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View Full Version : Is it me or has the prejudice already started in the Va. Tech story?


Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:22 PM
I'm reading stuff about this student and many articles talk about him as if he 'just got off the boat' but hasn't he been in the US since he was 8? I thought I read that. Didn't he graduate from an American high school? So why are they all referring to him as a South Korean born student like South Korea had anything to do with this story? I can already see the racist idiots turning this debate into something about international students and immigration as opposed to discussing the lack of of access to MENTAL HEALTH help. The stigma associated with receiving mental health help and the fact that there is a war on the mentally ill in this country. :banghead:

LoveFifteen
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:27 PM
I agree. The impression the media gave me all day was that he was some "resident alien" who'd been here since August 2006. The reality is that he's an immigrant who's been here since he was 8. It's pretty misleading.

samsung101
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:34 PM
What are you talking about?

Racist?

The early reports yesterday were that he was Chinese or an
illegal alien, or a resident with legal status. They finally got it
right today.


Access to mental health?

It's free to most students on college campuses.

In fact, it's free to anyone in the USA, if you ask for it.
May not be at a fancy office, but, it's available to anyone
who wants it.

They're pointing it out because the university had signs there
was trouble with the young man.

Who said he was mentally ill?
He went to a counselor upon the request of the dept. he was in.
Good. Too bad not more came of it. But, how much can they do
w/o an action anyway.




The news is trying to give information.

The news media is bending over backwards not to do anything
imflammatory about this guy. As always, the criminal seems to
get the white glove treatment in our need to be PC.

His legal status is important.
Citizen or not?
Motivation?

Crimes by Asians, American or foreign born, is rare.
That's a fact. So, it is a major part of the story, as
it should be.

That's not racism, it's news.

samsung101
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:35 PM
I'm sorry, if a man in France, one of the infamous 'youths' that burn
cars, attack women in buses, rampage on a nightly basis....actually
killed a few people - would they not mention if he was a citizen of
France or a green card citizen of France?


I think they would.

They'd call him a youth with a green card.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Samsung, don't speak on issues you know nothing about. If you did you would know that most of the government supported mental health facilities have been closed down and turned over to private companies and if you think they offer free counseling I have some swamp land to sell you. :rolleyes:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I'm sorry, if a man in France, one of the infamous 'youths' that burn
cars, attack women in buses, rampage on a nightly basis....actually
killed a few people - would they not mention if he was a citizen of
France or a green card citizen of France?


I think they would.

They'd call him a youth with a green card.

What does France have to do with anything? Please stay on topic or start another one of your ten million threads. :rolleyes:

darrinbaker00
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:39 PM
Samsung, don't speak on issues you know nothing about. If you did you would know that most of the government supported mental health facilities have been closed down and turned over to private companies and if you think they offer free counseling I have some swamp land to sell you. :rolleyes:
If she stopped posting on issues she knew nothing about, she'd stop posting, period. ;)

Sally Struthers
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:39 PM
If she stopped posting on issues she knew nothing about, she'd stop posting, period. ;)

is samsung a she? :eek: learn something new every day :lol:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:41 PM
I agree. The impression the media gave me all day was that he was some "resident alien" who'd been here since August 2006. The reality is that he's an immigrant who's been here since he was 8. It's pretty misleading.

I know, that's what I thought when I was reading several stories. That he was an international student who hadn't even been in the country for a year. Please I moved to NC when I was 8 and if I killed someone that would be like the paper referring to me as a NYC native eventhough I've been in the south my entire life..It's very disingeneous. :fiery:

Apoleb
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:42 PM
If she stopped posting on issues she knew nothing about, she'd stop posting, period. ;)

:lol:

It has already started, unfortunately. And it's no surpise that an idiot like Samsung is already backpeddling from its xenophobic comments in the thread about gun control. I'm not opposed to saying his nationality but it surely has been given too much weight than it deserves. The guy is mentally ill, and that's all it matters. I just find it shocking that people can find something, anything, to lift the blame rather than face the more pressing issues.

The guy has shown psychotic tendencies from before. And likely, not much was done about it.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:43 PM
If she stopped posting on issues she knew nothing about, she'd stop posting, period. ;)

from your fingertips to God's ears. :angel:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:46 PM
:lol:

It has already started, unfortunately. And it's no surpise that an idiot like Samsung is already backpeddling from its xenophobic comments in the thread about gun control. I'm not opposed to saying his nationality but it surely has been given too much weight than it deserves. The guy is mentally ill, and that's all it matters. I just find it shocking that people can find something, anything, to lift the blame rather than face the more pressing issues.

The guy has shown psychotic tendencies from before. And likely, not much was done about it.

The fact that he doesn't have citizenship (which is probably because his parents never pursued it) has soooo little to do with what happened that if it is mentioned it should be mentioned as generic fact like his height.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:56 PM
I do have to say that there is a stigma towards mental health help in colleges and universities.

I remember when I lived on campus at St. John's in Queens that there was this girl who if anything might have been a little too ghetto.

Well, her roommates didn't like that so they reported her.

So she was advised to go to get some counseling on campus.
When she got there, someone gave her a sedative and she was taken to NY Hospital Medical Center in Queens in what appeared to be a pysch ward.

She was not allowed back on campus and she was told she can take her finals a week after everyone else.
I really hope she sued the school because her was way out of line.

So yes I can understand why someone wouldn't want to use the mental health on campus and if they do why it would be only a one time deal.

Paneru
Apr 17th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I agree. The impression the media gave me all day was that he was some "resident alien" who'd been here since August 2006. The reality is that he's an immigrant who's been here since he was 8. It's pretty misleading.

Same thing here.

ITA.

timafi
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:17 PM
I'm sorry, if a man in France, one of the infamous 'youths' that burn
cars, attack women in buses, rampage on a nightly basis....actually
killed a few people - would they not mention if he was a citizen of
France or a green card citizen of France?


I think they would.

They'd call him a youth with a green card.

you have an obsession with France don't ya?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:24 PM
is samsung a she? :eek: learn something new every day :lol:

Either a she or gay...as I read after christmas that her/his husband gave her/him perfume for xmas...:tape:

She comes hard like a dude...thats one tough talking republican far right broad...:lol:

rockwithme
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:24 PM
my god, what a horrible tragedy..much condolences goes out to the victims, survivors and their loved ones.

back on topic: didnt foresee that this would be such a dividing racial issue in the US :eek:
is that the focal spin the major media outlets are feeding off....that this south korean fob who has been in the country for hardly a year has taken 33 human lives? or is it public opinion?

griffin
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:26 PM
you have an obsession with France don't ya?:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:

If I were France, I'd take it as a compliment.

If it starts to LIKE France, then I'd worry ;)

I've kept a bit of a distance from much of the coverage. I've found that it doesn't help MY mental health to "marinate" in news coverage of tragic events.

But if the talking heads or the online rabble start going on about the shooter's nationality or ethnicity, one would think it would be easy enough to shut them up by pointing out that the vast and overwhelming majority of crimes like this (school or workplace massacres) have been committed by white, American-born males.

Lord Nelson
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I'm reading stuff about this student and many articles talk about him as if he 'just got off the boat' but hasn't he been in the US since he was 8? I thought I read that. Didn't he graduate from an American high school? So why are they all referring to him as a South Korean born student like South Korea had anything to do with this story? I can already see the racist idiots turning this debate into something about international students and immigration as opposed to discussing the lack of of access to MENTAL HEALTH help. The stigma associated with receiving mental health help and the fact that there is a war on the mentally ill in this country. :banghead:

It is just you, there is no prejudice involved just your paranoia. The chap is a south korean since he has no U.S. citizenship. I lived in the U.S. for a while and I certainly do not consider myself American. I was born and brought up in Switzerland but aonly consider myself Swiss after if I got the citizenship.

timafi
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM
But if the talking heads or the online rabble start going on about the shooter's nationality or ethnicity, one would think it would be easy enough to shut them up by pointing out that the vast and overwhelming majority of crimes like this (school or workplace massacres) have been committed by white, American-born males.

thank you Griff:worship: :worship: :worship:

samsung101
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM
Once again, the tolerant, diversified, progressive left.

Disagree, and you are the target.

Sorry, I don't think racism is the aim of the media in this
news story and massacre. Sorry, not everyone agrees with
your linear view of the world.

CondiLicious
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:32 PM
The media will concentrate on his race because then it takes some of the attention away from the fact that there needs to be tighter gun control laws in the US. And as soon as I heard yesterday that this guy was of Asian heritage I knew that the stories that various news agencies were airing about gun control laws would diminish somewhat and the main talking point would be his background and heritage.

Infiniti2001
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Rocketta, I understand where you're coming from--- but I don't blame the media for calling him South Korean. Although he was in the US legally , he is still South Korean , since he never took the US citizenship oath. If it were Anna or Maria in his shoes they'd refer to them as Russian for the same reason given above :shrug:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:35 PM
It is just you, there is no prejudice involved just your paranoia. The chap is a south korean since he has no U.S. citizenship. I lived in the U.S. for a while and I certainly do not consider myself American. I was born and brought up in Switzerland but aonly consider myself Swiss after if I got the citizenship.

I must of missed when you moved back to the United States before this event? :scratch:


People who are actually here in the US....please give your opinions.....people who live in the US only in their heads......please keep your opinions to yourself....Thanks! :wavey:

Lord Nelson
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:39 PM
I must of missed when you moved back to the United States before this event? :scratch:


People who are actually here in the US....please give your opinions.....people who live in the US only in their heads......please keep your opinions to yourself....Thanks! :wavey:
No need to be so polite. Don't be so shy miss. :lol:
By the way what makes you think I never lived in the U.S.?

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Rocketta, I understand where you're coming from--- but I don't blame the media for calling him South Korean. Although he was in the US legally , he is still South Korean , since he never took the US citizenship oath. If it were Anna or Maria in his shoes they'd refer to them as Russian for the same reason given above :shrug:

but there's no reason to talk about his citizenship at all. It plays no part in this tragedy. He's also a Virginian and a <insert his high school mascot>. They could just as easily used his high school to define him, or the area he's lived in most of his life in but they choose to start his description as South Korean born.

and no if it was Maria I do not think they would do that. I do not think they would start stories or descriptions of her as Russian born Maria Sharapova. Will they mention it somewhere in the article sure as they should but I don't think it would be the lead descripter for her. I think they should mention that he came here at 8 but by mentioning his Visa date they are definitely trying to give the impression of a foreign national who is just here to study, and that is not accurate, imo.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:44 PM
No need to be so polite. Don't be so shy miss. :lol:
By the way what makes you think I never lived in the U.S.?

I didn't say I didn't think you ever lived in the US, I said I wasn't aware that you moved back to the US to be able to speak on what the media is or isn't doing.

alfonsojose
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:47 PM
is samsung a she? :eek: learn something new every day :lol:

:eek: Ann Coulter. I knew it :mad:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:48 PM
I would rather the media try to make this into a freak accident by a person who was not American born instead of warning people to watch out for any Asian on campus that is a loner.

roarke
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:52 PM
Rocketta, I understand where you're coming from--- but I don't blame the media for calling him South Korean. Although he was in the US legally , he is still South Korean , since he never took the US citizenship oath. If it were Anna or Maria in his shoes they'd refer to them as Russian for the same reason given above :shrug:

If only.... there would be very little difference with what they are saying now and what the media would have said if he had taken obtain America citizenship. They probably would have said Korean born student who only gained American citizenship on such and such date........

His heritage would be a definite waving in the media. In fact I am sure the neo-conservative pundits are foaming at the mouth over immigration reform.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:53 PM
I would rather the media try to make this into a freak accident by a person who was not American born instead of warning people to watch out for any Asian on campus that is a loner.

are those the only two options? :scratch:

Can't they make it into a tragic event perpetrated by a mentally ill person in a country that doesn't take care of their mentally ill? Couldn't they make it out to be to watch out for 'loners' period? Why would they have to make it about him being Asian?

They will of course mention the words Asian & Korea everytime he's talked about as opposed to just mentioning his name and the fact that he was a student. If he was targeting only non-asians, or white people or black people then I can see why it would be an important fact.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.

alfonsojose
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Poor asian nerds :scared:

alfonsojose
Apr 17th, 2007, 07:59 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.

:yeah:

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:01 PM
why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for?

Isn't that crazy or at least disturbed? :confused:

cellophane
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:02 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.


Well, if that were the case, why would he massacre a bunch of innocent people and not just kill himself?

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:02 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.


Should I call your school and neighbors and warn them about you? :scared:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:03 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.

ah, have you read some of the stuff he did before he went ballistic? He showed many many many many signs of being mentally disturbed. His writings were so freaky that his creative writing teacher recommended that he go to counseling.

My question to you is, What is so bad by calling him crazy or mentally ill? Calling someone mentally ill is not the same as calling someone insane. Plenty of people are mentally ill and go to work and class everyday. :shrug:

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Should I call your school and neighbors and warn them about you? :scared:


Uh no. I'm just saying labeling him as "crazy" excuses society as a whole from talking about the issues that creates situations where people feel this is their only option.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:07 PM
are those the only two options? :scratch:

Can't they make it into a tragic event perpetrated by a mentally ill person in a country that doesn't take care of their mentally ill? Couldn't they make it out to be to watch out for 'loners' period? Why would they have to make it about him being Asian?

They will of course mention the words Asian & Korea everytime he's talked about as opposed to just mentioning his name and the fact that he was a student. If he was targeting only non-asians, or white people or black people then I can see why it would be an important fact.

Yea. That's not a good idea.
The internet, cell phones, PDA, etc. has the ability to bring many people together but at same time it tears up a social fabric that no medium has done before the electronic age thus we all in some degree now have loner tendencies.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:07 PM
ah, have you read some of the stuff he did before he went ballistic? He showed many many many many signs of being mentally disturbed. His writings were so freaky that his creative writing teacher recommended that he go to counseling.

My question to you is, What is so bad by calling him crazy or mentally ill? Calling someone mentally ill is not the same as calling someone insane. Plenty of people are mentally ill and go to work and class everyday. :shrug:


There isn't anything wrong with being mentally ill, it's just in cases like these, whether in the end it was a correct call or not, we tend to label these people as crazy as if they are so different from all of us and they acted in a vaccuum. I'm all for personal responsibility, but at the same time there are many social factors that not only make people feel this is the right or only way to respond, but that also allow that decision to be played out.

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:07 PM
We just talked about this in my Men, Masculinity, and Society class and my question keeps being why does he have to be crazy? Why he couldn't he be a normal everyday person like you and me, who got fed up with life and decided he didn't have anything worth living for? I think automatically labeling him as someone "crazy" or disturbed, misses the possibility that he was that way because of what was going on around him.

You're right, I think there is a definite stigma attached to metal illness, and it's unfortunate. BUT, I think it is okay to label someone as mentally ill in this case, as "a normal everyday person like you and me" should know better than to open fire on innocent people just because they are "fed up with life".

Joana
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Can't they make it into a tragic event perpetrated by a mentally ill person in a country that doesn't take care of their mentally ill? Couldn't they make it out to be to watch out for 'loners' period?


Do you really think there's a need for a witch hunt? :confused: You know what those "watch outs" can turn into.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:09 PM
Well, if that were the case, why would he massacre a bunch of innocent people and not just kill himself?

Because we don't live in a vacuum. Most people don't internalize their failures and blame themselves (especially men, they aren't socialized to see themselves as the reason for failure) they look to outside forces (real or imagine) for why their life is in shams.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:12 PM
You're right, I think there is a definite stigma attached to metal illness, and it's unfortunate. BUT, I think it is okay to label someone as mentally ill in this case, as "a normal everyday person like you and me" should know better than to open fire on innocent people just because they are "fed up with life".


I 100% believe that this guy knew it was "wrong" but my point is it's worth looking at what made him murder 30 some odd people despite "knowing it was wrong" instead of just labeling him crazy right off the bat.

Apoleb
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:13 PM
Actually I think even if he came fresh to the US from South Korea, I don't think it's relevant.

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:14 PM
There isn't anything wrong with being mentally ill, it's just in cases like these, whether in the end it was a correct call or not, we tend to label these people as crazy as if they are so different from all of us and they acted in a vaccuum. I'm all for personal responsibility, but at the same time there are many social factors that not only make people feel this is the right or only way to respond, but that also allow that decision to be played out.

The people like this shooter (I don't know his name, if it has even been released) ARE different from most people. Most perople wouldn't think of doing such a horrendous thing (THANK GOD!).

Yes, there are other factors that go into the situation, but society does not teach people to open fire in a school setting. Society does not teach us to kill others because we are having a bad day.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:14 PM
There isn't anything wrong with being mentally ill, it's just in cases like these, whether in the end it was a correct call or not, we tend to label these people as crazy as if they are so different from all of us and they acted in a vaccuum. I'm all for personal responsibility, but at the same time there are many social factors that not only make people feel this is the right or only way to respond, but that also allow that decision to be played out.

Don't you think that's why maybe this country should do a better job at explaining mental illness? If it did then you wouldn't think oh he's different from me because he was mentally ill. The fact that you and others thinks there is such a big chasm between mentally ill and 'normal' only demonstrates another example of how the mentally ill are poorly treated in this country. The difference between this kid and all the other kids could've been as much as a few therapy sessions away.

Why the media needs to hammer home about mental illness is because the stigma needs to be broken down so people who feel their only option is to go out in a blaze of glory will actually have people encouraging them to seek help much early on.

Apoleb
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:15 PM
The media will concentrate on his race because then it takes some of the attention away from the fact that there needs to be tighter gun control laws in the US. And as soon as I heard yesterday that this guy was of Asian heritage I knew that the stories that various news agencies were airing about gun control laws would diminish somewhat and the main talking point would be his background and heritage.

Exactly. I find it hilarious that Fox devoted a whole paragraph in their internet report on what "Ismail Ax" could mean. They even went to the point of saying that in the Kuran Abraham destroys pagan symbols with an ax. :help: They are desperately trying to shift the issue from the fact that this was a mentally ill person who most likely had an easy access to a gun.

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:16 PM
I 100% believe that this guy knew it was "wrong" but my point is it's worth looking at what made him murder 30 some odd people despite "knowing it was wrong" instead of just labeling him crazy right off the bat.

I agree with you, but I believe you can do both. You can look into factors that led him to act out in such a horrific fashion, while at the same time assessing him as being mentally ill.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:18 PM
I can already see the racist idiots turning this debate into something about international students and immigration as opposed to discussing the lack of of access to MENTAL HEALTH help.
Didn't take you long, did it?

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:20 PM
I 100% believe that this guy knew it was "wrong" but my point is it's worth looking at what made him murder 30 some odd people despite "knowing it was wrong" instead of just labeling him crazy right off the bat.

how does labeling him crazy prevent people from looking at what set him off? :scratch: Seems to me labeling what he was and what help he didn't get is what's going to help others. The worst thing I think can happen is for the media to boil it down to his girlfriend broke up with him, or he lost his job and the girlfriend broke up with him. Those type of stressors are quite normal and most people are able to navigate them but some have mental and biological issues that prevent them from handeling them normally. Why shouldn't that be the focus of the discussion?

griffin
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:20 PM
Saying someone is "crazy" or mentally ill does NOT mean they don't understand that a given action is wrong.

I'm with Rocky. We need to change people's understanding of mental illness, not refuse to talk about it. That only make the problem worse.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:21 PM
The people like this shooter (I don't know his name, if it has even been released) ARE different from most people. Most perople wouldn't think of doing such a horrendous thing (THANK GOD!).

Yes, there are other factors that go into the situation, but society does not teach people to open fire in a school setting. Society does not teach us to kill others because we are having a bad day.


Society doesn't teach people to open fire in a school setting? Of course nothing is as explicitly stated, but come on, violence is everywhere in our society. Canada has just as many guns as we do, but why do we have so much more gun crimes than they do? Violence is such a part of our culture that no one has to say to you, "Go shoot up a school to get your point across." people desperate enough will get the message loud and clear on their own.

Also when you realize the way men are socialized in our society we shouldn't at all be surprised that some people react this way. If they are "crazy" some of these people are because of the social expectations they are forced to live up to regardless of how they feel. The social stigma isn't just tied to mental illness in general, it's also tied to men who are depressed or mentally ill etc. It's much more acceptable in american society for women to go seek help than for men. And again who knows if any of this played into it, I'm just saying not only "crazy" people do things like this.

G1Player2
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:22 PM
Didn't take you long, did it?

I knew it would only be a matter of time before you entered this thread Mother Marjorie, the artist formerly known as Swampi Marjorie, Julia 1968, and Oe1968 from the AOL messageboards. :rolleyes: Why don't you provide something useful to a thread for once instead of rambling on with your racist diatribe and trying to attack posters who have something relevant to say. :rolleyes: re: Rocketta

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:23 PM
gplayer, ignore her..

G1Player2
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:25 PM
Don't you think that's why maybe this country should do a better job at explaining mental illness? If it did then you wouldn't think oh he's different from me because he was mentally ill. The fact that you and others thinks there is such a big chasm between mentally ill and 'normal' only demonstrates another example of how the mentally ill are poorly treated in this country. The difference between this kid and all the other kids could've been as much as a few therapy sessions away.

Why the media needs to hammer home about mental illness is because the stigma needs to be broken down so people who feel their only option is to go out in a blaze of glory will actually have people encouraging them to seek help much early on.

:worship:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:26 PM
Also when you realize the way men are socialized in our society we shouldn't at all be surprised that some people react this way. If they are "crazy" some of these people are because of the social expectations they are forced to live up to regardless of how they feel. The social stigma isn't just tied to mental illness in general, it's also tied to men who are depressed or mentally ill etc. It's much more acceptable in american society for women to go seek help than for men. And again who knows if any of this played into it, I'm just saying not only "crazy" people do things like this.

but one of the main socializations of men is that they are weak if they need help and really weak if they need mental health help. That's why we need to talk about mental illness in the open and look at how it failed to identify this kid as someone on the verge of cracking.

Joana
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:28 PM
And again who knows if any of this played into it, I'm just saying not only "crazy" people do things like this.

Things like these are what separates "crazy" people from "sane" ones.
I know that people deal with stress in different ways but this was quite an extreme way, to say the least.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Didn't take you long, did it?

I have no idea what she is talking about.
I don't think anyone including the media wants to take that route.

Again in the last 30 years, over a million students have graduated from colleges and universities across America and I'm sure a few might have been mentally ill but none of them have done the thing this man has done.
And nothing has changed in 30 years.
If someone wanted to do this, they had easy access to guns, they knew if they wanted to kill a lot of people on campus, you find a room on an upper floor in a corner of a building with one door and almost every big university has that.
And yet it hasn't been done in 30 years in America which shows you that maybe this isn't the time to search for something that might not even be there.
Why is it that something else has to be blamed for the actions of a man?
Why can't he be held fully accountable for something that countless other men even those mentally ill have never dreamed about.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:29 PM
but one of the main socializations of men is that they are weak if they need help and really weak if they need mental health help. That's why we need to talk about mental illness in the open and look at how it failed to identify this kid as someone on the verge of cracking.

I'm not disagreeing with YOU, but for many people the explanation that he is "crazy" or mentally ill explains this shooting. And it doesn't in any way, shape, or form explain the whole picture. We need to look at a variety of things to hopefully give an answer as to what set this individual off (again I do think that there is some individual responsibility at play here and we can't just blame gun laws, society, and socialization)

G1Player2
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:31 PM
I'm not disagreeing with YOU, but for many people the explanation that he is "crazy" or mentally ill explains this shooting. And it doesn't in any way, shape, or form explain the whole picture. We need to look at a variety of things to hopefully give an answer as to what set this individual off (again I do think that there is some individual responsibility at play here and we can't just blame gun laws, society, and socialization)

Putting that SOC degree to use, eh? :lol:

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:33 PM
Things like these are what separates "crazy" people from "sane" ones.
I know that people deal with stress in different ways but this was quite an extreme way, to say the least.


Of course it's extreme, I can't imagine it getting much worse than this, but you don't think that "normal" or "sane" people don't ever find themselves in situations where they are so discouraged, frustrated, and down on their luck where they don't feel there is anyone who is willing to help them or they feel the need to lash out at others for the way they feel?

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Things like these are what separates "crazy" people from "sane" ones.
I know that people deal with stress in different ways but this was quite an extreme way, to say the least.

That's my point too.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Putting that SOC degree to use, eh? :lol:

:lol: I SO AM. I try not to only think that way but a lot of it to me makes sense. Like I said, I also am a big proponent of individual responsibility and some people find themselves in the positions they are in because of choices they have made. But sometimes societal influences don't give people a wide range of choices and so unfortunately it comes out in ways that a lot of people can't understand.

P.S. I'm graduating with this degree in 6 weeks! :D

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:39 PM
I'm not disagreeing with YOU, but for many people the explanation that he is "crazy" or mentally ill explains this shooting. And it doesn't in any way, shape, or form explain the whole picture. We need to look at a variety of things to hopefully give an answer as to what set this individual off (again I do think that there is some individual responsibility at play here and we can't just blame gun laws, society, and socialization)

I agree with you.
I don't think any of those things are a major factor in this case but America's tendency to blame something else with the person in the middle of the situation is at play here just as it was with the Imus incident.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:40 PM
I have no idea what she is talking about.
I don't think anyone including the media wants to take that route.

Again in the last 30 years, over a million students have graduated and I'm sure a few might have been mentally ill but none of them have done the thing this man has done.
And nothing has changed in 30 years.
If someone wanted to do this, they had easy access to guns, they knew if they wanted to kill a lot of people on campus, you find a room on an upper floor in a corner of a building with one door and almost every big university has that.
And yet it hasn't been done in 30 years in America which shows you that maybe this isn't the time to search for something that might not even be there.
Agreed.

This issue, which Rocketta has intentionally tried to racialize, has nothing to do with race or mental illness for that matter.

Human beings have been murdering one another since history was first recorded. It has been proven through history that people, in the heat of the moment, people who are angry, can lash out and kill others. Look at the history of the US Postal Service.

This young man wasn't insane. He was able to plot his actions and very well knew what the consequences of his actions would be, which is why he took his own life. He was angry. He was mad as hell, and someone was going to pay.

Not all people that kill are mentally ill. Because of the sheer numbers involved, some people will automatically ASSume it was because he had mental illness.

There is a growing trend of shooting at schools. So, its not too surprising that this type of violence would spread into the university setting.

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Of course it's extreme, I can't imagine it getting much worse than this, but you don't think that "normal" or "sane" people don't ever find themselves in situations where they are so discouraged, frustrated, and down on their luck where they don't feel there is anyone who is willing to help them or they feel the need to lash out at others for the way they feel?

Yes, I think everyone feels like that at some point, but people who are "sane" (and I realise that sanity is a subjective, thing, measured on a sliding scale etc.) realise that they cannot act in the way this shooter did.

Again, his life will have to be looked at, so that it can be better understood where he is coming from, but it is ultimately the shooter who is responsible for his actions.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Yes, I think everyone feels like that at some point, but people who are "sane" (and I realise that sanity is a subjective, thing, measured on a sliding scale etc.) realise that they cannot act in the way this shooter did.

Again, his life will have to be looked at, so that it can be better understood where he is coming from, but it is ultimately the shooter who is responsible for his actions.


Ultimately, you are correct the shooter is responsible for his actions. But it's just as fair to say that some people don't have much of a chance in society because American society put SO MUCH emphasis on personal responsibility.

hablo
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:44 PM
I'm reading stuff about this student and many articles talk about him as if he 'just got off the boat' but hasn't he been in the US since he was 8? I thought I read that. Didn't he graduate from an American high school? So why are they all referring to him as a South Korean born student like South Korea had anything to do with this story? I can already see the racist idiots turning this debate into something about international students and immigration as opposed to discussing the lack of of access to MENTAL HEALTH help. The stigma associated with receiving mental health help and the fact that there is a war on the mentally ill in this country. :banghead:

As soon as it was mentioned that he was asian yesterday, I feared that this type of thing would happen. :o

CondiLicious
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:46 PM
His parents live in a very nice area. Fairfax County is where the posh peoples live.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:48 PM
I knew it would only be a matter of time before you entered this thread Mother Marjorie, the artist formerly known as Swampi Marjorie, Julia 1968, and Oe1968 from the AOL messageboards. :rolleyes: Why don't you provide something useful to a thread for once instead of rambling on with your racist diatribe and trying to attack posters who have something relevant to say. :rolleyes: re: Rocketta
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Specifically explain Mother Marjorie's racist diatribe in this thread?

You, like Rocketta, are just preaching to the choir. It says more about your issues of self-esteem than it does about anyone else in this forum.

Just because I don't subscribe to your "everyone white is a racist" mantra, doesn't make me racist. In fact, it proves you are a racist by p_roxy. You are an ignorant, no good for nothing, piece of shit.

Dementieva_Dude
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:48 PM
Ultimately, you are correct the shooter is responsible for his actions. But it's just as fair to say that some people don't have much of a chance in society because American society put SO MUCH emphasis on personal responsibility.

Yes, American society puts expectations on people, many of which are unfair. It's unfortunate, but sadly I don't see it changing.

I just read earlier in the thread you have a SOC degree (or will in 6 weeks). Congrats:) . It also explain why I agree with most of what you say, but we seem to come at it from different angles (my degree is in cultural anthropology and psych).

Apoleb
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:52 PM
I think it's kind of useless to try and think what went on in his head. I actually kinda agree with Mother_Marjorie that we shouldn't directly assume that he's crazy. Actually, (some expert on this issue could correct me here) crazy and mentally ill aren't the same. He's certainly not mentally stable, but he probably knew very well what he was doing and the consequences of his actions, so there's definitely a degree of personal responsibility.

venus_rulez
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Yes, American society puts expectations on people, many of which are unfair. It's unfortunate, but sadly I don't see it changing.

I just read earlier in the thread you have a SOC degree (or will in 6 weeks). Congrats:) . It also explain why I agree with most of what you say, but we seem to come at it from different angles (my degree is in cultural anthropology and psych).

Thanks! Yeah, I see what you're saying too. I think basically we are saying close to the same thing, just, like you said, coming at it with a different perspective. It's all good. This is when I like the boards the most, when people with different angles and backgrounds can talk about something controversial and exchange ideas and maybe even come from it with a bit more understanding with each other without imploding into personal attacks of people they don't even know.

Sally Struthers
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:54 PM
Uh no. I'm just saying labeling him as "crazy" excuses society as a whole from talking about the issues that creates situations where people feel this is their only option.

lots of people have it rough and have had a tougher life than him by far yet they don't go around blaming the people around them or their environment and go shooting up the place. The blame lays on his shoulders alone.

tennislover
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:55 PM
I agree

about the mental health issue........I have to say that I'm afraid of people who are too much introverse and don't talk to others......that's a bad sign......in that silence a potential murderer can be hidden...........

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:55 PM
As soon as it was mentioned that he was asian yesterday, I feared that this type of thing would happen. :o

Sorry but that's part of the media angle that helps to show this is a one in a billion kind of thing.
The Asian American community isn't blamed for this incident which they shouldn't and foreigners aren't blamed for this situation because as we know there are plenty of them that have helped to make America what it is today.
Whether it's accurate or not it, it might be the best way to deal with this situation.

griffin
Apr 17th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Agreed.

This issue, which Rocketta has intentionally tried to racialize,

Did you read her posts? She's not racializing anything - she's saying it IS being racialized and that this is wrong.


This young man wasn't insane. He was able to plot his actions and very well knew what the consequences of his actions would be, which is why he took his own life. He was angry. He was mad as hell, and someone was going to pay.

I don't know if the shooter was insane or had mental issues. But to imply that people who are mentally ill are incapable of planning, or understanding the consequences of their actions betrays a total lack of understanding of mental illness.

At best, you're confusing it with a legal construct ("not guilty by reason of insanity"). He might not have been able to use a so-called "insanity defense" in court - had he lived - but then, but then very, very few people can despite being deeply disturbed.

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Did you read her posts? She's not racializing anything - she's saying it IS being racialized and that this is wrong.



I don't know if the shooter was insane or had mental issues. But to imply that people who are mentally ill are incapable of planning, or understanding the consequences of their actions betrays a total lack of understanding of mental illness.

At best, you're confusing it with a legal construct ("not guilty by reason of insanity"). He might not have been able to use a so-called "insanity defense" in court - had he lived - but then, but then very, very few people can despite being deeply disturbed.

Thank You! People are totally mixing the legal definition of insane with someone being mentally ill....two different things. Of course he knew right from wrong, that's why he wasn't insane but that doesn't mean he didn't have a mental illness. :shrug:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:05 PM
I agree

about the mental health issue........I have to say that I'm afraid of people who are too much introverse and don't talk to others......that's a bad sign......in that silence a potential murderer can be hidden...........

The bad sign is you going into a witch hunt mode because of this incident.
Again we can not go down that route because in this electronic age we all have loner/introverted tendencies.
You choosing to talk/post about this with what can be considered total strangers instead of friends and family is a loner tendency.
And because of the way western society has embraced the electronic age, we all to a degree have it.
You're basically asking for witch hunt that would never end.

Apoleb
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:13 PM
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

:eek:

roarke
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:19 PM
There is a disucssion in my office right now and at the heart of the conversation is the ethnicity of the killer. It got so bad that this white girl who mentioned that her mother who is white just obtained ciitzenship last year after turning 50 is being told she is only 75% American. It doesn't matter where this kid was born, he didn't just come here. He grew up here with the American values, ideals and morals. Of course a little social and personal responsibility would have been good for him. To emphasise is ethnicity is to somehow shift blame to the country of his origin like it had anything to do with him growing up in an American society as a typical American kid. If this kid had done something great instead of something this hideous, the American media as it represents the voice of Americans would have garnered all the praise and his feat woud have been American.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:25 PM
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

:eek:

I don't particularly think this is a sign that a person is going to kill 32 people.
Dark literature can be a sign of mental illness but looking at the history of literature those who do dark literature, they might try to kill themselves and suceed at it (using alcohol or other devices) but they rarely kill others.
So there is something that manifested itself in this man that is not usual.

Infiniti2001
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:26 PM
I still think he would be labeled a foreign national had this happen in other other country :shrug:

Pengwin
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:28 PM
I still think he would be labeled a foreign national had this happen in other other country :shrug:

Tu quoque?

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 09:57 PM
There is a disucssion in my office right now and at the heart of the conversation is the ethnicity of the killer. It got so bad that this white girl who mentioned that her mother who is white just obtained ciitzenship last year after turning 50 is being told she is only 75% American. It doesn't matter where this kid was born, he didn't just come here. He grew up here with the American values, ideals and morals. Of course a little social and personal responsibility would have been good for him. To emphasise is ethnicity is to somehow shift blame to the country of his origin like it had anything to do with him growing up in an American society as a typical American kid. If this kid had done something great instead of something this hideous, the American media as it represents the voice of Americans would have garnered all the praise and his feat woud have been American.

and you know it. My co-worker brought it up to me by asking had I heard anything. I mentioned all I knew except that he was born in South Korea. First words out of her mouth was that he was a foreign student that he wasn't American. I then of course informed her about how long he had actually lived here and then she was like, "oh".

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 10:00 PM
I still think he would be labeled a foreign national had this happen in other other country :shrug:

I don't know. I haven't a clue how this would be treated in another country. :shrug:

What I don't know is if the perpetrator was a white male born in a European country besides France would they consistently refer to him as the German, Hungarian, Russian born so and so? :confused:

Marshmallow
Apr 17th, 2007, 10:24 PM
:lol: I just thought it’s hilarious how the first person to rebuke Rocketta, was by a person who posted an earlier comment in another thread, asking why this person was let into the country in the first place [immigration].


We should profile our legal immigrants better. Why was
this guy allowed into the nation? Did he ever show any
signs of any problems in the past? Make it harder to get
into this nation, not easier. That's the law we should
be addressing.

And what does that tell you?

With respect to the original post, it’s not just you Rocketta. Earlier the headline on CNN was just referring the the Gunman’s race, and they had a clip of a Korean minister or someone of the sort saying something. [I’m working on a report, volume was down]. This Man’s ethnic origin has no relevance what-so-ever. So what, if he was ‘fresh of the boat’, would we generalise one man’s actions on the Korean nation?

People who commit these kind of crimes are without a doubt mentally unstable. There are some signs that he was mentally unstable, but not enough to have predicted this. Analysis of his computer and room may offer more juicy information. But anyway, that is where media coverage should focus. Not whether or not his family lived here illegally like Fox and CNN seem to be pointing out.

tennislover
Apr 17th, 2007, 10:41 PM
The bad sign is you going into a witch hunt mode because of this incident.
Again we can not go down that route because in this electronic age we all have loner/introverted tendencies.
You choosing to talk/post about this with what can be considered total strangers instead of friends and family is a loner tendency.
And because of the way western society has embraced the electronic age, we all to a degree have it.
You're basically asking for witch hunt that would never end.

good point

on the other hand consider just this: IMHO every human being is a potential murderer........:scared:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 17th, 2007, 10:57 PM
good point

on the other hand consider just this: IMHO every human being is a potential murderer........:scared:

IMHO every human being has the ability to do good in this world and a good portion do.

Infiniti2001
Apr 17th, 2007, 10:59 PM
I don't know. I haven't a clue how this would be treated in another country. :shrug:

What I don't know is if the perpetrator was a white male born in a European country besides France would they consistently refer to him as the German, Hungarian, Russian born so and so? :confused:

Well I won't get into race, but as someone from another country, I can tell you this happens elsewhere. It happens time and time again in the Caribbean when people from other islands commit crimes. The news is always quick to mention their nationalities even though they're residents :shrug:

hablo
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:08 PM
Well I won't get into race, but as someone from another country, I can tell you this happens elsewhere. It happens time and time again in the Caribbean when people from other islands commit crimes. The news is always quick to mention their nationalities even though they're residents :shrug:

But the point is that it's not right. :shrug:
I still remember when Ben Johnson won the gold medal and we were all proud Canadians. And then when he got busted for steroids, he was suddenly more Jamaican than anything else. It irritated me then and it is irritating still in this case. :fiery:

Rocketta
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:23 PM
Well I won't get into race, but as someone from another country, I can tell you this happens elsewhere. It happens time and time again in the Caribbean when people from other islands commit crimes. The news is always quick to mention their nationalities even though they're residents :shrug:

Yeah, it's definitely a scapegoat issue. The problem with them doing it here is because out of one side of their mouth they want to talk about the US being a melting pot and then out of the other they want to make sure you know he wasn't born here.......but he was raised here and that's all that should matter really. I could understand it if he came here as a teenager or later but at 8? He's a product of the US.

ico4498
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:36 PM
I still remember when Ben Johnson won the gold medal and we were all proud Canadians. And then when he got busted for steroids, he was suddenly more Jamaican than anything else. It irritated me then and it is irritating still in this case. :fiery:

:worship::worship::worship:

CondiLicious
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:36 PM
An advisory to Asian American journalists:

Media Advisory: Coverage on Virginia Tech Shooting Incident
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Janice Lee, 415-346-2051, JaniceL@aaja.org

SAN FRANCISCO (April 16, 2007) -- Like the rest of the nation, we at the Asian American Journalists Association (AAJA) are stunned at the news of today's shooting at Virginia Tech. Our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends as they cope with this horrific incident.

As coverage of the Virginia Tech shooting continues to unfold, AAJA urges all media to avoid using racial identifiers unless there is a compelling or germane reason. There is no evidence at this early point that the race or ethnicity of the suspected gunman has anything to do with the incident, and to include such mention serves only to unfairly portray an entire people.

The effect of mentioning race can be powerfully harmful. It can subject people to unfair treatment based simply on skin color and heritage.

We further remind members of the media that the standards of news reporting should be universal and applied equally no matter the platform or medium, including blogs.

We at AAJA, representing approximately 2,000 reporters, editors, photographers and executives in the industry, encourage journalists to refer to style and reference books, both within their own shop as well as AAJA's at http://www.aaja.org/resources/apa_handbook/. (http://www.aaja.org/resources/apa_handbook/)

We also invite those with concerns or questions to contact AAJA as a resource for issues of fair and accurate coverage of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. AAJA's national office is at (415) 346-2051, National@aaja.org, www.aaja.org. (http://www.aaja.org./)

It shouldn't be about race. So true.

trivfun
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:52 PM
I'm sorry, if a man in France, one of the infamous 'youths' that burn
cars, attack women in buses, rampage on a nightly basis....actually
killed a few people - would they not mention if he was a citizen of
France or a green card citizen of France?


I think they would.

They'd call him a youth with a green card.



Sir, I work at a newspaper. If I wrote that kind of stuff , I'm fired on the spot. You have to give three main points when you present a profile of a person. None was done. You can't write like a womanizer. You can do this at a student newspaper or a neighborhood papers because they lack resources but a major paper no way. Inexcusable. Misleading statements.

trivfun
Apr 17th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Detective Lily Rush is going to have to look at this one 10 years from now.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 18th, 2007, 12:03 AM
But the point is that it's not right. :shrug:
I still remember when Ben Johnson won the gold medal and we were all proud Canadians. And then when he got busted for steroids, he was suddenly more Jamaican than anything else. It irritated me then and it is irritating still in this case. :fiery:

Well you're going to have to be irritated.
It's a two way street and there are athletes who get passes using their citizenship.
When James Blake needed a WC into Wimbledon all of a sudden he was a Brit.
He got his wildcard but the consequences were that he then gave media the right to pick and choose what citizen he is at a point in time and others.
He's not the only one who does it though but he is an example.

So if you're going to be irritated at the way Ben Johnson is treated then you need to be irritated at James Blake for using his to get something he wanted.
That abuse of citizenship is the reason why Mary Pierce is treated a certain way (French when she wins, American or Canadian when she doesn't) and the reason why Ben Johnson is treated a certain way.

*JR*
Apr 18th, 2007, 12:30 AM
It is just you, there is no prejudice involved just your paranoia. The chap is a south korean since he has no U.S. citizenship. I lived in the U.S. for a while and I certainly do not consider myself American. I was born and brought up in Switzerland but aonly consider myself Swiss after if I got the citizenship.
The Suisse will take anybody, as a person I talk about a lot in GM illustrates. ;)

Rocketta
Apr 18th, 2007, 12:37 AM
An advisory to Asian American journalists:



It shouldn't be about race. So true.


Yeah, it's terrible they even have to send something like this out. :fiery:

ampers&
Apr 18th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Watching CNN and other cable stations and their focus on how "Korean-American communities feel about one of their own committing such a crime" is seriously nauseating. They never objectify white killers who commit such crimes. I don't recall them specifically going into White American communities across the country to ask how they feel about the crime because those boys were white. I understand going to the community he grew up in, but going all the way to Los Angeles to get the "reaction" of the Korean-Americans there is truly ridiculous.

Rocketta
Apr 18th, 2007, 03:53 AM
Watching CNN and other cable stations and their focus on how "Korean-American communities feel about one of their own committing such a crime" is seriously nauseating. They never objectify white killers who commit such crimes. I don't recall them specifically going into White American communities across the country to ask how they feel about the crime because those boys were white. I understand going to the community he grew up in, but going all the way to Los Angeles to get the "reaction" of the Korean-Americans there is truly ridiculous.

Yeah isn't that sickening? :(

venus_rulez
Apr 18th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Well considering that amateur newspaper reporters and students with no journalism experience were reminding reporters that we did not have all the facts and therefore needed to not make judgments, says a lot about the quality of reporting in this case.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:07 AM
What are you talking about?

Racist?

The early reports yesterday were that he was Chinese or an
illegal alien, or a resident with legal status. They finally got it
right today.


Access to mental health?

It's free to most students on college campuses.

In fact, it's free to anyone in the USA, if you ask for it.


almost everything you post is bullshit so i never reply but this in bold is a damn lie and you know it. mental health services are EXTREMELY difficult to get in any context in america. many insurances dont cover it. and any "free" services have waiting lists of a year or more and are often limited to 4-8 visits.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:14 AM
Isn't that crazy or at least disturbed? :confused:

i agree taking other peoples lives in this way is at least a little crazy.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:31 AM
The bad sign is you going into a witch hunt mode because of this incident.


chill. tennislover was saying thats how he feels, he didnt say (or imply) anything about that being the result of what happened yesterday. nor did he say anything about a witch hunt.

ZeroSOFInfinity
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:39 AM
Watching CNN and other cable stations and their focus on how "Korean-American communities feel about one of their own committing such a crime" is seriously nauseating. They never objectify white killers who commit such crimes. I don't recall them specifically going into White American communities across the country to ask how they feel about the crime because those boys were white. I understand going to the community he grew up in, but going all the way to Los Angeles to get the "reaction" of the Korean-Americans there is truly ridiculous.

I watched CNN this morning on the same thing, and I kinda feel bad for them, especially the Korean girl who was studying in the same college as the shooter. If I was not mistaken, after the identity of the shooter was known to be one of their own, the girl's mother immediately asked her to pack her things and head back straight home for the fear of retaliation from other students. I wonder how she and other Korean students would be able to cope with the aftermath of this event. There is a saying in my country - "A drop of poison makes the whole milk unconsumable", meaning when one person does something bad, the image of those associated or linked to him is tarnished. This is the same thing that's happened here... and the image of Korean-Americans could be tarnished forever because of the actions of one disgruntled student. :help:

May those who die under the gun at Virginia Tech rest in peace.

Apoleb
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:55 AM
Watching CNN and other cable stations and their focus on how "Korean-American communities feel about one of their own committing such a crime" is seriously nauseating. They never objectify white killers who commit such crimes. I don't recall them specifically going into White American communities across the country to ask how they feel about the crime because those boys were white. I understand going to the community he grew up in, but going all the way to Los Angeles to get the "reaction" of the Korean-Americans there is truly ridiculous.

This is sickening. :fiery: It's the same old Orientalist mentality. Failing to see the individual in the conext of individuality rather than in the group. The guy's race/ethnic identity should only have been a point of detail, whether he grew up in the US or came new, rather than a topic of debate. But it's all to create a spacegoat in order to evase the real issues.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:25 AM
chill. tennislover was saying thats how he feels, he didnt say (or imply) anything about that being the result of what happened yesterday. nor did he say anything about a witch hunt.

Since he/she mentioned that I had a good point and then gave me a good rep how about you shut the fuck up for once. :wavey:
I mentioned the same point twice to two posters and not one negative thing was said.
If it was that serious of an issue then they had the option of replying back and saying so.
They don't need you to do it for them.
So you need to fall back.

go hingis
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:34 AM
It's sad that we are all too busy to help or to really care why he did this. We never get to the core of anything because it's easier to just say he was crazy and not see that 1000's of children/people are feeling the way he did.

Wigglytuff
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:40 AM
Yeah isn't that sickening? :(

basically

TF Chipmunk
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:42 AM
I'm reading stuff about this student and many articles talk about him as if he 'just got off the boat' but hasn't he been in the US since he was 8? I thought I read that. Didn't he graduate from an American high school? So why are they all referring to him as a South Korean born student like South Korea had anything to do with this story? I can already see the racist idiots turning this debate into something about international students and immigration as opposed to discussing the lack of of access to MENTAL HEALTH help. The stigma associated with receiving mental health help and the fact that there is a war on the mentally ill in this country. :banghead:It is only if you perceive it in such a way :shrug: They're merely reporting the facts. It's a part of building the personality of who this person was because obviously nobody knew who he was. He was a South Korean who came to America. That's an accurate description.

cellophane
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:56 AM
Watching CNN and other cable stations and their focus on how "Korean-American communities feel about one of their own committing such a crime" is seriously nauseating. They never objectify white killers who commit such crimes. I don't recall them specifically going into White American communities across the country to ask how they feel about the crime because those boys were white. I understand going to the community he grew up in, but going all the way to Los Angeles to get the "reaction" of the Korean-Americans there is truly ridiculous.

Have you considered that it's not about not being white... and being Asian, but about the fact that he is likely viewed as an immigrant frrom a "bad country" (or any other country) and not an American citizen? If he had been from say, Serbia, there would still likely be articles and news reports about it and reactions from the Serbian community. Post 9/11 media reactions of this sort are not surprising. What exactly is offensive about them going into the community alone to ask for reactions if they are not pointing fingers? It is going to have a huge effect on the Korean community, because of the way some people will wrongly perceive this as something having to do with Korea.

kittyking
Apr 18th, 2007, 06:19 AM
Newsflash: The guy was a nutcase

I dont care if he was Chinese, South Korean, Resident Alien, Illegal Immigrant, Immigrant, Gambler, Good Student, Bad Student, Popular, Unpopular, Gay, Straight, Bi or if he had an affair with a student, used to date one the girls who died, was the person who shaved Britneys head, made out with Hillary Clinton, danced with John McCain, bought George Bush a birthday present

The guy was a stupid nutcase who killed 32 innocent people, tell ya what I aint going to his funeral

trivfun
Apr 18th, 2007, 06:27 AM
Because we don't live in a vacuum. Most people don't internalize their failures and blame themselves (especially men, they aren't socialized to see themselves as the reason for failure) they look to outside forces (real or imagine) for why their life is in shams.

Do guys judge themselves on being success or failures and why should they do that because it only seems to me that it would be a failure?

Jakeev
Apr 18th, 2007, 06:49 AM
The point that is being entirely missed here is that it doesn't freaking matter who the asshole killer was.

The reality is people, old and young, various races and ethnic backgrounds and men and women were either killed or injured by a deranged individual.

At this point, I can careless who the murderer was. It's the victims and the families that are suffering the most.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 18th, 2007, 10:18 AM
Yeah isn't that sickening? :(
I'll tell 'ya what's sickening.

They haven't even buried those children yet, and people are so self-absorbed with their racial issues that they don't even have enough respect to wait at least 3 days before starting their bullshit.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 18th, 2007, 10:23 AM
Did you read her posts? She's not racializing anything - she's saying it IS being racialized and that this is wrong.
Did you read the title to the thread?
I don't know if the shooter was insane or had mental issues. But to imply that people who are mentally ill are incapable of planning, or understanding the consequences of their actions betrays a total lack of understanding of mental illness.

At best, you're confusing it with a legal construct ("not guilty by reason of insanity"). He might not have been able to use a so-called "insanity defense" in court - had he lived - but then, but then very, very few people can despite being deeply disturbed.
There was no confusion. What you are implying is that people who murder have some sort of mental illness, which isn't always the case. And without a live subject for psychological testing, how can you just assume he was?

Lord Nelson
Apr 18th, 2007, 12:38 PM
The Korean guy should have gone to North Korea instead. Look at what happened to Dresnok. He was a high school dropout who was in the U.S. militrary and who had psychological problems. He then deserted the army and fled across DMZ to North Korea in 1961. He acted in some North Korean movies, married a diplomat's daughter and his son is studying in North Korean elite school. He cannot ever leave the country but I think he is happy over there. Cho could have done the sameting but of course he probably would have been imprisoned and tortured.

Here is a link on my pal Dresnok. He was the John Wayne of North Korean cinema. :worship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtkHUkZ8Rg

griffin
Apr 18th, 2007, 02:19 PM
Have you considered that it's not about not being white... and being Asian, but about the fact that he is likely viewed as an immigrant frrom a "bad country" (or any other country) and not an American citizen?

YES - THAT'S THE POINT :banghead:

Marjorie - please try reading the first line of the comment you quoted

Reading - it's fundamental.

venus_rulez
Apr 18th, 2007, 03:11 PM
Do guys judge themselves on being success or failures and why should they do that because it only seems to me that it would be a failure?


I think everyone evaluates their life to see if they are successful/failure. Obviously, everyone is looking for something a little different so in and of itself success/failure will vary according to the person. That's not to say that there aren't societal expectations of what success is. For instance, think about how people, especially women, have to explain if they don't want or don't have kids. The reaction usually isn't "oh ok." It's more like, "Oh My God, why?" There's a societal expectation that part of being happy or having a complete life involvs having kids. And I agree with you if you define success or failure by looking at someone else's life, then that can be very dangerous and you're likely to never be satisfied, but LOTS of people define success/failure that way.

cellophane
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:48 PM
YES - THAT'S THE POINT :banghead:

Marjorie - please try reading the first line of the comment you quoted

Reading - it's fundamental.

If you are saying that's exactly the point that's being made in this thread, then it's not. Numerous posts are pointing out it's discrimination based on race, but that's not what I was saying.

gotthebend
Apr 18th, 2007, 04:56 PM
I would call the killer a sociopath. He was not mentally ill but didhave serious problems. Like one of his professors says, his writing had already shown that he wasn't "normal." According to the school authority, he had caused problems like stalking female students and threating people. There might be an incidient that set him off though we might never know what that is. But my guess is that his parents probably knew something was going on a long time ago, perhaps a few years back. But in Asian culture, such mental problem is a terrible stigma and they probably wouldn't tell anyone or even seek help.

Rocketta
Apr 18th, 2007, 05:49 PM
YES - THAT'S THE POINT :banghead:

Marjorie - please try reading the first line of the comment you quoted

Reading - it's fundamental.

she might also want to look up the word 'prejudice' she will see that it has nothing to do with race..... speaking of the mentally ill...I think it's quite fitting to have a few live examples to go by. :cuckoo:

Lord Nelson
Apr 18th, 2007, 07:23 PM
I would call the killer a sociopath. He was not mentally ill but didhave serious problems. Like one of his professors says, his writing had already shown that he wasn't "normal." According to the school authority, he had caused problems like stalking female students and threating people. There might be an incidient that set him off though we might never know what that is. But my guess is that his parents probably knew something was going on a long time ago, perhaps a few years back. But in Asian culture, such mental problem is a terrible stigma and they probably wouldn't tell anyone or even seek help.

Depends what Asian nations you are talking about. Not South Asia for sure. I don't blame anyone but the killer. He was a loner and at the end could not support the loniness. He then decided to kill himself and to 'bring with him' some others as well......By the way I love how the media referred to his first victim as his girlfriend. The guy had no gfs and media may have thought the the killer was the girl's boyfriend.

roarke
Apr 18th, 2007, 08:22 PM
Newsweek
Braced for Backlash

Korean-Americans fear that hatred toward the Virginia Tech killer will spill over into their community—and fuel negative typecasting.

April 18, 2007 - The bodies had barely been removed when the racial epithets started pouring in. Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old identified as the killer of 32 on the Virginia Tech campus, may have lived in the state since his elementary school days, but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most. "Koreans are the most hotheaded and macho of East Asians," wrote one unnamed commentator on the Sepia Mutiny blog. "They are also sick and tired of losing their Korean girlfriends to white men with an Asian fetish."

The vitriol of comments like these has shocked America's Korean community, leaving it braced for a backlash and scrambling to control the damage caused by distorted stereotypes. In South Korea—where government officials feared that the incident could further sour relations with Washington—the foreign ministry issued a statement saying that it hoped the tragedy would not provoke "racial prejudice or confrontation." Inside the United States, social-network users set up online forums with names like "Don't Hate Koreans Because of Cho Seung-Hui" and "Cho Seung-Hui Does NOT Represent Asians." Some spoke of launching a fund-raising drive for the families of those who died in the most deadly school shooting in U.S. history. But many fear these measures won't be enough to blunt the hatred. "In the wake of 9/11, we saw so many racially charged incidents that I don't think it's out of the question to suspect this [prejudice] will happen," says Aimee Baldillo, a spokeswoman for the Asian American Justice Center, a Washington-based civil-rights group. "The lesson we learned then was that individuals are going to get targeted on the basis of a perceived race or ethnicity with connection to a suspect."

An estimated 1.4 million people of Korean descent live in the United States. Badillo says her organization has already received reports—still unconfirmed—of several crimes of retribution against the community. Online, chat rooms throbbed with hate. "Take that s--t back to your own nation," declared one participant on the social networking site Facebook. Not all the comments were negative: 23-year-old student and tech consultant Eugene Kim told NEWSWEEK that about half of the online commentators on Faceook "are saying how an individual shouldn't be generalized to the entire Asian community." Others, however, were making remarks like "This guy [Cho] comes to our country on a visa; he's not even a citizen." Kim, himself an ethnic Korean, says he has already been the butt of several jokes: "One guy at work said, 'You guys better be real nice to Kim. Make sure he doesn't get stressed out so he doesn't come in and shoot everyone.'"

Other Asians in the United States also experienced mixed emotions when it was confirmed that Cho was indeed Korean. Vietnamese-American writer Andrew Lam says he had held his breath waiting to learn the killer's identity, hoping his community wouldn't shoulder collective blame for the acts of an individual. "Let it be some other Asian!" was the prayer among many Asian-American communities, Lam says. Other Asians meanwhile, said they fear a spillover effect would extend beyond Koreans. "The things that some of you are saying scare the s—t out of me," wrote one Facebook contributor. "I know you all remember the stories of [turbaned] Sikhs getting beaten up after 9/11. Can we show some sense for once?"

Korean-related Web sites, meanwhile, came under intense scrutiny. The site for the national Korean American Student Association, which carried forum postings from alumni expressing support for Virginia Tech, on Tuesday morning went offline with no explanation by the afternoon. At Virginia Tech itself, the Korean Student Association site was shut down; a message in Korean said it had been closed temporarily because of too much server activity. Seung-Woo Lee, the head of the Virginia Tech association, told NEWSWEEK he had received calls from many of the several hundred ethnic Korean students on campus telling him they felt "horrified and scared." Several parents had already come to their campus to take their children home, he said.

Cho was clearly a troubled young man, whose motives for the rampage may never be known. But scholars like Hugo Schwyzer, a history and gender studies professor at Pasadena City College in Los Angeles-where 35 percent of the college population is of Asian descent—says he expects to see some "classically damaging" typecasts of Asian males as socially awkward and introverted, as more information about Cho emerges. Fears are running particularly high in Los Angeles, home to one of the nation's largest Korean-American communities. Many residents there remember the violence during the Rodney King race riots that ravaged the city 15 years ago, and fear the possibility of becoming targets again. "We were once the hatred target of black Americans," says L.A. businessman Kim Yong Gi. "I hope we don't become the target of all Americans this time."

"The Korean community as a whole is in shock," says John Cho, the Los Angeles-based assistant editor of the Korean Times (and no relation to the gunman). "Something like this has never happened to us." Cho is especially sensitive to concerns about stereotyping—and the pressures facing young men like Cho. "When you first move here, it is a challenge to learn English, to make friends. In Korea, we are all taught to act as part of a group, to be part of bigger group. But here, people are taught to be individuals and to shine on an individual basis. That's culturally hard for us." One of the additional pressures facing Koreans, Cho notes, is the belief that members of the group achieve disproportionately high success rates. "The Korean community is known for overachieving," says Cho. Maybe [the killer] had pressures on him that he couldn't settle because he wasn't in [his home] community." Cho's newspaper is among the institutions trying to counter negative perceptions of the community. But even as Cho tries to explain the typecasting, he is aware of the irony. "What's worrying is that if a white person had done this," he muses, "no one would call up the white community and ask if they were going to be stereotyped."

With BJ Lee in Seoul, Tara Weingarten in Los Angeles and Lynn Waddell in Blacksburg, Va.

hablo
Apr 18th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Depends what Asian nations you are talking about. Not South Asia for sure. I don't blame anyone but the killer. He was a loner and at the end could not support the loniness. He then decided to kill himself and to 'bring with him' some others as well......By the way I love how the media referred to his first victim as his girlfriend. The guy had no gfs and media may have thought the the killer was the girl's boyfriend.

Wasn't it the police who treated the first shooting as a "domestic" affair in the first place and the media just reported it as such? :shrug:

Rocketta
Apr 18th, 2007, 10:22 PM
Newsweek
Braced for Backlash

Korean-Americans fear that hatred toward the Virginia Tech killer will spill over into their community—and fuel negative typecasting.

April 18, 2007 - The bodies had barely been removed when the racial epithets started pouring in. Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old identified as the killer of 32 on the Virginia Tech campus, may have lived in the state since his elementary school days, but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most. "Koreans are the most hotheaded and macho of East Asians," wrote one unnamed commentator on the Sepia Mutiny blog. "They are also sick and tired of losing their Korean girlfriends to white men with an Asian fetish."

The vitriol of comments like these has shocked America's Korean community, leaving it braced for a backlash and scrambling to control the damage caused by distorted stereotypes. In South Korea—where government officials feared that the incident could further sour relations with Washington—the foreign ministry issued a statement saying that it hoped the tragedy would not provoke "racial prejudice or confrontation." Inside the United States, social-network users set up online forums with names like "Don't Hate Koreans Because of Cho Seung-Hui" and "Cho Seung-Hui Does NOT Represent Asians." Some spoke of launching a fund-raising drive for the families of those who died in the most deadly school shooting in U.S. history. But many fear these measures won't be enough to blunt the hatred. "In the wake of 9/11, we saw so many racially charged incidents that I don't think it's out of the question to suspect this [prejudice] will happen," says Aimee Baldillo, a spokeswoman for the Asian American Justice Center, a Washington-based civil-rights group. "The lesson we learned then was that individuals are going to get targeted on the basis of a perceived race or ethnicity with connection to a suspect."

An estimated 1.4 million people of Korean descent live in the United States. Badillo says her organization has already received reports—still unconfirmed—of several crimes of retribution against the community. Online, chat rooms throbbed with hate. "Take that s--t back to your own nation," declared one participant on the social networking site Facebook. Not all the comments were negative: 23-year-old student and tech consultant Eugene Kim told NEWSWEEK that about half of the online commentators on Faceook "are saying how an individual shouldn't be generalized to the entire Asian community." Others, however, were making remarks like "This guy [Cho] comes to our country on a visa; he's not even a citizen." Kim, himself an ethnic Korean, says he has already been the butt of several jokes: "One guy at work said, 'You guys better be real nice to Kim. Make sure he doesn't get stressed out so he doesn't come in and shoot everyone.'"

Other Asians in the United States also experienced mixed emotions when it was confirmed that Cho was indeed Korean. Vietnamese-American writer Andrew Lam says he had held his breath waiting to learn the killer's identity, hoping his community wouldn't shoulder collective blame for the acts of an individual. "Let it be some other Asian!" was the prayer among many Asian-American communities, Lam says. Other Asians meanwhile, said they fear a spillover effect would extend beyond Koreans. "The things that some of you are saying scare the s—t out of me," wrote one Facebook contributor. "I know you all remember the stories of [turbaned] Sikhs getting beaten up after 9/11. Can we show some sense for once?"

Korean-related Web sites, meanwhile, came under intense scrutiny. The site for the national Korean American Student Association, which carried forum postings from alumni expressing support for Virginia Tech, on Tuesday morning went offline with no explanation by the afternoon. At Virginia Tech itself, the Korean Student Association site was shut down; a message in Korean said it had been closed temporarily because of too much server activity. Seung-Woo Lee, the head of the Virginia Tech association, told NEWSWEEK he had received calls from many of the several hundred ethnic Korean students on campus telling him they felt "horrified and scared." Several parents had already come to their campus to take their children home, he said.

Cho was clearly a troubled young man, whose motives for the rampage may never be known. But scholars like Hugo Schwyzer, a history and gender studies professor at Pasadena City College in Los Angeles-where 35 percent of the college population is of Asian descent—says he expects to see some "classically damaging" typecasts of Asian males as socially awkward and introverted, as more information about Cho emerges. Fears are running particularly high in Los Angeles, home to one of the nation's largest Korean-American communities. Many residents there remember the violence during the Rodney King race riots that ravaged the city 15 years ago, and fear the possibility of becoming targets again. "We were once the hatred target of black Americans," says L.A. businessman Kim Yong Gi. "I hope we don't become the target of all Americans this time."

"The Korean community as a whole is in shock," says John Cho, the Los Angeles-based assistant editor of the Korean Times (and no relation to the gunman). "Something like this has never happened to us." Cho is especially sensitive to concerns about stereotyping—and the pressures facing young men like Cho. "When you first move here, it is a challenge to learn English, to make friends. In Korea, we are all taught to act as part of a group, to be part of bigger group. But here, people are taught to be individuals and to shine on an individual basis. That's culturally hard for us." One of the additional pressures facing Koreans, Cho notes, is the belief that members of the group achieve disproportionately high success rates. "The Korean community is known for overachieving," says Cho. Maybe [the killer] had pressures on him that he couldn't settle because he wasn't in [his home] community." Cho's newspaper is among the institutions trying to counter negative perceptions of the community. But even as Cho tries to explain the typecasting, he is aware of the irony. "What's worrying is that if a white person had done this," he muses, "no one would call up the white community and ask if they were going to be stereotyped."

With BJ Lee in Seoul, Tara Weingarten in Los Angeles and Lynn Waddell in Blacksburg, Va.

whewwwww, I'm glad this situation has been racialized or else there would be backlash.......Oh wait...:tape: :help:

cellophane
Apr 18th, 2007, 11:09 PM
But even as Cho tries to explain the typecasting, he is aware of the irony. "What's worrying is that if a white person had done this," he muses, "no one would call up the white community and ask if they were going to be stereotyped."

Yeah, they would actually. They would stereotype the individual based on the country he/she is from even if he were white. You just have to be stupid enough.

*JR*
Apr 18th, 2007, 11:34 PM
The LPGA is in big trouble. Almost half the players are Korean. :scared: