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Marshmallow
Apr 12th, 2007, 07:20 PM
Below is a reaction article to the British prime-ministers comments yesterday, where he claimed a black Pastor (Reverend) told him it was time for the black community to start saying this was a problem within our community.

THANKFULLY, Iím not the only person who was irritated by the comments.

From a news report on the issue; one of the pioneers of the ĎMothers against Gun crimeí organisation (who is not black) denounced not only the comments, but the media reporting of this issue. [I canít give exact quotes Ė this is from FRESH memory but] she basically said Gun and Knife violence occurred in all racial communities (inc Asian, White and Black). Also, the media were more likely to report the issue if the perpetrators were black. For example, just last week an asian youth was gunned down outside his home, yet today very little is said about this story, maybe because it doesnít fit in with the 7 or so recent reported murders of black/biracial youths in the London area. [There have been a whole string of killings recently yet they are being ignored].

Secondly, from the news report and the article, the Pastor who the Prime minister spoke two, is ANGRY that his words are being twisted. See the article for more details and comments. In the news report he also pointed to the fact that there was a March not so long ago, involving leaders from various racial communities who came together and basically said this was a problem in all their communities.

-
I was mostly irritated with the fact that the prime ministers because they are irresponsible! Itís just this kind of propaganda that perpetuates negative stereotypes about certain groups which can lead to all sorts of racial divisions. I mean, I can imagine some non-black people who have had very little interaction with black people, believing that black people are some how more prone to violence Ė when in reality, this seems to be more a social class issue / problem not a racial one. If perhaps the portion of black perpetrators is higher than any other group, perhaps there is a greater proportion of black people in lower social classes. [Not fact just a thought].

I just donít think this issue should be classed or treated as a racial problem with insufficient evidence. If music is to be blamed, then surely media also are just as bad.

thoughts anyone?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6548403.stm

Marshmallow
Apr 12th, 2007, 07:22 PM
The article:

Blair gun crime speech attacked

An anti-gun crime campaigner has accused Tony Blair of quoting him out of context in a speech calling for black people to denounce gang violence.
Mr Blair said Rev Nims Obunge asked him "when are we going to start saying this is a problem amongst a section of the black community?".

But Rev Obunge said he had been making the case for more cash for black community groups.

And he did not support Mr Blair's call for tougher laws.

During the speech in Cardiff, Mr Blair - who is expected to resign after the May elections - said one of the consequences of approaching the end of his premiership was a tendency to "lurch into complete frankness".

Political correctness

He said he had been speaking to a black pastor of a London church at a Downing Street knife crime summit who had asked him: "When are we going to start saying this is a problem amongst a section of the black community and not, for reasons of political correctness, pretend that this is nothing to do with it?"

Eight teenagers have been shot or stabbed to death in London since the start of the year, most recently 14-year-old Paul Erhahon in east London.

Mr Blair told an audience in Cardiff laws on "knife and gun gangs" needed to be "significantly toughened" and the ring-leaders taken "out of circulation", with the youngest put in secure accommodation if necessary.

"The black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law-abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids," said MR Blair.

But Mr Obunge, leading member of grassroots anti-gun crime campaign The Peace Alliance, told the BBC he had been asking Mr Blair for "targeted support" from the government - not tougher laws.

He said the work already being carried out in the black community was not being given any "sustainable support".

"We are not asking for more legislation, I made that very clear when we sat together at Downing Street," he told Radio 4's Today programme.

"The prime minister has insisted that the way forward is to continue legislating on our young black kids."

Mr Blair's comments were also criticised by other groups, including the African and Caribbean Evangelical Alliance, Lee Jasper - the mayor of London's equality adviser, and Churches Together in England.

Bishop Joe Aldred, secretary for minority ethnic Christian affairs for Churches Together in England, said: "I'm not sure where the prime minister has been, or who he's been talking to, if he thinks black communities have not been denouncing the gangs and gang activity.

"Black communities, particularly the black Christian communities, have not only been denouncing this evil, but have been hard at work, taking action to try to find solutions."

controlfreak
Apr 12th, 2007, 08:22 PM
I reckon they should bring a large shipment of handguns into the UK, but coat each gun with a layer of Polonium. I bet gun crime would drop overnight.

Monica_Rules
Apr 12th, 2007, 08:33 PM
Its a dificult issue and i agree with you the media doesn't help. But the media always blows things out of proportion, i mean this issue with the soldiers in Iran and the money, i don;t think the public care anymore yet they go on about it.

Anyway thats not the issue. I'm white and have been brought up in a 99% white commuinity but i am not naiive enough to believe that all gun/knife crime is connected with the black/asian community, i do think it has more to do with social background, although, ask yourself when was the last time you heard of a white person being gunned down or stabbed due to 'gang culture'. This could be down to a lack of attention by the media yes but i'm from wales which i;d say is about what 96% white? Probably more and i NEVER hear of any gun crimes or stabbings here. Of course you get the occasional nut job who stabs his girlfriend cos she left him or a psycho who kills old women cos he wants to become a vampire.

Again this could be downplayed by the media but people round where i live talk so things get around, It could be put down to the lack of big cities here which is true as most problems seem to occur in manchester, birmingham, nottingham and london.

The_Pov
Apr 12th, 2007, 11:59 PM
I totally agree with the Prime Minister because over the last few months black teens have been killed by other black teens and men. The muslims have been told to say terrorism was a part of their community and so I also think the Black community should admit that it's their children killing each other. The Prime Minister would be wrong if gun violence was happening amongst other communities but it's not. Those six teens were all black teens and this gang culture in the UK is prevalent amongst the black communities. I'm not say the White people (or people of any othe race) don't have gangs or carry guns or that all black people are gun carrying gang fiends but it has become a norm over the last few months to hear about a Black male teenager being stabbed to death or shot!

Pengwin
Apr 13th, 2007, 12:20 AM
90% of Black people in Britain vote for Labour

Tony Blair must be really serious if he wants to jeapordise these votes, so I am confident that he believes this, and it's not political manouvering

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:35 PM
First, thanx to all the MANY people who responded. I appreciate the comments, and was happy to hear the different points of view.

I totally agree with the Prime Minister because over the last few months black teens have been killed by other black teens and men. The muslims have been told to say terrorism was a part of their community and so I also think the Black community should admit that it's their children killing each other. The Prime Minister would be wrong if gun violence was happening amongst other communities but it's not. Those six teens were all black teens and this gang culture in the UK is prevalent amongst the black communities. I'm not say the White people (or people of any othe race) don't have gangs or carry guns or that all black people are gun carrying gang fiends but it has become a norm over the last few months to hear about a Black male teenager being stabbed to death or shot!

Due to the exhausting debates on racism that have been going on, I really tried to over look the comments in the above post that I thought were ignorant to say the least (and focus on the message) Ė but seriously, do you really believe these statements? Of all the killings that have occurred in recent months, (the proportion of killings that are gang related and the victims black), as of yet there have been no convictions that I am aware of, so how can you be sure the all killers were black? This remains an assumption. Terrorism is part of every community, terrorism occurs on many levels not just suicide bombings. The notion of HELL has been used in ways that may be described as terrorist, hoodies on street terrorists and other forms of anti-social behaviour can also be deemed terrorist acts, and not all of these perpetrators are muslim.

But onto this Black on black gang violence. I found an article that best represents my opinion, by Melanie Phillips.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=437040&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=256&expand=true#StartComments

People, the prime minister included IMO, are guilty of a short sightedness on the issue. My main problem with his speech was that it did not even consider the causes / roots of this violence (which are key to understanding the issue). So without really understanding the nature of the problem, he made this speech that in a way holds the black community responsible and tells them to fix it. Might I add, his source Ė for making the speech, has publicly declared his words were taken out of context, so yet again the prime minister is jumping to conclusions on shaky information.

For example, drugs are a major driving factor in gang dealings, and numerous sources say that the vast majority of those purchasing the drugs are NOT BLACK. Without this drugs market, the violence may not be occurring.
Also, Britain has be found to be the worst place to grow up as a child/youth. Social class may play a role in all this, and I think the national stats have it that a large proportion of black people in this country are living in the lower classes, a contributory factors to perhaps going into gangs in the first place. Though probably not a direct cause of anything, it maybe be a contributory factor to the state of things.

Generally there are various factors and explanations for this phenomenon, and abruptly classing it as a race issue is very irresponsible by the prime minister IMO. Itís quite serious really, because many people Ė clearly including yourself just seem to accept what he says and donít bother to look a the real issue, and understand the real, larger phenomenon going on.

PS Ė if you read either article, you will know that the black community have already been vocal about gang violence and black on black violence. Te pastor speaking to the pime minister wanted increased funding into schemes and ideas produced by the black community. The black community cannot deal with this phenomenon that is beyond race, alone.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:36 PM
The excellent article by Melanie phillips:

Gun violence: The real crime is the refusal to face the truth

Another shooting in the early hours of yesterday in North London adds to the grisly toll of gangland gun violence over the past fortnight.
There has been particular revulsion at the youth of some of these murder victims - two of them only 15, and one 16 years old, and the humdrum settings of their killings, with one gunned down at an ice rink, one at home and another in his own bedroom.

This shocking situation has elicited the predictable signs of political panic. The Prime Minister says Something Must Be Done. He calls a summit of ministers and community leaders. He floats the possibility of lowering the age limit for gun crime prosecutions from 21 to 17, and giving more powers to the police.

These are all knee-jerk reactions. The problem is not too few laws or not enough police powers. It is that the laws we already have are being actively undermined by a culture that is sliding towards social anarchy.

At the heart of the problem is family breakdown and the widening epidemic of mass fatherlessness, condoned and promoted by political and legal circles hell-bent on destroying marriage and promoting the myth that every kind of family is as good as any other.

Entrenched

As last week's devastating UNICEF report observed, Britain is at the very bottom of the league of western nations when it comes to children's well-being - and the root cause of that is nothing other than the disintegration of the family.

In such shattered family backgrounds, the young person's peer group becomes all important; the gang becomes his surrogate family and the gang leader his replacement father. This is a particular problem for the black community, where fatherlessness is endemic and drug culture entrenched.

This fundamental breakdown in social control is then compounded by just about every agency that deals with young people.

The schools deliver a broken education system, with the most vulnerable children left illiterate and innumerate; with the same 'child-centred' dogma destroying all boundaries and discipline; and with special schools catering for the most disturbed children, shut down in the benighted cause of 'social inclusion'.

The criminal justice system has become a revolving door, with those few young criminals who are actually arrested being given the equivalent of a slap on the wrist and sent home, from where they are sucked into a widening spiral of crime and more fruitless court appearances.

Worst of all is the total shambles of drugs policy, which has led directly to the epidemic of drugs on our streets, the rise in drug use and the ever younger age of both users and dealers.

This appalling situation is the direct result of the grip of the drug legalisation lobby on the Government, police and fashionable society, the downgrading of cannabis and the subsequent explosion of hard drugs as the bottom fell out of the flooded cannabis market.

When they look at the recent carnage on the streets of Moss Side and Longsight in Manchester, or Streatham, Peckham, Camberwell, Clapham and Hackney in London, all those people who promoted this chain of events should hang their heads in shame. This blood is on their hands.

On top of all this is the profound racism of a society which, while demonising as 'racist' anyone who dares discuss black crime, actually ignores the growing mayhem within black communities - because of the shameful and unstated belief that while it's only black people who are committing violence against other black people, there's no reason for anyone else to bother about it.

Such an attitude is as short-sighted as it is terrible. It is terrible because the lives of black people are as valuable as those of anyone else.

It is terrible because this racism leads directly to the killing and abandonment of human beings under the camouflage of progressive attitudes.

Gangs

It is terrible because it is mainly white drug users who are being supplied by these black gangs. And it is short-sighted because this mayhem is spreading well beyond the black population.

Across the Atlantic, they've already been there and done all that - denial of the impact of mass fatherlessness, helplessness in the face of drug culture, 'anti-racist' paralysis - and come out the other side.

Communities previously written off as shattered beyond repair have turned themselves round.

The key was when black people realised that the main victims of all this were their own young men who were dying at the hands of other black men, and decided that this carnage had to stop. So they started to take responsibility for their own community.

In Boston, the poorest areas of Dorchester and neighbouring Roxbury were, until 1992, a war zone. There were gun battles between schoolchildren, knife-fights on buses, drive-by shootings. Now, these streets are safe to walk and crime is down.

This was achieved by black pastors leaving their church pulpits to patrol the streets and pull in their errant young for correction, drug treatment and other measures.

Crucially, they did not act alone. They went out on patrol with police officers pursuing a zero tolerance approach to crime, and probation officers who abandoned both their desks and their 'friend of the criminal' approach in order to pick up youths who were in breach of their probation orders and threaten them with prison if they didn't meet stringent conditions for staying out of trouble.

In Britain, encouragingly, a growing number of pastors from black churches are trying to do the same thing. The problem is the absence of appropriate support for them.

Unlike America, we do not have zero tolerance of crime or drugs but policies which promote them. Unlike America, our police and probation officers are still paralysed by political correctness, human rights law and the perception that the criminal is the victim of society.

The belief that authority is a dirty word means there is no recognition of the crucial fact that the more shattered a child's background, the more urgent is his need for the strongest possible boundaries and clear sanctions if they are transgressed.

Discipline

Those who do grasp this achieve stunning results. In East London, the Eastside Young Leaders' Academy transforms black boys from jail fodder into model pupils.

It does this through the tough love of uncompromising discipline - an essential antidote to schools where mistakes are never corrected and misdemeanours indulged, and families where the fathers who would have fulfilled such a role are universally absent.

So this problem is not hopeless. It can be turned around by a tough-minded, no-nonsense attitude to personal and social responsibility. What is hopeless is the moral muddle of a society whose antipathy to authority has reached such a pitch that tough discipline is said to infringe a child's 'human rights'.

A society which believes that locking up large numbers of young criminals is worse than allowing them to continue to terrorise the streets. A society which places freedom of expression higher than stopping gangsta rap messages promoting violence, murder and bigotry as 'cool'.

A society whose rich, white cocaine habit is serviced by a sordid and violent black drug economy, the truth of whose existence that same white society is at pains to sanitise and censor. Such a society produces dead children.

It need not be so. All that is needed is the will to change. It is the absence of that will that is truly criminal.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:43 PM
90% of Black people in Britain vote for Labour

Tony Blair must be really serious if he wants to jeapordise these votes, so I am confident that he believes this, and it's not political manouvering


Firstly where did you get this statistic and how old is it? I can understand it, if t was taken from 1997, but certainly not if it is from the last general election. Though... maybe it's true, but i think a large proportion of the black vote is spread amongst just the two main parties, and the conservatives have had an image problem (not appealing to ethnic communities for AGES) so i can see why.

Also, what proportion of the black community actually voted? Most of the black people i know, who voted, voted liberal democrats.

Anyway, so what? Tony blair also believed there were weapons of mass desruction in Iraq, or at least that he could get way with the claim? Maybe not manuvering, but i think it's careless and irresponsible!

Kart
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:48 PM
The media are well known to pick and choose what stories they feel like publicising - this is nothing new and it's always going to be this way.

The press seem to place more emphasis on being sensational these days though I'm sure that's partly to sell papers / get viewers etc. We play our own part in that by the papers we read.

I find it interesting that Blair - who has always tended to sit on the fence - seems to want to offer parting shots in has remaining days.

He is tarnishing his legacy IMHO.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:48 PM
Its a dificult issue and i agree with you the media doesn't help. But the media always blows things out of proportion, i mean this issue with the soldiers in Iran and the money, i don;t think the public care anymore yet they go on about it.

Anyway thats not the issue. I'm white and have been brought up in a 99% white commuinity but i am not naiive enough to believe that all gun/knife crime is connected with the black/asian community, i do think it has more to do with social background, although, ask yourself when was the last time you heard of a white person being gunned down or stabbed due to 'gang culture'. This could be down to a lack of attention by the media yes but i'm from wales which i;d say is about what 96% white? Probably more and i NEVER hear of any gun crimes or stabbings here. Of course you get the occasional nut job who stabs his girlfriend cos she left him or a psycho who kills old women cos he wants to become a vampire.

Again this could be downplayed by the media but people round where i live talk so things get around, It could be put down to the lack of big cities here which is true as most problems seem to occur in manchester, birmingham, nottingham and london.

I can see what you're saying, and this was a good post. Thanx. :)

But of course, i just think there's a much larger phenomenon at play with a multitude of factors, and the sensationalised 'Black on Black gang violence' is a symptom more so that some wild phenomenological epidemic on it's own.

But like most of us, i just want to know if the crimes are linked and if so by what? Something tragic is going on, and a solution is needed fast, before more lives cut short because of the most stupid of things.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 03:59 PM
I find it interesting that Blair - who has always tended to sit on the fence - seems to want to offer parting shots in has remaining days.

He is tarnishing his legacy IMHO.

I know, he was doing so well, till the War on terror i think. He's been under a great deal of pressure since, and he has not handled it well.

Apoleb
Apr 13th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I just don’t think this issue should be classed or treated as a racial problem with insufficient evidence.

I agree. Even if it turns out to be that crime is more prevalent among Black groups than others, race shouldn't be brought to this issue, cause reasons at core have to do with social status, education, family breakup..etc. And saying that Black people should admit that there's a problem just like Muslims admitted that terrorism is a problem is incredibely racist and stupid.

This quote by Blair especially struck me, and I think it has racist undertones:

"The black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law-abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids," said MR Blair. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6548403.stm)

First, I would find it hard to believe that the majority of Black people would approve of killings and gang culture. Second, would denunciation do anything? How does it solve the problem? He looks like he desperately wants to make this an issue of simply race, and asking Black people to denounce killings definitely has racist undertones for me.

Bezz
Apr 13th, 2007, 04:46 PM
I think there seems to be a serious lack of direction in the black community in Britain today. This is leading many young black men to become involved in gangs and lead a life of crime. Unlike other communities like asian and south-east asian there seems to be little guidance and a desire to do well in education and employment. Thats not to say that all black people are this way but in comparison percentage wise to other ethnic groups they come bottom in most if not all league tables. Its a serious concern which people just ignore becuase the word "black" is used. People in the black community need to wake up and realise whats going on and set examples, encourage youngsters to make something with their lives and not just bum about on the street.

:cool:

The_Pov
Apr 13th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I think there seems to be a serious lack of direction in the black community in Britain today. This is leading many young black men to become involved in gangs and lead a life of crime. Unlike other communities like asian and south-east asian there seems to be little guidance and a desire to do well in education and employment. Thats not to say that all black people are this way but in comparison percentage wise to other ethnic groups they come bottom in most if not all league tables. Its a serious concern which people just ignore becuase the word "black" is used. People in the black community need to wake up and realise whats going on and set examples, encourage youngsters to make something with their lives and not just bum about on the street.

:cool:

Totally!

Apoleb
Apr 13th, 2007, 04:54 PM
People in the black community need to wake up and realise whats going on and set examples, encourage youngsters to make something with their lives and not just bum about on the street.


That's a simplistic look. It's not all about black people needing to wake up and act, but also the job is on the government in trying to improve the social conditions where crime is prevalent. Like the article above mentions, people don't want to get involved as long as it's a "black issue" and then say black people should do more about it.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 05:04 PM
I think there seems to be a serious lack of direction in the black community in Britain today. This is leading many young black men to become involved in gangs and lead a life of crime. Unlike other communities like asian and south-east asian there seems to be little guidance and a desire to do well in education and employment. Thats not to say that all black people are this way but in comparison percentage wise to other ethnic groups they come bottom in most if not all league tables. Its a serious concern which people just ignore becuase the word "black" is used. People in the black community need to wake up and realise whats going on and set examples, encourage youngsters to make something with their lives and not just bum about on the street.

:cool:

:speakles:

I cannot understand why you have that smiley @ the end of your post. but onto the main stuff. With respect to the bold statement - if we consider all races, national statistics and studies diagree with you. Proportionally, the are more blacks and asian students in post 16 education, than their white counterparts. If you don't believe me look up national statistics, or read the education chapter of 'Race, ethnicity and exclusion' by david mason (second edition).

This whole guidance argument is overly simplistic. With respect to the home, where we get our primary guidance, i totally reject this implication that somehow black parents are offering less guidance. ALL parents, irrespective of race want their children to succeed in life, and so in education.

It's much more complex than this. Also, afro-caribbean, the popular term in league tables does not mean BLACK. Black african, black british... not a big point, but these statistics don't even reflect the general black population.

BUT... you have an interesting point, one that needs to be considered for sure.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 05:14 PM
Hmm.. but let me just think about this – ‘lack of guidance’. Historically, when black migrants came to this country earlier this century, they did the lower class jobs that whites did not want to do. At the bottom of the food chain. In spite of progression, racism and institutional racism are still part of society. As a consequence, the victims of racial abuse (particularly the older relatives of todays black youths) may have passed on some kind of racist – water. I mean, the victims or racist abuse are damaged psychologically, and so this effects the kind of guidance, ambition and so on they pass on to their children. But this is just me thinking out loud.

It is interesting though.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 05:25 PM
And saying that Black people should admit that there's a problem just like Muslims admitted that terrorism is a problem is incredibely racist and stupid.

Totally!!!

I'm starting to think that poster, is that (both) way inclined.

Bezz
Apr 13th, 2007, 06:28 PM
:speakles:

I cannot understand why you have that smiley @ the end of your post. but onto the main stuff. With respect to the bold statement - if we consider all races, national statistics and studies diagree with you. Proportionally, the are more blacks and asian students in post 16 education, than their white counterparts. If you don't believe me look up national statistics, or read the education chapter of 'Race, ethnicity and exclusion' by david mason (second edition).

This whole guidance argument is overly simplistic. With respect to the home, where we get our primary guidance, i totally reject this implication that somehow black parents are offering less guidance. ALL parents, irrespective of race want their children to succeed in life, and so in education.

It's much more complex than this. Also, afro-caribbean, the popular term in league tables does not mean BLACK. Black african, black british... not a big point, but these statistics don't even reflect the general black population.

BUT... you have an interesting point, one that needs to be considered for sure.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=461

If you flick through the options on the right hand side of the screen, you can see that black people are greatly underachieving compared to chinese and asian immigrants in the UK. The reasons for it are varied but i still think the community itself is the centre of the 'problem'.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 06:53 PM
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=461

If you flick through the options on the right hand side of the screen, you can see that black people are greatly underachieving compared to chinese and asian immigrants in the UK. The reasons for it are varied but i still think the community itself is the centre of the 'problem'.

This is an example of propaganda on your part and i'll tell you why. My argument was that the proportion of black and asian youths going into post-16 (complusary) education is greater than that of the white community. Check the references i gave. Or a study by Modood in 2004 (i don't have a link). One explanation, could be that black youths may be getting this guidance to succeed and pursue education as much as anyone.

Your stats are on grades achievement, for which there is a separate debate going on, and the racist attitudes in education being looked at.

With respect to your stats, what about the comparisons with the white community, european community, why have you left these out? Not supporting your claim? Why are you comparing only black and asian?

Also bear in mind when your looking at the stats, the actual topic HERE.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 07:01 PM
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/461a.gif

And from there this is a chart of people of certain ethnic origins with no qualifications. I could twist this to say all sorts.

And also please keep in mind, statistics do not mean causality. If black people are living in the poorest areas, they will be going to the most deprived schools not helping performance.

You're entitled to your opinion, butjust don't assume it's fact.

Marshmallow
Apr 13th, 2007, 07:28 PM
A final note from me. A fundamental point that i've been trying to make has been over looked by 'some'. A complex phenomenon is being simplified into a race issue. [Please read the melanie phillips article].

If it's a race issue at the core, think of the implications. Black people are some how less able as parents than other races? Black students are less intelligence than other races so resort to violence?

If you even consider the above statements; respectively, you are an absolute moron, an ignorant one at that that needs to read primar source data and not propaganda. Evidence? The Genome project found that only one gene separates people of different races, the gene for skin colour. Secondly between race differences in genetic profiles are more diverese than between races. 2. MANY psychological studies prove a social class issue with respect to intelligence. Kids from lower social classes adopted by higher class parents irrespective of race, had higher IQs than siblings etc left in lower social class environment.

Do not over simplify complex issues, because you can bet bothered to read important literature, or listen to both sides. The evidence, and the word from people who research all these issues - point to all this NOT being an issue of race!!!

Social structures need to be looked into.

*faints*

Apoleb
Apr 13th, 2007, 08:20 PM
A final note from me. A fundamental point that i've been trying to make has been over looked by 'some'. A complex phenomenon is being simplified into a race issue. [Please read the melanie phillips article].

If it's a race issue at the core, think of the implications. Black people are some how less able as parents than other races? Black students are less intelligence than other races so resort to violence?

If you even consider the above statements; respectively, you are an absolute moron, an ignorant one at that that needs to read primar source data and not propaganda. Evidence? The Genome project found that only one gene separates people of different races, the gene for skin colour. Secondly between race differences in genetic profiles are more diverese than between races. 2. MANY psychological studies prove a social class issue with respect to intelligence. Kids from lower social classes adopted by higher class parents irrespective of race, had higher IQs than siblings etc left in lower social class environment.

Do not over simplify complex issues, because you can bet bothered to read important literature, or listen to both sides. The evidence, and the word from people who research all these issues - point to all this NOT being an issue of race!!!

Social structures need to be looked into.

*faints*

*you must spread..* :fiery: I hate this shit. I have to give reps left and right before I give them to the right people.

People are so quick to interpret things with race. And to reduce the whole thing into "black people should start caring about grades and employment" is ridiculous. Who doesn't want to succeed in life? There are social problems that are at heart of "gang culture" or whatever you want to call it. I guess, black community leaders should get involved (whatever that means, but this is what some are asking for I guess), but them saying that there's a problem within blacks won't solve anything and I just don't see the point of stressing on this. Plus, tougher laws won't do anything. Trying to improve social conditions, educational programs..etc will.

The_Pov
Apr 13th, 2007, 09:58 PM
:speakles:

I cannot understand why you have that smiley @ the end of your post. but onto the main stuff. With respect to the bold statement - if we consider all races, national statistics and studies diagree with you. Proportionally, the are more blacks and asian students in post 16 education, than their white counterparts. If you don't believe me look up national statistics, or read the education chapter of 'Race, ethnicity and exclusion' by david mason (second edition).

This whole guidance argument is overly simplistic. With respect to the home, where we get our primary guidance, i totally reject this implication that somehow black parents are offering less guidance. ALL parents, irrespective of race want their children to succeed in life, and so in education.

It's much more complex than this. Also, afro-caribbean, the popular term in league tables does not mean BLACK. Black african, black british... not a big point, but these statistics don't even reflect the general black population.

BUT... you have an interesting point, one that needs to be considered for sure.

No one is saying that Black people are stupid or achieve nothing but having more black people in post 16 education has no bearing on the fact that there is a problem of gang culture which is prevalent amongst the black community. You can have a community which has many people going on to post 16 education and also a problem with gun and knife violence.

ASV_FAN
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:04 PM
This sort of thing is all about the blacks because they go for the gang culture image. I blame rap music, they're the ones who glamourise it.

SJW
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:25 PM
I for one am really happy that people who have little to no contact with black culture in England are such experts on the subject :worship: I guess those sociology classes in the English education system are worthwhile.

I agree with Kart. The media like to pick and choose their stories. A lot of WASP English people, like we've seen in other issues, like to swallow bullshit instead of looking beside the issue and for deeper meaning. Unlike most of the "experts" in this thread, I don't live in an all white community. However, the constant refusal for people to investigate for themselves instead of regurgitating bullshit is the exact reason why race relations in the UK are heading the American way :)

SJW
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Special thanks too Bezz and The Pov for telling us what the black community need to do. We are extremely grateful, I'm sure your educated suggestions are based on first-hand experience and not MTV and other popular culture. :yeah::rolleyes::weirdo:

Monica_Rules
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Quick question SJW whats a WASP english person?

And i don't think anyone here is trying to claim to be an expert on the subject, they are just putting accross their views based on their experience or their research. Doesn't mean they are right or wrong.

Stamp Paid
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:45 PM
Quick question SJW whats a WASP english person?

And i don't think anyone here is trying to claim to be an expert on the subject, they are just putting accross their views based on their experience or their research. Doesn't mean they are right or wrong.

White Anglo Saxon Protestant.

Monica_Rules
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:50 PM
ah ok, thanx

The_Pov
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Special thanks too Bezz and The Pov for telling us what the black community need to do. We are extremely grateful, I'm sure your educated suggestions are based on first-hand experience and not MTV and other popular culture. :yeah::rolleyes::weirdo:

I was just giving my opinion in my neighbourhood there is no gang culture or anything like that and there is no crime at all.

And anyway one of my housemates is from Barking and she is the most outspoken of my friends on black on Black violence (She's black) and she has said on numourous occasions that after uni she'll never go back to another black community, because she wants her future family brought up somewhere safe. I have other black friends from London who say that same things. They have said that their communities are the reason why they've worked hard to get to a good uni so they can escape the kind of life they were brought up in. My housemate Lola (the one from Barking) is always saying she wishes her parents could lived somewhere like where I live and could have provided the things that my parents have given me and because she didn't have that she is going to do the next best thing and bring her children up in a nice area free from violence.

So no I don't have direct experiance I was privaliged to be brought up in a great area but I have direct contact with people trying to escape that enviroment.

SJW
Apr 13th, 2007, 10:55 PM
Quick question SJW whats a WASP english person?

And i don't think anyone here is trying to claim to be an expert on the subject, they are just putting accross their views based on their experience or their research. Doesn't mean they are right or wrong.

I apologize if I came off defensive in my posts, but it's really irritating to see "black people need to do this" and "black people need to do that" from people who really don't know anything but what the media tells them. Research? I don't honestly think anybody in this thread (bar maybe Marshmallow) has extensively researched this topic because it is being overly simplified. Black issues are very complex, much moreso than what the BBC or Tony Blair can inform you guys of.

I was just giving my opinion in my neighbourhood there is no gang culture or anything like that and there is no crime at all.

And anyway one of my housemates is from Barking and she is the most outspoken of my friends on black on Black violence (She's black) and she has said on numourous occasions that after uni she'll never go back to another black community, because she wants her future family brought up somewhere safe. I have other black friends from London who say that same things. They have said that their communities are the reason why they've worked hard to get to a good uni so they can escape the kind of life they were brought up in. My housemate Lola (the one from Barking) is always saying she wishes her parents could lived somewhere like where I live and could have provided the things that my parents have given me and because she didn't have that she is going to do the next best thing and bring her children up in a nice area free from violence.

So no I don't have direct experiance I was privaliged to be brought up in a great area but I have direct contact with people trying to escape that enviroment.

Barking is hardly a "black area" when it comes to London.
The fact that she wants to disconnect herself from black communities altogether is very telling. :)
I am trying to get you guys to explore beyond the "my friend said" stage. It's not that freaking simple. I got everything I need to know from your comment about not having experienced black people because you were "privilidged", and as stupid as that comment is I'll let it pass because I see you are extremely uneducated on the subject. I was bought up in a black area, one that actually happens to be one of the most prosperous in the country. So while I'm sorry to burst your bubble on negative stereotypes on black people, it is not all bad :). Tell your housemate to seek help by the way, I don't trust anyone who doesn't want to be around their people whatsoever.

!<blocparty>!
Apr 13th, 2007, 11:28 PM
To try and classify it by ethnic and sexual groups is basically ignoring the issue. It's bigger than that and requires significantly more input than trying to blame communities which Tony is gradually destroying anyway. These comments aren't doing anything to help the current situation, particularly in London, they're just going to make it even worse. Racial tensions too. Imagine what all the Daily Mail readers were thinking about this yesterday. I heard it all from my Grandad. :tape:

These areas are poor and run down. The infrastructure is decayed and useless. High poverty and low employment leads to a large amount of dissafected youth. The development of gangs is a direct result of social conditioning and tribalism - consider the football gangs; consider gang development in the US. Whenever you have a group of people with nothing to do they seek means of developing their own group. The direct response to this is evolving an us and them mentality - this leads to racism; class wars, etc. etc.

Unfortunately black society has more than its fair share of poverty and so also harbours more than its fair share of street violence. It is also more likely that males subscribe to this lifestyle because we have and I imagine always will be the more aggressive sex.

Sort out the poverty and many of the associated problems will disappear at the same time. I realise that this is a simplistic view, but I believe the issue really is that simple. The main stumbling block is that successive British governments seem to have a loathing of simple solutions to simple problems.

SJW
Apr 13th, 2007, 11:34 PM
To try and classify it by ethnic and sexual groups is basically ignoring the issue. It's bigger than that and requires significantly more input than trying to blame communities which Tony is gradually destroying anyway. These comments aren't doing anything to help the current situation, particularly in London, they're just going to make it even worse. Racial tensions too. Imagine what all the Daily Mail readers were thinking about this yesterday. I heard it all from my Grandad. :tape:

These areas are poor and run down. The infrastructure is decayed and useless. High poverty and low employment leads to a large amount of dissafected youth. The development of gangs is a direct result of social conditioning and tribalism - consider the football gangs; consider gang development in the US. Whenever you have a group of people with nothing to do they seek means of developing their own group. The direct response to this is evolving an us and them mentality - this leads to racism; class wars, etc. etc.

Unfortunately black society has more than it's fair share of poverty and so also harbours more than its fair share of street violence. It is also more likely that males subscribe to this lifestyle because we have and I imagine always will be the more aggressive sex.

Sort out the poverty and many of the associated problems will disappear at the same time. I realise that this is a simplistic view, but I believe the issue really is that simple. The main stumbling block is that successive British governments seem to have a loathing of simple solutions to simple problems.

This is why you're my favourite white boi :yeah:
There you go folks, there's like 5 black people in Wales yet Tim doesn't subscribe to the sensationalism. :weirdo: Unfortunately, he is evidently part of a dying breed capable of thinking outside the box, reading between the lines and looking behind the issue.

The_Pov
Apr 13th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Barking is hardly a "black area" when it comes to London.
The fact that she wants to disconnect herself from black communities altogether is very telling. :)
I am trying to get you guys to explore beyond the "my friend said" stage. It's not that freaking simple. I got everything I need to know from your comment about not having experienced black people because you were "privilidged", and as stupid as that comment is I'll let it pass because I see you are extremely uneducated on the subject. I was bought up in a black area, one that actually happens to be one of the most prosperous in the country. So while I'm sorry to burst your bubble on negative stereotypes on black people, it is not all bad :). Tell your housemate to seek help by the way, I don't trust anyone who doesn't want to be around their people whatsoever.

Where did I say in post that black areas can't be prosperous. My Dad who works in the city knows many black investment bankers. I don't have a nagative view on black people at all I have a negative view on poor areas. My student house in Southampton is one and it's horrible and I'm glad I get this experiance now because I am never living in a run down area again. And my friend doesn't need help, she's past race as a means of defining herself and doesn't feel the need to live with Black people because she's black.

Also I live in one of the wealthiest parts of the country and we have two black families living here have they turned their back on their communties? Are they untrustworthy?

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Where did I say in post that black areas can't be prosperous. My Dad who works in the city knows many black investment bankers. I don't have a nagative view on black people at all I have a negative view on poor areas. My student house in Southampton is one and it's horrible and I'm glad I get this experiance now because I am never living in a run down area again. And my friend doesn't need help, she's past race as a means of defining herself and doesn't feel the need to live with Black people because she's black.

Also I live in one of the wealthiest parts of the country and we have two black families living here have they turned their back on their communties? Are they untrustworthy?

You said that your "friends" don't want to go back to black communities because they want to escape violence, and I'm telling you that not all black communities are violent. In fact, until recently, most violence in my area was by white drunken young males in the city centre. That, my friend is found in local papers and not the national media that likes to concentrate on selling news rather than covering it.

I never said she should live with black people because she's black. Way to twist things. You said she's black and would never live in a black community again. The fact that she "doesn't want to live in a black community" says a lot. She could have said she wants to live in a nice neighbourhood, but she wants to choose where she lives based on the skin colour of the residents. That's pathetic in my opinion. I bet you wouldn't think it was ok if she said "I don't want to live around white people".

Anybody who turns their back on a problem instead of working hard to improve the situation is untrustworthy IMO. Disconnecting yourself from reality makes you a coward.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 12:40 AM
To try and classify it by ethnic and sexual groups is basically ignoring the issue. It's bigger than that and requires significantly more input than trying to blame communities which Tony is gradually destroying anyway. These comments aren't doing anything to help the current situation, particularly in London, they're just going to make it even worse. Racial tensions too. Imagine what all the Daily Mail readers were thinking about this yesterday. I heard it all from my Grandad. :tape:

These areas are poor and run down. The infrastructure is decayed and useless. High poverty and low employment leads to a large amount of dissafected youth. The development of gangs is a direct result of social conditioning and tribalism - consider the football gangs; consider gang development in the US. Whenever you have a group of people with nothing to do they seek means of developing their own group. The direct response to this is evolving an us and them mentality - this leads to racism; class wars, etc. etc.

Unfortunately black society has more than its fair share of poverty and so also harbours more than its fair share of street violence. It is also more likely that males subscribe to this lifestyle because we have and I imagine always will be the more aggressive sex.

Sort out the poverty and many of the associated problems will disappear at the same time. I realise that this is a simplistic view, but I believe the issue really is that simple. The main stumbling block is that successive British governments seem to have a loathing of simple solutions to simple problems.

:sobbing: What took responses like this so long? I don't think anyone can imagine how horrible it's been trying to reason with the likes of The_Pov, worst of all, Bezz :scared:

Thank you, for your well reasoned post. :hug:

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 12:44 AM
I for one am really happy that people who have little to no contact with black culture in England are such experts on the subject :worship: I guess those sociology classes in the English education system are worthwhile.

...Maybe my avatar is THAT misleading. I'd just like to point out, that I'm a black, psychology student from black on black violence central (London).

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 01:09 AM
...Maybe my avatar is THAT misleading. I'd just like to point out, that I'm a black, psychology student from black on black violence central (London).

Not you honey, not you. I was sarcastically referring to Bezz and The Pov. I admit though, I thought you were a white person well versed on this subject.

Are you West Indian?

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 01:13 AM
I was just giving my opinion in my neighbourhood there is no gang culture or anything like that and there is no crime at all.

And anyway one of my housemates is from Barking and she is the most outspoken of my friends on black on Black violence (She's black) and she has said on numourous occasions that after uni she'll never go back to another black community, because she wants her future family brought up somewhere safe. I have other black friends from London who say that same things. They have said that their communities are the reason why they've worked hard to get to a good uni so they can escape the kind of life they were brought up in. My housemate Lola (the one from Barking) is always saying she wishes her parents could lived somewhere like where I live and could have provided the things that my parents have given me and because she didn't have that she is going to do the next best thing and bring her children up in a nice area free from violence.

So no I don't have direct experiance I was privaliged to be brought up in a great area but I have direct contact with people trying to escape that enviroment.

I think this post actually adds to the social status case.

Firstly, you live in Ďprivilegedí area with a low crime rate. [High status area = low crime rate]. Well, part of the argument has been that low class areas have higher crime rates, and it just so happens (for various historical reasons), that these areas have high numbers of black people. For decades and decades these areas had little going for them, even before the influx of black and Asian migrant workers arrived, who werenít paid very well doing the jobs that no-one else wanted and so offered the cheapest housing in the cheapest areas that no-one wanted.

From what you say, you housemate (while vocal on black on black violence), seems to be complaining more about growing up in a low class area. Who wants to return to a low class area? Who isnít driven to find a way out of poverty? Do you think Maria Sharapova and co want to return to cheap run down areas, or they want to be better of, and have their kids better off. Thatís just the logical move, we all strive to better ourselves.
Secondly, when I think of Areas in London with high concentrations of black people, Barking is NOT one of them and I have friends who live there today.

In the case that your friends has explicit said she doesnít want to return to areas with high black communities as opposed to just low class areas, then thatís very sad. [I can understand the latter and hopefully, if youíre learning anything from this debate *finger crossed* you can too :rolleyes:].

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 01:16 AM
Not you honey, not you. I was sarcastically referring to Bezz and The Pov. I admit though, I thought you were a white person well versed on this subject.

Are you West Indian?

:lol: No, of African origin, but have been in the UK since i was 3. Are you in the UK? I assumed you like most were from the states. :)

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 01:21 AM
:lol: No, of African origin, but have been in the UK since i was 3. Are you in the UK? I assumed you like most were from the states. :)

I am of Bajan origin, based in England, and currently living in the states :p.
Complicated, but it has helped me develop a world view on everything which I love.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 01:26 AM
I am of Bajan origin, based in England, and currently living in the states :p.
Complicated, but it has helped me develop a world view on everything which I love.

:D Well i apprecitae the 'world view' based additions to the thread. :)

!<blocparty>!
Apr 14th, 2007, 02:07 AM
I've been reading a LOT of comment articles about these issues lately both online and in the papers. It's (surprisingly - for me) a really interesting issue.

In UK prisons and according to crime stats, there are more whites in prison, committing crimes and being arrested than blacks. But if you do the percentages, the population of blacks linked to crime is on the high. But people don't see maths, they 'see' and 'hear' people committing crimes. Why is there more whites in prisons than blacks, and more whites in every area of crime (recorded and unrecorded) - even in street drug business - and yet most people 'see', 'hear' and 'concern' about blacks doing crime? What is so threatening about the number of black crimes? Shouldn't dangers be to do with quantitative presence? Do blacks commit more crimes than whites?

Percentage wise, blacks are poorer than whites, yes? But who receives most of government transfers? Not blacks. Why? Because there are more poor whites than blacks. But they say blacks are poorer than whites? When it comes to dishing out government money to the poor 'black communities' are fine and haven't to do anything about the 'overrepresented black poor'. Money shows the difference between absolute and relative numbers on one hand, and government concern and policy on the other.

Why not do the same with crime: focus more policies and concern on white criminals than blacks. Blacks may be overrepresented in prison, but whites commit far more crimes than blacks. Focus on 'white communities'??? No? Ahhhhhh. ;):p

So this so-called 'unique danger of black crime' is :bs::shrug:

If blacks commit less crime (absolute frequency), why do stories about black criminals create more sensation than white criminals?

If crime is going up, why not concentrate on those who commit crime the MOST? Black people don't commit crime the most. Why doesn't Tony spell out what is the problem with black people commiting crimes that is so troubling that 'black communities' should do something about it, but 'white communities' are doing well with white people commiting crime? It makes no sense to me. The media's roll in creating this ill-perception is definitely underestimated.

Bezz
Apr 14th, 2007, 11:35 AM
:D Well i apprecitae the 'world view' based additions to the thread. :)

I think i was about to vomit when i read this post- can you please remove your nose from SJW's arse, thanx . World view?... more like Western view and even that isn't well rounded consisting of just the US and UK :rolleyes:.

SJW you know nothing about where i have lived and havern't lived. I live with a black african and lived for 3 years with a caribbean african, and not only that but i live in the west midlands which has the largest number of ethnic minorities outside of london and funnily enough even speak to them :eek: . The place where i work is probably split 50% white 30% asian and the rest is made up of east europeans and blacks. When speaking to these people you actually get a sense that they have first hand experience of what the media represents if not an overly dramatic way, and that saying "well white people commit crime" isn't actuallly an argument. On the HMP website it actually says 24% of the prison population is made up of ethnic minorities, now this could be another attempt by the media to have another go at ethnics or maybe there is actually 24% ethnic minorites in UK prisons:confused: . If this is accurate which it probably is, then with the UK on the whole having only 6% ethnic minorites its 4 times more than what it should be.

Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't

meyerpl
Apr 14th, 2007, 12:31 PM
I mean, I can imagine some non-black people who have had very little interaction with black people, believing that black people are some how more prone to violence Ė when in reality, this seems to be more a social class issue / problem not a racial one. If perhaps the portion of black perpetrators is higher than any other group, perhaps there is a greater proportion of black people in lower social classes. [Not fact just a thought].


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6548403.stm
It's an excellent thought too, one that I wish would get more consideration.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I think i was about to vomit when i read this post- can you please remove your nose from SJW's arse, thanx

Pass the vomit bucket. :lol: Marshamallow, you honestly sound like you don't even want to consider any other causes beyond social class (which I agree is important) or at the least you sound quite defensive. What are the rates of gang violence in other ethnic / white communities of the lower class? Do you know? I basically agree with Monica Rules.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 04:17 PM
I think i was about to vomit when i read this post- can you please remove your nose from SJW's arse, thanx . World view?... more like Western view and even that isn't well rounded consisting of just the US and UK :rolleyes:.

SJW you know nothing about where i have lived and havern't lived. I live with a black african and lived for 3 years with a caribbean african, and not only that but i live in the west midlands which has the largest number of ethnic minorities outside of london and funnily enough even speak to them :eek: . The place where i work is probably split 50% white 30% asian and the rest is made up of east europeans and blacks. When speaking to these people you actually get a sense that they have first hand experience of what the media represents if not an overly dramatic way, and that saying "well white people commit crime" isn't actuallly an argument. On the HMP website it actually says 24% of the prison population is made up of ethnic minorities, now this could be another attempt by the media to have another go at ethnics or maybe there is actually 24% ethnic minorites in UK prisons:confused: . If this is accurate which it probably is, then with the UK on the whole having only 6% ethnic minorites its 4 times more than what it should be.

Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't

Bezz, Iím sorry do you seriously believe what you say, as infallible truth? Firstly lets look at your prison statistics. What are they actually telling you? Take a minute and actually think about those statistics (and by the way ethnic minorities make up 8% of the UK population at least according to the new citizenship test thingy). Minute up! There are various ways to interpret the stats. A question that popped up to me immediately was, well what proportion of the prison population come from low income areas and house-holds and how many come from middle-class Ė privilidged areas / households. Youíre likely to find, that the majority are from low income areas, and the vast majority of areas in the UK are NOT low income areas.

The prison population does not fit a profile of the general population, how on earth could you even assume this? I donít get it!!! :eek:

Secondly, do you believe speaking to 1 african, 1 afro Caribbean and a few other black people will give you a clear picture of the situation? For each of those individuals who may feel the same way you do, I assure you I can name at least 10 who disagree. My family home is in multicultural London, we used to live in Leytonstone where one of the reported teens was stabbed, and I have friends who live and come from Hackney, Walthamstow, Plastow, Stratford and so on from diverse ethnic backgrounds. Take it from an insider, the situation is not as simple as portrayed on the media. This is not a race, ethnicity issue.

On the subject of education, there is a simple fact that brings your argument into question. If you read earlier reports on the underachievement in education row, you will find that the focus of the debate was and is black BOYS (primarily of Afro-Caribbean households). You donít even have to do a major literature search read find articles on it. For example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/insideldn/insideout/series7/education_01.shtml

The target population was not black youths, but just black boys. Black girls have been performing fine for decades and decades. So, considering this, if the problem is a race one, why are there differences between girls and boys from the same race in performance? Answer me that one Bezz.

Typical media motives, have transformed what has been a problem affecting a small portion of the community, to a problem of that community.

Does that answer you question a little bit? If it doesnít read the linked article. But to be frank, the underachievement of black males in education is not fully understood, there are no answers yet as to a cause. But it cannot be a race thing, because as I said earlier in this thread the genome project found the only one gene differentiates races = skin colour. A racial / biological cause has effectively been rules out because of that finding and others.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 04:38 PM
Pass the vomit bucket. :lol: Marshamallow, you honestly sound like you don't even want to consider any other causes beyond social class (which I agree is important) or at the least you sound quite defensive. What are the rates of gang violence in other ethnic / white communities of the lower class? Do you know? I basically agree with Monica Rules.

:o

I have an opinion, which has been formed after analysis of theories and statistics and research (which is part of the module I study in university Ė ĎRace, ethnicity and Exclusioní). Itís a strong opinion because I feel strongly about race issues. I do consider other points of view, but if I see a weakness in the argument, Iíll address it. If that comes across as defensive, I have no problem with that, because I have found some of the statements made in this thread Offensive, ignorant and even moronic.

Tell me exactly how people can research directly ďthe rates of gang violence in other ethnic / white communities of the lower class?Ē How? There is NO settlement in the UK, especially in London with an exclusive racial population. Certainly within London, each borough appears to have a racial mix Ė part of the reason why the mayor has been keen to emphasis that London is a multi-cultural city.

Will tallying the number of murders of people of a certain race, by people of their own race give the best representation? Some crimes have been declared gang crimes on flimsy data, with enraged parents screaming out onto deaf ears that their children where not members of gangs. Does a person who stands on a street corner with friends in similar dress belong to that gang? What is the basis for the definition of a gang?

Again, Iíll say that much if not all that has been classified as black on black violence is a short sighted view of a much more complex phenomenon that spans different races and communities. Maybe the drug issue is the major issue. Iím not saying my opinions are corrected, but the evidence is there, and I havenít heard anything more convincing. If someone can offer that, Iím open to it.

And I was not Tossing SJWís salad :lol:, you should notice that I wrote world view in speech marks. I used her words not mine. And I donít see how thanking someone for their response equating to tossing their salad, I thanked everyone who responded to this thread for getting a discussion going.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I have an opinion, which has been formed after analysis of theories and statistics and research (which is part of the module I study in university – ‘Race, ethnicity and Exclusion’). It’s a strong opinion because I feel strongly about race issues. I do consider other points of view, but if I see a weakness in the argument, I’ll address it. If that comes across as defensive, I have no problem with that, because I have found some of the statements made in this thread Offensive, ignorant and even moronic.

No, you come across as defensive and dismissive because you sound like you've made up your mind and you don't want to consider other possibilities. That's just my opinion. I don't even agree with what Bezz said, but you want to say these are complex issues, and then at the same time it doesn't seem like you want to consider you don't want to consider anything but social class.

Tell me exactly how people can research directly “the rates of gang violence in other ethnic / white communities of the lower class?” How? There is NO settlement in the UK, especially in London with an exclusive racial population. Certainly within London, each borough appears to have a racial mix – part of the reason why the mayor has been keen to emphasis that London is a multi-cultural city.The point is, you don't know what those rates of crime are. Well, actually, a few people in this thread have already mentioned that you don't hear about "gang culture" in white communites (and I mean the lower-income communities). Now of course that doesn't mean they don't occur. You don't know. Yet you just dismiss this. The same way you dismissed this

"Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't"

There may not be communities in the UK with an exclusive racial population, but are you really saying that there are no communities with a racial majority? In any case, if not in the UK, there are certainly exclusively racial communities in the US. Yeah, the US is not the UK... but you are making it sound impossible.


And I was not Tossing SJW’s salad :lol:, you should notice that I wrote world view in speech marks. I used her words not mine. And I don’t see how thanking someone for their response equating to tossing their salad, I thanked everyone who responded to this thread for getting a discussion going.Okay. Whatever. I really don't care if you were or you weren't. It came across as if you were appreciating her "world view", because you agreed with what she said. I don't care to argue with you or anyone else... because in the end I don't know... You just seemed really biased right from the start... that's all I wanted to point out.

Apoleb
Apr 14th, 2007, 05:44 PM
what Bezz said, but you want to say these are complex issues, and then at the same time it doesn't seem like you want to consider you don't want to consider anything but social class.


So, what are the other factors that may come into play? Please explain.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:07 PM
So, what are the other factors that may come into play? Please explain.

I'm not a sociologist or actually a criminologist, so I don't know what the actual (or rather absolute) causes of violence are or where the most violence occurs. Do you? Do you know where it occurs the most among low-income groups? I'd say culture, but that's conjecture on my part. Someone mentioned rap music... that might sound ridiculous, but I'm sure it's not...

In any case, social class is certainly not the only thing sociologists look at. Do I really need to say what sociology studies? :scratch: Unless of course you are trying to tell me I have no fucking clue. Well, I never said I do *know*. Just don't act like you really know for sure that it's social class unless you can present anything other than a simple "Poor people are more likely to commit violent acts". Because I already know that.

Apoleb
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:25 PM
I'm not a sociologist or actually a criminologist, so I don't know what the actual (or rather absolute) causes of violence are or where the most violence occurs. Do you? Do you know where it occurs the most among low-income groups? I'd say culture, but that's conjecture on my part. Someone mentioned rap music... that might sound ridiculous, but I'm sure it's not...

In any case, social class is certainly not the only thing sociologists look at. Do I really need to say what sociology studies? :scratch: Unless of course you are trying to tell me I have no fucking clue. Well, I never said I do *know*. Just don't act like you really know for sure that it's social class unless you can present anything other than a simple "Poor people are more likely to commit violent acts". Because I already know that.

Yes, thank you, you have no fucking clue. If you don't have any other alternative explanation, then you're not one to dismiss those based on arguments and statistics. "Culture"? :lol: And then talk about simplicity? Culture is also a by-product of social class (among other things) and is extremely vague thing to refer to anything. I don't think people have said "social class" in a vaccum. They refered to such problems as drug use, low income, family breakdown..etc. Ofcourse, the deeper question is from where the "gang culture" has risen? I don't expect you to have any answer, and if you don't have any suggestions to make, then stay out of this rather than bring an empty critical view.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Yes, thank you, you have no fucking clue. If you don't have any other alternative explanation, then you're not one to dismiss those based on arguments and statistics.

I knew that's what you wanted me to say, but I never pretended I knew, so I'm afraid you are out of luck. :lol: Neither do you, so don't act like you know. :lol: Actually, I didn't dismiss it... I dismissed it as the only factor... and the only argument that has been posted here and proven is that "there are higher rates of crime in lower classes". That certainly doesn't prove that there is equal amount of violence in different ethnic communities and that it's the only factor at play. Or do you know something I don't? Didn't think so. Nor does it prove that increased gang violence in black communities (if true) is caused by differences in social class alone. Unless you give me statistics acorss different groups... all you are doing is speculating. Poverty causes violence, hence more violence in low-income black communities is because there are more low-income black communities? It's just bad logic basically.

Of course, the deeper question is from where the "gang culture" has risen? I don't expect you to have any answer or even suggestions to his.And you do? :lol: Do indulge me please. I never suggested that I know the answers, unlike some others here.

Oh, and culture is of course a by-product of social class, but it's not defined by social class. So what are you getting at? Whatever, I don't care.

Apoleb
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:43 PM
And you do? :lol: Do indulge me please.

Oh, and culture is of course a by-product of social class, but it's not defined by social class. So what are you getting at?

I have already given my opinion, as well as a slew of other people. I don't think anybody pretends to know the exact cause and explanation, but at least we're giving some explanations that partially explain the issue.

I don't think Marshmallow was trying to restrict everything into a single cause, but rather dismiss the issue as being racial at core (blacks being genetically inferior, or that it's a problem that should be of concern with the whole black community) .

Actually, I didn't dismiss it... I dismissed it as the only factor... and the only argument that has been posted here and proven is that "there are higher rates of crime in lower classes".

Right. I repeat that "social class" wasn't brought alone, but a long a whole group of possible causes such as drug use and family breakdown. And when you were asked to give a better explanation, you came with something as stupid and vapid as "culture." :haha: Clearly, you're no authority to dismiss anything on the subject. And I don't want to get into a debate with someone who has proven time and time again on this board that he can't get a straight point.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:50 PM
The point is, you don't know what those rates of crime are. Well, actually, a few people in this thread have already mentioned that you don't hear about "gang culture" in white communites (and I mean the lower-income communities). Now of course that doesn't mean they don't occur. You don't know. Yet you just dismiss this. The same way you dismissed this

"Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't"

:lol: Where does this come from? You haven't heard of the ASBO culture? Well, you don't live in the UK - but basically the term ASBO translates to Anti-Social-Behaviour-Order. Anti-social behaviour ranging from detruction to property, physical abuse and intimidation and basically the terrifying of communities. Some may argue that this is white gang culture, because the majority of people (all the cases I am ware of) given ASBOs are white. And youíll never guess, but they are from low income areas. Is this not further evidence to add to the case of low income areas and crime, as opposed to a racial basis? [. I might also add that i think ASBOs are LAMES, another short sighted intervention by the government that donít look at the core issues.]


"Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't"

This mentioned again? I have actually addressed it in other posts, which themselves have been ignored, but Iíll try to address it now. I have to emphasis this is my take on the issue, though based on some evidence of my own that I have looked at as part of my class. [And an emerging theory]

I think there is a historical element to the phenomenon. Black, and Asian migrants did not influx into the UK at the same time. I think it was, black Caribbean, south Asians and black Africans, and then oriental Asians is the chronological order, and now of course eastern Europeans and maybe middle-eastern people. The earliest groups to come, came it times of low economic mobility and high racial tension. Racially abused, and given the worst jobs (whatever their educational background) and worst areas to live (which had been bad, before they came). They were basically the lowest if the low. As time went on, economic mobility increased and racial tensions reduced. So for this later immigrants, even if they were and are located in the worst areas, they know that education is the key to economic mobility. Black African boys out perform black Caribbean boys.

Now here is where this emerging theory comes into play. Even though times have progressed, the black male has been told by society in various ways that he is bad/worthless. This stems from negative stereotypes etc that have built up from when black migrants first came to these western nations. People say this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy for black males living in these low income areas. Essentially, I think the messages given to black boys from a multitude of angles (not just within their community). Intrinsically not a race is still. Itís not complete but I think itís a possible factor.


There may not be communities in the UK with an exclusive racial population, but are you really saying that there are no communities with a racial majority? In any case, if not in the UK, there are certainly exclusively racial communities in the US. Yeah, the US is not the UK... but you are making it sound impossible.

So there are exclusively one race areas in the US that may have a high crime rate. Are these areas high income or low income? Either way, what can you really tell from correlations Ė not causality.

With respect to my dismissive nature in this thread. Maybe you donít get how big an issue this is, with far reaching implications. I cannot stand unfounded nonsense when it comes to big issues like this. What triggered this thread for me was the Prime minsters comments which thankfully cam under attack from various angles. He defined it as a race issue with insufficient evidenceÖ do you get thatÖ the PRIME MINISTER presented this idea that contradicts research evidence, that will mislead many and perpetuate negative stereotypes about a group of people that many in turn result in racist actions (least of all institutional racism).

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:52 PM
I have already given my opinion, as well as a slew of other people. I don't think anybody pretends to know the exact cause and explanation, but at least we're giving some explanations that partially explain the issue.

I don't think Marshmallow was trying to restrict everything into a single cause, but rather dismiss the issue as being racial at core (blacks being genetically inferior, or that it's a problem that should be of concern with the whole black community) .

Right-o. That's why he objected to anyone saying that it could be a problem in black communities as being ignorant (and you called it racist). I hardly think anyone argued it being a genetic problem, so I don't know what you are talking about there. And no, I haven't seen any explanations besides the poor logic of "poverty->crime" hence more "black crime". It's just poor logic.

Right. And when you were asked to give a better explanation, you came with something as stupid and vapid as "culture." :haha: Clearly, you're no authority to dismiss anything on the subject. And I don't want to get into a debate with someone who has proven time and time again on this board that he can't get a straight point.

That's why you keep responding to me. Clearly. If you don't know what "culture" means, that's not my fucking problem. I'm glad you think you are such an authority on the subject (because I certainly said I was!). Maybe you should get off that high horse and stop replying to me?

Martian Willow
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:54 PM
I just wanted to express amusement that a Melanie Phillips article in the Daily Mail is considered the most accurate on this subject. I will do so now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:)

Apoleb
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:54 PM
That's why you keep responding to me

Oh, I like to expose people, but not to get into long debates with some of them.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:56 PM
I just wanted to express amusement that a Melanie Phillips article in the Daily Mail is considered the most accurate on this subject. I will do so now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:)

Who is Melanie Phillips? :)

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Oh, I like to expose people, but not to get into long debates with some of them.

Yeah, sure, because you are a leading authority on criminology.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:01 PM
Who is Melanie Phillips? :)

See post 7 and 8 of this thread. I wish you and Bezz had read these articles earlier on.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:02 PM
See post 7 and 8 of this thread. I wish you and Bezz had read these articles earlier on.


No, I know that she is the author of the articles you posted. That's not what I was asking.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:08 PM
No, I know that she is the author of the articles you posted. That's not what I was asking.

She didn't write all the articles i posted, she only wrote one - based on exactly this issue.

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:10 PM
I think i was about to vomit when i read this post- can you please remove your nose from SJW's arse, thanx . World view?... more like Western view and even that isn't well rounded consisting of just the US and UK :rolleyes:.

SJW you know nothing about where i have lived and havern't lived. I live with a black african and lived for 3 years with a caribbean african, and not only that but i live in the west midlands which has the largest number of ethnic minorities outside of london and funnily enough even speak to them :eek: . The place where i work is probably split 50% white 30% asian and the rest is made up of east europeans and blacks. When speaking to these people you actually get a sense that they have first hand experience of what the media represents if not an overly dramatic way, and that saying "well white people commit crime" isn't actuallly an argument. On the HMP website it actually says 24% of the prison population is made up of ethnic minorities, now this could be another attempt by the media to have another go at ethnics or maybe there is actually 24% ethnic minorites in UK prisons:confused: . If this is accurate which it probably is, then with the UK on the whole having only 6% ethnic minorites its 4 times more than what it should be.

Also you still havern't explained why asian and Chinese immigrants who nine times out of ten live in the same deprived areas as blacks or at least did until they left managed to do so well in the UK and black people don't

I was going to write out a long winded reply to you but what's the point. It's tiring and fucking depressing, so I'll break it down s-l-o-w-l-y for you.

1) WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY "WELL WHITE PEOPLE COMMIT CRIME"?
You couldn't make more blatant that you don't understand social causes for the high number of ethnic minorities in prisons. Britain has been institutionally racist for decades, hell even hundreds of years, and there's many articles (which you would actually have to get off of your ass and bother to read) which show that white males get lighter sentences than black males for exactly the same crime. This is not even limited to the UK, in America a black girl gets 10 years for pushing a security guard while a while female gets probation for arson :weirdo:

2) And this may be hard for you to understand, but "ethnic minority" doesn't mean just black. I would like you to learn to differentiate between races and stop being so ignorant.

3) You subscribe to the stereotype that all black people are poor and worthless, so I'm not quite sure why I bother trying to make you see from a different point of view. Ethnic minorities in England have to work three times as hard just to be considered equal. A black person commits a crime and it's a "black person committing a crime". A white person commits a crime and it's just "a crime". Black people are more likely to be poor in England, not necessarily because they're lazy but because they're more likely to be overlooked for jobs. Poor people are more likely to commit crimes. People who commit crimes are less likely to get jobs because of their history. It's a vicious cycle that cannot be reasoned only by race. It's not that hard. It's not just about racism, but a whole load of factors including classism and bigotry from people like you, which is highly ironic.

Martian Willow
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:14 PM
I was going to write out a long winded reply to you but what's the point. It's tiring and fucking depressing, so I'll break it down s-l-o-w-l-y for you.

1) WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY "WELL WHITE PEOPLE COMMIT CRIME"?
You couldn't make more blatant that you don't understand social causes for the high number of ethnic minorities in prisons. Britain has been institutionally racist for decades, hell even hundreds of years, and there's many articles (which you would actually have to get off of your ass and bother to read) which show that white males get lighter sentences than black males for exactly the same crime. This is not even limited to the UK, in America a black girl gets 10 years for pushing a security guard while a while female gets probation for arson :weirdo:

2) And this may be hard for you to understand, but "ethnic minority" doesn't mean just black. I would like you to learn to differentiate between races and stop being so ignorant.

3) You subscribe to the stereotype that all black people are poor and worthless, so I'm not quite sure why I bother trying to make you see from a different point of view. Ethnic minorities in England have to work three times as hard just to be considered equal. A black person commits a crime and it's a "black person committing a crime". A white person commits a crime and it's just "a crime". Black people are more likely to be poor in England, not necessarily because they're lazy but because they're more likely to be overlooked for jobs. Poor people are more likely to commit crimes. It's not that hard. It's not just about racism, but classism and bigotry from people like you, which is highly ironic.

Obviously I am willing to bow to your greater understanding of this particular issue, but do you have any opinions on why it is that there are twice as many Indians than Pakistanis in Britain, but twice as many Pakistanis than Indians in prison? That can't just be about race and racism, can it? :)

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:15 PM
:lol: Where does this come from? You haven't heard of the ASBO culture? Well, you don't live in the UK - but basically the term ASBO translates to Anti-Social-Behaviour-Order. Anti-social behaviour ranging from detruction to property, physical abuse and intimidation and basically the terrifying of communities. Some may argue that this is white gang culture, because the majority of people (all the cases I am ware of) given ASBOs are white. And youíll never guess, but they are from low income areas. Is this not further evidence to add to the case of low income areas and crime, as opposed to a racial basis? [. I might also add that i think ASBOs are LAMES, another short sighted intervention by the government that donít look at the core issues.]

I never said there is no ASBO as you call it. I was talking about the prevalence of gang crimes.


I think there is a historical element to the phenomenon. Black, and Asian migrants did not influx into the UK at the same time. I think it was, black Caribbean, south Asians and black Africans, and then oriental Asians is the chronological order, and now of course eastern Europeans and maybe middle-eastern people.

*snipped*

So what are you trying to say exactly? That other minorities have had it better? :confused: :o

So there are exclusively one race areas in the US that may have a high crime rate. Are these areas high income or low income? Either way, what can you really tell from correlations Ė not causality.

I'm talking about low-income areas obviously.

With respect to my dismissive nature in this thread. Maybe you donít get how big an issue this is, with far reaching implications. I cannot stand unfounded nonsense when it comes to big issues like this. What triggered this thread for me was the Prime minsters comments which thankfully cam under attack from various angles. He defined it as a race issue with insufficient evidenceÖ do you get thatÖ the PRIME MINISTER presented this idea that contradicts research evidence, that will mislead many and perpetuate negative stereotypes about a group of people that many in turn result in racist actions (least of all institutional racism).

Maybe I don't get it. :shrug: Because I didn't see how Blair's comments were defining it strictly as a race issue or how he was saying that crime is *exclusively* a black problem. At least I didn't get that out of this comment - "The black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law-abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids" I only see him talking about "gang culture" as being a problem in the black communities. Whether it's more the case in black communites than other ethnic communites, I don't know. Call me horribly ignorant, but I'm not sure what exactly it is you find so fundamentally offensive about the comments.

cellophane
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:16 PM
She didn't write all the articles i posted, she only wrote one - based on exactly this issue.

Okay, article. Whatever. I know she wrote one of the articles for sure. That's not what I was asking anyway.

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Obviously I am willing to bow to your greater understanding of this particular issue, but do you have any opinions on why it is that there are twice as many Indians than Pakistanis in Britain, but twice as many Pakistanis than Indians in prison? That can't just be about race and racism, can it? :)

No, because I don't know. I am woman enough to say that rather than sit here and comment that Pakistanis are inherently problematic and need to sort out their culture when it is obvious I don't know what Pakistani culture is really about. :)

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:24 PM
Oh hell. Cellophane, i wrote why i found blairs comments offensive in the first post. From other responses it seems most people did too and they went on with the debate. ASBOs are the results of crimes otherwise the orders wouldn't be given, subsequent immigrants have not had as hard a time as the earlier immigrants - that's not even generally disputed, you find that in textbooks as fact.

The overwhelming issue has been treating this as a race issue when there was insufficient evidence. The problem itself is much larger than the 'killings' and so it makes no sense to ask one community to accept the bulk of the responsibility. It is short sighted as explained by Melanie. Whatever else is argued about in this threat, this last paragraph has been my position.

...

Martian Willow
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:31 PM
No, because I don't know. I am woman enough to say that rather than sit here and comment that Pakistanis are inherently problematic and need to sort out their culture when it is obvious I don't know what Pakistani culture is really about. :)

I suppose thats OK if you're not the Prime Minister. :)

SJW
Apr 14th, 2007, 07:51 PM
I suppose thats OK if you're not the Prime Minister. :)

Would you care to expand further?
You're far too witty for me :)

Martian Willow
Apr 14th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Not really, I was just trying to wriggle out because I thought it was a good answer. :)

Monica_Rules
Apr 14th, 2007, 08:44 PM
OMG someone agreed with me YEAH:) LOL!

Well this thread certainly has got heated.

I think everyone makes some good points and i think i may have changed some of my views but only slightly.

Someone brought up the whole black girls performing better than black boys in school, well thats also true of white people and the population as a whole if you look at GCSE and A level results, girls do better by about 3% i think, so thats just a basic boys vs girls thing. Girls in general just seem to give a shit at school more than boys, when push comes to shove girls will knuckle down where as boys don't.

I think i;ve heard something somewhere about the lack of a fatherly role in a boys life can have an affect on him, without a dad, boys have noe one to look up to and set and example for them.

Marshmallow
Apr 14th, 2007, 09:38 PM
OMG someone agreed with me YEAH:) LOL!

Well this thread certainly has got heated.

I think everyone makes some good points and i think i may have changed some of my views but only slightly.

Someone brought up the whole black girls performing better than black boys in school, well thats also true of white people and the population as a whole if you look at GCSE and A level results, girls do better by about 3% i think, so thats just a basic boys vs girls thing. Girls in general just seem to give a shit at school more than boys, when push comes to shove girls will knuckle down where as boys don't.

I think i;ve heard something somewhere about the lack of a fatherly role in a boys life can have an affect on him, without a dad, boys have noe one to look up to and set and example for them.

You have made some good posts, with non offensive phrasing. But as you have problably guess i DON'T AGREE :D

With respect to the girls though, they aren't just doing better than the boys, they are performing just like everyone else (overall averagely). It's only the Black boys, namely the black afro-caribbean boys who have been at the centre of underachievement issues.

The father figure thing though is interesting. But i'm not sure. I know of many misbehaving youths who have father figures there and perfectly well behaved individuals from single parent families. Maybe there is something in it though, but i doubt it's a very significant effect. ...

Monica_Rules
Apr 14th, 2007, 10:36 PM
LOL Like i thought you would agree :p

I'm not saying these points are right all the time just that they could be another factor added to the whole issue for some people.

Funny i mentioned knife crime in wales and then the next day some woman is charged with stabbing her 'abusive' husband to death:o

SJW
Apr 15th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Not really, I was just trying to wriggle out because I thought it was a good answer. :)

Part of me thinks you're being sarcastic but OK :)

Denise4925
Apr 15th, 2007, 07:49 PM
I never said there is no ASBO as you call it. I was talking about the prevalence of gang crimes.




*snipped*

So what are you trying to say exactly? That other minorities have had it better? :confused: :o



I'm talking about low-income areas obviously.



Maybe I don't get it. :shrug: Because I didn't see how Blair's comments were defining it strictly as a race issue or how he was saying that crime is *exclusively* a black problem. At least I didn't get that out of this comment - "The black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law-abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids" I only see him talking about "gang culture" as being a problem in the black communities. Whether it's more the case in black communites than other ethnic communites, I don't know. Call me horribly ignorant, but I'm not sure what exactly it is you find so fundamentally offensive about the comments.

Okay, you're horribly ignorant.

Denise4925
Apr 15th, 2007, 07:53 PM
Oh hell. Cellophane, i wrote why i found blairs comments offensive in the first post. From other responses it seems most people did too and they went on with the debate. ASBOs are the results of crimes otherwise the orders wouldn't be given, subsequent immigrants have not had as hard a time as the earlier immigrants - that's not even generally disputed, you find that in textbooks as fact.

The overwhelming issue has been treating this as a race issue when there was insufficient evidence. The problem itself is much larger than the 'killings' and so it makes no sense to ask one community to accept the bulk of the responsibility. It is short sighted as explained by Melanie. Whatever else is argued about in this threat, this last paragraph has been my position.

...

No matter how many times you say the same thing to cellophane and direct him back to the core issue he will come up with something else to deflect from reasonable logic. It's a never ending battle with him.

Bezz
Apr 16th, 2007, 07:54 PM
Well i ain't gonna drag this out any longer cos i think every argument has been put forward, so this is gonna be my last post on this particular race issue. :cool: (unless someone kicks off or says something stupid....try to resist sjw... i know its hard ;) .

There isn't one good reason why it appears black men are more likely to be involved in crime than men of other races, i get that, but its obvious why the government treats it as a race issue because it doesn't make any sense why it should be happening. I think there is an organisation set up by the government called trident which is dedicated trying to understand black on black crime. From the interviews i have seen on news 24 from people involved in this group they feel it is neccessary that it become a 'race issue' because they feel they can better tackle the problem then if it was just another organisation set up to stop crime.

What i don't accept is that there is no way out of poor communities for black people, even if it does take 3 times more work and effort (which i dont always think is the case) then people should be motivated to do that or it will just end up being a vicious circle. There are plenty examples of black people and young black men becoming succesful (and i don't mean famous), and it seems to me just like young white chavs are content sitting in thier council flats popping out babies and claiming benefits, there are young black people that just claim racism and believe everyone is against them so just sit back commiting crimes which gradually get worse in nature and taking no responsibility for their own lives.

The end :bounce:

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 16th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Bezz...where have you been? I miss playing you on xbox live...:sad:

Marshmallow
Apr 16th, 2007, 08:59 PM
Well i ain't gonna drag this out any longer cos i think every argument has been put forward, so this is gonna be my last post on this particular race issue. :cool: (unless someone kicks off or says something stupid....try to resist sjw... i know its hard ;) .

There isn't one good reason why it appears black men are more likely to be involved in crime than men of other races, i get that, but its obvious why the government treats it as a race issue because it doesn't make any sense why it should be happening. I think there is an organisation set up by the government called trident which is dedicated trying to understand black on black crime. From the interviews i have seen on news 24 from people involved in this group they feel it is neccessary that it become a 'race issue' because they feel they can better tackle the problem then if it was just another organisation set up to stop crime.

What i don't accept is that there is no way out of poor communities for black people, even if it does take 3 times more work and effort (which i dont always think is the case) then people should be motivated to do that or it will just end up being a vicious circle. There are plenty examples of black people and young black men becoming succesful (and i don't mean famous), and it seems to me just like young white chavs are content sitting in thier council flats popping out babies and claiming benefits, there are young black people that just claim racism and believe everyone is against them so just sit back commiting crimes which gradually get worse in nature and taking no responsibility for their own lives.
The end :bounce:

This post ain't so bad. *relief* :lol:

I think the bold is a good way to end it, but i'd insert the word 'SOME' which is implied anyway. Some white, some black, some asian ... blah blah blah. I think the most important thing to remember is just that every community is diverse. Essentially i feel racial profiling is useless, a person's race does not make them more likely to do or be anything, there are a string of complex factors at play, and i think social class plays a more significant role than race itself. I just really disliked the very general negative stereotyping of some statements, but accept that it is probably true of some members of each community.

I am worn out on this issue, i'm glad we had a chance to discuss it, and hope that everyone has maybe learned something however small from it. I have.

Thanx to all that contributed - MY LONGEST THREAD EVER!!! :yippee:

Denise4925
Apr 16th, 2007, 09:10 PM
This post ain't so bad. *relief* :lol:

I think the bold is a good way to end it, but i'd insert the word 'SOME' which is implied anyway. Some white, some black, some asian ... blah blah blah. I think the most important thing to remember is just that every community is diverse. Essentially i feel racial profiling is useless, a person's race does not make them more likely to do or be anything, there are a string of complex factors at play, and i think social class plays a more significant role than race itself. I just really disliked the very general negative stereotyping of some statements, but accept that it is probably true of some members of each community.

I am worn out on this issue, i'm glad we had a chance to discuss it, and hope that everyone has maybe learned something however small from it. I have.

Thanx to all that contributed - MY LONGEST THREAD EVER!!! :yippee:

Thanks Marshmallow, I've certainly learned a lot about how it is in England vs. the US with regard to race, politicians and the media. I've learned that there's basically no difference. You guys have almost, if not the same problems and issues we have here with regard to race relations, misunderstandings between white, conservative politicians and minorities (particularly minorities of African descent) and the mischaracterization of these minorities by the media. :sad:

Stamp Paid
Apr 16th, 2007, 11:58 PM
*cough*Britain*cough* :p

SJW
Apr 17th, 2007, 03:40 AM
Well i ain't gonna drag this out any longer cos i think every argument has been put forward, so this is gonna be my last post on this particular race issue. :cool: (unless someone kicks off or says something stupid....try to resist sjw... i know its hard ;) .

There isn't one good reason why it appears black men are more likely to be involved in crime than men of other races, i get that, but its obvious why the government treats it as a race issue because it doesn't make any sense why it should be happening. I think there is an organisation set up by the government called trident which is dedicated trying to understand black on black crime. From the interviews i have seen on news 24 from people involved in this group they feel it is neccessary that it become a 'race issue' because they feel they can better tackle the problem then if it was just another organisation set up to stop crime.

What i don't accept is that there is no way out of poor communities for black people, even if it does take 3 times more work and effort (which i dont always think is the case) then people should be motivated to do that or it will just end up being a vicious circle. There are plenty examples of black people and young black men becoming succesful (and i don't mean famous), and it seems to me just like young white chavs are content sitting in thier council flats popping out babies and claiming benefits, there are young black people that just claim racism and believe everyone is against them so just sit back commiting crimes which gradually get worse in nature and taking no responsibility for their own lives.

The end :bounce:

I think the only one posting stupidity in this thread in you. How is offering numerous explanations and saying "it's not that simple" stupid :weirdo: Even The Pov is just misinformed. You really have no clue, you tried to act like you know when you obviously don't. You try and paint all black people with the same brush and when you are called on it your back track. You have a problem and the sooner you acknowledge it the better, but I guess I can understand since there are a lot of West Indians in BMH and as a community we are very homophobic so I assume your experiences with them aren't ever positive. So yeah I see where your resentment stems from. However, I commend you on your least bigoted post thus far on a race issue, even if it took a few times trying. :)

SJW
Apr 17th, 2007, 03:53 AM
Thanks Marshmallow, I've certainly learned a lot about how it is in England vs. the US with regard to race, politicians and the media. I've learned that there's basically no difference. You guys have almost, if not the same problems and issues we have here with regard to race relations, misunderstandings between white, conservative politicians and minorities (particularly minorities of African descent) and the mischaracterization of these minorities by the media. :sad:

Denise it's different, yet the same. In America, racism is more overt, while in the UK certain people (as you can see) try and be too clever and hide their problems. The mischaracterization by the media is better in some ways in the UK and worse in others. I like to think people aren't as offensive (like Imus) in the UK, but we have less organizations and prominent figures to take a stand against the bs directed at us.

All in all, I would say that there's less tension in the UK, but you guys have more of a voice :shrug: