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cook29
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:37 PM
Although it can be argued that justine is the best player at the moment and possibly the last 2 years, it still is absolutely certain that serena is still the best player of her generation, she has won more slams then justine as of date and has the complete grand slam set.When and if , justine should win wimbledon, we can then start arguing but as of this moment serena is still the best of her generation.

It also must ne noted taht serena has won every grand slam except the french more then once, justine has only won the french multiple times.Serena has also had far more extensive consistent injuries and has played far less.

If justine should win wimbledon, then it could start to become interesting over the next few years but a little bird told me that a williams sister is going to catch up on justine's 4 frech open titles but at wimbledon.The venus rosewater dish will go back to its rightful owner.

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:38 PM
It's important for Justine to win this title. She had plenty of chances last year, and didn't.

mdterp01
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Serena will remain the best player of her generation for some time. Lets not forget that she has the career slam in DOUBLES as well. How many grand slam doubles titles does Justine have? People seem to not include her grand slam doubles into her count. That adds to her greatness. 15 slams total!! So as far as I'm concerned...this is not even a question that needs to be posed, and STILL won't be a question posed should Justine win Wimbledon this year. Justine, however, is the best player currently before her match with Serena, and I still would've considered Justine the best even had Serena won. Justine has the #1 ranking and has been more consistent than Serena. Justine certainly got over a hurdle in terms of beating Serena on a surface other than clay, but she was the best player before the Serena match.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:47 PM
Also, Serena's only 1 slam away from a career DOUBLE SLAM (she has 3 Oz Opens, 2 Wimbledons and US Opens). I think that would further distance Serena in terms of career achievements.

And also the Serena Slam, but honestly, she needs to get to #9 before Justine gets to #8, and stay at least 2 ahead for a couple of years.

Serena!
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:49 PM
Serena will remain the best player of her generation for some time. Lets not forget that she has the career slam in DOUBLES as well. How many grand slam doubles titles does Justine have? People seem to not include her grand slam doubles into her count. That adds to her greatness. 15 slams total!! So as far as I'm concerned...this is not even a question that needs to be posed, and STILL won't be a question posed should Justine win Wimbledon this year. Justine, however, is the best player currently before her match with Serena, and I still would've considered Justine the best even had Serena won. Justine has the #1 ranking and has been more consistent than Serena. Justine certainly got over a hurdle in terms of beating Serena on a surface other than clay, but she was the best player before the Serena match.

I agree. Serena has a career singles, doubles, and half mixed doubles grand slam. Not to mention she has held all four singles grand slams at the same time. I don't feel like you can be the greatest o your generation with no doubles grand slams under your belt, without holding all four of the slams at the same time, or if you havn't won 2 or 3 of the slams more than once. At the moment, yes Justine is the top player, she's playing amazing tennis, but she isn't the greatest of this generation.

Dave.
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:51 PM
hmm....she is the most accomplished active singles player. :)

SharapovaFan16
Jul 5th, 2007, 02:53 PM
but who cares? i don't... women's tennis is in the dumps right now. no excitement or draw what so ever.

thrust
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:00 PM
Singles is what counts as to a players greatness, not doubles or mixed doubles. I do agree though that, as of now, Serena is the best of her generation. The close second best could be decided on Saturday, if Justine and Venus reach the finals. Hopefully, they will!

Ntour
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:06 PM
we're talking singles her, you can't compare doubles because justine doesn't play and never really did

also serena is still ahead in singles, for now...

SV_Fan
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Also, Serena's only 1 slam away from a career DOUBLE SLAM (she has 3 Oz Opens, 2 Wimbledons and US Opens). I think that would further distance Serena in terms of career achievements.

And also the Serena Slam, but honestly, she needs to get to #9 before Justine gets to #8, and stay at least 2 ahead for a couple of years.

Yeah she really needs that French Open title she would gotten it in 03 had Justine cheated and ruined her spirits like the Wimby commentator said.

SV_Fan
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:14 PM
hmm....she is the most accomplished active singles player. :)

AND she BLACK and that's even better.

dreamgoddess099
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Everybody knows this, Serena has won the most slams. Justine fans are really just getting ahead of themselves, she is still two matches from winning this title, and who knows what will happen in the final. Venus is just as good on grass as Justine is on clay, I totally love how some have just counted Venus out completely and basically given Justine the title. That could come back to bite them on the ass. And I'm sure Ivanovic will be looking for revenge for that FO final, I'm sure she'll play much better being in her second slam final and on grass. Not to mention, Justine still has to get past Bartoli who has no pressure what so ever. I'm sure we all witnessed how well a player with absolutely no pressure can play in this very championship in 2004. So nothing set in stone yet. Except that Serena is still the greatest.:nerner:

dreamgoddess099
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:14 PM
AND she BLACK and that's even better.

Who's black? Ana?

Karsten Braasch
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:15 PM
McEnroe would double bagel Serena any day of the week.

dreamgoddess099
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:16 PM
but who cares? i don't... women's tennis is in the dumps right now. no excitement or draw what so ever.

Some how I don't think you would have such a sucky attitude if Maria had won.

Ntour
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:16 PM
nobody has said that justine is greater yet
WTF are you on about, serena is still ahead in singles, for now

lucashg
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:30 PM
This thread is full of bullshit. I don't see Justine fans arguing whether her career is greater than Serena's or not nor that she already won this year's Wimbledon. I've seen Justine fans as a whole much more respectful to Bartoli than her non-fans. Justine is only in the semifinal as the other three contenders. And nobody is counting Venus out, from her first three matches though, a lot of people thought she wouldn't improve and lose to Sharapova and that include TONS of Williams fans. So don't be such hypocrites!

And doubles count for absolutely NOTHING. It's a different sport altogether. Gone are the days where top women constantly played doubles. Look at the men's tour, the greatest are considered as such because of their singles career, not their doubles achievement.

Serena is clearly the most accomplished active singles player. Justine is right behind, then Hingis and Venus. If Venus wins, she still won't surpass Justine, but be in equal terms. If Justine wins, then she's a much more clear #2 than now, and if Ivanovic or Bartoli win, well then nothing changes.

Onyxangel
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:31 PM
Yeah she really needs that French Open title she would gotten it in 03 had Justine cheated and ruined her spirits like the Wimby commentator said.

If I believed that Rena was that weak mentally, I would buy this... but she's not...

Onyxangel
Jul 5th, 2007, 03:33 PM
AND she BLACK and that's even better.

...And if I were obnoxiously racist, I would buy this... but I'm not...

misael
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:04 PM
Doubles mean very little. Steffi Graf, Chris Evert, and Monica Seles have won 22 double tournaments between them.I do think that Justine will keep Serena in the game longer,and hopefully they will play many times, and go back and forth...Serena won their first 2 matches then Justine won , then Serena 2 in a row,Justine 2 in a row, Serena 2 in a row, and now Justine 2 in arow.

The Kaz
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:10 PM
:yawn:

treufreund
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM
:yawn:

Hmm time for a cup of decaf.

jujufreak
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:16 PM
Although it can be argued that justine is the best player at the moment and possibly the last 2 years, it still is absolutely certain that serena is still the best player of her generation, she has won more slams then justine as of date and has the complete grand slam set.When and if , justine should win wimbledon, we can then start arguing but as of this moment serena is still the best of her generation.

It also must ne noted taht serena has won every grand slam except the french more then once, justine has only won the french multiple times.Serena has also had far more extensive consistent injuries and has played far less.

has there been anyone who stated Justine is now the best player of her generation? I don't think so :)

Serena's "far more extensive consistent injuries" and her playing far less shouldn't be criteria to judge who's the best ;)

Edward.
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:29 PM
This thread is a sign of insecurity, when Serena fans really shouldn't have anything to be insecure about.

rottweily
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Make a proper title :rolleyes:

Lulu.
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:43 PM
Of course she's the best was this thread necessary?

mdterp01
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:47 PM
Oh...but doubles DO count because you people make it seem as if Serena only played singles in those slams. Its not like she chose one or the other. She played both of them. So sorry...don't buy it. And just like I said in my previous post, this is something that should not even be up for debate or necessary to start a thread about because the facts are there. 8 singles slams, has won each of the slams at least twice except for the French Open, career slam in doubles, Olympic gold, 2 mixed doubles titles. People at the end of the day who are trying to only make it about singles are disrespecting the sport. I'm sure had the roles been reversed, doubles would become OH SO IMPORTANT!! :rolleyes:

No Name Face
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:48 PM
This thread is a sign of insecurity, when Serena fans really shouldn't have anything to be insecure about.

correct. but don't generalize us all because we're not trying to rub it in...it's one fan.

No Name Face
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:50 PM
if justine manages to win eight slams, which is seemingly possible and serena does not win any more, then the determining factor should be:
1. doubles/mixed doubles slams
2. weeks at #1
3. H2H's with other top five players

(in determining who's greater)

jujufreak
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:55 PM
And just like I said in my previous post, this is something that should not even be up for debate or necessary to start a thread about because the facts are there.

that's what every Justine fan is saying :)

jujufreak
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:57 PM
I'm sure had the roles been reversed, doubles would become OH SO IMPORTANT!! :rolleyes:

I'm sure Justine and Venus would have been a magic doubles pair :D

in doubles you have to be lucky to have a good partner...

jujufreak
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:57 PM
Of course she's the best was this thread necessary?

No :)

Hashim.
Jul 5th, 2007, 04:58 PM
yup she is so :scratch:

Fedcup
Jul 5th, 2007, 05:42 PM
.

It also must ne noted taht serena has won every grand slam except the french more then once, justine has only won the french multiple times.Serena has also had far more extensive consistent injuries and has played far less.

r.

Beiing the best of your generation is preparing yourself by hard training and beiing fit so that you can participate...
It's not the on-court that makes you a great champion...all the work has to be done off-court when nobody is paying attention. It's easy to go to party's. A true Champion remains training and sleeping and training and sleeping...

The fact that Serena missed so much is her on fault...So I don't care if Serena has played less. At the end of their careers we will see who had the more GS wins...then we can say who's the best...BTW Justine's career started later as that of Serena. :p

Dave.
Jul 5th, 2007, 05:52 PM
AND she BLACK and that's even better.

What do you mean?:confused:

Adamatp
Jul 5th, 2007, 06:08 PM
Of course she is. Is anyone saying otherwise?

Nemo_Kool
Jul 5th, 2007, 08:48 PM
hmm..those who say o Justine doesnt play doubles is just testament to Serena being a better player..not only can she dominate singles but she and Venus together made a successful transistion to doubles...isnt it Justine apparent inability to do this something which suggests she isnt as complete or accomplished player as serena?

Dave.
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Justine's decision to not play doubles is her own problem and limits her achievements to singles.

Matt01
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:01 PM
isnt it Justine apparent inability to do this something which suggests she isnt as complete or accomplished player as serena?

In a word: No! :p

trufanjay
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Serena has been the best of this generation since 2002. Why is it so hard for people to understand that?

Kunal
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:03 PM
yeap she is the best player of her generation.

she got an unlucky break this time...but she will be doing well in the nex few years

Vlad Tepes
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Although it can be argued that justine is the best player at the moment and possibly the last 2 years, it still is absolutely certain that serena is still the best player of her generation, she has won more slams then justine as of date and has the complete grand slam set.When and if , justine should win wimbledon, we can then start arguing but as of this moment serena is still the best of her generation.

It also must ne noted taht serena has won every grand slam except the french more then once, justine has only won the french multiple times.Serena has also had far more extensive consistent injuries and has played far less.
If justine should win wimbledon, then it could start to become interesting over the next few years but a little bird told me that a williams sister is going to catch up on justine's 4 frech open titles but at wimbledon.The venus rosewater dish will go back to its rightful owner.

Do you realize how stupid this argument is? It's nobody's fault that Serena was injured, out of shape, having other interests or priorities except her own for the latter part. If you would apply this silly judgement, than anyone who played tennis for a month or won a tournament could say: If I had played for another decade, I would have been the greatest ever, but you just cannot say such a thing. It's not Justine's fault that Serena only plays a limited amount of tournaments and she gets injured often, so they must be compared for what they play.
Serena's doubles record is impressive and certanly adds to her legacy, but let's not forget other singles stats (more important, you have to agree) where Justine is in front, like: number of tournaments won, weeks at #1, Olympic gold medal in singles, etc., so don't be so quick to put Serena miles ahead - things could change very quickly! :wavey:

Chrissie-fan
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:16 PM
hmm..those who say o Justine doesnt play doubles is just testament to Serena being a better player..not only can she dominate singles but she and Venus together made a successful transistion to doubles...isnt it Justine apparent inability to do this something which suggests she isnt as complete or accomplished player as serena?
The fact that Justine doesn't play doubles doesn't prove that she wouldn't be able to be succesful at it if she wanted to. I'm not one of those who thinks that Serena's success in doubles is meaningless. It ain't, it counts for something. On the other hand, Justine's more consistent career in singles counts for something too. I think that Justine's win yesterday was a key victory for her in her rivalry with Serena. If she had lost that one everyone would have said that while she's the best on clay she still isn't able to beat Serena anywhere else. So, key victory for her, both statistically and psychologically important for future match-ups. And it keeps her hopes of completing a career Grand Slam and narrowing the gap to just one slam singles title in relation to Serena alive. Seven vs eight doesn't make that much of a difference and it would make the "who's the best player of this generation" a legitimate issue IMO. I think we'll have to wait another three or four years before we can answer that question with any certainty and even then we may come to the conclusion that they are more or less equals.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:25 PM
Honestly, she'd need to beat a non-hobbled Serena on grass to prove anything deeper about this match-up. Yeah she did win, but the quality of her opponent wasn't that high. Meaning, yeah, she won the match, but that was all it was, a win. It wasn't a proclamation that she's better than Serena on grass. Not in the least bit.

Olórin
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:28 PM
The fact that Justine doesn't play doubles doesn't prove that she wouldn't be able to be succesful at it if she wanted to. I'm not one of those who thinks that Serena's success in doubles is meaningless. It ain't, it counts for something. On the other hand, Justine's more consistent career in singles counts for something too. I think that Justine's win yesterday was a key victory for her in her rivalry with Serena. If she had lost that one everyone would have said that while she's the best on clay she still isn't able to beat Serena anywhere else. So, key victory for her, both statistically and psychologically important for future match-ups. And it keeps her hopes of completing a career Grand Slam and narrowing the gap to just one slam singles title in relation to Serena alive. Seven vs eight doesn't make that much of a difference and it would make the "who's the best player of this generation" a legitimate issue IMO. I think we'll have to wait another three or four years before we can answer that question with any certainty and even then we may come to the conclusion that they are more or less equals.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Justine's career has been more consistent. In fact Id say that if not for 2005/2006 slump Serena's has been more consistent. She's been a top player since she was 17 and has nearly always been in contention. Whereas Justine had a while and some dodgy results she really reached the elite when she was 20/21.

Until Justine wins Wimbledon she can't even be in contention for best of this generation. The Serena Slam is one of the greatest achievements in the history of tennis and Justine would have to surpass Serena's total slam haul by 2 or 3 slams imo to surpass Serena in terms of greatness, I would also say it would help her case if she could be a multiple champion at other slams other than RG. And she would have to beat Serena quite a lot more on non-clay surfaces to do any of this.

Can't see all that happening to be honest. The year isn't over yet, Justine may be number one but Venus is still alive in Wimbledon and if Serena goes on a rampage in the US a la 2001. EVERYONE had better look out as she could steal the year and retain a comfortable lead in slam hauls over everyone else.

cellophane
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Why don't you go and hand out "Serena is better than Henin" pamphlets? :yawn: Some people are really insecure about Justine getting close to Serena in the number of slams. :tape:

supergrunt
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:32 PM
Well I think that Justine is a very close second. Worst comes to worst, they're equal. Henin still has not yet achieved what Serena has. I do think that at the moment Henin is playing better tennis than Serena.

Olórin
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:42 PM
Well I think that Justine is a very close second. Worst comes to worst, they're equal. Henin still has not yet achieved what Serena has. I do think that at the moment Henin is playing better tennis than Serena.

I don't think it's close at all to be honest. Serena is in a league of her own. The question of second best player of this generation is on the line in the final of Wimbledon.

There isn't even a discussion over the first.

Chrissie-fan
Jul 5th, 2007, 09:45 PM
Honestly, she'd need to beat a non-hobbled Serena on grass to prove anything deeper about this match-up. Yeah she did win, but the quality of her opponent wasn't that high. Meaning, yeah, she won the match, but that was all it was, a win. It wasn't a proclamation that she's better than Serena on grass. Not in the least bit.
I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does, but when you come on court it means that you're ready to play. If you win you deserve the credit for doing so and by the same token if your opponent wins she deserves the same. Do I believe that Serena's injuries are on the level? Definitely. Did they bother her during the match? Probably, yes. But it was still a Serena Williams playing a good enough match to beat almost anyone else losing to Justine on grass. Serena's injuries take nothing away from Justine's win IMO, just like Sharapova's shoulder problems take nothing away from Serena or Venus destroying her in their recent matches. All this doesn't prove that Justine is a better grasscourt player than Serena of course, but at the very least it proves that she can compete with her on this surface and that the results of their matches are a very long way from a foregone conclusion, no matter what the surface may be.

Conor
Jul 5th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Of course Serena is still the best of her generation... she has the most slams out of any of the players and has a winning head to head with just about everyone...

Conor
Jul 5th, 2007, 10:19 PM
I don't think it's close at all to be honest. Serena is in a league of her own. The question of second best player of this generation is on the line in the final of Wimbledon.

There isn't even a discussion over the first.

You were quick to rule out Ivanovic weren't you... she did just reach the French Open final ya know! :rolleyes:

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:05 PM
If Justine wins the final, and she still has 2 matches to go, then it gets very close.

Apoleb
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:08 PM
I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it does, but when you come on court it means that you're ready to play. If you win you deserve the credit for doing so and by the same token if your opponent wins she deserves the same. Do I believe that Serena's injuries are on the level? Definitely. Did they bother her during the match? Probably, yes. But it was still a Serena Williams playing a good enough match to beat almost anyone else losing to Justine on grass. Serena's injuries take nothing away from Justine's win IMO, just like Sharapova's shoulder problems take nothing away from Serena or Venus destroying her in their recent matches. All this doesn't prove that Justine is a better grasscourt player than Serena of course, but at the very least it proves that she can compete with her on this surface and that the results of their matches are a very long way from a foregone conclusion, no matter what the surface may be.

Perfectly said.

Matt01
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:24 PM
Of course Serena is still the best of her generation... she has the most slams out of any of the players and has a winning head to head with just about everyone...

I don't think that head-to-heads are really of significant importance when determing who is the greatest.

Lulu.
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:31 PM
I don't think that head-to-heads are really of significant importance when determing who is the greatest.

In this case it does.

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Not with players as inconsistent as the Williams sisters. Venus can't get to Justine in 9 out of 10 tournaments.
Serena has won 2 tournaments in 30 months.
They usually get bounced early.

Matt01
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:35 PM
In this case it does.

Why? Because it is Serena?

Lulu.
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Why? Because it is Serena?

:rolleyes:

Because she has a H2H lead over pretty much all the top players.

Matt01
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:41 PM
It's still not of siginificant importance for me.

Lulu.
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:43 PM
It's still not of siginificant importance for me.

Who cares about you? It's of significant importance to anyone with some sense

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Serena loses to Bammer Zvonareva Schnyder. And obviously, she's been losing to Justine twice in a row and Amelie at majors, and Jankovic in Cal.
There's no consistency.

Matt01
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Who cares about you? It's of significant importance to anyone with some sense

Yeah, dream on, sweetie :kiss:

heytennis
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:47 PM
H2H has absolutely no relevance to who is the best player of a generation. Playing styles just don't match up well. Petrova can't beat Chakvetadze. Is Chakvetadze more accomplished? No.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Not with players as inconsistent as the Williams sisters. Venus can't get to Justine in 9 out of 10 tournaments.
Serena has won 2 tournaments in 30 months.
They usually get bounced early.

2 tournament in 6 months :shrug:

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:49 PM
2 tournament wins in 30 months for Serena.

Geisha
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:52 PM
Well I think that Justine is a very close second. Worst comes to worst, they're equal. Henin still has not yet achieved what Serena has. I do think that at the moment Henin is playing better tennis than Serena.

Most definitely. Serena has more Grand Slams. Justine is currently the on-form player. She has beaten Serena in the last two Grand Slams.

Serena is still ahead, in my opinion, due to her Serena Slam, which truly exemplifies how a player handles pressure, different surfaces, and dominates the tour through one whole year.

Another thing, Serena won her first Grand Slam in 1999. She won her most recent in 2007. That is too much longevity for Justine to attend to...not saying that she won't have the longevity Serena has, but she has not quite reached that.

And the doubles argument. If we count the 62 Grand Slams won by Court, then we count them for Serena. She has six Grand Slams in doubles, including the career doubles slam, and she has won two other mixed doubles titles, not to mention an Olympic Gold. Justine doesn't play doubles. So...Serena wins there.

Serena-rules-no1
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:52 PM
still the best on court and the best in nutrition habits :worship:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/genci/SerenaWilliams1.jpg

Geisha
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:53 PM
2 tournament wins in 30 months for Serena.

Seles didn't win a Slam from '96-2003. Does that mean her results from '90-'95 don't count?

tennisjunky
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Serena loses to Bammer Zvonareva Schnyder. And obviously, she's been losing to Justine twice in a row and Amelie at majors, and Jankovic in Cal.
There's no consistency.

2007
hobart- QFs
Australian- W
Miami- W
Rome- QFs
French- QFs
Wimbledon- QFs

looks like she's consistent to me:confused:

goldenslam888
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:54 PM
justine has:

more weeks at #1
more yearend #1's
won more tournaments
has 6 slams(probably 7), 2 yearend champsionships, 1 gold medal
is the current #1

and is still a year younger. the trend also favors justine.

who's the best is certainly debatable.

Geisha
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:54 PM
H2H has absolutely no relevance to who is the best player of a generation. Playing styles just don't match up well. Petrova can't beat Chakvetadze. Is Chakvetadze more accomplished? No.

I think that is true to a certain extent. I mean, if these two both end their careers with 10 GS each, and Justine has a 30-6 lead in their H2H then obviously Justine has the edge.

Conor
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:55 PM
But to be honest, Serena did have a lot of personal problems which did interfere badly with her tennis career... right now I give it to Serena. But were Justine to win Wimbledon and keep up with her consistency then things could change...

goldenlox
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:56 PM
If you think she's a QF type player. She got to 2 semis
But Justine needs a Wimbledon, then the discussion really heats up

Geisha
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:56 PM
justine has:

more weeks at #1
more yearend #1's
won more tournaments
has 6 slams(probably 7), 2 yearend champsionships, 1 gold medal
is the current #1

and is still a year younger. the trend also favors justine.

who's the best is certainly debatable.

Who has the better winning percentage? Who has won more quality tournaments? Better records against top ten players? Top five? Doubles?...

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:56 PM
Serena loses to Bammer Zvonareva Schnyder. And obviously, she's been losing to Justine twice in a row and Amelie at majors, and Jankovic in Cal.
There's no consistency.

OMFG! Wow are we really going to do this?!

Ok, first: 2006 is "the past" :o, move on.

Serena has lost 1 match on HC this year 7-5 in the 3rd to Bammer, 3 matches on clay (inc. a retirement), and 1 on grass (to the world #1)

26-5 how is that NOT consistent? :shrug: 3 straight GS QF or better. Not losing a completed match before the quarters? 2/7 she reached the semis or better.

How is that NOT consistent.

She lost 2 matches to the world #1, but she also beat her too. She's 7-0 against other top 10 players in 2007.

9-2 vs. Top 10 in 2007 are you SHITTING me?! NOT consistent? :lol: PUH-LEASE!

Conor
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:57 PM
justine has:

more weeks at #1
more yearend #1's
won more tournaments
has 6 slams(probably 7), 2 yearend champsionships, 1 gold medal
is the current #1

and is still a year younger. the trend also favors justine.

who's the best is certainly debatable.

Do not say 'probably 7!' :rolleyes: There is still 2 tough matches left...
And Justine only has 1 YEC
And Serena is only about 8 months older which is nothing really...

Geisha
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:57 PM
All I know is that Serena has won eight GS, four Miami titles, the Year-End championships, has won eight doubles GS in total, and has a stunning winning percentage...and she was injured in the prime of her career, so?

heytennis
Jul 5th, 2007, 11:59 PM
It all depends on where Serena goes from here. This could turn into a 2005 if she is injured and loses her motivation. When she wins an event besides AO or Miami then I'll know she's "back".

tennisjunky
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:02 AM
serena is tops but justine is moving in on her. i would be lying if i didn't say that her winning wibledon scares me most because it puts her right up there with serena. and because of her focus i could see her playing tennis till shes 40 passing serena by. so she must be stopped and serena must keep winning to keep herself out front.

but anyone with eyes knows justine is getting closer.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:03 AM
2 tournament wins in 30 months for Serena.

Well, when you play 4 tournaments in one year, you're not really expected to win a lot of them. Especially when you're playing GSs and you're outside the top 100, but beating 3 top 15 players was a nice touch though :)

Since the AI 2005 injury, she played 9 tournaments before 2007 season. Jankovic played more tournaments than that in Jan-March.

You can't even compare that. And get out of the past. She's won 2 tournaments THIS year, and she #5 in the race THIS year, and #7 in the world THIS year.



:o and they say Williams Fans/Reetards/etc. are stuck in the past :rolleyes:

Matt01
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM
But to be honest, Serena did have a lot of personal problems which did interfere badly with her tennis career...

Yes, and this very sad, but it's not really relevant here IMO.
Justine also had personal problems, Seles had lots of personal problems in her career, but you have to look at the achievements of each player when you compare them and not their personal problems which hindered their career anytime...

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:04 AM
Do not say 'probably 7!' :rolleyes: There is still 2 tough matches left...
And Justine only has 1 YEC
And Serena is only about 8 months older which is nothing really...

correction: 1 yearend champ.

justine stills owns a lot of statistics.

and justine is a heavy favorite to win wimby 2007.

to say the point is not debatable is just plain wrong, especially given the current trend.

goldenlox
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:05 AM
I'm talking about the last 30 months. Williams fans are still discussing 2002 like it was 2006
Being the favorite doesn't matter. She needs a Wimbledon to be an alltime great.
Except for Seles, who was knifed at 19.

Conor
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:09 AM
correction: 1 yearend champ.

justine stills owns a lot of statistics.

and justine is a heavy favorite to win wimby 2007.

to say the point is not debatable is just plain wrong.

Ammm I did say 1 YEC :confused: Heavy favourite doesnt mean you're going to win :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:10 AM
serena is tops but justine is moving in on her. i would be lying if i didn't say that her winning wibledon scares me most because it puts her right up there with serena. and because of her focus i could see her playing tennis till shes 40 passing serena by. so she must be stopped and serena must keep winning to keep herself out front.

but anyone with eyes knows justine is getting closer.


:worship: :worship:

and hopefully maria get her head together too.

Fedcup
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:11 AM
Honestly, she'd need to beat a non-hobbled Serena on grass to prove anything deeper about this match-up. Yeah she did win, but the quality of her opponent wasn't that high. Meaning, yeah, she won the match, but that was all it was, a win. It wasn't a proclamation that she's better than Serena on grass. Not in the least bit.

And it wasn't high too at RG...so you admit she's no longer the great,dominating player?

goldenlox
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM
When Serena was winning, she was awesome. People talk about the hand incident, but that really was nothing.

The big deal was that Serena was going for 5 straight majors on her worst surface, and she was playing a great clay courter.
And all the pressure was on Serena.

Like the 2 Borg-McEnroe Wimbledon finals. All the pressure was on Borg. You are never getting another chance to win 6 Wimbledons in a row, or 5 majors in a row.

Serena was really good that day, up a break in the 3rd, and then excellent at Wimbledon.
Then injuries.

But it's 2007 now, and Justine has been grinding out at least one major every year. Consistency vs brilliance.

That's why if Justine wins Wimbledon, it's a great discussion.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:16 AM
I'm talking about the last 30 months. Williams fans are still discussing 2002 like it was 2006

Well some people are discussing 2006 like the AO loss to Hantuchova was yesterday or the USO loss to Mauresmo JUST happened.

Serena's #7 now, not #15, not #140, #7. Her ranking is a high as it's been since 2005, and (barring the most recent injuries) playing as well now as she's been for a LONG time.

and people still discuss 2002, just like they do 1988 or 1997, because she dominated the tour in EVERY possible way. She dominated #2, who dominated #3-#100000. It was the Serena Show, and NO WTA player has been able to repeat that. When it happens, then THAT year will be hailed, but you should really stop eating those sour grapes, they make your face look funny.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:18 AM
And it wasn't high too at RG...so you admit she's no longer the great,dominating player?

Off of hardcourts, she hasn't been dominant :shrug:, but great, yes.

darrinbaker00
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:19 AM
Honestly, she'd need to beat a non-hobbled Serena on grass to prove anything deeper about this match-up. Yeah she did win, but the quality of her opponent wasn't that high. Meaning, yeah, she won the match, but that was all it was, a win. It wasn't a proclamation that she's better than Serena on grass. Not in the least bit.
It was a proclamation that Justine was better than Serena THAT DAY, my friend, just like Serena's win in Miami was a proclamation that she was better than Justine THAT DAY.

mirzalover
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:22 AM
I think Justine and Serena are this generation's martina chris or monica steffi. In the end I bet you they will end up having around the same numbers of Majors or one my have one or two more than the other but it wont matter cause both sides will have basis for saying one was better as good or not really on the same level because she was hurt old retarded or stabed.

But I hope Serena ends up having more slams but somebody needs to stop Justine at the french.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:48 AM
correction: 1 yearend champ.

justine stills owns a lot of statistics.

and justine is a heavy favorite to win wimby 2007.

to say the point is not debatable is just plain wrong, especially given the current trend.

Serena leads Justine 6-5 (1-1 on grass, 1-4 on clay, 4-0 on hard)

Serena has 8 GS titles (2 finals) and a 80% GS final w/l record. Justine has 6 GS titles (4 finals) and a 60% GS final w/l record.

Serena's GS W/L record is: 131-12 (85.6%)
Justine's is: 111-22 (83.4%)

Serena has 30+ wins at 3/4 GS, Justine has 30+ at 1. (If she won Wimbledon 2007, she would be at 29-6. Serena is at 29-6 at the FO)

Serena has 28 tour titles (all Tier II and above). Justine has 31 Tier II + titles.

Serena's W/L record is 346-72 (82.7%), Justine's is 452-102 (81.5%)

Serena's record against Top 10/Slam winners is: 44-19 (69.8%)
Justine's is: 54-27 (66.6%)

Serena's been #1 for 57 consecutive weeks. Justine is currently #1 for 72 total weeks (2/3 times @ #1, not 100% sure).


I don't see how Justine OWNS lots of stats against Serena, but she plays much more than she does, and that shows in her results.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:50 AM
McEnroe would double bagel Serena any day of the week.
John's pro tennis career is over. John wants to be a celebrity, and in the celebrity competition, Serena TRIPLE bagels John :o

Onyxangel
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:06 AM
Jeez,

This is still being argued?

Really, is there ANYONE here who honestly believes that right NOW, Justine's career puts her ahead of Serena for the best of this generation? Or is everybody here just arguing what-ifs?

Right NOW, Serena has the more distinguished career, PERIOD... even IF Ju wins Wimby here, Rena STILL has a more impressive career (although the gap would be notably less). IF and WHEN Ju catches Rena in slam totals, THEN you can BEGIN this discussion... until then it's all speculation with no substance, and hardly worth the arguments.

Geisha
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Jeez,

This is still being argued?

Really, is there ANYONE here who honestly believes that right NOW, Justine's career puts her ahead of Serena for the best of this generation? Or is everybody here just arguing what-ifs?

Right NOW, Serena has the more distinguished career, PERIOD... even IF Ju wins Wimby here, Rena STILL has a more impressive career (although the gap would be notably less). IF and WHEN Ju catches Rena in slam totals, THEN you can BEGIN this discussion... until then it's all speculation with no substance, and hardly worth the arguments.

I totally agree. Not only did Serena almost beat Justine with no left hand, but here are some statistics that will prove that Serena's career is definitely more distinguished than her rivals.

Serena's overall win-loss record is better than Justine's. Justine's record is even enhanced by her many ITF titles early in her career.

Serena has two more Grand Slams. She has a better win-loss record in the Grand Slams other than the French Open. She has won the career Grand Slam.

Justine has more overall titles with 31. But, four of those titles were won at events Tier III or lower. Serena has 28 titles Tier II or higher and Justine has 27.

Since 1999, when Justine began playing WTA Tour events, Serena had a better yearly win-loss record from 1999 to 2003, while Justine's has been better from 2004-2007. Serena still had more "better" years.

Also, Justine has been past the R16 of the US Open twice. TWICE. Serena has won the tournament twice and reached the QF or better five times.

Serena's best 15 consecutive tournaments were from Paris in '02 to Miami in '04. She compiled a 78-5 record. Better than Justine's best 15 consecutive tournaments, from Paris in '06 to Wimbledon in '07, which was 71-6.

Yes, Justine has more weeks at #1 and ended the year twice. She also has more match wins. :S And she won the Olympics Gold. But, Serena has six GS in doubles and an Olympic Gold, and also two other GS in mixed doubles. :s

goldenlox
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Justine has an Olympic Gold in singles, so if she wins Wimbledon she'll have all 5 big titles

Donny
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:55 AM
Justine has an Olympic Gold in singles, so if she wins Wimbledon she'll have all 5 big titles

The Olympic gold medal in tennis isn't a "big" title. It wasn't even part of the Olympics for most of the 20th century.

T-GIRL87
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:02 AM
As great as it would of been for Serena to have beaten Justine, in seeing the way Serena's progressed within only a matter of months, It should occur to some people that Serena is still pretty young. Even with the couple of losses she's had, I still don't feel this is the final nail in the coffin for her. She still has a plenty of time left in her career to be a dominate force in the majors. With the William Sisters, I don't think it was ever a priority of their's to eclispe the likes of Graf, Evert, and all the other greats. Where as a player like Justine will always eat, breath and sleep tennis. If both Serena and Venus can maintain a level of focus, they won't have to worry about falling behind, if they manage to take the game seriously for now on.

goldenlox
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:12 AM
What Justine does is what champions do. She tries to be the best she can be.
That's pretty normal among champion athletes.
You expect a Jerry Rice to train hard. He's trying to be the best.

shibster
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:41 AM
Serena has 28 titles Tier II or higher and Justine has 27.

ONE is a BIG number. BIGINT.


Since 1999, when Justine began playing WTA Tour events, Serena had a better yearly win-loss record from 1999 to 2003, while Justine's has been better from 2004-2007. Serena still had more "better" years.

i like to compare people who started earlier to people who started later, and then freeze frame and go, ah, so many better years!


Also, Justine has been past the R16 of the US Open twice. TWICE. Serena has won the tournament twice and reached the QF or better five times.

you know, the USO is the only slam in the world.


Serena's best 15 consecutive tournaments were from Paris in '02 to Miami in '04. She compiled a 78-5 record. Better than Justine's best 15 consecutive tournaments, from Paris in '06 to Wimbledon in '07, which was 71-6.

is fifteen just a nice random number to compare by again?

i like selective representation, there is to much intelligence involved, not to mention objectivity.

Ntour
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:56 AM
I have no doubt justine is a better player and has been for a while, but in singles accomplishments serena is still easily ahead, but say if justine were to win Wimby USO and AO in a row she would have 1 more slam than serena and have her own juju slam.

now this is super unlikely to happen as she may not even win wimby this year, but IF it were to happen i am just curious to know whether serena fans would try to argue or would you cencede that justine is better (obivously this is completely hypothetical so i don't need to hear that it will never happen, because i know it probably will not, but i'm curious)

spencercarlos
Jul 6th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I have no doubt justine is a better player and has been for a while, but in singles accomplishments serena is still easily ahead, but say if justine were to win Wimby USO and AO in a row she would have 1 more slam than serena and have her own juju slam.

now this is super unlikely to happen as she may not even win wimby this year, but IF it were to happen i am just curious to know whether serena fans would try to argue or would you cencede that justine is better (obivously this is completely hypothetical so i don't need to hear that it will never happen, because i know it probably will not, but i'm curious)
Until Henin gets even in the grand slam winning list, Serena is still the best. Period.
Also Winning Wimbledon for Henin is much needed.

spencercarlos
Jul 6th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I have no doubt justine is a better player and has been for a while, but in singles accomplishments serena is still easily ahead, but say if justine were to win Wimby USO and AO in a row she would have 1 more slam than serena and have her own juju slam.

now this is super unlikely to happen as she may not even win wimby this year, but IF it were to happen i am just curious to know whether serena fans would try to argue or would you cencede that justine is better (obivously this is completely hypothetical so i don't need to hear that it will never happen, because i know it probably will not, but i'm curious)
Until Henin gets even in the grand slam winning list, Serena is still the best. Period.
Also Winning Wimbledon for Henin is much needed.

VivalaSeles
Jul 6th, 2007, 04:38 AM
Obviously.

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Serena leads Justine 6-5 (1-1 on grass, 1-4 on clay, 4-0 on hard)

Serena has 8 GS titles (2 finals) and a 80% GS final w/l record. Justine has 6 GS titles (4 finals) and a 60% GS final w/l record.

Serena's GS W/L record is: 131-12 (85.6%)
Justine's is: 111-22 (83.4%)

Serena has 30+ wins at 3/4 GS, Justine has 30+ at 1. (If she won Wimbledon 2007, she would be at 29-6. Serena is at 29-6 at the FO)

Serena has 28 tour titles (all Tier II and above). Justine has 31 Tier II + titles.

Serena's W/L record is 346-72 (82.7%), Justine's is 452-102 (81.5%)

Serena's record against Top 10/Slam winners is: 44-19 (69.8%)
Justine's is: 54-27 (66.6%)

Serena's been #1 for 57 consecutive weeks. Justine is currently #1 for 72 total weeks (2/3 times @ #1, not 100% sure).


I don't see how Justine OWNS lots of stats against Serena, but she plays much more than she does, and that shows in her results.

justine also has 2 yearend #1's(looking like 3 too) to serenas 1.

you've helped make my case that who has the better record is debateable.

when alls said and done, it comes down to slams, weeks at #1, yearend #1's, tournaments won, and h2h. currently justine has 3 of those 5. the other 2 are close.

i would also value 3 french open titles more than 3 ao's.

and justines best tennis is yet to come.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 05:07 AM
justine also has 2 yearend #1's(looking like 3 too) to serenas 1.

you've helped make my case that who has the better record is debateable.

when alls said and done, it comes down to slams, weeks at #1, yearend #1's, tournaments won, and h2h. currently justine has 3 of those 5. the other 2 are close.

i would also value 3 french open titles more than 3 ao's.

and justines best tennis is yet to come.

So is Davenport better than Henin, because she had WAY more titles, weeks @ #1, and Y-E #1?

and I'm sure you would value the FO more than the AO. Your fave won it more times :lol: And Justine has 4 not 3 :wavey:

Serena's only 1 slam away from a career DOUBLE slam (3 AO, 1 FO, 2 W, 2 US). Justine would have to win 3 more majors to achieve that.

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 05:34 AM
So is Davenport better than Henin, because she had WAY more titles, weeks @ #1, and Y-E #1?

and I'm sure you would value the FO more than the AO. Your fave won it more times :lol: And Justine has 4 not 3 :wavey:

Serena's only 1 slam away from a career DOUBLE slam (3 AO, 1 FO, 2 W, 2 US). Justine would have to win 3 more majors to achieve that.

justines career is not over yet, lindsays is. henin has many more slams, has h2h, and will have 3 ye #1's soon.

i never said justine only had 3 fo's, i just implied that justine seem to excel at the ao, serena at the ao. most agree the fo is the most difficult to win.

DOUBLEFIST
Jul 6th, 2007, 05:40 AM
I have no doubt justine is a better player and has been for a while, but in singles accomplishments serena is still easily ahead, but say if justine were to win Wimby USO and AO in a row she would have 1 more slam than serena and have her own juju slam.

now this is super unlikely to happen as she may not even win wimby this year, but IF it were to happen i am just curious to know whether serena fans would try to argue or would you cencede that justine is better (obivously this is completely hypothetical so i don't need to hear that it will never happen, because i know it probably will not, but i'm curious)

I think in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY chance that your senario were to play out any reasonable person would have to concede Justine as superior career wise. She'd have nine total plus a JujuSlam, but if that were to happen I would personally fly to where ever you are and pay you $100.00.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 05:46 AM
justines career is not over yet, lindsays is. henin has many more slams, has h2h, and will have 3 ye #1's soon.

i never said justine only had 3 fo's, i just implied that justine seem to excel at the ao, serena at the ao. most agree the fo is the most difficult to win.

:confused: :scratch:

And the FO has more fluke SF than the other 4 majors :lol:

and Serena's career is not over either :lol:

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:12 AM
:confused: :scratch:

And the FO has more fluke SF than the other 4 majors :lol:

and Serena's career is not over either :lol:

if both careers ended today, i may give serena the nod, but if i were a serena fan i wouldn't like the trend.

Marcj
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:12 AM
Of course, Henin is far behind and would never catch up with Serena!

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:18 AM
if both careers ended today, i may give serena the nod, but if i were a serena fan i wouldn't like the trend.

Justine's won 2 straight slams, and that was in 2003/4. The next closest she got was 2006 when she won a slam and got to a final. She would really need to win 4 in row to surpass Serena.

Only 5 women in TENNIS history have on 4 in a row. She doesn't even have all 4 (yet). So I'm not concerned with any "trend" :wavey:

Drake1980
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:21 AM
AND she BLACK and that's even better.

:confused::help:

Marcj
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:22 AM
Of course Serena is the best , Henin is far behind ,i never take her as someone.
Without injury S will defnitely sweep Henin away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

goldenslam888
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:43 AM
Justine's won 2 straight slams, and that was in 2003/4. The next closest she got was 2006 when she won a slam and got to a final. She would really need to win 4 in row to surpass Serena.

Only 5 women in TENNIS history have on 4 in a row. She doesn't even have all 4 (yet). So I'm not concerned with any "trend" :wavey:

and if justine wins wimbledon and captures the career "golden slam?" how many have done that?

:lol: peace out

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:47 AM
well the Olympics haven't been a part of tennis for as long as the majors, and Serena's never played singles at the Olympics yet, so....:p

Peace Out :lol:

treufreund
Jul 6th, 2007, 06:52 AM
It's so evident that two successive losses in majors has got Serena fans feeling the need to URGENTLY ARGUE that serena is the best. A nerve has been hit perhaps?

bandabou
Jul 6th, 2007, 07:41 AM
justine also has 2 yearend #1's(looking like 3 too) to serenas 1.

you've helped make my case that who has the better record is debateable.

when alls said and done, it comes down to slams, weeks at #1, yearend #1's, tournaments won, and h2h. currently justine has 3 of those 5. the other 2 are close.

i would also value 3 french open titles more than 3 ao's.

and justines best tennis is yet to come.


Gap is closing..:scared: What you gonna do about it Serena?

But why would RG over the Oz?? Hmmm..let me guess. Justine has won more of those.

MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 07:52 AM
Not urgently :lol:

Since the 'Serena Slam', Serena's been the best of the generation. And that was when she had as many as Hingis. :shrug: And Venus beat Serena twice in a row (in straight sets), but Serena was still the best of the generation. :shrug:

I just think that Justine has 2 more matches to win this week before week before we even THINK about bringing them up in the same conversation.

I definitely that she's the most consistent, but Serena's provided some of the most devastating tennis of this generation. Justine hasn't even won 3 slams in a year, much less 3 in a row, much less 4 in a row, so I mean I don't see her as the best player, despite her AMAZING consistency.

Right now, Serena's #1 of the generation, and Justine's a SOLID #2. But what about the possibility of Venus winning #6 this Saturday? :shrug: Would that make her #2 again?