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View Full Version : Are Venus and Martina stubborn or stupid about their serves?


Morrissey
Jun 30th, 2007, 07:55 PM
I am starting to wonder if Venus Williams and Martina Hingis are either too stubborn or if both women are just plain stupid? I mean, everyone knows to attack her forehand and her second serve. Same thing with Hingis.

People make ten million excuses its a disgrace that Martina lost to journeywoman Laura Granville. No offense to Granville but Hingis was the one that should of rolled in that match easily.

The confidence with the serve has been the achilles Heel for both Venus and Martina they are both on their way out of the door.

Its obvious women's tennis is in transition the young teens are coming up strong. Serena and Justine still seem to me to be ahead of the pack as proven by both capturing the first two grand slams this year.

However, Mauresmo is the only other hold over from the old generation that may still make a mark.

Lindsay is retired so is Jennifer Capriati and Monica Seles. Kim Clijsters also quit due to burnout and lack of desire.

Venus and Martina are the only other women from the old
generation that are still here. Yet they are just about out the door.


The serve is the one shot a tennis player can control. It seems to me Venus Williams and Martina Hingis are both in the same both. Two former great champions too stubborn and too immature to let go of mommy and daddy. Venus is 27 years old and Martina is 26 they are not children they are at the twilight of their careers.

Yet both are so lazy they refuse to work on their serves.
Say what you want about Justine Henin but Justine WANTS IT. She wants to get better and better. Justine has modified her serve TWICE. It can be done. Justine GOES for the second serve. Martina Hingis and Venus Williams do NOT GO for the second serve. I don't get it? Just hit the damn second serve HARDER. Justine goes for it, win or lose she goes for her shots.

People seem to think its 2005 when Venus pulled out the Wimbledon victory. I really felt Venus really went downhill when she lost to Clijsters at the US OPEN up a set and a break only to fall 4-6 7-5 6-1. I knew at that moment she wasn't going to comeback. The Venus of old would of destroyed Clijsters but this imposter Venus is the one that cannot seem to close out matches.

Again today Venus is up 6-2 but down 1-4 to Akiko Morigami. Sorry, Morigami is a decent player obviously she beat Petrova at the French Open but I still believe she is a player Venus Williams should be beating easily.

I cannot believe Venus still tries to ack confident in press conferences she is fooling nobody. A new order is needed for both Venus and Martina its time for both to grow up and fire their parents as their coaches. They only have a few years left. Why don't they make the best of it?

I just cannot believe Venus and Martina will be content with the occasional grand slam quarterfinal result or winning minor events. They want slams but it seems to me they refuse to make the dedication Serena and Justine have made to becoming better players.

Where is Venus serve coach? Where is Martina's serve coach? People say Venus and Martina are intelligent. Why don't they prove it? Serving a bunch of double faults is unacceptable at this level.

junlee_vee
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:00 PM
:yawn:

Slutiana
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:01 PM
so venus and hingis are from a different generation than serena? :help::o

LeonHart
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Martina has worked on her serve. She's actually #6 on the ace list for the tournament :)

Reuchlin
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:22 PM
This Board Attracts The Biggest Idiots In The World. I'm Talking About You Thread Starter-- Although I See Others Are Giving You A Run For Your Money.

It's Not Easy To Fix A Flaw In Ones Technique. I Am Certain That Venus And Martina Know Exactly What They Are Doing Wrong And Have Tried Working On The Problem For Years Now.

Sometimes Its Not That Simple. Old Habits Die Hard, Some Never Die. Some Players, Like Justine, Have The Gift Of Being Able To Change Their Technique Often, Others Cant. If It Were That Easy Than All The Women In The Top 500 Would Be Serving Like Pete Sampras

Venus Is 27 And Martina 26, The Last Thing They Should Be Doing Is Changing Their Technique.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, People On This Board Are Getting Dumber By The Second Ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Pureracket
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:26 PM
This Board Attracts The Biggest Idiots In The World. I'm Talking About You Thread Starter-- Although I See Others Are Giving You A Run For Your Money.

It's Not Easy To Fix A Flaw In Ones Technique. I Am Certain That Venus And Martina Know Exactly What They Are Doing Wrong And Have Tried Working On The Problem For Years Now.

Sometimes Its Not That Simple. Old Habits Die Hard, Some Never Die. Some Players, Like Justine, Have The Gift Of Being Able To Change Their Technique Often, Others Cant. If It Were That Easy Than All The Women In The Top 500 Would Be Serving Like Pete Sampras

Venus Is 27 And Martina 26, The Last Thing They Should Be Doing Is Changing Their Technique.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, People On This Board Are Getting Dumber By The Second Ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Nah, bud, your "chill pill" thread pretty much made you the laughing stock of the board. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Poova
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:27 PM
Are you obsessed with Venus or something? :help:

Pureracket
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Morrisy,
I can kinda relate to what you're saying. I often wonder how Serena developed such a nasty kick on her serve where Vee simply spins hers in @ a slower rate than the first one. That said, I'm sure whoever taught Serena the kick was teaching Vee as well. Venus' own lack of confidence on her second serve may be the culprit.

As far as Hingis is concerned, her serve simply hasn't eveolved. Power isn't necessarily something she's going to be able to add onto her serve now, but she does need to add more depth and spin. Her placement is also not as good as it used to be.

edificio
Jun 30th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Hmmm. Equating Venus' serve with Martina's. A nonstarter, I'd say.

PLP
Jun 30th, 2007, 09:10 PM
You are talking about my 2 faves, but I think you make some valid points, especially with Venus. Her 1st serve is so huge, her 2nd serve is sometimes shockingly bad. Martina's though is much more consistent and sometimes looks better than in her previous career. I am not sure that she can add much more power, Venus though, with her height, NO excuses.

CORIA01
Jun 30th, 2007, 09:39 PM
Difficult to make your weaknesses becoming strength
Martina is injured
Venus is playing quit well (Morigami is on fire)I SAW THE MATCH

Gallofa
Jun 30th, 2007, 10:45 PM
I have noticed many top women when asked about their next round opponent say "I don't know her. Never heard of her. I am going to focus on my game". Which is, clearly, an attitude that highlights the distance in terms of strategy between men's and women's tennis. You actually see male players that have strategies, that think about how to beat specific opponents. Feed Federer high balls to his backhand. Serve wide out to Nadal, etc. This is hardly the case in women's tennis. You don't see many women changing things about their games. What they do well, they keep at. What they do badly, they keep at. There are obviously exceptions, people that have improved parts of their games substantially or that come to the matches with an strategy, but most of them, they just seem not to be great tacticians.

Europe rocks
Jun 30th, 2007, 10:49 PM
The thing that shocked me most was that Venus was 27 :eek:

Craigy
Jun 30th, 2007, 11:00 PM
This Board Attracts The Biggest Idiots In The World. I'm Talking About You Thread Starter-- Although I See Others Are Giving You A Run For Your Money.

It's Not Easy To Fix A Flaw In Ones Technique. I Am Certain That Venus And Martina Know Exactly What They Are Doing Wrong And Have Tried Working On The Problem For Years Now.

Sometimes Its Not That Simple. Old Habits Die Hard, Some Never Die. Some Players, Like Justine, Have The Gift Of Being Able To Change Their Technique Often, Others Cant. If It Were That Easy Than All The Women In The Top 500 Would Be Serving Like Pete Sampras

Venus Is 27 And Martina 26, The Last Thing They Should Be Doing Is Changing Their Technique.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, People On This Board Are Getting Dumber By The Second Ggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Ohhh Take a chill pill! :haha:

PLP
Jun 30th, 2007, 11:14 PM
anyone else noticing how parallel their careers are at this point?
Venus has more in common with Hingis career wise now than she does with Serena. While Serena and Henin seem to be the new dominant pair on tour.

Yes and it is a bit depressing. Still, I will always have hope that they can both rebound and win some more titles before they are through.

Donny
Jun 30th, 2007, 11:42 PM
Interesting how Martina, "the most talented player in the WTA", never learned to hot a decent serve.

harloo
Jul 1st, 2007, 12:28 AM
I was thinking about how Martina and Venus were kind of in the same place in regards to tennis. It seems both great champions are too bull headed to take their game to the next level. I remember Tracy Austin stating that it's extremely hard to change your game when you've been playing one style since childhood.

However, I really don't think it's impossible. Remember when Justine changed her serve the first time and kept losing matches because the tweak wasn't working out quite well? She didn't give up and kept practicing that technique during matches and it produced better results for her.

I would like to see Venus and Martina try something different. Maybe get a new coach or work with someone with knowledge of the game. For some reason I feel both of these ladies would greatly benefit from the change and maybe even win a few slams in the process.:)

lecciones
Jul 1st, 2007, 01:59 AM
Stubborn but definitely not stupid.

SV_Fan
Jul 1st, 2007, 02:18 AM
Venus in my opinion is not stubborn about her serves she know it's one of her weapons veryone knows that. She needs to go back to the Venus 2005-past where she clicked a button and she aced. Martina I can't say. Watching the match on NBC the man said she is mixing it up alot in her strokes and serves taking pace off etc.

SV_Fan
Jul 1st, 2007, 02:30 AM
Stubborn but definitely not stupid.

VENUS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Larrybidd
Jul 1st, 2007, 07:35 AM
Venus' 2nd serve comes and goes. Just like her forehand. If you would remember before the 2005 Wimby victory her serve was terrible, but suddenly during the championships it was quite good (its never been to the level of her sister, but few are). Its kind of hard to fault the coaching of her 2nd ball since the same coaches handle Serena, who has one of the greatest 2nd balls in tennis. Logic suggests the problem is operator error.

Venus is just plain streaky. Theres a great player in there, but you never know when she's gonna come out for a visit. But this ain't news. Venus and Martina are both set in their ways or stubborn, however you wish to look at it. But most great players are. When you have had as much success as they have its quite easy to say change is good. In practice, you rely on what you know worked in the past, when stressed.

The big difference between Venus and Hingis is, Venus has a good enough 2nd serve, her problem is finding it and keeping it on a consistent basis. Hingis always used her serve primarily just to get the point started. Thats not good enough anymore. Hingis needs new tricks. Venus justs needs to get the old tricks working like they used to.

Calypso
Jul 1st, 2007, 08:27 AM
Its tough to re-tool your game at this stage of a tennis career.
Some people are able to improve on their weaknesses better than others?
And they'd never fire their parents as coaches, so forget about it.

Sammy 4 eva!!!
Jul 1st, 2007, 08:37 AM
Its tough to re-tool your game at this stage of a tennis career.
Some people are able to improve on their weaknesses better than others?
And they'd never fire their parents as coaches, so forget about it.

Agreed :cool:

rhz
Jul 1st, 2007, 12:09 PM
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070528/capt.xrg13005281419.france_french_open_tennis_xrg1 30.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070528/capt.xrg13305281427.france_french_open_tennis_xrg1 33.jpg

Maybe I should remind everyone again! The reason Venus's 2nd serve is so bad is because she sings Beyonce's song " To the left, to the left.. Everybody tilt your serve to the left"

Freewoman33
Jul 1st, 2007, 12:19 PM
Very good question. I often wonder that myself and for the life of me, cannot understand Venus Williams who I love dearly.

Larrybidd
Jul 1st, 2007, 05:03 PM
Very good question. I often wonder that myself and for the life of me, cannot understand Venus Williams who I love dearly.

Whats not to understand about Venus? She's comfortable and happy with her coaching situation. Those coaches enjoy her trust and love, AND have helped her have more tennis success than 99% of girls that have ever played professional tennis. When she puts her game together, as in 2005 Wimby, she can play memorably great tennis. I understand her perfectly, and can't say I'd do anything differently. But even if I would do things differently than Venus, I'm adult enough to know that she will do what makes her the most happy and comfortable. And as a real fan of hers, I'm very cool with that.

Slutiana
Jul 1st, 2007, 05:09 PM
Venus' 2nd serve comes and goes. Just like her forehand. If you would remember before the 2005 Wimby victory her serve was terrible, but suddenly during the championships it was quite good (its never been to the level of her sister, but few are). Its kind of hard to fault the coaching of her 2nd ball since the same coaches handle Serena, who has one of the greatest 2nd balls in tennis. Logic suggests the problem is operator error.

Venus is just plain streaky. Theres a great player in there, but you never know when she's gonna come out for a visit. But this ain't news. Venus and Martina are both set in their ways or stubborn, however you wish to look at it. But most great players are. When you have had as much success as they have its quite easy to say change is good. In practice, you rely on what you know worked in the past, when stressed.

The big difference between Venus and Hingis is, Venus has a good enough 2nd serve, her problem is finding it and keeping it on a consistent basis. Hingis always used her serve primarily just to get the point started. Thats not good enough anymore. Hingis needs new tricks. Venus justs needs to get the old tricks working like they used to.

agreed.

blamoh
Jul 1st, 2007, 05:51 PM
When Venus and Martina were in their prime and winning almost every tournament, nothing was noticed. They were just good and nothing wrong with
their games. But now they are getting old, not winning the big matches,
suddenly, the serve is not good, the movement is not good, they are doing
this and that to improve. One thing many people failed to realize is nothing
can be forever. One thing many people failed to realize is Venus and Martina are giving way to the new breed of tennis players. Desire is there
but the command on the game is lost.

hingis44
Jul 1st, 2007, 06:29 PM
I Thought that Martina took Brad Gilbert as trainer? It has Wimbledon with Martina?

Morrissey
Jul 2nd, 2007, 02:39 AM
I disagree I think Venus and Martina are just plain lazy. Justine Henin has a HUNGER to be a champion she wants to WIN and WIN BADLY. Justine has modified her serve TWICE. Yet Venus with her technically crappy serve is just going downhill with Hingis. They are lazy and they don't want to work hard to IMPROVE.Justine is also SMART she realized to get to the top and stay there she has to be in amazing shape. Justine is incredible she is 5 foot 5 she is one of the smallest women on tour yet she beats the taller players consistently. And the reason why is she has maximized her potential. Venus and Martina are 26 and 27 years old they are lazy and they don't want to work on their SERVES. And no its pathetic that they don't want to WORK HARDER. Serena and Henin WORKED HARD and that's why they are on top and Martina and Venus are on their way OUT.

servenrichie
Jul 2nd, 2007, 07:01 AM
Venus and Martina could only be compared in that they are not winning much any longer. That is where the comparison ends.
Where Venus can be seen as a contender in slams, Martina cant be seen as one. Martina simply lacks the power to contend these days.
Venus can still contend, the key is cutting her unforced errors down.
Henin changed her serve, when she wasnt the number 1 player she is today. At that time, she was a darkhorse, but never a serious contender. I doubt she would make such drastic changes in her game today, because she would simply land outside the top 50/100.
Going by that, it is mentally difficult to get Venus or Martina to drastically change their game, afterall, that game brought them 5 grandslams and more. It is not about lazyiness, they are practicising like mad and it cant be candy getting your assed whipped on regular basis by some journeywomen und players they use to have for breakfast.

DOUBLEFIST
Jul 2nd, 2007, 09:21 AM
Nah, bud, your "chill pill" thread pretty much made you the laughing stock of the board. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you see his "When will people learn proper grammer(sic)" thread? That one's right up there.

blamoh
Jul 2nd, 2007, 10:41 AM
I disagree I think Venus and Martina are just plain lazy. Justine Henin has a HUNGER to be a champion she wants to WIN and WIN BADLY. Justine has modified her serve TWICE. Yet Venus with her technically crappy serve is just going downhill with Hingis. They are lazy and they don't want to work hard to IMPROVE.Justine is also SMART she realized to get to the top and stay there she has to be in amazing shape. Justine is incredible she is 5 foot 5 she is one of the smallest women on tour yet she beats the taller players consistently. And the reason why is she has maximized her potential. Venus and Martina are 26 and 27 years old they are lazy and they don't want to work on their SERVES. And no its pathetic that they don't want to WORK HARDER. Serena and Henin WORKED HARD and that's why they are on top and Martina and Venus are on their way OUT.
Look who is talking. A British person talking about
tennis. It has been 30 years ago since a British won
wimbledon. Do you care?

lecciones
Jul 2nd, 2007, 10:52 AM
I disagree I think Venus and Martina are just plain lazy. Justine Henin has a HUNGER to be a champion she wants to WIN and WIN BADLY. Justine has modified her serve TWICE. Yet Venus with her technically crappy serve is just going downhill with Hingis. They are lazy and they don't want to work hard to IMPROVE.Justine is also SMART she realized to get to the top and stay there she has to be in amazing shape. Justine is incredible she is 5 foot 5 she is one of the smallest women on tour yet she beats the taller players consistently. And the reason why is she has maximized her potential. Venus and Martina are 26 and 27 years old they are lazy and they don't want to work on their SERVES. And no its pathetic that they don't want to WORK HARDER. Serena and Henin WORKED HARD and that's why they are on top and Martina and Venus are on their way OUT.


I mostly agree, except for the last sentence. It could be that Martina has done everything there is in women's tennis save the career grandslam (french open title left) that keeps her from being fully motivated. She has won all major singles and doubles tournies (except french singles and berlin doubles) and just misses the french, US and wimbledon mixed. She has reached no.1 simultaneously in singles and doubles, has done everything, so I guess its motivation, she only gets motivated for the French and its obviously not enough motivation for her to do what Henin has done for herself, in order for her to be what we want her to be...
I just hope she knows she isn't getting any younger.

Maybe if she sticks around for two more years she'd think of entering doubles grandslams and adding more to her grandslam lists just so that she can add more :)

Jasmin
Jul 2nd, 2007, 12:04 PM
Poor Venus..she's my favorite but I've stopped pinning my hopes on her to win tournaments. Like Serena she needs another perspective from another coach. Maybe that will help...who knows. She still has the weapons but right now she's just too inconsistent.

Hingis imo just doesn't have all the weapons but she loves tennis so that's all that will have to matter.

Time waits for no one.