35)
K. Clijsters (19)
M. Sharapova (14)


Tournament Wins since Henin's Ascent in 2003:

J. Henin (29)
K. Clijsters (24)
A. Mauresmo (16)
M. Sharapova (16)
L. Davenport (14)



There seems to be an overwhelming perception that Justine is only a clay court player. However, her hardcourt results would surprise many since the year she won her first grand slam title in 2003. Henin has won more tournaments on hardcourt than she has clay :eek: :


Henin Hardcourt Record and tournament wins since 2003:

131-19 (87%)

17 out of Henin's 29 tournament wins since her ascent in 2003 have been on hardcourt.:eek:


Henin Claycourt Record since 2003:

75-6 (93%)

10 out of Henin's 29 tournament wins since her ascent in 2003 have been on clay.



Henin vs Today's Top 20 Since Her Ascent in 2003 (78-18):

Henin has a winning record against every player in the today's top 20 since her ascent in 2003 except the great Venus Williams (0-1) January 2003 AO.:eek:

Henin v 2 Maria Sharapova (5-2)
Henin v 3 Jelena Jankovic (7-0)
Henin v 4 Ana Ivanovic (2-0)
Henin v 5 Svetlana Kuznetsova (14-2)
Henin v 6 Anna Chakvetadze (2-0)
Henin v 7 Amelie Mauresmo (8-5)
Henin v 8 Serena Williams (4-2)
Henin v 9 Nadia Petrova (10-2)
Henin v 10 Daniela Hantuchova (1-0)
Henin v 11 Marion Bartoli (2-1)
Henin v 12 Martina Hingis (2-0)
Henin v 13 Venus Williams (0-1)
Henin v 14 Dinara Safina (3-0)
Henin v 15 Nicole Vaidisova (3-0)
Henin v 16 Patty Schnyder (6-1)
Henin v 17 Elena Dementieva (4-2)
Henin v 18 Shahar Peer (1-0)
Henin v 19 Tatiana Golovin (2-0)
Henin v 20 Sybille Bammer (2-0)

Not Included (since Henin's ascent in 2003):

Henin v K. Clijsters (8-5)
Henin v L. Davenport (8-0)
Henin v J. Capriati (3-0)
Henin v M. Seles (2-0)
Henin v M. Pierce (4-1)
Great work! This is truly a testimonial to an underestimated, not heralded often enough champion.

ZeroSOFInfinity
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:45 AM
I'm going to print it out and put it in a nice frame next to my framed pictures of Justine and her many, many trophies :) I have a Justine wall in my spare room :lol:

Hmm... maybe you should turn the room to a Juju Museam or a shrine in her honour :lol:

justine schnyder
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:55 AM
WOW Justine.!!!
what stats... that's amazing... keep going!!!
---just win wimbledon 2008 and you'll be oficially one of the greatest (although for me you already are)---

Petersmiler
Aug 20th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Incredible. Thanks for this thread, Mr Volley.

If only you had put 'Of course, Serena is still the most accomplished over her career but....'. Then you wouldn't get all the usual trolls in here.

Si_Hi
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:04 AM
in the absence of the Williamses

:haha: :haha:
:help: @ some williamses fans....

Si_Hi
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:09 AM
And there is more than the 1.5 years Serena was dominate. Besides that Serena has been injured and erratic. Serena has wasted 4 years. She should have about 13-15 slams right now!

:weirdo: :weirdo: :haha: :haha:
it's serena all the way.........:tape:

Thanx4nothin
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:11 AM
Yeah she's the best player over the last few years in terms of the smaller tournaments and the rankings, but slam wise, she isn't posting such amazing stats, she's in the finals, but unless i's the french she can't win them these days.

schorsch
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:29 AM
Yeah she's the best player over the last few years in terms of the smaller tournaments and the rankings, but slam wise, she isn't posting such amazing stats, she's in the finals, but unless i's the french she can't win them these days.

we know henin doesnt overpush it with tournas anymore, because her body isnt as strong anymore. so she chooses her tournas wisely. but how come she actually plays enough tournaments and goes deep in them and wins loads of them?

-> its because she's committed to the sport and the wta TOUR. she travels around the world and plays tournaments other than the GS and thats something that sets her apart from serena. serena only shows up for the GS, Miami and 2 or 3 other tournaments which arent important thus she tanks them, withdraws supposedly injured,ill,whatever etc. if you have a lot of time to prepare for the GS and you dont have so much stress obviously, because of jetlags, tiring tournaments, press conferences all this stuff... then you got an advantage over all the other players. there are some that need warmup tournaments though, but serena isnt one of them. she's experienced enough.

fact is though : juju wasnt at the AO where serena won. and she beat her at RG though she played clay tournaments and wimbledon though she played eastbourne.

...

Petersmiler
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:32 AM
Yeah she's the best player over the last few years in terms of the smaller tournaments and the rankings, but slam wise, she isn't posting such amazing stats, she's in the finals, but unless i's the french she can't win them these days.


So in that five years, who has won more slams than her?

moby
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:49 AM
So in that five years, who has won more slams than her?Since 2003, no player has won more slams than Justine. Since 2003, no player has won slams at more than two different locations... except Justine.

I hate it when people perpetuate the myth that Justine can only win at the French. Not just because it's not true, but also because it's not like anyone else is capable of winning a variety of slams in recent years.

goldenlox
Aug 20th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Justine has won 5 of the last 16 majors. No one else has more than 2 of the last 16.
There's no reason to have this discussion, except that there are so many Williams fans on this board, who don't follow tennis, and just spam GM.

pancake
Aug 20th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Justine has only won more than 1 slam in a year once. She is just consistent over the last few years, while other players have been better during those years.

In 2003, Serena was the best player and only because of her injury did she fall off the map.
In 2004, sharapova was the best player
In 2005 it was Kim
In 2006, Mauresmo was the best player.

I don't see how it can be "Henin's era" when she was even the best player for any year during her "reign"???

Let's say...
There are 5 good students in a class
A gets a full mark(assuming 100 here) in Maths and in the other subjects A gets 90
B also gets 100 in History but only gets 90 in other subjects
Same for C and D who also top in one subject and do well in the others
Only E, gets 99 in every subject, never be the best in particular one, but he/she can still be the best in the class.
You really don't have to be the best in every or even one particular year but it's all about overall results.

But of course, it's up to everyone to view how one could be called the best.

Leo_DFP
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:13 PM
You guys can sit here and come up with little technicalities and lies all you want but the truth is... Serena is the best player of the past decade. :shrug:

He's talking about the last 5 years - can't you read the thread title?

And this decade isn't over yet, so Henin might surpass her. I'm not a big Henin fan but this is a good thread. Her consistency is amazing. And she has been the best for a while, always winning at least one Slam a year.

Expat
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:20 PM
this thread will be settled if she beats serena or venus yet again at the US open or venus or serena win the US open
IF venus or serena win the US open then year also will belong to a williams
2003- s williams
2004- sharapova
2005- clijsters
2006- mauresmo
2007 - open yet (justine leading a wide margin so far) so she needs the williams sisters to lose this year for her to become no 1 this year

all this talk of being the best just doesn't stick


she is the most consistent not the best

she is one of the big 3 of this decade but not the best and even of the last 5 years shes the most consistent

Ntour
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:25 PM
this thread will be settled if she beats serena or venus yet again at the US open or venus or serena win the US open
IF venus or serena win the US open then year also will belong to a williams
2003- s williams
2004- sharapova
2005- clijsters
2006- mauresmo
2007 - open yet (justine leading a wide margin so far) so she needs the williams sisters to lose this year for her to become no 1 this year

all this talk of being the best just doesn't stick


she is the most consistent not the best

she is one of the big 3 of this decade but not the best and even of the last 5 years shes the most consistent

again henin was better in 03 than serena

The Kaz
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:28 PM
Justine :worship:

Matt01
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:28 PM
this thread will be settled if she beats serena or venus yet again at the US open or venus or serena win the US open
IF venus or serena win the US open then year also will belong to a williams
2003- s williams
2004- sharapova
2005- clijsters
2006- mauresmo
2007 - open yet (justine leading a wide margin so far) so she needs the williams sisters to lose this year for her to become no 1 this year

Justine was the best plyer of the year in 2003, not Serena.
2006 is also disputable. Other than the number of GS wins, Justine's stats were better than Momo's. Even the number of GS finals.

Expat
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:30 PM
Justine was the best plyer of the year in 2003, not Serena.
2006 is also disputable. Other than the number of GS wins, Justine's stats were better than Momo's. Even the number of GS finals.
hell ya serena doesnt play the US open and she wins by default
that makes her a better player i dont think so
the count of slams matter so does the quality
cant say abt 2006 she was the better player but amelie got the more slams

Serval
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Amazing player :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Justine was the best plyer of the year in 2003, not Serena.
2006 is also disputable. Other than the number of GS wins, Justine's stats were better than Momo's. Even the number of GS finals.

it's titles that count baby ask the woman in your avatar, not to mention Amelie kicked Justine's ass to take A.O and Wimbledon titles.:worship:

freeandlonely
Aug 20th, 2007, 04:58 PM
it's titles that count baby ask the woman in your avatar, not to mention Amelie kicked Justine's ass to take A.O and Wimbledon titles.:worship:

A.O.:mad:

jazzfuzion
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:33 PM
what makes me smile is the fact that universal disapproval of supergrunt and vlover is greater than universal approval of thread title.

its funny.everyone knows what the real bullshit is and the real bullshit is the existence of said personnels.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:36 PM
A.O.:mad:

What's that mean? Justine got her ass kicked by Amelie at both of those slams

thrust
Aug 20th, 2007, 05:54 PM
Amelie did beat a healthy Justine in the Wimbledon final, and a sick Justine in the AO final. Justine beat a healthy Amelie in the YEC final and was the #1 player at the end of the year. Justine also ended 2003 as the #1 player.

MistyGrey
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:12 PM
2003 and 2006 were Justine's years. Infact 2004 was pretty much her year as well.

jujufreak
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:30 PM
Well, Lindsay really left me feeling odd about this five year period. She is the only one besides Henin to end a calendar year at number one in the past five years and she did it twice. Her results in 2004 and 2005 were great, but the lack of wins at the majors and her overall performance since Henin's ascent wasn't as consistently good as Henin's. Clijsters was another player with similar great play, but falling short. H-2-H really told the story.

However, Clijsters was the only player to win more hardcourt titles than Henin during this period. 18 to Henin's 17.

and that's partly because Justine never played in Stanford and LA :)

terjw
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:35 PM
this thread will be settled if she beats serena or venus yet again at the US open or venus or serena win the US open
IF venus or serena win the US open then year also will belong to a williams
2003- s williams
2004- sharapova
2005- clijsters
2006- mauresmo
2007 - open yet (justine leading a wide margin so far) so she needs the williams sisters to lose this year for her to become no 1 this year

all this talk of being the best just doesn't stick


she is the most consistent not the best

she is one of the big 3 of this decade but not the best and even of the last 5 years shes the most consistent

Even if I agreed with you who was the actual best those years - Justine is rigjht up there every year and is the best over those 5 years. You are nitpicking with words to say she's the most consistent and not the best. What other player has a better record over the whole period?

Now if we take those years - we can split them up.
2003 - the first part it was Serena up to Wimbledon. After that it was Justine and Kim with Justine emerging on top. Justine got the USO, Kim got the YEC.
2004 - At the start Justine. But after she was out that year - the Russians took over. And Sharapova emerged as the best of the Russians.
2005 - Justine during the clay season - then Kim on the American hardcourt season with Daveport consistent throughout.
2006 - Amelie 1st half of the year. Justine and Maria 2nd half of year. Perhaps Justine overall throughout the year.

What this tells me is that Justine features prominently all the time. But she doesn't dominate the game like payers in the past used to. We haven't had a player who I've regarded as the best player from start to finish throughout a whole calendar year since 2002.

However - this year could be different. Justine does have a very real prospect of being the #1 player throughout the whole year during 2007. Something that hasn't happened during this time. Even then - she doesn't to me look dominating like she just can't be beaten - though she is the best.

I believe Forehand Volley has been respectful of the other players as well as presenting the unrefutable case that Justine is the best over the last 5 years. So long as it is best and not dominating.

Thanx4nothin
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:36 PM
2000 - Venus
2001 - Venus
2002- Serena
2003 - Serena 4 titles including 2 slams from 41 matches to Henin's 86 matches and 8 titles, Serena likely would have won the US Open and most other things she had played if she hadn't been injured. Form wise Serena would have been the best, Henin cklearly benefited from her injury.
2004 - Sharapova Henin tie, both won 2 big titles Justine the AO & Olympics and Masha wimbledon adn the YEC.
2005 - Clijsters, the most titles and overall best results of the slam winners in 2005
2006 - Mauresmo, she won the most slams beating the second best player of the year in both finals cementing her position as the best player of the year
2007 (so far)- Henin, mos titles. Won the French as is expected and a host of tier 2's along with 1 tier 1. Final at Wimbledon, she has been a beacon of consistency, mind you if either of the other 2 slam winners this year win the US Open, she will be relegated to second best just like 2006.

Just thought i would start from the noughties lol!

littlebin
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:42 PM
2003-Justine!
2 Slams + 2 Semi in Slams > 2 Slams + 1 Semi + 1 DNP
8 tiles > 4 tiles

Unfortunately, there is no "if" in 2003, it already a fact.

2000 - Venus
2001 - Venus
2002- Serena
2003 - Serena 4 titles including 2 slams from 41 matches to Henin's 86 matches and 8 titles, Serena likely would have won the US Open and most other things she had played if she hadn't been injured. Form wise Serena would have been the best, Henin cklearly benefited from her injury.
2004 - Sharapova Henin tie, both won 2 big titles Justine the AO & Olympics and Masha wimbledon adn the YEC.
2005 - Clijsters, the most titles and overall best results of the slam winners in 2005
2006 - Mauresmo, she won the most slams beating the second best player of the year in both finals cementing her position as the best player of the year
2007 (so far)- Henin, mos titles. Won the French as is expected and a host of tier 2's along with 1 tier 1. Final at Wimbledon, she has been a beacon of consistency, mind you if either of the other 2 slam winners this year win the US Open, she will be relegated to second best just like 2006.

Just thought i would start from the noughties lol!

mykarma
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:43 PM
The thing that is honestly f***ing HILARIOUS is that this thread originally had nothing to do with Serena or the Williamses....Justine fans and other players' fans could appreciate the thread and praise her accomplishments, but then comes the usual rabble of GM trolls who dislike Justine so much they have to make it into another Serena is better then Justine thread. Special mention goes to supergrunt who cant seem to ever post a thread unless it contains the word 'Serena'.
If the thread said that Serena was the best, Justine's fans would argue that Justine has been the best in the last 5 years and I don't think you'd find it hilarious. :shrug:

jujufreak
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Believe it or not, Henin is not my favorite player.:eek: I hope that doesn't upset Henin's fans. But I do respect her acccomplishments.


that makes it even better :D

Expat
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:50 PM
2003-Justine!
2 Slams + 2 Semi in Slams > 2 Slams + 1 Semi + 1 DNP
8 tiles > 4 tiles

Unfortunately, there is no "if" in 2003, it already a fact.

even without the injury she practically owned henin for that year except for when she won with the infamous hand
whos the better player u decide if they had equal no of slams

jujufreak
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:51 PM
Whether any of us like it or not, this is Henin's Era, from the year she won her first slam until the present. And until any player(s) can surpass or stop her results (slam wins, tournament wins, weeks at number one) it will continue to be Henin's Era.

hear hear !!!

And I like it :cool: :D ;)

jujufreak
Aug 20th, 2007, 06:59 PM
And there is more than the 1.5 years Serena was dominate. Besides that Serena has been injured and erratic.

that's a fact :yeah:

Bruno71
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:00 PM
If people want to put an asterisk on 2003 because of Serena's injury, why doesn't the same go for Justine's illness in 2004? And yet, like Serena, she still won some important titles. Personally, I don't believe in asterisks...injuries & illnesses are unfortunate, but they're part of the game.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:00 PM
Serena is easily the better player.

Justine has had stellar results the past five years

terjw
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:17 PM
2000 - Venus
2001 - Venus
2002- Serena
2003 - Serena 4 titles including 2 slams from 41 matches to Henin's 86 matches and 8 titles, Serena likely would have won the US Open and most other things she had played if she hadn't been injured. Form wise Serena would have been the best, Henin cklearly benefited from her injury.
2004 - Sharapova Henin tie, both won 2 big titles Justine the AO & Olympics and Masha wimbledon adn the YEC.
2005 - Clijsters, the most titles and overall best results of the slam winners in 2005
2006 - Mauresmo, she won the most slams beating the second best player of the year in both finals cementing her position as the best player of the year
2007 (so far)- Henin, mos titles. Won the French as is expected and a host of tier 2's along with 1 tier 1. Final at Wimbledon, she has been a beacon of consistency, mind you if either of the other 2 slam winners this year win the US Open, she will be relegated to second best just like 2006.

Just thought i would start from the noughties lol!

DW--Serenafan: Just a couple of things. I think the threadstarter's 5 years is a more natural starting point:

The thread starter reasonably chose 2003 because it was Justine's first slam.
.
However, I also think that it's very natural to set a break at Wimbledon 2003 as opposed to using any arbitrary year for the sake of it (like it's start of the century). Because it is clearly a point of time which marked the end of the Williams Sisters' and Serena's utter domination era. We'd had Hingis domination followed by Sisters' domination - first Venus, then Serena. After that point - there is some debate over who is the best player in each particular individual year right up til today. Though I can't understand anyone not thinking Justine hasn't been the overall best since then.
.
If you have to pick one player for 2003 - it has to be Justine. I'd prefer to say Serena up to Wimby 2003, then Justine. Results and rankings say Justine. But if you have to pick one player for the year - it's really a no brainer. It has to be based on what the players did and actual results - not woulda, coulda, shoulda arguments.

shap_half
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:18 PM
If the thread said that Serena was the best, Justine's fans would argue that Justine has been the best in the last 5 years and I don't think you'd find it hilarious. :shrug:

If if if if if if if if
why dont you deal with what's actually happening?

shap_half
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:23 PM
2000 - Venus
2001 - Venus
2002- Serena
2003 - Serena 4 titles including 2 slams from 41 matches to Henin's 86 matches and 8 titles, Serena likely would have won the US Open and most other things she had played if she hadn't been injured. Form wise Serena would have been the best, Henin cklearly benefited from her injury.
2004 - Sharapova Henin tie, both won 2 big titles Justine the AO & Olympics and Masha wimbledon adn the YEC.
2005 - Clijsters, the most titles and overall best results of the slam winners in 2005
2006 - Mauresmo, she won the most slams beating the second best player of the year in both finals cementing her position as the best player of the year
2007 (so far)- Henin, mos titles. Won the French as is expected and a host of tier 2's along with 1 tier 1. Final at Wimbledon, she has been a beacon of consistency, mind you if either of the other 2 slam winners this year win the US Open, she will be relegated to second best just like 2006.

Just thought i would start from the noughties lol!

If we're gonna go by your 2003 reasoning, then Justine should be the 2004 AND 2005 choices. Justine would have likely won the rest of the tournaments she played had she not be stricken with an illness in Amelia Island in 2004. Justine would have likely won the rest of the tournaments she played she not gotten injured in 2005.

faste5683
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Tournaments Played By Justine Henin since the year she won her first major title in 2003: 59 (29 wins)

Tournaments Played By Serena Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 41 (9 wins)

Tournaments Played By Venus Williams since the year Justine won her first major title in 2003: 52 (9 wins)




:eek:

:wavey:

DA FOREHAND
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:30 PM
If we're gonna go by your 2003 reasoning, then Justine should be the 2004 AND 2005 choices. Justine would have likely won the rest of the tournaments she played had she not be stricken with an illness in Amelia Island in 2004. Justine would have likely won the rest of the tournaments she played she not gotten injured in 2005.

Not sure when she got "injured" but if Wimbledon was part of the mix I highly doubt she would have beaten the Venus Fucking Williams

sheyna
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Not sure when she got "injured" but if Wimbledon was part of the mix I highly doubt she would have beaten the Venus Fucking Williams

What does that quote by George Bernard Shaw in your signature mean? :confused:

Conor
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:43 PM
:yawn: What a boring thread...

justine&coria
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:48 PM
If people want to put an asterisk on 2003 because of Serena's injury, why doesn't the same go for Justine's illness in 2004?
I would say more : why doesn't the same go when Serena won AO this year, or even better : why doesn't the same go for Serena when she won her only RG ? Hadn't Justine been ill, she probably wouldn't have won RG, wouldn't have complete the Serena Slam etc...

I'm being ironic here cause I don't like asterisks either, but those who put an asterisk on Justine's "recent" achievement should put one on Serena's Serena Slam !!

Anyway, I'd so much like to see a Justine-Venus or a Justine-Serena match at this US Open : hope they both can do it (doesn't matter if they're in the same quarters ;) ) !!

Vlover
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=jazzfuzion;11454615]what makes me smile is the fact that universal disapproval of supergrunt and vlover is greater than universal approval of thread title.

I'm so heart broken because a bunch of Justine fanatics disagree with my posts. How will I overcome such tragedy?:sad:

Anyway Let's see how the "greatest" in the last five years fare at the USO where most of the great players actually meet.;) Then again maybe I shouldn't put much emphasis on the inability to win majors outside of clay. The current memo from the "experts" is that the FO and smaller tournies are good enough.:lol:

sweetpeas
Aug 20th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Serena is the best player of the past decade


RIGHT!

Mileen
Aug 20th, 2007, 08:47 PM
[QUOTE]

Quite frankly I'm more impressed by this:
Serena Williams - USO (2) AO (3) W (2) Miami (4)
Venus Williams - USO (2) W (4) Miami (3)

Sorry if my standards are high but I'm more interested in tournies where the best in the game all come to play.;)

Yes, you mean like the YEC :rolls:

Thanx4nothin
Aug 20th, 2007, 08:48 PM
Basically Justine has been the best player on the WTA Tour for some time, but slams wise she still isn't churning out those magnificent results, wins wise. If she wins the US Open she probably has a reasonable claim at saying she is dominating the womens game at present, but not much more than say Momo last year. If Jankovic had won a slam this year her stats would eb almost identical to henin's but i would be far from calling her the dominant player. Impressive though Henin has been this year, she hasn't shown the same locked control of the womens game that Serena did from 1999 US Open to the 2003 Wimbledon, or that other greats before her done. Her best effort at the slams was 2 in the one season, something she hasn't done in 4 years. Much like Serena hasn't done three or even 2 in 5 years. Maybe it's the increasing depth, or the injuries or both but it seems that Henin and the 2 williamses are destined never to fully dominate again, they seem likely to continue sharing the slams along with Miss Sharapova (possible others will enter the fray) whilst Henin dominates the WTA Tour and the Williamses make limited appearances at the bigger tournaments.

treufreund
Aug 20th, 2007, 08:53 PM
in the absence of the Williamses

Well, that's okay. It is certainly understandable that the Williams sisters would want to stay away from the game until Justine cools off. They don't want to weather the storm known as Hurricane Juju. ;):p

Vlad Tepes
Aug 20th, 2007, 09:08 PM
2003 - Serena 4 titles including 2 slams from 41 matches to Henin's 86 matches and 8 titles, Serena likely would have won the US Open and most other things she had played if she hadn't been injured. Form wise Serena would have been the best, Henin cklearly benefited from her injury.

OMG, that is so dumb. Going by what you say there, if a player only shows up at one tournament and wins it, she is the best player that year, as she'll be able to say: I won 1 title from 5 matches, as opposed to X player, who won 7 titles, but out of 90 matches :rolleyes:
8 titles with two slams is better than 4 titles with 2 slams any given day. We don't care why Serena only won 4 titles, as history won't care either. She just wasn't able to do more, Justine was. Sorry, but 2003 was Justine's year.

Geisha
Aug 20th, 2007, 09:48 PM
OMG, that is so dumb. Going by what you say there, if a player only shows up at one tournament and wins it, she is the best player that year, as she'll be able to say: I won 1 title from 5 matches, as opposed to X player, who won 7 titles, but out of 90 matches :rolleyes:
8 titles with two slams is better than 4 titles with 2 slams any given day. We don't care why Serena only won 4 titles, as history won't care either. She just wasn't able to do more, Justine was. Sorry, but 2003 was Justine's year.

Totally disagree. Justine and Serena won equal GSs. Justine won more titles. I believe Serena had a better win-loss record. And, she also didn't have the losses Justine had. Justine's second GS was in the absence of the NUMBER ONE player.

freeandlonely
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:12 PM
What's that mean? Justine got her ass kicked by Amelie at both of those slams

You can't say Amelie Mauresmo destroyed Justine in AO 06.
Justine was totally sick.

shap_half
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Totally disagree. Justine and Serena won equal GSs. Justine won more titles. I believe Serena had a better win-loss record. And, she also didn't have the losses Justine had. Justine's second GS was in the absence of the NUMBER ONE player.

And if Serena had been there? What? She would have won?
I'm so glad you can tell the future, but for those of us who can't, we're gonna go by facts.
FACT is, Justine won more and ended the year at #1, you can bellow til the cows come home of how things might be different if something else happened, but unfortunately the what ifs only lead to frustrations.

goldenboi356
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Totally disagree. Justine and Serena won equal GSs. Justine won more titles. I believe Serena had a better win-loss record. And, she also didn't have the losses Justine had. Justine's second GS was in the absence of the NUMBER ONE player.

If you say this then I could say that Serena's AO 07 was in absence of the NUMBER ONE player. Justine had to beat every one in her way, as did serena.

And who ended up as the NUMBER ONE player for 2003? Justine, not Serena. She won almost EVERY other Tier I that year while Serena only managed Miami. 2003 is justine's year period, just as 2002 was serena's year.

fammmmedspin
Aug 20th, 2007, 10:55 PM
She's actually done what the Williams sisters have - played a very reduced schedule for most years since 2003 due to injury and the inability to keep it up for more matches a year. She's managed to play relatively consistently when she has though and usually doesn't collapse mentally in a final.

Her advantage has been that the people who ought to be challenging her who are about her age have vanished from the top 10 or are in decline or are playing too rarely to make an impact. Its not normal ecen in tennis history to have Kim gone, Nastya out, Elena in trouble, Nadia off, Momo troubled Thats before we get to the people like Molik, Dokic or Lucic who might well be in the top ten but vanished. The slightly younger people of Daniella's age seem thin on the ground at the top too - which weakens the field further. Many people who advanced to number 9-11 have fallen back rather than continued uowards so that hasn't helped either . The older generation that might still be hanging around has similarly gone away - no Capriati , no Davenport - - only Patty is left and she is up and down and never has had the big GS wins. The young generation - JJ, Anna C, Nicole, Anna I, Lucie, Dinara is inconsistent and hasn't learnt how to win the biggest matches yet. Henin can still hit more consistently and they can't take advantage of a 40% first serve percentage without missing too much.

Justine is doing about as well as someone who has also had to deal with injury could. She's doing it in circumstances when the older people who should have got better with her have gone away or got worse and the youngsters are coming through without the years of match preparation of a young Capriati or Hingis or many experienced on form players to learn from. She's dominating but its a different sort of domination to what we saw from Graf, Hingis, Venus or Serena

Pureracket
Aug 20th, 2007, 11:05 PM
Keep on doing your thang, JH!!!!!

Vlad Tepes
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:03 AM
Totally disagree. Justine and Serena won equal GSs. Justine won more titles. I believe Serena had a better win-loss record. And, she also didn't have the losses Justine had. Justine's second GS was in the absence of the NUMBER ONE player.

So does this mean that every GS at which the world number 1 does not take part does not have a rightful winner? All of a sudden only the top ranked player is able to win a slam? How about the AO this year then? Is Serena's win nothing but a fluke in the absence of the #1 player, who had been in all the slam finals of 2006?
About 2003, nobody looks at win-loss record but a bunch of statistic freaks, you look at GS won, tournaments won and ranking, those things remain. Tough for Serena, maybe she could have won more, but Justine's results are simply better in 2003.

vejh
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:28 AM
Who did Serena and Venus had to battle with 2000-2003 that was so much tougher than the players Ju faces and beats these days? Just want to know that reasoning. IMO, the girls these days are harder to beat, at least consistently, that's why domination by any one person is so hard.

Donny
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:39 AM
Who did Serena and Venus had to battle with 2000-2003 that was so much tougher than the players Ju faces and beats these days? Just want to know that reasoning. IMO, the girls these days are harder to beat, at least consistently, that's why domination by any one person is so hard.

Serena had to beat Venus in five different slam finals.

Justine has beaten three slam champions (counting CLijsters, who hadn't even won one yet) in the finals of her GS wins. Only won opponent she faced had won more than one.

sheyna
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:44 AM
Serena had to beat Venus in five different slam finals.

Justine has beaten three slam champions (counting CLijsters, who hadn't even won one yet) in the finals of her GS wins. Only won opponent she faced had won more than one.

How many had Venus won up until the last time they played a GS final?

Donny
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:46 AM
How many had Venus won up until the last time they played a GS final?

At the time of the Championships Wimbledon, in 2003, Venus had four slams. She's only won two since then.


Also, Serena's beaten Martina Hingis, Maria Sharapova, And Lindsay Davenport to win her slams.


In other words, she's had to beat a multiple slam winner in the finals of every GS she's won. That's pretty damn impressive.

sheyna
Aug 21st, 2007, 12:48 AM
At the time of the Championships Wimbledon, in 2003, Venus had four slams. She's only won two since then.

Thanks :)

T-GIRL87
Aug 21st, 2007, 01:36 AM
For the most part, I feel that Henin has defintedly been the most consistent player in the last few years. However I have a hard time believing that she is the most dominant, given that in the previous years, there have been several different grand slam winners. The game today, I feel has become very unpredictable, in that no single player has yet to truely dominate the woman's game in the way that Federder has. While Henin is almost always guaranteed a spot in the semi's or finals of a major, last year I felt when players like Serena and Venus were sidelined by injuries, that was her chance to really cement her dominance in the woman's game. As proven this year, and in 2005 when the top players are at their best, I feel that Serena Williams will always be the favorite for the Australia, Justine at the French, Venus at Wimbeldon, and given who is not injured by the end of the year, is a toss up for the U.S. Open.

felipe2004
Aug 21st, 2007, 02:08 AM
Justine is the most consistent injury free player of the last five years. Venus and Serena don't play enough what's there to argue? I still think Serena is the best female tennis player to ever pick up a racket. However for the last few years she's hasn't been focused on the game and injuries have plagued her. It's interesting because Serena still holds two more slams than Justine but we'll see how that pans out. Will Justine surpass Serena in the slam count? Of course Justine missed two opportunities to silence the critics when she lost the 2006 AO and Wimbledon finals to Amelie. :)
Yeah, when she played 9 tournaments in both 2004 and 2005 (having to miss Slams and YEC), and 13 tournaments in 2006, she showed she wasn't injured. ;)

Forehand_Volley
Aug 21st, 2007, 10:45 AM
For the most part, I feel that Henin has defintedly been the most consistent player in the last few years. However I have a hard time believing that she is the most dominant, given that in the previous years, there have been several different grand slam winners. The game today, I feel has become very unpredictable, in that no single player has yet to truely dominate the woman's game in the way that Federder has. While Henin is almost always guaranteed a spot in the semi's or finals of a major, last year I felt when players like Serena and Venus were sidelined by injuries, that was her chance to really cement her dominance in the woman's game. As proven this year, and in 2005 when the top players are at their best, I feel that Serena Williams will always be the favorite for the Australia, Justine at the French, Venus at Wimbeldon, and given who is not injured by the end of the year, is a toss up for the U.S. Open.
Dominance has taken a different look this Era compared with the last two.

The previous Era's dominance incorporated consistent grand slams wins, weeks at number one, H2H, YE #1 ranking, YEC, and all the factors that would easier and obviously identify a player being dominant. They were consistent and dominant in all these factors.

Players from Court, King, Navratilova, Evert and Graf's Era consistently won majors over a span of years. Generally one or more per year throughout their careers which also accompanied multiple weeks at number one (post '73) and YE #1 ranking, YEC, tournament wins, etc. Also Court, Navratilova and Graf added to that dominance at least four consecutive single slam wins in a row.

This generations dominance is splintered, if you will, in that all of the elements and factors of the previous generation aren't as appearant. Some were dominant in the majors for the short term, but not consistent over a lengthy period of time. Others have been consistent over a lengthy period of time, but not appearantly dominant in the majors.

Hingis' domination actually better emulates her predecessors, than that of the current generation because of all elements and factors were there. She won three majors in 1997, and continued to win a major each year the next two years (1997-1999), winning 23 tournaments, had successive weeks as #1, YE #1, YEC, etc.

Davenport's majors from 1998-2000 were single year majors, 17 tournament wins, less weeks at number one, etc., etc. Serena has shown her dominance during her five grand slam wins 2002-2003 (four in a row), Venus' 4 in 2000-2001, Jennifer's 3 in 2001-2002, and Amelie's 2 in 2006, however, they've not been able to maintain the consistent level of previous generations in applying the factors and elements over a period of multiple years in a row, YE #1 ranking, weeks at number one, etc. The missing element appears to be consistency over a period of multiple years during the time of winning majors and equally playing well outside the majors.

Henin is showing her dominance by winning a slam in each of the past five years (2003-2007), through weeks at number one, YE #1 ranking 3 times, leads H2H and won most slams since the year of her inaugural slam win during this period...however, she's only won more than one slam in a calendar year (2003) (that could change after the '07 USO). Consistency is the closest Henin comes to prior generations in showing her dominance. The missing element appears to be more grand slam wins each year.

The term "dominance" has taken two seperate identities in this generation and two seperate approaches.
I think the reason we as fans aren't witnessing the same type of domination and consistency shown by previous generations comes down to this era being more competitive and increased frequency of injury than previous generations. No one person from this generation has been able incorporate ALL factors and elements of domination concurrently to equal that of their predecessors.

I hope I explained it correctly, because I'm not trying to slight anyone or their favs.

jujufreak
Aug 21st, 2007, 11:10 AM
Dominance has taken a different look this Era compared with the last two.

Players from Court, King, Navratilova, Evert and Graf's Era consistently won majors over a span of years. Generally one or more per year throughout their careers which also accompanied multiple weeks at number one (post '73) and YE #1 ranking. Also Court, Navratilova and Graf added to that dominance at least four consecutive single slam wins in a row.

Hingis' domination actually better emulates her predecessors, than that of the current generation. She won three majors in 1997, and continued to win a major each year the next two years (1997-1999), had successive weeks as #1, YE #1, etc.

This generation is different in that Henin is showing her dominance by winning a slam in each of the past five years (2003-2007), through weeks at number one, YE #1 ranking 3 times, leads H2H and won most slams since the year of her inaugural slam win during this period...however, she's only won more than one slam in a calendar year (2003) (that could change after the '07 USO). That is the closest Henin comes to prior generations in showing her dominance.

Serena has shown her dominance during her five grand slam wins 2002-2003 (four in a row), Venus' 4 in 2000-2001, Jennifer's 3 in 2001-2002, however, they've not been able to maintain the consistent level of previous generations in applying dominance over a period of multiple years in a row, YE #1 ranking, weeks at number one, etc..

The term "dominance" has taken two seperate identities in this generation and two seperate approaches.
I think the reason we as fans aren't witnessing the same type of domination shown by previous generations comes down to this era being more competitive than previous generations. No one person from this generation has been able incorporate both types of domination concurrently to equal that of their predecessors.

I hope I explained it correctly, because I'm not trying to slight anyone or their favs.

you did :yeah:

T-GIRL87
Aug 22nd, 2007, 01:28 AM
Dominance has taken a different look this Era compared with the last two.

The previous Era's dominance incorporated consistent grand slams wins, weeks at number one, H2H, YE #1 ranking, YEC, and all the factors that would easier and obviously identify a player being dominant. They were consistent and dominant in all these factors.

Players from Court, King, Navratilova, Evert and Graf's Era consistently won majors over a span of years. Generally one or more per year throughout their careers which also accompanied multiple weeks at number one (post '73) and YE #1 ranking, YEC, tournament wins, etc. Also Court, Navratilova and Graf added to that dominance at least four consecutive single slam wins in a row.

This generations dominance is splintered, if you will, in that all of the elements and factors of the previous generation aren't as appearant. Some were dominant in the majors for the short term, but not consistent over a lengthy period of time. Others have been consistent over a lengthy period of time, but not appearantly dominant in the majors.

Hingis' domination actually better emulates her predecessors, than that of the current generation because of all elements and factors were there. She won three majors in 1997, and continued to win a major each year the next two years (1997-1999), winning 23 tournaments, had successive weeks as #1, YE #1, YEC, etc.

Davenport's majors from 1998-2000 were single year majors, 17 tournament wins, less weeks at number one, etc., etc. Serena has shown her dominance during her five grand slam wins 2002-2003 (four in a row), Venus' 4 in 2000-2001, Jennifer's 3 in 2001-2002, and Amelie's 2 in 2006, however, they've not been able to maintain the consistent level of previous generations in applying the factors and elements over a period of multiple years in a row, YE #1 ranking, weeks at number one, etc. The missing element appears to be consistency over a period of multiple years during the time of winning majors and equally playing well outside the majors.

Henin is showing her dominance by winning a slam in each of the past five years (2003-2007), through weeks at number one, YE #1 ranking 3 times, leads H2H and won most slams since the year of her inaugural slam win during this period...however, she's only won more than one slam in a calendar year (2003) (that could change after the '07 USO). Consistency is the closest Henin comes to prior generations in showing her dominance. The missing element appears to be more grand slam wins each year.

The term "dominance" has taken two seperate identities in this generation and two seperate approaches.
I think the reason we as fans aren't witnessing the same type of domination and consistency shown by previous generations comes down to this era being more competitive and increased frequency of injury than previous generations. No one person from this generation has been able incorporate ALL factors and elements of domination concurrently to equal that of their predecessors.

I hope I explained it correctly, because I'm not trying to slight anyone or their favs.
I guess I can understand what your saying. I've only started watching tennis in the last four years, so I've haven't witnessed the game when by players like graf, navaraltilova, and Evert were able to dominate for extended periods of time. You believe that while no single player has been able to outright dominate the game, the consistency that Henin has displayed since 03 somehow is the closet thing to dominance we'll ever see. You think that because of injuries which have plagued the game, it will be unlikely for anyone to dominate. Again, while you do make some valid points, I still feel that what Henin has done in the last five years is maintain a tremedous level of consistency, not dominance. Fededer, against players who are stronger, faster, and hit the ball much harder continues to dominate his competition. I can't understand why Henin, someone who pocesses the speed, variety, and power like a Fededer, hasn't been able to do the same.

AcesHigh
Aug 22nd, 2007, 02:38 AM
What a ridiculous thread

thrust
Aug 22nd, 2007, 02:46 AM
How about trying to win a slam on a surface other than grass, or the AO surface? Justine has won a Slam, Tier I and 4 tier II-whose competitors were just as good as any of the tier I, outside of Miami. Justine has won on clay, grass and hard courts for the past two years. She was ranked #1 last year, and probably, will be #1 again this year-barring serious injuries. Since her first Slam in 03, when healthy, she has been the #1 player.

AcesHigh
Aug 22nd, 2007, 02:54 AM
How about trying to win a slam on a surface other than grass, or the AO surface? Justine has won a Slam, Tier I and 4 tier II-whose competitors were just as good as any of the tier I, outside of Miami. Justine has won on clay, grass and hard courts for the past two years. She was ranked #1 last year, and probably, will be #1 again this year-barring serious injuries. Since her first Slam in 03, when healthy, she has been the #1 player.

she's been #1, but she has not been the best player at all times and since January 2004 has not won a slam off of clay.

Yes, Serena has not won a slam off of Rebound Ace and Venus hasn't won a slam off of grass, but they are having the worst years of their careers and are always injured, unfit, or sumthing is always wrong. Meanwhile, Justine is at the top of her game and still cannot breakthrough.

It is ridiculous to put Justine over those two in terms of greatness or quality. I can see how Justine def. has better numbers than Venus, but there is no argument that she is better than Serena in numbers or in the quality of her game.

joao
Aug 22nd, 2007, 06:47 AM
These are the season ending top10 rankings since 2003

2006
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Maria Sharapova
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova
5. Kim Clijsters
6. Nadia Petrova
7. Martina Hingis
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Patty Schnyder
10. Nicole Vaidisova

2005
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Mary Pierce
6. Justine Henin-Hardenne
7. Patty Schnyder
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Nadia Petrova
10. Venus Williams

2004
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Amelie Mauresmo
3. Anastasia Myskina
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Svetlana Kuznetsova
6. Elena Dementieva
7. Serena Williams
8. Justine Henin-Hardenne
9. Venus Williams
10. Jennifer Capriati

2003
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Serena Williams
4. Amelie Mauresmo
5. Lindsay Davenport
6. Jennifer Capriati
7. Anastasia Myskina
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Chanda Rubin
10. Ai Sugiyama

How can a player who finished 2004 and 2005 outside the top5 be considered the best player of the last 5 years? Regardless of injuries ...

My point is ... clearly Justine has the numbers to show that she's a great player (thanks Forehand for the work) and has been the most consistent since 2003 but that doesn't mean she has been the best. Clearly she wasn't the best every year since 2003 ... she just was the best overall ... nuance! And that makes a big difference!

And if you ask people who have been following tennis (but don't know the real stats) who has been the best player of this generation, I'm almost sure that Henin is not the name that'll come first ...

Calypso
Aug 22nd, 2007, 08:21 AM
Impressive numbers from Justine!

Unfortunately, the question mark hangs over what would have happened if the sisters had not
had their dominance and reign at the top halted by the formidable Miss Injuryova!!!.

No one can question that Justine deserves praise for her wonderful achievements, but until she
can consistently beat BOTH Venus and Serena (who is to say she can't do it?), it will take a lot
to silence the doubters.

To a lot of people, its no coincidence that Justine (and Kim's) sudden rise to dominance in 2003 came
when the sisters were out injured for long spells.

Petersmiler
Aug 22nd, 2007, 08:36 AM
Impressive numbers from Justine!

Unfortunately, the question mark hangs over what would have happened if the sisters had not
had their dominance and reign at the top halted by the formidable Miss Injuryova!!!.

No one can question that Justine deserves praise for her wonderful achievements, but until she
can consistently beat BOTH Venus and Serena (who is to say she can't do it?), it will take a lot
to silence the doubters.

To a lot of people, its no coincidence that Justine (and Kim's) sudden rise to dominance in 2003 came
when the sisters were out injured for long spells.

But she hasn't played Venus for 4 years. What if she never gets to play her again?

Besides which, she only ever plays one player on the court. Arguably Serena is the better Williams sister and so surely she only needs to beat her. And I believe during this period, in the few times they have met, she has a positive h2h with her.

Nobody is trying to steal the sisters thunder. Why can't some people just accept that Justine deserves as much praise as Venus, and just slightly less than Serena?

winmic
Aug 22nd, 2007, 10:49 AM
I guess I can understand what your saying. I've only started watching tennis in the last four years, so I've haven't witnessed the game when by players like graf, navaraltilova, and Evert were able to dominate for extended periods of time. You believe that while no single player has been able to outright dominate the game, the consistency that Henin has displayed since 03 somehow is the closet thing to dominance we'll ever see. You think that because of injuries which have plagued the game, it will be unlikely for anyone to dominate. Again, while you do make some valid points, I still feel that what Henin has done in the last five years is maintain a tremedous level of consistency, not dominance. Fededer, against players who are stronger, faster, and hit the ball much harder continues to dominate his competition. I can't understand why Henin, someone who pocesses the speed, variety, and power like a Fededer, hasn't been able to do the same.

I think that this year Federer is not more dominant in the ATP-tour than Justine in the WTA-tour.

Justine:w/l-record:43-4, tournament wins:6 (1 GS, missed the Australian Open)

Federer:w/l-record:46-6, tournament wins:5 (2 GS)

Forehand_Volley
Aug 23rd, 2007, 04:24 AM
Believe it or not, Henin is not my favorite player.:eek: I hope that doesn't upset Henin's fans. But I do respect her acccomplishments.

I am amazed and perplexed what she's managed to do with her career the years since her first major win, battling all these taller, more powerful players. Her resolve is quite remarkable. The type of determination only a unique champion could possess.

Its as if she understands she will never outhit or overpower them and has become quite comfortable in grinding-out matches and using her mental attributes to its fullest advantage. That is what makes her so unique. Henin has gotten a lot of mileage out her career thusfar. And she only seems to be getting better in some areas.
She's using her talents to its fullest ability and that's great to see in any tennis player or person living their life.

Justine hits harder than most players on tour. I can think of only a handful who generate more powerful shots off of both wings.

Here's the latest power index results from the Toronto tournament Henin just won. Henin is no where close. She's been killing power tennis for years.

http://www.tennis-x.com/story/2007-08-20/n.php

Sony Ericsson WTA Tour Power Index Leaders – Rogers Cup presented by American Express:

1. Nadia Petrova – 93.3 mph
2. Ana Ivanovic – 93.0 mph
3. Tatiana Golovin – 92.3 mph
4. Shahar Peer – 91.6 mph
5. Michaella Krajicek – 91.6 mph

Sony Ericsson WTA Tour Power Index Leaders – Cumulative after three events:

1. Yaroslava Shvedova – 102.9 mph
2. Venus Williams – 98.8 mph
3. Maria Kirilenko – 98.7 mph
4. Nadia Petrova – 97.4 mph
5. Elena Dementieva – 95.8 mph

From Sony Ericsson Website:

Rogers Cup presented by American Express
Toronto, Canada
August 13 - August 19, 2007

1 Nadia Petrova (RUS) 93.3 MPH
2 Ana Ivanovic (SRB) 93.0 MPH
3 Tatiana Golovin (FRA) 92.3 MPH
4 Shahar Peer (ISR) 91.6 MPH
5 Michaella Krajicek (NED) 91.6 MPH
6 Svetlana Kuznetsova (RUS) 91.0 MPH
7 Kirilenko, Maria (RUS) 89.23 MPH
8 Dinara Safina (RUS) 89.23 MPH
9 Sybille Bammer (AUT) 89.20 MPH
10 Anabel Medina-Garrigues (ESP) 88.9 MPH


Sony Ericsson WTA Tour Power Index Leaders - Cumulative after three events:

1 Shvedova, Yaroslava (RUS) 102.9 MPH
2 Williams, Venus (USA) 98.8 MPH
3 Kirilenko, Maria (RUS) 98.7 MPH
4 Petrova, Nadia (RUS) 97.4 MPH
5 Dementieva, Elena (RUS) 95.8 MPH
6 Tamarine Tanasugarn (THA) 95.4 MPH
7 Meghann Shaughnessy (USA) 94.8 MPH
8 Victoria Azarenka (BLR) 93.9 MPH
9 Sania Mirza (IND) 93.8 MPH
10 Peng Shuai (CHN) 93.3 MPH

shap_half
Aug 23rd, 2007, 04:49 AM
These are the season ending top10 rankings since 2003

2006
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Maria Sharapova
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova
5. Kim Clijsters
6. Nadia Petrova
7. Martina Hingis
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Patty Schnyder
10. Nicole Vaidisova

2005
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Mary Pierce
6. Justine Henin-Hardenne
7. Patty Schnyder
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Nadia Petrova
10. Venus Williams

2004
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Amelie Mauresmo
3. Anastasia Myskina
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Svetlana Kuznetsova
6. Elena Dementieva
7. Serena Williams
8. Justine Henin-Hardenne
9. Venus Williams
10. Jennifer Capriati

2003
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Serena Williams
4. Amelie Mauresmo
5. Lindsay Davenport
6. Jennifer Capriati
7. Anastasia Myskina
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Chanda Rubin
10. Ai Sugiyama

How can a player who finished 2004 and 2005 outside the top5 be considered the best player of the last 5 years? Regardless of injuries ...

My point is ... clearly Justine has the numbers to show that she's a great player (thanks Forehand for the work) and has been the most consistent since 2003 but that doesn't mean she has been the best. Clearly she wasn't the best every year since 2003 ... she just was the best overall ... nuance! And that makes a big difference!

And if you ask people who have been following tennis (but don't know the real stats) who has been the best player of this generation, I'm almost sure that Henin is not the name that'll come first ...


Then who should be then? If you look at your own list, Justine Amelie and Elena D are the only ones to have been ranked in the YE Top 10 in the last five years.

Based on rankings, based on wins, based on H2H records since 2003, Justine owns. I really don't understand why anyone else is even contending for it.

Junex
Aug 23rd, 2007, 05:30 AM
Impressive numbers from Justine!

Unfortunately, the question mark hangs over what would have happened if the sisters had not
had their dominance and reign at the top halted by the formidable Miss Injuryova!!!.

No one can question that Justine deserves praise for her wonderful achievements, but until she
can consistently beat BOTH Venus and Serena (who is to say she can't do it?), it will take a lot
to silence the doubters.

To a lot of people, its no coincidence that Justine (and Kim's) sudden rise to dominance in 2003 came
when the sisters were out injured for long spells.

Even before the WS injuries,
Kim beat Serena @ YEC
Justine beat Serena twice on Clay
The Belgians were in RG finals, were the WS played in
The Belgians were the losing SF to the WS in Wimbledon, the best surface of the WS, even then however the scoreline is, the belgians almost gave the WS a run of the Rosewater Dish.
They were already there, playing catch-up, constantly challenging the Sisters for the Top Position.
It's not their fault that the WS bodies could not sustain the pressure of the competition.
The WS bodies could not sustain the type of play they have to employ on themselves to prevent the belgian onslaught.
Yes they manage to defend their guard at SW19 but at stake was that they're totally spent and eventually they could not fight anymore because their body gave-up!

Forehand_Volley
Aug 23rd, 2007, 05:59 AM
These are the season ending top10 rankings since 2003

2006
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Maria Sharapova
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Svetlana Kuznetsova
5. Kim Clijsters
6. Nadia Petrova
7. Martina Hingis
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Patty Schnyder
10. Nicole Vaidisova

2005
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Amelie Mauresmo
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Mary Pierce
6. Justine Henin-Hardenne
7. Patty Schnyder
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Nadia Petrova
10. Venus Williams

2004
1. Lindsay Davenport
2. Amelie Mauresmo
3. Anastasia Myskina
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Svetlana Kuznetsova
6. Elena Dementieva
7. Serena Williams
8. Justine Henin-Hardenne
9. Venus Williams
10. Jennifer Capriati

2003
1. Justine Henin-Hardenne
2. Kim Clijsters
3. Serena Williams
4. Amelie Mauresmo
5. Lindsay Davenport
6. Jennifer Capriati
7. Anastasia Myskina
8. Elena Dementieva
9. Chanda Rubin
10. Ai Sugiyama

How can a player who finished 2004 and 2005 outside the top5 be considered the best player of the last 5 years? Regardless of injuries ...

My point is ... clearly Justine has the numbers to show that she's a great player (thanks Forehand for the work) and has been the most consistent since 2003 but that doesn't mean she has been the best. Clearly she wasn't the best every year since 2003 ... she just was the best overall ... nuance! And that makes a big difference!

And if you ask people who have been following tennis (but don't know the real stats) who has been the best player of this generation, I'm almost sure that Henin is not the name that'll come first ...

FYI you forgot 2007, where it appears Henin will end the year at #1 for the third time in five years. 2007 is as much part of the five years as is 2004 and 2005.

Henin won more grand slam majors and an Olympic gold medal in each of the two years she didn't end the rankings at #1. Lindsay Davenport, who finished the rankings #1 both of those years (2004-2005) didn't win a major.
During that two year time period (2004-2005), no other tennis player in the top ten won as many majors + the Olympic gold as Henin.

You can't point to one specific STAT to rule Henin out, especially in this instance, because Henin leads in almost every other STAT during this five year time period.

Henin's 2007 Year-End #1 ranking will make her the only person of this generation to have won a major the same year ending #1, at least 3 times. The only other players in the Open Era to have accomplished that are Steffi Graf, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova.

Also, 2005 was the first year of Henin's historic run at the French Open, tying Monica Seles in 2007 for most French Open Championships won consecutively in the Open Era. Henin has an opportunity in 2008 to break that record.

joao
Aug 23rd, 2007, 06:45 AM
FYI you forgot 2007, where it appears Henin will end the year at #1 for the third time in five years. 2007 is as much part of the five years as is 2004 and 2005.

I did not forget it ... 2007 is not over ... Henin has the lead but who knows what might happen ... for all we know she might not win another match for the rest of the year (unlikely but ...)!

BTW, you keep saying that Henin is the best of the last 5 years since she won her 1st slam ... last time I checked she won the FO in may 2003 ... that's 4 years and 3 months ... 5 years will be actually next year at the FO!

You can't point to one specific STAT to rule Henin out.

I just did ... she did not finish #1 in 2004 and 2005 .... she didn't even finish in the top 5 ....

Anyway ... we all agree she's a great player ... but some of us think that she hasn't been the best every year! Just the most consistent to get the best stats overall ... and that's different!

Forehand_Volley
Aug 23rd, 2007, 06:53 AM
I did not forget it ... 2007 is not over ... Henin has the lead but who knows what might happen ... for all we know she might not win another match for the rest of the year (unlikely but ...)!

BTW, you keep saying that Henin is the best of the last 5 years since she won her 1st slam ... last time I checked she won the FO in may 2003 ... that's 4 years and 3 months ... 5 years will be actually next year at the FO!
That's incorrect. The numbers and STATS I provided have been since the year of Henin's first major win. I've been very clear about that point. Her H2H, tournament wins, losses, etc have reflected it. Coincidentally, she ended 2003 at #1, so why wouldn't I include the entire year of 2003 STATS as well?

2003
2004
2005
2006
2007

That's five years.

I just did ... she did not finish #1 in 2004 and 2005 .... she didn't even finish in the top 5 ....

YE #1
2003 Justine Henin-Hardenne
2004 Lindsay Davenport
2005 Lindsay Davenport
2006 Justine Henin
2007 Justine Henin

2004-2005, Henin won more majors plus the Olympic Gold, which is more majors during that time period than any other player. She finished #1 three of those five years since the year of winning her first major. Henin is only one of four players in Open Era History to win a major the same year she ended ranked #1 three different times. Only Graf, Navratilova and Evert accomplished that feat.

Again, you cannot negate Henin's status at being the best during this five year time period, especially when she was 8-0 H2H against the only other woman to be ranked #1 during this period. Lindsay had great results in 2004 and 2005, but she wasn't able to win a major during this time when Henin was winning majors and the Olympic Gold.

Using your most literal interpretation standard.... 3 > 2

Geisha
Aug 23rd, 2007, 08:47 AM
Even before the WS injuries,
Kim beat Serena @ YEC
Justine beat Serena twice on Clay
The Belgians were in RG finals, were the WS played in
The Belgians were the losing SF to the WS in Wimbledon, the best surface of the WS, even then however the scoreline is, the belgians almost gave the WS a run of the Rosewater Dish.
They were already there, playing catch-up, constantly challenging the Sisters for the Top Position.
It's not their fault that the WS bodies could not sustain the pressure of the competition.
The WS bodies could not sustain the type of play they have to employ on themselves to prevent the belgian onslaught.
Yes they manage to defend their guard at SW19 but at stake was that they're totally spent and eventually they could not fight anymore because their body gave-up!

Kim's win over Serena was a great win. Okay.

The Belgians reached the French Open Finals, outlasting the Williamses. That's pretty much expected.

The win on clay for Justine was terrific. Her best surface. Serena's worst.

Venus played incredibly at Wimbledon in 2003. Kim was a mental headcase.

Justine stinks on grass and when VW and SW are fit.

Helaena
Aug 23rd, 2007, 10:04 AM
Serena is like Graf with a better backhand, a better serve, and slightly slower.

you're kidding right?

Mercury Rising
Aug 23rd, 2007, 04:32 PM
YE #1
2003 Justine Henin-Hardenne
2004 Lindsay Davenport
2005 Lindsay Davenport
2006 Justine Henin
2007 Justine Henin

2004-2005, Henin won more majors plus the Olympic Gold, which is more majors during that time period than any other player. She finished #1 three of those five years since the year of winning her first major. Henin is only one of four players in Open Era History to win a major the same year she ended ranked #1 three different times. Only Graf, Navratilova and Evert accomplished that feat.

Please, 2007 is not over yet...

OTOH you did a great job with this thread :yeah:

Forehand_Volley
Sep 7th, 2007, 11:19 PM
I think we can definitively add Player of The Year, Year-End Ranked #1, and possibly GS single #7.

The Henin Era continues.

Mercury Rising
Sep 9th, 2007, 01:29 PM
I









Henin vs Today's Top 20 Since Her Ascent in 2003 (78-18):

Henin has a winning record against every player in the today's top 20 since her ascent in 2003 except the great Venus Williams (0-1) January 2003 AO.:eek:

Henin v 2 Maria Sharapova (5-2)
Henin v 3 Jelena Jankovic (7-0)
Henin v 4 Ana Ivanovic (2-0)
Henin v 5 Svetlana Kuznetsova (14-2)
Henin v 6 Anna Chakvetadze (2-0)
Henin v 7 Amelie Mauresmo (8-5)
Henin v 8 Serena Williams (4-2)
Henin v 9 Nadia Petrova (10-2)
Henin v 10 Daniela Hantuchova (1-0)
Henin v 11 Marion Bartoli (2-1)
Henin v 12 Martina Hingis (2-0)
Henin v 13 Venus Williams (0-1)
Henin v 14 Dinara Safina (3-0)
Henin v 15 Nicole Vaidisova (3-0)
Henin v 16 Patty Schnyder (6-1)
Henin v 17 Elena Dementieva (4-2)
Henin v 18 Shahar Peer (1-0)
Henin v 19 Tatiana Golovin (2-0)
Henin v 20 Sybille Bammer (2-0)

Now Justine hasn't got a loosing record against anyone in top 20 since 2003 :eek: amazing. Many statistics have gotten better since this USOpen :bounce: