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Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 9th, 2002, 11:51 PM
I am all for The williams family helping out in several african countries by starting tennis clinics, but aren't there already players from different african countries? What about the Black family? There from zimbabwe, right? Aren't they doing anything to help african tennis thrive?

Or what about amanda coetzer and all those other south africans from the mens tour? What are they doing to help african tennis?

Rocketta
Jul 10th, 2002, 12:28 AM
Maybe the racial rift in Africa is too big for any non-black African to make a difference amoung the black Africans?

I don't know but it is a good question. What are they doing for their continent or country even? Maybe they are doing a lot. I have no clue. Maybe some of their fans will come in here and let us know what their favs do charity wise?

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 12:38 AM
Amanda is playing exhibitions and doing clinics in South Africa on regular basis with invited players ( last year - Kournikova, several years before - Steffi ). Amanda does a lot.

I do not know if Black family is doing anything right now, because Mugabe destroyed the country and no one is perhaps interested in tennis over there right now. But few years ago Blacks had a tennis school over there and there were a lot of African youngsters in that school. I remember watching TV program about that on South African TV years ago.

Jakeev
Jul 10th, 2002, 12:48 AM
Ys is correct I think it's very difficult for the Black's to give anything back to Zimbabwe at this point.

I think the world should keep an eye on Morocco. It is producing a lot of new players including women.

Volcana
Jul 10th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Black Africa is facing 80% of the world's AIDS cases, economies wrecked by colonialism plus its aftermath, and mass starvation. My guess is most of those countries can't spare the resources to produce tennis players.

Kart
Jul 10th, 2002, 01:05 AM
Do we have anyone from Zimbabwe on this board ?

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 02:46 AM
Black Africa is facing 80% of the world's AIDS cases, economies wrecked by colonialism plus its aftermath, and mass starvation. My guess is most of those countries can't spare the resources to produce tennis players.

Was Zimbabwe's economy wrecked by colonialism? Was Zambia's economy wrecked by colonialism? In opposite, it was wrecked by savages who replaced colonial rulers.


Do we have anyone from Zimbabwe on this board ?

I believe the posters with name African-African is from Zim..

prophet2
Jul 10th, 2002, 03:56 AM
Ys, I forgive for your ignorance on the subject of Africa. I do take offense to your choice of words, especially labeling black africans "savages". If you knew anything about the situation in Zambia, you would know that its economy based on textiles was wiped out in 1991 by an intentional inundation of Western clothing which shut down every single textile factory and business, the ensuing dependency would suggest that post-colonial plotting and European market leaders were the savages."

Rocketta
Jul 10th, 2002, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by ys
[B]

Was Zimbabwe's economy wrecked by colonialism? Was Zambia's economy wrecked by colonialism? In opposite, it was wrecked by savages who replaced colonial rulers.


First let me say that I don't condone killing of anyone but there wouldn't be white people to throw off land if colonialism didn't first come and steal land from the natives and give it to colonials, now would there? History doesn't just start today and turmoil doesn't just happen over night. It is a mess over there and its all their faults.

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 04:02 AM
Please do not put your words into my mouth.. I *do* *not* label black africans savages. I label Mr. Mugabe and Mr. Kaunda as savages.
What textile has got to do with Zambia's economic troubles? Was it Western clothing who turned the world biggest copper producer into copper importer?

Mugabe inherited from colonialists the second best economy of sub-Saharan African. To his credit, it took whole 2 decades from him to destroy it..

prophet2
Jul 10th, 2002, 04:12 AM
Mugabe inherited from colonialists the second best economy of sub-Saharan African. To his credit, it took whole 2 decades from him to destroy it..
-----------



Best? For whom? Obviously not the majority of the population, which would be a clear sign that it was a pretty shitty economy
to benefit so few.

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 04:26 AM
You know, just five years ago Zimbabwe was a country with decent economy, decent educational system and pretty decent standards of living ( by African standards, of course ), a lot of tourism, one of the biggest tobacco producers in the world, good other kinds of agriculture, very relaxed interracial relationships. While in RSA it was already pretty tense at times, at Zim it was still very relaxed. Our company had quite a bit of business with Zimbabwean farmers, and folks from Zim were suggesting that I should move to Zim, that it is as good as RSA, that Harare is a mini-Johannesbourg and living there is fun. But within these 5 years Mugabe destroyed the economy almost completely. I am still puzzled why he did that - it was not necessary, he was under no political pressure to do that. He just did it by his own will.

TheBoiledEgg
Jul 10th, 2002, 04:31 AM
what about these or don't they count ?? :rolleyes:

Selima Sfar
Bahia Moutassine
Feriel Esseghir

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 04:38 AM
Also, Randriantefy, but she is from Madagaskar, not really a continental Africa. Eggy, we are mostly talking about non-Arab Africa.. Arab Africa has much better standards of living than the rest of Africa and much better conditions for tennis or other sport development. They however have to face some other adversity - in most of their respective countries women are not, well, that equal to men..

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 10th, 2002, 05:13 AM
ys, you might want to consider the "mess" in Russia and ask your self if "savages" are the cause of the majority of Russians now living in poverty and lawlessness...

le-plus-beau
Jul 10th, 2002, 05:20 AM
TSI TSI MASVIBA-ZIM WAS A BLACK BROTHERS `DISCOVERED?

It`s sad the situation in Africa sub saharian-




I READ IN TODAY NEWPAPER THAT IN BOTSWANA-NEAR ZIM- THEY ARE WORRIED, CAUSE SIDA IS DISMISSING THE WHOLE POPULATION!!!!! 50% WOMAN PREGNANT HAVE THE VIRUS!!!!!

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 10th, 2002, 05:24 AM
ys, I am not trying to be funny because I applaud your vast knowledge of "savage" African ruler. I am just a little interested in your thaughts on the "savages" that have ruined the great USSR and drove it into widespread poverty and a complete breakdown of the justice system...

Jakeev
Jul 10th, 2002, 09:58 AM
Can some of you j%$#@&^%s get off the political crap and stick to the topic at hand?

If you want to argue about the problems and ills of Africa take it to the non-tennis section.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 10th, 2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Jakeev
Can some of you j%$#@&^%s get off the political crap and stick to the topic at hand?

If you want to argue about the problems and ills of Africa take it to the non-tennis section.

:rolleyes:

VSFan1 aka Joshua L.
Jul 10th, 2002, 01:30 PM
This thread may belong in non-tennis, but it is quite interesting. Ys and the other posters are very knowledgable in this area, and for me, this is something I know very little about, but am anxious to learn.

Nobody is bashing anybody (yet) so this thread is actually decent. :)

Kart
Jul 10th, 2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by ys

I believe the posters with name African-African is from Zim..

Thank you.

It seems to me that we need him/her to answer cybelle's question seeing that no one here (myself included) yet seems to actually have said anything about tennis programmes in Zimbabwe. If indeed there are any.

Sam L
Jul 10th, 2002, 01:44 PM
All I have to say is I would love to see more black African female players on tour :) It's great what Venus, Serena and Oracene will be doing there :)

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 02:42 PM
Can some of you j%$#@&^%s get off the political crap and stick to the topic at hand?

If you want to argue about the problems and ills of Africa take it to the non-tennis section.

If you don't like something in the posts, Jak@#$, you have all freedom to report it to moderator.

Rollo
Jul 10th, 2002, 03:26 PM
While we can debate the pros and cons of colonialism(there are both), this is one case where past ties might help. If the French would either find talent in French speaking African nations, or start an academy in Africa, it might produce some great players. Once a star is established, who knows what might follow?

Raisin
Jul 10th, 2002, 03:33 PM
I think Zachary Noah (Yannick Noah's father) has a tennis school in Cameroon. Don't know how well its doing since I guess tennis is not a very popular or common sports in most Sub-Saharan African countries.

Sophie
Jul 10th, 2002, 06:12 PM
There are plenty of African players on tour: Wayne Ferreira, David Adams, John De Jager, Mariaan De Swart, Amanda Coetzer, Joanette Kruger, Marcos Ondruska, Louis Vosloo, Neville Godwin, the Black family, to name a few. Wayne Amanda and John De Jager supported a mini-tour for junior players in South Africa (out of their own pockets) which was taken over by Nike two or three years ago. Amanda has a scholarship fund for promising juniors. However, economic conditions are worsening almost daily and all sports are suffering. The South African Tennis Assn. is broke and almost couldn't host the Davis Cup relegation match in April for a lack of funds.

veryborednow
Jul 10th, 2002, 06:29 PM
THE courts at the sentimental Zimbabwe tennis family home - the Blacks - will soon be open to members of the public for tennis coaching courses.

Situated at 1 Moir Close in Mandara, the four grass courts and one all-weather court Byron, Wayne and Cara Black cut their teeth from will soon be run as an academy by their mother Velia.

To be known as the Don Black Tennis Centre, the academy will offer tennis lessons to beginners and experienced players.

Don Black left a legacy in Byron, Wayne and Cara, the three children he introduced to the sport at courts encircled by banana and avocado plantations and are now holding their own on the professional scene.

"We will be getting really started by August to run the centre as we are still working on the bookings and timetables to avoid an influx of people flooding the courts on a single day.

"The courts are set to be of great help as they will ease congestion at facilities elsewhere and the general environment around the place is ideal for the whole family. Schools, friends, housewives, diplomats and anyone with a passion for the sport will be offered an opportunity to learn the game," said Velia. She said she would try to provide transport from the city centre and would open a creche at the home so that children from the high-density areas can enjoy visiting the academy.

"I would try to cater for transport for those who cannot afford to travel here since our main aim is to get as much people as possible to have fun through the sport," she said.

Velia and Derek Ndaramashe will be responsible for coaching children while veteran tennis coach Albert Nhamoyebonde will work with some of the local top players and adults.

Nhamoyebonde said the idea to open a tennis centre at the home would go along way towards spreading the game.

"With the value some people attach to Blacks' courts, many people will come and try to understand as much as possible about the game of tennis.

"Parents can come with their children and that will create a culture of tennis in our country which will see crowds even swelling at our Davis Cup home ties and other local events. Our main thrust is to show that no matter how old one is, no one is too old to start playing tennis," said Nhamoyebonde

Hulet
Jul 10th, 2002, 06:42 PM
ROLLO wrote, "While we can debate the pros and cons of colonialism(there are both), this is one case where past ties might help."

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

I can't believe I read this. This must be the most shoking statment I have ever read in a tennis message board - that there is an advantage for colonialism. Please tell me what the advantages are (if you want to do this via email, please email me @ eta_psi@worldcrossing.com). Btw, is there an advantage for slavery and holocaust? OMG. By the way, I came from a former colony of italy, and let me tell you all those thousands people whose grandparents were burned in a house b/c they objected to colonialism will greatly offended by that statment.

sorry, for getting out of topic. But, i can't let that statment go.

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 07:25 PM
What is so shocking? Ask people from New Zealand or Australia whether they regret that their country was once colonised by the British? Or they'd prefer it to stay ever non-colonised ( like, say, Afghanistan)?

Hulet
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:03 PM
OMG, I can't believe that people are so ignorant about colonialism in the 21st century that I have to explain why it is 'so shoking.' ys, indeed, I don't presume to know what the reaction of aborigines in NZ or australia is to colonialism, but I will wager that most would have chosen not to be colonized and almost become extinct in the process. Am I right in assuming that you come from a country not colonized recently? If that is the case, of course, you will not find colonialism so shoking. Silly me. Anyways, since you insist, here are the reasons why colonialism is wrong, wrong, wrong:

1. It's morally wrong. It gives people from another country the authority to subjugate and rule as they chose the people of another country; at the core of colonialism exists the principle of master-slave relationship between the rulers and the ruled. The colonized are not given the opportunity and freedom to plot their own destiny - no matter how blick this destiny is. A human being and a human society is not human being or society without the freedom to decide for itself its destiny. More over, colonialism throws the principle of equality out of the window; since there are clear distinction b/n the rulers and the ruled.


2. Historically, colonialism is inhumane - atleast where I have come from. As I indicated before, I came from a country colonized by Mussoloni's Italy during the second world war, and hundred and thousands of people were massacred b/c they either objected colonialism or were innocent bystanders. But, no matter how bad the colonialism in Africa was atleast we didn't become extinct like some Native american tribes in N. America. I guess we're supposed to be thankful for that. (sarcasm)

3. The reason of colonialism has been economical; specifically, to control the natural or other resource of another country for the benifit of the ruling country. Ofcource, the rulers will throw some gnawed bones to the colonized country (b/c its in their benifit)but, overall they exploited the colonized country's resources. And, any assertion that such exploitation is advantageous for the colonized is delusional to say the least.

There. That's why colonialism is bad IMO and in the opinions of millions of people who has been colonized. Yes, if you go to my country and ask people whether they choose to be colonized and lose their freedom rather than be like Afghanistan and forever be poor, they would laugh at your face; no one in their mind will choose to live without freedom. That is my last post on this subject since its very emotionally demanding for me; if you want a more clearer explanation why colonialism is shoking, please do your research. Thank you.

ziggy
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by ys
What is so shocking? Ask people from New Zealand or Australia whether they regret that their country was once colonised by the British? Or they'd prefer it to stay ever non-colonised ( like, say, Afghanistan)?

Or Russia...:o

ziggy
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Freethinker82
ys, I am not trying to be funny because I applaud your vast knowledge of "savage" African ruler. I am just a little interested in your thaughts on the "savages" that have ruined the great USSR and drove it into widespread poverty and a complete breakdown of the justice system...

Well said :wavey:

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:10 PM
Why do we always go with demagogy when we have nothing to say?

"morally wrong", "inhumane".. Of course it was. But it is OVER. There is no living and ruling colonialist on this planet. Idiots can still go and seek revenge against some grey-headed men, ask for retributions and all similar nonsense.. It is not going to happen. It is OVER. And all that is left from it is its consequences, negative ones and, yes, positive ones too.

ziggy
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by eta psi
OMG, I can't believe that people are so ignorant about colonialism in the 21st century that I have to explain why it is 'so shoking.' ys, indeed, I don't presume to know what the reaction of aborigines in NZ or australia is to colonialism, but I will wager that most would have chosen not to be colonized and almost become extinct in the process. Am I right in assuming that you come from a country not colonized recently? If that is the case, of course, you will not find colonialism so shoking. Silly me. Anyways, since you insist, here are the reasons why colonialism is wrong, wrong, wrong:

1. It's morally wrong. It gives people from another country the authority to subjugate and rule as they chose the people of another country; at the core of colonialism exists the principle of master-slave relationship between the rulers and the ruled. The colonized are not given the opportunity and freedom to plot their own destiny - no matter how blick this destiny is. A human being and a human society is not human being or society without the freedom to decide for itself its destiny. More over, colonialism throws the principle of equality out of the window; since there are clear distinction b/n the rulers and the ruled.


2. Historically, colonialism is inhumane - atleast where I have come from. As I indicated before, I came from a country colonized by Mussoloni's Italy during the second world war, and hundred and thousands of people were massacred b/c they either objected colonialism or were innocent bystanders. But, no matter how bad the colonialism in Africa was atleast we didn't become extinct like some Native american tribes in N. America. I guess we're supposed to be thankful for that. (sarcasm)

3. The reason of colonialism has been economical; specifically, to control the natural or other resource of another country for the benifit of the ruling country. Ofcource, the rulers will throw some gnawed bones to the colonized country (b/c its in their benifit)but, overall they exploited the colonized country's resources. And, any assertion that such exploitation is advantageous for the colonized is delusional to say the least.

There. That's why colonialism is bad IMO and in the opinions of millions of people who has been colonized. Yes, if you go to my country and ask people whether they choose to be colonized and lose their freedom rather than be like Afghanistan and forever be poor, they would laugh at your face; no one in their mind will choose to live without freedom. That is my last post on this subject since its very emotionally demanding for me; if you want a more clearer explanation why colonialism is shoking, please do your research. Thank you.

Fantastic post...:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Hulet
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:15 PM
"There is no living and ruling colonialist on this planet."

I disagree. But, I don't want to go into another middle east argument, so I will let it go.

selesfan1
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:23 PM
The blacks give clinics and sponsor several black junior players in Zinbabwe.When they beat Austral;ia in davis cup thousands of people received them like heroes at the airport. They have united a country . You should read The 200 issue where Jennifer Capriati is on the cover it talks a lot about this.

selesfan1
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:28 PM
The thread said African countries. Algeria,morocco and Tunisia are African countries or YS are they not Black enough to be considered African to you?

ot1962
Jul 10th, 2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by ys


Was Zimbabwe's economy wrecked by colonialism? Was Zambia's economy wrecked by colonialism? In opposite, it was wrecked by savages who replaced colonial rulers.

I believe the posters with name African-African is from Zim..

ys,
Where are you really from???
If i am running an economy where i direct 90% of the resources to less than 10% of the population, it would always look good, don't you think.

Could you explain to me what you mean by savages????
From your writing the Colonials were better for the Colonies?
So you would perfectly be HAPPY for someone to come in and STEAL your land, BRUTALIZE your people (Savage comes to mind here) for hundreds of years, rather rule yourself in POVERTY?

For me i rather have my DIGNITY and respect in POVERTY on my OWN land than have someone else rule over me. I am sure Churchill agrees with that. after all he had rather die than have the Nazis take over BRITAIN, right?

ziggy
Jul 10th, 2002, 09:33 PM
YS is from Russia (not exactly the standard bearer of wealth and prosperity these day). No offense to all Russians. But if your country wo/man can so easily explain why african economies are in the state that they are in just like another poster, I would love to know what the heck is going on her native country. You know what they say about throwing stones. Why would you talk about the hole in my drawers while you got one just as big in yours?

midora
Jul 10th, 2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by ziggy
YS is from Russia (not exactly the standard bearer of wealth and prosperity these day). No offense to all Russians. But if your country wo/man can so easily explain why african economies are in the state that they are in just like another poster, I would love to know what the heck is going on her native country. You know what they say about throwing stones. Why would you talk about the hole in my drawers while you got one just as big in yours?

I agree. I too was perplexed and amazed by YS's comments as well as the poster who said there were advantages to colonialism. I appreciate the poster who carefully detailed the ills of colonialism as well as the fact that ANY country can be successful if 90% of the resources are exploited by 10% of the population and if they could have an endless supply of cheap labor. The antebellum south's economy was booming.

The so called great standards of living in colonial era countries were only enjoyed by the colonists. The colonized did not enjoy such benefits.

Bella
Jul 10th, 2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by prophet2
Ys, I forgive for your ignorance on the subject of Africa. .............................................. its economy based on textiles was wiped out in 1991 by an intentional inundation of Western clothing

LOL. Right after our textile industry shut down. It's called China. And, 'intentional inundation"? Is that the market?

I think you should not be calling Ys ignorant.

midora
Jul 10th, 2002, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by ys
Why do we always go with demagogy when we have nothing to say?

"morally wrong", "inhumane".. Of course it was. But it is OVER. There is no living and ruling colonialist on this planet. Idiots can still go and seek revenge against some grey-headed men, ask for retributions and all similar nonsense.. It is not going to happen. It is OVER. And all that is left from it is its consequences, negative ones and, yes, positive ones too.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand you say its over but on the other hand you acknowledge that people are still living with its consequences. Much like the black zimbabweans who are forced to live in a country where the majority of arable land is owned by colonists and their decendants. I am still waiting to hear about the positive consequences of colonialism. :rolleyes:

irma
Jul 10th, 2002, 10:06 PM
I think african has worse concerns as tennis right now, does the catholic church and the pope still say they should not use protection? or is it already to late(oh yeah it is, I just heard it on tv) :fiery:

Martian KC
Jul 10th, 2002, 10:45 PM
Ummm...getting back to the SUBJECT, veryborednow wrote an excellent post on what the Black family has already and still are contributing to their nation.

Martian KC
Jul 10th, 2002, 10:46 PM
Ummm...getting back to the SUBJECT, veryborednow wrote an excellent post on what the Black family has already and still are contributing to their nation. I think Tennis magazine did an article about the Black family's contributions in one of their issues 1 or 2 years ago.

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:07 PM
You see, KC, if you reread the original post of the thread, you will have very little doubt that the original purpose ( and hope ) of this thread was glorifying some certain players and putting down other players. As soon as the original poster saw that the thread doesn't meet his(her) expectations, it was no longer interesting, and after failing to make villains out of Coetzer and Blacks they readily switched to discussing evil colonialists.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:12 PM
Excuse me, but I am the original poster of this thread and all I wanted to know was about the development of african players by active african tennis professionals. Whats so wrong about that?

Wouldn't you find it odd to see russian players trying to develop tennis clinics in camobida or america or vietnam or where ever?

maybe you should try looking at your own posts before pointing the finger at others.

Rocketta
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by ys
You see, KC, if you reread the original post of the thread, you will have very little doubt that the original purpose ( and hope ) of this thread was glorifying some certain players and putting down other players. As soon as the original poster saw that the thread doesn't meet his(her) expectations, it was no longer interesting, and after failing to make villains out of Coetzer and Blacks they readily switched to discussing evil colonialists.

I don't remember the author of this thread saying anything about colonialism?? :rolleyes: However, I have seen you fail to respond to any of the posts annihilating your idiotic claims about colonialism. Yet you fail to provide any proof to any of your idiot claims. By trying to cast dispersion on the original intent of this thread, You think we would somehow forget that you feel colonism was good for zimbabwe and all their troubles have nothing to do with it. Well think again! You're transparent!:rolleyes:

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:42 PM
I agree Rock. YS failed miserably in her/his attempt to extol the virtues of Colonialism. It so typical to demonize black african rulers who only got controle of these nations after they have been raped of their natural resources. With all the dimond mines in Africa I doubt any black Africans own any. YS needs to spend some time thinking about what is going on in her native Russia. She still has not given us an explanation as to how a country as mighty as the former USSR can be in such dissarray. I am waiting for an answer sweety...Go figure...:confused:

ys
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:52 PM
I can't respond on some of the posts, Rocketta, because I can't see them. Some of the posters active on this thread are on my ignore list. After reading this post of yours, I am unlikely to be able to respond on your future posts too.:)

Rocketta
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by ys
I can't respond on some of the posts, Rocketta, because I can't see them. Some of the posters active on this thread are on my ignore list. After reading this post of yours, I am unlikely to be able to respond on your future posts too.:)

That's good! That is befitting of someone of your character. Claim you can't read any of the responses so you don't have to be accountable to anything that you post! Great! :D

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 10th, 2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by ys
I can't respond on some of the posts, Rocketta, because I can't see them. Some of the posters active on this thread are on my ignore list. After reading this post of yours, I am unlikely to be able to respond on your future posts too.:)

What did I tell you, typical...:rolleyes:

Talk sh!t and run...Kinda like those fabulous Colonialist that she so loves...:rolleyes:

sorelbow
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:00 AM
congrats eta psi for writing a very intelligent as well as deeply emotional post, where the hurt showed. therefore, i'd suggest those who have not experienced colonialism to be best guided by those who knew: as i say, the hurt still shows.

ys
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:04 AM
No, I just don't think I should waste my time arguing with talking heads unable to think, who don't have a single idea of their own and all they say is what they've heard from some other stupid writer, babbler, demagogues. What's point for me to argue about anything related to Africa or Russia with people who have never been to either Russia or Africa, who know little about either, and all they know is from some stupid book written by biased people, and still they are convinced that they have something to say about it. They have no opinion of their own - they use someone's else borrowed ideas and cliches to argue with me. I don't have that much time on my hands to waste it that way. I can be argueing bitterly with Fignon or disposablehero or Becca or Volcana, but at least I know that I am arguing with someone who use their own thinking abilty to argue me, not some borrowed cliches.

Jakeev
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:11 AM
Hmmmm what was this topoic about again?

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:12 AM
Wow you sure do assume a lot. Is that what people do with your supposed critical thinking skills? Assumptions get you no where, but they sure do come in handy to extract yourself from a discussion you apparently know nothing about except for a few catch phrases and buzz words you probably lifted off CNN.

In any case thank you to the posters who informed me about the topic at hand.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:17 AM
I agree. A clever way to get herself out of an agument she has no business being in.

Rocketta
Jul 11th, 2002, 12:40 AM
ys- the poster who had the most problem with your position clearly states that they are from a colonialized country? Yet you didn't respond. Nobody wants to see dumb arguments either so you shouldn't throw out "buz" words knowing they are going create strife and then try put yourself on a pestal and pretend you are better than?

I think the phrase is , "Don't start none won't be none!" Remember that the next time you want instigate something.

Was Zimbabwe's economy wrecked by colonialism? Was Zambia's economy wrecked by colonialism? In opposite, it was wrecked by savages who replaced colonial rulers.

I believe it was the use of the word "savages" that got this bicker party started. Maybe you should be a little clearer and precise with your postings and things won't spiral down?

longwe
Jul 11th, 2002, 04:48 AM
africa is the home to so much hidden people with such great potential,so sad there is not the means to discover it in many cases & there are greater problems to overcome first(hunger aids poverty poor education and politics.
it does kind of seem that we are the forgotten contenent in tennis.....but not for ever,things will come right & it will be lack of europeans being complained about!*(no offense,im still a great fan of the european tenis greats!!)

ys
Jul 11th, 2002, 05:16 AM
I agree, longwe. I mean, if every American would donate $10 a month to Afirca, it would be enough to provide quality basic education to all poor sub-Saharan Africa. Another $10 would eradicate hunger. And then we could talk about tennis..

The problem, longwe, is that Africa is too volatile to try to change it. Zimbabwe, Angola, Burundi, Ruanda, Congo, DR Congo, many other countries, you never know what their leaders or politicians will be up to even tomorrow.. Just 8 years there was a South African Open.. Feels like yesterday..

nander
Jul 11th, 2002, 05:21 AM
The topic for this thread seemed perfectly fine and legitimate and d good topic to boot. But it didn't take long for the 'stuff' to start. And then we wonder at the animosity so often directed at the Williams (players + family members).
ys you often seem fair and balanced on tennis topics. May I suggest that you stick to those? I have been around long enough and been in both Russia and parts of Africa and believe me 'savagery' is not confined to colour or continents. May I also suggest that it might be worth asking the Maoris (NZ) and Aborigines (Australia) how they feel/felt about colonisation? What do you expect to hear from the 'settlers'?

ys
Jul 11th, 2002, 06:38 AM
ys you often seem fair and balanced on tennis topics. May I suggest that you stick to those?

How rude.. What if I would suggest what you should do and what you shouldn't? Let us both do what we think is right, OK?

and believe me 'savagery' is not confined to colour or continents.

Have I ever suggested otherwise? Or is it your hidden thoughts?

longwe
Jul 11th, 2002, 10:10 AM
in naive manour i wold love to see an open solely for the benifit of africa instead of opens designed to strengthen the corperate wallet.oh well one can always dream!

nander
Jul 11th, 2002, 01:06 PM
At least, maybe you could all listen when people who have lived under and are the products of colonialism speak. Maybe they can add something to the discussion.
I would never presume to speak on behalf of victims of fascism and communism.

ot1962
Jul 11th, 2002, 06:08 PM
ys,
You can speak to me. I would say i am a product of Colonialism. My parents grew up in West africa, and i spent a lot omy youth there.
Could you tell me where you got your view on Africa from please?
From your posts above, i could assume you have not been there before.

ys
Jul 11th, 2002, 06:21 PM
I lived in South Africa for several years. Visited other countries nearby too.. Still have a lot of friends over there. Read South African newspapers of all orientations on regular basis.

Zamboni
Jul 11th, 2002, 06:27 PM
Cybelle, thanx for a great thread, or should I say a great threadidea? ;)

It's nice to hear people are actually developing tennis in their own country! :) (esp glad to hear this about Amanda of course) I wanna add that some European players do the same, but it probably takes much more to do this in a continent like Africa. Maybe people have other stuff on their mind than tennis their, but it can bring some fun in their lives.

For the discussion going on, I want to say that colonialism ain't worse than other versions of dictatorships (MO, but I haven't lived under any of these, I just think so cos it gives the same feelings of being underpressed, and wanting to get free). It's all horrible :(

ot1962
Jul 11th, 2002, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by ys
I lived in South Africa for several years. Visited other countries nearby too.. Still have a lot of friends over there. Read South African newspapers of all orientations on regular basis.

From your posts, i thought you're South African but i got confused with your Russian flag and evident support for the Russian girls (right so!).

You have been singing the SAME kind of tunes i hear a lot of white south africans singing. Always complaing about how worse things have got etc. How horrible the quota system in South africa is, All the jobs are been given to Blacks now etc. (which is absolute rubbish).

I know a black young south african lady here in Colorado undertaking her PhD in Economics. She came over after her undergrad. She wanted to take her Masters in S. Africa but was refused a place, reason being she is not good enough. She got a scholarship to come over here, and She was Absolute top in her class, and the University actually offered her further scholarship to stay on and undertake her PhD.
When she was offered an opportunity to come over here her white collegues were screaming reverse-discrimination, but here is a poor black kid with very good first degree, and she was being denied the opportunity to live up to her potential in her own country, post-apathied! Not to mention how blacks are treat in this present day in South africa.

Sorry for going on on a non-tennis topic:D

ys
Jul 12th, 2002, 12:23 AM
You have been singing the SAME kind of tunes i hear a
lot of white south africans singing.

I think that a lot of South Africans including non-whites ( Indians and "coloured" ) are "singing" the same tune right now..

Always complaing about how worse things have got etc.
They did get worse, there is no question about that. You could feel it in everything.
Currency rate exchange. When I came to there my "salary" in dollar equivalent was 3K. When I was leaving - it was well below 2K, even if it increased significantly in Rands ( that was the main reason I left - I was not interested in Rands, I needed $$).

Road quality - which when I arrived to there was the best I've ever seen - far exceeding American - and when I was leaving was of New-Jersey or New-York quality.

Crime. It was relatively safe when I arrived to there. By the time I was leaving - 4 out 5 people permanently working in our company
became victims of violent crime. Fortunately, neither one was hurt. But 3 out of 4 spent some hours looking into AK-47 barrel. The only one not involved was myself, probably because I was living a very economical way - little flat, little car.. All 5 those people , me including, had no problem finding a good job in US or UK. When I was leaving, it was really deteriorating, people were installing electrical fences, hiring private guard companies, it was officially allowed not to stop on red light after 7PM..

How horrible the quota system in South africa is, All the jobs are been given to Blacks now etc. (which is absolute rubbish).

I am not enititled to talk about that because I know very little. Those jobs in question were mostly low-paid/low-qualification governmental jobs. Though when my friend arrived to RSA, the clerks in Internal Affairs were mostly whites, and he got his permanent residence processed within 3 monthes. When I applied, one year later, affirmative action was at full swing, and ironically, I was approved only when I already had my ticket to the States. It took 18 months. I can't say that I either approve or condemn AA. I don't think AA is the answer to the problem, neither I think that the preexisting situation was acceptable. There should have been some better way to fix it. But frankly, it was not concerning me, on the level of my qualification there would never be any AA.


Not to mention how blacks are treat in this present day in South africa.

I thought that blacks rule in this present ady in South Africa. I am afraid that looking at what happening in Zim right now, many white South Africans will be seeing their own future. Unfortunately, wise people like Mandela are rare who knew how to deal with racial extremism among their own race. Mbeki is not a mandela, of course, but neither he is a mugabe. So nothing is lost at the moment. I am still reasonably optimistic about South African future.

And, if someone thinks that this thread should be bounced into NT forum, why not..

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 12th, 2002, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by ys

Road quality - which when I arrived to there was the best I've ever seen - far exceeding American - and when I was leaving was of New-Jersey or New-York quality.

Crime. It was relatively safe when I arrived to there. By the time I was leaving - 4 out 5 people permanently working in our company
became victims of violent crime. Fortunately, neither one was hurt. But 3 out of 4 spent some hours looking into AK-47 barrel. The only one not involved was myself, probably because I was living a very economical way - little flat, little car.. All 5 those people , me including, had no problem finding a good job in US or UK. When I was leaving, it was really deteriorating, people were installing electrical fences, hiring private guard companies, it was officially allowed not to stop on red light after 7PM..


Worst than Moscow too? wow...Because as far as I know Russia is in a state of near lawlessness...OOPs, I am on your ignore list. Shoot...:rolleyes:

nander
Jul 12th, 2002, 12:02 PM
Now the reactions and attitudes displayed (here on this board, not in whatever other aspects of life that we don't know about) by ys make sense.
Isn't it remarkable that we expect that countries such as SA and Zim are going to be perfect a decade or so after such fundamental changes are made? Look at the mess that was inherited in terms of wealth distribution etc. All the so-called modern industrial countries have had their share of disaster and grief as their countries evolved. For them that is history. For many of us, that kind of history is still in the making and mistakes will be made. Now it is all over the news almost before it happens. This is not a plea for accepting bad government of whatever type but a realisation that it will take time. One hopes that sober and well-thinking heads will prevail as we strive to sort things out for the benefit of the majority.
Let those who can, travel from counrtry to country looking for the good life. Most people can't.
Meantime, referring to people as 'savages reflects' on the people making the accusations as much as it does on those being so designated. Remember how Mandela was regarded by (for the most part) the white SA government - I am sure they thought 'savage' to be too good a description.

Sophie
Jul 12th, 2002, 06:19 PM
I have never been to Russia but it seems to me that many of ys comments regarding SA could easily apply to Russia right now. It is extremely difficult to change an economic system over to a free market economy, and most countries that are attempting to do so are struggling. All South Africans are committed to improving the quality of life for everyone in this country, and yes, tennis is hardly a concern, just an amusing distraction really.